Why was the Saturn so weak?

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Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:25:25 2022 No.9523960 [Reply] [Original]

Why was the Saturn so weak?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:25:50 2022 No.9523962 File: 1.52 MB, 1346x514, 1643260544535.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:27:53 2022 No.9523967 >>9523960 Because it was a 2D system pretending to be 3D.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:28:25 2022 No.9523968 >>9523967 what does that mean

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:29:43 2022 No.9523969 >>9523960 n64 was most powerful

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:33:30 2022 No.9523973 i guess if you really like warping it looks worse I guess...strange tastes though

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:35:56 2022 No.9523980 File: 2.92 MB, 1000x750, quake.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9523973 why is this even a talking point when Saturn had its own even worse kind of warping

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:38:21 2022 No.9523983 >>9523967 Isn't that a good description for the playstation as well?

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:41:36 2022 No.9523986
File: 3.00 MB, 480x360, panzer dragoon graphics.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9523980
cause it's a constant in ps1 games and not in saturn games

such a crappy system...really does show you how powerful marketing monies are...people are still trying to cope

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:41:42 2022 No.9523987

>>9523968
The hardware is deigned like a 2D system what with it's dedicated sprite and background layers, similar to a SNES or a Genesis except more powerfil. Sprites can be arbitrarily scaled, skewed, distorted on all 4 points, allowing devs to do real fake 3D on the Saturn. The background layer is kind of like the SNES, mode 7 effects et-al.

The problem is that due to the sprite nature of the Saturn, you can't really do any advanced 3D effects like reflection mapping due to no real UV mapping support or advanced blending effects.

>>9523983
The PS1 was designed like a real (albeit limited) 3D system from the start with it's hardware accelerated transformation via it's GTE and support for other 3D rendering features.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:42:42 2022 No.9523989 >>9523987 >Sprites can be arbitrarily scaled, skewed, distorted on all 4 points, allowing devs to do real fake 3D on the Saturn how isn't this 3D?

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:44:04 2022 No.9523993

>>9523967
This is right up there with "actually, Doom is a 2d game" bullshit.

Rasterizing triangles, applying affine transformations to sprites, tracing rays, they're all different techniques to approximate 3D in a 2D grid.

They're all 2D systems pretending to be 3D.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:47:13 2022 No.9523995

>>9523968
That means it can only build 3D environments by rendering square shaped tiles. PSX can render triangles. That it's a huge difference when creating 3D objects. Saturn was not meant to do that by design. Not implying it couldn't. Just way more difficult.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:48:02 2022 No.9523998 >>9523986 PDS is a late Saturn game and it literally looks a generation behind its contemporaries on PSX

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:49:03 2022 No.9524001 >>9523995 >it can only build 3D environments right so if it can do that how then is it actually a "2D system"

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:49:48 2022 No.9524003 >>9523993 Everything it's 2D pretending to be 3D if we're up to that point as are designed to show on a 2D screen.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:51:38 2022 No.9524004 File: 90 KB, 1000x703, mindblowing ps1 graphics.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9523998 so true

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:53:18 2022 No.9524007 >>9524004 Try running Grand Turismo or Metal Gear Solid on Saturn I'm the guy who recorded that PDS webm btw... lol

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:54:31 2022 No.9524010 >>9524001 2D System it's a short and easy way of saying it had not 3D environments in mind when designed. Mega Drive had 3D games too and nobody discuss what kind of console is.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:56:13 2022 No.9524013 >>9524007 usually it doesn't recognize PS1 discs I think

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:57:12 2022 No.9524015 >>9524010 >2D System it's a short and easy way of saying it had not 3D environments in mind when designed uh yeah is that why it has 2 SH2 CPUs and the VDP1 chip capable of outputing 300,000 polygons a second? shut the fuck up philistine

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:57:47 2022 No.9524016 >>9524007 I'll bet a port could be done if someone had the skill

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:58:41 2022 No.9524017 >>9524016 at 15fps with all the cool effects removed, maybe

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 11:59:46 2022 No.9524018 >>9524015 >300,000 polygons a second *sprites per second fify

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:00:07 2022 No.9524020 >>9524018 how is a distorted sprite not a polygon

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:00:27 2022 No.9524023 >>9524015 Yes. Dual CPU is for video editing, entirely unsuited for 3D gaming.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:02:23 2022 No.9524027 >>9524004 The battles in FF7 look better than anything Panzer has lol.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:03:54 2022 No.9524030 File: 549 KB, 580x326, BarePreciousJabiru-size_restricted.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9523989 You can render 3d even on Genesis or even weaker systems, but without hardware acceleration, you always lose

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:06:30 2022 No.9524035 >>9523967 actually every image you see on a screen is 2d

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:06:56 2022 No.9524036 >>9524027 lol yeah that's a pretty good joke

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:09:31 2022 No.9524041

>>9524027
everything in FFVII looks awful, the backgrounds look awful, the battles look awful, the FMVs look awful, even at the time I thought it looked awful and preferred 2d games like Tales of Destiny (hadn't played FFVI at the time)
FFIX though, that's a good looking game.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:10:54 2022 No.9524043 >>9523962 the shitty laura croft model is less noticable in the saturn version, but that's because everything looks worse

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:16:24 2022 No.9524059 >>9524017 Nah. Saturn had higher specs, it was just weird. It could also do true spheres. That reduces polygon count compared to triangles, when you're doing shoulders and stuff.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:17:45 2022 No.9524061 >>9524041 Agreed. I called them Lego people with hoov hands when the game came out.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 12:32:51 2022 No.9524075 File: 2.90 MB, 640x427, Hellslave Sega Saturn UV maping.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9523987 >ou can't really do any advanced 3D effects like reflection mapping Seems like you don't understand Saturn hardware at all.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 13:18:53 2022 No.9524117

>>9523960
It was designed with 2d in mind and only had a GPU for rendering in 2d. Then Sony unveiled the Playstation and the higher ups forced them to jam a 3d GPU inside along with the 2d one. So having to rely on two separate GPU's instead of just one makes things kind of fucky.

2d games on the Saturn actually look nicer that their PSX versions. No, SOTN doesn't count, since that game has 3d elements.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 13:20:09 2022 No.9524118 >>9523960 shitturn sucks

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 13:24:04 2022 No.9524128

>>9524117
>It was designed with 2d in mind and only had a GPU for rendering in 2d. Then Sony unveiled the Playstation and the higher ups forced them to jam a 3d GPU inside along with the 2d one. So having to rely on two separate GPU's instead of just one makes things kind of fucky.
how is it possible that people are STILL spamming this early 2000s myth despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 13:41:22 2022 No.9524147
File: 35 KB, 417x320, sakura-taisen-hanagumi-taisen-columns-sega-saturn-videogame-editorial-use-only-2c8h88n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9523960
I went into the Saturn expecting to enjoy it more than PS1, it's not a bad system but definitely no where near as good as PS1 or Dreamcast. It's very weird to see people get hyped for stuff like Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, and Manx TT. Those weren't even my favorite games on it let alone what PS1 has to offer lol. In the end I just preferred SEGA CD for being different enough from PS1 to have its own style and similar enough to Genesis to feel like an actual mainline SEGA console, despite having only around 200 games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:03:54 2022 No.9524182 >>9524075 That's a very neat effect on the firearm there. I wonder what impact it has on the framerate, and where it pulls the pixels from.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:14:02 2022 No.9524191 File: 22 KB, 481x180, mirrors.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9523993 they're all 2D systems drawing images onto a 2D screen

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:14:42 2022 No.9524192

>>9523960
The Saturn is more capable than people get it credit for, it’s not as capable a 3D machine as the PS1 but in the right hands is definitely not weak by any means. I actually really enjoy the look of Saturn titles that took advantage of VDP2, panzer dragoon zwei and radiant silvergun wouldn’t be able to be replicated on the PS1 without significant changes.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:23:26 2022 No.9524202

>>9523989
Its 3d alright, but the discussion is how the hardware was designed.

Just look at it as that the Saturn's sprite engine (VDP1) is so powerfull you can even do polygons with it.
But in the end thats all it does, grouping distorted sprites to create 3d.

See it as a next step up from the sega superscalar games.

This is very different how the psx and n64 do 3d, not going into technical details here but you have to take my word for it.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:25:45 2022 No.9524208

>>9523960
The designers were simply bad at predicting how 3D console games would shake out.
Composited background layers might make sense when you're making arcade games with a fixed or simplistic perspective but they suck ass for games with a free perspective. Same with forward mapped polygons, which are terrible when polygons can be arbitrarily close to the camera or god forbid near the edges of the viewport.
They also underestimated how many polygons the next gen would be capable of, resulting in the awkward extra SH-2 and underutilized SCU DSP.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:38:44 2022 No.9524214 I see the faggot fanboys from sega-16 are invading /vr/ again.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 14:56:54 2022 No.9524248 >>9524075 That's not what reflection mapping is. You probably know it better as "cube maps". In any case, that video is a lot more impressive than any cube mapping!

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:06:51 2022 No.9524260 >>9524214 TrekkiesUnite118 likes to suck penus

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:08:28 2022 No.9524265 File: 70 KB, 500x816, 1637690559205.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9524214 Sure that's the problem

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:11:39 2022 No.9524272 >>9524075 >Seems like you don't understand Saturn hardware at all. Apparently neither did many of the game developers either. It was an incredibly difficult system to work with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:15:02 2022 No.9524280 >>9524041 Nope. It looks beautiful. 2D would've been better ofc.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:16:13 2022 No.9524284 >>9524265 nintendo won buddy no need to be angry 20 years later

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:20:09 2022 No.9524293 >>9524284 >>9524265 Sony won, actually.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:25:25 2022 No.9524304 >>9523960 PS BROS NOOO https://youtu.be/c0UFsn1inps

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:28:47 2022 No.9524312 >>9523967 casual retro tier bs

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:41:21 2022 No.9524332

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO5towF_bhU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DByWdoKM74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO_PMZLu1eo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNRlEVrTx4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXCkcprQUro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqbXtAagX2A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5-C3KM5b6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jju0bnj__c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PRXecHN3V8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vtbp7qdi6U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAbx8pSz-tA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCF1XihZcbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9umLeulVVY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cPpRHJe_To

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:43:32 2022 No.9524335 >>9524192 >panzer dragoon zwei and radiant silvergun wouldn’t be able to be replicated on the PS1 without significant changes Somehow I doubt this, especially in the case of Zwei

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:44:28 2022 No.9524336 >>9524335 I don't, Zwei demonstrates VDP2 effects very well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:52:37 2022 No.9524353 >>9524030 this is an example of the Saturns's polygons being distorted sprites?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 15:54:27 2022 No.9524359 >>9524353 Its from a df retro video, basically shows what it looks like before sprite distortion is applied.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:01:18 2022 No.9524380 >>9524293 Well it looks more like Microsoft winning now

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:03:33 2022 No.9524385 >>9524380 Just looking at revenue, I think apple is winning with its appstore

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:05:24 2022 No.9524386

>>9523960
Sega didn't have Kutaragi or someone on his level. With arcade money they could work miracles, at home not so much. Sega was so in bed with Hitachi and their shit just sucked at the time, and wouldn't get competitive til Dreamcast. It's designed more like an SNES with an FX chip on crack with 2D layers and a separate 'layer' for 3D, instead of a proper 3D machine like PS1. A lot of games even render the ground/floor in a mode7-esque way, like Bulk Slash. The lighting on it particular is way behind what PS1 is capable of.

Anyway, not bashing on the Saturn. It's fine despite its flaws, but it was clearly a strained and troubled platform with outdated design philosophy.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:20:10 2022 No.9524415

>>9523969
This. Shame it was held back by the storage, controller, and some arch choices choking its bandwidth and texture capability, but it was rendering graphics in a relatively modern way. Playing chess while the others were playing checkers.
>inb4 people see this as aggressive and console war with me
Didn't even own it at the time, just saying.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:25:55 2022 No.9524421 The transparenty dithering on saturn is pure soul.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:29:24 2022 No.9524424 >>9524332 >battle arena toshinden ITTA ITCHA-A ITCHA-A ITTA EEY ITTA ITCHA-A ITCHA-A ITTA EEY ITTA ITCHA-A ITTA EEY ITTA ITCHA-A ITCHA-A EEY ITTA ITCHA-A ITCHA-A ITTA EEY

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:29:33 2022 No.9524425 Because it had six processors you had to program to work in perfect sync to do anything.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:39:29 2022 No.9524442 >>9524004 imagine still coping this hard 25 years later

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 16:51:55 2022 No.9524461

>>9524386
I think sega's belief was that 5th gen was too early for full 3d, and wanted to focus on a 2d machine that could also do 3d instead.

But their fonal design was a bit of a mess, and indeed feels more like a beefed up genesis/32x/sega-cd combo instead.

I also wonder what it could have been has they accepted the sgi offer.. probably still a clumsy system woth the dual sh2 chips but with an n64-like graphics chip instead.
(To anyone curious, the n64 graphics chip could do all that 2d work as well as the saturn, nite that the varios 'soft blur' filters can be disabled at will)

And had sega gone that route...who knows what the n64 would have been instead...

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:01:43 2022 No.9524479 >>9524386 >Sega didn't have Kutaragi or someone on his level. They had several, but for every one they had 100 other devs who wanted a better 2d console.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:02:12 2022 No.9524483 >>9523960 The draw distance on Saturn Tomb Raider is better than PS1's.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:11:18 2022 No.9524506 >>9524483 Overall vdp1 is like 35-40% slower than sony. It really needs vdp2 as well to keep up somewhat, but vdp2 cant be used really for a game like tomb raider

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:14:27 2022 No.9524510 >>9524506 it depends upon load a lot too, how much overdraw for example

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:15:46 2022 No.9524514 >>9524442 yeah must be difficult for ps1 fanboys

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:23:21 2022 No.9524520 File: 193 KB, 1431x500, 9FD13C35-A192-4F3F-9A11-02E203F93A33.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] why was the n64 so powerful

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:23:52 2022 No.9524521
File: 899 KB, 731x418, Grandia.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9524506
Saying it "really needs VDP2" is silly because that's like saying the SNES "really needs" the PPU. Of course it does since that's part of the architecture. It's quirky architecture but it does the job and comes with a couple of advantages like dedicated VRAM for background textures. The PS1 shits itself when it tries to do the left and has to settle on the right since it doesn't have an entirely separate GPU at it's disposal.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:24:03 2022 No.9524524 >>9523980 Quake looks better on Saturn than on PC.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:25:52 2022 No.9524526 >>9524075 Not a real game made under deadlines of shipping to retail, stop posting it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:26:01 2022 No.9524529 >>9524520 The N64 had a z buffer which is why it's the only system of it's generation that didn't have crazy warping and polygon seams up the ass.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:28:15 2022 No.9524536 >>9524529 funny, the two problems you mentioned are the two problems completely unrelated to depth buffering

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:29:49 2022 No.9524538

>>9524521
The problem is that VDP2 is only usable in specific scenarios. As he pointed out, VDP2 sits idle in a game like Tomb Raider. It needs VDP2 for acceptable performance yet much of the time VDP2 can't be used.
Playstation on the other hand just lets you throw sprites and polygons at any problem, and it does it fast enough that it's never an issue.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:32:34 2022 No.9524546 >>9524536 It is related because the z buffer is a resource hog. It was a tradeoff that made sense back in the mid 90s. Especially for a system that was only $150 at retail.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:38:31 2022 No.9524553

>>9524538
Well, yeah, but that gets to the whole comparison thing between games built for one and ported to the other. They ALL suck because while the Saturn sucks if you ask it to act like a PS1, the PS1 sucks when you ask it to act like a Saturn. So which system is "better" is going to heavily depend on what you're asking it to do. The selected game necessarily injects bias.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:42:12 2022 No.9524569

