/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>58831959
>First Time
>Neutral
I lament.

>>58832130
Liora... your cherry hunter cred

>likes dark skin, big breasts, collars, bdsm
>doesn't follow Dona on twitter

>staff doesnt let liora retweet sexual stuff
meanwhile dona

>>58832391
It's about tags, not what she wants to do IRL, she loves actually doing it. Reading it probably just makes her wish it was her instead

>Likes lewds with her wives
More Kokone + Liora art...

>>58832423
> dislike big ass
Wtf liora, just because your ass is flat doesn't mean you can't appreciate it

What does it mean that this art that looks incredibly similar to Liora gets posted the day she has a horny stream https://twtr.to/S0_Pd

>>58832609
she's used to lusting over idols who have no butt

>>58832609
i think liora's flat ass is cute and deserving of pounding!

>>58832423
>cheating in neutral
>NTR in disgusted
what was her explanation for the difference?

>>58831959
>bondage, collar, slave - S tier
>Gag, humiliation - C tier
I honestly don't understand.
Did she pick this shit at random?

>>58832861
ntr is worse plus cheating is good in some cases, such as being tied with blackmail, etc

>>58832877
She just doesn't like gags anymore.

>>58832609
Her excuse is that she likes asian women, who usually don't have big asses.

>>58833115
How do you not like gags?
How do you like bondage and not gags?
What does bondage even mean to her? And why is BDSM in B tier?

so no ear fucking?

>>58833285
watch the vod

I can't believe she put magical girls in the 'would rather die' tier, hopefully poor Amoria never watches the vod.

>>58833285
Likes the red rope bondage aesthetic and thinks it's cute
Hates pain across the board

qrd on this hedgie tranny in the discord?

>>58833637
They're not trans, actual woman with a wife

I miss Suri
I miss Cyon

>>58833637
>Amoria is streaming
>Kokone too (even if it's members only)
>Anon wants to gossip about Discord chatters instead
What is it with people and trying to turn this place into /pkg/ 2.0 ?

>>58834696
Could be some new tactic from the O*eane shitters, since she's still around and their other shitposts didn't work

>>58834696
I wouldn't say gossip just curious why he has dickriders like >>58833833

>>58834811
hope you realize you're being the weirdo

>>58834811
I must stick up for the other boomers

>>58834860
ywnbaw

>58835332
Yup, definitely one of the Doxxane shitters. Did these guys laugh you out of /pkg/ again ?

>>58834696
>kokone streaming for members
why does she want to be away from me...

>>58835332
yeah because I'm a man

>>58835575
because you wont give her 5 dollars a month

>>58835575
Because greynames are somehow more retarded than her members.

>>58835575
If you somehow dont have a gifted sub then you dont watch her to begin with

so liora end stream and choose to raid the niji instead of amoria, she really hates magical girls

>>58836089
brand account fucked me over

>>58834696
> Discord chatters
groomers*

>>58831959
>Dark Skin in A
really? well another one to drop I guess...

>>58836295
>implying that the girls aren't the one grooming their viewers
Lol. LMAO even.

>>58835954
greys won't give "free supas" therefore they can't be more retarded

>>58836356
>doesn't like delicious brown
gay

>>58836499
>implying that spamming old memes like "luck goddess" every 2 minutes is less retarded

>>58836489
keep lying to yourself master

>>58836558
I assume she meant the other kind

>>58836572
but that's a member thing too, so double the retardation

>>58836589
>I have no argument so I will assume that you are [person I dislike]
I accept you concession.

>>58836934
Probably better off not replying to people who obviously are not getting groomed themselves by Liora, Kokone or the others.

Why is everyone so on edge today?

>>58837075
idk, feels like the O*ene shitters are having a melty about something

>>58837075
Liora put all of vnuggies' collective favorite fetishes in the neutral tier.

>>58837075
Hentai tag streams will do that
NTR one category too high and the world will burn

>>58837075
The PK Doxxer and her army are at it again.

>>58836934
the "they're grooming us" is equally retarded as "free supas" but go ahead groomer, keep lying to yourself

>>58837389
(you)

>>58837430
i rest my case

>>58837389
>>58837545
>not pretending that my imaginary enemies are real is the same as spamming retarded old memes
Kek, you can't make this shit up.

