/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.5931781]

What happened?

[Anonymous No.5931787]

>>5931781
successful game launched a sequel
it survives to this day on mod support

[Anonymous No.5931791]

people wanted more levels, so they made more levels.

[Anonymous No.5931798]

>>5931791
>>5931787
this, also the creators were extremely lazy and they didn't create new bosses, killing the mystic of the cyberdemon and the spider mastermind, the icon of sin is a shit boss also
>no mecha hitler in the supre secret level

[Anonymous No.5931820]

rank the id iwads

[Anonymous No.5931838]

>>5931781
hype. that's what happened.

[Anonymous No.5931910]

>>5931781
Your mother didn't abort you in time.

[Anonymous No.5932168]

>>5931820
Plutonia > Doom 1 > Doom 2 > TNT > Shit > Master Levels

[Anonymous No.5932172]

>>5932168
why is plutonia much better than TNT? havent tried final doom yet

[Anonymous No.5932330]

>>5932172
TNT has a lot of shit levels that rely on cheap tricks and monster closets. But imo it has a couple of pretty amazing maps and the difficulty is on point whereas plutonia can be too difficult sometimes. At least for me anyway.

[Anonymous No.5932373]

>>5931781

They focused on expanding the tech and making new monsters. Most of the maps were made by not John Romero, who had made the best maps for Doom 1.

[Anonymous No.5933631]

>>5931798
>to win the game, you must defeat me... John Romero

[Anonymous No.5933634]

>>5931781
The focus was on multiplayer integration and new monsters, rather than atmosphere. The new mobs filled niches exceptionally. And the levels are very well thought out for multiplayer. Anyone who hasn't played Doom II co-op from level 1 to 30 in one sitting can't comment on level design compared to the first game.

[Anonymous No.5935397]

Absolute dogshit of a wad, made me stay away from Doom for a while even though I liked Doom 1.

>>5932168
This.

>>5932373
Episode 1 is a meme except E1M8

[Anonymous No.5935404]

I don't get the Doom 2 hate. The expanded bestiary made the game more fun, IMO

[Anonymous No.5935405]

>>5935397
Did you like Doom master levels?

[Anonymous No.5935409]

>>5932168

Thy Flesh Consumed > Knee Deep in the Dead > No Rest for the Living >Plutonia >Absolution (Doom 64) > Master Levels > TNT > Inferno > Shores of Hell >Hell on Earth (Doom 2)

[Anonymous No.5935416]

>>5931781
I do not like doom 2. The first half is good, but the second half drags. and the super shotgun breaks the game. It makes it too easy to wipe out most of the mid range tank enemies like the baron of hell, cacaodemon, and the revenant.

[Anonymous No.5935503]

>>5935404
Well, it did, but the levels themselves are so meh that it overrides that.
Guess its comparable to Blood's Plasma Pak for me, where the mapping community really made proper use of the new enemies whilst the actual official maps in where they first appeared were whatever.

>>5935405
Did not play it yet. How are they?

[Anonymous No.5935520]

>>5932168
Yeah I can’t really argue with this. The master levels are perfectly enjoyable though, I don’t get why you have to shit on them. It’s just a collection of user made maps.

[Anonymous No.5935675]

He shot the cyberdemon since it was trying to kill him.

[Anonymous No.5935746]

>>5931781
>Doom was a success
>make a retail sequel with new levels, new music, new monsters, new gun, partially made from leftover content you didn't get to use when making the first game
>quality of the new levels aren't quite as consistent as the first game, but most of the levels are good or decent, and there's tighter challenge
>same mod support as before (in retrospect somewhat limited)
>also make an 'Ultimate' retail package of first Doom which includes a new bonus episode, as Doom was previously only available on order
>Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 are both available in stores, sells gangbusters
>eventually release another retail pack (Final Doom) with 32+32 levels, with some top tier gameplay and challenge
>finally lead dev releases the source code, so mod support absolutely explodes
>the new monsters from Doom 2 rounds off the bestiary very well, Final Doom did an even better job showcasing a lot of the potential and utility of the expanded bestiary
>people keep making levels because the core gameplay is rock solid and there's a lot of room for experimentation
>people keep making more and more modifications as source ports allow for increasingly advanced changes
And even then people still just go back and play the base games sometimes.

[Anonymous No.5935813]

>>5931798
Wasn't about lazy, was about time. Sandy Petersen wanted to make a new boss proper, but GT Interactive (who was publishing Doom 2) didn't want to give them the time to do that, so Icon Of Sin was kind of just put together late in development from existing assets as a way to have just something new and different.

Wasn't a great bossfight, but it was better than just nothing at all.

>>5932172
Much better and more consistent level quality. It's also a lot harder (though many people love the challenge).
TNT, for having a bunch of weak maps, does have a bunch of good ones too, and a pretty good soundtrack.

