/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.10592248]

Does any of these games compare with Doom or Duke 3D?

[Anonymous No.10592262]

Not really. Blood and Shadow Warrior definitely did though.

[Anonymous No.10592271]

>>10592248
for graphics and tech maybe
but in the case of level design they are bottom of the barrel

[Anonymous No.10592275]

>>10592271
What about weapons and enemies?

[Anonymous No.10592278]

>>10592248
Not at all because it has a very strong narrative running through it via terminals. Doom etc. have better enemy encounters and varied levels but Marathon has a magnificent worldbuilding. If you like Halo in any capacity you owe it to yourself to give at least the first two a whirl. Marathon Infinity is for fans only.

[Anonymous No.10592284]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9rMu1XYB98

I know I know, youtube ecelebs but I really enjoyed this dude's summing up of the games.,

[Anonymous No.10592287]

>>10592275
I disagree with that guy - the levels serve their purpose since the first is on a mining ship and the second is buggering about on alien planetary strutures and other ships. Weapons in marathon a pretty badass but there's nothing much to use them on aside from humanoid aliens and suicidal androids. The double shotgun would be a sight to behold in Doom/Duke and worth it alone. Flamethrowers are always nasty too.

[Anonymous No.10592295]

[Anonymous No.10592301]

>>10592271
I'm going to challenge this. There are some generic arena levels, a handful of extremely bullshit puzzle levels, but there are also a lot of really solid puzzle levels which I'd argue are the series' strength (at least in terms of gameplay)
>>10592275
Weapons are solid. Some are generic, you get a full arsenal of basically standard shooter fare, but the dual wieldable sawed off double barreled shotgun is up there as one of the best vidya shotguns evar.

[Anonymous No.10592421]

>>10592248
Can't really compare the first game to Doom, it feels a little closer to a dungeon crawler in space with all the mazes, which makes sense since it came after Pathways Into Darkness. It's not really a full dungeon crawler like Ultima Underworld either though, it's still more of an fps.

Second game is more action heavy with less confusing levels and probably the best entry point if you want to try the games. Also the most satisfying shotgun in any game.

And then Infinity is back to mazes and confusing as fuck but a masterpiece in the writing. They all have good writing and atmosphere and flashes of craziness, but Infinity was even more no holds barred.

And multiplayer against friends was great fun back in the day. I have no idea how it works nowadays though.

[Anonymous No.10592465]

>>10592248
Marathon was one of the earlier FPSes to do story right. In this regard it's going for something different than Doom. It has less iconic levels, less impressive enemies, and while the weapons are slightly worse, they feel overall more cohesive. Also, more of a cool factor since you can duel-wield some weapons.

[Anonymous No.10592480]

>>10592421
Okay, OP here. So if I've never played it before, the second game is a good place to start?

[Anonymous No.10592491]

>>10592480
nta, but yea Durandal is a good place to start. It's got both the most straightforward levels and the most straightforward heroic story. It's ok to start with 2 and go back to 1 if you decide you like the series.
1 is definitely worth playing, but it has Colony Ship For Sale Cheap...

[Anonymous No.10592506]

>>10592301
challenge accepted
'generic' seems to be a good word for them actually
the maps are functional in marathon but thats about it
I mean can you name any level that has character or memorable?
any level you would want to replay?
e.g. circle of death or barrels of fun from doom?
or death row or rabid transit.. etc from duke?

[Anonymous No.10592553]

>>10592506
In Marathon 1? That's the Marathon game I have the least attachment to. I mostly remember the first several levels, the level with no oxygen where you're going and recalibrating antennae or something, the one with the lava, Colony Ship For Sale Cheap, Durandal transporting you to the alien ship, and the ending: and I don't particularly enjoy going back to M1.