>>58836665
the only way that'd be the first assumption is you didn't watch her much
which I guess means that anon doesn't have much to lose with dropping her if he's serious, I guess

>>58836356
She's Korean, of course she likes black guys lmao. It's like built into their DNA at this point.

>>58836665
Why would you assume that?????

>>58836665
Newfag-chama...

>>58837868
/pol/ brainrot

you sit in discord, run here begging for information on a fucking janny that no one here has any reason to care about, then act like a bitch when someone answers you.
just stay sitting in discord instead of posting here.

Is this the drawback of suddenly getting 600+ CCV

>>58838164
using the list as the OP image probably didn't help

>>58838164
It's the drawback of doing something that's extremely tourist friendly. It's why I was half dreading this stream.

>>58833285
She doesn't like tags focusing on the mouth and she somehow has the impression that ball gags are painful to wear

>>58838164
not raiding Amoria was a favor

>>58837643
see that's what happens when you can't even read a simple sentence my little retard, no go back and try again

>>58838044
>act like a bitch
lmao back reddit

>>58838164
we have barely 19 posters, we're all the same anons from the last threads so people talking about oceane shitters are just coping

>>58838421
she needs the viewers tho

>>58838648
18 posters and a faggot obsessed with discord jannies

>>58838845
but not these viewers

>>58838648
They're not coping. They used to post shitposts about Liora every thread

>>58838863 (me)
ok, skimming the last thread, it's likely the same retard obsessed with discord

>>58838863
>ask 1 question
>don't get answer
>obsessed
holy shit you're a bunch faggots

>>58839071
You did get answers though, they're an old married woman

>>58839100
>>58834811

>>58831959
>Mindbreak
>futa, forced, crossdress

>Dislikes body swap, gender bender, exhibition, elf

Confused person.

>>58838943
isn't that shit from months ago?

>>58839071
if you're the same fag from last thread and your go-to is accusing people of being master, then yes, you're obsessed with discord/chat jannies

>>58839071
some retards want 4chan from all places to be their safe space

>>58839361
you seem pretty defensive of jannies, something to confess?

can we talk about the actual vtubers instead of discord jannies

suri solari more like cuteri kawaiilari

>>58839433
>qrd on this janny
>you think i'm a retard, you must be this janny
i just try to ignore jannies in chat even though master is an attention whore but why are you so obsessed

>>58839529
dude I'm the one that asked the question and I've been trying to drop it, these faggots are actually dickriders whiteknighting so hard though

>>58839626
You didn't like the normal, valid answer you received for some reason.

>>58839664
did I say that? I didn't respond to it, i.e I was trying to drop it

>>58839529
i'll riot until lofi is back, she's the cutest

>>58839578
that retard is mentioned one or 2 times every once in a while why are you fucking crying so much, shut the fuck up and go watch amoria

>>58839756
calling them dickriders and whiteknights when you don't know shit about the person you're asking about (which was also fucking stupid to do) implies you don't like the answer

>>58839870
I'm in her stream already faggot, why don't you stop bitching and send a superchat?

>>58831959
Where’s ntr?

>>58840161
in disgusted >>58832423

jannies and fags from chat aren't in the OP or any of the pastebins
but Dona is

>>58839965
love amoria but i won't let my bank know i watch cute internet girls, fucking youtube won't let me use my google funds so no supas unless they're free like kokone's

>>58839529
Yes please, I won't let some obsessive faggot turn this place into another /pkg/. Anyway, Liora is so hot and I want her to do things to me.

>>58840325
Ya know what? As stale as that meme is (and as retarded as the people who spam it every 5 minutes or so are), I’ll take that over the schizo’s ramblings any time

>>58840513
I will show Liora the wonder of paizuri.

>>58840734
>that head of red hair on the right
I miss Helen and Celine so much ;_;

wait, i think i made this soundpost and then never posted it

>>58840197
I smell cap

>>58840882
I needed this much more than I would like to admit, thanks.