>>5932330
Let's be fair now, Plutonia has some cheap tricks too.

[Anonymous No.5935830]

>>5935397
I don't agree at all. Doom 2 has a lot of really good maps.
While I think Knee Deep In The Dead is overrated, I don't think it's bad, except for E1M8, which I think is *very* weak.

>>5932373
Sort of. The monsters had already been worked on before they even decided to make a Doom 2, the models and the concept art was made during development of the first game, they just weren't finished and put to use until the sequel.

On Romero Vs. Sandy, I'd almost argue that Sandy made more good maps for Doom 1 than Romero did, because he didn't actually make all that many for the first game, nor for Doom 2 (though Romero's Doom 2 levels blow KDITD out of the water IMO, Map 29 is nothing short of exquisite).
McGee also did some pretty good levels.

[Anonymous No.5935837]

>>5935404
Level quality wavers some, not quite feeling always as good at all times, and a couple of the levels are actually stinkers.
In my opinion it also uses a bit too many brown and tan textures for certain parts of the game.

I still think it's good though. Hell, some people really don't like Chasm or Tricks & Traps, but I love them.

[Anonymous No.5935857]

>>5932168
I agree with this.
Where would you place Doom 64? Before Doom 2 for me.

[Anonymous No.5935865]

>>5935503
I think the Master Levels are kind of weak.
They were selected submissions by random users, and there's a couple of decent maps in there, but also some awful ones.
You also have just parts of a larger level series, Sverre Kvernmo's Cabal series, back when he was a noob and didn't really know how to map very well yet.

[Anonymous No.5935885]

>>5932330
I really liked TNT. Doesn't plutonia hit you with sniper chain gunners like immediately? At least in TNT you have to get halfway through the first level

[Anonymous No.5935913]

>>5935885
The whole thing with chaingunners in Plutonia really is just a meme. It's not much worse than what you'd encounter in TNT and pretty much 90% of user WADs.

[Anonymous No.5935927]

>>5935913
I suppose it is true though that you're hammered with them from the off, when most WADs tend to have a slight easing-in to the action.
But then how many players of Plutonia had never played Doom prior to that, it isn't all that bad in that context.

[Anonymous No.5936009]

>>5935885
Both TNT and Plutonia use a fair amount of Chaingunners, these were maps contracted from a third party, basically talented amateurs at the time, and back in 1995, abusing Chaingunners was fairly popular.

I personally never thought it was that bad with Chaingunners in either, but I also try to avoid their line of fire when possible.

[Anonymous No.5936047]

>>5935927
Yeah, the entire point with Plutonia was that it would provide a challenge for people who thought the original games were too easy on Ultra-Violence.

This man got a job at Valve not long after finishing Plutonia, having been their chief level designer ever since. Well, I don't know if Valve even makes any levels anymore in the 2010s, so maybe he's at his desk bored out of his skull right now, but he did a lot of the levels for Half-Life and other games.

[Anonymous No.5936117]

>>5931781
A good (albeit bland) game made on an existing engine, that spawned literally so much mod content that the modding scene is chock full of great releases to this day.

My question is: What happened to your ability to use the catalog and search for existing Doom threads, anon?

[Anonymous No.5937070]

>>5936117
>What happened to your ability to use the catalog and search for existing Doom threads, anon?
It's what faggots do, that's what happened.

[Anonymous No.5937273]

>>5931781
bad level design, especially in the mid 1/3rd of the game due to Romero/Carmack having almost nothing to do with the game and them making some random guy start learning/making maps for the game like 3 weeks before release.

[Anonymous No.5937584]

>>5937273
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.5937608]

Quake happen

[Anonymous No.5937642]

>>5937273
Four people made levels for Doom 2; John Romero, Sandy Petersen, American McGee, and Shawn Green.

John Romero had been making maps for iD Software since day one, he made most of Doom's E1, partially from Tom Hall's drafts, and he made six maps for Doom 2
Sandy Petersen was hired somewhat late in Doom's development, he made E2 and E3, using some of Tom Hall's drafts as well, and made most of Doom 2's levels, using one more of Tom Hall's drafts.
American McGee was hired after Doom, he made a dozen maps for Doom 2, one with Sandy Petersen.
Shawn Green made one map for Doom 2, arguably the shittiest one, and supposedly Sandy Petersen had to fix it because it was broken.

All of these guys also made levels for Ultimate Doom's E4

[Anonymous No.5937762]

>>5931781
Someone made a sequel to a game. People bought the game. People played the game. Oh, and this shit:
>What happened?
Anyone who posts a thread with THIS shit in the title of the thread needs to be raped to death. What the fuck is wrong with you tools?
"Daily reminder"
"Is this kino?"
"What is the best ****, and why is it ****?"
And so fucking on. Sick of this retardation. You faggots are ruining the board.

