/vr/ - Retro Games

GCN only had better framerates because the smaller disc meant less area for the laser to have to travel.

Xbox > GC > PS2

Even the psp was stronger than the PS2

>>9206196
>plays xbox game cartridges
The more I look at this picture, the worse it gets

>>9206196
>Based in Japan, which didn't
send soldiers to help topple
Saddam Hussein's evil regime
>send in till 2005
Are Microsoft this clueless?

>>9206196
double steal the second clash outclasses all gamecube games, the difference is generational. The first one is multiplat and the gamecube one looks worse than the PS2 version.

>>9206268
>Based in Japan, which didn't send soldiers to help topple Saddam Hussein's evil regime
>send in till 2005
Are Microsoft really this clueless? I won’t forget 2000 failed acquisition goes though.

Xbox was so strong it had games that could only be ran on it (Half Life 2 and Morrowind being the prime examples), it was as powerful as a Wii, if not more. GCN and PS2 depends on the games. Some ran better on the PS2, while some others ran better on the GCN. While some others, ran EVEN better on the Dreamcast, compared to these two.

But real answer is:
Xbox > GCN = PS2 > Dreamcast

PSP is on par with PS2 but it ran games at lower resolution and worse framerate most of the time.

>>9206289
>PSP is on par with PS2 but it ran games at lower resolution and worse framerate most of the time.
Like comparing WonderSawn to TG-16 or GBA to Genesis.

>>9206196
>xbox roms
DOSroms if he real.

>>9206196
Gamecube

Each had their strengths
Xbox is a Pentium 3 with a Geforce 3 but low amounts of extremely bandwidth limited memory. Sure that's a decent bit of processing power but the memory means games ended up more limited than a P3/G3 PC would even with Windows overhead.
Also the Xbox had no aces up its sleeve. No tricks or anything. If bruteforce couldn't get the job done then you were fucked.
Meanwhile the PS2 has the vector units letting devs do all sorts of effects for basically free. Also an awful memory system however the various chips means you could work around it.
And as for the Gamecube raw processing power really didn't matter. The awful controller with fewer buttons than the competition and the terrible disc format that only existed because Nintendo really fucking hates Sony took away so much potential that raw horsepower could never replace.

>>9206338
> free
>most games run below 30fps

OK

>>9206338
Few misconceptions here worth addressing, Xbox had the most useful memory of any console that generation. It also had a really good caching system. Shader support was the most advanced but PS2 could usually brute force it with the vector units and the obscene fillrate, and even do things beyond what the xbox was capable of. Nintendo could have easily used regular DVDs as they were already working with Philips, one of the companies which was part of the DVD consortium. They were already paying philips to make the discs so Sony could be sidestepped entirely. Just came down to nintendo autism as to why they avoided DVD.

The other problem with the Gamecube is while it can pump polygons and pixels quite well, it has fixed function shaders. This is fine for that little geometry ripple games like monkey ball and time splitters 2 did for the portals, but if it wasn't something the cube already had in its system, it had to be done in software. Lots of devs did fine with these shaders and they usually look really cool when they come up but it meant that the PS2, a significantly weaker system (on paper) was doing things that wouldn't be achieved until the following generation of consoles and if the cube attempted it, it would rape the framerate.

>>9206365
PSP had better effects than the PS2. in fact the ps2 sold so well that most games were developed primarily for it, nintendo and microsoft paid for exclusive rights to some games.

>>9206365
Give examples. All this jargon without examples is hard to see what you're talking about.

>>9206338
>Xbox is a Pentium 3 with a Geforce 3 but low amounts of extremely bandwidth limited memory. Sure that's a decent bit of processing power but the memory means games ended up more limited than a P3/G3 PC would even with Windows overhead.

The Pentium 3 is based on a lower Power Coppermind that was designed for laptops. But the Xbox PIII CPU has a few custom changes. The Xbox GPU is called the NV2a, which is based on the NV20 kelvin line of CPU's. It is like the NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti200, but has two vector shading units. Which makes the GPU closer to a Geforce 4 line. Also, Microsoft released Direct X 8.1 with the Xbox.

>>9207070
>Coppermine

>>9206196
>Big green "X" on unit
The Xbox doesn't have this, either.