But Durandal I've played a few times. I quite like the first half of that game . Waterloo Waterpark, Charon Doesn't Make Change, Come and Take Your Medicine, We're Everywhere, and Ex Cathedra I all particularly like. They do have a lot of character and sell the sense of exploring alien ruins and Pfhor garrisons.
Then the level Begging for Mercy Makes Me Angry is extremely memorable, because it has some extremely subtle but effective environmental storytelling: You're destroying Durandal's AI core iirc, and the level design gets crazier and crazier, visually and layout wise, as you destroy parts of this AI. It's sort of this weird parallel or visual metaphor: idk, something is going on with that level and it struck me as extremely creative. The level *looks* like an AI going crazy. (There's actually some of this metaphor stuff going on in the first game too, where the level design reflects the story, and I do remember those aspects, but M2 sticks out a bit more obviously).

I remember basically the entirety of Marathon: Infinity and I'm not going to list off every level due to character limit, but most of that game is burned into my brain. The surrealist levels like Eat the Path particularly stick out, but there's some other great stuff like the prison break sequence, every timeline variation of Aye Mak Sicur, Son of Grendel/Strange Aeons for the Thoth activation sequence, the one where you're dropped into a literal gladitorial arena with infinite ammo spawns

Yea, no there's good stuff in these games.

[Anonymous No.10592601]

I didn't enjoy the terminal hunting in the game. It's like key hunting but easy to forget you didn't check the terminal before, or that you need to check it again after doing something and they also all look the same.

[Anonymous No.10592627]

>>10592553
I can tell that you like the games
and I'm not arguing that they are not enjoyable or bad
what I'm saying is that the levels are closer to Dark Forces or Alien Breed 3D than Doom or Duke
not sure how to best describe what I mean:
>there are too many large areas with randomly placed tech textures
>there seem to be a lack of landmarks
of course its nowhere as bad as e.g. system shock 1 where it just feels like random never ending mazes

[Anonymous No.10592674]

>>10592480
Yeah I'd definitely start with the second.

[Anonymous No.10592720]

Marathon is better than Doom hands-down and totally different than duke anyways

>>10592271
eh...

[Anonymous No.10592723]

>>10592491
you should start with the original. It has music, a better setting and plot, and some oddities like vacuum and BOB levels

[Anonymous No.10592745]

>>10592248
Has the best ever level design of any 90s shooter.

[Anonymous No.10592996]

2 is excellent, 3 is pretty good too
1 is mostly fine but is infamous for having one of the worst levels of all time, Colony Ship for Sale, Cheap

[Anonymous No.10593153]

>>10592627
Idk. I feel those complaints mostly apply to the first game ... and I mean I would agree with those complaints. 1 is rough. In Durandal the levels actually look like places though, and then with Marathon: Infinity some of the levels are downright inspired, visually and layout-wise.
I mean sure it’s not Duke Nukem, but it’s also meant to simulate alien landscapes, not 90’s Earth locations.

[Anonymous No.10593212]

>>10592553
>the level design gets crazier and crazier, visually and layout wise
>It's sort of this weird parallel or visual metaphor: idk, something is going on with that level and it struck me as extremely creative. The level *looks* like an AI going crazy.
They previously did this in M1, though maybe you don't remember it
In the first few levels, the game is fairly "normal" in the sense that you have an ally who tries to guide you with maps and objectives
Then you get kidnapped and not only does Durandal give you zero help, but the layout of the level itself is utter nonsense with dead ends everywhere, broken doors, switches that just do nothing, and windows into nowhere in particular

[Anonymous No.10593235]

>>10593212
haha i did mention this in the post.
The Marathon 2 level sticks out to me a bit more though: I think because the Marathon 1 level design metaphor gag rides on the context of the ending terminal of the preceding level, where the M2 AI core destruction level you can see the level getting crazier as you destroy the AI core segments.
M1 is more understated.
But I mean you’re right, and I think the “level design metaphor” joke in M1 is helpful to understanding the point of the series.

[Anonymous No.10593247]

>>10592248
I always get lost in 2 like a few missions in and can't figure out where the fuck to go. It's that mission that has an area with water in it.