>>9524553
Indeed, that's fundamentally what console wars are about before hardware became homogenized around the 7th or 8th gen.
My opinion, without commenting on the quality of either console's games, is that the Playstation was clearly better suited for the games which consumers were interested in at the time. The Saturn is perfect for playing Virtua Fighter 2 but it just isn't the way the market was going.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:48:09 2022 No.9524584

>>9524569
Yeah, Sony seemed to have had a crystal ball since when these machines were in their principal engineering phase the gaming landscape was wildly different than what it ended up turning into. Sega was building a machine that matched up with what they were seeing from their arcade division. Obviously though arcade gaming rapidly went out of fashion.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:54:18 2022 No.9524605 >>9524075 >this ugly and lifeless demo is a good trick

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:54:44 2022 No.9524608 File: 537 KB, 2560x1440, tr1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9523960 The Saturn has better draw distance and way less texture warping. Check out the wood paneling to Lara's left.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 17:58:57 2022 No.9524619 >>9524584 It's a tough position for Sega to be in because having a machine that can capably handle home conversions of their arcade hits was important too. Though the first few attempts at Daytona and Virtua Fighter were a little embarrassing.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:01:06 2022 No.9524623

>>9523967
>>9524117
PS1 and Saturn were both designed to do 3D in theory. The Saturn's trademark titles are Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing, which are 3D games. But the issue is that 3D games and technology wasn't fully understood by most developers or the manufacturers. The PS1 and Staturn have much more rudimentary 3D capabilities just by the virtue of being older and because it was harder for devs to figure out or confidently enter. N64 has a big advantage by being created 2 years later with Mario 64 in mind. N64 also had the advantage of being made by much more talented computer engineers from the US who understood 3D better as well.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:05:12 2022 No.9524629

Saturn has very weird architecture. Very few devs ended up taking fully advantage of both VDPs, and even then they couldn't do much with some actual limitations like the infamous transparency issue.
at then end, it doesn't matter because the game library is fantastic (especially if you know Japanese, to be fair), and 2D more than make up for 3D limitations.
Playstation is a fantastically-designed system which pushed 3D gaming into an affordable space. By the way, teexture warping is pure soul, and weirdly ended up giving a more "organic" look compared to the clean 3D of powerful PC graphics cards. Real issue was the lack of RAM, especially since it's was the only system without RAM carts expansions. Big 2D arcade ports were terrible because of this.
N64 is the real stinker of the gen. Great polygon pushing capabilities and that's it. Horrendous viewing distance with fog everywhere to hide it, pathetic texture cache, no dedicated sound chip,... It doesn't help that devs prioritized resolution and polygon-count over framerate. And let's not talk about the 2D games offering (since there's barely anything to talk about).

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:06:45 2022 No.9524634

>>9524623
The N64's 3D was less rudimentary than the Playstation's, but the Playstation's was also less rudimentary than the Saturn's. The "Saturn is 2D pretending to be 3D" line is an annoying oversimplification but forward mapped polygons which don't support UV coordinates, clipping, or environment mapping are certainly more primitive.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:08:03 2022 No.9524640 >>9524521 Looks like it's just buggy shit rather than architectural limitation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:09:04 2022 No.9524642 >>9524524 Retarded segay

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:09:27 2022 No.9524645 >>9524640 It's a VRAM limitation, Saturn has 50% more of it than Playstation.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:22:23 2022 No.9524669

>>9524506
Tomb Raider isn't held back by VDP1's fill rate. You can go in and modify the draw commands to draw wireframes instead, which significantly reduces the amount of pixels VDP1 needs to draw and how much fill rate is needed. If you do this however you'll notice the game still chugs and slows down in the exact same spots to the exact same levels of performance. This indicates that VDP1 fillrate is NOT what's causing the performance issues. This means it could either be a CPU bottle neck, memory bottlenecks, etc. Odds are the game just didn't get the final bits of optimization the PS1 port got due to the Saturn port being rushed out sooner.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Sony had their performance analyzer that could tell devs exactly where the bottleneck was in their code and how to fix it. Neither Sega nor Nintendo had anything like that. So that helped developers produce faster code.

So while VDP1's fill rate is lower than the PS1's GPU, it's not the massive performance gap many think it is. Most of these games aren't doing anything that should be getting close to that limit. To hit that limit you need to be doing something really dumb like rendering the entire frame with transparent polygons or not having any code to sort and eliminate non visible polygons.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:37:08 2022 No.9524701 >>9524669 The Playstation's fillrate advantage only really starts to shine with Gouraud shaded polygons, which are drawn twice as fast and which was used to great effect in games like Crash, Spyro and FF7.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 18:42:56 2022 No.9524723 >>9523967 >>9523987 >>9523995 >>9524010 >>9524030 There is no way you're this fucking stupid lol. You have to be trolling....that or you're a Zoomer

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:04:28 2022 No.9524782 File: 193 KB, 1431x500, 1C8A31F6-3237-4B22-8188-1DA877C7FB9E.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] fuck you janny my post was legit

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:08:46 2022 No.9524793 >>9524701 Gouraud Shading isn't a fillrate issue with VDP1 either. It does it really fast as well to the point where there's little to no impact in draw time. You're thinking of half transparency which does take significantly longer to draw.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:11:05 2022 No.9524796 >>9524782 Is this supposed to be n64 perfect dark on the left? Yeah I can pop that cart in right now, but I already know it doesn't look anywhere near that bad.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:11:49 2022 No.9524797 >>9523960 It's just squares vs triangles.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:12:26 2022 No.9524798

>>9524619
Sony's advantage was that it literally had fewer chips. Sega learned the hard way that it's the number of discreet components, not their power, that determines the price. It made it almost impossible for the Saturn to be competitive. The PS1 was at minimum as capable as the Saturn if not better AND $100 cheaper.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:13:25 2022 No.9524803 >>9524075 And now with Unreal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpcjkDDLoXM

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:14:26 2022 No.9524805 >>9524619 I wonder how expensive a hypothetical Saturn would have been had they done something similar with what they did with the Genesis. The way the Genesis was like a cheaper version of the System 16, imagine the Saturn was a cheaper Model 1.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:19:11 2022 No.9524816

>>9524798
How much were Sony able to consolidate things with the PS1? I know they redesigned the GPU and swapped VRAM for SGRAM, but that's it.

On the other hand, I know about the insane number of revisions the PS2 went through and Sony was very capable of trimming that thing down to only a few chips.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:21:52 2022 No.9524824

>>9524798
This is a myth. The PS1 was sold at a similar loss to the Saturn when it launched in 1994 in Japan. This has been revealed by recent interviews from employees involved in both companies. PS1 cost about 50,000 Yen per unit to produce, Saturn cost about 54,800 Yen. Yes Saturn is more, but it's not $100 more. Both systems were sold at a $100 loss as well. The biggest cost issue in both systems wasn't the number of chips, it was the RAM. RAM prices were stupid high during this time and fell dramatically in the next 3 years. What was over $200 worth of RAM in both systems dropped to under $5 worth of RAM in the span of 2-3 years.

People love to point to $399 vs $299 but forget to look at the difference in launch dates. By the time the PS1 launched at $299 Sega had already dropped the Saturn to $349 due to the new VA1 revision and falling RAM prices with it still coming with a game. If you bought a game with your PS1 at launch, you'd be paying the same amount. 2-3 weeks after the PS1 launched Sega released a Saturn that didn't come with a game for $299. By late Spring of 1996 both systems dropped to $199 due to RAM prices continuing to fall dramatically, and in Sega's case more cost reductions with the Model 2 Saturn.

The price wasn't the issue, it was the horrible launch line up in the US.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:22:26 2022 No.9524826

>>9524640
The Saturn's VDP2 was effectively an entirely separate GPU with dedicated VRAM so a game could offload environments to it and not have to compete with other things for resources in the way the PS1 does.

Something similar happens with visual effects like the water and heat ripples in Mega Man 8 and Mega Man X4. On the Saturn it's a simple VDP2 feature but it's a bit more complicated on PS1 so they just didn't bother. The same way the VDP2 caused problems with transparency layering, it had advantages in other areas.

This is why games were more interesting to compare back then. They were often designed with the system's strengths and weaknesses in mind allowing for more visual diversity. It only became a problem when you started porting shit and suddenly every system looked like a potato. The SNES couldn't handle Genesis ports, either.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:26:28 2022 No.9524830

>>9524669
Is there any game like Crash Bandicoot on the Saturn? Naughty Dog pioneered a lot of advanced memory management techniques that are still used today but didn't exist before Crash. It's not really fair for people to accuse the Saturn of being too primitive when it doesn't have the advantage of dev support that would have kept pushing the hardware in the way the PS1 was.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:27:21 2022 No.9524831 [DELETED]

File: 104 KB, 1024x574, Stack of dead SNES CPUs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9524386
>Sega was so in bed with Hitachi and their shit just sucked at the time, and wouldn't get competitive til Dreamcast
I don't think it sucked as much as Nintendo and their Deputy Droop-a-Long buddies at Ricoh who took like 4 hardware revisions to have stable chipsets.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:28:45 2022 No.9524834 >>9524796 The N64 suffered the most with the transition away from CRTs. Nobody was complaining about it's visuals back when the system was relevant.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:30:13 2022 No.9524837

>>9524386
>Sega was so in bed with Hitachi and their shit just sucked at the time
The SH-2s are actually very good CPUs that can outperform the CPU in the PS1 in many key areas such as multiplication and division. They're the least controversial part of the Saturn's design. Sega got a very good deal on them where Hitachi actually didn't make money off the chips they sold to Sega to use in the Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:30:17 2022 No.9524838 >>9524075 This is only impressive if this is happening in a real, live match with AI computing happening while maintaining an acceptable frame rate.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:31:25 2022 No.9524842
File: 7 KB, 256x192, Street Fighter II ZX Spectrum.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9524826
>This is why games were more interesting to compare back then. They were often designed with the system's strengths and weaknesses in mind allowing for more visual diversity. It only became a problem when you started porting shit and suddenly every system looked like a potato.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:32:26 2022 No.9524847 >>9524837 Hitachi also decapped an SVP and were like "wtf is this shit? who designs a chip this way?"

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:34:54 2022 No.9524850

>>9524824
The US launch was a shitshow but that only added to the problem. Really the Saturn should have waited. The PS1 wasn't flying off shelves at it's own launch. People were still relatively happy with the 16 bit machines. What Sega should have done was hold out a bit, shore up the Saturn's weaknesses, and then match or undercut the PS1 in 1995 when everyone was finally ready to jump to next gen.

I guess they didn't want to do that because SOJ was in a rush to get Virtua Fighter in people's homes but, and this is kind of crazy but it would have made sense long term, they should have used the 32X as the stopgap. The 32X port of Virtua Fighter is surprisingly decent and could have served that purpose along with other arcade ports and then the Saturn could have launched in 1995 with Virtua Fighter 2.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:35:58 2022 No.9524852 >>9524842 that's a bit of an extreme case tbqh >>9524831 also the SNES had some pretty fucking complex chips, a lot more than what the Genesis had so i guess it did take a few revisions before they got them to work properly

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:36:09 2022 No.9524853

>>9524838
It does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZpa0ABrypc

The effect he's doing for the reflecting gun is actually pretty interesting and you can read about it here:
https://segaxtreme.net/threads/texture-coordinates-on-the-saturn.25017/

The reflective floor is actually really simple and is just rendering the room upside down under the floor and rendering the floor with dithering.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:36:58 2022 No.9524854 >>9524850 >The PS1 wasn't flying off shelves at it's own launch. People were still relatively happy with the 16 bit machines. The Mega Drive was starting to wind down but the SNES was just peaking when the PS1 launched.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:38:06 2022 No.9524857 SOJ were pissed that nobody cared about their consoles in Japan so they doubled down on Japan-friendly Saturn games, but at the expense of Western sales.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:41:26 2022 No.9524867 >>9524796 i was showing that n64 is better than Saturn

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:42:31 2022 No.9524869

>>9524850
>Sega should have waited. People were still relatively happy with the 16 bit machines
This is again another myth. You can go look at historical data and see that the 16-bit market was imploding in late 1994. And the Mega Drive was completely dead in Japan. It was time to move on. The bigger problem here was that Sega of America refused to move on which lead to the 32X being conceived which was a complete and total disaster:

https://mdshock.com/2021/04/14/segas-financial-troubles-an-analysis-of-export-revenue-1991-1998/
https://mdshock.com/2022/05/09/a-second-atari-shock-the-decline-of-the-16-bit-console-era/
https://mdshock.com/2022/08/16/a-cloud-appears-over-sega-of-americas-rapid-progress/
>they should have used the 32X as the stopgap
That wouldn't have worked at all. That's pretty much exactly what they tried and the thing was dead on arrival. No one was buying it and it was a financial disaster. That lead to them rushing the Saturn's US launch a head of schedule to try and sweep the 32X under the rug.

In reality Sega of America should have just gotten on board earlier so they could have had dev tools, manuals, libraries, etc. translated and in the hands of developers a lot sooner so they could have had a solid US launch in the fall of 1995 with a decent launch line up.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:42:57 2022 No.9524873

>>9524854
Exactly. Sega somehow got it into their heads that they absolutely had to beat Sony to market and that alone was going to make or break their entire console division. It just didn't make sense. I think part of the issue is that there was a wildly different environment across the Pacific. The Genesis was in a decline but still stable in North America but it was pretty much finished in Japan. That was the core reason why there was so much friction between divisions. SOA and SOJ were seeing two completely different things and their respective responses were clashing with each other.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:44:30 2022 No.9524879 >>9524869 >the 16-bit market was imploding in late 1994. Donkey Kong Country came out in 1994. The fucking NES was still getting a trickle of its final games in 1994.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:46:27 2022 No.9524883 >>9524879 Yeah the SNES was two years newer so it was going great guns at that point and many of its best games were coming out while the Mega Drive was looking outdated. Games from this period like Pocahontas and Comix Zone were not huge sellers.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:46:56 2022 No.9524889

>>9523960
>MUH GWAFIX
i'd love to say "how far this shit board has fallen" but it's always been a console war pissing kind of board. anyway you are AB SO LUTE LY retarded if you care about anything but a platform's exclusive games. but you all know that

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:48:07 2022 No.9524894

>>9524879
>Donkey Kong Country came out in 1994.
And? That doesn't change what the sales data indicates for the market as a whole. It just indicates that DKC was an outlier.
>The fucking NES was still getting a trickle of its final games in 1994.
As cheap bargain titles that weren't really making waves or tons of money.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 19:51:22 2022 No.9524905 >>9523967 so a trans system? transdimensional?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:00:42 2022 No.9524931 Using the average "Console is outdated in 6 years" yardstick, the Mega Drive was at the end of the road by '95.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:02:38 2022 No.9524932 >>9524642 I'm a PS1 guy. :)

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:08:58 2022 No.9524940 >>9524847 Samsung scammed Sega good by selling them a lot of poorly designed GPUs that were too fast and dense for the process used, so they quickly self-destructed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:13:58 2022 No.9524948 >>9524940 Do you have more info about this story? MD Virtua Racing was an incredible convertion and the I think the SVP was much more capable than the SFX2... I thought the only problem about the SVP was the cost

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:16:39 2022 No.9524956 >>9524948 As I said, the SVP was improperly designed and failure prone. Hitachi decapped one and found out what was going on in there.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:18:21 2022 No.9524963

>>9524623

>N64 has a big advantage by being created 2 years later with Mario 64 in mind. N64 also had the advantage of being made by much more talented computer engineers from the US who understood 3D better as well.

Then why did it suck harder than both?

Not even trying to troll, I just mean while it's technically more powerful, the best PS1 3D easily looks better than the N64's, it's as if the hardware had some fatal limitation that stopped devs utilising its power.

Everything always just looks like such a mess on N64.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:20:26 2022 No.9524967 Also the SVP was two years later than promised and Sega had to cancel several games meant to use it.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:32:30 2022 No.9524996

>>9524963
Lots of N64's new features were bandwidth hungry and Nintendo couldn't afford to give it fast enough RAM. Turn off many of those features and you get a game like World Driver Championship, which is very PS1-like in presentation but marginally better looking.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:35:22 2022 No.9525000
File: 368 KB, 470x351, caverna do dragão.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9524526
>Not a real game made under deadlines of shipping to retail, stop posting it.

