/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>60649393
I thought it was everyone else that was against graduations because when vtubers graduate they join Vshojo

>>60649393

>>60649477
The discourse you see from vshojo fags on here is that the concept of graduations is somehow unacceptable though

>>60649393
people who are pro-graduation see vtubers as disposable and the characters as unimportant
people who like the characters want their favorite characters to exist for as long as possible and to not disappear because some japanese tard in a suit decided that she shouldn't exist anymore

debuts and graduations are idolshit and infantile. They should use terms from similar industries and instead discuss resignings and termination of contracts

>>60649618
The person remains the same though, if they leave a corp there's no reason fans wouldn't stilll be fans, in fact this is literally what happens.
Besides, shit is never just the person anyway, else there'd be no point to vtubing. It's always been a sort of low intensity acting but with a lot of yourself put into it.

>>60649723
but why though, it's not like shit makes a difference at the end of the day. it's basically just a sort of cultural meme for them and is by all measures just convention. a name something is called.
Unless of course you don't want graduation streams to be a thing either.

>>60649828
they have to abandon their recognizable brand and legacy, years of content and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of investment into assets and content for no good reason
literally every corpo graduation causes a huge stink and drama and it's all because some middle manager decided to suck at his job
there is no benefit to graduation culture for the viewers or the vtubers themselves, only their owners benefit

>>60649393
The people talking about graduations are the ones whining that the person behind the graduated avatar came back somewhere else. The whining I saw was "why did I get so emotional over a graduation then?" and "what was the point of it if she's just gonna go to VShojo?" The dinks who don't get it are the ones who support the industry that does it. VShojo fans don't care.

>>60649393
>Hololive poaches small corp talents
>This is a good thing
>Vshojo poaches big corpo talents
>NOOOOOOO THIS IS RAPE OF THE CULTURE

When a vtuber graduates, that is the ego death of the vtuber. They die and no longer exist. Reincarnations are not the same person.

>>60649393
If following the culture is what got you here, of what use was the culture?

>>60650293
They don't have to follow the culture though? If graduations didn't exist then the lineup of VShojo would include Coco, Rushia, Nina, and Mysta. Not Kson, Nazuna, Matara, and Kuro.

>>60650113
>there is no benefit to graduation culture for the viewers or the vtubers themselves, only their owners benefit
Indies graduate far, far more often than all corpos, the concept isn't exclusive to companies

>>60650258
Hololive gets people through auditions

>>60649393
it's the fans of the new vshojos (i.e. the ex-nijis) who're realising that graduations and all the emotional shit around them are mostly faked for money, most of which goes to the company anyway. It's a scales falling from the eyes moment

>>60650385
yeah because they're actually quitting, not just changing or leaving their management

>>60649393
It's their cope for losing Silver, Nyanners, and Vei....yet still somehow couldn't shake Zen off

>>60650456
The point is that graduation culture is followed by indies who have no reason to follow it

>>60650731
did you even read my post

Over here, we just call it reincarnation

>>60649393
>>60649528
>anon fights ghosts

>>60650784
Then you're complaining about something else instead of graduation culture, the ownership of IPs isn't related to it and quitting the company normally would be the exact same

>>60651007
well there isn't really a good word for the pointless graduations so i can see how we got that confused
i'm not against graduation terminology or whatever, just the way vtubers are forced to behave around the management-swap-graduations and how the viewers react to them

>>60650428
So does VShojo, just ask them, they actually believe Haruka was the result of the auditions they held 2 years ago.

>>60649393
I'd never noticed that as a particularly defining trait of vshojofags.

>why do you guys hate this dumb shit that japanese businessmen forced upon us
because it's bad. hope that answers your question

without idolshit culture 99% of your favourite vtubers wouldn't be there in the first place
remember where "oshi" and "gachikoi" comes from

>>60651852
cry about it

>>60651852
pretty sure vtubers existed for years without idolshit

>>60651957
vtubing wasn't as relevant before it.
the success and impact of Hololive on vtubing as a whole including the idol culture elements is undeniable

The thing is vshojofags or whoever it is you're talking about or making a boogeyman out of don't actually get or understand what it is they're arguing for. What they actually want is for the nakanohito to own their own IPs, and then corps can just hypothetically keep hiring and firing and rehiring these same people while those people keep their IP/model.
They literally don't get the point of graduations and probably don't get the point of vtubing either.
As pointed out ITT, indies also stick to graduations despite not being beholden to any corpos since the japanese still understand that the point of vtubing is the anonymity and the creation and playing of a character, of course with the understanding that it isn't wholly just playing the character and is also a lot of putting yourself into it, but still the focus is on the character.
Yes, some have RM accounts and some do 魂活動, but when they graduate on a given character, they're moving on from that character completely, most don't even have much qualms with scrubbing everything entirely.
Theoretically, graduations could just be called soubetsukai instead and it'd be the same exact shit. Hell, even the girls in vshojo could theoretically graduate from their current personas to join another corp, even if they don't call it that.
The thing is the western scene is way too comfortable with the idea that it's really all about the nakanohito and that the vtubers are just avatars; probably why they do shit like face reveals and flesh streams on their main accounts

>>60652272
>wasnt as relevant
that's a good thing
>impact of Hololive on vtubing as a whole including the idol culture elements is undeniable
undeniably bad and panders to the mentally ill

>>60649393
>Why do vshojofags on this board
stopped reading there
catalog baitfags =/= vshojofags

>>60652873
based

>>60652844
okay. graduations are still retarded though

>>60653029
Why? the whole point is to disassociate from the current persona while also making it an event you can get money from while also referring to the event with an allusion to actual graduations that imply moving on to better things. (instead of calling it a retirement or quitting which have different implications, especially with the japanese words for those)
For the people who actually get the point, it's a win for everyone involved.

Wasn't there literally a thread just yesterday from a Ninjisanji fan crying about how he felt betrayed because Nina and Mysta made money on their graduation and that was supposed to be forever? Like I don't give a shit how the corpos end their relationship with talent, but it clearly matters to parasocial weirdos. If my oshi leaves vshojo she'll probably stream sometime in the next few days like Nyanners did. No big deal.

