/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8325983]

What the fuck? I just learned how the N64 controller's analog stick works.

>Two wheels are positioned at right angles to each other below the joystick. Whenever the joystick is moved, the two wheels turn slightly. Tiny slots are arranged around the perimeter of each wheel. The wheels are each mounted between an LED (Light Emitting Diode) and a photo cell. Light from the LED, shining through the slots in the wheel on the cell, creates a small amount of current. When the amount of light changes, the level of current changes. By monitoring the output of each photo cell, the N64 can determine the exact angle at which the joystick is being held, and trigger the appropriate response.

Isn't this overcomplicated and overdesigned?
Anyone here a N64 autist who knows why they made it like this?

[Anonymous No.8326010]

>>8325983
It may sound complicated but it's actually extremely simple which is why it's the design they went with.

[Anonymous No.8326015]

>>8325983
This is exactly how mechanical computer mice worked, nothing new at the time.

[Anonymous No.8326016]

>>8325983
I think we can all admit this thing was a colossal piece of shit in retrospect.

[Anonymous No.8326023]

[Anonymous No.8326024]

>>8326023
So based

[Anonymous No.8326027]

It's a pretty simple system with maybe the exception of the gearing system, which was just a way to increase the resolution of the optical tracking, and didn't require much extra tooling.

Optical encoders are THE go-to for tracking rotational X-Y movement. Potentiometers are actually worse in a lot of respects, they drift over time because it's a mechanical connection between internal brushes and a plate, residue eventually builds up. High quality pots last a decent length of time, but modern ones are all cheap dogshit.

The other alternative, which is even better, are hall effect sensors. These are what Sega used in their analog 3D pad released a few months afterwards. Essentially, it's just a magnet moving over some sensors, the combined fields on all the sensors tell you exactly where the magnet is and thus where the stick is pointing. No mechanical connection.

The failing of the N64 sticks is that it's plastic rubbing on plastic with spring tension. This isn't a problem with some joystick designs, that use a full ball joint design, but the N64 concentrates all the pressure on a tiny little nub at the base of the stick. Over time, this wears through the bowl and fucks up the stick because now there are random little humps everywhere.

[Anonymous No.8326030]

>>8326016
Turn your monitor on

[Anonymous No.8326051]

Wait until you find out how CRT's work

[Anonymous No.8326147]

>>8326016
Mine still works like new. Ps1 doesnt read discs. Xbox 360 got red rings.

[Anonymous No.8326159]

>>8326010
FPBP.
Its kinda the point, its simple, and it works. And it lacks a deadzone due the mechanic, which isn't true for the potentiometer type analogs.

[Anonymous No.8326165]

>>8326051
>Electron gun shooting at 44.1khz
>Magnets to bend the electrons aim
>Phosphors to turn the electrons into photons
>Multiple layers of phosphors to get RGB

[Anonymous No.8326210]

>>8326027
>hall effect sensors
ALPS make (or used to) picrel which used different 4-pin potentiometers with hall effect sensors, were extremely accurate and lasted ages. Sixaxis and early-mid Dualshock 3's used them.

[Anonymous No.8326567]

>>8325983
>Anyone here a N64 autist who knows why they made it like this?
Simple enough at the time, and actually gives you quite good fine precision. Slightly fragile, in that it can wear fast from certain kinds of gameplay, but wear can be almost entirely alleviated by appropriate lubrication (supposedly N64 controllers sold in the west weren't lubricated, for one reason or another, hence why it's common for them to have worn out analog sticks now, no idea if that's actually true).

>>8326016
It's not perfect, but it legitimately has a lot of strengths. Most analog sticks don't provide the same fast fine precision. An improved take on this old analog stick design could probably be used to make one of the best gamepads ever devised.

>>8326027
What actual advantages does potentiometer setups offer?

[Anonymous No.8326941]

>>8326027
what do you think about the stick in the Dreamcast controller? I purchased a box of 10 used in various conditions and they all work flawlessly

[Anonymous No.8326950]

>>8326567
>What actual advantages does potentiometer setups offer?

cheaper for the manufacturer

[Anonymous No.8327193]

>>8326567
>What actual advantages does potentiometer setups offer?
None. Well, they're they cheapest to manufacture. The reason Sega used hall effect is because they'd had enough failing pots in the arcades to last a lifetime, no point relying on shit tech if the solution is only a few more cents.

