/vr/ - Retro Games

I think we’ve been over this reasonably comprehensively

>>8508928
i'd get it if they sold at least 5 mln consoles. 1.8 mln is absurdly low.

>>8508927
>but how did it manage to sell THAT little

It lacked classic IPs, no Sonic no Streets of Rage no Phantasy Star no proper Golden Axe brawler, no Toejam & Earl.
whether or not you like those games, it shows that Sega did not understand that they could have tricked a lot of people into subconsciously wanting to re-experience their original Genesis/MD.

The human is simple, I got drawn to Sega because of Sonic, if they had made an commercial that pretty much said "SONIC 4, ON SATURN!" my brain would have been like "yessss master."
Shoulda been half classic experience and half daytona arcade experience.

>>8508928
very much so, yet this thread will get 9000 posts with people going into great detail about sales figures.

>>8508927
We've had this thread millions of times. All it will degenerate into is a couple hipsters or weebs lying to themselves about it and blaming Bernie Stolar despite him not being at the company until the console had already been dead for 2 years.
So just as nitpick, it didn't even sell close to 2M. Serial numbers prove there were at most 6ish million Saturn's ever made period, and 5.2ish of them sold in Japan.
Literally no one had a Saturn, most didn't know it even existed. It had no games, it appealed to no one, even it's supposed huge Japanese fanbase is a myth, they bought it for Virtua Fighter and ignored it otherwise. It's games had terrible attach rates. The Dreamcast was seen as the Genesis successor for most because of how huge of a disaster the Saturn was

>>8508927
Who knows. I admit, it's highly low, my guess is previous reasons combined with the fact that there weren't many exclusives anyone gave a shit about

>>8508941
so, 800,000 in the rest of the world?

>>8508947
give or take. I'd say 1m rest of the world just to be on the safe side. probably 4-500k NA then a combination of everywhere else

>>8508927
>how did one thing sell more than another thing
More people bought one thing than another thing. It's literally that simple.

>>8508939
>It lacked classic IPs,

What it lacked was marketing and availability. They had extremely small stock at any point, the commercials were a joke, and most stores refused to stock the Saturn after the early launch (they got no units for the launch, so they thought Sega was playing favourites with other stores, and as a revenge they stopped carrying Sega stuff altogether).
Even here on /vr/, people admitted that they've never even seen the Saturn until the Internet. They thought Sega disappeared from the market for 3-4 years until the Dreamcast.

If they could've built more units, they would've sold more units. Except that then their losses also would've been far larger because the Saturn was too expensive to make. They lost over $100 on every unit sold, and they couldn't afford it. Which is why they did not build enough units to sell in the first place.

>>8508941
>even it's supposed huge Japanese fanbase is a myth, they bought it for Virtua Fighter and ignored it otherwise.

Just because you keep saying this in every thread won't make it true.

lol
lmao

Games sucked, dude.

They were directly competing with themselves with the 32x released months apart from the saturn and completely shattered consumer confidence. I had a Sega cd but taking the next step with Sega was to leap off a cliff. You pick up a game magazine and they were explaining the overlap but it just confused most consumers.

Every 32x sale was a lost saturn sale. It was a massive stumble in the west.

>>8509010
>Even here on /vr/, people admitted that they've never even seen the Saturn until the Internet.

Those must have been 5 years old then, I live in a little Dutch suburb and I knew of the Saturn because I'd buy GamePro and EGM and read it in Highschool with classmates.
But I will admit that I remember the Playstation pretty much pushing the Saturn out of my local toystore, it just sold way better so the Saturn was pushed into a little corner.
still makes me sad, I remember being like.. what, 14 years old and talking about how I was gonna support the Saturn because the Mega Drive had treated me so well.
then.. they just never released anything that made me wanna get one, unlike the Mega Drive with Sonic 1.

>>8508927
7800 was a good console. It was cheaper than NES and had full backward compatibility with 2600. A lot more worth getting than sharturn

>>8509060
The Saturn has 2 games that broke 1m sold and they're both VF

>>8509070
If you bought gaming mags then you were already in the hard-core gamer minority.
Most people weren't. They went into best buy and looked at whatever was on the kiosk or on the shelf, or looked at McDonalds promotions, or TV game shows or MTV etc. The Saturn was not there, so as far as the majority of the populace was concerned, it did not exist.