>>58840646
idk if i'd call some anon schizo just for making fun of jannies every once in a while, even less when one of those jannies is the one spamming that fucking meme in chat

>>58841009
can't you just send your free supa and be happy

>>58841009
>making fun of jannies every once in a while
Dude, he’s literally obsessed with Discord mods and chatters, and trying to turn this place into another /pkg/, as one other anon put it. I don’t want this thread to suffer such a fate, as retarded as some of the mods are

>>58841217
That's why people need to just not reply to clique bullshit or whatever. Including you and me

>>58841326
Good point.

imagining a scenario with all of Liora's top ten...
if it's just the two of us, it would by necessity be futa x femboy
she can be the gyaru

>>58841448
>implying she won't groom you into becoming a gyaru

>>58841448
actually double-teaming a Hideyoshi type sounds fucking crisp

>>58841448

>>58841216
i tried but yt wants to charge me for it, fucking scam

>>58841217
it seems you're just overreacting to someone making fun of some retarded jannie, either yout're a jannie or a woman, it's not like every thread is full of it

>>58841448
i need ahegao liora

>>58841448
Futa Liora corrupting a normal dude into cross dressing as a femboy gyaru, who would be fed aphrodisiacs and fucked with dildos before she forces herself on him until he mind breaks and gets heart pupils.

kokone anons, what are her mem streams like?

This stream is doing alright. I think Amoria's going to keep streaming Replicant.

goddammit where is lofi, i need to tell her liora has been talking shit about her this last week

https://x.com/MeetaVNU/status/1704000624164020528?s=20

new thought: Echo forcing me to have sex at gunpoint

https://x.com/MaeveVNU/status/1703992952782295153?s=20

>>58843209
resident evil horror?

>>58843209
Please God smite all of the fags who will vote for another DDLC stream

>>58843209
which of these games is actually the scariest?

>>58843530
the last one maybe, she should play the one amoria played with serafi as backup

>>58843472
anon...

in one hour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZtepZlPNM4

>>58843979
I like not having severe hearing loss, though

>>58838199
ah. my bad. sorry. thought it was a fun stream so i might as well put it there.

>>58844501
do you trust?

>>58844773

Liora's CCV record...

>>58845886
I hope it doesn't mark the beginning of Liora's coomerbait era (even though she's leaning into it in her own clips)

>>58845994
She doesn't have to bait, she is natural coom

>>58844773
>turn up sound
>she yells
>lose hearing
Risky.

So what's our consensus on Liora's tastes?

>>58846830
Not super consistent due to her being bothered by random stuff but it's not too bad either, so it's an improvement over her usual shit takes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2hhWAY6WyU
also Cyon live and was talking about Liora's tag stream

>>58831959
>pegging, femdom at B
DROPPED

Maeve and Suri learned about all sorts of things today

Meeta doesn't know what "popping a cherry" means.

Cute lazy hag. I want to reflect on the good old days with her

GUERILLA LIORA HURRY HURRY HURRY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0LxcM0UzXs

autistic hag hours

Noooooo I started the downloader, but it's set to 360p.
I can't restart it, unless I wanna lose the start of the karaoke.

>>58846959
Fun contrast to the crossdress at top 10.

I like when Liora panders to me

What a fucking sweaty, old nerd... I need to kiss her

Dona sexo

>>58843979
Why did she private it?

>>58848854
I ended up moaning on stream, so she had to private it.

>>58834696
What wrong with pkg?

>>58849174
They moistly gossip about whoever annoys them in chat or on Discord, post doxx related bullshit, and argue about shit that doesn't matter instead of posting about the girls, content, etc

LIORAMINEM

>>58845994
"tune up to check which kamen rider i'll bang"

>>58845994
I hope it does. She clearly wants to do lewd stuff but management is too cucked to let her
Dona literally has paizuri ASMR and she wasnt even banned for that on twitch and its fine

>>58848152
don't worry anon, better than nothing, do you also have the last meeta stream?

>>58848152
I got you senpai
I recommend adding "best" after the channel/stream link so that it downloads the highest quality version without prompt
Also uploading Meeta's guerilla although I don't know why she privated it since it doesn't seem like she showed something she shouldn't

>>58849557
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Tia-N-XTmyqDeeJdTPq5QPH8_CKEiQAx/view?usp=sharing

>>58837125
What is the top tag of my fellows on here?
Tomboy

>>58849924
that's her next outfit

>>58848152
Done
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Tj-fhr1Q3yX-GJk1wKhjgNLFVgXQbGxf/view?usp=sharing

>>58849710
Thank god you have it. My equipment has failed me and it ended up corrupted. I need to find another way of downloading.
https://gofile.io/welcome
Could I get a go.file from you, or drive is also fine?