[Anonymous No.10593264]

>>10593247
hahaha, anon you’re going to have to be more specific because almost every level in the first half of Durandal has water

[Anonymous No.10593268]

>>10593264
it's the first one with water, I think. Theres like a part where there's like a passage overlooking a little area of water you can fall/jump down from into the water too. Its been a while since I tried

[Anonymous No.10593272]

>>10593268
The first level?

[Anonymous No.10593284]

>>10593272
I don't know, is the first level really fucking long or something? Pretty sure it was a few missions in. I dont know. I'm sure its some terminal shit or something, do you have to revisit the same terminals you've already read from time to time?

[Anonymous No.10593292]

>>10593284
Sometimes, yes
The first level is similar to what you're describing but it's pretty straightforward compared to shit like the one where you're supposed to break into a church

[Anonymous No.10593296]

>>10593292
Hm. I should probably give it another go. I'm sure it's terminal related. I want to like it, it's cool, I just remember not knowing where tf to go.

[Anonymous No.10593298]

>>10593292
Anon’s probably not talking about the first level, but there are a lot of levels he could be talking about.

[Anonymous No.10593306]

>>10593298
Yeah they were really proud of their water physics

[Anonymous No.10593815]

>>10592248
It's worth playing considering that they're free. The first one is a bit of a chore with how mazy and sluggish it feels. The second one is an immediate improvement and the best of the trilogy. The third one is a continuation of the second but a little mazy again. The best thing of the trilogy is the story and the world it builds. View it as proto Half Life. More of a sci fi adventure than a shooting game.

[Anonymous No.10593838]

>>10593815
I generally would agree, but Infinity is something that gets better and better the more time you invest in it.

[Anonymous No.10594004]

>>10592275
Besides the shotgun and flamethrower mentioned, Infinity's Flechette gun is really underrated. It was very satsfying to use, especially in multiplayer. The rocket launcher was great fun in multiplayer too of course, though a lot of laughs were had over accidentally blowing yourself, which happened a lot. Also the punching is pretty cool since you can kill with a single punch if you're running towards your enemy.

[Anonymous No.10594109]

>>10593815
I feel like if you turned 2001: A Space Odyssey into an FPS - the HAL section, I mean - you'd get something similar to Marathon.

[Anonymous No.10594132]

>>10594109
Tbh, that's underselling it. And that's saying something because 2001 is a great movie. There's just so much going on in Marathon story-wise

[Anonymous No.10594409]

In Doom you’re constantly running towards something and gunning. Marathon is much slower pace and story driven. Durandal has you running away from shit.

[Anonymous No.10594535]

>>10593838
True, but I feel like it gets unnecessarily complex desu. Maybe I'm just dumb but even after watching videos about it I still find myself scratching my head about certain things. Nonetheless I still respect it considering how ambitious it was.

>>10594109
I can see that but just as >>10594132 said it really is it's own thing in terms of how it uses the AI trope. I've never seen it in other sci fi media before. If anything, it's like 3 different HAL's butting heads against each other and you're just caught up in the crossfire. And that's only a part of the story.

[Anonymous No.10594593]

>>10592248
The OG Marathon is unmatched. The second and Infinity are pretty ass tho.

[Anonymous No.10594670]

>>10593235
I guess I'm biased towards 1 because Blaspheme Quarantine was the level where I had to take a break because I realized they were doing level design for the purpose of character development and it blew my mind
I can't blame anyone for not picking up on that in the first game because their technique was still very... let's say "unrefined"
It would be fucking awesome to see a "remaster" of the first game with the higher level of detail they regularly achieved in 2 and Infinity and no other changes
>>10592996
>Colony Ship for Sale, Cheap
Okay maybe one other change

[Anonymous No.10594709]

What's the best way to play Marathon? What kind of vintage Hardware and OS do you need to play it that way?
I have quite a few Macintoshs that should be capable of playing this game.

[Anonymous No.10594801]

>>10594709
AlephOne is the easiest way to play it on modern computers.
https://alephone.lhowon.org/

If you want to play it on old hardware you'd need a pre-OSX Mac, probably not earlier than from the second half of the 90s.

