/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

AAACHOOO

No, gayrs is trash

The dust hasn't settled, the dust has barely been thrown into the air.

As underwhelmed as I was with IRyS, I still say she deserves to be higher than Pomu. Not 200k higher but definitely 100k tops.

>>6383214
If she made it to hololive, she totally deserved it, unlike those hololive reject whores

>>6383330
Sounds like you don't even watch Pomu

>>6383214
pomu isn't hololive, leave

I thought you were banned last thread falseflagging shitposter-kun?

>>6383330
and how so???

>>6383214
>Now that the dust has settled
The fuck are you talking about?

>>6383357
Look forward to another version of this post once Irys overtake Anya.

>>6383214
>now that the dust has settled
cease

>>6383214
Holy fucking mogged

>>6383214
No. All the Holo buff and animated intro. The performance was garbage, the singing mediocre and the model 480p. Mori's scuffed intro was leagues better, and that's when cover had about a year less experience prepping and debuting EN song chubas. I wouldn't be surprised if they were bot subs given vt knew days before that Irys' debut would be godawful and the sentiment seems to be universal.

Pomu may be low energy, but at least people believe she earned most of those subs. The same can't be said for EN, who are diaproportionately being carried by a combination of Gura, Mori, Ina and the brand that top tier JP holos built up.

It's outright comical, as agencies seem to somehow pick the safest, least entertaining en chubas in stark contrast to their colorful cast of overseas characters.

>>6383214
Get fucked, pomuniggers

>>6384187
Holy shit, the nijicope is real

>>6383214
Yes. Even a low tier holo like Anya is 10x more deserved than any of nijitrash

>>6384187
>Pomu may be low energy, but at least people believe she earned most of those subs. The same can't be said for EN
But Pomu is EN, just NijiEN. Why can't you people use the right language?

>>6383214
I like pomu

>>6384187
YWNBJ

>>6383214
yes totally deserved, at least iris has actual talent

>>6383319
Don't ever post while being this new

>>6383214
As much as dislike Niji EN, I would still trade IRyS for Pomu.

>>6383214
iris voice is really cute. too bad her model and rigg is ass.

>>6383214

>>6384369
What about Pomu with IRyS VA?

>>6383214
Irys gets subs because she's in Hololive.
Pomu gets subs because she's loveable.

>>6384344
>talent
She was trained, yes. She does not have talent

Who cares? And numberfags aren't people, so they don't count.
Pomu is doing well for her agency, Irys is doing about as expected. Comparing them accomplishes nothing outside giving fuel for bait, like OP.

>>6384344
>>6384449
Both of you are retarded.

>>6384467
>Irys is doing about as expected
Exceeding expectations by insanely unrealistic amounts. I'm convinced it's bots or paid sub farms. No chuba who met the lowest expectations people had for her could possibly attain this level of rapid incline through natural growth.

Either that or the hololive brand is completely worthless because those who support it no longer have any standards whatsoever and would sub to a loaf of bred with the hololive logo slapped on.

>>6384369
I know all the sheesh and the big pp can be quite cringe sometimes but just sit through it and maybe you will enjoy it, we all have flaws

>>6384878
The 2nd one is correct. Until Cover does something bad enough to tank the brand entirely I'd be surprised if new EN girls got less than 200k on debut from now on. Hololive fan culture encourages people to support every member, not just the ones they like, and that means a ton of (dead) subs immediately.

Let's just wait for her to actually sing an original song. or at least a full karaoke session, instead of just doing the most overdone anisong in existence.

>>6384878
>Either that or the hololive brand is completely worthless because those who support it no longer have any standards whatsoever and would sub to a loaf of bred with the hololive logo slapped on.
This is it, everyone saw Hololive label and instantly subbed.

>>6385032
>I'd be surprised if new EN girls got less than 200k on debut from now on
IRyS is sitting at 322k right now. she was at 318k >>6384403 like 20 minutes ago. a properly hyped up EN gen 2 is going to hit 300k before debut easily.

>>6383214
Compare anything Hololive has released that isn't a Suisei or Mori original song to Diamond City Lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnP0cKNPE04

It's fucking obvious Hololive's numbers are inflated as shit and not reflective of not only their talents but the company's production quality as a whole. Like all their music has amateur quality mixing that really underserves the singing abilities of their talents.