>>8509070
What about sonic r

>>8509076
>The Saturn has 2 games that broke 1m sold and they're both VF
Yeah and it had 4 that broke 500k that weren't VF.
And 15 others that broke 300k that weren't VF.
And 50 others that broke 100k that weren't VF.

What you are saying is like Playstation sold no games other than FF7 because FF7 sold the most.

I didn't know the Saturn was sold in the US until 2005 or so. I heard about it in the 90s, but assumed it was Japan-only, because I never saw it anywhere.

>>8509082
Saturns were in kiosks through 96.

Sega CD
32x
Multiple revisions of the megadrive
, All caused poor consumer confidence ... Anecdotally I remember choosing a PS1 because of how quickly Sega abandoned the 32x- I just didn't believe they would support their system.

Early launch
With no sonic
Underperforming 3d visuals because they thought amerifats still wanted 2d (Sega turned down the N64 hardware before Nintendo took it)
Priced 100 more than Sony

In every possible way Sega of America fucked up

Saturn deserved better, I still eventually bought one and loved every second of it.
Even with their fuck ups Sega gave classics

>>8509092
PS and N64 had lots of >1M sales games though. And a lot more >300k sales as well.

>>8509092
The N64 sold less than the Saturn in Japan and had 5+ games break 1m with some over 2. The Saturns attach rate was terrible, by your own admission 6 games in it's entire library eclipsed 500k sold. People bought it for VF and then ignored it the rest of its life. You will not change facts because they upset you.

>be 12 years old in 1997
>fucking love Sonic The Hedgehog (the platformers), Streets of Rage, and lots of other Genesis titles
>Sega puts out the Saturn which has none of my beloved games
>PSX has everything the Saturn has that I would want (racers, 3D fighters) and more (mascot platformers, sportsball/wrestling games, licensed TV/movie games). Also better graphics
It was a no brainer for me. Sega let us down from 1995-1999. Now the Dreamcast, she was all that and a bag of chips.

>>8508927
Sega of America adamantly hated the Saturn. They only released it and sold it in the US because they were forced to. It basically played out like this:

~1992:
>Japan: We're working on this new system called Saturn. We're looking at using a new 32-bit RISC CPU with some 3D Capabilities and hoping for a 1994/1995 release.
>US: NOOOO! Genesis still good! Why not just beef it up a little?
>Japan: We need a new system, Mega Drive is bombing here and showing it's age.
>US: What if we use a 68020 so we can still do Genesis stuff?
>Japan: You serious? That's horribly underpowered. No.

~1993:
>Japan: We just saw PS1's specs. We've decided to make Saturn a dual CPU system to beef it up. We're aiming for a late 1994 launch. Can you guys be ready to launch in 1995?
>US: Noooo! Genesis still good!
>Japan: We've been over this, we need a new system.
>US: "Ok how about this thing from SGI?"
>Japan: WTF?! This is way too expensive at the moment and we're already at the point of making devkits, preproduction hardware, made agreements with Hitachi, Yamaha, etc. for chips. We can't change directions at this point.
>US: Waaaaah! We like Genesis and don't want to sell $500 Saturn!
>Japan: We don't think it will be $500, we can try and get the price down for you by 1995...
>US: Waaaaah!

1994:
>Japan: Ok, you keep whining about the Genesis still being ok and just needs a little more power. What if we give you a new Genesis for 1994 that does more colors?
>US: Can we make it an add-on and add the same CPUs as the Saturn?
>Japan: Weren't you complaining that you didn't want to deal with this new RISC CPU? Whatever fine. We trust you guys know the US market better. So we'll do Saturn in Japan and you guys can have 32X to sell for cheaper for a few years until the market is ready for something like Saturn.
>US: Yay! We got our own system to make and sell. It's going to be great and so much better! Let's focus entirely on it and ignore Saturn! What could go wrong?

Because the Sega Shiturn was a mistake. Everything Sega'd learnt to beat Nintendo the previous generation with the Mega Drive was thrown out the door when they decided to make the Shiturn (over-engineered yet underpowered hardware that costs way too much to manufacture, is a headache to develop for, and worst of all, has no games compared to the competition). Is it any wonder that it got its ass kicked by the PSX and N64?