>>9206365
The Gamecube, while it didn't have the brute force combo of the vectors and bandwidth or the shaders of the Xbox, did have the TEV which allowed it to do a lot of unique effects and mimic the pixel shaders that the Xbox did. The Gamecube also had the fixed function vertex unit on its GPU as well.

>>9206196
The Xbox was 100% more capable than the GameCube. And both consoles rock the ps2’s shit in almost every catagory

The Xbox and cube were pretty on par in terms of CPU capabilities, albeit very different types of processors. (GameCube was power PC and Xbox was intel)
The Xbox was significantly more capable graphics processing wise. notice how a large chunk of the library runs at 720p.

Xbox
https://youtu.be/t68hZJLztvc

>>9206289
>Xbox and ps2 powerful
>Have dogshit ports of dreamcast games
PS2 couldn't even run Shenmue

>>9206289
The Morrowind Xbox port is still so bizarre to me. It chugs like absolute shit and Todd Howard has gone on record and said that sometimes the long load times are a result of the Xbox having to reboot itself mid-game in order to keep up.
It's impressive as hell but I can't help but I do feel like they probably could've done more considering it was Bethesda who made it. However, I know very little about OG Xbox hardware so who knows

>>9207395
It's also glitchy as all hell. I recall several missions being impossible to complete due to spastic AI.

>>9206257
are you a fucking retard? Once information is already loaded into memory, the laser is irrelevant

>>9207481
>>9206257
This weren't the days of constant chunk streaming ffs it's not that SSD shit they talk about for the new ratchet and clank

>>9206196
Xbox and it isn't even a question. Not reading the rest of your gay post.

I often forget these systems came out around 9/11 and the invasions

>>9206289
Lots of 3D games on PSP are 20fps. But it's cool cus there's hacks/cheats for higher framerates for most

I've seen a lot of FUD against the Xbox, especially indirectly from some deluded Dreamcast zealots.

Still, there is no denying that it has some glaring bottlenecks. The games that do look good often have performance issues, while the other platforms's best looking games also tend to run at 60 FPS.

>>9206196
I’ll say GameCube was more powerful at what it did, the problem with the Xbox was that it was designed like a PC so it was less optimised

>>9207395
>I can't help but I do feel like they probably could've done more considering it was Bethesda who made it.
Bethesda were never that good at optimization on console as the tech side of things is not really their forte and their games seem built for mid range PC in mind most of the time...

>>9206196
gamecube period. How is this even a question, just look at the games

>>9206196
Xbox ... Is this some weird new bait? It isn't even debatable. Xbox was streets ahead

This is an Xbox launch game.

>>9206196
I think XBox generally had an edge but Gamecube had a slight advantage in certain scenarios, depending on the developer.

>>9207302
I didn't know there was a Splinter Cell soap opera

>>9207708
it's a shame those Xbox ones only run at 30fps

>>9207708
enthusia is really underrated and gran turismo overrated

>>9206338
>Xbox has no tricks up its sleeve

Proper shaders were a pretty big deal. It was also the only console with proper Dolby Digital 5.1 audio for games, though no one ever cares about audio :'(

>>9207704
IIRC this was the first published game to have a deferred rendering pipeline.

>>9206289
psp is more like a souped up ps1

>>9206196
The single example of a GC game being better than PS2 is RE4, and that's because it was tailor made to GC's hardware.

>>9206365
>>9206338
the interesting thing about the xbox is that its memory speed differs from unit to unit.
>Microsoft bought cheap RAM chips; they just took everything Samsung could give them to lower the price, even faulty ones, i.e. chips that will be unstable when clocked at the highest frequencies specified.
>The Xbox is supposed to find out the highest clock speed the RAM chips can go and run them at this frequency - this is the reason why some games don't run as smoothly on some Xboxes as on others. So the startup code in the secret ROM has to do a memory test, and if it fails, clock down the RAM, do another memory test, and if it fails again, clock down again, and so on, until the test succeeds or the RAM cannot be clocked down any further.

Do you guys consider the Dreamcast to be Fifth Generation, or Sixth? Personally I see it as a midway point, like 5.5th Generation, sorta like how the WiiU was a 7.5th Gen.

>>9208082
6th because generations are time measurements much like how the wii u is 8th generation

>>9206196
Almost all games on xbox are 480p and most are widescreen. 480p was rare as fuck on the ps2, and less so on the ngc. Widescreen was also really rare on ps2 and ngc.