>>58850314
Thank you so very much.

>>58850366
I currently use drive and just delete old uploads for new uploads. Maybe I should look into gofile for posterity's sake

>>58850285
I'm just happy that she didn't put my /d/-tier tag in D tier

do you think liora fucks black guys? Asking for a friend

>>58831959
How would she feel about my very niche fetish of non-shota straight vanilla crossdressing male x female that doesn't involve pegging or the like?

>>58850624
unlikely. the most likely thing would be crossdressing asian guys with a tan to be very gyaru.

>>58850757
You're joking, right?

>>58850757
Sorry anon, Liora isn't looking for vanilla stuff in hentai

>>58850409
ah nice, go.file is but a little more anonymous and easier to share.

>>58850789
koreans love BBC though, she lives in cali so it's double BBC love

>>58849027
God fucking damnit I wanted meeta asmr..

>>58851124
>>58849879

>>58851070
understandable cope.
closest thing is all the black on asian violence and university discrimination in cali.

>>58850624
>>58851070
Liora doesb't but Liora's sister might

>>58851070
despite your obsession with ebony schlong, I think the closest thing Liora will get to realistically indulging it is picrel unfortunately

>>58850624
Black guy was one of the only things she laughed at in her YLYL stream

>>58851070
>koreans love BBC
weird but true, all the blacked artists I follow are korean for some reason

>>58851473
It's the casual racism that makes BBC even more taboo and thus desirable as a fetish. You can observe the same thing if you dive into Chinese hentai circles

>>58849879
arigathanks archive-sama

>>58851548
also true, all the bmaf twitter content I see is from chinese hags

do we know how tall liora is?

>>58850813
What's wrong with a crossdressing man having consensual sex with a woman?
>>58850881
The vanilla is negotiable, as long as the woman isn't pegging the crossdressing guy.

looking at anonymous data on dating apps, black skin is the least desirable skintone in the algorithm of the general population overall. Outside of virtuesignalling, commercials, daddy issues, or colonialism fetish it's not a common fetish.

>>58851728
>What's wrong with a crossdressing man having consensual sex with a woman?
You're joking right?

>>58851813
It's almost like fetish popularity in porn does not translate directly into real life dating/ONS

>>58831959
Reminder Liora laughed about seeing a micro penis. Feel sorry for the average /vt/ user. Not me unfortunately for I would of liked Liora to laugh at my micro penis if I had one.

>>58851859
Of course by crossdressing man I don't mean the average guy in a dress or someone like Ladybeard. I mean a convincing crossdresser that you won't recognize as a man until he speaks, even without a facemask. I also recognize such a man can only exist in fiction.

>>58851883
I understand her pain.

>>58851940
...You're joking, right...?

loving all the whitebois jumping on the "my oshi would never fuck black dudes" cope

>>58851985
I'm serious. There's a severe lack of crossdressing man x woman in hentai.

>>58852017
I do love a good, you're oshi totally fucks black dudes bait and I always bite for the fun of it.

>>58852027
...just watch real porn then?
Also I am just joking with you.

>>58851813
I think that's a copestatistic because it doesn't account for location. Sure maybe it's true in some flyover state with no nigs, but try that survey in LA or Miami and see what happens.

>>58852164
of course it's cope, everything on here have been cope in one way, or another. It's not possible to get a clear image from data like this.
If anything I think skincolour have nothing to do with how many dates you get, it's all to do with the individuals invovled.

>>58852089
If she lives in the US she fucked black dudes, sorry I don't make the rules

>>58852017
I take more umbrage with the /vt/ normalfag lens of associating the dark skin tag with 3DPD BBC instead of delicious brown 2D girls

>>58852017
nothing wrong with some good BMAF, the most kino couple

>>58852342
If she's korean she has fucked everything under the sun, sorry I don't make the rules

She said she prefers Asian chicks but never really mentioned men

>>58852570
Everyone prefers asian chicks as a given, but the idea of liking asian men really depends on location and preference, unless they got yellow fever.