>>8509092
>Yeah and it had 4 that broke 500k that weren't VF.
>And 15 others that broke 300k that weren't VF.
>And 50 others that broke 100k that weren't VF.
that's not a "huge fanbase". it's smaller than PCE even. SFC had over 50 titles that sold over 300k.
not only that, it's clear that while N64 had sold about same number of consoles in Japan, people bought far more N64 games than Saturn ones. see picrelated, list with sales comparison (each number is 10,000 units).

>>8509113
>PS and N64 had lots of >1M sales games though.
N64 had a user base of 40+ million and PS had 100+ million. A 1 million seller there is 1/40th or 1/100th the user base. A 1 million seller on Saturn means every sixth owner bought a copy.

>>8509115
You are saying that people bought VF2 and nothing else, but that's not true. A 500k seller meant that one in twelve owners bought a game, which is a far larger attach rate than a million seller on a PS1.
Saturn game sales were fine, the problem was that the console was sold in stupid low quantities so it naturally could not grow game sales beyond a certain point. If you want to besmirch the Saturns reputation it would be simpler if you just stuck to bernieposting.

>>8509107
>Sega cd
>Multiple revisions of the megadrive

"Nobody" bought cd because it was too pricey
MD revisions wasn't ever a concern to anyone until the internet pointed out the shit sound 10 years after the fact

Everything else is correct

>>8509121

Retard

>>8509121
Genesis still had gas left in the tank 1994/95

>>8509136
1:12 is an absolutely abysmal attach rate, and if you're talking worldwide numbers than almost 20 N64 games sold over 1m, with 10+ selling over 3m.

Japanese attach rate of 16.71 games per console- highest of the generation

Kikes in this thread (who might be Bernie stolar himself) lie alot on here

Saturn dominated Japan until 1997- fact
Saturn wasn't a virtua fighter only system. That was Nintendo and its first party games (still the case )
Sakura wars was a huge success and that sneaky Jew stopped a us release.
Grandia, dead or alive, alpha 3


Stolar that sneaky Jew rat mandated that the us Saturn couldn't have it's jrpgs, then fucked over the Sega arrangement with working designs ( who went to psx)

Or to put it simply, if Hitler had been in charge of Sega in 1994, the Saturn would have won.

Even with kikes turning Sega into a new Palestine, the Saturn was the vanguard of a import revolution with people hearing about the amazing Saturn games in Japan

>>8509136
>N64 had a user base of 40+ million and PS had 100+ million. A 1 million seller there is 1/40th or 1/100th the user base. A 1 million seller on Saturn means every sixth owner bought a copy.
You know the meme about "the list goes on"? The reason why every N64 fanboy played the same games is because there were so many top selling titles that basically everybody had. You can minimize that all you want and say it was 1/40th of the install base for a single game but every N64 owner would have had multiple >1m games. Mario, Banjo, OoT, the list goes on, so they actually ended up with a more committed install base and there was a lot of overlap between buyers of those titles.

>>8509121
Cont.

Late 1994:
>32X bombs badly.
>Third Party devs aren't having it and want to work on the Saturn instead.

1995:
>32X still bombing.
>Devs dropping support and want to do Saturn stuff.
>Japan: WTF?! We let you do exactly what you wanted. We trusted you. Some of our own devs are pissed now because we moved their Saturn projects to 32X for you. How are you going to fix this?
>US: We'll do a combo unit called the Neptune.
>Japan:...
>US: we could launch the saturn...
>Japan: Launch the Saturn.
>US: But we don't have any of the libraries or documentation translated! Or any US Focused games in development!
>Japan: And who's fault is that?
>US: But it's $400!
>Japan: We're working on consolidating it down and can probably have it down to $350-$300 by September. But you need to mitigate the damage of this 32X stuff as soon as possible.
>US: Ok we'll launch in May at one retailer for $400.
>Japan: ...