Xbox had higher res, better audio and better framerate.
Xbox>NGC>PS2

>>9206257
retard>>9206257

>>9206257
Wait that's now how it works

Right?

>>9208082
Nintendo Switch is 9th gen. Nintendo is an entire generation ahead. Deal with it Sonygger.

>>9206289
>>9206294
>>9206382
>>9207583
>>9208017
Time to answer once and for all: IS THE PSP MORE POWERFUL THAN THE PS2?
TL;DR it depends, but I would say no. The PSP is similar to a PS2; some advantages, some disadvantages, and is most definitely not a souped up PS1.

>CPU breakdown
The PSP and PS2 CPU's both use the same MIPS III architecture, though the PSP's CPU is based on the older R4xxx, and the PS2's the R5xxx. However, both processors were redesigned by Sony, and the PS2 CPU seems stripped back enough to be more similar to an R4xxx.

Early in the PSP's life the CPU was limited to 266Mhz whereas the PS2 was clocked at 294-299Mhz (depending on model). Later on, developers were allowed to run their PSP games at 333Mhz, and although clock rates aren't everything, these CPU's are similar enough that clock rates can be meaningfully compared.

In fact, even at lower clocks, the PSP's CPU might be more useful since it has more RAM and a larger cache. Even at 266Mhz, there are a wide range of impressive emulators that absolutely humiliate anything the PS2 scene has put out, though I must concede that this is affected (I cannot say to what extent) by the ease of hacking a PSP + the fact there is more demand to play SNES on the go than on a PS2.

>CPU VERDICT:
PSP wins, but they are similar in the end.

continued...

>>9208380
As far as emulation is concerned, the extra ME CPU in the PSP offers a huge boost to performance in emulators which support asynchronous audio.

>>9208380
>VPU breakdown
Vector Processing Unit, a coprocessor that works for CPU and is pretty important for 3D maths especially since you don't have pixel shaders on the PS2. Most of the floating point performance on the PS2 is handled by its two VPU's: VPU0 and VPU1.

VPU0 was reused in the PSP, but VPU1 wasn't. VPU1 primarily communicated with the GPU, and in its place the the PSP's GPU has been given its own vector coprocessor. Furthermore, the PSP actually supports pixel shaders which really simplifies development; on PS2, developers had to offload software-rendered shaders to VPU1.
>VPU VERDICT:
Theoretically you could say it's a tie, but in practice PSP wins.

>GPU breakdown
This is the real meat of the comparison.
Even though the PSP GPU takes the same commands and a higher clock rate, it really is a lot weaker than the PS2's. It has half the fill rate, draws fewer polygons, has half the VRAM, and has an unbelievably slower bandwidth. Many PS2 ports to PSP thus run at lower framerates and/or are missing graphical features.

Admittedly, many PSP games (PS2 ports or not) like THUG2 and Peace Walker have framerate caps for the sake of battery life, and through cheats you can raise the frame limits on real hardware. In many other cases though, you get Star Wars Battlefront II.

The PSP does have one ace up the sleeve, if you can call it that: the PSP's screen resolution is so low that it doesn't suffer from the same Malthusian pressures as the PS2 which runs games at 480i. As a result, Soul Cailbur arguably looks better on the PSP, and Little Big Planet is a very faithful conversion of a PS3 game.

However, like I said, even at 272p lots of games had to be amputated and still ran worse.

>GPU VERDICT
Sometimes you effectively get a PS2 on the go; other times you very much don't. The GPU bottleneck on the PSP is so obvious that the PS2 wins here.

>>9208020
daily reminder that this cope image is sourced from an unconfirmed forum post from an anonymous user and no proof was ever provided

>>9206257
good post

>>9206257
It depends on the speed the data on the disk can be read into memory, not the seek time of the disk hardware. Despite having smaller disks the gamecube had the slowest load times
Gamecube 2 MB/s to 3.125 MB/s
PS2 3.6 MB/s
XBox 16 MB/s

>>9206196
Xbox>gamecube>ps2

You could have googled this

>>9208439
GC eschewed a lot of loading by having a significant chunk of RAM dedicated to caching data from the disc. Weird balance.

