Tom Kalinske and his team at Sega of America painted an idealistic image of themselves. Now, finally, Sega of Japan is telling the other side of the story.

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Anonymous Tue Jul 11 10:34:56 2023 No.10056574 [Reply] [Original]

Tom Kalinske and his team at Sega of America painted an idealistic image of themselves. Now, finally, Sega of Japan is telling the other side of the story.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 10:37:22 2023 No.10056576 You really trust a jap?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 10:49:07 2023 No.10056595 That is actually a good point there. I wonder how many "sales numbers" out there don't include come backs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 10:52:42 2023 No.10056601 SoJ just came in and rugpulled a bunch of money away from Americans because they knew the Saturn was going to eat shit everywhere.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 11:48:54 2023 No.10056690 File: 25 KB, 330x431, 330px-Tom_Kalinske_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10056574 >Tom Kalinske What's he doing now? Maybe he'll come out of the woodwork and correct the record.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 11:51:15 2023 No.10056695 If only Bernie had taken over SoA earlier we might had a chance

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 11:51:31 2023 No.10056696 >>10056574 What's the point of this thread when there's already the 32X thread and ten different Saturn appreciation threads I like Saturn but its fans are cuckoo

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 11:53:50 2023 No.10056706 I don’t know who to fucking believe anymore. Tom? Bernie? SOJ? What a fucking mess holy shit.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 12:03:51 2023 No.10056724

>>10056706
There is no "bad guy" in SEGA, only miscommunications based on what was popular between regions. Americans really liked Genesis, Japan really liked arcade games and Saturn. Neither of them were really in the wrong. They both just wanted what was best for the company based on what they could observe from their standpoint

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 12:18:41 2023 No.10056747 File: 163 KB, 936x1200, b98bea6ce1f3de77d0d69a034fb8c080.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10056574 Who's this literally who guy? Didn't see him in the cover of any magazine.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 12:25:53 2023 No.10056765 >>10056695 with what?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 12:33:07 2023 No.10056785 >>10056747 >Strong Jawline >That Non-Flouride Stare >Demeanor that mesmerizes you to buy console add-ons Alpha

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 13:49:29 2023 No.10056953 >>10056576 More than a jew? Of course. Learn history.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 13:52:32 2023 No.10056962

>>10056724
It's not that Japan didn't like the Mega Drive, it's just that PC Engine was really popular.
To make matters worse, in 5th gen, Sony entered the game, penetrating the market with aggressive money-burning multimillion marketing.
SoA was lucky the TG-16 didn't caught up in the west and they could fill in the gap between NES and SNES time frame, and then get Sonic by 1991 (which came from Japan).
But overall, Sega were unlucky that the competition was very strong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 13:59:50 2023 No.10056975 File: 268 KB, 1200x1139, Sonic_2sday_shipment_badge.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Happy 2sday, by the way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMKAq-abSE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mn-yHCU1EY

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 14:17:58 2023 No.10057006

>>10056574
Sega of America did certainly have massive amounts of excess inventory in the mid-90's according to the recent leaks.
Whether that was down to them being morons, being faced with unrealistic expectations from SoJ or trying to pump up numbers maliciously is up for debate.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 14:44:42 2023 No.10057051

SEGA of Europe wasn't any better. I remember even small time dept. stores that didn't really do a major trade in video games would have WALLS of cheap MD games. 20 copies of Last Battle, 15 Space Harrier IIs, 10 Striders, etc. It was obviously stock dumping. Write down thousands of "sales" of product to get your numbers up and then do a stock swap with all the unsold stock at the end of the contract term. I imagine by the end of '94 with MD software becoming thin on the ground there was no more big selling games you could hide your losses in and they had to start being honest about those "sales."

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 14:47:02 2023 No.10057057 >>10056574 Seems like the whole SoJ vs SoA thing was just Tom Kalinske vs Everybody. Tom also launched the he-man line of toys in the 80s which were huge, but died quickly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 14:48:49 2023 No.10057070 >>10057057 Yes but do you not agree he ran SOA better than it was before? The problem was the shit he did to get them successful wasn’t enough to keep them successful. I think he was too emotionally attached to the Genesis.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 14:53:31 2023 No.10057081

>>10057070
I think he succeeded with the Genesis product launch but with all the dirty laundry getting aired out the past few years, it's clear he couldn't sustain the product and the internal teams were often sabotaging products for petty reasons. Gunstar Heroes was a huge success but the manager in charge of orders literally took off a zero at the end of the order count to spite another employee. The game ended up selling through and needed another order which took months to fulfill.

Kalinske can launch a project but can't manage a team to sustain it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 14:56:09 2023 No.10057085 File: 78 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault-512101467.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10057057 He-man had a serious quantity over quality with its toy line. I'm seeing a pattern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn14qt9wFE8

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 11 15:07:01 2023 No.10057104 >>10056574 All Im getting from this is SoA was harmed by sabotoge during the 32x vs Saturn ordeal, but it was because they overstocked the Genesis and it's software way too hard. Although the system sold great, they simply ordered too much still.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 15:14:10 2023 No.10057121

>>10057104
That's not overstocking, that's retail stuffing. You'll see it all the time in retail. Someone's bonus is dependant on units transferred to retailers but not on returns, so they give retailers mega deals, "book now, pay later" PO terms on 2x, 3x the stock they need. Everyone knows no one will actually sell that much, it's just going to sit in the warehouse. And they certainly aren't ever going to PAY those invoices in full, but you get to book those "future profits" against your dept.
You see it when companies are trying to go public, or trying to get bought by a larger company. Inflate the numbers on the books by overstuffing the retail channel, hope to close the deal before the scam gets outed. Depending on who you're scamming it can be criminal fraud so it's never a great idea. And you always get found out eventually. Someone asks why we always seem to be in debt yet have such huge profits. An audit is requested and the scam is uncovered. People get politely asked to step down and it gets hushed up for 25 years.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 15:37:30 2023 No.10057187

>>10057070
I guess he assumed American buyers were still largely averse to the concept of upgrading and replacing an existing console. Only a few years before Nintendo had to deal with backlash over the move from NES to SNES, with tech illiterate parents thinking they were being screwed and not understanding why these new games couldn't just work on their current system. It died down over time, but it took years for the cycle to really sink in with the culture.

https://youtu.be/MTzyz2TgGls

We'd even see a major repeat of that years down the line with the Wii to Wii U, beyond the marketing fuck ups, with a lot of that new audience the Wii brought in not understanding the idea that there'd eventually be new, more advanced games their Wii Sports machine couldn't run.

Anonymous Tue Jul 11 19:13:08 2023 No.10057724

>>10057121
>That's not overstocking, that's retail stuffing.

this. And they do it in Japan too but its way more regimented and based on social status and the hierarchy for who does which with what company. Highly suspect thats also why the Saturn ended up with Hitachi guts, and Dreamcast changed to powerVR last second.

Someone's back was getting scratched

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 00:50:54 2023 No.10058513 >>10057070 >>10057081 Wasn't it Katz who did the launch of the Genesis along with the "Genesis Does" campaign? I thought Kalinske only took over afterwards.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 01:01:08 2023 No.10058539 >>10058513 Yeah, Kalinske came in during that. Kalinske's first big move at Sega was making Sonic the pack-in with Genesis, much to the chagrin of SoJ and Hayao Nakayama.

Anonymous Wed Jul 12 01:04:30 2023 No.10058547

>>10058513
Yes, it was Katz who advertised the Genesis with that slogan (it launched a month prior to his involvement with SEGA), it was because he didn't want to promote Sonic that he was replaced by Kalinske. I read an amusing quote from him in regards to these advertisements being solely credited to Kalinske:
>It really irks me that subsequent Sega management has taken credit for a lot of this. They ought to study their history a little better, “get a life,” and try to take credit for what they really did or didn’t do. - Michael Katz
Source: https://www.sega-16.com/2006/04/interview-michael-katz/

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 01:12:19 2023 No.10058570 >>10056574 So Genesis sales were never actually that strong in the USA?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 01:46:43 2023 No.10058647 >>10058570 no the genesis was. but the gamegear, and other inventory probably not as much as initially indicated.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:18:57 2023 No.10058834 >>10058570 Genesis Mortal Kombat revenue alone should have made the Japanese happy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:29:19 2023 No.10058863 Can someone just tell me if I should hate SOA or SOJ already

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:31:15 2023 No.10058870 >>10056574 What surprises me the most is that the Mega Drive was the clear loser of its generation in Japan. Everyone already knows Sega of America were huge pieces of shit that ruined the company by corporate espionage.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:40:20 2023 No.10058880 >>10058863 Japan clearly didn't know what they were doing in the last half of the 90s until they finally surrendered to Sony's obvious superiority.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:41:47 2023 No.10058882 >>10058870 Well, Dreamcast was good (or was it?) and that was done by Japan, so, if SOJ had had full control then they might have made something more Dreamcast like instead of the Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:46:06 2023 No.10058891 >>10058880 Hate both, because they both clearly had their own issues and failed in the long term as a result.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:47:33 2023 No.10058896 >>10058882 Well it lost to not one but 2 companies. That's never a success. Between PS2 and Halo fans they never had a chance.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:48:59 2023 No.10058901 >>10058863 Both made mistakes, but Sega of America's by far did the most damage.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:52:48 2023 No.10058909 >>10058882 Saturn was a Hit in Japan. Dreamcast only did okay. Some people think it released too soon and the Dreamcast competed against the Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:53:49 2023 No.10058912 >>10058901 THIS How many great games never made to the United States because of SOA?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:55:49 2023 No.10058918 >>10058863 Hate both. It's easier.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 03:57:37 2023 No.10058920 >>10058912 What was so great that I never read about the weeaboo reviwers clamoring for the import like Ranma for SNES?

Anonymous Wed Jul 12 04:02:05 2023 No.10058935

>>10058912
Even more so, name one good game Sega of America made that wasn't made by a Japanese team in the US or a game they slapped their people on for a bunch of testing and localization credits, or one they outsourced. The only one I can think of is Comix Zone.

>>	Batowl Wed Jul 12 04:05:19 2023 No.10058936 >>10056574 The WCW of video games. Shame they dont make systems anymore and lots of games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 04:20:19 2023 No.10058956 >>10058920 Monster World 4 and Alien Soldier are the biggest two we missed out on. Pulse Man could have been cool here. And there were several RPG's that never made it here like Langrisser II.

Anonymous Wed Jul 12 04:27:01 2023 No.10058962
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>>10058912
Safe to say any game published by Sega of Japan that didn't make it to the states was because of Sega of America so that would include:
>Monster World 4
>King Colossus
>Rent A Hero
>Super Fantasy Zone
>Battle Golfer Yui
>Surging Aura
I'm certain this list is incomplete, but I woudn't know of any others. If we include relegating games to Sega Channel exclusively in America as not released, then we have Alien Soldier, Pulseman, and Wily Wars. Then there's the many first-party games they undermarketed, with Gunstar Heroes of all games almost not making it to America because they thought the graphics weren't as good as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsXGXsHvH8k
>>10058956
>Langrisser II
To be fair RPGs are costly to localize and it was a 3rd party game as well

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 04:53:33 2023 No.10059012 >>10058912 >How many great games never made to the United States because of SOA? why don't you tell me because like it or not that time period was when kids only wanted 3d games so 2d stuff wasn't going to sell well enough

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 04:56:12 2023 No.10059016 >>10059012 see >>10058956 I enjoyed 3D but I hated the low quality cash grab shovelware.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 04:58:33 2023 No.10059020 >>10059016 looks like nothing was lacking by skipping those

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:05:50 2023 No.10059036 >>10058863 Both. They both fucked up in very different ways. SoA for misreading the market and SoJ for being terrible at communicating with the western branch.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:06:22 2023 No.10059038 >>10059020 Yea, sure thing. I hope you've enjoyed the last twenty years of garbage 3D final fantasy games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:07:26 2023 No.10059041 >>10059038 none of those would have saved the console.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:12:03 2023 No.10059053 >>10058935 SoA was responsible for the reputation of the Genesis the gained for having bad graphics and sound by being personally responsible for creating and pushing games with bad graphics and sound. Bad gameplay is a given in this case.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:21:16 2023 No.10059072 >>10058935 I liked Kid Chameleon and The Ooze but they have a middling reputation to say the least.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:30:13 2023 No.10059086 >>10059072 KC was was about as fun as a Genesis platformer came though it needed more various level content as well as the 50 outfits.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 05:37:28 2023 No.10059102 >>10059041 I wanted to play the games on the console I already owned. Nobody gave a shit about saving the console in 1994 retard.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 08:03:43 2023 No.10059335 >>10056695 With more fmv retardation? Shut the fuck up

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 08:04:44 2023 No.10059337 >>10056706 Bernie is a jew and he hated rpgs and anime Go ahead and throw his opinion right out the window

Anonymous Wed Jul 12 08:44:59 2023 No.10059416

>>10056724
No, the 32x was a huge mistake, it killed the brand in the US so by the time the Saturn came out no one trusted sega. The genesis was old and was showing it's age, they needed the next gen but a stop gap between the genesis and the saturn pissed off and confused fans.
They needed to focus on making games for the genesis to maintain their brand and also for the saturn for a good launch.
Instead they wasted time, money and dev time on the 32x that should have been spent on the saturn.
If the genesis was so popular they thought they didn't need the saturn yet, why create the 32x that split the userbase and robbed the genesis of games? The segacd already did that but it offered a clear reason for existing, things only the cd could do but pushing it twice with the 32x and actually splitting the genesis into three different camps was just too much.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 08:49:11 2023 No.10059426 If SoA could have sold themselves to Sony as a game dev they would have. Saturn was garbage.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 11:44:52 2023 No.10059660 Al Nilsen was the MVP at Sega of America, He blocked the release of the 32X several times, it wasn't until he already left the company that SoA had free rein to release it. https://youtu.be/dDiLS4758-s?t=2245

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 12:52:57 2023 No.10059813 >>10056706 Believe women

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 12:55:20 2023 No.10059818 File: 63 KB, 720x621, 90705AE9-EE7D-4E36-B764-C6776E250AD2.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10056724 Deep

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 12:57:57 2023 No.10059826 >>10057085 Mattel flooded stores one year with excess inventory to inflate sales numbers, which led to the death of motu. >toy fag

Anonymous Wed Jul 12 13:21:17 2023 No.10059865

>>10059660
Very cool video. But he claimed both he and Tom were against the 32X. Also he said he went to Japan and they showed off the 32X and that's when he realised it wouldn't work, but the SOJ guy were saying that SOA didn't want to release the Saturn and kill off the Genesis, so SOA specifically requested the 32X be created.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 14:32:52 2023 No.10060018 So SoA was too attached to the Genesis and SoJ was too attached to the Saturn?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 14:36:17 2023 No.10060024 >>10059426 >SoA >game dev Also, never trust Sony when it comes to dev studios, they often cannibalize good ones into their soulless corpo, annihilating creativity.

Anonymous Wed Jul 12 14:43:48 2023 No.10060039

>>10060018
Yes, SoJ also capitulated to SoA by designing the 32x for them after Tom's comment about not wanting to sell a $500 game console. SoA got their life extension for the Genesis and botched it while SoJ wanted to move forward because by 1993 the Genesis was in sharp decline in America - in fact 1993 was a video game crash. Everything was down.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 15:06:51 2023 No.10060079 Who owns the rights to Jet Set Radio and will we ever see another game in the series? Sounds like both of those guys are covering up something.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 16:11:58 2023 No.10060190 >>10056696 Good point, and it's still better than all those faggot circlejerking Zelda threads

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 16:20:20 2023 No.10060212 what morons, all they had to do was make good games

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 17:36:50 2023 No.10060360 >>10060079 SEGA has always owned the rights to Jet Set Radio, and some video has leaked recently conforming the existence of a potential sequel from an investor video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjpRhxm00kI

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 17:37:38 2023 No.10060362 >>10060360 >leaks omg go back to plebbit or youtube or whatever

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 17:50:56 2023 No.10060394 >>10060024 Microsoft did the same thing and they survived. It's like the market completely changed to conglomerate politics or something.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 19:14:15 2023 No.10060616 >>10058909 >Saturn was a Hit in Japan it was basically a virtua fighter machine if you look at sales figures of most saturn games in japan, they're actually very low. people bought it solely for virtua fighter and sakura wars

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 19:20:02 2023 No.10060634 >>10059337 >he hated rpgs and anime But that's correct

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 19:22:58 2023 No.10060639 >>10056574 I knew Kalinkse was full of shit, he claimed Sega was the market leader in USA over Nintendo

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 19:27:52 2023 No.10060653 >>10060616 It was a minor hit in Japan and possibly in South Korea, where Samsung made licensed Clones for the market over there. It did manage to outsell the N64 over in the East. >>10060634 >BuT ThAt'S cOrReCt OK fuckbumper

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 20:12:12 2023 No.10060763 >>10059337 >Bernie is a jew sega was created by them, just like Taito

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 12 20:33:34 2023 No.10060806 >>10060360 Thanks for sharing, fuck that other retard.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 03:29:48 2023 No.10061987
File: 62 KB, 1046x929, SoA Investments.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It seems Irimajiri made further statements on the financial state of Sega of America, most notably that Sega Technical Institute was bleeding 60 to 80 MILLION a year. On top of that, Sega of America had expensive ventures that would never pan out, like Sega VR and Midwest Studio, who would only make a single sports entry and an awful fighting game port before closing. In total, these ventures would lose them hundreds of millions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 04:32:08 2023 No.10062157 >>10058962 If they were worried about those games being too Japanese-y, then they could’ve localized it to give it a more US-friendly appeal.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 04:35:13 2023 No.10062165 >>10062157 Localization costs money

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:05:34 2023 No.10062256

>>10058870
IIRC it had something to do with "just" being outdone by the PC Engine at the time. Everyone bought a Famicom in 83 and then in 87 people bought a PC Engine as it was the new console at the time. Then Mega Drive came out in 88 and no one really gave a shit in Japan.

In a way, it's like how people have a Switch for Nintendo exclusives and a PS5 for *real* games.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:08:38 2023 No.10062264

>>10059865
>Very cool video. But he claimed both he and Tom were against the 32X. Also he said he went to Japan and they showed off the 32X and that's when he realised it wouldn't work, but the SOJ guy were saying that SOA didn't want to release the Saturn and kill off the Genesis, so SOA specifically requested the 32X be created.

this is what i was talking about in one of the other threads. Something isn't adding up. They could have been talking past eachother, sure. But it still feels like something else was going on.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:12:23 2023 No.10062275

>>10061987

the last bullet makes sense, especially for sports games. it made a difference to jock-sniffers who might play vidya too.

but the rest of that is just gawd awful. How terrible was the oversight of a captive studio that puts out only 2 titles in 3 years, and doesnt have anything else (like co-development) to show for it?

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:20:20 2023 No.10062286

>>10062264
>Something isn't adding up.
We have Japan saying one thing, and the financial documents to back it up. Then we have old interviews from decades ago from Sega of America employees that don't align. The logical conclusion is the Sega of America interviews are embellished and told in a way to paint them in a better light.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:40:35 2023 No.10062324 >>10061987 I always wondered why the SoA studios never managed to release more games

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:45:18 2023 No.10062332
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>>10061987
>STI was losing $60-80 million per year
>SEGA VR was a failure
>Two other studios only released two shitty games no one remembers
>Licensed the fuck out of popular properties
Sega of America really did the most damage to SEGA.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 05:59:33 2023 No.10062354 >>10056690 He's dead, anon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 06:06:35 2023 No.10062362 >>10062354 That's Bernie Stolar you're thinking of. Tom Kalinske is still alive.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 06:07:05 2023 No.10062364 >>10062362 Oh yeah.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 06:17:25 2023 No.10062386 >>10062286 >The logical conclusion is the Sega of America interviews are embellished and told in a way to paint them in a better light. no, thats a logical inference based on what we have. But its hardly the only conclusion that could be drawn.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 06:25:19 2023 No.10062395

>>10062386
> no, thats a logical inference based on what we have. But its hardly the only conclusion that could be drawn.
It's the most reasonable explanation that fits with the facts we have on the situation. It's not just Japanese execs vs US execs telling tall tales here. We have financial data and leaked confidential documents as well. And those 100% back up what the Japanese side is saying.

There's no hidden side of the story here that makes Sega of America look good. The honest truth you need to come to terms with is that Sega of America completely fucked up and made a lot of bad decisions that ultimately did the most damage to Sega as a whole.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 07:37:54 2023 No.10062469

>>10062395
The Game Gear was on SoJ. Blah-blah moderate success, blah-blah first serious competitor to Game Boy.
It cumulatively sold 10% of its technologically-inferior rival. That sort of "impressive, but impractical" hardware designs should've been left behind in the mid-80s, along with the wrist-mounted TV.