But easiest way is to just play AlephOne. It comes with everything, except Forge I guess (Forge was a program for making maps that came with the third game) but I think there's other tools for that today.

[Anonymous No.10594978]

>>10594801
So OS9... What about other hardware requirements. I'm sure my Double Mirror Door could handle it, but I'd like to know if I could make my older horizontal desktop macs run it.

[Anonymous No.10595027]

Marathon has good mods floating around as well. RED for instance, but also newer ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjr0-n17zBA

[Anonymous No.10595039]

>>10594978
Minimum specs for Infinity seem to be pretty low, it needs MacOS 7 and apparently should work on a 68K mac with 8mb of ram:
https://www.mobygames.com/game/22353/marathon-infinity/specs/

For reference, back in the day I played it on a Performa 5400CD (120mhz ppc processor with 16mb of ram) and thought it ran pretty smoothly on that at least, though everything's relative of course and it was a long time ago.

[Anonymous No.10595483]

>>10595027
I've had mixed results trying to play old mods in Aleph One
I think RED crashed it on the first level

[Anonymous No.10595694]

>>10594978
Envious of your hardware anon, sometimes I miss my old mac and wish I still had it around. If you get the games running on more than one machine, you could try connecting them for multiplayer over appletalk too.

[Anonymous No.10595785]

Thing What Kicks is my bane
I can never find the room with the little bits to punch

[Anonymous No.10595857]

>>10595483
I have played red on Aleph one so that can't be it

[Anonymous No.10596173]

>>10594132
>>10594535
It's much more complicated than just that, yes, but it's a good starting point for describing the game. The story is rather complicated and I don't really know what else to compare it to when recommending it to friends.

[Anonymous No.10597821]

>>10596173
>solitary hero runs around with a gun
>imprisoned evil genius takes advantage of the chaos to escape and exact his revenge
I like to compare the first game to Silence of the Lambs

[Anonymous No.10597840]

>>10596173
>>10597821
Forgot an important detail
>evil genius speaks in obnoxious riddles and flirts with the hero THE ENTIRE TIME

[Anonymous No.10597867]

>>10596173
>>10597821
>>10597840
Durandal and Tycho rank as some of the best characters in gaming

[Anonymous No.10599912]

>>10593247
The fifth level, maybe?

>Come and Take your Medicine is one of the most bizarre of all the Marathon levels. Here you have this immense level with a complex network of underwater passageways with lifts and an extensive outdoor area, and all you're expected to do is to follow Durandal's short prescribed path.

http://marathon.bungie.org/vidmaster/vidtipmedicine.html

[Anonymous No.10599964]

>>10592278
>you owe it to yourself
nah

[Anonymous No.10601468]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNXcnGHE4Y&pp=ygUYbWFyYXRob24gcmV2aWV3IDY1c2NyaWJl

[Anonymous No.10601486]

>>10592248

2 is the one most worth playing. 1 feels like a prototype, 3's story is Rick & Morty fan fiction.

[Anonymous No.10601508]

>>10601486
>infinity is basically, if not essentially, Rick and Morty Fanfiction.
RIIIIIIIIIIGHHHHHT...
>Marathon Infinity release date: 1996
>Rick and Morty first Season Premier: December 2013.
Nope.

[Anonymous No.10601514]

>>10592248
There are some pain in the ass parts, but this is a great game with story to match, plus amazing multiplayer fun every Tuesday night!

[Anonymous No.10601785]

>>10601508
They time travelled to the 90s and influenced Greg Kirkpatrick to become a depressed alcoholic

[Anonymous No.10601794]

They are superior to Doom in every way. Really the difference in what you are getting with these games is the aesthetic and tone. Marathon is the first story driven fps ever made with a hard scifi setting.
Doom is satanism and arcadey.
Duke is American grunge with tongue in cheek comedy.