For what it's worth, Kratos' model in Chains of Olympus has 1/3rd fewer vertices than GoW1, and BBS' character models are half of KH2's. Texture sizes for both games are halved.

Which makes the PSP seem weaker, but not by an order of magnitude. However, character detail is the last thing you want to cut back on, so maybe the environment was simplified even more.

>>9208443
The had a similar amount of ram. The it's hard to tell with the Xbox because it was shared
Gamecube
24 MB system RAM 324 MHz, 3 MB video RAM 324 MHz,16 MB audio RAM 81 MHz
Playstation 2
32 MB system RAM 400 MHz, 4 MB video RAM (can also access system RAM) ? MHz
XBox
64 MB total RAM 200 MHz (shared video RAM)

>>9208491
Another thing to add for the Xbox is devs used the cache on the hard drive as even more RAM (IIRC Blinx did this to keep track of the time rewinding thing). I'm curious if any games receive any kind of noticeable boost in performance if you swap out the old hard drive with a more modern one with significantly more cache. They go to as high as 512 megs these days

>>9208020
That post is not from the lead programmer.

Xbox. Objectively.

>>9206330

>>9206196
Well the PS2 has the processing power of a nuclear submarine. So the choice is obvious.

>>9207395
As glitchy as it is, I still enjoy the Xbox port for some reason, even with OpenMW around.

>>9206289
my man, you're out of your mind if you think ps2 and gcn are equal. gcn was way more powerful.

>>9208497
The HDD cache is why technically impressive games on Xbox (Halo 2 and Ninja Gaiden Black in particular) have such long initial loading times. Once everything is written to the cache the loading times speed up immensely.

>>9208491
The thing about the GC's 16MB ARAM is that it's WAY slower than main RAM. Like 16x slower. It's more similar in function to the Xbox's HDD cache.

>>9206257

It's always humbling to see how many dopes who you yourself keep company with get caught by a genuinely funny troll post like this

This game sucks and Some games don't even play on xbox like painkiller.

>>9208401
Cope. If gc was so powerful why are there zero games that show it? I'm not saying good looking games don't exist on the system like wind waker but that's a very basic game that dreamcast could have pumped out.

>>9208497
it would be pointless since you can already run games directly from the hard drive on a softmodded xbox.

>>9206257

>>9209851
It doesn't just cache models and textures. To save on DVD ROM, many pre-baked shadow maps in games aren't actually baked on the disc but are fully rendered during loading where they are then cached onto the hard drive.

>>9209846
>Cope. If gc was so powerful why are there zero games that show it?

RE4

>>9206289
Yep came here to say this, imagine morrowind running on the PS2 or GC. Not a chance

>>9206257
also meant the disc could speed faster because there was less mass to accelerate

>>9209846
> but that's a very basic game that dreamcast could have pumped out.

Fact check on this post: Completely false.

>>9210868
Also:
Luigi’s Mansion
Rogue Squadron II
Wave Race Blue Storm
Star Fox Adventures
REmake/RE0
Metroid Prime/Echoes

Plenty of incredible looking GCN games.

>>9210872
Same reason I haven’t yet felt the need to upgrade from my Xbone X.

>>9206257
FPBP

>>9206338
>Also the Xbox had no aces up its sleeve. No tricks or anything. If bruteforce couldn't get the job done then you were fucked.
>Meanwhile the PS2 has the vector units letting devs do all sorts of effects for basically free.

No, that's the other way around. Xbox had programmable pixel and vertex shaders, it could do in hardware what the PS2 had to do by bruteforcing the framebuffer via the vector units.

Gamecube took a fully programmable architecture and reduced it to only be able to do a few effects in hardware cause devs complained about it being too complex. But, what it could do, it could do as fast as the Xbox. Only difference was that the CPU was a different arch, and some things were impossible to code on it fast enough (while some things you could do on it easy, but then couldn't get it done fast enough on the Xbox).

>>9206459
>Give examples. All this jargon without examples is hard to see what you're talking about.

One of the devs of the Burnout games confirmed all of that a while ago, I think it was in the ps2/gcn/xbox thread on sega-16.

>>9210928
That guy is not a developer.