Sure. I mean, not a game made by a team of employees paid to work exclusively on it from 9 to 5.

More like some guy working at his expenses in his spare time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:47:27 2022 No.9525024 Saturn wasn't that weak. 99% of developers didn't use the Saturn's hardware capabilities to the fullest, because it was way too complex. https://youtu.be/foZUcPQAMvg

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:54:11 2022 No.9525027 >>9524803 >>9524853 Unfuckn'believeble.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:54:48 2022 No.9525028 >>9524642 he's right tho. as poorly as it plays it has colored lighting and somewhat nicer colors

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 20:58:57 2022 No.9525037 >>9524013 With determination, anything is possible. I'm so tired of those loser's excuses.You WILL run the ENTIRE PS1 library with your Saturn! Until then, don't come back here.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:04:08 2022 No.9525048 >>9524506 >Overall vdp1 is like 35-40% slower than sony. vdp1 is some 3do level stupidity, psx is up to 6 times faster in normal draw and 15x faster if transparency is involved.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:14:36 2022 No.9525064 >>9525048 Where are you getting those numbers from?

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:27:18 2022 No.9525091

>>9525064
His ass. VDP1 is slower than the PS1's GPU, no doubt about that. But 3DO's fillrate is even lower and it's CPU is significantly weaker and slower. Plus it has it's OS that HAS to be loaded in and running which takes up a significant portion of memory and resources.

As for VDP1 vs PS1 GPU, I think the max theoretical fill rates are something like 24 Million Pixels per second for VDP1 vs 33 Million Pixels per second for PS1? For transparencies both will go down, but Saturn takes a very massive hit with them taking 6x longer to render, plus it doesn't work correctly in most scenarios. But for most scenarios it's basically VDP1 has about 2/3 - 3/4 of the fill rate that PS1's GPU has, but there's also VDP2 to help out with background layers and what not. In practice though you generally shouldn't be hitting those limits on either system. And if you look at a lot of these games it's not fill rate that's causing performance issues. It's generally a CPU or Memory bottleneck due to poorly optimized code, bad compilers, or poor usage of CPU and Memory resources.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:36:00 2022 No.9525101

>>9525091 is just parroting shit from documents you find online.

things like
>Saturn takes a very massive hit with them taking 6x longer to render

that's a literal quite from the development docs, and it means UP TO 6x, meaning in the worst case scenario, meaning all effects on + transparency, vs no effects on and no transparency.

But he keeps parroting it because sega fans are dumbasses like that and overblow everything. I bet he is one of the editors at sega retro.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:42:36 2022 No.9525112
File: 2.84 MB, 734x548, 1663470762516.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9524963
PS1 can do more with textures. N64 can do much better polygons and logic. N64 is much better suited for "real" 3D games, that have uneven terrain, buildings/objects, physics. PS1 is better suited for stuff like JRPGs where environments can be flat and characters don't have to have much interactivity.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:47:38 2022 No.9525120

Here is a very lenghty video on virtua racing for saturn that includes a talk with one of the devs

https://youtu.be/BjhDXStrFdc

Check at 13:30 to 16:00 for the development & debugging part.

Basically they started without having any tools initially, and were forced to do initial development at sega hq in the evening/night since the limited number of devkits were already in use by sega themselves.

Also debugging the saturn devkit ment to take out the actual cpu from its socket, and hook in some workstation cable into the cpu socket instead. Crazy shit.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:53:10 2022 No.9525132 SOA completely fucked shit up. >were still so obsessed with the Mega Drive cash cow that they neglected to translate Saturn docs into English or otherwise prepare for development of Saturn games

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 21:59:20 2022 No.9525151 and the Sonic Xtreme disaster because STI were not up to a project of that scope, and Sonic Team were busy with NiGHTs as they were pretty fucking burned out on Sonic games and wanted to do something else.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:00:40 2022 No.9525157 >>9523960 Man, ps1 had the right amount of pixelated, Saturn is too raw, everything looks like an image you've stretched back and forth too many times on ms paint.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:01:39 2022 No.9525162

>>9525101
> it means UP TO 6x, meaning in the worst case scenario, meaning all effects on + transparency, vs no effects on and no transparency.

I literally said that figure applied to rendering transparencies. Gouraud Shading doesn't really have much of a performance hit on VDP1. If you want to know how that figure is actually determined it basically boils down to this.

- A non textured pixel takes about 1 clock cycle to draw.
- A textured pixel takes about 2 cycles to draw.
- A textured and gouraud shaded pixel still takes about 2 cycles to draw.
- A half transparent pixel takes about 6 cycles to draw.

So compared to untextured pixels it's 6 times longer to draw, compared to textured it's 3 times longer to draw. So this is where your up to 6 times longer comes from. So with those values we can say that the max theoretical fillrate of VDP1 is 26-28 Million pixels per second depending on what resolution mode the Saturn is in and if you're drawing all untextured pixels. This is probably how the theoretical value listed earlier was determined. For Textured and Gouraud shaded pixels it's about 13-14 Million pixels per second. For half transparent pixels, it's about 4-5 Million pixels per second.

That's still a pretty significance performance hit for half transparencies. Throw in that they don't work correctly all the time and it's easy to see why most devs went with meshes.

That all said, if you're not doing half transparencies VDP1's fillrate is still more than enough for most games. At 320x240 resolution at 30fps you have enough fillrate to draw the entire frame buffer about 6 times per frame. So if you're sorting and culling polygons properly and not trying to draw everything as half transparent, you really shouldn't be hitting the fillrate limit.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:03:13 2022 No.9525165 >>9523969 Held back only by the small cartridge space. A few multiplats managed to squeeze into the limitation (sometimes having the best version on N64), but imagine games would have been like if games had even 300MB of space to work with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:03:32 2022 No.9525167 >>9525112 Really don't like the smudged look to everything in n64 games. Wave Race is the only game where this doesn't bother me because you're mostly on water and the water looks so damn good.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:08:13 2022 No.9525178

>>9525120
>Also debugging the saturn devkit ment to take out the actual cpu from its socket, and hook in some workstation cable into the cpu socket instead. Crazy shit.

that's how all cpu debugging used to work on early Sega dev kits, even the master system had sockets for z80 emulator plugs.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:18:52 2022 No.9525201 >>9525000 Yes, with knowledge and tools from 25 years after the saturn was dropped. Just because someone ported doom to the commodore 64 doesn't mean it's an accurate representation of what people could do at the time

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:21:55 2022 No.9525207

>>9525201
The only real advantage they have over devs back then is newer compilers that produce better code. But that's something all systems benefit from these days. Also we probably would have seen better compilers and tools come about during the time frame had Saturn lasted longer. We saw that happen with PS1 and N64 after all.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:22:59 2022 No.9525212 File: 405 KB, 1170x1195, IMG_6723.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9525201 Nothing has changed in 25 years anon, saturn is still a mess. These guys literally vm mac os8 because the latest available tools are only compatible with it lmao

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:29:11 2022 No.9525237 >>9523986 back in my day, in game rendered cinematics ran at 2 frames per second and we LIKED it

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:30:44 2022 No.9525241

>>9524894
Sales of consoles would have dropped since a lot of people had them already but the games were selling well on SNES. Even RPGs were moving 300,000-400,000 units and in Japan games like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI were million sellers. Look at the PS1 itself. People jumped on it for MK3 timed exclusivity but it was a relatively gradual uptake until around 1996 with Crash Bandicoot.

Sega was in a worse situation than Nintendo obviously because the Genesis was looking long in the tooth compared to the SNES but that doesn't change the fact that the 32 bit systems didn't start flying off the shelves right away. The 3DO dropped to $400 in late 1994, too, and nobody was buying that thing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:33:07 2022 No.9525248 >>9525241 the early PS1s weren't that reliable and the game library was kind of scanty and had a large number of PC ports

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:36:45 2022 No.9525258 >>9525157 Saturn and PS1 run at different resolutions, which creates a problem if you're moving assets from one to the other. This is primarily what makes Saturn SOTN so shitty.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:39:23 2022 No.9525268 Saturn programming is nothing too difficult when you use one CPU and limit yourself to 2D. If you try 3D or both CPUs, God help you.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:41:00 2022 No.9525272

>>9525165
The cartridge space stopped being a problem once 32MBit maskROMs became affordable. At that point you can do mostly anything in-game other than CD quality audio and FMV. The N64's pitiful texture cache was it's biggest handicap. They knew it, too, but when you're target is games like Mario 64 it isn't a big deal. It only became a huge problem once games started texturing everything and that became the new standard.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:42:01 2022 No.9525273 >>9525272 *32MByte

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:44:15 2022 No.9525281

>>9525248
Ok, but that only confirms the fact that people weren't jumping at the chance to make the transition away from 16 bit systems for the most part back in 1994. I got a PS1 in 1995 and while I loved me some Battle Arena Toshinden and Jumping Flash, I was still attentive to what was on the horizon for SNES.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:44:15 2022 No.9525280 >>9525272 those ROMs were always expensive though. the actual manufacture cost wasn't the issue, it was supply and demand because they weren't used for much of anything except game cartridges.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:46:20 2022 No.9525285 >>9525280 The games often about $20 more expensive compared to the PS1 but the N64 was cheaper than a PS1 was and you didn't need a memory card for most games, so it rounds out for your first game or two.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:49:02 2022 No.9525295 Nintendo also kept a bunch of microcodes secret and only gave them out to select second parties like Rare and Factor 5

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:49:22 2022 No.9525296

>>9525280
There was an unexpected drop in MaskROM costs that took Nintendo by surprise. It's what ruined their 64DD plans. They weren't expecting it to be market viable to stick a 64MB game into an N64 cartridge so they created the 64DD to account for that. Once those larger ROM sizes came down it made the add-on completely pointless. They had already finished it though so just sold it by mail order to recoup what they could. Had they known in advance what was coming it probably never would have existed.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:51:01 2022 No.9525301

>>9524075
>>9524803
Ah yes, tryhard schizo-ware with decades of knowledge after the fact, no deadline, and still incomplete. I've truly been blown, the fuck, out. People still make amazing Amiga demos too, so what? If you dedicate stupid amounts of autistic time toward nearly anything it'll be fancy. The thing is PS1 regularly fucked Saturn up on the reg and if someone toiled as autistically there would be products twice as good as these on it, and you know it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:51:27 2022 No.9525303 >>9525296 I'm still salty that Williams cheaped out and used an 8MB cartridge for N64 MK Trilogy. Some more space could have made it the best version by far.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:52:25 2022 No.9525306 >>9525296 that went and fucked up the FDS a decade earlier when 1 mbit ROMs suddenly dropped in price

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:52:48 2022 No.9525307

>>9525241
>Sales of consoles would have dropped since a lot of people had them already but the games were selling well on SNES.
Except that's not the case at all. Systems were selling, games weren't:
https://mdshock.com/2022/05/09/a-second-atari-shock-the-decline-of-the-16-bit-console-era/

The problem was outside of Japan multiple games were being bundled with cheap 16-bit systems to move inventory and then those people weren't buying games because they got a bunch for free. You can see companies like Sega, Nintendo, Capcom, and Konami all having to write off inventory and deal with losses at this time due 16-bit software sales not being what they were expecting.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:53:49 2022 No.9525308 >>9525301 Please tell us more about how Saturn homebrew has personally slighted you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:54:43 2022 No.9525310 >>9525307 so yeah like mentioned earlier a lot of late Mega Drive games like Pocahontas and Ristar were poor sellers

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:54:58 2022 No.9525312 >>9525306 Yup, the big N got hit twice by the same thing.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 22:58:53 2022 No.9525317

>>9525308
It's neat, I'm not saying it isn't. It just doesn't prove that it's better hardware. It just proves that if you toil and strain SO HARD to prove it can do 3D I SWARE, you can shit out a little diamond. People have gotten a decent Doom-like clone kind of working on the A500 now. It doesn't prove that it's on equal footing with 90s x86 processors. Same case here.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:02:41 2022 No.9525329

>>9525307
>>9525310
It's obvious even to a casual observer that the Genesis was harder up than the SNES was between 1994 and 1996. The issue wasn't a 16-bit one, it was a Sega Genesis one. Which makes total sense logically speaking since most people got their gaming news from print sources back then. And screenshots of Genesis games often looked way worse because of the severe palette limitations. Plus SOA was just throwing shit at the wall hoping something would stick. Just a constant stream of new IPs like Ristar, Vectorman, Comix Zone, and Eternal Champions. It also hurt them bad that they couldn't repeat a Mortal Kombat 1 since by MK3 the SNES version was more than fine, if not better.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:08:31 2022 No.9525342 The Genesis just looked passe because its gritty aesthetics were very late 80s-early 90s but by the mid-90s everyone wanted bright and cheerful, and the SNES was simply better at that.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:10:22 2022 No.9525348
File: 27 KB, 946x249, 16-bitdead.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9525310
The real writing on the wall should have been when Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles combined didn't even sell a third of what Sonic 2 sold.

>>9525317
No one's saying it's 100% better than the PS1 or N64. They're simply saying it's proof the hardware isn't as weak as people thought and was good enough to be competitive.

Quit looking at everything though the lens of a console war that hasn't been relevant for over 20 years.

>>9525329
> The issue wasn't a 16-bit one, it was a Sega Genesis one.
Then why did Nintendo have similar losses and issues as is stated in the translated Japanese Newspaper article talking about the 1995 financial year? Sega probably took the biggest hit due to Sega of America's delusional idea that the Genesis was still fine, but all major 16-bit developers were seeing the writing on the wall and taking losses due to clearing out unsold inventory in 1995.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:11:26 2022 No.9525353

>>9523986
All 5th gen systems had serious 3D rendering flaws. Not an argument and that's to be expected with early 3D outings. While PS1 had a bit more warp on average it could draw a shit-ton more polygons, had far fewer alpha transparency limitations, displayed more detailed textures, and was far more capable of dynamic and colored lighting without having a stroke. Saturn would have shat a brick on Tomb Raider 2, and was shelved for "technical issues" read: it shat a brick

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:11:43 2022 No.9525354 >>9525329 >severe palette limitation Comix Zone and Sonic 3 look far better than any SNES game.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:13:30 2022 No.9525359

>>9525348
I'm not warring. It's just worse hardware that demands a ton more effort to get decent results, and still has its limitations inherent to its hardware. See: the dithering and weird quad lighting and still kind of shitty framerate.
The Saturn is neat, in a way, and I don't hate it but it is the worst of the 3, easily and objectively.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:14:45 2022 No.9525363 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8kSwhVgNFk Ristar tries and doesn't do a bad job but compared to a game like Ardy Lightfoot the sound and color limitations are noticeable.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:17:20 2022 No.9525372 >>9525028 Retard

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:17:32 2022 No.9525373 >>9525348 Donkey Kong Country 3 sold 3.5 million and it was released in November of 1996.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:22:51 2022 No.9525385 And also the SNES could be easily enhanced with cartridge chips like Super FX while the Mega Drive couldn't really do that, it was a very closed-up architecture.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:22:53 2022 No.9525387

>>9525353
> Saturn would have shat a brick on Tomb Raider 2, and was shelved for "technical issues
The maps seem to be ok when hacked into the first game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU-Vbzf7_4Y
>>9525359
And no one is saying it doesn't have issues. They're just pointing out that the gap isn't as big as people originally thought.

As for the demo, it's getting 20-30fps most of the time, with it only chugging to 15fps in very specific spots in the large open level. And even then the dev states the performance can be improved as it's no where near optimized at the moment. He was more focused on getting it playable for the competition he submitted it to.