[Anonymous No.5938304]

>>5935409
>Thy Flesh Consumed being so high
Anon, did you not remember the super easy E4M4 that was just thrown into the middle of the episode? How about the fact that it has not one, but two levels with broken secrets? Then you got E4M8, a boss fight with a Spider Mastermind that is pretty much stuck in a corner. Sure, E4M1 and E4M2 exist, but much of what follows isn't really on par.

[Anonymous No.5938306]

>>5935416
As much as the super shotgun broke things, I feel like the BFG was just as bad if not worse; 1 shotting the final boss is rather cheap. Both have the argument that if you don't like them, don't use them.

[Anonymous No.5938314]

>>5935746
>Final Doom did an even better job
Final Doom came out 4 years after Doom II. By that point there were hundreds of megawads. Final Doom was just a commercialized product that showed TNT sold out; it worked well as it got more well known than Memento Mori or Icarus.

[Anonymous No.5938329]

IMO, TNT has really only a few downright unplayable maps. Mostly Central Processing. Fuck me that last stretch with the outdoor area is nearly impossible.

>other eh maps include
>wormhole
>administration center
>baron's den
>mount pain

And all of these but wormhole follow the same theme of the very tail end of the level opening up to a massive fuck fest of enemies that can hit you with impunity, while the player has likely been worn down by everything before.

[Anonymous No.5938338]

>>5938329
The concept of wormhole is cool as fuck, but MAP05 of Going Down did it way better.

[Anonymous No.5938368]

>>5938338
It doesn't help that wormhole can be broken easily and you can beat it in less than a minute

[Anonymous No.5938374]

>>5938368
there's pretty much no reason to actually play all of wormhole. the exit is available in the ten seconds and the map offers nothing like early items that the play would want to pick up.

[Anonymous No.5938437]

>>5938314
3 years. All quality megawads released at the year of Final Doom were Memento Mori I and II. TnT was on the level MM-series (at least for the first half). Icarus has aged very badly. Plutonia again is still a classic and essential to play, if you are into wads. In conclusion, Final Doom was quite great.

[Anonymous No.5938483]

>>5938314
2 years
Doom 2 came out October 1994, Final Doom came out July 1996

[Anonymous No.5938490]

>>5938437
Memento Mori 1 I think actually hasn't aged too well, Memento Mori 2 holds up a lot better. Icarus is uh... well, I'll be charitable and say that it has some good music.

TNT I think mostly stays good or decent until you're in the last third, where it kinda wobbles apart, and though there's actually a few pretty good levels around these parts, there's some which leave a lot to be desired, and some which are just awful.

[Anonymous No.5939508]

I've never played many 'classic' mega wads except for TNT and Plutonia. What is worth playing today?

I have tried Aliens TC, but it didn't seem to have aged very well.

[Anonymous No.5939550]

>>5939508
Alien Vendetta is a popularly celebrated one, made in the early 2000s. Hard as balls on UV, but more reasonable on HMP. Usually fits somewhere on people's personal top 10 lists.

Double Impact is a single episode for Doom, using all monsters and weapons available for the first game, very well made and nicely challenging. Great music.

Doom The Way Id Did It is a full megawad for Doom, the idea being to make maps which imitate the mapping style of the original level designers, one of the selling points being "If someone showed you a screenshot and told you this was an unused map for the original game, would you look at it and think that's plausible?"
It also has a sequel, Doom 2 The Way Id Did It, for Doom 2, obviously.
There's the Lost Episodes release of DTWID, which is comprised of maps rejected, mostly for coming off as too advanced to look like 1993 era Doom maps, coming complete with some bonus episodes.

Suspended In Dusk is a cool small mapset for Doom 2, which has a lot of good detail with static lighting, as well as good texture use. It'll really make you think "Wow, this grungy brutalist concrete bunker complex looks really beautiful!"

Hellbound is a Doom 2 megawad which puts a big focus on long and large maps, designed to mostly feel interconnected; the exit of a map will be designed to fit the entrance of the next map. It's like an extended adventure. The final map is very big and detailed though, and may not run so well in GzDoom.

Bloodstain is one of my personal favorites, playing very heavily on gothic 'Quakeish' aesthetics. I thought it was a great challenge, and the maps were really fun and engaging. Mind this mapset has a lot of its encounters built under the premise of using cover frequently, which some people are less enthusiastic about, though it's not like you'll just sit in place, the action is still intense and you actually need to keep moving after getting into cover, because monsters in Doom don't sit tight and wait for you.

[Anonymous No.5939567]

>>5938490
Memento Mori 1 isn't perfect (The Mansion, Kinetics and Cesspool are Metal and Habitat levels of bad), but I quite enjoy maps like Not That Simple, High-Tech Grave, Inmost Dens II, Aquaduct, House of Thorn, Twilight Lab, Showdown, Between Scattered Corpses, City of the Unavenged, Island of Death (even if its severely gimped on SP), Viper, and Hidden Slime Factory. I do agree that MM2 is a lot more consistently good, though.