The Sega CD was on SoJ as well. Blah-blah decent sales, blah-blah some solid titles.
It used an overdesigned (and expensive!) architecture to work around the fact that the Genesis's expansion port was completely unsuited for such an add-on. Heck, it had a sprite rotator/scaler (a rudimentary pseudo-3D accelerator) that barely saw any meaningful use. Again, due to how shit the base Genesis was with forward compatibility and expandability. Should've never been greenlit in the first place.

SoA put in a championship-tier attempt at fucking things up, but SoJ were no slouches either.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 07:56:58 2023 No.10062491

>>10062395
>It's the most reasonable explanation that fits with the facts we have on the situation.
It could be so. If SoA execs were shit heads during the Genesis days, it makes sense they would be shit heads in interviews decades later. But it could also be that the SoJ folks wanted didn't like the SoA folks so they set them up to fail. Well that's one way to look at it, clearly there was a breakdown in communication

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 09:52:24 2023 No.10062606 >>10061987 vr and midwest studio were a mistake.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 16:58:18 2023 No.10063379 Didn't kalinske push for using the chip that would go to the N64 in the Saturn? That maybe could've saved it because it would've been quite advanced for 1994. Or would graphics not really matter

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 18:02:46 2023 No.10063498 >>10063379 Yes, unfortunately for him, the Saturn's hardware was already pretty much locked in by mid-93.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 18:49:37 2023 No.10063589 >>10063379 Yep

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 19:09:38 2023 No.10063643

Anecdotally, this lines up with what I observed as a kid in the early-mid 90s: very few of my friends had sega consoles, but every toy store was packed with them. There were always stacks of them in the games section. Meanwhile, the nintendo stuff seemed to move quickly. In 1996, the N64 and ps1 were always sold out and on reserve leading up to Christmas. The clear inventory ticket holders for Sega stuff were always full. By 1997, I remember it had all disappeared—must’ve been sent back to SoA or sold to liquidators.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 21:28:58 2023 No.10063957

>>10062256
>Then Mega Drive came out in 88 and no one really gave a shit in Japan

the megadrive kinda had 2 things against it
>a really, really horrible 1st year of launch. got just a handful for games for a full year
>lack of RPGs until much later on

pce also had a bunch of normie franchises like f1 circus, fire pro wrestling, momotaro dentetsu, and all those caravan festival shooters (gunhed + soldier games, 1 every year), R-type was a big system seller early on too, then tengai makyou and the CD helped pick up further momentum

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 21:38:00 2023 No.10063964 With all these leaks and new pieces of info I'm starting to think that Sega might not have been a very well run company.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 23:01:07 2023 No.10064065 >>10056785 Blue eyes too. What a Chad.

Anonymous Thu Jul 13 23:15:19 2023 No.10064080

>>10056962
>To make matters worse, in 5th gen, Sony entered the game, penetrating the market with aggressive money-burning multimillion marketing.
Sony had the better machine and the storage medium was better CD just as teh PS2 with VDV was better than ROM as well. Non optical media machines using cartridges and proprietary media formats in the 90s and early 2000s were fucking retarded and cut themselves off from all those distribution channels that also sold CDs and later DVDs. They also cut them selves off from GBs more space. Don't know what drugs they were on in nintendo and sega in the 90s and 00s but they must have been retard making powerful. Sega and Nintendo they were platforms targeting kids too tarded for home computers as cash cows.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 23:16:23 2023 No.10064084 >>10064080 Cocaine mostly.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 13 23:17:40 2023 No.10064089 >>10058912 Monster World 4 for sure. It was an actual crime that game never made it out of Japan. I'm gonna guess Twinkle Tale as well just because the protagonist is a girl.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 14 00:30:02 2023 No.10064252 >>10058863 sega was created by a group of jews that had deals with the army

Anonymous Fri Jul 14 00:44:19 2023 No.10064286

>>10061987
STI is a complete enigma
>Released like 4 games
>Consisted of mostly brand new devs
>Released nothing good
>Massively overfunded for god knows what reason
>Got tasked with sole development of the Sonic X-Treme project for god knows what reason
I'm sure being in STI was a miserable time don't get me wrong but their whole existence is perplexing

Anonymous Fri Jul 14 09:01:29 2023 No.10065076

>>10064286
Well, they did make some decent-to-good games (Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3, Kid Chameleon, Die Hard Arcade). And the code injector passthrough on the S&K catridge was revolutionary at the time. It worked with both Sonic 3 and Sonic 2. Damn shame they never iterated on the concept.
I think they got afflicted by corporate mismanagement, and that hack Naka's auteurship spergouts.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 14 16:18:19 2023 No.10065740 >>10065076 >Naka's auteurship spergouts. His temper tantrum when he found out that sti was using the nights engine for xtreme still boggles me. Why would they have sti make the game then?

Anonymous Fri Jul 14 17:02:51 2023 No.10065803
File: 979 KB, 1280x1887, 1609596037738.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Neither this man nor Tom Kalinske tell the whole truff.
The truff is always what comes out after you combine two radically opposed opinions and then take a middle ground between both.

Anonymous Fri Jul 14 22:13:24 2023 No.10066454
File: 94 KB, 946x622, f2dac4e537652db19cec08b3267eedb5.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Regardless of which side did more harm in the long run the Peter Moore story about Yuji Naka freaking out over American kids not thinking Sega is cool anymore is both highly illuminating and fucking hilarious

Anonymous Fri Jul 14 22:18:52 2023 No.10066468

>>10062491
>But it could also be that the SoJ folks wanted didn't like the SoA folks so they set them up to fail.
How does that make any logical sense? What benefit does SoJ get from doing that? They want their stuff to be successful outside of Japan because it opens their products up to a larger market.

>>10062469
>Game Gear and Sega CD!
Had their place and at least made some sense. If it weren't for the 32X we'd probably look back on them differently. Gameboy may have outsold Game Gear by a wide margin, but a good bit of that is from the Gameboy's 2nd wind that happened in the mid to late 90s with the release of Pokemon.

>SoJ were no slouches either.
Sure, but their mistakes were no where near as damaging and were salvageable.

>>10064286
Remove the Sonic games from that list as well as Die Hard Arcade. The Sonic games were made by Naka's team from Japan. While technically they were under STI, but they were pretty much their own separate entity. Die Hard Arcade was mostly AM1. Sega of America slapped STI's name on it for localization and testing purposes.

>>10065740
>His temper tantrum when he found out that sti was using the nights engine for xtreme still boggles me.
Except that temper tantrum didn't happen. NiGHTS wasn't built around an engine, it was a mostly done in assembly and is very game specific. It wasn't really reusable as an engine.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 14 22:37:00 2023 No.10066536 File: 515 KB, 765x1014, EPzYriCXkAcU0fr.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10066454 Sonic used to be more recognizable than Mickey Mouse or Bill Clinton among kids. I would have been mad at these news too.

Anonymous Fri Jul 14 22:48:02 2023 No.10066576

>>10056574
The entire reason SEGA had a presence at all in the video gaming world was because of SOA. Sega of Japan fucked themselves in the face by kow-towing to Nintendo early on and not being able to market their Dreamcast in their strongest market, North America.

If Tom Kalinske was in charge, we could've seen a 6th gen Sega console.

>>10060763
Wrong. Richard Stewart, one of the founders of SEGA, was not jewish.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 00:13:44 2023 No.10066868

>>10065076
>Well, they did make some decent-to-good games (Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic 3)
Sonic 2 was so infamous for the language barriers between the Jap and US branches that Sonic Team made Sonic 3&K by exclusively working with the Japanese branch after Naka demanded it.
The American side had fuck all to do with 3&K.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 00:15:17 2023 No.10066871 >>10066454 >Implying Naka wasn't right Normalfags and dudebro cancer ruined video games Fuck GTA 3

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 00:22:32 2023 No.10066894 >>10066576 >Wrong. Richard Stewart, one of the founders of SEGA, was not jewish. Sega was originally founded as Standard Games(and then Service Games in 1946) by Irving Bromberg and his son Martin Jerome Bromberg

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 00:43:55 2023 No.10066945 >>10066454 man.... if that video is somewhere out in the ether. Even better if it got pressed into a dvd or something

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 00:47:36 2023 No.10066952 >>10066894 >Sega was originally founded as Standard Games(and then Service Games in 1946) >1946 Ship of Theseus

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 00:55:47 2023 No.10066972

>>10066468
>How does that make any logical sense? What benefit does SoJ get from doing that? They want their stuff to be successful outside of Japan because it opens their products up to a larger market.

we have plenty evidence in multiple markets that this is not always true like it is to a globalist. Japan's isolationism remains strong, and even the popularity of anime is seen as a cultural oddity for a good 30 years, a footnote of additional success not really noteworthy to their business minds. Jpop in the west is nothing compared to Kpop in the west, despie the much higher cultural familiarity with Japan, and thats mostly because of Japanese media indifferent to thing5s outside their borders.

>>10066468
>Sure, but their mistakes were no where near as damaging and were salvageable.
it depends entirely on where you think the buck stops, at this point. Up until recently, the narrative had been supposedly settled that the 32x was solely the mistake of SOA wanting it because they were bitching about the Saturn's expected retail price. But more nuance is coming out about exactly who was responsible for suggesting it, exactly who was responsible for designing it, and exactly who was responsible for its market plan. And also with these leaks there seems to be some question of just because they wanted to stick with the Genesis didn't mean they all at SOA wanted the 32x to hold them over either.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 01:06:35 2023 No.10066997

>>10066894
Yes, and so was Bernie. Though, as true as that is, it didn't remain 85-90% Jewish owned and managing wise by the time their Japanese branch was working on arcade games in the 1980s as well as the company in general was struggling in Japan, ROK, Canada, and USA with the Sega Master system AKA the Mark III against the NES. Yeah I know that one of the founding members staying along until shortly after the Genesis/Mega Drive was officially discontinued, and the Saturn was struggling from competition in the form of the PS1 and N64. Still, not quite as continuously owned and operated by guess what tribe as the NYtimes and TheAtlantic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 01:19:05 2023 No.10067023 >>10066894 Yes, and Disney was originally founded by a devout Christian, Walt Disney, funny how things change, isn't it?

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 01:24:09 2023 No.10067041

>>10066454
>He just gets in my face. So I said to the translator, "Tell him to fuck off." And the poor guy looks at me and says, "There's no expression in Japanese." I said, "I know there is." And that was it. That was the last time I ever set foot in there.
Holyyy shit

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 01:28:43 2023 No.10067045 File: 39 KB, 472x472, 1619794701664.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >you will never go back in time and save sega and help microsoft push sony out of the gaming market

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 01:31:53 2023 No.10067050 I wonder what would've happened to Sega if Tom never put Sonic on the box.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 03:21:26 2023 No.10067305 >>10056601 This

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 03:22:31 2023 No.10067312 >>10067045 I don't want Microshaft or Snoy in the gaming market.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 04:40:01 2023 No.10067560

>>10066468
>How does that make any logical sense? What benefit does SoJ get from doing that? They want their stuff to be successful outside of Japan because it opens their products up to a larger market.
People aren't logical, especially at the sub-executive level of large corporate. It could be orchestrated by individuals, by subtle means such as making sure the best engineers weren't assigned to the 32X or encouraging SoA to launch a product that they knew wouldn't have the necessary support succeed. Motivations can be varied, people get into these corporate roles and basically if they lead an initiative that is successful, they look good, if a peer leads an initiative that is successful they can look bad. That's a fundamental dynamic that leads to people white anting each other. Well, healthy competition can be a good thing within an organisation and it's not uncommon to have competing products developed in parallel in many organisations. But also consider the cultural aspect, Sega is a Japanese company, but the Genesis is much more popular in America than the Mega Drive in Japan, this means a lot of revenue is coming from America and it shifts the balance of power to America... leading potentially to American executives bossing around Japanese staff. If you are in SoJ and you don't want to be bossed around by an American (maybe you honestly believe American judgement about the industry is objectively wrong) you might want to ensure that the balance of power remains on the Japanese side. I believe a similar thing happened in Nintendo around the late 90s, though not as destructive. Note that when they were working with Rare, they had a lot of American guys like Ken Lobb collaborating with Rare and NCL involvement was minimal. After they sold Rare, they worked with companies like Retro but they had mostly NCL guys working with Retro on Metroid Prime. I remember hearing there was some sort of power struggle around Minoru Arakawa, but I don't know specifics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 18:09:13 2023 No.10068863 SoJ vs. SoA threads always feel like weebs vs. those guys who had every sports game imaginable back in the day.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 18:41:42 2023 No.10068926

>>10066972
>>10067560
>Sega of Japan hated Sega of America and wanted to sabotage them!
There's a whole lot of assumptions and crazy conspiracy shit that needs to go on for events like that to unfold. But there's no evidence of that and if anything there's more evidence of Sega of Japan bending over backwards to support every whim of Sega of America. A substantial chunk of 32X games were made by Sega of Japan with some being Saturn games that were moved over to help get enough software ready for the US launch.

It's more likely that Sega of America just bet on the wrong horse and made poor decisions that caught up with them. Especially since the evidence actually backs that up.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 18:59:07 2023 No.10068958

>>10066972
>But more nuance is coming out about exactly who was responsible

It basically plays out like this:
>1992 SoJ starts developing the Saturn.
>Fall of 1992 the SH2 is decided on as the main CPU.
>Start of 1993, Nakayama wants consumer division to start focusing on 3D. Yoji Ishii is pulled from the Arcade division with a team of about 30-40 people to start getting the consumer division up to speed on 3D.
>Summer of 1993 most of the Saturn design is finalized around 1 SH2, VDP1, VDP2, the SCSP, 68k, SCU+DSP, etc. (Though additional revisions on custom chips is still happening)
>Irimajiri vists SoA, they tell him they can't abandon the Genesis for the Saturn and are very adamant about it.
>Fall 1993, Sony PS1 specs are revealed to the entire industry's surprise. Sega adds a 2nd SH2 to the Saturn to boost it's 3D computational power. Development on the SCU-DSP seems to stop here.
>CES 1994, up to this point SoA has been adamantly against the Saturn and wants to stick with the Genesis. Nakayama has a phone call with them asking what they're going to do to compete with the new systems coming out. 32X comes out of this discussion.
>Sometime later in 1994 SoAs 32X design is given to Hideki Sato, he has to get the cost down to $150. So things get cut, other bits get toned down, etc. to hit that price point.
>Throughout 1994 SoA is fully focused on 32X with SoJ assisting by shifting software projects from Saturn to 32X to help get games ready for launch. SoA contracts a few third parties to start making some Saturn games for Japan and the eventual US launch expected sometime late 1995 into 1996 (Virtua Racing, SimCity 2000, Bug!, Ghen War, etc.)
>November 1994 Saturn launches in Japan, 32X Launches in the US.
>32X is dead on arrival.
>Sega panics and does an early Saturn launch in May of 1995 to try and sweep 32X under the rug.

At the end of the day, 32X came about mostly because of Sega of America not wanting to drop the Genesis for Saturn.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 19:07:35 2023 No.10068979

>>10068958
Some key things to note about this. Sega of Japan clearly recognized 3D was the next big thing and started having members of the Arcade division go over to help the console division get ready. Sega of America never did this as far as we can tell and instead stuck to 2D stuff on the Genesis.

Another one is trying to figure out where exactly the SGI tale fits in. It only really seems to make sense around Summer of 1993, but even then it seems odd for Kalinske to do that when he had just made a big case that they couldn't drop the Genesis. Though maybe he could have just been going "Hey this is cool we could use it to beef up Genesis!" or something. He never gives timelines or what the intent of the hardware was for in the original interview. And I don't think Hideki Sato ever mentions it either.

Al Nilsen's story is also kind of odd because he left Sega late 1993 early 1994. So for him to shoot down 32X as we know it multiple times seems odd. But we do know that Sega of America was heavily focused on pushing peripherals for the Genesis. So Nilsen could be talking about Sega of America based ideas for Genesis Peripherals that may have gotten far enough along for Japan to make prototypes.

The Japanese side of the story all seems to align pretty well across multiple sources from Irimajiri, Hideki Sato, Hitachi's Engineers, Nakayama, Yuji Naka, Yoji Ishii, as well as translated interviews, articles, etc. from 1993-1996ish. The US side though seems to be all over the place and regularly changes depending on who's telling it and when.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 19:08:03 2023 No.10068981 [DELETED]

File: 96 KB, 343x500, bernie stolar.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

All Sega had to do was go all in on the 32X and believe in the Chad Drive, release a combo system based off it (the Neptune) for japs since they were retards and didn't buy a Chad Drive there, never release the Shiturn because not only was it overpriced but also extremely tedious to develop for and had no chance of beating either the Playstation or the N64, then release 3dfx-based Dreamcast so as not to scare away support from EA and other western devs and make porting from PC even easier, and thus would have never crashed. A 3dfxcast would've obliterated N64 and PSX, and without the burden of the Shiturn being a massive failure, could've lived a full life span, unlike neither Shiturn nor the Dreamcast got.

But no, the retard japs had to fuck it all up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 19:17:17 2023 No.10069005 >>10068981 Bernieposting aside, the recent financial leaks and translations do prove that it wasn't Stolar who was responsible for SEGA's downfall, or even the Saturn.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 19:21:08 2023 No.10069017

>>10068981
>All Sega had to do was go all in on the 32X
They did in the US. They produced 800k of them to sell in 1994. At the end of 1995 they had over 450k in warehouses at Sega of America with another 100k sitting at retailers about to be returned. So that means at most only about 250k 32X systems were sold world wide up to that point. Saturn on the other hand had sold that much in the US alone in less time and another 1.7 Million in Japan for 1995 + another 500k from 1994 in Japan.

32X was a disaster.
>>10069005
Yeah, if anything it shows the giant mess Kalinske left that Stolar and Irimajiri were tasked with cleaning up.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 21:20:13 2023 No.10069285

>>10068926
>It's more likely that Sega of America just bet on the wrong horse and made poor decisions that caught up with them. Especially since the evidence actually backs that up.
>>10068958
>>CES 1994, up to this point SoA has been adamantly against the Saturn and wants to stick with the Genesis. Nakayama has a phone call with them asking what they're going to do to compete with the new systems coming out. 32X comes out of this discussion.

Except for one detail that keeps getting glossed over. There's no evidence that SOA wanted 32x either, so saddling this as completely SOAs fault for the company's ultimate demise like how its often characterised here just doesn't hold water. And that is exactly how its been characterised:

>>10056574
>by SOJ who definitely wouldn't tell a story that saves face for themselves, either
>>10058901
>>10059416
>>10059865
>ignoring that the need for the 32x was a SOJ insistence
>>10060039
>arguing the one in charge 'capitulates'
>>10062395
>a binary that makes SOA look good and SOJ look bad, when that wasnt the point anymore

all of this is separate from SOA's inventory shenanigans, poorly developed western games, and other business problems.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 21:22:30 2023 No.10069290

>>10068979
>Sega of Japan clearly recognized 3D was the next big thing and started having members of the Arcade division go over to help the console division get ready.

would like to believe that, but the console design shares next to nothing of Sega's arcade machines of the era that were running 3-d. Even if the arcade machines were stupid expensive, you would think to streamline porting and unify developing talent, a new home machine would have more in common.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 21:24:34 2023 No.10069293

>>10068981

no, there was no believing in the SegaCD that would have made a difference by the time of the 32x. And if you look at the game list, its not like the Saturn where a chunk of the library was held back. Most of the important JP megacd games made it over, and the market just wasnt impressed. Between load times and just not enough of a difference in games, it wasn't all it was cracked up to be in the west.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 21:36:42 2023 No.10069313 File: 417 KB, 530x1683, sonysega.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Did old magazines talk about problems happening at the top level of companies? Maybe we could find some unbiased information there.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 21:47:19 2023 No.10069329

>>10056574
This reads like a salty Japanese businessman who hates that American businessmen ran the company better than the Japanese could. History has proven these Japanese executives are liars when it comes to who to blame for their failure. America and Europe put Sega on the map during the early 90s. They made them an international brand. Then the Japanese Executives got greedy and ran the company into the ground.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 21:50:11 2023 No.10069331

>>10069329

except the leak shows that SOA was playing fast and loose with numbers and inventory in a shell game. So there's definitely room to say the American businessmen's successes were highly conditional and situational, and when the tide went out you could tell who'd been skinnydipping.