>>9525373
And PS1 games that came out earlier that year sold 2-3 times more than that. Final Fantasy VII came out a few months later in Japan and that game sold almost 14 million copies. Throw in the cost of making a game like Donkey Kong Country 3 with all the SGI modeling and I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make money with those kind of sales.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:24:29 2022 No.9525391 there's the important cost point. PS1 and Saturn games in '95 were a good 30% cheaper than SNES ones which were sometimes running over $70-$80.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:24:45 2022 No.9525394 >>9525385 What are you talking about? The Genesis can do expansion chips just as easily as the SNES. How the hell do you think shit like the Sega CD and 32X work? Not to mention you had the SVP chip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J17kjksD0yE

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:25:03 2022 No.9525395

>>9525162
iirc vdp1 requires 1 cycle to prepare a pixel and 1 to write, so nontextured pixel is 2 cycles and textured is 3. half transparency is 6. gouraud shading only increases the per-polygon setup time.

>we can say that the max theoretical fillrate of VDP1 is 26-28 Million pixels per second
26/28 mpixels assumes perfect access of memory on every cycle, not possible because the vdp1 uses sdram, and you have to deal with page miss penalties.

The real peak fillrate is ~24 mpixels peak. early docs flat out state this number. there's at least one homebrew app that measures this same speed on the sh2 side which also uses sdram.

one of the docs gives an actual figure you can use for approximating both texture drawing time, vdp1 per-polygon setup, and page miss penalties. i don't remember the exact values but you could only hit two digit practical fillrates if you did zero effects. with textures, you can barely fill a 320x224 framebuffer twice before you drop out from 60fps.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:25:04 2022 No.9525396 >>9525387 >And PS1 games that came out earlier that year sold 2-3 times more than that Not until years later.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:29:44 2022 No.9525410 >>9525394 the SCD was a hack job that didn't work that good because there was no IRQ line on the expansion port, and VR was the only game to use an expansion chip, which wasn't manufactured properly anyway and would self-destruct.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:30:07 2022 No.9525412 >>9525201 >Just because someone ported doom to the commodore 64 doesn't mean it's an accurate representation of what people could do at the time C64 had an actual Doom clone released as a commercial title in 1996.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:31:14 2022 No.9525416 >>9525212 >These guys literally vm mac os8 because the latest available tools are only compatible with it lmao heh, I remember having to vm windows xp because it was the only way to run some of the 16-bit DOS tools.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:35:17 2022 No.9525428

>>9525348
>The real writing on the wall should have been when Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles combined didn't even sell a third of what Sonic 2 sold.

Sonic 2 was bundled with the Genesis 2 for a long time, S3&K required parents to buy two entire cartridges.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:35:59 2022 No.9525429

>>9525348
Saying "the writing was on the wall" isn't what we're talking about. It's obvious that they needed next gen systems. The N64 was originally planned for 1995. What I'm saying is that it was senseless for Sega to get into a foot race with Sony and scramble to get the Saturn out before the PS1 since even the PS1 wasn't doing gangbusters right out of the gate. The 32 bit systems had an incubation period before the vast majority of people transitioned over. They weren't immediately buying next gen systems in 1994 so it was silly to force the Saturn out that year. They could have waited and addressed the problems rather than have all their issues compound on each other.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:37:58 2022 No.9525432 >>9525372 oh look it's Quake64 anon, the local autist

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:39:16 2022 No.9525436 SOJ officials were aghast to find out that Tom Kalinski and his Deputy Droop-a-Long crew were still ordering Mega Drives from the factory at a 1992 rate of demand and had a giant warehouse full of unsold and unsellable units.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:42:30 2022 No.9525447 >>9525436 Kalinski was convinced they could drag out the Mega Drive until '98.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:43:30 2022 No.9525451

>>9525395
>26/28 mpixels assumes perfect access of memory on every cycle, not possible because the vdp1 uses sdram, and you have to deal with page miss penalties.
Hence why I said max theoretical of just VDP1. In practice it will be less than that as you said and closer to the 24 Million Pixels/ second.

> if you did zero effects. with textures, you can barely fill a 320x224 framebuffer twice before you drop out from 60fps.
In the Saturn homebrew discord they they made a program to test the fill rate and got something around 12 Million pixels/second in 320x224 mode with textured and shaded pixels. So that would be enough to do about 2.75 full frame buffers at 60fps. or about 5-6 at 30fps. Which isn't that far off from what I said.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:46:04 2022 No.9525458

>>9525394
>The Genesis can do expansion chips just as easily as the SNES. How the hell do you think shit like the Sega CD and 32X work? Not to mention you had the SVP chip:

SNES had proper expansion ports, so it could actually handle expansion chips as co-processors. The Genesis had to use them as independent systems running in lock-step with the base console, or in the case of the 32x, as a full analog overlay. SVP cost Sega millions because Samsung shafted them with a broken chip design.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:47:17 2022 No.9525460

>>9525396
Same is true for those SNES games.

>>9525428
And even when you combine Sonic 3 and Knuckles sales together they don't get close to a third of what Sonic 2 sold. And both those games were bundled with Genesis systems as well.

>>9525429
The real issue was they had 2 competing 32-bit systems going at the same time that split resources and created a confusing mess for consumers. The issue wasn't the Saturn hardware. Sure it has it's quirks but it's good enough to be competitive for the time.

If you want to fix Sega 5th Gen simply kill 32X before it's released and put those games and developer resources into prepping the Saturn for a good launch. Would it be enough to beat the PS1? No, but it would be enough to secure a solid 2nd place.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:48:29 2022 No.9525463 >>9525451 >In the Saturn homebrew discord they they made a program to test the fill rate and got something around 12 Million pixels/second in 320x224 mode with textured and shaded pixels. Do you have a download link? I'd love to check this out.

Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:48:41 2022 No.9525465

>>9525458
>SNES had proper expansion ports.
So did the Genesis.
>so it could actually handle expansion chips as co-processors.
So could the Genesis, how do you think the SVP works? Or the Sub CPU in the Sega CD?
>SVP cost Sega millions because Samsung shafted them with a broken chip design.
And what does that have to do with the Genesis' ability to use expansion chips?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:49:02 2022 No.9525467 >>9525460 >Same is true for those SNES games SNES games were still topping sales charts in 1996.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:51:23 2022 No.9525472 >>9525463 I think it's included in Yaul? It's an attempt to recreate one of the old PSX dev samples that drew a bunch of balls on screen.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:52:23 2022 No.9525475 File: 50 KB, 960x525, 16-bitdead2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9525467 Pic related is from a translated Japanese newspaper article from February 1996.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:55:43 2022 No.9525480 >>9525475 >February 1996 Why do you think people care about this irrelevant article? The fact of the matter is there were SNES games on the best seller charts by the end of that year.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 28 23:59:12 2022 No.9525490 >>9525480 Among how many PS1 games?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:04:31 2022 No.9525505 >>9525490 There were three PSX games and four SNES/SFC games in the top ten of 1996 global best sellers.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:04:45 2022 No.9525506 the other thing to note is that Nintendo completely stopped in-house SNES development during 96 to focus on the N64 while Sega (mostly the Western divisions) were continuining to shit out Mega Drive games after the Saturn was out

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:13:22 2022 No.9525534 >>9525472 OK, I apologize for not being clear, do you have a download link to a compiled ISO I can run on my console?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:15:18 2022 No.9525538 So yeah, going by the usual "6 year lifespan" the Mega Drive was done by 1994 while the SNES had two additional years ahead before it was obsolete.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:19:48 2022 No.9525546 >>9525538 >6 year lifespan wait didn't the N64 come out in 96? by that rule it should have lasted through 2002 but they pulled the plug a year and a half before that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:23:45 2022 No.9525558 >>9525546 If it used discs maybe they could have dragged it out longer but had no chance to compete once the PS2 was out. the Dreamcast did use discs and was buried by the PS2 despite being all of three years old.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:26:44 2022 No.9525561

>>9525465
Genesis had a data port for its expansion. SNES had CPU interrupts. Having two chips working together without interrupts is like trying to use a phone without a ringer, picking it up every minute just to check if there's someone on the line.

>>9525546
N64 was meant to be released in 1995 or early 1996, I forgot. They delayed it on purpose. I remember asking around about console release dates in 1995, and one console came out 3 months early, the other was half a year late, it was an insane time.

they pulled it in 2002 because they were so far behind and the Gamecube was so far ahead.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:30:56 2022 No.9525570

Usually the 6 year rule is accurate for when something is perceived as obsolete, though it may last a while longer as a budget system if its market share/user base is big enough.

>Atari 2600: 1977-83
>Atari 8-bit computers: 1979-85
>C64: 1982-88
>FC/NES: 1983-89
>Amiga: 1985-91
>Mega Drive: 1988-94
>Gameboy: 1989-95
>SNES: 1990-96
>PS1: 1994-00
>PS2: 2000-06

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:33:32 2022 No.9525579 >>9524867 Damn that pic doesn't do PD any kind of justice and in fact, thought you were making the opposite claim, since you other comment was deleted i guess.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:37:03 2022 No.9525593 >>9525570 >C64: 1982-88 wsn't it still going in Europe for quite some time afterward? i mean you surely know about all those Ocean cartridge releases, Creatures, Mayhem in Monsterland from the early 90s?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:38:24 2022 No.9525597 SONY BROS NOO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0UFsn1inps&t=66s

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:39:32 2022 No.9525603 >>9525593 Yeah as a budget system. But realistically in the US the last year where all the major game developers supported C64 was 1988.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:41:12 2022 No.9525609 >>9525561 >>9525570 And the GBA lasted but three years because it was meant to have come out in 1996 but got extremely delayed. Had it been released on the original timetable the replacement with the DS in 04 made more sense.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:42:45 2022 No.9525613

>>9525570
Pretty much this. Usually whatever the best-selling system of the generation will soldier on for years as the budget console/shovelware repository, extending it's lifespan.

The NES, PS2, and to a slightly lesser extent, PS1 are all infamous examples of this.

The Wii is a more recent example of that phenomenon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:44:18 2022 No.9525617 Also the original Gameboy was absolutely seen as outdated by 95 and sales and new game releases dwindled; Pokemon unexpectedly brought it a couple more years.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:45:29 2022 No.9525618 >>9524043 >laura stop

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:47:54 2022 No.9525624

>>9525593
>wsn't it still going in Europe for quite some time afterward?

That was because the iron curtain fell and eastern europe (including eastern germany) could not afford anything more expensive. Commercial games were developed for it there up to the mid 90s.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:48:26 2022 No.9525628

>>9525613
The NES was seen as outdated in Japan by 1990 with newer consoles having arrived and new games weren't drawing as much hype there anymore but the huge user base meant that major game releases kept coming through 93, though with more focus on the West in the later years.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:49:56 2022 No.9525635 >>9525624 More accurately the Atari 8-bit computers found a last Indian summer in Eastern Europe in the early 90s when the hardware was over a decade old.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:52:20 2022 No.9525638

>>9525460
>The real issue was they had 2 competing 32-bit systems going at the same time that split resources and created a confusing mess for consumers.
Wouldn't have been a problem if the 32X was used as a stop gap for a September 1995 target Saturn launch. Release Virtua Fighter on 32X to get that in people's homes along with other arcade ports, if the 32X was alone for a year it would have gotten more games, possibly arcade perfect Capcom and Neo Geo games. And then Saturn launches with Virtua Fighter 2. Much more sensible than the actual Saturn launch nonsense we saw.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:54:54 2022 No.9525649 >>9525561 Yup the Genesis's expansion port was planned for a floppy drive because that was the norm in the 80s. Its unfortunate.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:56:12 2022 No.9525652

>>9525505
And those are outliers. Look at software sales as a hole. Sure those major Nintendo releases are up there in the top 10, but afterwards you see a lot more PS1 games dominating the chart which is what that article was explaining.

This is especially true if you look at the Famitsu Sales data from Japan. Sure the SNES has about 80 games charting from various years of release, but Saturn and PS1 have more than double that charting.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:58:25 2022 No.9525657

>>9525638
>Wouldn't have been a problem if the 32X was used as a stop gap for a September 1995 target Saturn launch
That's exactly what they tried to do and it failed. 32X bombed out of the gate and Sega panic launched the Saturn early to try and sweep it under the rug. In reality they should have just not done the 32X and put all those resources into the Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 00:58:50 2022 No.9525658 >>9525652 Nobody is saying the PS1 didnt take off. It just didnt do it right at launch.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 01:01:08 2022 No.9525661 >>9525658 But it did and the sales data proves it. Quit thinking outliers represent the entire console market as a whole.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 01:03:40 2022 No.9525667 >>9525570 And the Colecovision was using the TI-99/4A chips which dated to 79 so 85 was a good point to end it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 01:45:09 2022 No.9525775 >>9525661 If the PS1 was doing gangbusters at launch then what would you call what happened after Crash Bandicoot and FFVII? The PS1 wasnt selling at launch what the N64 was at its own.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:21:12 2022 No.9525867 Westerners fell for the 3D con job while Japan was ok with 2D games.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:26:50 2022 No.9525875 >>9525570 add pc engine to the list >1987-1993 hucards winded down but the CD was still very strong. the arcade card was released in 94

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:33:53 2022 No.9525887 >>9525570 the ZX Spectrum came out in 82 yet it was still getting new games 8-10 years later

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:35:56 2022 No.9525897 >>9525570 The Master System was supported through 92 though only in PAL regions after 89.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:41:49 2022 No.9525914 >>9525887 Spectrum sales peaked in the mid-80s. The user base was big enough to keep getting new games for years but not many new Speecys were sold after about 85 or so. It was similar to C64 where most (NTSC machines anyway) were sold in 83-85.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:46:02 2022 No.9525924 >>9525570 >Atari 2600: 1977-83 Ditto the Apple II. Afterwards most of its sales were to schools rather than businesses or private customers and new software kept coming out for the entire 80s but as an actually relevant machine its heyday was 79-83.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:54:37 2022 No.9525936 >>9525775 post ps1 launch sales numbers

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 02:58:49 2022 No.9525951 >>9525570 going by that the Saturn should have lasted through 2000

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 03:17:52 2022 No.9525992
File: 44 KB, 640x396, 307822_front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I still think the CDX was a better successor to the Genesis than whatever the Saturn was supposed to be. Wish more people knew about it, there was a lot more stuff released between the Genesis and Saturn than people realize.

>>9525638
The better question question is, why release the Saturn in the west at all? 32X had Spider-Man and Mortal Kombat, plus 3D games like Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter, and Knuckles' game is closer to a proper Sonic game than anything the Saturn got. The last thing anyone over here was asking for was arcade ports, especially ports of obscure Japanese games like Purikura Taisakusen or Taisen Puzzle-Dama. They'd have been better off making the Neptune and just leaving the Saturn in Japan where it belonged. We probably would've even got that 3D Sonic game too, since Sonic Mars was in the works at the time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 03:38:36 2022 No.9526041 >>9524117 Stop spreading this bullshit. The Saturn always had 2 gpus. Both are required for 2d. The gpu that draws polygons also draws 2d sprites.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 03:51:59 2022 No.9526075 >>9524834 The first time I saw a N64 was hooked up to a 14inch CRT TV. And it was clearly blurry as fuck. CRTs could easily resolve far more detail than the smeared mess that is the n64.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 04:01:18 2022 No.9526091 >>9524041 FF9 fags are the worst

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 04:11:46 2022 No.9526107 >>9525385 As far as I can tell the only thing the SNES has which the Genesis lacks is a cartridge IRQ. Besides that their expansionability is identical.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 04:13:01 2022 No.9526109 >>9525432 Literally what the hell are you talking about, retard?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 04:16:00 2022 No.9526115 Nintendo handled expansion a lot more smartly. Cartridge chips were a metric fuckton cheaper than buying a giant expensive doodad to connect to the console that was only compatible with a limited number of games.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 05:11:09 2022 No.9526212 >>9525301 >I've truly been blown, the fuck yo were

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 06:34:57 2022 No.9526462

>>9523980
some of these did play and look best on a Saturn for whatever reason (probably bcuz its only competition was n64 when ps1 didn't release the same thing)

This era is kind of a mess, because you need a bunch of different systems to get the best versions of random games

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 07:46:40 2022 No.9526572 >>9524359 >Its from a df retro video, basically shows what it looks like before sprite distortion is applied. Not the greatest audio, but this explanation covers everything: https://youtu.be/WDJgeuoaSvQ?t=113

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 07:58:32 2022 No.9526584 >>9524424 FUCK YOU OLD MAN YOUR DESPERATION MOVE IS OP AS FUCK

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 11:37:34 2022 No.9526917 >>9523960 tl:dr Saturn had better, but more complicated hardware. Only Sega titles even had the ability to fully use the hardware.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 13:46:22 2022 No.9527138 >>9525295 I vaguely remember reading that Rare reverse-engineered some system code in order to make Conker work properly. Which caused massive amounts of butthurt at Nintendo. Rare were saved from Yamauchi's ire only because Conker was a solid hit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 13:49:26 2022 No.9527148 >>9525342 This, people had moved away from the 'Robocop' aesthetic of the late-80s.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 13:50:49 2022 No.9527150 >>9527138 Conker flopped.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 14:09:39 2022 No.9527192

>>9525914
As anon here >>9525635 mentioned, Spectrum and C64 clones became popular in Eastern Europe circa 1990-1994, which gave the platforms a second wind, of sorts (most notably in terms of technical magazines and associated literature; I still remember cheaply-edited magazines, printed on what looked like glossy toilet paper, with pages upon pages of game code, to be manually written by the user).