Late 1995:
>US Saturn launch is a failure due to little software
>US: Hey we added a HDD and a Modem to the Saturn, can we sell this and call it the Pluto?
>Japan: WHAT IN THE EVERLOVING FUCK?! You are not allowed to design hardware anymore. Sell the Saturn and shut up.
>US: Can we make sonic?
>Japan: If it will make you shut up and sell the Saturn, sure.

>>8509137
>that's not a "huge fanbase".
Nobody said it was a huge fanbase, just that the game sales were respectable given the user base, and that people didn't just buy it for two games and nothing else.

>SFC had over 50 titles that sold over 300k.
SFC had 8 times more user base.

>it's clear that while N64 had sold about same number of consoles in Japan, people bought far more N64 games than Saturn ones.
N64 was on the market for almost twice as long.
Also those games were on carts, so their profit margins were significantly lower.

>>8509152
>1:12 is an absolutely abysmal attach rate, and if you're talking worldwide numbers than almost 20 N64 games sold over 1m, with 10+ selling over 3m.

A 1 million seller N64 game would have an attach rate of 1:40. Sounds worse to me than 1:12.

>>8508939
yep, same arguments, same charts, same thread

>>8509174
Based

>>8509161
OK, so because the N64 had more 1m sellers, that means the Saturn sold no games at all (except Virtua Fighter). Gotcha.

>>8509160
Imagine thinking Sakura Wars or Grandia would sell more than 10k copies at most in America in 1998.

>>8509136
>You are saying that people bought VF2 and nothing else, but that's not true. A 500k seller meant that one in twelve owners bought a game, which is a far larger attach rate than a million seller on a PS1.
see >>8509137 - N64 had 10 games that sold over 1 million units in Japan. So we're looking at attach rates from 1:5 to 1:2.5 here.
by comparison, the 2nd biggest selling game for Saturn in Japan managed 598k copies, which was just a bit over 1:10 attach rate. and 300k games were no more half of that.

>>8509148
It's a pretty accurate, though comically exaggerated, take on what actually happened when you combine interviews from both US and Japanese employees and Sega and connect the dots. It basically comes from info from Sega of America employee interviews, the Hideki Sato Interviews, various interviews and company statements from the era. This post sums it up pretty well:

https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-console-wars-book.40082/#post-981237

>>8509179
No that wasn't my argument at all. My argument was that the install base was more committed on the N64 and PSX. Sure it's impressive that Saturn had some high selling games, but the 1:40 argument for N64 assumes that people bought only one top selling game and didn't buy any others. The point is other consoles had more options for reaching chart topping sells.

>>8509165
>>US: Hey we added a HDD and a Modem to the Saturn, can we sell this and call it the Pluto?

Pluto was Japanese designed. There were dev discs found for it, which were japanese.
Japan also designed a karaoke console that had a modem, hdd, a Roland synth, and a Denon amplifier all hooked up to a Saturn. The Pluto was more likely a simplification or a home version of that, since Sega has been very into the Karaoke business, even the Mega CD had a karaoke accessory.

>>8509172
>SFC had 8 times more user base.
no it didn't. 17.17 mln SFCs vs 5.8mln Saturns. that's 3 times difference, not 8 times. I'm counting Japan only, obviously.
>N64 was on the market for almost twice as long.
Saturn in Japan: 1994-2000
N64 in Japan: 1996-2002
same number of consoles too, your point doesn't explain much.
>Also those games were on carts, so their profit margins were significantly lower.
thats not the point though.

>>8509193
Pluto came from Sega of America. The few prototypes that actually have boards and work all seem to point back to Sega of America. One prototype was basically thrown in the trash by Sega of America in the late 90s, the other appears to be one that was sent to Japan by Sega of America for evaluation. Apparently that one was found with a Japanese note from a Sega higher up that effectively translated to "What the fuck is this?!"

It appears to have been made sometime in late 1995, early 1996.

N64 sold 30 million

20 million in the us was it's only success

>>8509181
Imagine thinking ff7 would sell well when ff6 flopped in America

>>8509160
>Japanese attach rate of 16.71 games per console- highest of the generation
that claim sounds like complete BS. they claim Saturn sold 29.69mln games whereas N64 only sold 4.80mln which is just nonsense. this contradicts actual sales data hard, at the end of its life cycle just the top 3 N64 games alone sold over 4.80mln units.