>>58852660
It'd be easier if she fangirled over Tokusatsu actors more or something

>>58852570
One nights stands are very transactional, if she feels like taking a big cock black guys are on the menu, if she feels like it's real twink hours then it's asians or whitebois. If it's carpet munching season then bring in asian girls. Simple really.

Meesita
Cyrt
Maekiri
Echne
Surari

>>58852393
Yeah, it means someone like Dona, you'd think people here would know that much.

>>58854605
Its almost as if they're catalogfags only here to shit up the thread or something

>>58843209
>faith is losing to alien
shit taste god damn

>>58849504
We need more paizuri ASMR

>>58852829
>if she feels like taking a big cock black guys
I would not mind doing home invasion role play, it is what americans are into right?

bumpri bumplari

Hmmmm
Liora probably can be convinced to play Lies of P if someone jokes the game name to be Lies of PP

>>58849504
>paizuri ASMR
I won't believe you unless you provide evidence
please

>>58849504
>She clearly wants to do lewd stuff
I got the impression that it wasn't something she liked her channel to center around, but she knows that sex sells and does bring in a lot of clicks.

>>58854812
At least it's currently winning in Liora's community post, but not by much.

>>58831959
>no mecha tag
I'm slightly disappointed

>>58859584
Ok, Skye.

Would Sexafi do an h-tag tier list stream?

Good morning /vnug/ I love Kokone

>>58859617
Don't tell me you wouldn't watch a smash or pass Gundam collab

>>58860629
Sex toys would be at the top, followed by impregnation.

https://files.catbox.moe/npmjwm.mp4

>>58862416
I need to get around to commissioning lewd art, but there are so many artists it's hard to choose.

>>58849504
If Dona ever did something like that it was on rplay and probably not saved. All that's left there is dirty talk and a bj asmr. She may have done it before rplay on twitch but she also got banned on twitch in feb

>>58863027
Make a wheel containing the name H-artists you like, spin that wheel and commission the artist whose name it lands on, problem solved.

>>58856427
She liked the demo

>>58856427
hmmm...

>>58863027
Commission some of the artists that draw jiraikei

Echo drawing kokone's gift
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNWCixQNk4o

>>58849174
Like >>58849237 said, when they’re not anti-ing girls from other corpos (or even their own girls), they spend their time gossiping and shit-talking people in chat or Discord to the point of seething at their mere existence, and the less we talk about the doxxing shit the better. It’s bona fide Schizo Central.

>>58867545
I want to polish her forehead to such a lustrous shine, that Rohan will assemble its forces

>>58867545
>Echo not wearing pants

>>58868567
It started because the discordfags found out that the girls lurk /here/ ( after alt tab screen yab incidence) while ignoring the fancord so they got jealous and shit up the general.

>>58849504
source on that boss?

Echo's chat is full of cute girls! Wow!

>>58870471
With constantly budding breasts!

Opbruh Echo sounding kinda nice

serafi up

Sexafi live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cotV_riSuLg

'my vagina is a ham sandwich' - Serafi

vagina
pussy
beefbox

Is echo brushing up on spanish so she can run off to argentina after staging her suicide/graduation?

I love this chuuni robot

>>58873362
She could be going to the moon
Aliens speak spanish, after all

bumpity bump

https://twitter.com/YurikagoKokone/status/1696199135571984830
please like and retweet

I wanna take a nap but what if Liora does her guerilla...

>>58876154
If I can only retweet twice...
No, I won't use my degen account to like and retweet this
>>58876410
Set an alarm and take a short nap

>>58876485
>spoiler

>>58876485
isn't that the point of a degen account?

meeta undertale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev0FraWN5rk

>>58877076
>>58877633
No.

I need to impregnate Liora

I need Liora to mpreg me

I miss Suri

>>58832423
>hairy in disgusted
Do koreans really?

evil meeta kinda hot

I miss Suri (even more)

>>58879847
We can miss Suri equally it's not a competition

Miss this

>>58879886
I meant I miss her more than yesterday, of course it's not a competition fellow dragoober
if it was I would win tho

>>58879972
I would take a bullet for Suri if she wanted me too

>Serafi announcing her period
they really are syncing up

I'm gonna be honest, I was eager for the Meeta genocide run, but the forced psycho shtick isn't doing it for me.