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 15:25:15 2022 No.9527341 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGwNHPuPzMY

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 16:17:29 2022 No.9527447

>>9525867
The PS1 selling well was a huge loss for Japanese game development as a whole. 99% of 3D games made in Japan are still created with amateur flat arenas in place of level design. Nintendo EAD got 3D working right away with Super Mario 64, it's such a shame that most others couldn't follow the example.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 16:49:33 2022 No.9527518 Mesh transparencies aren't a problem on a real CRT with composite and most svideo cables.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:00:54 2022 No.9527549

>>9524007
Try running this on the PSX.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-O8jRokADU
Saturn has x2 CPUs of the PSX and a competent GPU and a DSP, why do you think MGS wouldn't run?
A port of these games by the actual good devs at Sega would destroy the original on PSX

dev kits oversights leading devs to do certain things like compression and culling in software is the actual issue with the Saturn. It otherwise pack serious power so it's almost irrelevant what the system itself can do when devs skill was always the bottleneck
They designed the console thinking everyone is the world can code as well as AM2 could. It's a huge mistake, but many games on the Saturn looks great anyway and some aged better than the PSX's average graphics, thanks to the superior amount of 2D games and 3D distortions being a lot less common on Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:09:18 2022 No.9527574 >>9523967 >>9523983 >>9524623 Saturn was not designed to be a 2d powerhouse that's a myth it was designed to match the latest arcade architecture at the time which was complicated 3rd party programmers

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:19:37 2022 No.9527589 >>9524007 MGS probably wouldn't be too bad on the Saturn. The top down perspective and large flat spaces would probably allow VDP2 to carry much of the load.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:34:05 2022 No.9527640

>>9527549
>terrible framerate, often single digit
>mostly cutscenes
>most environments shown are small boxy rooms or closed corridors
While this footage is impressive in some ways (good cutscene direction and character animations, especially for the time period), I'm not seeing anything the Playstation isn't capable of in terms of processing power.

Where is this footage from, anyway? Is it running on a retail Saturn or is this another Sonic Xtreme situation?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:44:09 2022 No.9527672 >>9526462 No you don't the ps1 had the best version 98 percent of the time

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:45:25 2022 No.9527675 >>9525472 >>9525451 still waiting for an iso to test the rendering speed. funny how segafags fall silent when they have to back up their arguments.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 17:46:04 2022 No.9527678 >>9525617 gameboy is the most overrated console on the planet 1000 game releases and only 20 worth playing yes, the konami and capcom releases were poor

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 18:19:45 2022 No.9527770 >>9527447 Doing something like Mario 64 on PS1 was a pain in the ass. You had some notable examples like Mega Man Legends and Ape Escape but the N64 was much better for wide open landscapes. Huge polygons with no visible seams, hills, etc.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 18:36:19 2022 No.9527805
File: 240 KB, 1584x1172, 1651393019838.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9527640
It's like, even less than alpha footage. Getting the fps high enough was the least of their worries at that point in dev.
It's made on an engine developed for the Saturn that was meant to run a VF3 port.
It's likely running on a Saturn or it's dev kit
We have no way to know for sure but I'm fairly confident the PSX would get an even worse framerate with a lot more polygon wobbling.
You didn't even see character models and textures like this on even the best PSX fighting games, nevermind a full 3D adventure game.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 19:11:48 2022 No.9527902 >>9527640 >Where is this footage from, anyway? Is it running on a retail Saturn or is this another Sonic Xtreme situation? Funny you mention that, half the time N64 demos werent running on actual OG 64 hardware but SGI PCs.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 20:04:40 2022 No.9528042 >>9527518 The problem with mesh transparencies is that they don't stack.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 20:53:42 2022 No.9528164 >>9528042 They'd sorta stack if the mesh grid were offset slightly. I wonder why that didn't happen.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 20:54:42 2022 No.9528169 >>9527518 >CRT with composite By the 5th gen this excuse doesn't hold up. >most svideo cables No.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:00:23 2022 No.9528192 >>9528169 Most people were still using composite up until the 7th gen when everyone began using HDMI. Better options were there but I rarely saw them in use. Anyway, Playstation dithering looks pretty bad without composite too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:02:54 2022 No.9528207 File: 193 KB, 2553x1119, SOUL.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9528192 >Playstation dithering looks pretty bad without composite no

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:09:48 2022 No.9528221 >>9523962 >>9523960 The ps1 in these screenshots is the 5500 revision, not the earlier one.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:32:17 2022 No.9528261

>>9523967
This

>>9523968
It's GPU was essentially a 2D GPU, the very way textures and their polygons worked was an extension of just applying transform effects to sprites. This is why they used quads instead of triangles, since a sprite is a flat image that has 4 corners. They essentially hacked up 2D GPU techniques with enough transform effects to make it kinda sorta work like a 3D GPU. The quads was a major reason why the Saturn could not do transparency effects except for sprites.

>>9523983
>>9523993
Bull. While the PS1 lacked a Z-buffer, it's GPU actually rendered in a 3D plane and was made for realtime 3D, it didn't hack up sprites to the point that you were using them in place of textures because you could apply enough transform effects to them to make them kinda sorta work as 3D polygons.

Yes, everything rasterizes the final image onto a 2D screen, that does not mean "every system is 2D", it's rasterizing a 3D image to a 2D screen.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:38:49 2022 No.9528281

The Saturn blew the PS1 out of the water when it came to 2D games though due to having more RAM, especially for the games that could make use of a memory expansion or had a ROM cart come with them. 2D fighters were the PS1's biggest weakness due to lack of memory for the sprites. The PS1 version of Darkstalkers 3 is a joke for example.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:47:14 2022 No.9528312 >>9527805 >You didn't even see character models and textures like this on even the best PSX fighting games, nevermind a full 3D adventure game. I don't think you've seen a lot of PSX games.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:47:33 2022 No.9528314 >>9528281 It makes you wonder how capable the Playstation may have been for 2D if it merely had a little more RAM, either out of the box or in the form of an expansion.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:52:23 2022 No.9528326 [DELETED]

>>9528192
Starting with SNES there are licensed s-video cable. PlayStation came with s-video in Europe. In Japan there were Sony TVs with PlayStation video output. Just because people around you used composite doesn't mean others didn't. PlayStation dithering looks quite nice on CRT with RGB. Saturn and Genesis using composite to create transparency was a stupid idea. Genesis is one thing, but Saturn's design was just stupid all around.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:54:29 2022 No.9528335 >>9528326 >PlayStation came with s-video in Europe. Source? S-video was more of an american standard. Here in the UK at least, we had the option of SCART (but everyone used the stock composite cables all the way up to the Wii)

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:55:07 2022 No.9528338 >>9528207 Not him but if that pic is how you play then you look pretty fucking retarded right now.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 21:57:56 2022 No.9528348 [DELETED]

>>9528192
Starting with SNES there are licensed s-video cable. PlayStation came with s-video in Europe. In Japan there were Sony TVs with PlayStation video output. Just because people around you used composite doesn't mean others also did. PlayStation dithering looks quite nice on CRT with RGB. Saturn and Genesis using composite to create transparency was a stupid idea. Genesis is one thing, but Saturn's design shouldn't had to relied to that. Also fake transparency on composite looks much worse composite compared to actual transparency on composite.
>>9528335
It was the same standard in Turkey. PS1 came with SCART cable. That SCART cable had S-Video connection inside. I remember seeing dithering as a kid, and wondering what it was. PS2 only came with composite here.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:07:38 2022 No.9528368

>>9528192
Starting with SNES there are licensed s-video cable. PlayStation came with s-video in Europe. In Japan there were Sony TVs with PlayStation video output. Just because people around you used composite doesn't mean others also did. PlayStation dithering looks quite nice on CRT with RGB. Saturn and Genesis using composite to create transparency was a stupid idea. Genesis is one thing, but Saturn's design shouldn't had to relied to that. Also fake transparency on composite looks much worse compared to actual transparency on composite.
>>9528335
It was the same standard in Turkey. PS1 came with SCART cable. That SCART cable had S-Video connection inside. I remember seeing dithering as a kid, and wondering what it was. PS2 only came with composite here.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:19:16 2022 No.9528410

>>9528314
I wonder if the parallel port would have been fast enough. Sony seems to have a history of loading their systems with various expansions and ports and then never using them, resulting in their removal in future revisions.

The parallel port on the PS1, the proprietary camera port on the PS2 that like one game used, the IR port on the PSP, tons of shit on the Vita.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:25:29 2022 No.9528430 >>9528410 PSIO says the parallel port operates at 3MB/s which is way too slow.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:35:23 2022 No.9528458 >>9528281 Would something like Guardian Heroes have even been possible on the PS1?

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:42:08 2022 No.9528470
File: 35 KB, 640x480, Teleport Yours Today.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9528430
Oh yeah, I forgot the PSIO is a thing that exists. I wonder if that magic firmware update with Denuvo-level DRM will appear before Sony releases the PlayStation 9.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:44:18 2022 No.9528480 >>9524117 >SOTN doesn't count, since that game has 3d elements. Saturnfags coping Post transparent sprites

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:47:44 2022 No.9528494 >>9523993 You're intellectually dishonest if you pretend stitching together quads from hardware built for sprite acceleration is anything other than pretending to be 3d.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:49:22 2022 No.9528505

>20 year old console wars
Touch grass faggots
Both consoles have amazing games in their own right
This isn't the 90s when you were kids and could only get to play one console, you have money now. Or a system capable of emulating both accurately. Or you're a loser.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 22:50:52 2022 No.9528513 >>9528430 Thanks for the reminder. I checked the forums and still no psio firmware updates. Someone made a happy birthday thread since its 2 years old lol

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:11:40 2022 No.9528567

In this context the difference is that the saturn needs to actually distort the sprites into the right shape in real time, which takes effort, and devs have to code in the instructions to do so which takes time and effort. Whereas for something like a PS1 it can just draw the polygon as is.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:12:56 2022 No.9528570 >>9528281 >The Saturn blew the PS1 out of the water when it came to 2D games though not by much saturnfags act if there is a drastic difference. it's usually just some extra animation frames

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:24:13 2022 No.9528593 >>9528513 I check their website occasionally since I own one. My excuse is that it was the only ODE for Playstation at the time. The site admin is on his fourth locked thread over people asking for an update lmao.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:33:06 2022 No.9528614 >>9528221 What's the difference? I know the early models are prized for their sound but didn't know the graphics were different too.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:36:56 2022 No.9528619

>>9528261
>The quads was a major reason why the Saturn could not do transparency effects except for sprites.
https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/

This article goes into detail about Saturn's transparency quirks. It's not because of the way the Saturn does 3D.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:38:09 2022 No.9528623 >>9524850 But if they'd canned the 32x and sega cd altogether they could have put those resources into the saturn instead and had a better console out sooner.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:40:26 2022 No.9528627 >>9526075 consider your inner snoy seethe

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:41:37 2022 No.9528628 >>9528494 So long as the game understands three coordinates then it's 3D. It's like when people say the PS1 can't do 2D. It's based on an oversimplification.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:44:00 2022 No.9528631

>>9528614
The earliest model Playstation has some visual bugs, mainly color banding instead of dithering.
https://consolemods.org/wiki/PS1:PS1_Model_Differences
I swear there was a video demonstrating this but I can't find it because search engines in the current year are dogshit.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:44:45 2022 No.9528636

>>9525112
Non-programmer here, did carts vs CDs have an impact on graphics for the N64 as well? Like you can have a super powerful machine but if all the assets have to be crammed into something like 32mb it's gonna lead to a lot of devs using rough looking textures and blocky models, no?

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:47:10 2022 No.9528640

>>9528623
The Sega CD came out in 1991, way too early for it to factor into anything Saturn related. A scenario where the Sega CD had a better VDP that could push more colors than the base Genesis though, that would have made a giant difference. Instead of being a middling success the Sega CD would probably have carried the Genesis for much longer. That wasn't really possible though because of the way the expansion port worked.

Besides, the Saturn was arguably already too early as is. You wouldnt want it out before late 1994 since the technology of the 90s kept advancing every few months. It's why all those early attempts at launching the next gen, like the Jaguar and 3DO look so hilariously underpowered compared to the PS1 and N64 despite technically being direct competitors. The Saturn needed some more time to cook, not less.

Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:54:32 2022 No.9528656

>>9528636
A CD can store higher quality textures compared to what you could fit onto a cartridge but that's more or less it when it comes to in-game graphics. A CD won't help you push more polygons or anything and you're still limited primarily by the system's RAM. The N64's unified RAM architecture is probably what hurt it the most. It was obviously a cost cutting measure but back then you really needed dedicated VRAM.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 29 23:59:40 2022 No.9528669 >>9528619 That's more in regards to multiple sprites being drawn on top of each other. I was talking about how it couldn't do transparency over 3D because of quads: https://youtu.be/FdD0GvVRSMc?t=42

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 00:01:26 2022 No.9528676

>>9528640
The 32x and CD were bad business decisions regardless of power or their design, consumers just don't respond well to upgrading their consoles with add ons. The best you can do is milk more money from your existing install base, and it damages confidence in your brand when consumers don't trust that they'll be able to play subsequent releases on the console they've already bought without first forking out extra cash on an upgrade. Regardless of release dates etc there's a big opportunity cost in putting your r & d resources into add-ons.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 00:01:38 2022 No.9528678 >>9523967 Oh yeah man Sega was 100% working on a 2D system for the mid 90s despite being a fucking pioneer pushing 3D in the arcade for years at that point having an impressive catalogue of games begging for a home console port they could make bank on.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 00:02:47 2022 No.9528679 >>9523960 Is that even the same texture? Those dolphins look like they were redrawn on PS1.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 00:07:02 2022 No.9528684 >>9523960 Probably because of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvRG_v8XpC0

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 00:10:04 2022 No.9528693 >>9528676 That's not entirely true. The PC-Engine CD is where most of the system's success came from in Japan. The Sega CD itself wasn't that poorly received, moving something like 2 million units.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 00:41:31 2022 No.9528752 >>9525412 What's it called?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 03:17:27 2022 No.9529026 >>9524546 The PS1's launch price was $300 in the US

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 03:31:03 2022 No.9529051 >>9528410 Better to have it go unused than to not have it when you need it. Though I wonder how much the firewire/ilink port on the PS2 cost them. Probably the most expensive addition that went unused on any of their systems.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 03:34:29 2022 No.9529060 >>9529026 Yes and the N64's was $150.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 03:36:50 2022 No.9529064 >>9529060 >$150 no it wasn't retard

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 03:37:32 2022 No.9529065 N64 kicked every other consoles ass

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 04:15:58 2022 No.9529127

>>9524584
>Yeah, Sony seemed to have had a crystal ball since when these machines were in their principal engineering phase the gaming landscape was wildly different than what it ended up turning into.