I'm still a fan of the talents but the company and their fanbase have been drinking way too much of their own koolaid and let it get to their heads without putting in the work. IRyS was great as Namirin but I feel legit bad for her that her rigging was so severely fucked up due to Cover's incompetence.

>>6385325
I like Diamond City Lights and am a big LazuLightfag, but it's a fairly generic idol-esque song, and Hololive has better than that. You should point to Virtual Strike or Trial and Error for actual top quality Niji originals NijiEN are on.

>>6385325
Why are Niji faggots always so salty of Hololive's success, to the point that will harass their talent and even graduate them like they did with Aloe?

>>6385021
>pp
Actually I’m not bothered by that at all. It’s just hard when you have so many VTubers to choose from. I didn’t end up liking Niji EN simply because of that. Also I don’t like IRyS either. For IRyS, her looks suck, her time slot sucks (for US), her singing is average, and she is way overrated.

>>6385325
Out of all the Nijisanji songs to pick you chose the most generic idolshit. I like it but come on man

>>6385593
That was done by the schizo NijiJP fanbase. NijiEN and the NijiEN fanbase has nothing to do with those crazy JPs.

>>6383214
I mean by sub logic, Anya > Pomu too

But we all know that is false. Pomu is great!
subs are not a talent indicator, Pekora doesn't have the most subs and she is the best by far

>>6385675
>Pekora doesn't have the most subs and she is the best by far
And here we ago again with the whole
>Pekora is an honorary Niji
Whats with Niji faggots and that bullshit anyway?

>>6384344
>does DOOM in her schedule
I wonder who did that weeks ago?

>>6385720
Holy projection batman. He's praising her, nowhere in the post does it say she needs to move companies.

>>6384270
>>6384311
>>6384306
The fucking assburgers came out. Kill yourself post-haste.

>>6385720
Niji actually rejected her at first, and now they think they have ownership over her success.

>>6384441
Based Departmen is calling for you.

>>6383214
I can't wait for the even more brutal mogging these Niji whores will receive when Gen 2 proper debuts.

>>6385325
Elira and Pomu hide their power level for that EN song, check out her JP singing.
https://streamable.com/zw5epz
https://streamable.com/m4qe3a

Elira's voice in particular is pure sex for some songs, I could listen to her for hours.

>>6385809
*Department.
Fuck. This is what I get for having multiple threads open.

>>6385720
>Pekora is an honorary Niji
No one has ever said this. Some of the Gen 1 girls that collab or collabed with Niji all the time? Maybe. But never Pekora.

>>6385521
Well this thread seemed to be comparing NijiEN to Hololive and I assumed most people here have no exposure to any Nijis besides NijiEN.
You're right though, it's not like it's a super good song but it has actual idol-level production quality while Hololive releases shit like the HoloEN Country Roads cover or Gura's original song or literally all 3 of Kiara's original songs that have production errors all over.
Like, if Diamond City Lights popped up on Spotify it's something I could see myself actually enjoying listening to, while Hololive's music is largely just riding on the popularity of the talents with the cheapest production possible. Mori and Suisei pump out high quality content every time because they're perfectionists that take an active role in the production process of their works, and some individual songs like Okayu and Towa's and Red Heart are legit bangers but Cover has really low quality standards it seems like. Azki is a great singer of course and I feel kinda bad over how she's so mismanaged. She was a legend in the vsinger/utaite community and yet has lost relevance as Azki, it probably eats away at her how bad Cover wasted her talents.

Idunno, feel free to call me a tribalfag or a schizo or whatever, but I get way more excited for Niji song releases than Holo ones despite one being explicitly music-focused, which is a shame. Watame deserves way better than the mixing she got on her most recent song, she's a great singer.

>>6385325
Jesus Christ, are Niji faggots always this pathetic in their copping?

>>6383214
Deserved? No. I think any amount of subs before you even debut are undeserved, whether it's 1 or 1 million. I've never really cared about the hype building around subs so I tend not to watch any debuts and will randomly tune into a stream weeks afterward and decide if I like what I see after they've hit their groove and have figured out their thing.

gen 5 had over 100k before debut, any subs earned without LITERALLY doing anything are not earned. it's "I like brand X, I click red box". it's not a gauge of talent.