Icarus has a lot of neat ideas, and even a couple good maps (Freeding Frenzy is among my favourite 90's maps), but it mostly feels rushed and unfinished. If it had been given a few more months, could've turned out a lot better.

[Anonymous No.5939574]

>>5939508
I could go on for a long time actually.
If you wanted to check out some good ones, pour through Doomworld's annual Cacowards, they're generally biased towards the taste of the clique who runs that, but still there's usually a couple of good ones showcased every year, going back uh, about 25 years now I think?
There's also Onemandoom on blogspot, where a guy goes through and just reviews all kinds of wads. If you look under the megawad tag, you could probably find some of the better ones pretty quick.

While I'm still here, I'll namedrop Mutiny, which is a really good 16ish map .wad, and Doom 64 For Doom 2, which is Doom 64's levels recreated in vanilla Doom 2.

[Anonymous No.5939595]

>>5939567
Yeah, there's a couple of pretty good maps in Icarus, but it overall feels weak.

[Anonymous No.5939724]

>>5931781
Someone set up us the bomb

[Anonymous No.5939974]

>>5939724
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOG2t8RTuc

[Anonymous No.5940660]

>>5931781
Time constraints happened

[Anonymous No.5940740]

I feel like Doom 2 needed another full-time level designer on the team to accommodate the larger level count compared to non-Ultimate Doom 1. Would've prevented the situation of having Sandy Petersen make half the levels.

[Anonymous No.5940759]

>>5939567
>>5939595
I love Icarus for the 1996 mod feel. Very imaginitive and was made before you could see what the hell you were doing when editing a map.

[Anonymous No.5941212]

>>5940740
Wouldn't have needed it if romero kept his shit together

[Anonymous No.5941862]

>>5931781
>thousands of wads
>new levels every day
one of the greatest games ever made

[Anonymous No.5941917]

>>5941862
>at least a few pretty good episodes or megawads a year
>even 25 years later
Doom has been *insane* value for my money.

[Anonymous No.5943308]

>>5937642
>Shawn Green made one map for Doom 2, arguably the shittiest one, and supposedly Sandy Petersen had to fix it because it was broken.

hot gossip item: shawn green assisted sandy petersen with most of his doom / doom 2 maps. bloodfalls is the only level that is "his" but apparently most of the sandy maps contain things shawn green made.

[Anonymous No.5943494]

>>5943308
he has no neck/chin
a mark of genius

[Anonymous No.5943605]

>>5931781
This

[Anonymous No.5943632]

>>5943308
I've heard people say that before, but never pointed it to a source or anything.

>>5943605
There were shitty ports back in the 90s as well.

[Anonymous No.5945175]

>>5939508
SIGIL. Play Sigil on Crispy Doom with the D4V mod for the ultimate retro gaming experience.

Hellground.wad is so good that I actually quit playing Doom for 5 years because I couldn't find anything to top it. If you play with Brutal Doom mod then the custom demons the map author added will just spawn as the big metal tube sprites, but you can still progress through the map, it's not a big deal.

EVITERNITY is the next big thing. I haven't played it yet but from what I've seen it's apparently the most ambitious mega wad ever created

My personal favorite shit right now is running episodes 1-3 on Nightmare with the D4V mod (In D4V Nightmare is called Ultra-Nightmare like in Doom 2016). I try to beat the entire episode without dying once. I created my own personal routes through the levels which took some time. I'm not a speedrunner so I don't care about time, I just want to complete the mission without dying, so I created routes that take me to all the mega-armors and soulsphere and the super-early rockets/plasma/chaingun/ammo backpacks. Instead of spending a ton of time pouring over the maps myself to create routes, I watched the world record nightmare speedruns to see the fastest way to end the level, and then watched the nightmare-100s runs to see exactly what is inside all the secret areas that the speedruns missed. The nm-speeds already go through a decent amount of secrets to get mega-armor etc, I just added a few secrets to my runs to grab the end-game weapons and ammo backpacks ASAP

[Anonymous No.5945176]

>>5945175
I just want to note that it IS Hellground that I mentioned and NOT Hellbound, which I have not played, and Hellground is hg.wad not hellground.wad

[Anonymous No.5945190]

Playing D4V on Crispy Doom with this music playing is bliss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbxTu-FE5vw

[Anonymous No.5945360]

>>5937642
Sandy had nothing to do with Doom's E4.
And Shawn Green's E4 maps were a significant improvement over his Doom 2 map, IMO.

[Anonymous No.5945628]

>>5945360
I coulda sworn he made at least one, but my memory betrayed me.
Yeah, Shawn's levels are a lot better in E4 than in Doom 2.