>>60649393
Twitch vtubing overall is a cargo cult version of it. They don't understand why it works, hence don't know what gears and cogs do what and don't know what to modify or what is a good idea to tamper with from the JP formula.

It's like giving a 5 year old a piece of pizza, giving him the ingredients and asking him try making one. He might think "maybe it doesn't need sauce" or "let's try putting jolly ranchers on it" or something. That is what the abjectly-ignorant Western Twitch scene does. They are emboldened thinking they're right by other people (twitch normalfags who had no interest in vtubers prior to EN blowing up) being similarly ignorant and thinking "you know what actually I like that pizza with American cheese slices and jolly ranchers on top I don't give a shit about your """proper""" pizza techniques" - they say that, because they don't know what the real deal actually is to begin with and even a shitty half baked fucked up ruined version of it is still good to them because they don't know any better.

>Inb4 but ironmouse and nyanners predate Niji/Holo
Yeah. They did. They also were literally 2views for years as well before HoloEN blew the scene up. They suddenly started a drastic incline within a month of HoloEN exploding and turning the scene on its head. They only are successful because they happened to be there already when holoEN took off and people were desperate and hungry and curious for more English speaking vtuber options in addition to holoEN. Guaranteed IM's rise was from randos googling "English vtubers" after hearing about Holo Myth and her coming up. Nobodies like Artemis and Uto got hundreds of thousands of subs just for fucking existing and speaking up during that couple months window in late 2020 that holoEN blew up and Gura got a million subs in under 2 months. Most EN chuubas on twitch do not predate EN to boot. They owe the meta existing at all to holoEN, not vshojo. They just don't want to contemplate trying to emulate Hololive standards because they can't do it, they don't know how to do it, or they think they can do it "better" by talking about IRL matters or not changijg streaming style whatsoever from garden variety ethot. But they actually are putting jolly ranchers on their pizzas. They always were.

>>60649393
will never watch any vshojo chuuba on principle

>>60649393
What do you mean? We love graduations coz it means they will end up joining us in a few months

>>60652873
you just want to watch filthy crass whores with anime avatar while I want to watch hard working cultured and comforting idols that caters to their gachikoi (me)
we just aren't the same

wahhh POST TITTIES

Reminder that if any of you cried or at least felt bad for this you are a fucking retard

Because grads are sad and I don't watch V to be sad

>>60656121
If their identities and affiliations just don't matter why don't the vshojo girls graduate, then. I wouldn't cry at a graduation as I think that's stupid but I would be sad for the loss of all char identity and the social connections they had. It's like if a very-well-liked dude playing James Bond quits, or like a former LotR or Star Wars actor dies. It'll never be the same and there is no chance of getting even a bit of that old greatness back from that char again.

>>60653391
>the whole point is to disassociate from the current persona
yea that's the bad part. chuubas don't want to do that and the company just throws the avatar in the trash. what a waste.

>>60649393
Because Vshojo wants the old popular character for themselves duh, they know they could've got way more money if they had "Coco" or "Rushia" in their corpo instead of "Totally not Coco Kson"

>>60654080
nta.
Nyanner wasn't a vtuber until she jumped on the bandwagon when Myth debut. Before that, it was only pomf and whatever the fuck she was doing.

GRADUTION NO MORE
AND ALSO NO DEBUTS

>>60649393
one position is pro talent and the other position is pro corporations, that's basically it
I'm not passing judgement, I don't give too much of a shit about it honestly but that's the truth

>>60654080
>before HoloEN blew the scene up
why lie about something like this?
mouse started inclining in march 2020 after she started collabing with projekt melody, and holoen auditions weren't announced until late april, and neither that or the actual myth debuts seem to have had any effect on her steady growth throughout 2020 and into 2021
https://twitchtracker.com/ironmouse
https://twitchtracker.com/projektmelody
if anything, it looks more like holoen was a reaction to melody blowing up in the west and proving that en vtubing could be successful than the reverse
you could argue that melody wouldn't have become a vtuber in a world without holojp clips going viral on en youtube, but attributing that explicitly to holoen is nonsensical
>>60657023
nyan's vtuber debut was in june 2020, so after holoen auditions but before the debuts: https://twitchtracker.com/nyanners/streams/39235937616

>>60656682
but chuubas literally do want to do that. Look at Ao's multiple past lives for example. she didn't go to a corp after some of them, she went indie again.
Look at Natori and her reincarnation.
I'm with the dude calling western vtubing a cargo cult, since it seems westerners don't get that the whole point is to break away from the character completely.
At the end of the day the character isn't them, but they also understand that the character is also the point. Which is why the japs like starting things anew

>>60657598
this is basically what all of /vt/ conflicts boil down to. this board is pro-corporate, whenever someone expresses that talents are more important, they're the enemy. see kson for the biggest example.

>>60657875
some talents wanting to start fresh doesn't mean it's good that it's forced upon so many. don't be silly.

>>60649828
>The person remains the same though, if they leave a corp there's no reason fans wouldn't stilll be fans
No you see if they leave, it's just "not the same." They can act the exact same way, have the exact same voice and mannerisms, play the exact same games, do the exact same content and to some "people" there will be this irreconcilable "difference" between the vtuber they loved in Company and this new "other" vtuber.
Because vtubers are "characters," you know. Even though they'll be exactly the same across multiple different identities. Even though kayfabe is little more than set dressing and aesthetic in 99% of cases. It's all just a character, and they changed the character which means I don't like them anymore!!

Seriously.
The number of people I've seen on this board telling me that they can't/won't follow their oshi into the next life for some vague and ill-defined nothing-reason is baffling.

It really is like they care more about the company than the talent.

>>60651852
Just because vtubing has idol culture in its DNA doesn't mean we can't evolve and discard the elements that no longer serve a purpose in this environment.