Let's be honest though, Sony also got very very lucky. Nintendo blew just about all of their 3rd party support by the time the N64 came around, especially big hitters like Squaresoft, and then insisted on still using carts in an era where the cd was taking over. Meanwhile SEGA after already limping from the blunders of the SegaCD and the 32X decided to surprise-launch their new console early which pissed off retailers and made some not even carry it, made it have shit-all at launch in terms of software because a lot of it was not ready, and it had a price tag that was $100 more than the PS1 and $200 more than the N64.

Basically, both Nintendo and SEGA, the two undisputable names in console gaming back in the 80s and early 90s, fucked up royal that gen. SEGA and Nintendo continued to fuck up with their next two systems too and nobody really cared much for Microsoft's new offering back then.

I am not saying Sony didn't do anything right mind you, but they also got very VERY lucky that both of their biggest competition fucked up royal during the PS1 and even the PS2 era.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 04:39:32 2022 No.9529163 >>9528752 Boom. no, seriously. it was closer to a dungeon crawler than a doom clone to be honest.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 04:40:47 2022 No.9529165

>>9528640
>The Sega CD came out in 1991, way too early for it to factor into anything Saturn related

Saturn development started when Sega CD hardware was finished.
The team asked all the programmers working at Sega what they wanted, and everyone said better 2d.

that's why the Saturn was built with 2d in mind, and was then changed to be able to deform 2d so it sort of looks like 3d.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 04:41:51 2022 No.9529169

>>9528678
>Oh yeah man Sega was 100% working on a 2D system for the mid 90s despite being a fucking pioneer pushing 3D in the arcade for years

Saturn development started before they did that 3d push, and that was 1 guy doing 3d games vs everyone else doing 2d games.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 04:52:25 2022 No.9529190 >>9523960 >Why was the Saturn so weak? Sega.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 05:32:01 2022 No.9529276

>>9529169
Not doubting that but that's exactly the problem. If you ask people what they want from a new system in 1992 then you're going to get very different answers compared to asking that same question in 1994. Sega didn't really do anything "wrong" with the Saturn's hardware. They started building a system based on needs that were current at the time. Then suddenly the market shifted and 3D started overtaking the landscape and so they'd either have to scrap the entire thing and start over or build on the engineering work that was already done in order to catch up to the trends. The extreme other end of the spectrum is something like the PC-FX, which barely was able to do anything relevant to the mid-90s and completely tanked because of it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 05:55:41 2022 No.9529308 >>9527805 >Sega Genesis Gamepads Uhh?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 06:04:28 2022 No.9529323 >>9524442 imagine still shitposting about it all those years later

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 06:16:15 2022 No.9529340 File: 841 KB, 800x604, My_Great_Capture_Screenshot_2018_04_25_17_36_41.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >N64 gets shit for "blurry textures" >this is the best Saturn Game

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 07:33:05 2022 No.9529435 File: 1.93 MB, 377x293, virtua.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] PSX-Pests still seething 3 decades later at not getting blistering 60 fps at home in the mid 90's like Saturn-BVLLS. Sucks to suck

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 07:41:01 2022 No.9529445 Is Saturn basically the bbc of the fifth console generation

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 07:47:53 2022 No.9529451 >>9524932 If you really were you would know it’s called PSX. PS1 was the shitty smaller version that came out towards the end of its life.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 08:04:46 2022 No.9529464 >>9529451 not this again

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 08:14:20 2022 No.9529475
File: 2.94 MB, 640x480, 1588582804765.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9526917
burning rangers and panzer dragoon saga max out the saturn's graphics potential and look and run like shit compared to games released the same year on playstation

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 08:16:54 2022 No.9529481 >>9529475 that culling is really rough

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 08:19:33 2022 No.9529484 File: 2.99 MB, 720x491, saturn quake.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] behold yet another of the saturn's "triumphs" (the developer reported the unoptimized code ran at 60fps on an experimental playstation build)

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 08:55:23 2022 No.9529529 >>9529475 >>9529484 N64 didn't have this problem

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 09:40:44 2022 No.9529591

>>9529475
>burning rangers

Burning Rangers is a legitimately good game. shame it had such a poor release. it's one of those ones that i would have liked to see a remake for. i agree with the culling. it does try to keep the framerate up. the game does have nice lighting effects.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 09:56:30 2022 No.9529613
File: 188 KB, 1280x720, 1661891489938719.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9525867
>Westerners fell for the 3D con job while Japan was ok with 2D games.

It's more than just that. The games on the PS1 were cheaper, there were more of them, it boosted as a CD player which was for many people their first one, and it was easy to program for which helped a lot for those that were from the ZX Spectrum bedroom coding days. Piracy also made it a highly desirable console over the others. Overall it was in the minds of everyone as the hottest thing to get.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 09:58:24 2022 No.9529618
File: 376 KB, 1280x1624, 1661860430106.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9529276
I'd especulate It was probably Sony jumping in to the market that got SEGA all panicked out with 3D. If it was the usual sega/nintendo/nec/hudson deal, we would probably have another 2D gen and some other offshoot 3D experimentation games, but sony put a big wrench in the system and forced 3D onto the market. the fact that sega didn't use sega model 2 as a basis for their engineering, is probably a sign they really weren't expecting the market to shift to 3D. obviously SM2 is a very expensive machine to port over to a console, but I imagine they could still use it as a basis so they didn't reinvent the wheel and re-engineer the whole project from scrap, and try to dumb the specs down to a mass consumer product.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 11:16:06 2022 No.9529695 >>9529618 Sega turned down sgi, even after sgi did an update to the design based on Sega's first feedback. They really didnt want to go that route yet and stick to their 2d/3d hybrid instead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 14:05:35 2022 No.9529869 >>9529613 CDs weren't a new thing in 1995 lol. SEGA CD and TurboGrafx CD could play audio CD's too, in fact the CDX could literally be used as a discman. PS1 in general was definitely more affordable though

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 14:08:44 2022 No.9529871 >>9529618 >>9529695 You're both wrong btw, saturn was designed for 3d.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 14:12:34 2022 No.9529874

>>9528640
>>9528693
A lot of people lump the SEGA CD together with the 32X just because it's an add-on, in reality it did a lot better with close to 200 games vs. the 32X's 40 titles and lasted a lot longer on the market. This meme that "add-ons bad" also disregards other incremental systems like the GBC that ended up being a huge success despite not being around for that long.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 14:22:30 2022 No.9529891 >>9529874 The GBC was not an addon. The most successful addons would be what, the CD-ROM^2 and the FDS? Not total failures but limited in success to Japan at least.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 14:24:37 2022 No.9529895
File: 66 KB, 680x580, 1663911596299.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9529891
i imagine the power base converter did pretty well, but i really have no numbers to back it up
it doesn't really sit too well with the "add-on" definition, even though strictly that's what it is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 14:37:57 2022 No.9529912 >>9529451 It was simply Playstation in the US. "PSX" sounds third world.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 15:58:12 2022 No.9530059 >>9529871 Nah, it could do 3d for sure but sega also wanted it to do 2d really well. The entire design screams 2D/3D mix

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 16:14:53 2022 No.9530084

>>9529618
Sega was all over 3D. Virtua Fighter came out in 1993. The Saturn couldn't be like the Model 2 because it was too state of the art and would have been way too expensive. The Saturn's architecture was initially more in the vicinity of the 3DO in capability and when they saw the PS1 they wanted more horsepower so Hitachi suggested adding a second SH2 rather than replacing it entirely. That's the only real change that happened.

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 16:22:47 2022 No.9530093

>>9529891
The Super Game Boy and Game Boy Player did pretty well. Those came with an expansive library but still. The FDS was going to replace carts entirely but then maskROM prices plummeted so everyone switched back to carts and started pumping out powerful mappers that rendered the FDS obsolete. So it was an external force that interfered there.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 18:10:58 2022 No.9530310 Too many replies to just convey that the Saturn was butched and rushed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 18:31:38 2022 No.9530386 >>9530093 That was super mario 3 right? >>9528693 >2M units That is absolutely nothing for a system.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 18:36:35 2022 No.9530406 >>9528281 Didnt capcom mitigated those issued by replacing the hitspark sprites from the arcades with rendered polygons in SFA3 and JoJo?

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 18:53:51 2022 No.9530441

>>9530406
Instead of holding several frames of animation for hitsparks, SFA3 squashes and stretches a single frame as a means of reducing the number of tiles it needs to keep in memory. It's a small but very practical way of lowering VRAM use.

Parallax scrolling in SFA3 backgrounds are also rendered using polys on Playstation since raster effects aren't doable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 19:59:46 2022 No.9530583 >>9530386 The Genesis sold around 30 million in total. So 2 million Sega CDs is like 6-7% of Genesis owners. That's not great by any stretch but it's also not an abysmal failure.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 20:15:49 2022 No.9530623 ps1 gotta a 3d engine it can keep to but saturn it always fucking weak like that...hey saturn got to go

Anonymous Fri Dec 30 20:22:42 2022 No.9530652

>>9529475
Burning Rangers looked like ass, polygon wobble and hardcore clipping everywhere. It also had the hallmark of Sonic Team games, crap camera and crap controls. It's legitimately overrated due to being made by Sonic Team and doing the transparency tricks.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 20:23:43 2022 No.9530656 >>9529484 to be fair, this ran as good as most PCs could do at the time, and the lightning was even better. on the flip side it did not have multiplayer, which kind of makes the entire thing useless.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 20:26:06 2022 No.9530665 >>9530441 >Parallax scrolling in SFA3 backgrounds are also rendered using polys on Playstation since raster effects aren't doable. they are doable, they just didn't bother because it gives you the same results and it's easier to do.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 20:38:42 2022 No.9530708 >>9530665 How exactly do you adjust scroll parameters on a platform with no scrolling layers?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 20:58:38 2022 No.9530748 >>9530583 How much did SGB sold heh?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 21:02:26 2022 No.9530756 >>9529445 no, it had boring exclusives and it's library is basically a 2nd rate playstation that kicked the bucket in 1998 saturnfags also overrated the 2D ports, the differences are usually minor. the playstation handles 2D games just fine

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 30 23:14:56 2022 No.9531046 >>9530708 >How exactly do you adjust scroll parameters on a platform with no scrolling layers? same way you'd do it in software, single 1 pixel tall polygon per every raster.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 00:48:21 2022 No.9531271

>>9531046
I think what the anon meant to say is that, if you on't have the hardware to do scrolling, you have to do it in software.
Changing a polygon's coordinates (or UV) is software scrolling. Even if the display is hardware accelerated.
As opposed to old consoles where you would have a register to control the scrolling.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 00:51:09 2022 No.9531274 >>9530748 No idea but probably less than 2 million.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 00:53:11 2022 No.9531279 >>9530756 >the playstation handles 2D games just fine For the most part. The PS1 only shit the bed with X-Men vs. Street Fighter but that's because it's architecture didn't allow for RAM expansion. A base Saturn wouldn't be able to do that game either.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 01:40:14 2022 No.9531374 Playstation could draw quads as well. Checkmate, Saturnfags.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 02:22:57 2022 No.9531462

People talk like using quads was such a dumb move but at the time it was a viable option. Nvidia's early 3D acceleration used quads.

https://vintage3d.org/nv1.php

It was a little wasteful because you'd still have to calculate four vertices if you were drawing a triangle but it's not like Sega just concocted some retard plan.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 02:31:05 2022 No.9531487 >>9523960 Fucky dual CPU design that programmers barely had time to comprehend. Only time it could really get used properly was by in-house devs that had experience with it while it was being developed.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 03:15:46 2022 No.9531551

>>9531271
So? All you have to do is change SetHardwareRegister(x,y) into SetDrawLine(x,y) in the game logic. Everything else can stay the same, assuming you pay attention to your draw order (draw further most graphic first etc).

The are only really limited in RAM.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 03:27:24 2022 No.9531586

>>9531462
When the NV1 came out, 3d acceleration was in its infancy. The NV1 was actually very smart in many regards, and could do a lot of clever programming in hardware (it could do triangles, quads, 8-point transformable curved quads, and had a somewhat programmable pipeline). But then Direct3D came out, and the card wasn't compatible, and that was that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 03:33:15 2022 No.9531594 >>9531586 And the Saturn came out in 1994. My point isn't that quads were the future, just that it wasn't an unreasonable decision to use them at the time. A lot of this stuff was still being worked out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 04:30:36 2022 No.9531721 >>9530708 You adjust the scroll parameters for whatever does that scrolling. Simple as.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 04:46:06 2022 No.9531768 3D on PSX is fuck ugly. /thread

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 04:48:16 2022 No.9531771

>>9531594
>>9531586
>>9531462
Romanticize your failed hardware all you want, but quads were a dumb idea even in 1994. Triangle based 3D already existed back then and had extremely obvious advantages when you started doing anything more complex than a single color quadrilateral. Saturn and Nvidia NV1 were braindead, dead-end solutions and died as fast as can be expected with nothing significant to their name.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:11:27 2022 No.9531824

Am I the only one that was never impressed with any Saturn game? Even the FMVs seemed subpar at the time. PS had some jaw dropping graphics that really made you look, but the Saturn just seemed second rate.
Now, DC on the other hand. Holy shit. Soulcaliber and Sonic Adventure were mind-blowing in '99.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:16:11 2022 No.9531832 >>9531824 Keyo Flying Squadron and Astal looked good.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:23:26 2022 No.9531846 >>9531832 Skullmonkeys looked better than both.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:26:42 2022 No.9531853
File: 395 KB, 2560x1440, x4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9531824
Saturn's FMV was worse for sure but ironically the passage of time rescued it for me. While the PS1's FMV now just looks like shitty low res video, Saturn's has a charm to it since you never see that kind of compression anywhere else.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:27:55 2022 No.9531857 >>9525436 >>9525447 Are there any articles about this? I would love to read about what he was thinking trying to keep the Genesis going that long.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:28:07 2022 No.9531858 >>9531846 Claymation can look nice but it doesn't hold a fucking candle to quality pixelart.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:33:53 2022 No.9531871

>>9531857
I remember seeing bargain bins filled with Genesis 3s at computer stores around 1997 or 1998. They couldn't get rid of those things. The only thing I can think of was maybe he thought that there was a market for an inexpensive gaming option and the Genesis could fill that niche? There was some of that happening in Japan, what with Capcom stating outright that Rockman & Forte was meant to appeal to kids who didn't have newer systems. The idea has merit but that was already being filled by the Game Boy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:37:16 2022 No.9531882 >>9523960 Sega had weird release times for consoles. Its why the dreamcast looks better than the other 5th gen consoles. It came out 4 whole years after the ps1 but people will say its "5th gen". Then they lost the console war lol.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:38:16 2022 No.9531885 >>9525570 >Switch came out almost 6 years ago So its time right? Switch 2?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 05:39:12 2022 No.9531890 >>9531771 Sega model 1/2/3 used quads

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 07:01:18 2022 No.9532018 >2 32-bit CPUs >1 32-bit external bus connecting them

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 08:45:58 2022 No.9532143 >>9528593 It's mind boggling how little self awareness he has

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 09:33:10 2022 No.9532182 >>9531046 I suppose that could work but it's not exactly a raster effect any more. I think the doom port did something like that to avoid warping on the floors and walls.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 09:35:12 2022 No.9532183 >>9531374 The GPU subdivides these into two tris. They're not real tris. >What's the difference? Textures warp less and shading gradients look different.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 09:36:13 2022 No.9532185 >>9532183 *Not real quads.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 10:02:29 2022 No.9532212 >>9532143 Is there any reason to use the PSIO anymore

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 10:53:55 2022 No.9532302 >>9531853 Both didnt age gracefully, I prefer the simplified but cleaner look of the 16bit cutscenes instead, especially the sega cd (e.g. lunar, snatcher, popful mail) Too bad there weren't that many games using that astetic

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 11:02:36 2022 No.9532317

For all the heated discussions these playstation vs saturn vs n64 topics bring, I do think it was one of the most interesting gen technology wise.