>>6385593
>>6385664
Don't forget the schizo HoloJP fans who write happy to see SEX going far away from their idols. Or most importantly, the fact that she herself was menhera and dealing with her mom's sickness and her abusive father at the same time.

>>6385859
Holy fucking cope
Is this just Cope: The Thread?
Are all Niji threads legit like this?

>>6385859
You're not wrong, but I think a lot of the problem is that Cover doesn't seem to care about how good the songs the girls put out independently sound (ironic, since Anycolor is more hands off in general). The songs they attach their name to directly (SSS, the songs for Bloom, etc.) tend to be pretty good, IMO. Stardust Song is still probably my favorite between the 2 companies.

>>6385964
This is not a Niji thread. This is a bait thread.

You can tell Holobronies are /v/kiddies because the only things they know how to say are cope, seethe and dilate as evidenced by this thread.

>>6385859
I love LazuLight and Diamond City Lights but there really could have done a better job recording the song. They should have had Elira and Pomu do retakes, they don't sound nearly as good in the single as they usually do.

>>6385917
Nijicope

>>6386020
>The songs they attach their name to directly (SSS, the songs for Bloom, etc.) tend to be pretty good, IMO.
Don't forget Just Follow Stars. That's such a banger. It feels like listening to a male Love Live.

>>6383348
This. She passed the audition so now she can use paved road made by her senpais

>>6385664
Even then the NijiJP fanbase weren't the ones who were calling her a whore, that was Holo unicorns who found out she had a boyfriend. NijiJP fans were just sending her death threats for blabbing about Chitose. They're still retards but that's the truth. At the time of Aloe's graduation the Holo unicorns were happier to see her gone than anyone else. It was only when the more empathetic EOPs came in with HoloEN that the fans started regretting what was done to her.

>>6386020
That's a good point, I think Cover is capable of putting out good music when they try but according to Kiara they have to self-fund/self-produce literally all their music and merch and everything else. Cover provides them basically nothing in terms of financial support. Nijisanji operates mostly the same, I'm not sure why there's such a disparity in talent-produced content, but part of it might be that Holos are just busier in general and don't have the time to be as hands-on with their various simultaneous projects.

>>6386165
Pomu's vocals in it are actually fucking terrible lol but that's just a credit to the producer that it sounds a lot better than it otherwise should. She said she was sick at the time they recorded and she had a very limited amount of time in the rented studio so she had to do it in like just a couple takes.

>>6383214
How about one more joke NIJIIIIIIII?
what do you get when you shit up /jp/ for years and /vt/ for months?

YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE

>>6386215
>NijiJP fans were just sending her death threats
Holy shit, the cognitive dissonance is real

>>6386276
How is it cognitive dissonance? I wasn't defending them retard. Can you even fucking read you fucking SEAMonkey?

>>6386276
Read the whole fucking sentence. The "just" refers to the motive, it isn't meant to downplay the seriousness of the death threats at all.

>>6383330
Eeeeeeeeh, her singing (which was supposed to be her main selling point, btw) felt pretty soulless. Like she's hitting the proper notes, but she's being too stiff about it, and it makes her sound kinda flat.

>>6386276
>SEAmonkey anti can't read full sentences
Sasuga.

>>6383385
>mods
>ever doing anything to protect Nijis
This is the "Hope Pomu gets cancer and dies" thread, anon. It's what Hololive would want.

>Nijifaggots still copping that their entire EN expansion already got mogged by a single Vsinger in a day
Go back to Japan, you might still do better then, but even thats rapidly changing.

>>6383214
Pomu didn't make it while the other one did. Pomu should be thankful she managed to leech off of Hololive's brand even for a bit.

Well, just make a bigger brand then

>>6386361
At least one mod cares and does punish them when they're online, but it feels like most don't.

>>6386181
They got a bunch of subs before debut, and after debut aren't even the best singer. Literally subs because of a brand, not talent.

>Make a Holo graduate
>Try to change to narrative later
Least you could faggots do is take responsibility.

I know this is a bait thread but NijiEN fans are pretty happy with where they are. Management lets them collab with whoever they want and they can talk freely without worrying about offending unicorns. The smaller chat/community feels a lot more relaxed and makes the talents more willing to do impromptu stuff like guerilla collabs. If I just wanted to watch HoloEN I'd watch HoloEN. Not every streamer needs Gura numbers to be successful. Being able to stream full-time and make a living off it is success enough.