>>60652844
>As pointed out ITT, indies also stick to graduations despite not being beholden to any corpos
You refuse to see the extremely obvious difference.
Indies only graduate because that's the terminology established by corpos early in the game.
When an indie graduates, they are doing so either because they are being forced to abandon their identity after joining a company, or because they are quitting entirely.
If they are quitting entirely, "graduation" holds no meaningful difference from "quitting" or "retiring." It's only a difference in terminology.

Graduation should be reserved for an actual end of activity. Not "I wanted to leave my company for something else and now they're making me do this tearful goodbye for a last burst of superchat revenue" before starting back up again a couple months later.

>the western scene is way too comfortable with the idea that it's really all about the nakanohito and that the vtubers are just avatars
Yes I do enjoy treating these people as people instead of as anime characters. I think that's for the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I43s0oFbbk

>>60657598
not only a generalization but also wrong since indie jps graduate anyway.
it's a cultural difference and also a semantic misunderstanding. graduation is explicitly moving on from the current persona, that one neoporte girl went indie and kept her model and channel: didn't call it a graduation. Met moved from 774 to vspo: didn't call it a graduation.

>>60658264
meant for >>60657879

>>60657879
kson is literally fleshtuber on verge of being a whore with lame jokes
why would anyone like her now

>>60656558
>If their identities and affiliations just don't matter why don't the vshojo girls graduate
What the hell kind of question is that
They don't graduate because why the fuck would they

Even if they wanted to, say, change their avatar and completely rebrand, they could do exactly that. They'll still have all their accounts and be able to explain exactly what's happening to their audience and have a smooth, painless transition.
This has happened multiple times before in the indie scene.

>>60658391
see what i mean. the same woman he watched for a year and a half said she likes vtubers more than the dorito/rainbow and he's actually angry about it. it's mind boggling.

>>60658264
>that one neoporte girl went indie and kept her model and channel: didn't call it a graduation. Met moved from 774 to vspo: didn't call it a graduation.
Yes, this is how it should always work.
That anon is entirely correct. It's pro-corp vs pro-talent.
You're either fighting for the talents' rights or defending corpo control.

>>60658582
she literally doesn't act the same
and yes I enjoyed her character and its interaction with other Holos
what she does now to me is just like watching different person
in general vtubers aren't just live streamers with anime avatars that western caricature understanding of it, in reality it's so much more with variety of cultural layers that westerners can't comprehend

>>60657956
>>60658041
But it literally isn't forced, people just do it anyway. you basically assume people only do it because corps want to have control over their IP/created characters but indies graduate into indies all the time in the 2view jp scene.
And really it's not like japanese people doing it find it at all a bad thing since as I've already explained they literally prefer it that way. Not wanting to be bound to a past persona if they're moving onto other things, understanding that they're not just regular ass streamers but are vtubers: necessitating a level of acting and incarnation of a model, and the importance of anonymity and the separation of chuuba persona and nakanohito. It's a natural consequence of vtubing finding its genesis in a culture that is autistic about ephemerality and mono-no-aware.
And really there's no downside for anyone involved except if you're the tribal sort of corpfag that would be mad at the nakanohito becoming a vtuber in a rival corp.

>>60658857
Ironically the only real difference is that she's less crude and crass now. She made a lot more dick and butthole jokes in Hololive.

>>60658857
>she literally doesn't act the same
One of her most notable running jokes is that her tail is a buttplug. They even turned it into merch.
>what she does now to me is just like watching different person
Because you're retarded.
>it's so much more with variety of cultural layers that westerners can't comprehend
It absolutely isn't, you brainrotted weeaboo.

Kson is the same as she ever was.
Henya is the same as she ever was.
Mikeneko is the same as she ever was.

because its retarded on its face. The company holds on to a property that it cant monetize and the one person who can monetize the property leaves to attempt to build up somewhere else. In simple economic terms, it would be a more efficient model if talents who step away from the company would be allowed to purchase or rent their models from the corporation according to how much value they can expect to gain from using it.

>>60659052
>Mikeneko is the same as she ever was.
I don't remember her past persona collabing with a male live on apex and smugly rubbing it off the faces of her fans with it when they questioned her decisions.

>>60658980
>But it literally isn't forced
But, it is.
>indies graduate into indies all the time
>Not wanting to be bound to a past persona if they're moving onto other things
If this is what they want, there's no issue. This same thing happens in other spheres of entertainment, e.g. changing pen names, starting a new band, etc.

But when you're graduating and dropping a character because you're leaving a company, that's not your choice. It's a very, very rare thing that a company allows a talent to take their leave while retaining their identity.
And part of the reason they do that is because it makes leaving a bigger risk. Lots of talents will stay in their company because having to start over is scary and uncertain.

>>60658774
yeah but that's the thing, if they'd decided to move on from the models instead then that would be a graduation, which is my point when I say people are misunderstanding semantics. Plus the IPs were originally the corps they were just sold to the talent in Patras case and sold to another corp in Met's
And it's not like someone dead set on leaving a corp would have that much qualms about leaving the persona behind if they already want to do so in the first place. Conversely some indie who gets into a corp wouldn't and aren't at all hesitant to graduate in order to incarnate another character, even ignoring all the previous points I made about the cultural background as to why the japs are fond of doing it to begin with

>>60654080
'Twitch vtubing' have their roots in shit like secondlife and other virtual online sims, and they were avatars decades before anyone decided what a virtual youtuber was. Vshojo talents like zen arent rejecting eastern idol culture, they were never part of it.

>>60659450
I disagree that they're "fond" of this system.

It's just what's normal and expected. They might think it sucks shit, but しょうがない and they don't want to be the one who rocks the boat.

>vshojofags
I call them Twitchfags.
They hate talent that have become popular without belonging to the existing twitch streamer community.

>>60658041
>It really is like they care more about the company than the talent.
It's not "like" that, it is that, full stop. If Hololive for instance had a gamebu moment and every single talent went on strike, their fans on this board would call them all dumb whores who are making the company look bad.