3 systems that are each so different from each other is something we will never see again, bit of a pity really.

Also people arguing on theoretical capabilities is pointless, just accept all 3 for what they are and enjoy them as such.
In the end the entire 5th gen is just 'nes grade' for 3d, i.e. it can do functional 3d games but with huge concessions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 11:03:53 2022 No.9532320 >>9523960 Shitty design

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 11:04:55 2022 No.9532323 >>9523993 Go easy on the copium

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 11:23:40 2022 No.9532356
File: 890 KB, 3968x2976, i59rvikr4bi41[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9532317
>For all the heated discussions these playstation vs saturn vs n64 topics bring, I do think it was one of the most interesting gen technology wise.
The halfway 5th gen consoles were just as interesting technologically too.
>In the end the entire 5th gen is just 'nes grade' for 3d, i.e. it can do functional 3d games but with huge concessions.
I think this is what makes it interesting. Each console is just barely capable of acceptable 3D so the tradeoffs they each made were much larger and more noticeable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 16:48:22 2022 No.9532810 >>9531890 1/2 did and it couldn't even do transparency. 3 used triangles.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 17:10:41 2022 No.9532854 >>9532810 Why are people so obsessed with transparencies? It's such a weird hill to die on when its just one of dozens of visual effects.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 17:16:28 2022 No.9532870 >>9532854 Having them is better than not having them, and it's an obvious one to see.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 17:30:48 2022 No.9532894

Question for the anons console warring on here: why is it such a tragedy that the Saturn lacks in some areas compared to it's contemporaries? It's not a secret, there's nothing to prove after 25+ years. It really doesn't matter anymore which system is more powerful than the others: they're all weak as dogshit now.

Can't you just find these differences interesting and fun to discuss instead of being aids in an ancient pissing contest?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 17:32:54 2022 No.9532898 >>9532894 Sega fans to this day are sore about the Saturn's lack of success, and its poor performance is one reason why. Although it's often an overstated reason.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 17:38:15 2022 No.9532910 >>9532854 Because those dozens of effects all look like ass if you can't do proper transparency. >>9532894 Sega fans have a huge inferiority complex and turn everything into a pissing contest.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:26:12 2022 No.9533015 >>9532870 Right but people act like the searchlights in Mega Man X4 are the most egregious thing about the Saturn while casually dodging that the PS1 was missing it's own effects because the Saturn made it way easier to do some things with VDP2.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:29:08 2022 No.9533025

>>9532894
It's more the opposite that happens. People will post Saturn ports of PS1 games and act like that proves the Saturn was garbage but what of all the PS1 ports of Saturn games that required major downgrades? Nobody is claiming the Saturn was more powerful than the PS1. But they are saying that the Saturn had a handful of advantages over the PS1 depending on what you wanted to do in your game. And vice versa.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:31:13 2022 No.9533031

>>9533015
Playstation X4 might not have that heat wave effect but that's a hell of a lot less noticeable and less general than shit transparency. The searchlights are a particularly damning example because they highlight a weakness of the meshes, which is that they don't stack.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:32:55 2022 No.9533036

N64 is like red lobster. They have all the hits like amazing garlic cheese bread and crab but it's all a bit crap and kind of dirty. Saturn is like a tiny convenience store. The have a whole bunch of snacks and more variety than the red lobster but you can't get a rib sticking meal there. PS1 is like a truck stop with a fast food restaurant in it. They got everything there but ultimately red lobster probably has some higher quality items and you won't find that obscure ice cream bar from the small shop at the stop

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:35:14 2022 No.9533039 >>9533031 The same ripple effect is in Mega Man 8's water. Also, I don't think this is a PS1 specific issue but X4's music loops properly on Saturn.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:35:33 2022 No.9533040

>>9528636
Not a programmer either, but it's not just as simple as more storage for assets. You need to still load all of those assets into memory. It will let you have a lot more variety of assets for different levels, but it won't let you use tons of assets for a single area unless you want the game to load every 10 seconds.

Actually, carts somewhat did some of this in the earlier days, the constant loading as you play. Since the cartridges were essentially connected directly to the system address bus they were like a piece of it's hardware, and the expansion chips and/or software could swap out or sometimes even modify data on the fly and the system would just... read that data and display it, some games did this every frame.

https://youtu.be/wt73KPS_23w?t=267

NES did it a lot, not sure if the N64 was capable of this, or how much of an actual cartridge system it was. I think the GBA might have been the last true cartridge-based system that operated like this, and the DS and anything after used "cards" which operated basically more like storage the same way an optical disk would than something directly connecting within the system itself. They weren't just called "cards" because of their form factor, they were fundamentally different than carts in the way they worked.

Even if the N64 did function like that though and you somehow had a 650MB cart, there was several other limitations I recall reading about (I believe it had low texture memory and slow access to it?) that would still have been an issue with trying to give it more in the way of varied textures for it's visuals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:36:23 2022 No.9533042 >>9533036 You just smoked weed, didn't you.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:42:15 2022 No.9533052

>>9533040
This video addresses the elephant in the room that what a system "can do" is often a moving target. The Saturn could do transparency just like the PS1 if you do it in software. It just so happens that when porting games over they just didn't bother.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:44:58 2022 No.9533057

>>9533040
The N64's RDRAM was slow but had the benefit of massive bandwidth. So you could move giant amounts of data at one time at the cost of raw speed. For a cartridge system that's a perfect tradeoff. The N64's pitiful texture cache was the real bottleneck.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:48:15 2022 No.9533060 >>9533052 >If you do it in software This means losing an order of magnitude of speed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:52:54 2022 No.9533069 >>9533052 >>9533060 you can't do transparency "in software", not unless you render everything in software, or you cut up your rendering process to support esoteric bullshit like burning rangers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:53:18 2022 No.9533070 >>9533060 Well yeah, but in several of the games we're talking about that's not going to be a problem. Mega Man X4 would not be taxing the Saturn's CPUs with software transparencies.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 18:55:07 2022 No.9533075

>>9533069
https://youtu.be/WDJgeuoaSvQ

You can do quite a bit. It's obviously not worth it for a background effect on a spotlight in a single stage. Just pointing out that it's technically possible for the Saturn to do it. It would just be silly to bother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 19:01:03 2022 No.9533087 >>9533075 >Just pointing out that it's technically possible for the Saturn to do it. It would just be silly to bother. Yeah, this is also true for every computer in existence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 19:01:59 2022 No.9533091 >>9533069 The Saturn is practically designed for that kind of esoteric bullshit thanks to the dual CPUs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 19:05:02 2022 No.9533095 >>9533091 Dual CPUs makes fully software rendered graphics a bit more practical in theory, it doesn't make compositing the sort of hybrid renderer being proposed any easier.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 19:31:17 2022 No.9533137 >>9533091 >The Saturn is practically designed for that kind of esoteric bullshit thanks to the dual CPUs. the dual cpus can't run independently (one halts the other), so no.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 19:35:53 2022 No.9533142 >>9533137 If that were true there would be no point in having two CPUs. But it is true that both can only run simultaneously when inside cache due to sharing the system bus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 20:28:45 2022 No.9533220 >>9531871 I can't find any articles about this though

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 21:17:55 2022 No.9533334 >>9529276 >If you ask people what they want from a new system in 1992 then you're going to get very different answers compared to asking that same question in 1994 Are you suggesting the playstation didn't also enter development around the same time?

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 21:40:49 2022 No.9533389

>>9533334
Sony took as much of a risk. They were vindicated by history but that doesn't mean anyone "knew." Its like how people say Nintendo was retarded for not using CDs when at the time the N64 was being designed the majority of CD consoles were either slow to sell or outright failures.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 21:55:18 2022 No.9533426 >>9528631 Cool. I didn't knew about this. I've given away all my PS1 consoles except for my 1001 and my PSOne.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 22:07:19 2022 No.9533445 >>9533426 I found a video demonstrating it, in glorious 240p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HKjcxCuRfM

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 22:14:16 2022 No.9533453

>>9531885
Generations appear to have gotten slightly longer, actually, perhaps a symbol of them being more competitive and less outright stomps a la PS2, combined with mid-gen model upgrades. The 360 came out in 2005 and its successor released 8 years later, with the PS3 and PS4 being 7 years apart. The Wii U was indeed 6 years after the Wii and technically started the 8th-gen, but it was a massive flop, and the Switch followed less than 5 years later. As for the 9th-gen consoles, they too came out 7 years after the 8th-gen ones. So yeah, even the Switch might still have another year or so left before its successor.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 22:15:49 2022 No.9533458 Tony Hawk Pro Skater was the killer app. Essentially they never had an answer to this, and that game moved hardware. Everyone wanted a psx for that game. Just about everything else you could find a fix for

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 22:35:04 2022 No.9533506 >>9533458 THPS came out literally weeks after the Dreamcast's NA launch. Why would they port it to the Saturn, which was deader than dead by then? It got its Dreamcast port in May of the following year, anyway.

Anonymous Sat Dec 31 22:36:28 2022 No.9533514

>>9532212
I can think of a few, but they aren't appealing to most.

1. I think it's compatible with more PS1 models/board revisions than the XStation?

2. It lets you keep and still use the optical drive (Most don't seem to give a damn about this since just about every other ODE requires removal of the drive, but it's a big one for me personally... the system that this matters the most for me is the Dreamcast, which annoyingly is one of the only ones without such an ODE option)

3. And I am not sure, but I think the install is a little bit easier?

Other than that, yeah, the Xstation has many things over the PSIO. Cheaper price, no DRM, the firmware is open-source, pretty much 100% compatibility, no need to worry about patching libcrypt games as if this is 1999 all over again, they actually update their shit on a regular basis...

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 31 23:22:52 2022 No.9533613 >>9533514 PSIO lost me the second this "plug and play" option required soldering a mod chip thing. It defeats the purpose of using the expansion port. Keeping the optical drive is now the sole value.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 00:28:28 2023 No.9533710

>>9533389
Have you ever played a Saturn game? You seem to think it’s a beefed up 2D console when really everything about its architecture screams it was designed from the beginning for 3D. Or do you think it’s just coincidence the Saturn is basically a cost reduced version of Sega’s Model 2 arcade hardware?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:32:43 2023 No.9533818 >>9533710 Saturn was definitely made with 3D in mind but it is nothing like a Model 2.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:42:27 2023 No.9533839 >>9533710 >it was designed from the beginning for 3D >polygons are distorted sprites Playstation is a 3D console where 2D was an afterthought Saturn is a 2D console where 3D was an afterthought

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:47:24 2023 No.9533852 >>9533839 Yet Saturn is more powerful than psx in every department.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:47:36 2023 No.9533853 >>9533839 >polygons are distorted sprites yeah? that was very common at the time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:50:37 2023 No.9533860 File: 2.95 MB, 800x533, resident_svideo.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9533852 except transparency, lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:51:38 2023 No.9533864 >>9533852 except in sales, longevity, games, 3d graphics quality... >>9533853 yeah, a lot of other successful consoles used that type of rendering. like, say, the 3do.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:53:19 2023 No.9533870 >>9533864 >yeah, a lot of other successful consoles used that type of rendering. like, say, the 3do. and SGI rendering stations

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 01:59:17 2023 No.9533886 >>9533036 The jaguar is a makeshift bartertown with the homeless people next to the dumpster

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 02:04:59 2023 No.9533896 If you ever play an actual PS1 (not duckstation) You realise the dancing pixels are the ugliest graphics in the 90s

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 02:10:43 2023 No.9533907 >>9533870 Which one? Be specific.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 02:22:48 2023 No.9533942 >>9523987 But 2D saturn games look like shit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 02:35:03 2023 No.9533972 >>9533942 Disagree https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHhCeW7wEEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xutjQLlbgpk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1ktYZhrLmI

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 03:37:14 2023 No.9534108 >>9533514 I think 2 can be fixed by using a switch of sorts, to switch between ODE and real drive. I wonder if the PS BIOS has a bug like the PS2's, where you could burn a special media disc that lets you run your own programs.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 06:00:10 2023 No.9534321 >>9533870 >SGI rendering stations those could use both triangles and quads.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 06:23:49 2023 No.9534352 >>9534321 That and these SGI systems likely had a functional UV texture mapping system unlike the Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 07:31:58 2023 No.9534474 >>9529065 >32 million vs. PS1's 100 mil Sure thing Nintencuck

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 07:43:27 2023 No.9534486 >>9529435 Tekken 3 runs at the same framerate (60 interlaced frames) and took less effort to port outside of downgrading the backgrounds from 3D to 2D.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 08:13:45 2023 No.9534517
File: 13 KB, 282x179, download.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9523960
I think i was the only kid in my school with a Sega Saturn and i regretted not getting a PS1 pretty quickly. Saturn was so shit my friends didn't even want to swap their PS1s with me for weekends.
Sold it and got a N64 and never had a problem swapping for PS1s.

Saturn was terrible now i think back. Only game i think i ever liked was In the Hunt

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 09:29:16 2023 No.9534616 >>9534486 >took less effort to port That's not really a fair comparison. Namco's arcade machines were practically just ever so slightly beefier PS1s. Saturn wasn't remotely similar to Sega's Model 2.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 10:07:13 2023 No.9534654 >>9534517 Pleb taste. I bought a 2nd hand Saturn with panzer Dragoon, Sega Rally, shonobi and a fuckload of other titles for peanuts. It definitely was a kick aas system.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 10:12:42 2023 No.9534661 >>9534616 That's absolutely the thing. These idiots think Model 2 was comparable to ps1. They do the same exact thing when comparing the ports of Ridge Racer and Daytona USA. Imbeciles.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 13:15:37 2023 No.9534830 >>9534616 Huh, so PS1 was almost arcade quality hardware? Crazy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 15:20:48 2023 No.9535023 >>9534830 Apart from VRAM, consoles like the PS1 were able to handle virtually any 2D arcade systems of yesteryear. Again the only real issue is lack of video memory for those fuckhuge sprites that Capcom's fighting games were notorious for.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 15:23:04 2023 No.9535026 >>9535023 Sure, but that's not an insignificant limitation. Neo Geo carts were justifiably expensive because of the fuckhuge ROMs.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 15:33:15 2023 No.9535041

>>9533860

The machine can do transparencies, but only under certain conditions. When it comes to 3D, there are ways to work around the lack of transparencies, but the machine has a 'mesh mode' built into the machine that can take any texture and just render it in a checkerboard pattern to create the false illusion of transparencies. Like the image that you posted.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 15:51:33 2023 No.9535073 File: 2.12 MB, 640x450, sony-fanboy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9533942 Try harder sonygger.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 15:57:27 2023 No.9535082 >>9535023 Via 3D polygon engines. And even then with fillrate lag. Playstation is a glorified turd. And no matter how much time has passed your fanboy brain will never admit it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 16:03:43 2023 No.9535093 >>9535082 I don't think you understand anything about rasterization pipelines, 2D or 3D.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 16:19:15 2023 No.9535113

>>9531551
...
You don't understand the difference between hardware and software?

The fact that you can create a function that draw a 3D polygon on screen doesn't make it hardware accelerated.
Hardware scrolling is not the same as software one. It's not a case about which is better or not, just the fact that it's not the same thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 17:24:30 2023 No.9535221 >>9535093 Doesnt even matter. A 3D engine is not a 2D engine. Period.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 17:33:46 2023 No.9535242 >>9533860 honestly checkerboard transparency looks cool. one of the best thing about retro games is that every system had it's own unique architecture and thus spits out graphics that are discernibly and recognizably theirs.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 17:37:23 2023 No.9535253 >>9535113 >The fact that you can create a function that draw a 3D polygon on screen doesn't make it hardware accelerated. playstation has hardware accelerated polygon drawing.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 17:40:11 2023 No.9535264

>>9535023
So playstation 1 doesnt have enough memory for sprite based animation frames. And it cant draw sprites larger than 16 pixels tall. Nor does it support scaling and rotation or other 2d hardware effects. But somehow, magically the playstation is a resoectable 2D system. Yeah riiiiiight. You people are pathetic victims of 90s marketing bullshit.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 17:59:19 2023 No.9535327

>>9535264
Bad argument,
Doesn't matter _how_ a system renders the graphics, just what is eventually presented to the user on screen.