Anonymous Sat Jul 15 22:12:48 2023 No.10069373

>>10069331
1. The problem is that we are never told what exactly Japan's expectations were for Sega of America's sales after Tom made the Genesis popular. For all we know, Tom made the Genesis popular, and then Japanese got greedy and demanded he sell more and more units. Far more than the American market or European market could sustain.

2. I have literally worked with Asian businesses (Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese) in my career. Both as a Western company partnering with them, and also working for a Japanese company in their Western branch. It's all the same thing. They jerk you around making big promises. Then either fail to deliver, demand even more money than the contract stated, or have lots of petty office rivalries that sabotage the project and cause delays. China was pretty bad at honoring contracts and Always making up delays and demanding more money to make deadlines.

When I worked for a Japanese company in a western branch, they don't reward you with more Freedom when you are successful. This is something you expect from Western companies right? But not from Asian companies. If you do an amazing job, They simply pat you on the head, say thank you Gaijin-san, and then take over your project and run it into the ground. They do NOT understand Western markets, and run projectS into the ground. I witnessesed my senior manager slam his phone down and yell, "These Fucking people in Tokyo just don't get America at all." He spearheaded a project, pushed hard to make it happen, got it successful in the West, and then wasnt rewarded. Just had his shit taken away, and ran into the ground just a few months later. I've seen many talented people leave the Japanese company after many issues like this. So im definitely inclined to take Tom's side here based on person.

3. History has proven Tom Kalinske right. Sega ran their company into the ground. The 32x and Sega Saturn were disasters in the West that cost the company tens of millions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 22:27:38 2023 No.10069416 >>10069373 the point was that the run the company better remark should be considered highly conditional. The rest of this more or less hits the mark.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 22:31:29 2023 No.10069421 >>10058863 Just don’t pay attention to the suits at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 22:41:58 2023 No.10069442 >>10060394 The gaming industry was better when it was run by toy makers/manufacturers rather than electronics companies.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 23:03:57 2023 No.10069489 >>10069442 not by much. toy makers and manufacturers were still run by the same level of business executives cut from the same cloth...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 23:06:55 2023 No.10069498 >>10069442 I agree with you, but only to a point. Electronics companies =/= always bad >Forgetting that Atari and NEC were also electronics makers and made their set of computer systems.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 15 23:14:57 2023 No.10069520 >>10069285 >Poorly developed western games You aren't kidding. SoA's western developed games are generally abysmal. I can't even give them away as a bundle on eBay.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 00:23:36 2023 No.10069681 >>10066454 Moore is a known liar and embellisher. An entertaining one, but still, his stories should be taken with a grain of salt.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 00:48:48 2023 No.10069714

>>10066871
Speaking of GTA3, there are other articles going into detail about the focus tests, where Moore says teens described Rockstar as
>your drunken uncle that shows up from Vegas once a month with a hooker on his arm and looking for money and then he's gone again. He comes in and he's the life of the party for a little while, and then he disappears for a long time.
While I could definitely see Naka arguing with Moore over focus tests, it's difficult to believe Rockstar would be described like this while they were anywhere between GTA III, Max Payne's, and Vice City's original releases with only a year between III and Vice. I don't know, that part came off as odd to me.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:03:18 2023 No.10069738 >>10058909 >Saturn was a Hit in Japan. It was such a big hit they had to scale down on selling the consoles because it was so expensive to manufacture that it was netting them giant losses.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:11:01 2023 No.10069750
File: 85 KB, 1053x1140, PrepFor3D.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10069285
>ignoring that the need for the 32x was a SOJ insistence
Except they didn't insist on it. 32X was made because SoJ was helping SoA with what THEY wanted to do. If SoJ got their way Saturn would have released in the US in 1994 with no 32X at all. But Sega of America insisted they couldn't abandon the Genesis. So to help them stay competitive with newer systems Japan offered a Genesis with more colors. Sega of America said that was dumb and Sega of Japan pushed back with "Then what are you going to do about these new systems coming out?" and they came up with the 32X design.

None of this really contradicts what a lot of Sega of America people told us previously, it just gives us more context about what was going on in Japan which paints a clearer picture.
>>10069290
>would like to believe that
Believe it because it's true.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:13:11 2023 No.10069758

>>10057081
>it's clear he couldn't sustain the product and the internal teams were often sabotaging products for petty reasons.

He sent multiple good ideas that SOJ shot down, and then they forced him to surprise the Saturn with zero inventory to ship, 4-5 months after the 32x. And remember, the 32x was ordered by SOJ too. Tom turned it into what it was, but SOJ gave the order to make the thing. And the Saturn coming out with horrible hardware and no backwards compatibility was entirely down to SOJ too.

SOA getting fucked in 1996 was basically due to the parent company forcing them to do retarded things. Things that killed the brand so hard, that they couldn't sell anything, which is what caused them to have so much excess stock that they had to write off and post hundreds of millions in losses.
Also note that without Tom, the genesis would not have sold fuck all in America either.

SOJ clearly sabotaged SOA.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:17:29 2023 No.10069770 >>10066868 >The American side had fuck all to do with 3&K. And surprise surprise Sonic 2 was the better game.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:18:46 2023 No.10069775

>>10069738
>It was such a big hit they had to scale down on selling the consoles because it was so expensive to manufacture that it was netting them giant losses.
That was only for the first few months after launch. We now know how much Saturn cost to produce around the start of 1996. It cost $232 to produce and was being sold for $299 at that point in the US and 34,800 Yen in Japan (about $320). At the end of March 1996 it dropped to 20,000 Yen with the release of the cheaper to produce Model 2 and was $249 in the US.

So the margins may have been razor thin at points when a price drop first hit, but it wasn't this super expensive constantly losing money situation as people try to imply. And from what's come out about PS1, it wasn't that cheap to produce either when it launched in 1994.

>>10069758
>And remember, the 32x was ordered by SOJ too.
No it wasn't. You're using an old out of context interview from years ago. We now have more information about that situation that gives us more context. The only push SoJ did was saying "If you're not going to launch Saturn and you're not going to try the Genesis with more colors idea how the hell are you going to compete with these new systems?" And from that came 32X. Nothing was forced on Sega of America, they chose to go this route. They always had the option to just go with Saturn and not do 32X at all, they CHOSE to do 32X.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:19:46 2023 No.10069780 >>10066468 >Sure, but their mistakes were no where near as damaging and were salvageable. The Saturn was 100% on them and it ended up doing so much long term damage that it made them exit the console business.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:21:11 2023 No.10069784 >>10069780 >The Saturn was 100% on them and it ended up doing so much long term damage that it made them exit the console business. The Saturn would have been fine if Sega of America just got on board with it from the start.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:25:37 2023 No.10069792

>>10069750
>Believe it because it's true.

Thats not the part the belief was aimed at. It was Sega/home console division supposedly recognizing 3d was the next big thing. It has everything to do with the design of the Saturn itself not reflecting a true recognizing 3d as the next big thing. If they did, you would think they would have taken some design cues from the successful 3d machines in the arcades (model1/2), or upcoming releases except a 68k for sound.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:35:07 2023 No.10069810

>>10069775
>And from that came 32X. Nothing was forced on Sega of America, they chose to go this route. They always had the option to just go with Saturn and not do 32X at all, they CHOSE to do 32X.

>i'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.

nothing in any of this indicates SOA was given any option. SOJ was ready for a joint launch at nearly $500 in 1994 with no backward compatibility. It makes perfect sense that SOA balked at those conditions. Your characterization that the only push SOJ did is a really limp-wristed reading of what more likely happened given SOJ is in charge, not SOA.

we have no evidence that they were given any other option or audience on the matter to not do the 32x, and to not joint launch the Saturn at that price.

If you were being intellectually honest, what you would more reasonably say is SOJ was not going to give on any condition SOA offered on the Saturn's design, and later were not going to go with not launching the Saturn.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:36:22 2023 No.10069813

>>10069792
>It was Sega/home console division supposedly recognizing 3d was the next big thing.
Then you suck at reading. I clearly said Sega of Japan as in the higher ups recognized it as the next big thing and ordered Arcade division members to go to the Consumer division to get them up to speed. I didn't say the consumer division recognized it, I said the higher ups did. And that quote proves it. Hayao Nakayama was the President of Sega.
> It has everything to do with the design of the Saturn itself not reflecting a true recognizing 3d as the next big thing. If they did, you would think they would have taken some design cues from the successful 3d machines in the arcades (model1/2)
They did do exactly that. You realize part of what makes those arcade boards work so well for 3D is having a ton of CPU brute force to do 3D calculations right? Model 2 had an Intel i960 RISC CPU @25MHz and a FPU coprocessor to help it with 3D math. Saturn has 2 SH-2 RISC CPUs @28MHz and an DSP Coprocessor @14MHz all to do 3D math. 3D was the entire reason those chips were chosen and put in the Saturn.

Where Saturn falls short is VDP1's fillrate isn't as good and the way it rasters quads isn't quite the same. It's still more than good enough to be competitive that generation.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:38:52 2023 No.10069816
File: 92 KB, 960x960, 1668335439270403.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10056601
Everywhere isn't the right word
>>10056695
Oh yeah, definitely he would've lead SEGA to greatness... what a joke
>>10056706
None of them, SEGA as a whole was a fucking mess, including SoJ
>>10058863
Both, maybe SoJ a bit less, but still

It's all so tiring...

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:42:30 2023 No.10069823

>>10069775
>The only push SoJ did was saying "If you're not going to launch Saturn and you're not going to try the Genesis with more colors idea how the hell are you going to compete with these new systems?"

Maybe SOA could've just said "we can rely on our very strong software library and large install base, which would guarantee that even less technically advanced games could sell far more units than they would on a new console", which is what Nintendo did with the SNES and time proved them right. SOJ wanted to launch some new hardware no matter what (because they could NOT fucking sell the Megadrive, unlike SOA), which was what lead to the shit situation they got stuck in.

Their option was to launch the Saturn, which had no decent games, no inventory, no backwards compatibility, was overpriced as shit, and meant axing all the Genesis projects they had and making their existing Genesis inventory unsellable. OR take the hugely successful Genesis and give it a modest upgrade that can keep it going for 1-2 more years, even turn it into a dedicated console (Neptune) which can do modest 3d, has a good price point, and is compatible with all the existing software lineup.
The recent leaks also confirm they had a huge inventory problem, with games not selling BY 1996. If they can keep the Genesis alive for 2+ more years, the inventory they piled up would have a bigger chance at selling, because the machine they are pushing the most could still play them. Even if they had to sell them at $10, they could still sell them, which is better than writing them off.
The 32x was a good concept in this context.

But no, SOJ saw the Saturn selling very good, so they told SOA to stop everything and do the Saturn now, thereby putting them in a situation that fucked up all of their long term plans.

SOA did what they thought was best for their market, SOJ told them to fuck right off and follow their strategy. If SOA failed, it was directly due to SOJ mismanaging them.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:43:05 2023 No.10069826

>>10069810
>nothing in any of this indicates SOA was given any option
Because you refuse to let go of an old tall tale from Sega of America. Sega of America always had the option to go with the Saturn. They didn't take it. They had the option to negotiate with SoJ and go "Ok we'll do Saturn in 1995 and start winding down Genesis in 1994 as we prep for Saturn." They instead told Sega of Japan they wanted to stick with Genesis and leverage it's install base. Sega of Japan listened and tried to help them in that endeavor.

>SOJ was ready for a joint launch at nearly $500 in 1994 with no backward compatibility. It makes perfect sense that SOA balked at those conditions.
It would have been $400 most likely based on the Japanese launch price. As for backwards compatibility that could have easily came later with an adapter that went in the cart slot. The Genesis was already down to one chip at this point and could have easily been put into a cart slot adapter. And if it launched with polished versions of what ended up on 32X, it probably could have been a decent launch and given a good head start against Sony.

>we have no evidence that they were given any other option or audience on the matter to not do the 32x
We literally have Irimajiri telling us he went to Sega of America to get their thoughts and feedback. They said they wanted to stick with the Genesis and leverage its install base for next gen. He took that back to Japan, so Japan started working on ideas to help out Sega of America with that decision.

There's far more evidence of Sega of Japan bending over backwards to appease Sega of America's whims than there is for your fanfiction of them being vindictive and sabotaging their own company.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:43:36 2023 No.10069827

>>10069813

you realise from a development standpoint, an Inteli960 and an Hitachi sh-2 have dick all to do with eachother?

and you don't seem to understand that the i960 wasn't doing the brute force, it was the army of 6 DSPs.

the Saturn shared no components outside of a 68k for a spu. You would think if they actually had 3d foresight it would share maybe some components or layout with the model1, let alone the model2.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:44:13 2023 No.10069828

>>10069758
Wrong, Sega of America sabotaged Sega of America. Maybe they shouldn't have destroyed all goodwill with the 32X, market the actual good games, and not sell a bunch of inventory that doesn't sell.

>which is what caused them to have so much excess stock

The excess stock was a problem beginning in 1994.

Sega's success in the early 90s had nothing to do with the skills of SOA, it came down to getting lucky. Instead of admitting this, all Americans have an ego problem and instead invent a conspiracy company that the actual owners of the company were somehow trying to sabotage them. No, they won't have any evidence, they just expect you to believe them because blue team vs red team.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:47:14 2023 No.10069830

>>10069823
> "we can rely on our very strong software library and large install base, which would guarantee that even less technically advanced games could sell far more units than they would on a new console"
Except we know that wasn't viable either. The market was saturated and games weren't selling as well as they had hoped. We know this now from leaked inventory reports as well as interviews from multiple developers pointing out the market was imploding, including Nintendo:
https://mdshock.com/2022/05/09/a-second-atari-shock-the-decline-of-the-16-bit-console-era/

>which is what Nintendo did with the SNES and time proved them right.
Nintendo did that because they had no choice in the matter. People seem to forget that if Nintendo had their way N64 would have released no later than 1995. But SGI wasn't able to meet demands and get the chipset working in time for that.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:49:38 2023 No.10069837

>>10069826
>Sega of America always had the option to go with the Saturn.

your characterization of this as an option implies they had a choice to not go with it, and they did not. Quit dodging this with your rhetoric and address it directly.

>It would have been $400 most likely based on the Japanese launch price

Nippon launched in 94 at 450 yen, exchange rate means closer to $500. There is no evidence it would have sold at $400 like it did when it was finally launch months later.

>Japan started working on ideas to help out Sega of America with that decision.

"help" by demanding they launch "something, anything."

>them being vindictive and sabotaging their own company.

nothing so fanciful needs to be imagined, when the simpler explanation is that both sides were very pigheaded and that stubbornness had consequences. Trying to characterise that SOJ bent over backwards for anything regarding SOA is waaaaay more revisionist.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:51:30 2023 No.10069841

>>10069830
>Nintendo did that because they had no choice in the matter.

this is true after the sony deal fell apart. They were on track to do something similar, but probably better performing as the megacd.

Nintendo was lucky they still were making Gameboy money as the SNES was winding down.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:53:59 2023 No.10069846

>>10069827
Do YOU realize how much those components cost in the Model 2 board? They needed something that could do a ton of 3D math fast but for a fraction of the price.

The point is that the 3D power comes from computational brute force, which is exactly what Saturn has in it's design with the dual SH2s and the SCU-DSP. The SH2 is actually a very VERY good CPU for the time. Things like multiplication only take 1-3 clock cycles where as on things like the MIPS CPUs PS1 and N64 used it took 8-12 cycles.

>You would think if they actually had 3d foresight it would share maybe some components or layout with the model1, let alone the model2.
They didn't do that because selling a $10,000 console would be retarded.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 01:55:17 2023 No.10069853

>>10069813
>Model 2 had an Intel i960 RISC CPU @25MHz and a FPU coprocessor to help it with 3D math.

model 2 had a weak central processor (the i960) and up to FIVE dedicated DSPs that handled 3d math, plus over 20 times the memory bandwidth of the Saturn.

>It's still more than good enough to be competitive that generation.
Evidently it was not.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:05:32 2023 No.10069872

>>10069837
>your characterization of this as an option implies they had a choice to not go with it
Because they did have that option and took it.

>There is no evidence it would have sold at $400 like it did when it was finally launch months later.
The average exchange rate in 1994 was 102 to one with the high being around 113 to one. That would put it around $396-$450. They probably could have gotten away with launching for at $400 in the US.

>"help" by demanding they launch "something, anything."
They didn't demand they launch something. Sega of America said they wanted to stick with Genesis and use something to leverage it's install base. So Sega of Japan went "Ok how's this, does this help?" and Sega of America reworked it into the 32X. The "demand" was simply asking "What's your plan to deal with PS1, Jaguar, and 3DO if you're not going to launch Saturn?" and Sega of America's best answer to that was 32X.

>Trying to characterise that SOJ bent over backwards for anything regarding SOA is waaaaay more revisionist.
They literally pulled key titles away from Saturn and put them on 32X to help pad it's library. They had their own Japanese teams making 32X games that most likely were never going to sell in their home territory to help out Sega of America with their 32X. Even when 32X was clearly dead they had their Japanese port Virtua Fighter to it as a hail mary to hopefully get it to sell.
>>10069853
>6 DSPs!
Yes, and what are those DSPs for? Brute forcing 3D math. What does Saturn have? 2 powerful SH2s and a DSP to brute force 3D Math.

>Evidently it was not.
Seems pretty competitive to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpcjkDDLoXM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv4dm7daQs8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBYwVXkNWBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhqMGLBhmc8

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:07:41 2023 No.10069876

>>10069846
>They didn't do that because selling a $10,000 console would be retarded.

now you're just being obtuse when it was clearly said some, not all components.

and if the SH2 was so good a 3d value, one might also also wonder after launch if Sega would have built a super Saturn for arcade use but the model3 didnt share any components, and the ST-V doesnt count.

it wouldn't be until Naomi/DC that this really came to any actual synergy. Maybe you could make the argument that the sh-4s are the same as sh-2s for the discussion but...meh....

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:09:14 2023 No.10069881

>>10069828
>Sega's success in the early 90s had nothing to do with the skills of SOA, it came down to getting lucky.

lmfao, now we went from "the company made a fuckup" to "the company was never good to begin with". good fucking argument there.

>We know this now from leaked inventory reports as well as interviews from multiple developers pointing out the market was imploding, including Nintendo:

those are all from 1996, by which time SOA was fucked no matter which direction they went. if they made non-retarded plans in 1994, and then did not abruptly change them to something even more retarded in 1995, maybe they would not have damaged their company so irreparably that by 1996 they could not sell shit.

>SGI wasn't able to meet demands and get the chipset working in time for that.
no, the chipset was working, but according to a former SGI engineer, "the chips underperformed in testing and were being redesigned"
so, they did have the option of launching early, because the chipset was there, it just sucked. instead they floated on good software for a year and launched hardware that was cheap as competitive, unlike Sega who launched early with crap hardware and got themselves fucked out of the console business completely.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:21:50 2023 No.10069906 >>10069876 the sh-4s are the same as sh-2s

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:23:11 2023 No.10069908

>>10069872
>Yes, and what are those DSPs for? Brute forcing 3D math. What does Saturn have? 2 powerful SH2s and a DSP to brute force 3D Math.

yes, and guess which one of them was better at it. the one with 6 DSPs running at full speed, as opposed to the system with 2 SH2s that can't even work in parallal and the DSP that runs at half speed and can't access memory without the SH2 hand holding it.

>Seems pretty competitive to me
the leaked 1996 SOA sales docs specifically say that the Saturn is perceived as a console that was underpowered.

just because homebrew hackers managed to make a game look as good as 1st gen ps1 titles, does not mean the machine was suddenly equal.

every single publication that compared the two realized that the Saturn was shit at 3d, couldn't do transparencies, and so on and on.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:26:07 2023 No.10069912

>>10069876
>now you're just being obtuse when it was clearly said some, not all components.
Because those components you want were stupid expensive. That's why the Model 1 and Model 2 boards were so expensive.
>and if the SH2 was so good a 3d value, one might also also wonder after launch if Sega would have built a super Saturn for arcade use but the model3 didnt share any components
Again, are you not understanding the cost perspective here? The SH2 is a really good fit for 3D performance for CONSUMER grade hardware where the cost needs to be as low as possible. Arcade grade hardware is a different beast entirely and you can get away with stupid expensive components. Model 3 being arcade hardware uses stupid expensive components like a PowerPC 603 CPU and multiple Lockheed Martin Real3D accelerator chips. The CPU alone cost more than an entire Saturn.
>Maybe you could make the argument that the sh-4s are the same as sh-2s for the discussion but...meh....
The SH4 is a direct successor to the SH2 and is actually compatible if I remember correctly. So yeah I'd say that counts.
>>10069881
>no, the chipset was working, but according to a former SGI engineer, "the chips underperformed in testing and were being redesigned"
So in other words it wasn't working well enough in time.
> instead they floated on good software for a year
But that software wasn't really selling well either. In 1995 Nintendo was reporting falling revenue and losses:
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/18/business/international-business-nintendo-reports-3d-straight-dip-in-profits.html

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:39:00 2023 No.10069929 >>10069830 >Except we know that wasn't viable either. >Nintendo did that because they had no choice in the matter Horseshit, in both counts SFC games came out as late as 1999 Just like NES/Famicom games came out as late as 1993/94

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:44:48 2023 No.10069937

>>10069929
except you're forgetting the gap they had was because the sony deal with them fell thru. Otherwise they were about to release a SNES peripheral, too.