>>9209846
i didn't say anything about the gcn's power, i said the statement in that image is unsourced and from an anonymous user. it proves nothing except that you're a gullible console warring retard

>>9207489
>This weren't the days of constant chunk streaming ffs

Constant chunk streaming has been a thing in pretty much all generations. Streets of Rage 2 on the Megadrive has some parts where the game freezes for like 2 frames while new enemy sprites are loaded, it happens at least once on the first stage (when the "GO" flashes right after you beat the nigger jumping from the manhole) and a few times on the stage 7 elevator (even changes the background color). Crash Bandicoot loaded level chunks nonstop from the CD, so much that it exceeded the rating of the drive, but they kept it hush hush because they needed a killer app. Halo on Xbox has short loading periods mid-level which is also a form of streaming levels in chunks.

>>9207704
And this is an Xbox 360 launch game. Your point is?

>>9210945
Sneak King came out a year after the 360 launch in November 2006.

>>9206196
Xbox and Gamecube lost, maybe Xbox was bigger in the west and Smash and Halo became influential franchises. But companies prioritized ps2, ps2 games had multiple versions and graphics were better despite ps2 struggled to maintain stable performance

>>9210964
Fact check on this post: PS2 graphics were largely not better.

>>9210934
>That guy is not a developer.

According to https://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/burnout-3-takedown/details, Burnout 3 had the following programmers:
Iain Brown Programmer
Ciaran Rooney Lead Programmer
Richard Thomassen Programmer
Tom Williamson Programmer
David Harvey Programmer
Alex Fry Lead Programmer
Dominic Parrott Lead Programmer
Hamish Young Lead Programmer
Olly Read Lead Programmer
Iain Angus Programmer
Tony Clark Programmer
Rob Cowsill Programmer
Ryan Dayle Programmer
Stephen Lucas Programmer
Adam Sawkins Programmer
Matthew Webster Executive Producer
Paul Ross Lead Programmer

now I didn't check all of them one by one, but it is conceivable that any one of them later moved to Germany for some reason. I know that some devs moved from UK to US back and forth due to jobs.

>>9210971
Games developed primarily for the PS2 had more effects but they ran at a lower resolution. Ports were worse on the other consoles that performed better overall

>>9210975
The guy says he works for Nintendo with zero proof or evidence to support it. 100% LARP.

>>9210945
>>9210956
Sneak King should have been out at launch. If it was, it would have been a jewel on XBoxes crown.

>>9210939
>I didn't say anything about the gc's power
Of course because there would be nothing to say.

>>9210895
I never said gc didn't have nice looking games just you never saw games Ike Burnout 3 or Chaos Theory because it clearly wasn't capable.

>>9211154
another non-response

>>9210945
Actually Sneak King was just an OG Xbox game running under backwards compatibility.

>>9210942
Halo and Crash are the exceptions to the rule

>>9210975
None of them worked for Nintendo

>>9206257
kek

>>9208005
Didn't PS2 have Dolby 5.1 if you used the optical port?

>>9213569
Only for DVDs and cutscenes in a few games, but that's it. Some games did support Dolby ProLogic II, but you could get that with regular RCA cables as well.

Xbox og emulators have crazy input lag. Stuff like coinops and finalburn xxx. I wonder if thats due to the nVidia chipset in part. Nvidia hardware always seems to lag like shit.

>>9213569
>>9213610

True. I remember back in 2001 and being amazed with MGS2 scenes being in Dolby 5.1 on my nice Denon/Polk setup. Shit was cash.

Every ninja gaiden and DOA player will say otherwise

>>9206196
It's ironic that this is literally what makes XBox so comparatively strong in the US. Mutts are the only people on the planet thinking that "Made in USA" is a seal of quality.

>>9211162
>games Ike Burnout 3 or Chaos Theory because it clearly wasn't capable
It wasn't capable of similar but much worse-looking games than F-Zero and RE:4? Why wasn't RE:4 on the Xbox and why did it look like shit on PS2? The PS2 and Xbox clearly weren't capable

>>9206196
Ps2 prob has the best games then Xbox then GameCube

But if you need to play every good game then just buy them all

>>9206257

>>9216206
Subjective opinions on aesthetic value aside ,F-Zero GX is a less technically demanding game than Burnout 3. Vehicle models are static and don't have much detail, there's basically no shader or audio processing effects, and the collision detection and physics are comparatively simplistic.