The ps1 has some limited 2d commands, and can use polygons for the fancier effects like scaling and rotation if needed.

It can do 2d just fine even if the hardware isn't dedicated to 2d.

The only argument given that is somewhat valid is the ram limitation, but that is a universal thing, not something limited to the ps1.

Taking this further, the dreamcast is better at 2d than the saturn.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:11:46 2023 No.9535378

>>9534830
By the mid-90s home consoles started to catch up to arcades and since home ports were making way more money than arcades were by then, publishers started to seriously streamline the conversion process. Namco's System 11 and System 12 were deliberately designed to be extremely similar to the PS1 with just a bit more oomph.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:15:59 2023 No.9535386

>>9535327
>Doesn't matter _how_ a system renders the graphics, just what is eventually presented to the user on screen.
Exactly. People keep arguing that Saturn can't do 3D or PS1 can't do 2D based on what's happening on the back end in hardware. But it's largely irrelevant to the end user. This is true even today. Cuphead is a 3D game as far as the engine is concerned but so what?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:16:11 2023 No.9535387 >>9535264 >And it cant draw sprites larger than 16 pixels tall. Nor does it support scaling and rotation or other 2d hardware effects. All of this is untrue in addition to being irrelevant.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:17:50 2023 No.9535390 The argument over what the systems can do "in hardware" is as silly as arguing that the NES is TECHNICALLY not capable of anything better than Super Mario Bros. because "mappers."

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:18:00 2023 No.9535392 >>9535221 What about an engine which uses both primitives?

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:20:01 2023 No.9535397

>>9535390
Eh, not really. Being a cartridge based system (and one which exposes the GPU bus to the cartridge too), NES was built to be expandable. On 5th gen consoles about the only thing you can do is add more general purpose RAM and otherwise you're stuck with the specs the system shipped with.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:28:39 2023 No.9535414 Because it was made to wreck Ninty (which it did) not PSChad

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:29:31 2023 No.9535416 >>9535414 >which it did Lmao.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:41:01 2023 No.9535445 >>9535264 just draw polygons directly facing the screen bro

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:42:00 2023 No.9535447

>>9535397
Sure but there are all kinds of variations on that. What a system "can do" is all kinds of a moving target as Naughty Dog found out when they threw out Sony's libraries and went bare metal for Crash Bandicoot even though they really weren't allowed to do that. Nintendo was much the same way with the N64 but even more draconian. The games that we got, and the hypothetical games that are technically possible, are often very different from each other. Obviously the Saturn was not pushed as well as the PS1 was. And Nintendo barely allowed anyone to fuck with the N64, only Rare and Factor 5.

My point is that it isn't the whole story to just point at a retail game and be like "see?" That's only half the story.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:43:57 2023 No.9535451
File: 78 KB, 1169x850, FlYXxPqagAAKF6W.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9535026
Huge ROMs my ass, they were doing the vague "megs" bullshit, they were expensive because of cart manufacture and chips, oh, and because they just sold them at those prices to bait the rich.

The largest NeoGeo game was KOF2k3 at 89.5 megaBYTES, Data CDs could hold 650-700MBytes, and were cheaper to make.

Companies in japan and the US only held the "megs" gimmick to bamboozle the costumer out of spite

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:49:03 2023 No.9535470 >>9524182 >I wonder [...] where it pulls the pixels from having no idea of saturn hardware or retro rendering techniques... drawing the scene and then interpolating the rendered scene framebuffer with the weapon's texture?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:49:11 2023 No.9535472 >>9535451 >The largest NeoGeo game was KOF2k3 at 89.5 megaBYTES That's a shitton for mask ROM. And the fact that they are ROM cartridges is important to the point being made.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:51:31 2023 No.9535476 >>9535447 Yeah, homebrew Devs have taken a liking to the Saturn lately and pulled off some impressive feats but I'd really like to see what the N64 can do when pushed, especially when it comes to 2D graphics.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:52:41 2023 No.9535482 Neo Geo carts were practically designed to be as expensive as possible. Two PCBs and several separate maskROM chips. Number of components keep costs high, not what those components do.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:53:28 2023 No.9535484
File: 81 KB, 1169x850, FlTMXtyaYAAPtVu.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9535472
Bitch, they are still fucking nothing compared to a CD, the only reason early CD gaming didnt have much of a difference was because they were using 85% of the data for redbook audio that could be played on CD players but shouldnt because 2 tracks were the game data, and early CD music couldnt loop.

But all that change when some companies figure it out new audio formats that allow higher quality music at lower memory size like XA audio on PS1 discs, some of em even figure out how to loop properly (Sega Saturn)

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:55:55 2023 No.9535492

>>9535484
You still don't get it, the alternative to having large and fast ROMs (as arcade platforms usually did) is to have shittons of RAM, which the mainstream 5th gen platforms didn't do and couldn't afford. Go back and read the conversation until it makes sense.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 18:57:35 2023 No.9535494 I'm always interested in seeing how far weird architecture can be pushed, like with homebrew on 32X and Saturn. That demake of the first few levels of Unreal running on a saturn at a decent framerate is pretty cool for instance.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 19:26:41 2023 No.9535567 >>9535253 Yes, it probably had. No Z buffering, and very approximate render, but it had hardware capabilities. No hardware scrolling tho.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 19:36:58 2023 No.9535594 >>9535492 Why dont you read this instead? >>9535482

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 19:37:48 2023 No.9535601 >>9535567 Sure it does. UV coordinates are your scrolling.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 19:42:46 2023 No.9535615 >>9535482 >>9535594 Neo Geo wouldn't have worked if it didn't have so many ROM chips. Letting your GPU address all the tile data directly is how you get those beautifully animated sprites.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 20:08:28 2023 No.9535669 >>9535567 dozens of 2d Playstation games say otherwise.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 20:13:07 2023 No.9535672

>>9535484
CD Based systems need to LOAD all of that information into memory, this not only causes load times (Undesirable for arcades) but it means you need to add a lot more RAM to the system and can't have large amounts of sprite and tile data at once, not unless you put an ungodly amount of RAM in the machine. ROM cartridges let the CPU and GPU access this data directly and instantly, even map it to memory addresses.

All of that space a CD can hold means jack shit if you don't have the memory to load all of that information. The Neo-Geo was released in 1990, the PS1 in 1994 and the PS1 could still not compete with the Neo Geo in terms of 2D games, especially fighters. It just did not have enough memory.

Do you have the slightest clue how much it would have cost to build a system with enough RAM to hold the contents of a CD in 1990?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 20:37:16 2023 No.9535714 >>9528470 Hey we're a little over half-way there now. 2023 is closer to 2045 than it is to the year 2000.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 20:40:26 2023 No.9535719 >>9535672 Neo geo cd?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 20:42:56 2023 No.9535727 >>9535719 Had twice as much RAM as the PlayStation and almost as much more than the Saturn. It was expensive to do that but it's the only way you get Neo Geo games onto a CD without extreme cutbacks.

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 21:20:49 2023 No.9535825

>>9535727
It had considerably more memory than the PS1:
>68000 Program Memory: 2 MB
>Fix Layer Memory: 128 KB
>Graphics Memory: 4 MB
>Sound Sample Memory: 1 MB
>Z80 Program Memory: 64 kB

And load times were utterly atrocious on that thing. Launched late 1994 and was discontinued in 1997, so yeah, was an utter flop. I think the CPS3 was pretty much one of the first popular arcade hardware models to use an optical disk (Not counting games using analog media like Dragon's Layer) and it did that by loading the entire disk into memory on boot, which takes a long time when the machine is initially turned on

Anonymous Sun Jan 1 22:43:29 2023 No.9536018

>>9535601
>Abusing 3D engine to make 2D things
Again, I can't say you can't do it, just that the PS1 doesn't seem to have hardware scrolling (for background, what else would you need it to?)

>>9535669
It *seems* that you have to do it in software.
http://www.psxdev.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458
http://www.psxdev.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3501

Anyway, who cares?
It's just technical nitpicking, and the thread is about the Saturn...

>>	Anonymous Sun Jan 1 22:59:35 2023 No.9536056 >>9536018 On the PlayStation, 2D tiles still take UV parameters.

Anonymous Mon Jan 2 03:22:26 2023 No.9536574

When Sega decided to beef up the Saturn I'm curious if they would have been better off with an entirely different CPU instead of Hitachi's suggestion to add a second SH2. A lot of games apparently ignored the second one just out of convenience and performance suffered for it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 04:20:30 2023 No.9536737 >>9524332 Huh, I've never seen the PS1 version of DoA1 before. It seems more like a DoA2U kind of thing, while the Saturn version is more Arcade faithful.

Anonymous Mon Jan 2 06:17:34 2023 No.9536968

>>9535451
Whatever meds your on are clearly affecting your little zoomer brain.
There's nothing vague or bullshit about megs. That's literally how the memory used in measured. In bits. If you weren't an ignorant child who's never seen a datasheet you'd know that.
And imagine arguing that carts didn't really cost a lot to make in one sentence and then saying how much better and cheaper CDs were in the next. Schizo much?
Have you ever played games on a PS1 and neo geo? Must not have, or you'd easily understand the advantages of the carts.
Obligatory reminder for all underage shitposters that this is an 18+ board.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 06:19:29 2023 No.9536973 Loading times notwithstanding, weren't Neo Geo games effectively arcade perfect on the Saturn? KOF 95 came with a ROM cart to serve much of the same purpose.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 06:50:30 2023 No.9537015 >>9536973 no sound effects got downgraded in most neo geo ports. Kof 96 sounds terrible but 95 sounds fine. The cps2 ports suffered from low sfx quality too

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 07:28:13 2023 No.9537081 >>9525027 Unreal actually

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 11:15:04 2023 No.9537325 >>9523980 Wasn't Saturn Quake gimped by ID Software because they had issue with how the dev was doing things?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 11:26:16 2023 No.9537336 >>9536973 You mean NGCD? No. A lot of NGCD games were gimped. Then again some had extra shit.

Anonymous Mon Jan 2 16:22:03 2023 No.9537775
File: 6 KB, 324x155, download (3).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9537336
>You mean NGCD? No. A lot of NGCD games were gimped.

the Neo-Geo CD is basically a CD version of the AES. many of the AES games were ported to the Neo-Geo CD. The unit was put on market to help reduce the cost of Neo-Geo games as they could be sold at $60.00 instead of $299.99 for the big carts. The Neo-Geo CD has about double the system RAM of the Saturn and PS1, and even that wasn't enough for 100% perfect AES ports. Some of the games are missing frames of animation, also the loading for the single speed disc drive was slow.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 16:23:04 2023 No.9537779 >>9537325 No that's Doom

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 16:40:59 2023 No.9537824 >>9537779 >>9537325 Playstation Doom was "gimped" in the same way and performed fine.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 16:45:26 2023 No.9537837 >>9537824 Playstation doom wasn't using its sound processor to render the viewport to avoid texture warping

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 16:47:12 2023 No.9537845 >>9537837 >using its sound processor Lolwut? Are you getting confused with the Jaguar now?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jan 2 16:58:26 2023 No.9537862 >>9537845 Yes I am, I meant using the DSPs

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 03:09:48 2023 No.9539371 >>9537336 No, I mean Saturn. The 1MB RAM cart supposedly made the Saturn the better option for Neo Geo games compared to getting an expensive as shit AES.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 12:16:44 2023 No.9540101 >>9539371 You'd need the 4MB RAM cart to get approximately as much memory as the Neo Geo CD. Even then the RAM carts are pretty slow and only usable for sprite streaming, rather than directly usable by the GPUs, so you can get slowdowns.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 14:34:36 2023 No.9540319 >>9540101 >only usable for sprite streaming not according to hellslave

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 15:43:34 2023 No.9540409 File: 2.97 MB, 1920x1080, sf3.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] these are the best graphics on saturn and it looks like a midlife PS1 game at best

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:37:56 2023 No.9540528 >>9524248 It's not a cubemap. It's a distorted framebuffer render-to-texture effect. Notice how it can only display thing in front of the camera. A cubemap has information about the whole mapped surrounding area.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 17:11:00 2023 No.9540605 >>9540101 I don't think it's that slow. KOF95 used a ROM cart and they switched to RAM because it made more sense than packaging every game with a unique cartridge. The effect is the same though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 20:25:19 2023 No.9541059 >>9523960 Short answer, quadrilateral triangles are hard to program.

Anonymous Tue Jan 3 20:48:18 2023 No.9541103
File: 361 KB, 1920x1080, This Ain't Visual Basic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9541059
Not really true, they are more taxing on a GPU and harder to use with things like transparencies, but not harder to program. For many things they can be easier than using triangles.

The harder to program part comes from the Saturn having two CPUs, two GPUs, and several other processors that one had to keep in sync with assembly code.

Anonymous Tue Jan 3 20:50:43 2023 No.9541108
File: 504 KB, 1920x1080, Seriously How The Fuck.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I honestly have no idea how people managed dealing with those systems that had several processors and co-processors in them, the Atari Jaguar was also a mess like that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 21:33:10 2023 No.9541190 >>9541108 back at the time, you had to be actually skilled to get a programming job.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 22:42:12 2023 No.9541334 >>9541108 They just didn't. Saturn hardware was underutilized in addition to underpowered. Lots of games didn't bother doing anything with VDP2 or the SCU DSP.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 00:09:23 2023 No.9541483 >>9523960 Just was They made up for it by releasing a bunch of arcade ports that ps1 didn't get

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 00:51:47 2023 No.9541578

>>9541108
They do it now all the time. The Saturn isn't exactly like a multi core processor but it's in the same territory. It's just that back then it wasn't a common thing to have to deal with.

>>9541334
And this. The Saturn suffered a less dramatic version of what happened to the Jaguar. Developers often just left half the system idle.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 01:02:13 2023 No.9541602

>>9541578
Nowadays you have high-level code and far more advanced languages, libraries, and compilers. Pretty sure the security systems on modern consoles won't let any dev even come close to this level of running on the bare hardware as old consoles used to.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 02:28:21 2023 No.9541767 >>9540409 the best graphics on Saturn is Burning Rangers and Bulk Slash

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:51:44 2023 No.9541924

>>9541108
Allocating processes and resources can be a bitch in more complex systems. Hell even now it took months before they could get the Ryzen cpus to work as intended with everything.

Of course, back then systems were less standardized. So if you did anything on it, you had to know the system. Of course, a lot of people didn't, which is why theres so much schlock. But those that did were geniuses of game design.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:25:11 2023 No.9541989

>>9541924
Yeah, we know from the PS3 that a weird architecture can still shine if it has the market penetration to get everyone on board to really pick at it. But the Saturn's middling success in Japan and quick collapse in the west scared off a lot of the studios that would have been able to do something with it. Put Andy Gavin in front of a Saturn instead of a PS1 for Crash Bandicoot and we'd be having a very different conversation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:40:16 2023 No.9542035 >>9540409 > it looks like a midlife PS1 game at best Because it came out at the same time as midlife PS1 games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 05:23:37 2023 No.9542110 >>9541602 Devs do still have low level access to any hardware the console maker intended to use for games. There was a 3DS game that had a custom GPU driver written in assembly.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 07:31:12 2023 No.9542291 >>9542110 What game was that?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 07:36:03 2023 No.9542303 >>9542291 Ironfall. It's basically a tech demo turned game. It's a TPS, looks decent and runs at solid 60fps.

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