>>60649393
They're against being forced to retire a character when you move on from a company, it's less about the graduation and more about the balance of IP

>>60659532
It baffles me how alergic vtubing fans are to males, yet are totally fine with one pretending to be female.

>>60659830
>They hate talent that have become popular without belonging to the existing twitch streamer community.
No we don't

>>60660058
If Kson had done what they are doing now with the dragon model I would be very disappointed.
t.ex-tatunoko

You niggas write too much
Graduations are stupid in the sense of “retiring a character”, you are crying because of a product left. The person behind it didn’t, as long as it’s not a full retirement, there’s no reason to cry over some fucking 2D character, fucking weebs

>>60659421
I legitmiately don't see what the problem with that is supposed to be. The nakanohito ISN'T the vtuber, the dude you're arguing with has a point, there's an entire layer ontop of the nakanohito that you derive the identity and entertainment value from when it comes to vtubing.
Coco and Kson aren't the same characters and that's why he perceives the difference, and Coco and Kson aren't exactly the person who plays them either. The role is supposed to be an important part of vtubing, else what'd be the point? It'd just be shitty avatarfagging then, like the twitch whores that jumped on the bandwagon with cheap models when myth came out.
>But when you're graduating and dropping a character because you're leaving a company, that's not your choice.
I mean unless you were fired, it literally is isn't it? To leave I mean. It's hard to draw a comparison since vtubing is so sui generis but seiyuus that quit from the role of a char don't get to keep their characters either. Nakanohito are auditioning for roles and if they quit they also quit said roles: which is graduation.
It's different for corps that supposedly hire indies in a sort of talent management style like vshojo since they aren't making roles to be filled out (if I understand things correctly). I don't get why that sort of model can't exist with corp models that have roles and necessitate graduations, or why only one of either should exist. Or hell, why one is even supposed to be better. It just seems like differing convention

>>60660371
It's more akin to an actor leaving one show and going to another.

>>60660337
>esl
>spelled the name wrong
nice try. fuck off

>>60660058
Retiring an avatar is more than just losing the design too, it also means loss of history and environment, sometimes even permission to interact with the same people that they once did in any public way.

>>60660399
>The nakanohito ISN'T the vtuber
Yes they are.

>I mean unless you were fired, it literally is isn't it? To leave I mean.
To leave, yes. To retire the character, no.

>seiyuus that quit from the role of a char don't get to keep their characters either
Scripted characters in a fictional work are not the same as an assumed identity.

>>60660449
yeah but the actor also isn't allowed to contact their old cast at all

>>60649393
They're retarded and also hypocrites. They won't say anything about Kson needing to leech off a Hololive member to sell meet and greet tickets

>>60654088
Based. You don't turn your back on your family. Fuck Nina, fuck Mysta, fuck Zaion and fuck Coco.

>>60660617
It sounds sad and awful until you realize you're talking about people that continue to be friends irl and still spend more time with them irl. It's a sad thing for the fans mostly, but you have to realize vtuber life doesn't equal irl life

>>60660617
You do realize that’s stupid corporate shit right? Like for example, Nyanners had a couple of history with the group, shitton of collabs and when she was gone of the company, she could still collab with them and they did. Arguably, I think that, whatever cry about someone leaving because of your feelings attached to it, but why do fags act like that person died or even defend cooperate decisions when it’s the root of why this industry sucks at some points, shit it’s like making the small things a spectacle for people to be shocked when it’s probably just regular shit or mundane shit

>>60660561
actually he just transliterated it in kunreishiki romanization

>>60660958
>stupid corporate shit
Yeah and that's what Vshojo is against, which people aren't seeming to understand

>>60660777
How much you want to bet she's trying to get her to quit and join Vshojo too kek

>>60661038
even if that were the case, it's no excuse for the esl. wrong pronouns means it was machine translated.

>>60660678
>Yes they are.
no they aren't, i watch the vtubers and I don't give two shits about their roommates. Maybe it's cause I just treat them as entertainment and not a literal parasocial substitute for socialization.
>To leave, yes. To retire the character, no.
If they really wanted to buy or negotiate for the rights to the IP they could. Patra did. Ikeda Shuuichi could conceivably buy the rights to the character Char Aznable from Bandai Namco if he really wanted to.
>Scripted characters in a fictional work are not the same as an assumed identity.
hence my point about the comparison being imperfect due to vtubing being sui generis, as well as the preceding points about vtubers not being their nakanohito

Nobody cares about seething failed "persons" behind anime avatar.
I only love Hololive, its brand and japanese glorious culture

>>60661116
I don't care.
She's a popular Vtuber, but as RM she's just a 3views.

>>60661681
this but unironically, I'm just a fan of Hololive. I don't give two shits about their roommates or the "ethics" of graduations or whatever, to me the whole thing is like a CGDCT anime.

>>60661572
>I don't give two shits about their roommates
>>60661681
>I only love Hololive
>>60661828
>I'm just a fan of Hololive. I don't give two shits about their roommates

Mental illness.

>>60662046
Unironic parasociality has more of a claim to mental illness methinks.

>>60662149
It is not parasocial to recognize the talent behind the avatar as someone with value and deserving of respect.

>>60662233
What does that have to do with their avatars? You can still do that right now

>>60662607
Their avatars are their public identity, their content and their legacy and they should have the right to claim it in perpetuity.

At the very, very, very least, a reincarnated vtuber should be allowed to say "yeah, that was me."

Sometimes they might want that clean break, but in many cases, having to tiptoe around the past life is just a nuisance.

>>60662046
It's not mental illness, it's very good corporate propaganda. They actually think that they are watching a unique product of the corporation rather than the people inside adlibbing and just being themselves.

>>60662233
I guess that's why we both hate Niji huh? On a serious note, parasocial just means perceiving a relationship with someone you don't actually know.
I'm not gonna pretend like I know shit about the nakanohito or that they know anything about me, nor do I give a shit enough to find out. That's what I'm getting at when I mean I'm just a fan of the vtuber, I literally do just like the character and the box they're in, already being fully aware that the character also has a lot of the actor put into it.
I also don't get why graduations are supposed to be so much of a sore point for the talents or why some benign vtubing convention is supposed to devalue them or withhold respect for them.