>>10069912
>So yeah I'd say that counts.

except the whole point was that this was only after a whole nothing generation of home console and arcade system were delivered. If Sega's left hand knew what its right hand was doing, maybe this should have happened sooner.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:46:15 2023 No.10069942 [DELETED]

>>10069908
>yes, and guess which one of them was better at it. the one with 6 DSPs running at full speed, as opposed to the system with 2 SH2s that can't even work in parallal and the DSP that runs at half speed and can't access memory without the SH2 hand holding it.

And guess which one cost $10k and which one cost $400. Seriously are you completely fucking retarded that you can't understand the context of price points?

Secondly the SH2s can run in parallel. If the program on the slave fits into the internal cache it can sit there going about it's business without the master stepping on it's toes. This is actually a pretty common thing to do in these kinds of scenarios.

>the leaked 1996 SOA sales docs specifically say that the Saturn is perceived as a console that was underpowered.
Perceived does not mean it actually was underpowered. Part of that perception came from Sega of America being horribly behind in 3D development as well as getting good tools and documents into developers hands. So the Software they were pushing out wasn't good.

>just because homebrew hackers managed to make a game look as good as 1st gen ps1 titles, does not mean the machine was suddenly equal.

Show me a first gen PS1 First Person Shooter that does 4 player split screen with those kinds of draw distances.

But if homebrew doesn't count, we can even look at official games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCkJNHwocIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvkYbwGgaGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOHul97vFFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vko1ZW-GOsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0iWf0z8R0M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P0KFEhiFbE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2eNeBPxWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2a8Q5vdcRs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-91qRAdVOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZOIS5OXuI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jpufpXWg4

Again, seems pretty man competitive to me.

>couldn't do transparencies
Saturn actually can do them. Model 2 is the one that can't.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:50:38 2023 No.10069950

>>10069929
>SFC games came out as late as 1999
Doesn't mean they were selling and being produced in large enough quantities to keep the companies revenue from falling. The point is that Nintendo didn't have some foresight to stick with SNES until late 1996. They did that because they had to as SGI's chips weren't ready in time.
>>10069937
>except the whole point was that this was only after a whole nothing generation of home console and arcade system were delivered. If Sega's left hand knew what its right hand was doing, maybe this should have happened sooner.
Again do you understand the concept of how Arcade hardware and Console hardware are two different things with two different cost factors? In the arcade having a cabinet be a couple thousand dollars isn't a big deal, in home consoles that doesn't fly. So hardware for consoles needs to be fast and performant, but also cheap. It's in this area that the SH2 is a good fit, as it's cheap and has very good performance that easily matches or in some cases exceeds the MIPS CPUs used by the competition at the time.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 02:54:33 2023 No.10069957

>>10069908
>yes, and guess which one of them was better at it. the one with 6 DSPs running at full speed, as opposed to the system with 2 SH2s that can't even work in parallal and the DSP that runs at half speed and can't access memory without the SH2 hand holding it.

And guess which one cost $10k and which one cost $400. Seriously are you completely fucking retarded that you can't understand the context of price points?

Secondly the SH2s can run in parallel. If the program on the slave fits into the internal cache it can sit there going about it's business without the master stepping on it's toes. This is actually a pretty common thing to do in these kinds of scenarios.

>the leaked 1996 SOA sales docs specifically say that the Saturn is perceived as a console that was underpowered.
Perceived does not mean it actually was underpowered. Part of that perception came from Sega of America being horribly behind in 3D development as well as getting good tools and documents into developers hands. So the Software they were pushing out wasn't good.

>just because homebrew hackers managed to make a game look as good as 1st gen ps1 titles, does not mean the machine was suddenly equal.

Show me a first gen PS1 First Person Shooter that does 4 player split screen with those kinds of draw distances.

But if homebrew doesn't count, we can even look at official games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCkJNHwocIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvkYbwGgaGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOHul97vFFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vko1ZW-GOsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0iWf0z8R0M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P0KFEhiFbE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2eNeBPxWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2a8Q5vdcRs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-91qRAdVOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZOIS5OXuI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_jpufpXWg4

Again, seems pretty competitive to me.

>couldn't do transparencies
Saturn actually can do them. Model 2 is the one that can't.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:05:41 2023 No.10069974

>>10069912
>So in other words it wasn't working well enough in time.

neither was the saturn lol

>But that software wasn't really selling well either. In 1995 Nintendo was reporting falling revenue and losses:

and yet they still had higher profits than they forecast according to that article, so maybe they weren't complete fucking retards like Sega.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:07:18 2023 No.10069979

>>10069912
Jaguar's Motorola produced Tom and Jerry RISC CPUs were more powerful than SH-2. A single Jaguar's Tom chip was only a bit less powerful than Sega's twin SH2 chips found in 32X. Jaguar's other Jerry CPU would be too busy to handle the audio to assist the Tom CPU without programming tricks that were very rarely used, unlike 32X's dual chips that were designed to work simultaneously all the time. The Jaguar was cheaper than 32X+Mega Drive and had much better sound quality, 2D image quality, and 4 times as much RAM. Yet, Atari still make a small profit from each of the system sold. It was both cheap and powerful.

Also, unlike the Saturn, the Jag could render smooth and beautiful looking 2D games without the need of a complex 2D hardware and background renderer. It simply uses the blitter to push pixels around. The Saturn was a really cost inefficient hardware.

>Model 3 being arcade hardware uses stupid expensive components like a PowerPC 603 CPU and multiple Lockheed Martin Real3D accelerator chips. The CPU alone cost more than an entire Saturn.
Motorola could design a low cost custom chip for the Saturn, like they did for the Jaguar. Real3D made the intel 740, the absolutely cheapest 3D accelerator in the market in the 90s which became a precursor to modern integrated graphics. Just because the off the shell hardware they produced that sega used for model 3 were expensive, doesn't mean that they couldn't make much cheaper versions of them.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:21:35 2023 No.10070004

>>10069974
>neither was the saturn lol
It was apparently working better than the SGI chips at the time in that it was actually a functioning console with pretty good performance for 1994.
>maybe they weren't complete fucking retards like Sega.
Yeah, splitting the market with 2 32-bit systems because your American branch is retarded and can't read the market will do that.
>>10069979
>Jaguar's Motorola produced Tom and Jerry RISC CPUs were more powerful than SH-2. A single Jaguar's Tom chip was only a bit less powerful than Sega's twin SH2 chips found in 32X.
Then why do most 3D 32X games look more impressive and usually run better than equivalent 3D Jaguar games?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_B1s69m2Wg
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2ox5aAL87c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl895zXjfyQ
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gBIleEfbeM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzvrLYECleo
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s_hpKskI1c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqY-037MJw8
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgn-wairgBQ

Even Doom when properly optimized outperforms Jaguar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqRYtPlIr80
vs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Q_Jl7nGdM

That's literally just 2 SH2s completely brute force software rendering and still outperforming the Jaguar. And you think that thing was more powerful than the Saturn? And that's not even getting into the complete buggy mess the Jaguar is. Saturn's quirks are no where near that level of broken.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:24:21 2023 No.10070009 >>10070004 My bad, copy pasta'd the wrong Virtua Figther video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS66pxupQv4 vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gBIleEfbeM

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:27:31 2023 No.10070017

>>10069957
>are you completely fucking retarded that you can't understand the context of price points?

it was not the 6x dsps that cost $10k.

>Secondly the SH2s can run in parallel.

they end up fighting the bus for access, so by definition they can not function fully parallel, only if you design your code around this pretty serious problem.

>Perceived does not mean blah blah blah

it was both perceived as and was actually underpowered. this is a fact. every fucking developer who ever worked on both will attest to this. it took homebrew developers 20 years to come up with ways to do what the ps1 could do on day one.

>Part of that perception came from Sega of America being horribly behind in 3D development

again you are shifting the blame off of SoJ. SoA was not responsible for Daytona and VF both running like crap and making the PS1 look like four times as powerful from launch day, and the gap just widened from there.

>Again, seems pretty competitive to me.

don't think you've played any contemporary ps1 games if you think those games are competitive. they are decent at best, but ps1 runs all of those at better framerate or better textures or better lightning or better transparencies or all of them.

case in point, you bring up Croc of all games as competitive, even though it looks like arse compared to the ps1 version and even the developers mentioned they had to cut it back everywhere they could so it ran decently on the Saturn.

>Saturn actually can do them.

no, it can only do 2d transparencies. 3d transparencies were too slow to be useful.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:34:28 2023 No.10070035

>>10070004
>It was apparently working better than the SGI chips at the time in that it was actually a functioning console with pretty good performance for 1994.

it had so "good" performance that the ps1 made it look like a chump with just the t-rex demo, let alone all the games they released.

>splitting the market with 2 32-bit systems because your American branch is retarded

it was the japanese branch that told them that they had to release new hardware no matter what, and it was the japanese branch that told them to stop selling their new hardware right now and sell their instead.

but not that you would understand this because you have this image in your head of SOJ being the honorable samurai trying to save the company that the fool gaijin ruined, so logical arguments naturally fly over your head.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:43:53 2023 No.10070054

>>10070017
>it was not the 6x dsps that cost $10k.
The CPU alone cost about $400 a piece. If the DSPs were anything close to that would add up to a couple thousand in price.
>they end up fighting the bus for access, so by definition they can not function fully parallel.
They don't fight for bus access if you use the built in cache. That's part of what it's there for.
>was actually underpowered. this is a fact.
In some areas sure, but the gap isn't as big as people try to claim. Which is why it was still good enough to be competitive..
> it took homebrew developers 20 years to come up with ways to do what the ps1 could do
You realize homebrew devs are using the same libraries and tools Sega had back in the 90s right? Sega even had demos showing how to do that stuff. Those homebrew devs weren't working for 20 years either.
>SoA was not responsible for Daytona and VF both running like crap
In a way they kind of are. Sega of America pushing for the 32X caused Sega to have to split resources away from Saturn projects. Games like Virtua Fighter didnt get the polish they needed. Daytona USA was released early and unfinished to try and appease share holders who were getting upset about the 32X disaster. So if there was no 32X, those situations could have been better. The other thing is Sega of America had Virtua Fighter Remix by May of 1995 to release. They chose to release the original port instead.
>Some PS1 games ran and looked better!
And so did some Saturn games. I don't think you understand what being competitive means. There were plenty of games to make the argument that PS3 was underpowered compared to the Xbox 360 and vice versa. Didn't stop either from selling well and being competitive.
>no, it can only do 2d transparencies. 3d transparencies were too slow to be useful.
It can do 3D transparencies as well. It just gets a bit tricky. Either way it's still better than no transparencies.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 03:50:30 2023 No.10070071

>>10070035
Again, I don't think you understand what I mean by saying it was good enough to be competitive. Sure PS1 is still better, but the gap isn't as big as you try to claim. The bigger issue with it's perception was the horrible launch situation and Sega of America being horribly behind in getting software ready for it. If Sega of America instead focused on getting good software ready for Saturn, it could have launched with better games that looked better against PS1.

>it was the japanese branch that told them that they had to release new hardware no matter what
Because the 16-bit Market was imploding. Sticking to Genesis wasn't viable. We know this from the financial reports and inventory reports.

>it was the japanese branch that told them to stop selling their new hardware right now and sell their instead.
Can you really stop selling hardware that already isn't selling to begin with? 32X was dead on arrival. Sure the early Saturn launch wasn't the best idea, but it happened because 32X was such an abysmal failure that they needed to do something to change the course.

>but not that you would understand this because you have this image in your head of SOJ being the honorable samurai trying to save the company that the fool gaijin ruined, so logical arguments naturally fly over your head.
Again, we have tons of evidence now that pretty much points to Sega of America doing the most damage. Sega of Japan made mistakes too, but Sega of America's did the most damage. If you have actual primary documents and evidence to the contrary, post it. Otherwise you're just being emotional.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:04:22 2023 No.10070093

>>10070004
>Then why do most 3D 32X games look more impressive and usually run better than equivalent 3D Jaguar games?
Because, as I said, the 32X used both of its CPU simultaneously for rendering, as opposed to virtually all the Jaguar games that only used one. Only Carmack attempted to use the Jerry CPU to help offload some math tasks from the Tom CPU in Doom, and it still wasn't quite successful. The 32X still has no answer to Jaguar's Iron Soldier, a 3D game with a sprawling world filled with fully destructible objects, running at a stable 30 fps and rendered with only the Tom chip.
>That's literally just 2 SH2s completely brute force software rendering and still outperforming the Jaguar.
How do you think the Jaguar rendered kts games? It brute forced them, with only a single CPU. It has no 3D accelerator. It doesn't even have a framebuffer so frame pacing would be slower.
>And you think that thing was more powerful than the Saturn?
Never said that. Only the CPU is. And I said that blitter is the more cost efficient method for 2D rendering than whatever fuckery the Saturn had.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:04:40 2023 No.10070094 >>10069784 Now that is some saturn fanboy cope

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:06:11 2023 No.10070098 >>10069929 In Japan fire emblem 5 was released on cartridge for the super Famicom in 2000

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:30:30 2023 No.10070135

>>10070093
> the 32X used both of its CPU simultaneously for rendering
Not really. Most official games have one CPU do the rendering and the other handle sound, game logic, etc. Doom Resurrection is really the only example I know of that goes full blown have both CPUs handle the rendering.
> The 32X still has no answer to Jaguar's Iron Soldier, a 3D game with a sprawling world filled with fully destructible objects, running at a stable 30 fps and rendered with only the Tom chip.
With no texture mapping. 32X has Metal Head with a 3D world and texture mapping.
>How do you think the Jaguar rendered kts games? It brute forced them
And I'm saying the 32X is doing that and outperforming it in most cases.
>Never said that. Only the CPU is.
And you're gonna have to back that up with some actual facts. How many clock cycles does it take for the Jaguar to do multiplication, division, etc.? Show me a game that 100% proves it's CPU dominance.
>And I said that blitter is the more cost efficient method for 2D rendering than whatever fuckery the Saturn had.
VDP1 renders sprites and polygons to a frame buffer and can do a pretty decent job at it, and VDP2 is more like a traditional 2D chip from the previous generation but on steroids. It's not that crazy or complicated.

The main cost factor on Saturn early on was RAM. It had about twice the amount Jaguar had when you add up all of it, and it used faster SDRAM as well. The CPUs and VDPs really weren't the big cost factor, especially when you factor in the deal Hitachi gave Sega on the chips they provided.

>>10070094
>Now that is some saturn fanboy cope
I'm not saying it would get first that generation, just that it probably would have done well enough to possibly get 2nd place. Which would leave Sega in a better position going into 6th Gen.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:33:30 2023 No.10070141

>>10070094
Entire thread is just Saturn fans once again trying to convince people that their console is somehow the best one despite being less influential than the Genesis, less unique than the Dreamcast, and straight up inferior to the PS1.

The internalized hate from these hardcore weaboo types is really weird too, I mean I like Japanese games and all but I'm not going to belittle my own country. Maybe if they stop hating Americans they might meet some western cuties? Just a thought

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:35:00 2023 No.10070148 Guys name me a good Saturn platformer, quick Oh wait never mind, it's Saturn

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:39:23 2023 No.10070157

>>10070141
The thread was more just people pointing out we now have the Japanese side of the story. It's not just Saturn related, it goes into Genesis, Game Gear, 32X, etc. And it pretty much shows a lot of problems and mistakes coming from Sega of America.

For some reason though there's some people that just need to have Kalinske and others be some kind of perfect genius or something. They can't accept that he was wrong about things and may have been twisting the truth in previous interviews. So they're stinking up the thread.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 04:42:57 2023 No.10070163 >>10056706 It could be that they're all telling the truth, but they're just biased by their own view points or the company was in a constant clash of egos across branches.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 05:21:45 2023 No.10070212 >>10069826 >Sega of America always had the option to go with the Saturn. They didn't take it. It could be that SoJ created a dilemma wherein SoA were forced to choose from two bad options.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 05:46:17 2023 No.10070240 >>10070141 Feels like they are trying to put the blame on something else that it wasn't Saturn's fault for its commercial failure in the west

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 05:47:33 2023 No.10070250

>>10070135
>Not really. Most official games have one CPU do the rendering and the other handle sound, game logic, etc.
On the jaguar, they're all being handled by one chip, the Jerry chip is fully dedicated to sounds and CD streaming for the CD add on. Multitasking isn't as easy because there's only one bus, you would have to switch the bus to all the time, and the 68000 controller CPU couldn't easily keep up with the other CPUs because it's only 16 bit and clocked slower.
>no texture mapping
It's partially texture mapped. The buildings have windows and the tanks and choppers have patterns.
>Metal Head
Corridor level design, poor viewing distance, and fewer enemies on screen at the same time.
>And I'm saying the 32X is doing that and outperforming it in most cases.
Only because both the CPU were designed to handle the game in a semi parallel manner. The second CPU in the Jaguar was designed only to handle sounds.
>How many clock cycles does it take for the Jaguar to do multiplication, division, etc.? Show me a game that 100% proves it's CPU dominance.
Just did. Also, Doom. 16 million CRY colors and running at 20 fps despite the co-processor being barely usable for handling the game routines.
>VDP1 renders sprites and polygons to a frame buffer and can do a pretty decent job at it, and VDP2 is more like a traditional 2D chip from the previous generation but on steroids. It's not that crazy or complicated.
Jaguar only needs a display list and a blitter, both of which also handles frame buffer and video output. It's a lot more cost efficient.
>The main cost factor on Saturn early on was RAM. It had about twice the amount Jaguar had when you add up all of it, and it used faster SDRAM as well.
Forget the Jaguar, the Saturn was a lot more expensive to produce than the PS1. It's a really cost inefficient system. The Jaguar was cheaper than a mega drive with 32X addition despite having much better image and sound quality and 4 times as much RAM.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 06:24:02 2023 No.10070293

>>10070017
>again you are shifting the blame off of SoJ. SoA was not responsible for Daytona and VF both running like crap and making the PS1 look like four times as powerful from launch day, and the gap just widened from there.

this is not untrue, but if you look at the budgets of SOA, there's a lot of fucking expenditure that went to bullshit and not in-house development tools like it could have been.

>>10070054
>You realize homebrew devs are using the same libraries and tools Sega had back in the 90s right? Sega even had demos showing how to do that stuff. Those homebrew devs weren't working for 20 years either.

in case you didnt know, that doesnt mean anything because developing now means you aren't actually using those libraries and tools in a vaccuum, of course you'd use modern computers geometrically times more powerful to do part of the development work first, and then bring that washed work over to the target platform. That is not an apples to apples comparison.

>In a way they kind of are. Sega of America pushing for the 32X caused Sega to have to split resources away from Saturn projects.

thats a really big stretch of interpretations of things. besides, there is no evidence that anyone on Yoji Ishii's team for example was pulled to do work on 32x

>I don't think you understand what being competitive means. ..selling well and being competitive.
you realise this reeks of goalpost moving? If the goalpost is now units sold, the Saturn was crushed 3:1 to its nearest rival, and 10:1 to the top dog.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 06:37:12 2023 No.10070304

>>10069872
>>your characterization of this as an option implies they had a choice to not go with it
>Because they did have that option and took it.

now you're just in denial. SOA most certainly did not have that choice. And the coy framing of SOJ innocently asking "well what are you gonna do about these other systems?" isn't changing that.

For SOA to really have had that choice, they would have to have been able to not launch the Saturn with Japan at that pricepoint, nor put out anything else. SOJ rejected this scenario.