>>8509238
Even if you doubled what Sony spend on marketing FF7 the sales for Sakura Wars would be abysmal.

>>8509239
According to Sega's FY98 report, they had sold ~8.8 Million Saturn's by that point and 80 million games worldwide. That would give it a worldwide attach rate of about 9:1. Considering how bad it flopped everywhere but Japan, I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese attach rate was much higher.

>>8509192
>the 1:40 argument for N64 assumes that people bought only one top selling game and didn't buy any others.
And yet that's exactly what you are implying for the Saturn, even though we have numbers that say that the owners bought plenty of other titles over the years. But it's pointless to argue this because you'll just repeat your own point ad infinitum.

>>8509201
>Saturn in Japan: 1994-2000
In 1994 it was on sale for a little over 1 month, and by 1998 they only released a few ten thousand consoles that were mostly built in 1997 based on the IC dates. They were just getting rid of whatever hardware stock they still had, as well as rolling out as fast as possible whatever software was still in development (House of the Dead and Touring Car were infamous for being released in a rushed, incomplete, poor quality state). The only games released after 1998 were third party titles.
So that's less than 4 years for the Saturn.
N64 was meanwhile fully supported from mid 1996 to mid 2001, and then discontinued in 2002. I'm not familiar as to how many consoles were produced at that time.

>thats not the point though.
which generates more money, 1 million sold carts with $1 profit, or 500k sold CDs with $5 profit? This is a really fucking important point for any company releasing consumer products.

>>8509208
>Pluto came from Sega of America. The few prototypes that actually have boards and work all seem to point back to Sega of America.
We have no official word from wherever they came from. There's one prototype board (that was made in japan and have japanese markings on the inside), and one or two dev discs also written in japanese. The second Pluto was just a shell/resin model, iirc.

>One prototype was basically thrown in the trash by Sega of America in the late 90s, the other appears to be one that was sent to Japan by Sega of America for evaluation.
Or possibly sent from Japan to USA for evaluation. We have no word on either.

>Apparently that one was found with a Japanese note from a Sega higher up that effectively translated to "What the fuck is this?!"
Ah yes, a note in japanese, found in a console that was made in japan, that sure sounds like an american product.

>>8509246
no it wasn't, get with the program, the only game sold in japan was virtua fighter.

>>8509160
schizo hands typed this post
>Saturn dominated Japan until 1997
"dominated" is a strong word. it got an early lead in 1994 but that was it. then it went head to head with PS. in 1997, PS overtook and N64 entered the market too.
>Sakura wars was a huge success
it was only big by Saturn standards in Japan. no way it'd sell much in US. people give Stolar shit because they think all RPGs would sell like FFVII. the truth is that to this day FF is the only JRPG series that sold big in US. theres no other JRPG in top 50 sellers for PS in US. no one except for a small niche of weebs actually cared about Grandia and the rest.

>>8508927
People normally have a main console and, if they have the means, a secondary console. There's no fucking way you are going to choose Panzer Dragoon over Mario and Cloud. That doesn't mean the Saturn sucked, but there is no such thing as third place in this market.

To be honest, I have no idea how it beat Nintendo in Japan.

>>8509160
>Or to put it simply, if Hitler had been in charge of Sega in 1994, the Saturn would have won.
top kek

>>8509260
There's three prototypes in total. 2 With working boards, 1 that's just a clay model. The most finished one is the one that was found in the US. The one from Sega of Japan is the earlier prototype with the infamous note on it. Both working prototypes have a US Bios and are region locked to only play US games. They also only have the US Logo on them, not the Japanese logo.

>Ah yes, a note in Japanese, found in a console that was made in japan, that sure sounds like an American product.
The note is rather derogatory and comes off more as a "WTF is this thing the Americans sent us?!" kind of note.

>>8508939
>It lacked classic IPs
Imagine saying this in the gen where the PlayStation came out of nowhere and dominated with mostly new or lesser IPs.

>>8509084
That came about three years too late, I only had money for one console and that became a PSX which I bought in early 1995.

But even then, I didn't want a racing game. I wanted Mario 64 but with Sonic.