>>60662873
The japanese do that all on their own, corps aren't forcing them to not refer to their past incarnations as themselves, most japanese vtubers just literally do not want to associate with past incarnations, else they wouldn't graduate from those personas in the first place, which is the point.
This is a country that still understands the importance of anonymity, on twitter they're all pseudonyms. Their main discussion method is anonymous BBS boards.

>>60663194
>The japanese do that all on their own, corps aren't forcing them to not refer to their past incarnations as themselves
That must be why all the graduated ENs publicly make claim of their past lives. It's just a Japanese thing!

Oh, wait

>>60661681
>Nobody cares about seething failed "persons" behind anime avatar.
That's not the issue. I dont care about what samuel l jackson does in his daily life, but I want the guy in Snakes on a Plane to be the same guy from Pulp Fiction.

>>60662902
idk senpai I try and watch the average western indie just be themselves and they're way more derivative of each other than most of the corps I watch. (vspo, holojp, nijijp)

>>60663411
I'm gonna be honest I don't know much about the EN scene but it's probably what the anons have already mentioned ITT about western vtubing being a cargo cult.

>>60663517
>I watch different people and they're different from these other people
Yea?

>>60663692
reading comp bro, I'm saying those vtubers being themselves are derivative of each other, meaning they're samey. While the vtubers that are roles being played are less derivative

>>60663846
Sounds like a sample size issue.

>>60663980
maybe

>>60649393
I literally do not care about idol culture.

>>60663665
No, it's not. Nobody is stupid enough to abandon all their previous work just because "well, that's how the Japanese do it!"

There's a very clear reason why they can only ever reference their previous activity with metaphors, winks and nudges.

>>60649723
This is so stupid, you shitters are irrelevant this is what made vtubing popular in the first place shitters coming in and demanding things to be changed should be hanged.

>>60650113
>owner benefits from graduation
How do?

>>60664331
Not from graduation, but from the idea of graduation, the threat of graduation. Listen, obey, or lose everything you've built up.

>>60664164
the fact that they aren't that char anymore?

>>60651957
>kizuna ai
Literally an idol
And holojp is the biggest vtubing agency, the term oshi, graduation, debut, generation and all other terms are popularised by them, so yes it is the very foundation of this Industry.

>>60664465
Name one other industry where people can't stake claim on the work they've done.

Btw, Maeda Atsuko is still Maeda Atsuko, even after she graduated from AKB48.

>>60664435
but people graduate of their own accord though?
literally how the fuck is "the threat of graduation" supposed to benefit, say, NijiEN management?
They've reclined so hard /because/ their talents left. There were the firings too but that's separate

>>60652873
>undeniably bad and panders to the mentally ill
You don't seem to like it though

>>60664602
Voice acting, it's also worse there since VAs actually do get replaced.

>>60664707
>voice actors don't get credit

>>60664331
>>60664616
Graduation carries a huge risk with it, this risk causes some people unhappy with their current situation to put up with unfavorable conditions. The company can get away with more nonsense because of this.

>>60657755
Myth debuted with 60k+ CCV
In case of IM it was holojp that made her incline, because they started to pop off at the start of 2020 internationally.

>>60657879
Vshoujo is a coorporate bootlicker

>>60664616
No, niji talents left because niji reclined so hard that the talents were willing to risk complete irrelevance rather than stick around. The difference between being nijien and being an indie is that indies get the 3D they paid for.

>>60664857
Are people saying kson was never Coco now? people are still watching the new vshojo poaches because of the nakanohito right? Again, graduation is about retiring the character.
>>60664941
WHAT huge risk? other corps still know who you are even if you graduated from another corp, and you audition with that experience too. Don't tell me you unironically believe people who graduate from a corp aren't allowed to use their name in their resume. Not to mention listeners also know who you are.
Plus if you're graduating into indiehood or graduatuing from indiehood then it doesn't matter.

>>60659986
>trust me this will happen
except we got example like taiwan yab or pretty much in any yab most people would just that the company is at fault not the member before got proven wrong, so what makes you so sure if something like gamebu happened then people would side with the company now ?

>>60664435
>vague shit
If you want to use it as a threat it is called a termination, graduation implies that they left on good terms companies might misuse it that's a different issue but you are fighting a boogyman here.

>>60664941
>this risk causes some people unhappy with their current situation
Ignoring nijisanji since it's a black company, the benefits hololive gives are so fucking retardedly huge that you would have to be insanely greedy to ask for more, best of all is that you can enjoy all the benefits while doing literally nothing like Gura and Ayame. This is why there are a grand total of 2 graduations in 5 years

>>60665338
Anon... that example happened more than three years ago, when the community was still in its infancy. Things are different now.

>>60665313
>Are people saying kson was never Coco now?
>people are still watching the new vshojo poaches because of the nakanohito right?
Not all of them. Part of that is bizarre tribalism and "it's not the same," but part of it is also that some fans aren't as connected to the scene as others and just don't know their favorite vtuber came back.

And again, they cannot say "yes, that was me behind that character."

>WHAT huge risk?
It's not just about recognition. It's also about ownership of legacy content.
Do you think the ad revenue on Coco's channel still goes to the talent? Did the money from the sales of the plushies Sana designed go to her?
Probably not. Because they belong to the company.
Did you make an original song under the company? Well if you leave, it's not your song anymore.

>>60665524
This isn't a conversation about which company is better or whether or not it's "worth it" to graduate from a specific company or whether or not a given talent would be likely to do so.