>The "demand" was simply asking "What's your plan to deal with PS1, Jaguar, and 3DO if you're not going to launch Saturn?" and Sega of America's best answer to that was 32X.

neatly leaving out the part where "... and not doing something within this time window is not an option." was the demand because it might shift some of the administrative burden back to SOJ.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 06:40:43 2023 No.10070310 File: 314 KB, 533x672, VDV_lol.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10064080 >PS2 with VDV

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 06:42:19 2023 No.10070313 >>10065803 That's the stupidest shit I've ever read, and I've been here all summer. If one side is blatantly lying, you end up with inaccurate information taking that stance. You're a fucking idiot.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 07:18:52 2023 No.10070345 >>10056695 >If only Bernie had taken over SoA earlier we might had a chance bernie accelerated its demise. he was a legit retard.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 07:24:54 2023 No.10070354

>>10056601
it's like taking money out of one pocket and putting it into another.

>>10069853
>model 2 had a weak central processor (the i960)
wasn't weak at the time. not that it matters, as it wasn't doing most of the work anyway.

>>10069872
> Sega of America said they wanted to stick with Genesis and use something to leverage it's install base.
sega genesis games and consoles were still selling in respectable numbers in the americas well into the 1990s.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 07:56:28 2023 No.10070396
File: 158 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Did the leaked give us some clue as to why the Sharturn was such a putrid festering humongous pile of shart? Who even had the brilliant idea to build this monstrosity? Why is the 3D rendering pipeline so unnecessarily complicated? Why did they put so much dedicated hardware for 2D graphics? Did they legitimately think people would pay $400 to play 2D games when the Genesis and SNES could be had for like 100 bucks? What did sega lard x say about this?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 08:11:53 2023 No.10070429 >>10070396 Apparently Sega really underestimated the popularity of 3d

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 09:42:54 2023 No.10070552

>>10070396
Well Hideki Sato, the man who designed the Saturn, and Irimajiri has talked about what went on in regards to it being made:
>Around early '93, there was a wide debate in SoJ on where to take the next console, whether it should focus on 2D or 3D graphics
>There were major concerns as to whether or not SEGA themselves could make 3D games for a 3D console, Sato couldn't just drag Suzuki out of the arcade department to help make 3D games, and there weren't a lot of people outside the arcade side of things that could, so some thought they could make better games on a 2D focused console
>Sega of America proposes using the MC68020 for forward compatibility from the Genesis's MC68000, Sato decides it isn't up to the task, was impressed with the SH-2 and decides to use that instead
>There was no resolution on the 2D vs 3D debate, so they decide to make a 2D console with limited 3D support
>Sato makes a limited 3D engine based on the high sprite capabilities of the Saturn
>Sony reveals it's specs in the middle of 93, and it's 3D capabilities completely blow the Saturn out of the water
>On top of that, 3rd parties rapidly abandoned 2D development for 3D games when the Playstation was being distributed to 3rd parties
>It's soon decided the Saturn's current specifications was not enough as it became obvious that it needed to support 3D in order to compete, and it was way too late to design a GPU for 3D graphics. But, the SH-2 allowed for multi-CPU performance, so another SH-2 CPU was added to boost the 3D capabilities of the Saturn
Two other factors also contributed to the end price: RAM prices and Sega's inefficient cost structure compared to Sony. Neither factor would have been avoidable. It should also be noted that the Saturn got a lot cheaper to manufacture around early 96. According to the recent leaks, every Saturn only cost $232 to make at that point, compared to the original manufacturing cost in 94 at around $500, mainly because RAM got a lot cheaper.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 10:42:52 2023 No.10070634

>>10070141
Someone called Saturn a "2D Powerhouse" in a G4 documentary on the Sega Dreamcast. From that point on, the internet never stopped recycling the term over and over again.
I was initially curious because it had Mortal Kombat ports that looked arcade perfect, but the port of II is bad and Trilogy is much better and cheaper on PS1.
It has the best home ports of some Capcom 2D fighters that weren't ported to the Dreamcast, and almost all of them only came out in Japan and require a memory cart. Street Fighter Alpha 2 is the best of the bunch because it runs stock. PS1 sucked at running the Capcom Vs. games but it had a solid port of Street Fighter Alpha 3 that didn't require a special RAM cart.
SNK ports were also hit or miss. I was surprised when I learned that Saturn Metal Slug is laggy with sacrifices even with a RAM cart. The PS1 got some shitty Metal Slug ports too but, again, at least they run stock.
Dreamcast is much more fitting of the term "2D Powerhouse". Most of the best competitive 2D fighting games from Capcom and SNK were on it, and it could handle CPS3 games perfectly without sacrifices, load times, or special carts.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 10:56:04 2023 No.10070662 >>10070148 Astal, Bug, Bug Too, Clockwork Knight, Clockwork Knight 2, Elevator Action Returns, Keio Flying Squadron 2, Rockman 8, Shin Shinobi Den, SteamGear Mash, Super Tempo, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 11:14:36 2023 No.10070685 >>10058912 >lose all of your reputation within retailers because of SoJ's fuckups with the 32X and Saturn >hurr durr SoA brought none of my fav weeaboo games over do you motherfuckers have a single functioning braincell?

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 11:25:12 2023 No.10070703

>>10070552
>Sato couldn't just drag Suzuki out of the arcade department to help make 3D games, and there weren't a lot of people outside the arcade side of things that could, so some thought they could make better games on a 2D focused console
Why didn't they hire third parties? Why not one of those low budget home computer programming wizards from Europe? Nintendo already grabbed Argonauts and Rare, Sony already had Psygnosis and Konami, it doesn't make sense how Sega was the only one that didn't work with any third party company that have more experience in 3D. DMA Design and Factor5 were open for hire. Thalion recently released the impressive 3D racing game No Second Prize for the Amiga. Dynamix also made a handful of 3D IBM PC and Amiga games in the late 80s and early 90s before making the legendary Tribes in 1998. There were a lot to choose from.
>Sega of America proposes using the MC68020 for forward compatibility from the Genesis's MC68000, Sato decides it isn't up to the task
If they only wanted to make a 2D console with limited 3D support, wouldn't that be the right CPU? 2D graphics doesn't really take much CPU power to render and the 25MHz M68EC020 was really cheap.
https://techmonitor.ai/technology/motorola_disables_features_to_do_cheap_68000_line
That's already multitudes more powerful than Neo Geo's 12Mhz M68000. Everyone knew how to code for the Motorola 68K chips, and with a math co-processor it could be a decent 3D CPU as well. Not as good as the PS1, but still good enough for limited 3D support. Plus a genesis BC would be a good bonus.
>There was no resolution on the 2D vs 3D debate, so they decide to make a 2D console with limited 3D support
Were they stupid? Did they *really* expect people to pay $400 for a 2D console? Even simplest focus group test would tell them they're wrong.
>so another SH-2 CPU was added to boost the 3D capabilities of the Saturn
How did a multi billion dollar company fall for the sunk cost fallacy meme?

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 11:34:36 2023 No.10070715

>>10070552
>Two other factors also contributed to the end price: RAM prices and Sega's inefficient cost structure compared to Sony. Neither factor would have been avoidable. It should also be noted that the Saturn got a lot cheaper to manufacture around early 96. According to the recent leaks, every Saturn only cost $232 to make at that point, compared to the original manufacturing cost in 94 at around $500, mainly because RAM got a lot cheaper.
The PS1 had 3MB of EDO RAM (newer, faster, and more expensive than 3 of Saturn's 4MB RAM) and was only $199 by the same year. Sony was making a profit from that. RAM prices obviously couldn't be blamed for Saturn's extremely high manufacturing price.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 14:59:04 2023 No.10071052 When will this board be able to discuss about the saturn without having a spergout?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 15:35:23 2023 No.10071105 >>10056574 Retailers just got to return them no issues?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 15:47:51 2023 No.10071123 >>10056724 >Americans liked the Genesis That contradicts OP pic. The NES absolutely outsold the Genesis. Even ATARI was a serious rival.

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 16:45:14 2023 No.10071251
File: 9 KB, 450x342, 32x.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The 32X was only a "failure" because the Sega Saturn was rushed; the Saturn should've been delayed as it needed another year or so to iron out its frankenstein design and give it a more powerful 3D chip so it could hold its own against the PSX and N64's much greater 3D capabilities, one of the reasons why it was killed early in favour of the Dreamcast.

32X was going to get Daytona, Darkstalkers, and a new Castlevania. Carmack thought that it was a good platform to develop on. There was nothing really wrong with 32X, it just had to compete with the Saturn, which doomed it. Why release 2 next-gen systems at near the same time? Either go with 32X or Saturn, not both. The blame is on SoJ for very bad timing, which ended up killing the prospects of both the 32X and Saturn, and in the end, Sega.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 16:49:55 2023 No.10071261 In retrospect, considering how much game can be stuffed into 32 megabytes or less, I don't know what the excuse was for CD based systems.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 17:18:22 2023 No.10071359 File: 260 KB, 1920x1080, MV5BMDdmMzkyOWEtNTAyMy00YTk0LWEzNzUtMDhjOGQ5ZjExYWUxXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTE1NDA1NTk@._V1_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The jobbers at Sega of Japan still jealous of Kalinske's success lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 17:30:52 2023 No.10071404 >>10071359 The question is if he was profitable or not

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 17:37:28 2023 No.10071423 >>10071359 Sega would probably never have become as bad as they did had he not bleed them out of money.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 17:42:42 2023 No.10071440 >>10067045 >help microsoft deranged no wonder you lost

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 19:22:21 2023 No.10071749
File: 354 KB, 600x300, FF7 ad.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10071261
CD's were a lot cheaper to manufacture for significantly better storage compared to cartridges which meant lower costs and royalties for 3rd parties, and was also a more attractive option because of the increased storage. It's also very possible that the Saturn launching with a cartridge slot instead of a drive would have made it look even more antiquated than consumers already saw it to be.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 20:57:41 2023 No.10071971 >>10071251 You think the 32x could run Daytona USA?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 22:54:11 2023 No.10072281 >>10071052 If it wasn't such an embarassment of a system, maybe this board would. Blame Kalinske all you like, but the sharturn was really the downfall of sega when it should've been its savior.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 23:06:30 2023 No.10072309 >>10072281 Nigga it's an object, it's not a living thing to take blame for anything. I don't even like SoJ, but Kalinske was a hack whose only real accomplishment at Sega was putting Sonic on the box.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 16 23:09:55 2023 No.10072316 >>10071052 I got yelled at for recommending Saturn games and not listing every single shmup on it... just saiyan

Anonymous Sun Jul 16 23:32:40 2023 No.10072369

>>10072281
>It's the Saturn's fault sega didn't make devkits as fast as sony did
>It's the Saturn's fault sega decided to abandom most of their popular IPs to create new ones that weren't as iconic
>It's the Saturn's fault Sega was bleeding money even before it was even released
>It's the Saturn's fault Sega made stores simply not want to sell their products anymore
>It's the Saturn's fault Sega was always filled with mismanagement
Sega fanfic/Saturn threads always makes me laugh.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:21:06 2023 No.10072632

>>10072369
>It's the Saturn's fault sega didn't make devkits as fast as sony did
Seems to me SoJ didn't bother reaching out to third-party devs with extensive 3D experience. They're the console creators, not SoA, it's supposed to be their responsibility. Both Sony and Nintend did while sega kept everything internal.
>It's the Saturn's fault Sega was bleeding money even before it was even released
The sharturn made it bleed even harder.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:25:13 2023 No.10072641 >>10059416 Regardless of whose fault it was, man, what a dumb fucking idea the 32X was. Cartoonishly stupid even.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:25:31 2023 No.10072643

>>10072632
>Seems to me SoJ didn't bother reaching out to third-party devs with extensive 3D experience.
I've never defended SoJ's retardation in this entire thread.
And no, me mocking Tom is just me stating a fact.
>The sharturn made it bleed even harder.
Sega would've fumbled any console at that point in time to be honest.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:35:34 2023 No.10072662 >>10072641 Better than the sharturd.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:37:50 2023 No.10072667 >>10072662 Ok auster.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:48:15 2023 No.10072696 >>10072643 >Sega would've fumbled any console at that point in time to be honest. Not if they made a cheaper console that didn't make them bleed money.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 01:53:24 2023 No.10072709 >>10072696 The dreamcast was exactly that and they bleed money anyway. How many times do i have to tell you that this is irrelevant? People didn't buy the saturn because it didn't have the ips they liked on the genesis.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:00:09 2023 No.10072719

>>10069775
>Nothing was forced on Sega of America, they chose to go this route. They always had the option to just go with Saturn and not do 32X at all, they CHOSE to do 32X.
No one believes you. Tom Kalinske says otherwise. And common sense tells you that Sega of Japan is the boss. They decide what gets released. Stop being Japanese fanboy and wake up.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:15:33 2023 No.10072753

Sorry. I don't believe the Japanese for one second here. Asians have a culture of doing their absolute best to avoid blame and shift responsibility for failure. It's part of their entire social and hierarchical culture. The one who takes blame is shunned and becomes a huge outcast in Japanese society. So everyone avoids responsibility.

Whereas Americans will generally tell you if they screw up. They will even write books and sell their story to make money off it. The books can sell thousands or millions of copies and become a best seller. They revel in the fame.

The way I see it:

1. Sega was getting their asses kicked by Nintendo in the 1980s.

2. The Japanese Sega CEO desperately hired an American with radical ideas to run Sega of America to appeal to Westerners.

3. New American CEO was amazingly successful for several years, and brought Sega new fame and fortune outside of Japan.

4. Over time, other Japanese Executives got jealous and sabotaged the American branch.

5. American CEO resigns from Sega out of frustration, and goes to work another Western company (unrelated to video games). That Western company becomes wildly successful under his leadership. Proving he was a good CEO all along.

6. The remaining Japanese Sega Executives run Sega into the ground and cause Sega to go nearly bankrupt.

7. Sega is bought out by a freaking Japanese slot machine/panchinko manufacturer. It is barely a shadow of its former self.

8. Sony pisses all over Sega's grave and laughs in Playstation.

So ends the story of Sega.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:16:58 2023 No.10072757
File: 577 KB, 1600x1174, bernie16.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10072709
>The dreamcast was exactly that and they bleed money anyway.
Sega's brand was ruined after the Shiturn fuck-up. Dreamcast was a valiant effort to redeem themselves, but it just wasn't quite enough.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:20:51 2023 No.10072764

>>10072757
>Sega's brand was ruined after the Shiturn fuck-up.
You mean the fuck-up made by sega themselves, the saturn didn't gain life and magically whispered on Sega's ears "don't develop a games for me that nobody will care about" or "be absolutely retarded for 4 years straight".
Stop blaiming a machine for the faults of the human being running it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:23:10 2023 No.10072770 >>10072757 >that symbol

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:24:50 2023 No.10072772

>>10072764
Meant to say "that people will care about" there.
>>10072757
>Bernie
You realize that this man made the dreamcast being sold 100 dolars at a loss and opted for a soon to be outdated online modem rather than a DvD player, a decision that would bit Sega's ass really hard the moment the ps2 came out.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:26:00 2023 No.10072776

>>10072753
>Sorry. I don't believe the Japanese for one second here. Asians have a culture of doing their absolute best to avoid blame and shift responsibility for failure. It's part of their entire social and hierarchical culture. The one who takes blame is shunned and becomes a huge outcast in Japanese society. So everyone avoids responsibility.
How do they learn from their mistakes?
I thought it was okay to make mistakes as long as you learn from them and make an effort to not make the same mistake again.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:27:57 2023 No.10072781 >>10072753 Mismanagement a gaming industry is the furthest thing away from the war crimes and the unit 731 shit. They can easily accept and proclaim that they fucked up during the SMS and MD days, why would the Saturn be different?

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:28:09 2023 No.10072783

>>10072757

seemed damaged before that with the SegaCD itself. Too expensive and didn't deliver for the price...in that games weren't different enough from cart gaming, wasnt any closer to arcade gaming which would have been a standard to compare at the time (ports were weird, Samurai Shodown had huge sprites but less frames than genesis?)

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:31:12 2023 No.10072795

>>10072776
>I thought it was okay to make mistakes as long as you learn from them and make an effort to not make the same mistake again.

your ability to absorb mistakes you make is directly proportional to your social unit's ability to cover your mistake.

This is what makes becoming homeless in Japan a really fucked up social problem. Even if you get a job and have money, you can't rent out a place without a guarantor, which is usually a high level white collar employer sometimes, or much more commonly a family member. And if you're homeless, its highly likely you have nobody to turn to already.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:32:29 2023 No.10072796

>Reading the replies ITT
It really feels that SoA fans are cultists when we literally have official documented leaks how SoA lost so much money and Tom's so many unwise decisions essentially sealed SEGA's fate. Boggles the mind how anyone keeps blaming SoJ for literally everything.
>>10072776
This guy is exaggerating and think he's an expert on Japanese culture. Most vidya devs are given chances to experiment or try again. Itsuno from Capcom worked on DMC2, and made DMC3 as an apology, Hideo Yoshizawa made a lot of Klonoa games when the first game didn't even sell well, but Namco still gave him a lot of chances and put Klonoa references in other games. Meanwhile, Koji Igarashi from Konami was forced to be in the mobile division because all the Castlevania games he made over the years didn't sell blockbuster numbers, and this was after Lords of Shadow became the main focus for a while since it was one of the first Castlevania that sold over a million copies in a while.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:36:00 2023 No.10072801

>>10072795
They should have a program where homeless people can join the Japanese military, where they can get vaccinated for all kinds of real diseases (the common cold doesn't count), learn valuable life skills, and earn some money. If they genuinely suck ass, kick them out of the military and let them be homeless forever.
I was homeless in the USA, but I managed to get out of it because I had actual skills I learned in the military that people were willing to pay me money to use.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:52:44 2023 No.10072826

>>10072781
>They can easily accept and proclaim that they fucked up
They won't and haven't. Show me several examples of a large Japanese gaming companies publicly admitting their mistakes. Nothing really comes to mind.

Even the former Sega CEO who ran Sega during its decline said on his deathbed that he believes Sega was the best. He would rather die than admit he messed up.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:55:43 2023 No.10072829

>>10072826
>Even the former Sega CEO who ran Sega during its decline said on his deathbed that he believes Sega was the best. He would rather die than admit he messed up.
To be fair, expecting someone on their deathbed to say "I'm a massive piece of shit" is a little bit... I don't know...

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 02:59:01 2023 No.10072835

>>10072709
Dreamcast wasn't cheap. The tech hadn't matured yet and they could've made something better for cheaper had they waited a year or two. They lost a lot of money when the GPU manufacturing faced some issue and shipments of the consoles had to be delayed. The CPU wasn't powerful enough for the types of games the 6th gen consoles had.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:01:31 2023 No.10072843

>>10072829
>To be fair, expecting someone on their deathbed to say "I'm a massive piece of shit" is a little bit... I don't know...
He was dying around the same time his company Sega was on the verge of bankruptcy. The news of Sega's decline was all over the news and newspapers at the time. Yet he kept talking about Sega being the best. Not really a good look.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:04:17 2023 No.10072848
File: 118 KB, 1110x542, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10072826
>>10072843
Pic related.
>FFXIV 1.0 had SE reboot development and apologized.
>Konami CEO apologized to people after Kojima left the company, saying they would keep making games
>Capcom apologized for SFV
>Iwata apologizes for 3DS sales and he got a paycut while the rest of his employees didn't
And I assume you are speaking of Hayao Nakayama, he's also not fucking dead you dumbass.
>In January 1997, Sega announced its intentions to merge with Bandai, a Japanese toy maker that was Japan's largest and the world's third largest at the time. The merger, planned as a $1 billion stock swap whereby Sega would wholly acquire Bandai, was set to form a planned company known as Sega Bandai, Ltd. Plans for the merger were necessitated by the struggling financial state of both Sega and Bandai, with Bandai announcing their anticipated loss for the fiscal year and Sega announcing a lower than expected profit. Initially planned to be finalized in October of that year, the merger was called off in May 1997. The following day, Bandai president Makoto Yamashina resigned his position, taking responsibility for the failed merger and apologizing publicly for his inability to get the merger completed. In a separate press conference, Nakayama elaborated on his reason for agreeing to cancel the acquisition of Bandai, stating, "We will not be successful working together if Bandai's management cannot take hold of people's hearts." As a result of the company's deteriorating financial situation, Nakayama resigned as president of Sega in January 1998 in favor of Irimajiri. It has been speculated that Nakayama's resignation was in part due to the failure of the Sega Bandai merger, as well as Sega's 1997 performance.