>>8326941
It's a hall effect stick, so in terms of drift it's solid. The pivot joint itself is better built and more linear in terms of response than the weird spring setup the 3D pad used, but it does experience some wear over time. My biggest problem is probably how the stick can rotate slightly, enough to throw off a quick movement, and the uncomfortable grip that's just hard plastic nubs that eventually wear off. It's probably the best part of the DC controller, I find most of the other design decisions they made baffling when the 3D pad got them all right the first time.

[Anonymous No.8327202]

>>8326147
Well, it's not gonna die of under use.

[Anonymous No.8327215]

Can someone please explain to me why aiming in OoT is still easier with that piece of shit than on an Xbone controller's analog in emulation?

[Anonymous No.8327219]

>>8326941
>what do you think about the stick in the Dreamcast controller?
Hurts my thumb

[Anonymous No.8327275]

>>8327215
Because the analog stick doesn't offer nearly as much fine precision, also the Boner analog stick doesn't translate 1 to 1 with true N64 input.

[Anonymous No.8327285]

>>8327275
But that's the thing, aiming is the only time it gives me that problem. The stick works perfectly for everything else, even doing walking on the edges of 3d models to go out of boundaries

[Anonymous No.8327295]

>>8326165
That gif is only shadow masks
CRTs are 15khz and 32khz forecast monitors
44.1khz is the sample rate of cd quality audio

[Anonymous No.8327298]

>>8327219
TOBLEROOOOONE

[Anonymous No.8327302]

>>8327295
>Forecast monitors
For PC monitors

[Anonymous No.8327315]

>>8326016
I dunno I’m still using my original N64 controllers from 1997. Meanwhile me joycons are drifting badly for the second time in four years and my PS4 left thumbstick stopped accepting inputs that are straight down.

[Anonymous No.8327316]

>>8327215
Other analog sticks are too accurate
Same goes for a lot of emulation unfortunately, tried to play sonic adventure on a Dreamcast emulator and it controlled like shit, played it on a Dreamcast and it controlled perfectly

[Anonymous No.8329149]

>>8326210
Cool, but DS3 also has that terrible, terrible touch connection between its boards where they're not connected at all, just touching and pushed by the shell on one side and by a piece of foam at the other.

The foam loses its elasticity over years and the controller fucks up.

It's an easy fix, but why go with this shitty planned breakdown design at all? Oh right, to make you buy more DS3s.

[Anonymous No.8329151]

>>8326016
every single goddamn fucking time

[Anonymous No.8329216]

>>8327315
>soicons
Low hanging rotten fruits.

[Anonymous No.8329220]

>>8327298

[Anonymous No.8329325]

>>8325983

How would you have done it, Mr. electrical engineer?
Keep in mind you are on a strict budget, so "take the finest electromechanical torque/angle sensor" is not a realistic approach.
You need something that is cheap, reliable and robust. Plastic parts and a few basic (VERY basic) components like an LED and a simple light sensor/diode please. Also keep in mind it's 1994/1995.

And GO!

[Anonymous No.8329573]

>>8329216
What’s your point, I should stop talking about how shit they are because they’re really shitty? Fuck off

[Anonymous No.8329832]

I'm sure that a technical description of potentiometers would sound equally complicated for a normal person.

[Anonymous No.8329954]

I love the stick for how precise it is. Moving just a tiny bit will actually register. Going across thin platforms in Mario 64 is really easy because of how easily you can correct where you're going. My only problem with the stick is that is breaks down easily. I owned 2 as a kid and never even owned Mario Party yet the insides of the bowl was covered in a layer of plastic dust.

[Anonymous No.8330512]

>>8329954
It’s not precise, it’s just perfectly tuned to n64
It’s less accurate which is better specifically for that console

[Anonymous No.8331928]

[Anonymous No.8333834]

>>8329832
not really, a potentiometer is pretty caveman-tier as far as electrical components go. It's just a resistive surface that you can move one of the contacts along, so you get more or less voltage depending on the distance between the two points. You can literally built a potentiometer out of paper.

[Anonymous No.8334242]

>>8326016
At least we can agree you're a colossal faggot, though.

[Anonymous No.8334252]

Sega had a more simple design with a magnet and sensors.

[Anonymous No.8335143]

>>8334252
There must've been a reason why they didn't all follow this.