>>60665871
>it's not about recogition
then why give a fuck about graduations? again, I mentioned it all the way back here >>60652844
what you really are arguing about is IP ownership.
Even fucking oricon charting singers still have their album publishing rights be owned by the likes of king or sony or whatever. People like Taylor Swift or full indie singers are the exception.
It really seems like you're just some sort of utopianist, but really, if there was no point to nakanohito joining vtuber corps, or for singers to join record labels, or for idols to join an agency, etc. etc. they fucking wouldn't

>>60665551
>another trust me
among those yab, rushia yab is one of them and people were quick to assume that Cover punishing Rushia for having male chat showing up because le evil idol culture until Cover make a statement that they basically don't care about talent's private matters

>>60666011
yeah in actuality the thread is people getting mad at boogeymen and exaggerating the ills of something they dislike, which they dislike because of some nebulous perception of it

>>60660449
In a proper world
>Actor no longer wishes to be part of the show they're on
>Make arrangements with showrunners, writers, other actors, etc to get taken off
>Follow through
>Leave show
>Occasionally use those connections made elsewhere as part of future endeavors

vs if acting worked like vtubing
>Actor no longer wishes to be part of a show they're on
>Make arrangements with showrunners, writers, other actors, etc to get taken off
>Follow through
>Leave show
>Get expensive plastic surgery to change your face so you no longer look the way you did while on that show
>Get your name legally changed
>You're not allowed to publicly talk about the show you were on
>Other people still working on the show can't interact with you publicly for as long as they continue to work on the show

And that's why graduations are retarded

>>60666359
Twitter tourists were mad at cover, but they don't matter. Everyone else dogpiled on her.

>>60666339
I said it's not JUST about recognition, speedreader.

>Even fucking oricon charting singers still have their album publishing rights be owned by the likes of king or sony or whatever.
Publishing rights are not IP rights.

>>60666495
but vtubing isn't acting in movies, the roommate isn't who people are watching, it's the vtuber.
when the RM wants to leave, corps can't just replace the RM with someone else. gamebu and kizuna set the precedent for that.
hence, graduations.

>>60666535
>Everyone else dogpiled on her.
her unicorns got mad at her for "betraying" them isn't the same as "defending the company and blaming the talent"

>>60666692
>when the RM wants to leave, corps can't just replace the RM with someone else. gamebu and kizuna set the precedent for that.
Yes, because people care more about the talent than the character.

>>60666828
I was mostly referring to the aftermath where the typical Hololive fan started to slander her. Remember that Flare rape thing they made up?

>>60666604
yeah and that's why I gave Taylor Swift as an example, she had to rerecord her shit since her old label owned her first six albums. People still listen to her since she's still Taylor Swift, people will still follow the roommate since they're still the same person irl. Graduating is just an amicable form of that.
And honestly what would be the incentive for a corp to not only create their own chars but also give it away for free if the talent leaves? Holofags shitpost about this boogeyman scenario all the time but that would literally just incentivize getting in for clout and getting out asap. It'd be different if the corp was the type that just takes indies as is, but when you're literally creating the character and model I don't see how the hell it isn't the best course of action to retire it when if the talent graduates.

>>60666850
Maybe, but the character isn't nothing. Why do you think Sio has worse views as Yue? Why does Nayuta have more views as Azki? Why do kson and mike have worse numbers?
You can't just chalk everything up to corpdroning while saying it's 100% only the roommate that people care about in the same breath

>>60666902
>typical Hololive fan
you mean her anti and her ex unicorn that become her anti ? she is playing with fire and got burned, what do you expect when someone pandering to unicorn that hard got caught interacting with males behind their back ? and you're moving the goalpost now, the history proves when shit happens until further evidence comes out, people would assume it's the company who is at fault not the other way around like your baseless assumption claimed, you can stop now or you want to cope again with "things are different now"

>>60667564
No I mean random dudes on /vt/ and twitter. To call every single post talking shit about her a scorned former fan is a gross exaggeration. The vast majority are just general Hololive fans.

>>60667776
The vast majority of posts on twitter were supportive (in the wrong way which is why she even did the stupid shit later)

>>60651852
facts

>>60667776
>>To call every single post talking shit about her a scorned former fan is a gross exaggeration. The vast majority are just general Hololive fans.
>everyone who initially support her are mostly tourist, and it's not an exaggeration, trust me
>also most of the anti post are not just anti, majority of them are just general Hololive fans, trust me
thanks for the laugh i guess

>>60667424
>Why do you think Sio has worse views as Yue? Why does Nayuta have more views as Azki? Why do kson and mike have worse numbers?
This very thread has multiple people saying "I like the vtuber, not the person behind it." Some people out here really do just refuse to follow their favorites once they leave the character they're used to.
Some people in the audience will just miss the memo. But some people will find out and decide they no longer like that person for some ambiguous reason.

Fuck's sake the amount of time I've seen retards on this board say "no, I will not watch XX because they're streaming on Twitch now"
Actual insanity

>>60665313
>WHAT huge risk?
The chance that their reincarnation will not be successful. Streaming isn't like a regular job where you just quit and get a very similar job at another company if you don't like your current one. And people still avoid doing that because it carries risk. If you're an unhappy corporate vtuber but also making enough money to pay the bills, graduating may mean that you will never be able to be a full time streamer again. That is a risk many aren't willing to make.
>>60665524
This is basically Kson's whole argument for the industry adopting talent IP ownership. Companies that provide a large benefit to their talent will see no change because the talents want to be there. The ones that mistreat their employees will have to stop doing that if they want to survive.

>>60668334
>Companies that provide a large benefit to their talent will see no change because the talents want to be there.
Unless they can mind read people they can always get someone that will get in and drop out as soon as possible, you can't see a dud like laplus while auditioning where she has an stellar debut but drops most of her shit later. It doesn't benefit anyone but chasers, and the rare exception like kson where she was retarded enough to be the only graduation in hololive other than Sana who legitimately stopped vtubing as a whole

>>60668747
>Unless they can mind read people they can always get someone that will get in and drop out as soon as possible
So?

>>60668924
I personally do not want that kind of person even as a viewer, if you want that then I seriously don't think you should watch company vtubers

>>60669110
You already have several of that kind of person though.