You must be living under a rock or just want to shit on Japanese companies for everything they do. These companies apologize all the fucking time and have important key people resign for their fuck ups or get demoted. Where is Tom Kalinske's apology for the 32x?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:05:35 2023 No.10072852 >>10072835 They should have done it Sony-style and used EIGHT cpus in their Dreamcast.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:18:40 2023 No.10072876 SoAsisters....

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:50:04 2023 No.10072932 >>10072848 Most of these are only after public outcry or complaints. They were not done willingly. Only reluctantly.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:54:09 2023 No.10072942 >>10062362 >Tom Kalinske I thought he committed suicide because he was in jail for sending those bombs. No doubt because he was enraged at the 32X not selling.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:56:00 2023 No.10072946 >>10072942 Tom left Sega and worked at another company and made that company a success too.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 03:56:06 2023 No.10072948 SoA retarded faggots still being in denial and STILL believe in Kalinske's lies just goes to show how brainwashed they are.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:00:27 2023 No.10072963 >>10072932 Holy cope.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:01:28 2023 No.10072965 >>10072946 Which company?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:01:55 2023 No.10072968 >>10072946 I made the joke too obscure. I was pretending to confuse Tom Kalinske with Ted Kaczynski. My bad. But thank you for the information just the same anon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:02:41 2023 No.10072971 >>10072932 >Most of these I thought your point is that they would rather die than admit they fucked up, no?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:04:59 2023 No.10072975 >>10072971 Anon he's the Japanese expert and kept saying how if one makes a mistake, they are ostracized forever and will be homeless after 24 hours after their fuck ups, no way he's wrong!

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:32:41 2023 No.10073041 >>10072971 No. The point is Japanese companies are very resistant against admitting failures when compared against American companies.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:36:24 2023 No.10073049

>>10073041
Okay, so the other anon proved you wrong because Japanese companies admit failure all the time, and American companies also don't apologize unless they get backlash from consumers, so same with Japanese companies anyways. What's your excuse now?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:42:10 2023 No.10073056 >>10073049 We are comparing the average of Japanese companies admitting failure VS American companies. The average favors American companies far more.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:48:03 2023 No.10073068

>>10073056
No, the entire argument was that Asians/Japanese try their hardest to avoid responsibility and become a huge outcast, which is dead wrong and anon posted multiple proofs refuting that claim. Unless you give us the exact statistics where Americans companies admitting failure vs Japanese companies admitting failure, you're wasting everyone's time. Last reply from me if you don't give a definitive proof and not just a troll wanting to waste time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:49:34 2023 No.10073072 >>10073056 We all know the only reason they hired Tom in the first place is because they couldn't make the SMS and MD successful, if they can admit that why would they be lying about the Saturn?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 04:57:21 2023 No.10073093 >>10073068 Why even humor this retard over "muh statistics", it isn't even part of the main argument. He's just some bitter SoAfag that can't admit Kalinske was a fuckup, ignore him and move on.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 05:00:27 2023 No.10073098

>>10073072
>We all know the only reason they hired Tom in the first place is because they couldn't make the SMS and MD successful,
Only the Japanese Sega CEO at the time was willing to take a chance on Tom Kalinske, and he went against the other Japanese board of Executives to do it. Most of them didn't want an American with brand new ideas running a branch of Sega.

>if they can admit that why would they be lying about the Saturn?
Because the Saturn was a huge cock up and brought Sega financially to its knees. Big difference. Nobody wants to take the blame for that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 05:00:48 2023 No.10073102 >>10056574 SoA and SoJ are both guilty of their own fuckups. They had some W's here and there but not enough for either side to offset the L's.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 05:28:07 2023 No.10073129 >>10073102 Wtf are you talking about. SoA (and SoE) were responsible for overthrowing Nintendo's near monopoly on the home gaming market. SoJ couldn't do crap against Nintendo on their own in Japan. SoA and SoE brought MASSIVE wins for Sega.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 05:51:50 2023 No.10073163 >>10072942 wrong TK, dude

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 06:09:08 2023 No.10073178 >>10073049 >>10073068 sony and install other OS sony and hacker theft during ps3 nintendo and... almost anything auto makers and the pre-covid emissions fraud off the top of head...

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 06:09:37 2023 No.10073180 >>10073129 He might have sold units but it seems like he sold the genesis for too cheap to make a profit. The leaks also talk about large numbers of unsold units which probably means they were cooking numbers or retail stuffing

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 06:26:51 2023 No.10073195 >>10056574 Let's be no cap about this. Sega Channel was the last successful thing Sega ever did and both the Saturn and 32x were pooped pants.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 06:50:06 2023 No.10073241 >>10073180 >muh leaks Stop believing every unverified thing you read on the internet. If you want true info, look at Sega's stock price over the years, their market share and their Financials disclosed to the public. That tells the real tale.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 06:55:07 2023 No.10073253 >>10073241 So you think someone made up the recent leaks?

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 12:56:18 2023 No.10073738

>>10073098
>Only the Japanese Sega CEO at the time was willing to take a chance on Tom Kalinske
This wasn't even the first time they trird to hire Tom during the early SMS days and he rejected the offer for having no faith in the console, it wasn't an once in a life time thing.
Also who gives a fuck about the executives? He's the CEO, he's the only one who really matters.
>Big difference. Nobody wants to take the blame for that.
Seems like SoA doesn't want the blame either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 12:58:08 2023 No.10073742 >>10073241 >Stop believing every unverified thing you read on the internet They were verified, idiot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 13:09:58 2023 No.10073763 >>10073241 Dumbass, Tom cutting the price of the genesis was something that actually happened and the retail stuffing isn't new.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 14:03:39 2023 No.10073846

>>10073180
>>10073763
>He might have sold units but it seems like he sold the genesis for too cheap to make a profit.
That's the best way to blow your bigger competitors out of the market. The fact that Mega Drive gained a significant foothold among the western audience while being unpopular in Japan proved that it was a successful strategy. So now, the Sega brand had a huge presence in the video game industry. It was time to reap the profit, and it was up to the SoJ not to make the Saturn a disappointment, but they utterly failed at that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 14:07:57 2023 No.10073856 File: 206 KB, 1024x1024, DRbQ7wsX0AAuKkm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Could the Saturn have lasted a bit longer if a mainline sonic game was released on it, or would it still have been dead in the water?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 14:09:27 2023 No.10073862 >>10073856 It could've lasted a bit longer if it didn't cost 500 fucking dollars to manufacture.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 14:28:59 2023 No.10073894 >>10073846 Nice goalpost moving retard. >>10073856 Yes, no Sonic was a no buy for americans. But it needed to be on launch or near it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 14:30:58 2023 No.10073902 >>10073846 >Just bleed money with each console you sell bro Bernie...

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 15:24:34 2023 No.10074017 >>10073902 Tell that to the SoJ console dept. >produce the sharturd for $500 per unit

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:02:52 2023 No.10074101 >>10074017 Not how it works. Consoles are always sold at a loss in order for consumers to buy them without selling their own kidney, selling someone at a bigger loss than what's a commonly done is nothing short of shooting yourself in the foot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:03:53 2023 No.10074102 >>10074101 *selling something at a bigger loss Fuck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:10:34 2023 No.10074116 >>10074017 >>10073846 >Reply chain is about the genesis and Tom >"SHITSHARTTURDFUCKFECESCRAPCUMPEE AAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!" Mind? Broken

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:14:54 2023 No.10074125 >>10073902 It could've worked out if SoJ hadn't been dumb and just not included the otherwise worthless Mil-CD, which allowed for easy piracy. Software sales would've made up for the deficit brought by offering a cheaper console.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:17:44 2023 No.10074131 >>10074125 The dreamcast sales were dropping way too much once the ps2 came out for sega to fully recover, at best you're slowing the invevitable.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:20:50 2023 No.10074139 >>10074101 How much did Sega lose for each genesis sold? They lost up to $200 for each Saturn.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:26:52 2023 No.10074151

>>10074139
Saturn was sold at $400, so that would be a $100 until like a month after the PS1 came out.
>How much did Sega lose for each genesis sold?
No idea, although i will say that the retail stuffing significantly cut the profits they'd otherwise have without it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:28:32 2023 No.10074157 >>10073846 You still have the question of profits. If they were actually making money then Sega wouldn't have been so desperate and they would've had money to continue on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:33:03 2023 No.10074170 >>10074151 Saturn's price discounted to $300 only a few months after its US launch, and in 1996 when it finally only costs $230 to produce, it was cut down to $199, and in 1997 it was only $149. The Saturn kept losing massive amounts of money.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:37:09 2023 No.10074181 >>10074170 Probably because nobody was buying it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:53:25 2023 No.10074220 >>10058896 By the time Halo and the xbox came out, the Dreamcast was well dead and buried.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 16:58:25 2023 No.10074235 >>10072369 But here's how the 32X could have been a huge hit...

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:04:18 2023 No.10074252

>>10070071
>Sega of America being horribly behind in getting software ready for it. If Sega of America instead focused on getting good software ready for Saturn
SoA, for all their fuckups, weren't the ones making Saturn devkits the size of a mini fridge that only allowed debugging on one processor at a time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:06:35 2023 No.10074265 >>10074252 SoJ didn't even have devkits right out of the bat lol.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:11:59 2023 No.10074284 >>10074265 And then they made the more streamlined SGI kits, but of course only glorious nippon devs got them first. Gaijin will just have to make due with the fridge kits and poor documentation. But somehow that's all SoA's fault.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:13:25 2023 No.10074286 >>10074284 This entire thread is all about how Sega as a whole was always shit though.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:18:22 2023 No.10074303

>>10074286
There's no arguing both divisions were retarded. It's just pathetic that despite all evidence pointing to that, you have retarded fanboys of one side saying the other side sabotaged everything and is the root cause of Sega's decaying console business. I'm just surprised it took two days for someone to point out how the Saturn fanboy is retarded in ignoring the well known issue of how Japan dragged their asses in getting the actual tools for making Saturn games out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:32:07 2023 No.10074325 >>10074303 Well said, anon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:45:57 2023 No.10074345 >>10073902 It actually was a legit strategy for computers and gaming at that time. Commodore was known for trying to price point rivals out of the market.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:48:37 2023 No.10074351 >>10074181 Well Gee, thanks for that detective.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:49:41 2023 No.10074353 >>10074125 >piracy meme Fuck off. That memes been debunked a quadrillion times already.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:51:41 2023 No.10074358 >>10074345 >Commodore was known for trying to price point rivals out of the market. And how well did that turn out?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 17:54:02 2023 No.10074362 >>10074351 Original point of this discussion was that they also lost a ton of money prior to the saturn. It putting salt on the wound isn't really relevant.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 18:53:38 2023 No.10074529 So was there any 3d chip that could've put the Saturn on par or better than PS1? From what I saw in the thread the SH chips weren't too great t. retard who knows next to nothing about graphics

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 18:55:11 2023 No.10074535 >>10074358 They did, in fact, price many rivals out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 20:51:45 2023 No.10074763 >>10074358 Pretty well. The system lasted from 1983 to 1993

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:02:33 2023 No.10074786

>>10073738
>Also who gives a fuck about the executives? He's the CEO, he's the only one who really matters.
Only if you are CEO because you own more than half of the company.

If not, then you are just a CEO who was appointed to the position because the other Executives (Board of Directors) feel you could do the job well. You basically played politics, and worked your way to the top. Executives of other departments wield great influence. You can't run a company if they don't cooperate with the CEO. Executives can also vote out a CEO if enough are dissatisfied with their performance.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:17:16 2023 No.10074816

>>10074157
Which is why we told you to look at the public financials and the stock price of Sega during those years. Actual verifiable information. Not random leaks from 30 years ago.

Sega was doing very well because SoA's actions with the Genesis. The stock price was good, and they were financially in a great position to launch the Saturn. Since SoJ didn't want to listen to SoA regarding the design of the Saturn, then It was entirely up to SoJ to not screw up with the Saturn. But SoJ dropped the ball hard outside of Japan.

After the failure of the Saturn, Sega had taken a big beating financially. To be blunt, they were no financial position to make another game console. SoJ should have exited the console market after the failure of the Saturn, and become a 3rd Party Developer. SoJ blew their last reserves on the Saturn. The gas tank was empty. But SoJ decided to borrow cash from banks, and bet the entire company on the Dreamcast. It was Great system, but a freaking terrible idea to borrow money to launch a console. Dreamcast only lasted 18 months because Sega couldn't pay their bills. Sega went from a battered (but a still recoverable) company, to a company that was in deep debt and bankruptcy.

And you had the crazy Sega of Japan CEO yelling "BANZAI! Sega is the best!!!" while his company was burning down around him. They should have listened to Tom Kalinske's ideas for the Saturn, and never let him resign.

So ends the tale of Sega.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:27:37 2023 No.10074836 >>10074816 Why don't you post the evidence?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:42:04 2023 No.10074864 Why don't we have fanfic threads about Atari?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:46:13 2023 No.10074873 File: 18 KB, 961x597, 1658198720913.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10074836 Evidence? You mean Stock price? Revenue? Anon its all public info.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:47:57 2023 No.10074876 >>10074864 I post jaguar fanfic threads but I cant crank out the board spam that mentally ill unemployed Sonic fans can

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:48:52 2023 No.10074879 >>10074873 Imagine how much more money they'd had if Tom didn't retail stuffing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:51:18 2023 No.10074889 >>10074876 Do it, i'd give your thread a few (You)s.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:53:24 2023 No.10074894 >>10074816 Stock price doesn't mean jack shit. Numbers are propped up all the time. The fact of the matter is that everything from the Saturn onwards was rushed as fuck and SoA was desperate to stick with the genesis

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 21:54:13 2023 No.10074895 Sonic 3 was just some months away from the Saturn's launch and it had to be devided into base game and Sonic & Knuckles. Perhaps SoJ should've told Yuji Naka to make that game for the saturn instead.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 22:02:27 2023 No.10074912

>>10074876
the only mentally ill sonic fan pumping out threads here is thatguy from sega-16 who translated grandia. he keeps repeatedly bringing up points like how the Saturn wasn't losing money, SOA was the reason they lost money, and posts youtube links of janky homebrew whenever someone says the Saturn had inferior 3d graphics.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 22:08:17 2023 No.10074919 >>10074895 They couldn't wait for the Saturn launch, Sega signed a McDonald's deal that meant 3 had to be released by Feburary '94 to coincide with the promotion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 22:14:03 2023 No.10074930 >>10074919 Oh well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 22:50:09 2023 No.10074996 >>10074358 C64 launched for $595 while only costing $150 to produce. Imagine how well it was doing financially. Commodore were never losing money no matter how cheap they sold the C64 for. Tramiel was a genius.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 22:52:38 2023 No.10075000 >>10074894 >confronted with real hard data >NoooOoOo real data doesn't mean anything!! Lmao. You are no longer arguing in good faith. Gg. I accept your concession.

Anonymous Mon Jul 17 22:55:18 2023 No.10075009

>>10074362
The difference was before the saturn, they lost money while stealing half of the western video game market from nintendo's monopoly. They didn't lose money, they bought a market share. Shartturd literally bought nothing but consumer disappointment and embarassment to the table thoughever.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 23:02:49 2023 No.10075038 >>10074816 >Which is why we told you to look at the public financials the result of retail stuffing to prop numbers up to show gains, then huge losses later, it was all bullshit

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 23:05:01 2023 No.10075047 >>10075000 >they bought a market share Wasn't Sega losing those when donkey kong launched because "Ha! You need an add on for 3D!"?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 23:09:38 2023 No.10075059 >>10074873 /thread

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 23:10:38 2023 No.10075061 Perhaps the real solution was somehow going back in time and launch Sonic 1 on the master system back in 1986 so that faggot Tom would accept the first offer and Sega would have way more brand loyality by the time the Saturn came around.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 23:49:59 2023 No.10075149 I can't believe there are so many corporate simps for Sega of Japan. Pathetic. Newsflash. If SoJ knew what they were doing, they wouldn't need an American CEO. They would have already been successful.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 17 23:57:34 2023 No.10075178 >>10075149 To be fair, all Tom did was put Sonic on the box. >But the aggressive marketing! Was already a thing before he got the seat. The "Genesis does" thing doesn't belong to him.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 00:15:39 2023 No.10075243

>>10074529

This is the gaming generation where graphics chips started handling additional rendering and math instead of only managing display outputs, so CPU isn't quite as critical as the overall architecture.

the SH series chips in hindsight are actually very good for this application. But their implementation on the Saturn has some serious shortcomings(dma controller can't see all the ram, a few other workflow weirdnesses), the SH platform was relatively new so the programmer base was much much smaller than the near 25 years of the 68k series.

If Sega, japan or america, deep funded developmental support, there's lots of potentially interesting things going on. Thinking of the SH alone, it was not a terrible choice, and its descendant in the DC proved that. But it was one bump in a road of potholes.

>>10074816
>public financials

ok

>and the stock price

now thats fucking dumb. Market valuation has shit-all to do directly with profitability. At most, it can affect their ability to leverage credit.

>>10074879
this is what has more to do with quarter to quarter profitability than stock prices.

>>10074919
and this came up in one of the leak docs; over focus on co-branding marketing deals

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 00:39:02 2023 No.10075285

>>10075243
>If Sega, japan or america, deep funded developmental support, there's lots of potentially interesting things going on
The saturn is inherently inferior to the PS1. The PS1 has a much more powerful 3D capability and very easy to follow 3D rendering pipeline. Saturn is garbage and sega legitimately didn't know if they wanted to make a 2D or 3D console. It could never get good no matter how much money you throw at it. It's an inherently flawed design.

>Market valuation has shit-all to do directly with profitability.
>over focus on co-branding marketing deals
High market valuation means that Sega was a very strong brand. They're supposed to make a bank in the 5th gen era, they lost money but the market was ready to buy their next product. But no, they released an actual piece of shit. SoJ kept all saturn development internal to the company and refused to lend their 3D arcade department to help with the project. They're the reason it was doomed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 00:53:09 2023 No.10075329 >>10075038 >the result of retail stuffing to prop numbers up to show gains, then huge losses later, it was all bullshit Citation needed. We need to see your evidence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 00:55:05 2023 No.10075337 >>10075285 >It could never get good no matter how much money you throw at it. It's an inherently flawed design. Because?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 01:00:56 2023 No.10075357 >>10075337 Do we really need to do this again? You know why the Saturn hardware design is troublesome and inefficient. Not to mention complaints from 3rd Party Developers over the years about the Saturn.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 01:04:56 2023 No.10075369 >>10075357 I'd rather believe someone who has actual hardware knowledge that can state whatever each component does than you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 01:18:31 2023 No.10075419 >>10075337 >Because? Because if something is fundamentally flawed (the deepest level/foundational), then you can't patch it with just more money. It needs to be redesigned.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 01:18:50 2023 No.10075421

>>10075285
>High market valuation means that Sega was a very strong brand.

goalpoast moving.

strong brand ≠ profitable

>The saturn is inherently inferior to the PS1.

In a couple ways clearly. Not having a dedicated video codec for example (expansion cart does not count). If it did, it could have done some neat fucking things with the vdp2 and video streams...

but not nearly as absolute a smackdown. The 2d dedicated games show that.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 01:26:31 2023 No.10075447

Saturn failed for several major reasons:

1. Very poor hardware choices that made things difficult for developed when it should have been easier.

2. Very poor marketing decisions by Sega

3. Extremely poor documentation and devkits for 3rd party developers.

4. Price was too high.

5. Bad line up for games. No Sonic. No sequels to any Sega Genesis hit franchises like Streets of Rage. Bad sports games.