>>6385593
Like you people are harassing Pomu right now? Ironic how in JP, it's the Nijis who are the drama queens, but in EN, the Holos attract all the drama, while the NijiENs have been 100% drama-free and positive ever since their debut.

Maybe that's why these anti-Niji threads keep popping up. Holotards can't stand people who aren't as drama-obsessed as they are, so they keep attacking the NijiENs to try and kill the wholesome atmosphere they've created.

Reminder: The faggots who say IRyS has no talent and her subs are undeserved are the same exact faggots who are making threads trying to shit on NijiEN for having less subs than IRyS. They don't care about Hololive or Nijisanji, they just want to see your reaction.

>>6386566
>Holotards can't stand people who aren't as drama-obsessed as they are, so they keep attacking the NijiENs to try and kill the wholesome atmosphere they've created.
I think this is legitimately true. People tried to (and occasionally still try to) push Finana being hated by everyone, and it was very clearly them trying to treat her like NijiEN Kiara. I think some of them even liked the other 2, they just didn't know how to function without a hate magnet in the group.

>now that the dust has settled

Glad to see we have /v/-tourist trash shitting up the catalog along with the usual garbage.

>>6386589
well she's on pace to pass Azki any day now despite being much worse at singing, is it deserved?

Remember when tribalfags tried to brand Walfie as a "traitor" for drawing Pomu a few times. That was funny.

So does anyone have a nickname for OP? We've already given one to Marine Shizo and "The Greek" . Shouldn't "dust settle" guy get the same treatment?

>>6386664
It's not Irys fault Cover's management made azki eat shit for years.

>>6386731
Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain the "dust has settled" thing is more than one person. It should get filtered at this point though. Make it turn into "I'm a shit-stirring faggot," or something.

>>6386763
Are her subs a reflection of talent or branding? It's not talent. Even Towa mogs the shit out of her. No, it's not a competition, but sometimes talent isn't always reflected in subs.

> Now that the dus

Learn better material

>>6386789
>"I'm a shit stirring faggot"
That's a bit too broad of a name for here (not that I'm complaining. It's pretty funny sometimes) Maybe "Dustfuckers" or something?

>>6386318
Even japs were disappointed about her being pushed as a vsigner when she doxxed herself

I don't know if Niji-antis realize this, but most NijiEN fans are either current or former Hololive fans that either 1) got tired of the same five girls and wanted to see someone new, or 2) want potential new collab partners for HoloEN. You can tell by how many Hololive references get used in the chat (bottom left, yabe, even Yagoo get referenced once), and the simple logic of 2434 having barely any EOP fans, so of course most of NijiEN's fans are gonna come from outside the company.

So basically, HoloEN fans are attacking "NijiEN fans" (a.k.a. their own kind) as "revenge" for stuff that NijiJP fans did, even though there is zero overlap in those audiences, and they never even experienced any of those things firsthand, since they're blocked from 5ch. They're schizos burning down their own homes for a crime someone else did to another person entirely.

>>6387023
TL;DR Fandoms are retarded and hate themselves while simultaneously loving themselves. That right?

>>6387023
I'd add 3) Came to Hololive for non-standard idols/idols in all but name and got pushed out by 2021 Hololive becoming more idol-like, but yeah, pretty much. Outside here NijiEN fans (especially NijiEN only fans, rather than general Niji fans) is just barely not a circle inside of Holo fans/former Holo fans on a venn diagram.

>>6387023
>So basically, HoloEN fans are attacking "NijiEN fans" (a.k.a. their own kind) as "revenge" for stuff that NijiJP fans did

This is good behavior. Holochads don't know how to lose. Niji elitists deserve the boot.

Any hololive fan who associate themselves with Nijisanji deserve to ridiculed and shunned from the community. (You) are the problem.

>>6387023
>They're schizos burning down their own homes for a crime someone else did to another person entirely.

NijiEN fans will have to carry the heavy burdens of their ancestors. You are now a part of the problem. The problem of evil in the world. The problem that is Niji elitists scum who belong in the trash.