Phase Friend https://www.twitch.tv/matoimiia is seriously thinking about making a Sonichu model for CWC

>>60668924
well if I'm a fan of the company and their talents and the box they have then I don't want bad actors to hurt them, just simple protection of things you like.

>>60669466
You are a fan of them but you don't trust them to weed out people who will be a bad fit for their brand?

>>60669405
Tabs

>>60664613
in a perfect corporate world, AKB will force her to undergo facial and voice surgery and have her name legally changed after her graduation.

captcha: 48MMW

>>60669557
They have duds even now, they would have more with that kind of policy

>>60671497
No they wouldn't, the duds would leave like you said.

>>60649393
They're used to twitch culture.

>>60672679
You forget that hololive isn't nijisanji and that you can't afford to have duds if you get one group a year at most

>>60680281
facts

>>60681101
Why

>>60649393
Because they have a lot of talents that had to go through graduation. Should be simple enough to understand why they might not like it, right?

>>60651296
The auditions were a joke, gunrun literally brags about poaching talent from other agencies. The only thing vshojo cares about is poaching "big" talent and keeping ironmouse alive

>>60684678
>gunrun literally brags about poaching talent from other agencies.
proof?

>>60684855
verbal. he does it at parties.

>>60685075

>>60685100
honk honk

>>60684855
Next thread i promise in 2 weeks

>>60649393
they don't care about vtubing or culture or heritage. the talent freedom marketing era was a joke and they're just reduced to being the gabage dumpster at this point and doing it with no class basically kicking a man while he's down (niji)

>>60685394
>kicking a man while he's down (niji)
Niji is not a real person, unlike Nina and Mysta.

Not a single graduated corpo vtuber deserves her corpo model back, not a single one. Besides that, if they get it back they would use it for onlyfans or to sell it after retiring

>>60649393
it's not just vshojofags, but everyone. it's a stupid practice to cut corners with the paperwork needed to hand over the model and name's rights

>>60685945
if only they knew how horrible and weak a lot of the contracts are. I'll bet that most of the time they can't keep anything because of threat of being sued by the company, not because of any contractual stipulations.

>>60649393
>vshojofags on this board rail against the concept of graduations
Proof?

From what I gathered in this thread, its acceptable to call Vshojo a bunch of: grifters, whores, doxfags, poachers since they want to move away from "idol garbage"? Good to know

>>60687746
This but unironically

>Imagine being a western nobody complaining that your irrelevant opinion matters to a japanese industry you have not worked in years before people cared about your twitch thottery.

>>60687746
>move away
Nobody gives a shit about what they want to do, unless they try to make enemies out of other people, which they did.
>they want to move away from "idolshit"
They use the terms like debuts, oshimark, do concerts and take a lot of things from idol culture which is fine they are adopting it in the way they like, hololive has done the same you can't compare a holo to an actual idol there is worlds of different between the two of them.
The problem is taking advantage of the culture but talking smack about it, or the people who adopt it.
They are public personalities anything a vshoujo member does reflects on the company they can't just say shit and not expect consequences twitchniggers don't seem to understand the concept though.
Calling talents of other agencies "slaves" "coorporate garbage" "bound" just means you are shittalking them you can't expect to be loved by the other party after you do this shit.
Nobody would have given a shit about the failed audition thing if vshitshow didn't make a big deal about "talent freedom" and being better then other corpos while not even offering a fraction of what a holo can achieve.

>>60658041
>>60649828
they don't interact with the same people, which can be a substantial difference.

I only watch big indie and Vshojo streamers because after seeing the pain that Coco, Rushia, Pikamee, Mysta, and Nina fans had to go through due to graduation culture I never want to risk experiencing it myself. I still sometimes watch Nyanners, and she still gets to be a pink cat. She still gets to talk about her time in Vshojo, and she still sometimes collabs with Vshojo members. It would have felt awful if leaving Vshojo meant she had to get a different name, different model, could never talk about her time in Vshojo, and couldn't even collab with Vshojo members when she felt like it. I don't dislike Hololive or Nijisanji vtubers and it's always fun to see Vshojo or indie vtubers I watch interact with them. I just don't want to get too emotionally attached to a character and corporate friend group that will permanently disappear if the vtuber simply decides to change companies.

When vtuber quits, we just memoryhole backstabbing slut, unsub and erase pics, vods on the computer.
Westeners, especially vshojofags, can't understand this. Then we choose a new trustworthy oishi from fresh gen

>>60688955
Isn't this basically what they did with the 3 that left?

>>60688955
Sad when you love the brand more than your oshi.

>>60688955
You chose a company. The company is your oshi, just admit it.

>>60688955
based holochad
Hololive culture is what makes talents attractive and successful in the first place

>>60689149
>>60688897
>Isn't this basically what they did with the 3 that left?
Nah, on Twitch you're able to suggest streamers your viewers can watch when you're offline. Mouse still suggests Nyan and Zen still suggests Vei and Silver. Nyan has collabed with Mouse and Haruka after leaving. She has also raided henya and henya has raided her back. And /vsj+/ still discusses Nyan and to a lesser extent Vei's streams, they don't really like Silver but posts about her don't get deleted. You can also still post Nyan, Vei, and Silver emotes in any Vshojo members chat and your message won't get deleted and no one will attack you for it.

>>60666495
thanks for breaking things down

>>60688955
this

>>60649393
>ignorance of culture allegations
Wild that you think we give a shit, corponigger

>>60688955
Surely this can't be true

>>60688955
Sociopath moment

>>60689351
the "oshi" only exists because of the brand retard. Just look at kson, I hate this bitch while I still love Coco. You being unable to tell the difference is why vshojofags are looked down everywhere

Very few chuubas are able to mantain their essence after leaving an agency, an none for sure are from the western spehere

>>60694337
mental illness

>>60694337
I still follow Kson so I know how full of shit you are.

>>60694379
>>60694393
don't you have a discord to administrate?