[Anonymous No.10601809]

>>10601794
>Marathon is the first story driven fps ever made with a hard scifi setting.
It was released two months after System Shock, but in the interest of not derailing the thread into an argument over game genres, let's just say Marathon was groundbreaking, and an incredible achievement on a platform that was actively inhospitable to video games

[Anonymous No.10602319]

>>10601809
>an argument over game genres
If we include System Shock as an FPS, I guess I'll be that Mac autist who mentions The Colony from 1988. It was an FPS/adventure game hybrid. Difficult as fuck game though.

[Anonymous No.10602341]

>>10602319
Does it predate Star Cruiser? That one was first released in May, 1988

[Anonymous No.10602354]

>>10601486
Hard disagree. 3 is the best of the lot.

[Anonymous No.10602379]

>>10602341
August '88 on Mac, Dec '88 on DOS, according to PCGW.

[Anonymous No.10602381]

>>10602341
Mobygames says August release, so Star Cruiser seems to have been a little earlier.

The developer has a great write-up about The Colony here:
https://www.croquet.zone/2005/02/my-colony-memoir.html
Worth reading for the story about one of the bugs if nothing else.

[Anonymous No.10602697]

I guess it may be my lack of experience with the genre at large, but I really enjoyed Marathon 1. Even the twisty little mazes didn't bother me much, as my mind was in a Metroid-ish adventurer mode, where navigating the environment was more important than killing enemies.

[Anonymous No.10602707]

>>10602697
You have more patience than me ... I got lost several times in M1 and liked M2 for being a little more straightforward.

[Anonymous No.10602719]

>>10602697
>>10602707
How can you get too lost when there's a map and the terminals often point out where you have to go specifically?

[Anonymous No.10602727]

>>10602719
the multiple levels of the map. Its only a few levels that did it to me, but i got filtered by 1 a few times before i completed it

[Anonymous No.10602754]

>>10592248
No, they're actually legit terrible. Even Chex Quest is more fun.

[Anonymous No.10603271]

>>10602719
In some areas the map is totally fucking useless because of overlapping geometry and the inability to show floors of different heights in different colors
The first level is a great example with the air vent clusterfuck
You can start to wrap your head around it once you're intimately familiar with what it looks like from inside but that means the screenshots in terminals don't help at all
This problem might be why the Doom mapping tools didn't allow overlapping sectors even though the engine can actually handle it
t. different anon who beat all these games over 10 years ago

[Anonymous No.10603714]

>>10601486
marathon plays better in cramped spaces and most of 2 is outdoors with themes that just get tired after a while. The only truly ranged weapon you have past 100m is the pistol.

[Anonymous No.10604768]

>>10602319
You have a valid point but I still support including System Shock in retro FPS discussions as a great example of FPS games before DOOM. Though it would've been better if System Shock was built with a DOOM influenced engine and taken the place of Strife as the boundary pushing FPS RPG.

[Anonymous No.10604779]

>>10604768
>System Shock
>FPS games before DOOM
>1994 before 1993

[Anonymous No.10604794]

>>10604779
They were figuring out the concept of the game during 1992 while finishing up Ultima Underworld II. So while not a FPS game as we know it after DOOM the ideas where still all there (first person view and usage of guns) but from an older perspective.

[Anonymous No.10604853]

>>10604794
Ah, okay

[Anonymous No.10605132]

>>10603271
I'll admit one of the few problems I have with the game is my head nearly exploding from trying to understand some of the more complex map screens.
The worst is when you get lost in a level full of BOBs who keep blocking hallways.

[Anonymous No.10606914]

>>10604794
In that case, do we count Pathways Into Darkness? It came out before Doom

[Anonymous No.10607548]

>>10601514
Just grenade jump your way out

[Anonymous No.10608312]

>>10592271
>but in the case of level design they are bottom of the barrel
that's the best part

[Anonymous No.10609532]

>>10606914
Well is it System Shock good? If yes then sure.

[Anonymous No.10609609]

>>10609532
No.

[Anonymous No.10610252]

>>10592248
It's the Xenogears/MGS of FPS writing.