Anyone who argues otherwise is just being stubborn.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 01:28:22 2023 No.10075449 >>10075447 >Bad sports games. Were they? I don't hear much about those.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:09:38 2023 No.10075554 >>10075369 Just ask the Sonic R dev then. He had to work days and nights bare metal coding that shit to get something merely on the level of PS1.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:18:07 2023 No.10075574

>>10075421
>In a couple ways clearly.
In every way. PS1 was designed with game developers in mind, Sony invited third party devs to state what kind of features they want from the 3D system they were designing. As a result, the PS1 had a very easy to grasp rendering pipeline. Compare that to the incredibly careless development of the Saturn here >>10070552
>The 2d dedicated games show that.
If people only wanted 2D games they'd get the nes/snes/genesis/gameboy.
>strong brand ≠ profitable
Strengthening your brand is a costly process. Microsoft lost billions of dollars establishing the Xbox brand. They lost hundreds of billions dollars further down the road to give Xbox exclusivity deals in the recent years. Sega was lucky they got SoA that spent less to get more than what Microsoft did.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:19:26 2023 No.10075578

>>10075554
The point that anon was making is that the components on the Saturn are not actually bad but they were they were implement and programmed to work on the hardware was a mess.
The Saturn as is right now (or rather then) sucking doesn't really disprove that point.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:22:01 2023 No.10075581 >>10075574 >Sega was lucky they got SoA that spent less to get more than what Microsoft did. Pretty sure the 360 and one all sold more than the genesis.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:32:05 2023 No.10075605

>>10075581
Xbox 360 is what the Saturn should have been. Microsoft made a bank after bleeding billions of dollars to establish the Xbox brand. They swiftly stole the market from Sony and decimated the PS3. That's what Sega was supposed to be doing to Nintendo. They had a huge opportunity back then, the Mega Drive outperformed the SNES and the N64 development was in shambles. They were in a much stronger position than Microsoft was back when they released the Xbox 360. But, the Saturn absolutely fumbled the football. Sega shot themselves in the foot right when they had the chance to be the second place next to Sony.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:34:51 2023 No.10075610 >>10075605 Please understand, Naka was on vacation and the Streets of rage they...nvm, i can't excuse that one.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:40:22 2023 No.10075626

>>10075605
Xbox 360 also lost money. They lucked into first place by Sony shooting themselves in the foot, but it was never profitable. Are you forgetting how they had to essentially refund the entire first few years worth of consoles?
Sega couldn't just lose money like Sony or Microsoft and stay in business.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:52:42 2023 No.10075642

>>10075626
>Xbox 360 also lost money.
>it was never profitable
From hardware sales alone, and nowhere as much as what Sony lost from PS3 hardware. They made $400-$600 million dollar net income a year from the gaming division.
https://www.engadget.com/xbox-game-pass-core-replaces-live-gold-on-september-14th-143904124.html
https://venturebeat.com/games/microsofts-xbox-360-revenues-grow-but-profits-dip-in-holiday-quarter/
>Are you forgetting how they had to essentially refund the entire first few years worth of consoles?
They screwed up by choosing the wrong suppliers for the components there, but that's not something inevitable. Also, 7th gen consoles are much more hungry than 5th gen consoles and thus very sensitive to poor quality capacitors and many other factors. And also, refunded consoles were recycled into new ones so it wasn't a total loss.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 02:55:50 2023 No.10075648 >>10075626 >Sega couldn't just lose money like Sony or Microsoft and stay in business. They still had the resource to produce the Saturn and Dreamcast. They weren't going out of business just yet.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 03:21:25 2023 No.10075715
File: 46 KB, 700x350, game genies.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10075626
They knew the early launch would have the consoles fucked, they still did it anyway because it gave them a gigantic userbase lead, for one entire year they were the only next gen console, and even later on the PS3 cost a ton more AND only had crap games for years. Microsoft could've won that entire generation clean, but they danced away all their lead on the Kinect while Sony finally started releasing actual good games.

PS3 having nogaems was a very well deserved /v/ meme.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 03:22:43 2023 No.10075718 File: 153 KB, 830x450, 1243269914802.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10075715 >PS3 having nogaems was a very well deserved /v/ meme. and also having no good games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 03:24:37 2023 No.10075724 >>10075718 And now the ps5 has no games either.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 17:47:59 2023 No.10077257

>>10070703
>Why didn't they hire third parties?
Who cares? Ultimately everyone knows what Virtua Racing is, but the only one who knows about No Second Prize is you. lmao

Nah, but I'm kidding. Some good insights in your post. I guess Sega was too arcade-oriented (see how the Mega Drive controller was based on the JAMMA standard) and figured the tech and know-how that originated from the works with Lockheed Martin would trickle down from the arcades into the console business. As it turns out, they were only half-wrong, and for what it's worth, on the arcade side of business, nobody would be able to touch Sega for years.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 19:55:13 2023 No.10077586 >>10077257 Isn't Sega mostly known for arcades in Japan anyway? I remember reading that sonic is barely known about in Japan despite having such an international popularity back in the day

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 20:16:30 2023 No.10077642

>>10059416
yeah, I was a kid when the whole sega cd/32x thing was happening. It was absurd.
However, to be honest it just came down to games. Not the console. A lot of people didn't have faith in sony at the time because "What does a MUSIC company know about video games?!?!?"

people would try to argue that n64 or sega saturn was technically superior and even if you believed them, it didn't really matter because sega had tomb raider, resident evil, final fantasy 7, castlevania sotn, parappa the rapper, etc.
Saturn had Panzer Dragoon and that was about it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 20:17:58 2023 No.10077649 >>10075718 >>10075715 I disagree, it was just wiicope over having no games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 18 20:25:29 2023 No.10077670 >>10072753 Cut the jingo shit, Americans are excellent at blame shifting, hence your post, you pork-filled mutt.

Anonymous Tue Jul 18 21:22:14 2023 No.10077857

>>10075285
>High market valuation means that Sega was a very strong brand
And retarded thinking like this enabled the dotcom bubble, and all the infamous accounting fraud scandals around the same time.
valuation doesn't mean shit if the company is fudging the numbers to look better, it's all made up fairytales that investors still fall for to this day.

Anonymous Wed Jul 19 00:56:35 2023 No.10078415

Alright then /vr/ should Genesis have been extended another year or so or were they right to cancel that shit early forcing the US branch to wait out until the Saturn? To me it seems like letting the Genesis go another couple years with peripherals (not 32X as it was though) and more new games was actually the smart idea. Saturn should have cooked a bit longer in the oven. Just look at what we have seen since then. Past gens get a gradual phasing out but not outright abandoned. It should always be a gradual phasing out so support should continue even during the successor gen.

We have mostly seen this from later generations but Microsoft has occasionally shown how cancerous they can be with support being dropped. I guess in their defense the 16-bit generation was early enough in gamings entire life cycle that maybe they thought it was smarter to drop the gen like a used whore but I wouldn't give them that credit. Support for just a bit longer was clearly the intelligent thing here even back then. Fuck SOJ.

Anonymous Wed Jul 19 01:10:52 2023 No.10078450

>>10077857
The bubble will only pop when the company is unable to deliver a good product. The Xbox bubble didn't pop.

>>10078415
The 32X was too expensive and power hungry to be successful. They was about to release the Sega Virtua Processor add-on which wouldn't need a power connector, but canceled in favor of the much more powerful 32X. I think the SVP add-on would've been more successful thanks to its lower price and higher practicality despite having worse performance and less memory.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 01:15:00 2023 No.10078457 >>10060039 This is some serious misinformation gaslighting here. No gaming was not crashing at that time you fucking idiot.

Anonymous Wed Jul 19 01:16:32 2023 No.10078460

>>10060639
They were for a short period of time you fucking retard. Jesus you people are stupid and can't seem to understand context in anything. That doesn't mean they were market leaders for the entirety of the gen like we often see with Sony spanking Microsoft.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 01:42:24 2023 No.10078510 >>10077670 No matter how much you defend the Sega Saturn on an obscure message board, you will never be loved by the Japanese. You will never be Japanese, and you will never gain their approval.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 02:02:26 2023 No.10078564 >>10078510 >t.Latino who wants to be american

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 02:04:14 2023 No.10078569 >>10078457 nintendo just pulled out of half of the stores in the world because there wasn't a crash in 1993, right.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 03:06:05 2023 No.10078696 >>10078564 Nobody wants to be an amerifat.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 04:26:11 2023 No.10078820 >>10062362 Whaaat, I thought the unabomber passed away recently.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 04:27:13 2023 No.10078826 File: 186 KB, 1238x720, my opinion.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10078696 >Nobody wants to be an amerifat.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 04:48:28 2023 No.10078860 >>10075718 >>10077649 The PS3 turned out to be the best of the 7th gen consoles anyway. Anyone who still believes in the "no gaems" meme at this point never outgrew the 2006 poorfag console warrior mentality.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 04:51:32 2023 No.10078865 >>10078696 >Nobody wants to be an amerifat. Europeans and South Americans have gotten pretty fat too.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 05:05:42 2023 No.10078887 >>10078696 Europe here. Not only do I see plenty of fat people, I'm starting to see them riding around in those scooters made for disabled people and fatasses here too.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 05:32:26 2023 No.10078919 >>10078450 The SVP add-on was more likely to have been killed because they found out that Samsung shafted them on the chips. And it did not add extra colors either.

Anonymous Wed Jul 19 05:36:15 2023 No.10078926
File: 40 KB, 555x800, PS4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10075724
>And now the ps5 has no games either.

to be fair, the ps4 didn't have any games early on either.

>>10078860
ps3 ended up the best because both Nintendo and Microsoft shot themselves in the foot like 3 years into the generation with the Kinect and the Wii U. and hardware wise the ps3 was an abortion.

Anonymous Wed Jul 19 05:47:06 2023 No.10078947

>>10078860
>The PS3 turned out to be the best of the 7th gen consoles anyway.
Nah it was shit and it stayed shit. RDR2 stuttered up the ass and skyrim was straight up a broken mess on the system. The only exclusives really worth getting on it are the naughty dog games, little big planet, and killzone 2.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 06:05:40 2023 No.10078973 >>10078926 Wii U was a misstep, but Nintendo had problems with the home console segment even before it launched in 2012. If you look at the charts, the Wii fell off a cliff circa spring 2010. Hence their scramble to prop up the 3DS in 2011.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 06:10:12 2023 No.10078979 >>10078947 Yeah, but x360 and wii u didn't even have those, so the ps3 wins by default.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 10:06:25 2023 No.10079205 >>10078926 >the ps4 didn't have any games early on either The ps5 is almost three years old now. Is it still early?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 19 10:39:58 2023 No.10079253 >>10058962 >boss that looked like hitler Which one is he talking about? Or did they change it for the jp version as well? I just flipped through the jp manual and couldn't find anything.

Anonymous Wed Jul 19 11:44:44 2023 No.10079313

>>10074912
SoJ simp threads have been a /vr/ staple for at least 2 years and counting.
>..if they just released more SNES-looking JRPGs in 1996..
>..yes but SoA held them at knifepoint and forced them to..
>..the saturn is more powerful than playstation you just have to put in 8x more time and effort for 70% of the results (posts footage of burning rangers)..

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 02:52:46 2023 No.10081187 whats with zillennials obsession of defending sega

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 02:58:52 2023 No.10081194 >>10069770 Kys '92 Xmas hold right to win casual spindashbaby 3&K > 1 > 2 > CD

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 03:02:41 2023 No.10081204 >>10069750 >Except they didn't insist on it. >Al Nilsen said that he shut down the project 3 times before leaving Sega >"B-BUT SOJ DIDN'T INSIST ON IT!!!" Fuck right off SOJ came up with the stupid add-on to begin with just like they did with Mega CD

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 03:13:44 2023 No.10081219

>>10069937
>>10069950
Love how you conveniently ignored that Nintendo continued supporting the NES until 1993/94 because it proves that you are full of shit
So yeah it had nothing to do with any deal falling through(whether it's Sony or Silicon Graphics).

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 03:17:37 2023 No.10081225

>>10079313
The Saturn would have done better in the US if they released a lot of those Japanese exclusives.
The Dreamcast was also launched too soon.

It's beyond fucking unreasonable for the consumer to buy a console every 4 years, especially when the Genesis lasted like 6 years.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 03:21:19 2023 No.10081235 >>10058962 TBF that baseball game does have some crazy graphics But it's stupid that they wanted to reject Gunstar Heroes nonetheless

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 06:12:17 2023 No.10081505

>>10081225
>The Dreamcast was also launched too soon
Largely in part due to them fucking up with Saturn kek
The only wager I can make is that if Sega went with a DVD drive instead of a modem for Dreamcast, things may have worked out very differently even with a single analog stick. The first half of the 2000s was the golden age for DVD. Online didn't really go mainstream on console until Halo 2 came out in late 2004/2005, and it didn't become such a major component of games until the X360/PS3 era.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 06:28:16 2023 No.10081534

>>10081505
>if Sega went with a DVD drive instead of a modem for Dreamcast, things may have worked out very differently
The weak CPU and obsolete GPU compared to the later consoles was a more pressing issue for the DC than the GD-ROM drive. A 2000 release DC would need a more powerful kyro based GPU, smaller VRAM to offset the cost, at least 32MB of main RAM, and a 450Mhz SH4.
>even with a single analog stick
Nah that's objectively shit. They should at least give the right thumb a trackball.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 21:56:18 2023 No.10083221

>>10081219

it doesn't seem right to compare the NES overlap with the SNES all the way to 94, where a whopping 10 games released all year. and anything release in 93 would have been developing since at least Q1 1992, and the SNES only launched in early fall 91 of NA. so.... yeah....

but here's the point and question: If the SNEScd was a thing, its very likely it would have dropped within 2 years of launch of the SNES. Do you think that would have changed Nintendo next console plans at all?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:11:50 2023 No.10083261 >>10081534 People played the Wii despite being graphically obsolete compared to its competitors. I could see the dreamcast with DVD isn't of modem doing just fine.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:12:00 2023 No.10083262 >>10074353 >deboonked yeah no. The Dreamcast got hardfucked by piracy, worse than any other console

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:23:03 2023 No.10083285 >>10083262 Not really, the ratio of owned official games to console units was too high for it to really matter. Unless you have the japanese mindset that "1 piracy = 1 copy".

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:38:55 2023 No.10083307

>>10083285
>the ratio of owned official games to console units was too high for it to really matter
you mean the tie ratio? The tie ratio of the Dreamcast was fucking pathetic compared to the Saturn, roughly 17 games sold for every Saturn compared to 8 for a DC. Unlike today where most consoles have very few games made specifically for them, the Dreamcast had about a dozen killer apps, many of those first party games. You can imagine how much money Sega would be losing on every pirated copy, now multiply that by millions of pirated copies and it's no surprise why Sega was in deep shit

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:44:52 2023 No.10083325 >>10083307 The Saturn not only had more games but it also had twice the life span of the Dreamcast.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:47:56 2023 No.10083338 >>10056962 >It's not that Japan didn't like the Mega Drive, it's just that PC Engine was really popular. MD had a pretty bad drought of games in its first year. PCE built up some good momentum by then

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:51:05 2023 No.10083351 >>10083325 Yeah, because the Dreamcast was killed by piracy dipshit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:52:01 2023 No.10083356 >>10083261 The wii was popular because it had a gimmick. The wii-u's gimmick was stale and nobody bought it because it's so underpowered and couldn't even run last gen titles like skyrim.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:53:27 2023 No.10083364 >>10083351 You're delusional if you genuinely think Sega would've been able to pay their debts had the dreamcast's piracy been lower.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:53:53 2023 No.10083367

>>10083325
>but it also had twice the life span
Not quite. Dreamcast kept getting games in the arcade (via Naomi) up until 2006, whilst the Saturn stopped getting any by 2000.

So, doing the math:
1998 -> 2006 = 8 years for Dreamcast
1994 -> 2000 = 6 years for Sega Saturn

Dreamcast Wins

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:54:29 2023 No.10083368 >>10083356 >The wii was popular because it had a gimmick And because it had games people wanted to play.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:54:45 2023 No.10083371 >>10083364 >shoot someone in the face >hurr durr he would have died from cancer anyway

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:55:45 2023 No.10083378 >>10083367 Expect that ratio number came from when Sega was still in business.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:57:03 2023 No.10083382 >>10071123 but did the SNES out sell it, because that's the generation it was from tard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 22:58:17 2023 No.10083389 >>10083371 DC was killed by a (hype) train called Ps2, buddy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:01:57 2023 No.10083392 >>10074996 >150 That's actually fucking amazing considering it's capabilities and the era. I'm honestly shocked by that kind of margin.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:04:36 2023 No.10083396 >>10083389 This would have been a valid argument if the PS2 had any games before the Dreamcast got discontinued. Which it obviously didn't.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:05:25 2023 No.10083398 File: 49 KB, 1107x672, 347419626_642061721284497_8344923995185304366_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10059335 FMV was based,you are cringe SOURCE: me

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:08:47 2023 No.10083409

>>10083396
It did, and the games were more impressive too. Richard Leadbetter way back when he was at Sega Saturn Magazine in the UK received a Japanese Dreamcast with all the big games like Sonic Adventure and took it around to a ton of game shops in the 90s, letting people try it, demo it, and people were impressed but often had the same conclusion of "if this is what Sega is doing, we can't wait to see what the PS2 is like." Sega ruined their reputation with released and dropped products like the 32x, the poor support for Saturn and it shyed away customers from ever picking up things like the Dreamcast.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:09:58 2023 No.10083413

>>10083396
Anon, the Ps2 broke the world record of most sold console units in the first day the dreamcast set up by a lot.
Even if it didn't have games in the few months they were competing, people knew that eventually the good games would come and kept buying it instead of the DC.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:14:25 2023 No.10083425 >>10083413 The problem is it did have games, and they were a lot more impressive than what was on Dreamcast.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:17:50 2023 No.10083437 >>10083425 The "Dreamcast" era Ps2 games were not that impressive actually.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:22:02 2023 No.10083446 File: 92 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault (5).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10083382 >imagine being butthurt because the system you simp for gets mogged by consoles of a gen prior.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:25:48 2023 No.10083458 >>10083446 >1993 >Genesis is only 6 millions units higher than the master system Uh? I thought it'd be more.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:27:01 2023 No.10083462
File: 848 KB, 562x515, PS2launch.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10083409
>It did, and the games were more impressive too
So what the fuck are these coveted PS2 games that came out in 2000? TTT1? RRV? Armored Core? Wow man, such classics, it's not like the Dremcast was literally the console for fighting and racing games. Sonic Adventure? Jet Grind Radio? Crazy Taxi? Why would I play that when I have all these wonderful games here?

>>10083413
Nobody was beating Sony that gen, point is that Sega had a strong enough game lineup to survive that generation if it wasn't for piracy. Even if they did remain in 3rd/4th place n, they would have been in a much better financial state due to higher software sales, because the system had a shit load of worthwhile exclusives.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:29:05 2023 No.10083465 >>10083462 >point is that Sega had a strong enough game lineup to survive that generation if it wasn't for piracy. Anon, you're coping.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:33:12 2023 No.10083476 >>10083465 >piracy was good for the Dreamcast >Sega lost hundreds of millions from software sales >but muh tie ratio >Dremcast had a much worse tie ratio than the Saturn >but muh PS2 >PS2 had an abysmal launch lineup >but but you're coping am I now?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:38:46 2023 No.10083486 >>10075000 >stock price >real hard data rofl, roflmao even

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:38:49 2023 No.10083487 >>10083476 >piracy was good for the Dreamcast Never said this. Besides, even if without piracy the Sega would get double the profit on software, they would still be in great debt. >PS2 had an abysmal launch lineup And it sold like water.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:40:24 2023 No.10083491 >>10075718 Wait, are they only counting exclusives?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:42:35 2023 No.10083494 Stop the cap, the Ps2 was pirated harder than the Dreamcast and it didn't affect the overall profits at all. Sega simply couldn't keep that thing afloat.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:43:35 2023 No.10083496
File: 583 KB, 2184x1516, FHuLAKAUYAgrUDk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10083462
That launch is very good. If you were around the discourse at the time you'd know peoples jaws were dropping over Smuggler's Run. People hadn't seen worlds that big, where you could go so far and Reiko's model in RR5 was like nothing anyone else had ever seen. Dynasty Warriors 2 had these huge battles that was like nothing else before it, SSX was a generation ahead of rippin riders and trickstyle, the gameplay was tight, effects were insane and the snow was incredibly smooth thanks to the NURB rendering it used, The Bouncer came out in March and showed that the fidelity of Reiko's model in RR5 wasn't a one off and games will have models that detailed that run at 60fps, Onimusha hit in the middle of March and was a show stopper of a game, Zone of the Enders and the iconic MGS2 demo, and a few days later Sega announced the Dreamcast was being discontinued and they were exiting the console business.

The denial about how good the PS2 was from the word go is this weird incestuous delusion I've seen passed around by game journos and fanboys alike. The PS2 was immediately exciting and the games it had from launch til often praised "Fall 2001" were still superb and marked generational leap the Dreamcast couldn't keep up with and widened the gap as it delivered what customers knew were coming from the PS2.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:50:12 2023 No.10083509 >>10083494 Yeah, but Sony can handle some piracy; a small corp such as Sega cannot. ALSO, Sony made way more off hardware sales than Sega did with the DC.

Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:54:51 2023 No.10083525
File: 533 KB, 2048x1536, Dreamcast Launch Swirl 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10083487
again, see >>10083371

>sold like water
tf? The idiom is sold like hotcakes, water doesn't sell, it's overly abundant. If anything, Dreamcast games sold like water because you could pirate them (aka collect rainwater) and burn them (aka distill it) on a CD.

>>10083496
Ok now that's cope.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 20 23:56:50 2023 No.10083530 >>10072942 Blast processing and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:06:52 2023 No.10083546 >>10083367 >Dreamcast kept getting games in the arcade (via Naomi) 1. Naomi is not Dreamcast. It's an arcade platform. They are two different things. 2. Arcade releases are not Dreamcast releases.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:15:44 2023 No.10083558

>>10083546
Yeah, but the arcade games would often get home ports to the DC (see: Under Defeat, Karous, the list goes on).

Also, if we include Sammy's Atomiswave (which is essentially a Dreamcast with another name), that's even more games since they recently got hacked to work on real DC hardware.

Dreamchads just can't stop fucking winning.

Eat shit Saturncels!

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:22:48 2023 No.10083568

>>10083525
There's absolutely no indication that piracy was a main factor on Sega's "demise", not even they acknowledge that.
>>10083558
Arcades were not counted in those ratios, idiots.
The ports doesn't really mean they will be counting the actual cab.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:32:41 2023 No.10083592 >>10083568 >There's absolutely no indication that piracy was a main factor on Sega's "demise" roru rumao even

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:35:57 2023 No.10083606 >>10083592 Post some actual verified proof.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:45:21 2023 No.10083619 >>10083606 Ah yes, let me get a figure on pirated game copies. Do you want me to go back in 2000 and look at how many seeds DC game torrents got or something?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 00:47:25 2023 No.10083621 >>10083619 You could at least have post evidence of someone at Sega acknowlodging the how much of problem piracy was for the dreamcast. Otherwise this is all but a headcanon.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:06:26 2023 No.10083652

>>10083621
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=119647&page=1
Pretty easy to see that piracy was a major concern for SEGA at the time

You know what's headcanon? Whatever the fuck you and your kind are huffing. If piracy wasn't a problem on the dreamcast you wouldn't have so many apologists for it to this fucking day.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34865614

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:12:23 2023 No.10083665

>>10083652
Ok, i suppose i will concede to you in this one.
Also, god, couldn't you have posted something that wasn't clearly typed by an ESL?
> If piracy wasn't a problem on the dreamcast you wouldn't have so many apologists for it to this fucking day.
Not sure how people arguing that piracy wasn't a problem for the DC means it totally was.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:24:04 2023 No.10083682

>>10083665
>Also, god, couldn't you have posted something that wasn't clearly typed by an ESL?
It's an old news article that was most likely scanned from an actual paper dumbfuck, that's why there's formatting errors such as "S A N   F R A N C I S C O". If anyone here is a retarded ESL, it's you
>how much of problem
>The ports doesn't really mean
fucking embarrassing

You don't see people arguing about piracy on the Gamecube or the Vita now do you? That's pretty concrete proof

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:26:23 2023 No.10083687

>>10083652
All companies are concerned about piracy. But the argument here is whether piracy actually affected sales of the Dreamcast. Many would say no. The Dreamcast lost because Sega had a bad reputation because of 3 failed hardware launches, Sega had no money left and was in deep debt, and the Playstation 2 murdered them.

You are also forgetting that Dreamcast used gigabyte discs. Pirates used CDs with a space limitation of about 700mb. This means that only certain Dreamcast games that were smaller than 700mb could actually be pirated onto the Dreamcast.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:32:36 2023 No.10083704 >>10083682 >fucking embarrassing I was typing fast because i'm playing a game on the side, sorry. >You don't see people arguing about piracy on the Gamecube Was that thing even piratable? The mini discs seem like an ass to replicate.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:34:20 2023 No.10083709
File: 64 KB, 1024x1024, 35h554.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10066454
Moore has always drummed things up to make it seem more ridiculous. He was a clickbaiter before clickbaiting existed.

I bet he still produces youtube videos and makes sure the splash image is girls with cleavage or an :O face.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:45:14 2023 No.10083731

>>10064080
I think it had less to do with Nintendo and Sega's mistakes and more to do with the fact that Sony was a consumer electronics giant in the 90s and could afford to put way more money into marketing the PS1 and selling it in way more places than the competition. Think about it. They spent $150 million on FF7's marketing and development ALONE.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 01:54:37 2023 No.10083753

>>10072776
>How do they learn from their mistakes?
As an Asian, you learn how to read between the lines. Let someone else suffer so that you don't have to and make sure that you don't make the mistake to make people realize YOU were the one who fucked up to begin with and the person you threw under the bus wasn't the problem.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 02:12:37 2023 No.10083779

>>10072796
Your "leaks" are just some documents of Japanese Executives putting the blame on the American branch. The American Branch says the same thing about the Japanese branch. Both are equal. How do you determine the truth? You look at their track records.

Tom Kalinske was successful before coming to Sega. Successful during his run at Sega, and was very successful at running another company AFTER leaving Sega.

Let's look at Sega of Japan. Poor success in the Japanese console market in the 80s. Nintendo was kicking their ass. Only major success was overseas sales from North America and Europe during the early to mid 90s. Sega of Japan Executives take control of other branches. Sega immediately gets run into the ground with poor decisions after Tom Kalinske leaves. Their sales and stock value plummets. Sega goes into deep debt. Japanese banks won't lend them more money. Sega nearly declares bankruptcy in Japan. Sega is bought by a slot machine company.

The track records speak for themselves. I believe the Americans and Europeans on this one. Sega of Japan ran the company into the ground and exploded everything they built.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 02:21:24 2023 No.10083793 >>10083779 >Successful during his run at Sega Apparently not much if the genesis only sold a few millions more than the master system by 1993 >>10083446

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 02:32:19 2023 No.10083808 >>10083779 B-b-b-b-but SoJ made all the games therefore they can do literally nothing wrong it's all the gaijin pigs fault la la la la cant hear you

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 02:57:37 2023 No.10083849 >>10083793 So what your saying is: American CEO Tom Kalinske in charge = 66% increase in sales of Genesis over Master System. Japanese Executive in charge = Sega gets bought by a FREAKING SLOT MACHINE COMPANY.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 02:59:25 2023 No.10083853 >>10083446 >>10083793 Sega outsold the SNEZZZ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_in_video_games#Consoles

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:02:59 2023 No.10083859 >>10083849 That youtube screenshot doesnt even have a source. Truth is genesis outsold the snes worldwide that year.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:17:40 2023 No.10083882 >>10083446 Was the master system the most successful console that wasn't popular in america?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:20:15 2023 No.10083887 File: 46 KB, 500x580, sms_sonic.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10083882 Also why did yanks gravitate to the shitty Nezz when the Master System was vastly superiour?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:23:22 2023 No.10083893 >>10083887 3 things. >More games. >The design was lamer/more child-ish compared to the Nes And most importantly >Pause button on the fucking CONSOLE

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:24:29 2023 No.10083895

>>10083652
>Pretty easy to see that piracy was a major concern for SEGA at the time

find any reference that a company says they aren't concerned about piracy.

>>10083704
>Was that thing even piratable? The mini discs seem like an ass to replicate.

...dumbarse

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:29:48 2023 No.10083908 >>10083895 Oh well, sorry for lacking the knowledge.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:35:17 2023 No.10083917 >>10083908 yeah... since people barely kno what a CD is, guess its not unrealistic they didnt know mini CDs and CDRs exist. Fair enough. But also, making strong statements about piracy despite not knowing better...dumbarse

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:48:57 2023 No.10083936 >>10083887 You can count the number of good, unique Master System games using your hands, while you will need at least a few dozen to do the same for the NES. In addition, the NES has a far better soundchip.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 03:55:52 2023 No.10083949 >>10083887 C64 is better than both, yet it sold the least in the US. Americans only consume the most advertised products.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 04:09:46 2023 No.10083979

>>10083936
>You can count the number of good, unique Master System games using your hands, while you will need at least a few dozen to do the same for the NES.
SMS library is a case of quality over quantity. NES is the opposite.

You won't find a better shmup than the R-Type SMS port on NES.
You won't find a better bmup than SMS' Double Dragon on NES.
You won't find a better stack 'em up than Columns on the NES.
You won't find a better jarpig than Phantasy Star on NES.
You won't find a better driving game than Battle OutRun on NES.
You won't find a better action-platformer than Master of Darkness on NES.

Not to mention all the horrid shovelware plaguing the NES library. You're more likely to pick a decent-to-good SMS game at random than you are with a NES game by chance.

>In addition, the NES has a far better soundchip.
Yeah but SMS was better than it in every other aspect. Also if you count the FM Add-on it has better sound than the NES, too.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 04:19:21 2023 No.10083992

>>10083979
>You won't find a better bmup than SMS' Double Dragon on NES.
DD on the SMS is a meme, the hit collision is terrible and the graphics are awful despite being on a superior hardware on top of having too much flickering.
Nes DD makes up for the lack of co-op multiplayer by having a better gameplay.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 04:23:04 2023 No.10083997

>>10083979
>You won't find a better shmup than the R-Type SMS port on NES.
C64 R-Type is not 100% arcade accurate, but looks and plays much better thanks to the silky smooth framerate.
>You won't find a better bmup than SMS' Double Dragon on NES.
Barbarian II is better.
>You won't find a better stack 'em up than Columns on the NES.
Gem'X is better. Plus you get naked badly drawn anime girls as rewards for winning each levels.
>You won't find a better jarpig than Phantasy Star on NES.
Elvira - Mistress Of The Dark, my favourite jarpig
>You won't find a better driving game than Battle OutRun on NES.
Turbo Outrun and Outrun Europa.
>You won't find a better action-platformer than Master of Darkness on NES.
Il Turricano
>FM Add-on
Obliterated by the mighty SID chip.

C64 won.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 04:36:42 2023 No.10084014

>>10083979
>You won't find a better shmup than the R-Type SMS port on NES.

its a pretty damn good port, but R-type borders on kusogame hard. Most Compile shooters are better fun:hard ratio, and they did great nes work.

>You won't find a better bmup than SMS' Double Dragon on NES.
sorry, thats a shit port

>You won't find a better stack 'em up than Columns on the NES.
really? ok you're stretching now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 05:14:02 2023 No.10084091 >>10083979 >You won't find a better action-platformer than Master of Darkness on NES. Castlevania and Castlevania 3 obliterate it. Same for shmups where the NES Konami releases, hell, even their MSX works, are better than R-Type SMS.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 12:46:17 2023 No.10084681 >>10083859 Show me proof

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 12:47:47 2023 No.10084690 File: 106 KB, 753x698, fourthgen.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10083446 Genesis outsold the SNES almost everywhere my boy

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 12:48:16 2023 No.10084691 >>10083853 >go on Wikipedia and delete the NES stats >post it to /vr/ to talk shit

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 12:52:42 2023 No.10084701 File: 714 KB, 466x645, 1646865178794-image3.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10084681 >>10084690 >>10083853

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 12:53:16 2023 No.10084702 >>10084690 >filters to the 4th gen so as to ignore the embarrassment that Genesis was getting btfo by a system released in '83.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 12:55:34 2023 No.10084705 >>10084702 Yeah the famicom isn't the super famicom

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:04:14 2023 No.10084945 >>10084705 It is not, and yet it absolutely rawdogged Sega. Double the amount of sales when all is said and done.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:09:58 2023 No.10084959
File: 221 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It boggles my mind how Saturn fans are trying to subtly undermine and retcon the success of the Genesis in the west. It was the one SEGA console that truly gave Nintendo a run for their money, it sold better than the Saturn, and most of the games have aged way better than the Saturn, 2D games and shmups included. I want SEGA on a CD I play SEGA CD or Dreamcast. If I want PS1 I play PS1.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:13:32 2023 No.10084967
File: 332 KB, 1280x720, Daytona-USA-Sega-Saturn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>10084959
Also worth pointing out that none of those obscure shmups had anything to do with Saturn's success in the west, people bought it mostly for sports and fighting games. Only good shmups on it anyway are the Konami shmups and a handful of others, some of which are Genesis ports

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:19:00 2023 No.10084982

>>10084945
Brick Game rawdogs the NES. NES was only popular because it's the poverty tier garbage bin console for impoverished poorfags and parents who buy their toddlers their first console system. It's not on the same level as the mega drive. SNES lost, nintendo lost the 4th gen.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:31:32 2023 No.10085014 File: 90 KB, 960x777, 1cdc9f96edf067b2ddee36467f4f460d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10084982

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:32:42 2023 No.10085017

>>10084945
The NES also had a 4~5 year headstart over the MD, and pretty much the entire industry to itself with no competition due to monopolistic practices and corporate tyranny.

Not a very fair comparison really. It's more telling that Nintendo's been on a downward spiral since the NES unable to make a system as successful as it, proving they're not as good as people tend to claim they were.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:40:35 2023 No.10085036 >>10085017 And yet once you let the dust settle, the NES still outsold Genesis even through its entire life. People still wanted a 10 year old system in the mid-90s over Genesis.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 15:44:18 2023 No.10085046

You newfags need to stop falling for australiakun's bait.
Reminder that if you see keywords such as
>Snezz
>Nezz
>Nintendildo
>Superiour (in the context of exaggerated anti-nintendo shitposting)
Then you're dealing with /vr/'s lolcow, australiakun.
He is not a Sega fan, he does not like japanese video games and I doubt he even likes video games at all. He's just angry about Nintendo and the fact british microcomputer games re forgotten in current year.

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 16:02:39 2023 No.10085078

>>10056724
>There is no "bad guy" in SEGA
They are all the bad guys. Neither headquarters knew how to run a fuckin business, nor how to cut losses and recuperate.
Look at Nintendo. Virtual Boy (failure)/N64 (underperformed/borderline failure)/GameCube (failure)/Pee-You(woww). Yet they are still in the game today thriving because they hedged their bets with Pokemon and the DS. You gotta throw a million shits at the wall to see which one will stick. And when it sticks, go peel that shit off and sell it to the public.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 16:09:59 2023 No.10085094 >SoJ finally talked and exposed SoA for the lying snakes they always were!? N-no! Then they're ALL Bad! aaaarrgghhh not my SoA narrativino!

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 16:12:10 2023 No.10085103
File: 1.75 MB, 476x268, may you get caught.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>You newfags need to stop falling for australiakun's bait.
>Reminder that if you see keywords such as
>>Snezz
>>Nezz
>>Nintendildo
>>Superiour (in the context of exaggerated anti-nintendo shitposting)
>Then you're dealing with /vr/'s lolcow, australiakun.
>He is not a Sega fan, he does not like japanese video games and I doubt he even likes video games at all. He's just angry about Nintendo and the fact british microcomputer games re forgotten in current year.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 16:14:33 2023 No.10085108 >>10085103 >auster reacting to his own spam threads while everyone either laughs at his existence or ignores completely How are your floigan memes going? Got any other gay man join your discord server?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 22:54:27 2023 No.10086054 based.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 21 22:58:42 2023 No.10086064 >>10085108 auster is not floigan guy

Anonymous Fri Jul 21 23:48:52 2023 No.10086185

>>10083979
>Also if you count the FM Add-on it has better sound than the NES, too.
The Japan only add-on, and Japan never really gave a shit about the Mark III. Meanwhile if we go by stock hardware the SMS has three square waves, a noise generator and PCM bruteforced by suspending all CPU use to process it, while the NES has two square waves, a triangle wave, a noise generator and built-in support for DPCM without disrupting the CPU. It's not only a big L for the SMS but it hurts harder since the SMS is using sound hardware dating to the fucking Colecovision when the entire system was meant to surpass the Famicom.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 01:07:10 2023 No.10086437 >>10084945 well yeah, nintendo threatened to pull out of retail chains if they stocked sega until nec told nintendo to cut the shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 02:30:31 2023 No.10086623 >>10086437 Sega should have settled that shit in Japan and Yuzaki'd Nintendo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 02:45:16 2023 No.10086646 >>10056595 they're called returns.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 02:47:09 2023 No.10086652 >>10071123 >zoomer enters the thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 02:48:10 2023 No.10086654 >>10056724 idealistic redditor take. it's not this simple.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 02:58:32 2023 No.10086672 >>10058863 keep the infantile redditorism out of this thread.

Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:02:09 2023 No.10086674

>>10058909
>Some people think it released too soon and the Dreamcast competed against the Saturn.
lmao ridiculous delusion/ignorance, no one had a Saturn, it came out in a totally different technological age compared with the Saturn, and it competed against the PS2 and XBOX, both of which were stellar consoles in addition to the Cube which also had great games like Metroid Prime and Smash Bros Melee.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:16:09 2023 No.10086701 >>10059416 yeah. I never knew a single person who owned a Saturn. all the SegaCD bullshit sapped it of its strength. whoever bought SegaCD didn't buy the same shit again with the Saturn. they bought a PS1 instead.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:22:19 2023 No.10086709 >>10060634 christwigger

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:33:19 2023 No.10086723 >>10062165 lmao. ok. they had money.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:48:21 2023 No.10086745 >>10062469 >Blah-blah moderate success, blah-blah first serious competitor to Game Boy >Blah-blah decent sales, blah-blah some solid titles ok Spoony. we don't need the immature snark and it's not a competition. just analysis.

Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:50:25 2023 No.10086749

>>10086701
Sega CD was good. 32X was good. Saturn sucked balls. I ain't paying $399 for a system that did 3D worse than the PSX, had lackluster third-party support compared to the PSX, and had shitty meme games from Sega such as NiGHTS, Bug, the list goes on.

Fuck the Sega Shiturn.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:50:59 2023 No.10086750 >>10084959 >No master system Opinion discarded, fake fan.

Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:56:17 2023 No.10086760

>>10086749
>had shitty meme games from Sega such as NiGHTS

every time this kind of shit comes up, cant help but wonder how much of it is actual dislike, and how much is fostered resentment for it not being a sonic game, and for the sonic team to dare releasing it before making a sonic game...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 03:58:25 2023 No.10086762 >>10086749 >32x was good >$200 on an add on that still used carts, little to no games and shared a portion of it's library with the segaCD on top of being horribly inferior to the Saturn in every way I will never understand the 32x appologists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:03:52 2023 No.10086769 >>10086762 Sharturn cost 500 bucks to manufacture. 32X should've been a standalone console with a simple 3D geometry coprocessor added.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:08:27 2023 No.10086776 >>10086769 So it could sell even less?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:09:19 2023 No.10086779 >>10056706 It was a bunch of retarded assholes on all sides. There are no good guys, only bad guys.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:11:13 2023 No.10086783 >>10067023 christian isn't an ethnicity. also Disney was bought by jews and that's why it is how it is now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:11:52 2023 No.10086786 >>10086769 You were not talking about a theorical console that doesn't exist, you were talking about the actual 32x that was launched.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:13:56 2023 No.10086793 >>10067045 >help microsoft >push sony out ...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:14:57 2023 No.10086796 >>10068863 inaccurate bs

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 04:40:14 2023 No.10086849 >>10069373 >conflating China and Vietnam with Japan not comparable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 05:51:01 2023 No.10086979 >>10070141 >my own country >it's owned by israelis that hate you >why would I go against the empire that enslaves me

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 06:04:59 2023 No.10087000 >>10072835 they released it ahead of the PS2, GC, and XBOX intentionally to gain market share and offer next gen graphics early, even if less perfect than the competitors.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 06:43:20 2023 No.10087065 >>10083462 Dynasty Warriors 2, DOA2, Midnight Club, Tekken Tag Tournament, Unreal Tournament, TimeSplitters. solid games.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 13:30:08 2023 No.10087636 >>10086652 No bitch, you can literally see any chart that shows lifetime sales and see that NES was dominating the Genesis even when NES should have been regarded as obsolete.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 18:03:00 2023 No.10088162 >>10087636 That just goes to show how retarded and poor yanks and japs were. You could've been playing on Amiga, but you chose Famican't instead. Lmao....

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 18:58:12 2023 No.10088279 >>10088162 >It's the consumers fault they should only bought the products I simp for I keep forgetting I'm talking to solipsistic retards and not people worthy of discussion.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 19:55:31 2023 No.10088417 File: 1.79 MB, 2552x3507, february1997sales.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10087636 And for a few years, Maddens were selling better on the Genesis than the PSX, so what

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 22 20:09:40 2023 No.10088449 >>10087065 >Unreal Tournament Are you dumb? The SDC version is infinitely better, heck, the entire reason to get this title on console is so you can plug in your mouse and keyboard instead of paying hundreds more for a PC setup

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