[Anonymous No.8335274]

>>8335143
Cost. Hall effect sensors are slightly more expensive than pots. They're also a little harder to design, given you have to have a separate joystick part like that and obviously can't rely on contact to the board because they're contact-less. The potentiometer joystick is very easy to make and works well enough as long as you use decent pots.

The Saturn joystick mechanism is actually quite complex for what it is.

[Anonymous No.8335290]

>>8335274
Aren't clicky sticks easier to implement with pots?

[Anonymous No.8335332]

>>8330512
You are retarded and have no idea what you are talking about.

[Anonymous No.8335341]

>>8335332
Enjoy your drift and imprecise control I guess

[Anonymous No.8335346]

>>8335290
Sure, but clicky sticks are a gimmick and I've never found them even vaguely useful. When games require them for shit like sprinting, it's awful. Just design your layout better.

[Anonymous No.8335350]

>>8329325
>How would you have done it, Mr. electrical engineer?
A trackpad. Highly accurate and its durability will outlive you. It's also better than a trackball.

[Anonymous No.8335362]

>>8335350
Trackpads are literal dogshit and 500x worse than a trackball. I'll forever lament the invention of such a soulless input device.

Tactility is the basis of all input. Modern touch screens and trackpads come from the same school of input devices made for non-humans, and they'll never be usable.

[Anonymous No.8335371]

>>8335346
>clicky sticks are a gimmick
True, it's been my experience as well. They complicate stick design (and make them more fragile) for little gain. Underside buttons/paddles are a better choice.

[Anonymous No.8335382]

>>8335362
Got filtered by steam controller? Trackball would be great for FPS games, but not so much for platformer games where the trackball movement would control the character's speed and direction. A trackpad could easily emulate the analog stick with greater precision, on the other hand. I hate the touch screens because of how smooth and slippery the screen is, but I don't hate how laptop trackpad and steam controller feel.

[Anonymous No.8335401]

>>8335382
>Got filtered by steam controller?
I've used the HTC Vive, which has essentially the same trackpads, and it's easily the worst controller I've ever had the misfortune of using. Couldn't be bothered spending 5 bucks on a steam controller when the whole design philosophy of it is so offensive.

Trackballs are only a sensible choice for a second stick, and even then, trackballs are better when they're bigger. The smaller you make them, the crappier they get.

[Anonymous No.8335407]

>>8335401
>VR meme
That's your problem.

[Anonymous No.8335413]

>>8335407
VR's actually pretty fun
here's from a game called boneworks.
https://youtu.be/R1nMVNcuoik

[Anonymous No.8335416]

>>8335413
Nice /vr/ game.

[Anonymous No.8335420]

>>8335416
I wish vr/motion controls had progressed back in the 90's where maybe by the year 2000 we would have had stuff like this but VR truly was a meme back then.

[Anonymous No.8335853]

>>8327215
Modern gamepads ships with software deadzones. Both in the gamepad and in the drivers.
Additionally the modern joystick do not feature a mechanism that has proper linear feedback, since the spring that corrects it back to 0° do it off angle to the actual tension. Which is why the controller has software deadzones: Because you can't get the spring back to 0° correctly.

So its 3 separate issues:
-Feedback curve is different on same angles, even if emulators partially remedy this
-Deadzone problems
-Non linear resistance

[Anonymous No.8336036]

>>8335420
VR is still a meme now.

[Anonymous No.8336314]

>>8326016
There's a reason no one made a controller like that ever again.

[Anonymous No.8336663]

>>8336314
Nintendo did, less than a month ago even

[Anonymous No.8336706]

>>8336663
no they didn't, it uses pots not optical sensors. It won't be as bad as joycons but it'll experience the exact same drift as any other modern controller now.

[Anonymous No.8336862]

>>8336036
maybe the headset, but the motion controls have proven themselves. maybe if there was a way to headtrack without the goggles

[Anonymous No.8336867]

what's the best usb adapter for an original n64 controller?

[Anonymous No.8336878]

>>8336862
Good fucking luck doing Quake deathmatch on something like a VR headset.

[Anonymous No.8336912]

>>8336878
>>Didn't read my post
I said the headset was my main issue. to clarify, I like the motion controls (via the hand controllers and the headset turning your head to look at something) but I find having a screen strapped to your face is not fun after a while. What I'm saying is maybe there is some way to separate the motion controls from having the "VR" (screen in front of your face) notion. something like this but with motion controls.
https://youtu.be/TtH13iK4k9c
also about VR deathmatches
https://youtu.be/20duPsMbmnw