>>6387420
>Holochads don't know how to lose.
It sounds like you're calling them sore losers when you word it like that
>Any hololive fan who associate themselves with Nijisanji deserve to ridiculed and shunned from the community. (You) are the problem.
If they did leave, it's probably because the community was getting really unpleasant to be around. It seems like Holofags are the ones starting all the fights and drama here, yet constantly accuse Nijis of doing the same. No one likes a hypocrite, you know.

>Elitist
We should enforce the lurk 2 years before posting again desu

>>6387023
Too bad the NijiJP fanbase permanently poisoned the well witht their elitism and NijiEN will forever be seen as the failed experiment of muh number 1 vtuber company

>2views apply to Nijisanji and only 100 view indies get in
>people with talent or proven track record of big hits apply to Hololive
How do we reverse this trend? I'm sure 100 view indies could do well in Hololive too. Also I am seeing a lot of salt over IRyS having a successful past life. It must be 2views that are mostly mad since they feel helpless that Cover won't look their way.

one day Pomu will be gone and you'll feel bad for not enjoying Pomu because you felt "loyal" to a vtuber agency.

>>6387674
It's ironic, considering it's getting posted in a thread designed to attack NijiEN for no reason

>>6387591
Why do you write like such a chuuni? You have to be over 18 to use this website.

I never found nijifags to be elitist. Most of the ones on /vt/ are cool and the ones on /jp/ are just /jp/ being /jp/.

>>6387733
>Pomu will be gone
Soon I hope, maybe then you faggots can stop shilling this Holo reject.

>>6388044
Not going anywhere!

>>6387976
Yeah, there are definitely elitists in /jp/, but /jp/ Holofags are elitist against Global too. Fairly, as far as I'm concerned. Hololive and most of it's fans are fine (even EN), but Globalfags are definitely cancer.

>>6388088
I'm sure the cancer disagrees, pal

>>6388127
Good thing she doesn't have cancer!

>>6388154
Whatever it is, just go meet Calli soon already

>>6388089
/jp/ is massively elitist in literally everything. It was my home board from 2008-2015 so it's hard to get mad at them when you know how they work.

Man I feel sorry for Pomu, she tries so hard but she will never be as popular as someone from hololive

>>6383214
By the very definition of the word, no

250k people signed up for a person they hadn't ever heard or seen before.

>>6388282
Than she should have joined Hololive then, instead of being a fanboy of the losing competition.

>>6388367
She tried and got rejected

>>6388367
Sorry, Hololive only accept an already popular person for numbers.

>>6388210
A collab with Calli would be neat, good idea anon!

>>6388406
That may not have been a bad thing. Pomu has freedom a trail to blaze. All she would get out of hololive is more money and more eyeballs.

NijiEN is successful for a foreign branch and does pretty well in SCs since. I don't worry about their competition from Hololive, that ship long since sailed, I worry about them losing to the 10 NijiEN vtubers that will be released with a year. Startups might eat a piece of their pie too.

>>6385750
Reminder, 2016 Doom is called Doom as well. Which is it, the new or original one?

>>6385859
>>6385325
>>6384878
BEHOLD THE LEGENDARY NIJICOPE!

The NijiENs seems like fine girls to me actually, at least they are no Vshojo whores, however, I will not watch them until they collab with my Holos and do the typical courtesy mutual ass kissing with them.
What? They think they are too cool to ask for a collab with them?

>>6388618
>get called a leech if you ask for a collab
>get called stuck-up if you don't
it's all so tiring

>>6388442
Probably one of the few reasons for me to watch Calli. That and Korone.

>>6388521
>it real

>>6388618
Sure, only if they collaborate with HoloJP.

>>6388731
See this is the type of shit that I was talking about, no wonder the other faggots keep calling you Nijifaggots elitist.

>>6388487
Lets be honest anon, nijiEN will not go any bigger than this. I love the girls and been following them since their debut before niji, but we all know nijiEN's fans are from the same bowl as holo's. They are basically treated as another branch of holoEN. That's why
>I worry about them losing to the 10 NijiEN vtubers that will be released with a year.
this really will stagnate their growth unless the new talents bring something new that's supass any thing the current and future HoloEN do or any ENchuuba.

>>6388768
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting

>>6383214
so 270k is current brand power of hololive even for a disappointment, thats pretty good.
Im surprised Pomu is growing this slowly though

>>6388853
I was actually over 300k before she even started streaming.