>>58879695
Her preference for femboys is well established

>>58880313
Now I'm trying to remember which stream Liora announced hers. Was it the batsu stream?

>>58884529
I think it's the 30k countdown so yes, she mentioned she was having cramps so she couldn't stream for as long as she wish

>Meeta raided into a footcam stream
It's over
She's been corrupted(groomed)

what did meeta mean by this?

meeta more like foota

Feeta Osniffa

Meeta is a foot fetishist.

At least we know what's at the top of her h-tag tier list.

why feet?

How do I learn Korean.

>>58893400
Writtens easy, so any app will do, spoken is rougher, but if you watch anime dubbed in korean that youve seen before you can do decent

>>58893554
I spent a bunch of time in Korea and struggled to learn any. Difficult language.

>>58893839
I spent two years there, i could only understand it when drunk. Good think more than half of them speak english

>>58893400
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ_xqg_tWb0

>>58864798
>>58865829
I'm lazy, any recommended artists? My first request will be a bit tame, but I'm open to commissioning more from the same artist.

>>58896696
https://www.pixiv.net/en/users/4116954

>>58894498
I was in Busan so English wasn't too common.

>>58894776
Tonya is so cute and wholesome...

>>58897054
Great recommendation, but:
>Your request could not be sent because there are no payment methods that can be used for R-18 and R-18G requests in your region.

Amusingly I find myself saying 씨발 a lot when I'm upset/pissed off.

>>58901926
douzo

>>58902069
Looks pretty good(as much as AI can), will be neat if anyone cooks anything hot with it.

>>58897134
Those bandages are doing some real work.

Lofi TFT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk7S-faRMoM

Koreans up

What drives Korean women to be so cock hungry

>>58904879
Getting constantly raped by invading army men throughout history

>>58904879
Natural selection + patriarcal societal norms (plus daddy issues) + feminism + Hyper capitalist/doomer society selling a lot of sex.

>>58832423
Finally a vtuber I can relate to, as a bro.
She has good taste.

https://www.twitch.tv/vrecord_luxeed

Holo board etc

>>58904585
Koreans down

>>58908314
>Koreans down
for my micro pp

>>58832423
>Impreg
>Birth
What does she mean by this?

So has anyone here actually dated Korean women?

>>58908838
I know 2 of them and both are in a relationship, 1 is married. Honestly I wouldnt date either

>>58908915
I meant to say a open relationship

>>58908838
>So has anyone here actually dated Korean women?
...where do you think we are? No, and I don't think I ever will.
The fantasy of dating/fucking a korean woman is far, far superior to actually dating/fucking a korean woman.

>>58908958
>an open relationship
sasuga korean

>>58908964
>he actually believes this
ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
모태솔로

>i'm tired and about to go to sleep
>cyon announces she's ending the stream soon
she loves me?

Tell me about Cyon. I'm going to watch all 36 of her vods to catch up on her lore.

>>58909034
정액 걸레
What is your experience with dating korean women then? Give me one good reason why it's better to actually date them?
Why (outside of actually liking them as a person. As long as you like them race doesn't factor in at all, really) settle for a korean when you can have western, chinese, or japanese women?

>>58909369
Just catch her next stream, you don't really need to catch up to enjoy her charm.

>>58909369
Cute tanuki noises and mommy voice. She and Maeve told Suri about this place, so she’s probably browsing this thread when she’s not streaming

>>58909480
Okay Cyon. See you next stream!

Oh shit, we need a new thread

>>58909369
autistic hag
good singer
/here/

>>58909544
No, not her. Sorry.

>>58909369
Im doing the same for echo

>>58908838
Nah, I've dated 1 Latina, 1 white girl, and 1 Japanese woman from Japan.

>>58909369
seconding this, I want to catch up on her

>"catching up" on vods
>catching up on literal days worth of livestream content
Literally how?

>>58910852
I assume they’re unemployed NEETs.

>>58910852
I'm actually Professor Zoom and I can speedrun it

>>58909450
absolutely brutal spoiler

Japanese women just hit different, I don't think Korean women can compete.

>>58910852
2x speed lets you watch twice as many streams as normal while not hindering anything