>>60649393
Because of graduations, nobody gets to use the best vtuber model in years (Zaion Lanza)

>>60694337
this is a condition known as "being a third world redditor who considered himself a coco fan because he watched meme review and 3Ds"

>>60649723
Find a new hobby, faggot.

>>60694602
It's called "not being an ameritard who is too used to lazy thot behavior"

>>60694695
lazy is the last word i would use to describe her right now when she literally doesn't have time for normal streaming
also kill yourself pyrofreak

>>60688955
>>60694337
Obvious falseflag

>>60694475
> Zaion Lanza
Who?
Serves her right btw

>>60694932
yeah she's too busy going on leisure trips and being an accessory to a marketing campaign of a game only she loves that much
>>60695039
Let me guess, you think I'm a nijifag or a chink. So again I tell you, don't you have a discord to take care of?

>>60696801
>marketing campaign of a game only she loves that much

>yeah i love kiryu coco
>who the fuck is kiryu

>>60697176
What is this post?

A vtuber's not just the person inside but also their lore, their design, the environment(community/'box'). These other factors are why a person would perceive them as different when they stream as their RM or under a new persona in a different environment.

>>60697906
He's calling you a fake fan

>>60649393
>The sustained attacks on Hololive didn't work
>Now trying their hand with flinging shit at Vshojo

Niji-bros...

>>60700070
That's understandable, especially for collabs, but nothing trumps the person

>>60701255
Have you ordered the Gura merch yet?

>>60701263
the character trumps the person, it's why noel is still more popular than her RM

>>60701494
Thank you for confirming who is making those posts, I figured

>>60688955
based

>>60702097
The character doesn't exist without the RM. How do you people not get this. If there's nobody behind it, the soul, putting themselves into it, you're just staring at an unmoving png that says and does nothing. The "character" is a doll, window dressing for the person using it to dance and spin stories.

>>60703277
because you aren't watcing the RM or a streamer, you'e watching a chuuba.
The character is tantamount, it isn't completely just acting out a character as if reading a script for an anime, but it isn't literally just the person as if the model was nothing but an avatar.
It's the incarnation of a character.
The misunderstanding of this tenet by you fags and the western scene, and the overemphasis of the nakanohito over the vtuber is why so much bullshit like fleshstreaming and face reveals happen. It's in the same vein as seaslur doxxniggery and why the cargo cult thesis hold so much weight

>>60703638
this is true for like 10 vtubers in total
for every other vtuber, jp included, the "character acting" is just word replacements for japan, mom, dad and possibly a vocal quirk peko

>>60703638
> so much bullshit like fleshstreaming
and like handstreams?

>>60703638
This argument is dumb because there is no vtuber with more kayfabe than Projekt Melody

>>60703875
My guy, even people like comedians or show hosts or idols and singers put on personas, vtubing is the same but taken further because they're also "filling in" and incarnating characters that have set characteristics to begin with.
Think about how fucking boring actual irl streamers that don't put on personas and are just being themselves are, usually you watch those guys for their gameplay or whatever. Then you get your Junichi Katos and you xqcs that put on a persona (even though most of it is still them) nd they're hugely popular for it.
vtubing is basically a form of media that necessitates that streaming style because the character you're incarnating ISN'T you. Think about the Regloss chicks, it's quite possible, in fact incredibly likely that someone like Raden drinks and smokes and shit but she plays up the sangen-kasu appeal for the character's sake. Kanade my actually be dumb and loud but it's likely she's playing up traits of hers to be entertaining, Ao is literally supposed to be playing a lady-killer prince girl archetype, Ririka is playing up her girliness and ramping up the gachikoi appeal, and Hajime can actually play into her speech impediment for the cuteness while she also can fall back on the character setting of being a sukebancho for comedic effect.
The point is, what you're seeing and observing from them ISN'T how they actually are irl, the point of the medium is to take things from yourself, take things from the character, and ramp some things up and downplay others in order to incarnate a given character. It's a synthesis, neither wholly them nor wholly the char setting
>>60703988
beside the point, the problem is the breaking the divide between char and rm. else you could argue vtubers ever showing up on stream with a flesh and blood person would be bad; it isn't.
>>60703997
I hear she's the best out of her company

>>60704827
> showing up on stream with a flesh and blood person would be bad; it isn't.
I agree

>>60703997
Didn't Project Melody use to stream on chaturbate before Vshojo was formed?

>>60706237
I'm not talking about PL or RM here by the way. I'm talking about her 3d avatar that she used to stream on chaturbate masturbating with her lewd 3d avatar

>>60706231
it would be fine if she did it like Tamaki where she kayfabes how Norio and her are two different people. (see: her marriage stream)
Momiji is just as bad as western fleshtubers imo

>>60707947
>did it like Tamaki where she kayfabes how Norio and her are two different people
funnily enough kson does this in japanese but not in english because the casual EN audience didn't get it

>>60701207
because I don't give a shit about Yakuza? what a retard

>>60708425
i don't watch kson, how does she manage that, does she use a different name?

>>60656121
I did, because I had no way of knowing they would come back. If I think I'm seeing someone I like for the last time, of course I'm gonna be sad. I still want Sana back as a proper streamer, but I've accepted she's content with her Arknights work. As long as she's happy, that's enough for me.

>>60710697
souchou: avatar, cringe delinquent boss, kumichou. her ugly self

>>60649393
Why do you have to acknowledge graduations when your talents have ownership if their IP?
Graduation makes sense when your character existence ends with employment.

>>60707278
She still does

>>60711577
Oh. I have no idea.

>>60710853
pyrofreak when are you going to neck yourself?

>>60710697
Her avatar and IRL have different names and she does roleplay if she talks about the other one on stream. But for some reason the names confuse EOPs who still sometimes call her kaichou, senchou, danchou, tenchou, and every other -chou, so she usually distinguishes between them by just saying vtuber Kson or IRL/RTX Kson in English.

>>60702097
Thats because Noel is entertaining while her roommate is incredibly boring

>>60649393
???