>>6388731
The funny part is all 3 of NijiEN would vibe better with HoloJP vs the 5 because they can actually speak the language instead of HoloEN's 1.5 (Ina is the .5, fuck off Mori and your canned responses)

>>6388618
It's far better for the NijiEN to grow for now before they latch on to collabs

Remember this is something that nearly drove Ame to open hostility towards Gura

She what now?

This is your brain on tribalism.
Dont watch shit because BRAND, watch people who are interesting. Holos, nijis, indies, RE:ACT, tsunderia, whoever you find interesting.

>>6383473
Anya is hololive, so it's fine.

>>6384435
No thank you.

>>6383214
Yes, it was. She did have to pass the auditions and they DEFINITELY won't be employing someone like fucking Finana, who didn't even have fucking streaming experience.

>>6384878
No joke, but I would buy Hololive bread if I could.

>>6383214
The boost of HOLOLIVE.

>>6385021
Dude, I actively watch like 20 vtubers. I don't have the time to watch nijien.

>>6385184
Ah yes, let's completely push out of mind the fact that 10k people subbed to the Lazulight girls for their association with Nijisanji when all we knew about them was one line from their preview.

>>6385178
She did sing an original song.

>>6390520
I have my hands full with HoloJP and Yashiro(shut up, he's good). I don't know where people find the time to follow so many.

>>6388521
Shut up faggot

>>6388325
Cope.

>>6385593
No shit. The NijiEn fanbase didn't exit back then.

>>6383214
Of course, she's hololive, clearly that puts her in a better position than a hololive reject

>>6385675
Anya is cute.

>>6390584
You are the one who is doing the "cope" here , anon.

>>6385917
Botan agrees with you

>>6388949
>Remember this is something that nearly drove Ame to open hostility towards Gura

>>6383214
Lazulight are just a bunch of zoomers and one doesn't even have stream experience either, lmao. IRyS had years of buildup to be able to join hololive and no amount of nijicope can deny that.

>>6388406
Therefore her position is deserved.

>>6389756
It's far too late. People's lives are so devoid of satisfaction that picking sides in entertainment is all they have. Sports teams, DC vs Marvel, Xbox vs Sony vs Nintendo, and of course all the vTuber companies.

>>6390673
Yeah. The most hostility we've gotten is Ame justifiably getting mad at a bunch of weirdos pressuring her or hang with Gura while she did her own thing, and not wanting to just be known as "Gura's Girlfriend" neither if which are directed at Gura herself. You don't typically start a podcast with someone you secretly hate. you just don't talk to them, like a sane adult.

>>6388853
She got that niji debuff and they gave her a mediocore model

>>6387733
If he leaves, I wouldn't notice.

>>6390564
Cope

>>6389756
Holo and niji are interesting, more than any other corpo out there

Anons, Can you stop arguing and just watch how she will do without making fun of other people Oshies?

>>6390564
Seethe nijibitch

>>6388487
If she joined hololive, she could off quit her office job.

>>6390888
This is just the shitflinging tribalism containment thread, don't take it personally

>>6390888
Too much sanity for this board, I'm afraid. I'll give you the routine >Go back before someone does it unironically

I don't even like NijiEN but I defend them to the death since I hate HoloEN.

>>6390900
Doesn't she stick with her office job for the health insurance at the moment?

I don't even like HoloEN but I defend them to the death because their success makes nijiniggers seethe

>>6390984
Yes. I guess it's possible that Hololive offers health insurance, since they give them a salary, but I doubt it's as good as what Pomu's OL job offers.
Insurance companies have to give good insurance, right?

>>6385783
Kys aussie/chink. YWNBJ SIMP.

>>6390888
Ina is a whore.

>>6387645
Please stop shitposting with my oshi. Thank you.

Kiara is absolute trash tho

>>6391076
She could of made enough money that she could pay out of pocket.

>>6391350
Why pay more when you can pay less, anon? It's that simple. All she does at work is watch vtubers anyway, it's not unbearable.

>>6383214
Completely. She got years of experience and skills. Should be around Suisei tier. Her model is a huge debuff. Just hope for future rework.

>>6391372
Didn't know that. Hopefully she gets better and not need that job soon.

>>6391350
You underestimate how bad burger healthcare is about these things.