>>8508927
>but how did it manage to sell THAT little in US?

>>8509118
This, PSX was just a much better bang for your buck.

>>8509268
That chart does show Saturn holding it's own pretty well through out 1996. 1997 is where things fall off. The big thing that happened in Japan there was Final Fantasy VII came out on PS1, and I think Dragon Quest VII was announced to have moved to the PS1 as well in 1997. In Japan typically whatever console gets those two franchises dominates, and we see Saturn fall off around there and PS1 take off.

That said, the table is clearly incomplete as Saturn was still being sold in Japan in 1998 and 1999, even if production had slowed and stopped around the end of 1998.

>>8509273
Promise of Dragon Quest 7 and other JRPGs, not to mention a crap ton of games.

Which retro console of 1990's would be the ideal one for me?
> I hate pokemon
> i hate the legend of zelda
> I hate RPG's
> anti-nintendo console

>>8509092
The problem was all the best selling saturn games were bundled or free games.
>1995: VF standard bundle
>1995 Christmas coupon: retailes like Kmart and EB gave away copy of of panzer dragoon with system purchase (not official bundle but still free)
>1996: the free VF2/daytona/virtual cop disc
>199x: nights bundle
That is 6 of your top 10 best sellers that were bundled give aways. Sony outsold saturn with just a demo disc of that fucking cube game, and it's games sold under their own merit.

>>8509402
Forgot pic.

>>8509397
I'd need to know what you like, not what you hate.
I have similar dislikes but I don't know if you like action, platformers, fightan, and racing games like me.

>>8509397
Sega Genesis and gets some sports games, now fuck off.

>>8509407
I don't like fighting games.

i hate anything that looks like pokemon

I like arcade style games (example: metal slug)

easy games

direct games

race games

sports

>>8509397
pc engine

>>8509421
Why would theTurboGrafx-16 be my ideal 1990's retro console?

>>8509420
Neo Geo, Sega Genesis, and PSX (was gonna give this answer regardless because its library appeals to everyone).

>>8509454
And what about the sega saturn?

>>8509412
and in addition to sports games
What other games for Sega Genesis would you recommend?

>>8509420

>>8509420
What are "direct" games?

>>8509325
Saturn was a flop outside Japan even before he got hired in '96. Tired of people blaming Bernie when the blame should be on Kalinske for instigating a 32X vs. Saturn war and for botching Saturn's launch in America.

>>8509481
Both should share it. Kalinske for fucking it up before it launched, Stolar for making a bad situation even worse leading to a massive hemorrhage with the Dreamcast that killed the company.

>>8509512
There was no saving the fuck-up that was the Saturn. Stolar made the right call to kill it and move on to the next system, the far superior Dreamcast.
>but localizing <insert shitty weeb jrpg or shitty sprite game when 3D was all the rage at the time> would've saved it in America!!
lol, no

>>8509537
Killing it and having absolutely no source of income for 2.5 years only to then sell your next console at such a huge loss that no amount of software sales can make it back probably wasn't the best strategy though. That's the side of the blame Stolar holds.

Kalinske shoulders the blame of not being on board with the Saturn at all and completely fucking up it's US launch to such a degree that it was set up to fail and couldn't recover. If Sega of America had been on board from the beginning (~1992), worked with Sega of Japan to get devkits, tools, manuals, etc. translated and ready so third party devs outside of Japan could have them as soon as possible, they could have had a much better launch around 1995 with a lot more software that was better aimed at the US market. What redeeming games there are on the 32X could have been released as more polished Saturn launch titles. That better launch along with no 32X would probably make Saturn do a lot better than it did.

Despite all it's own failings, the Saturn was also a victim of circumstance. The transition from the 16 bit to 32 bit eras was the rockiest generation leaps in the history of gaming. The next gen saw several false starts and the SNES and Genesis were both deeply entrenched and still going strong. Even the PS1 wasn't lighting up the sales charts when it first launched. Look at how many brands line the top banner of Game Informer from 1995. It was a free for all. Things didn't really settle until around 1996 when games like Crash Bandicoot and Tomb Raider really drove a widespread adoption of the new machines and by then the Saturn was already behind in a number of key areas compared to PS1 and the N64 was both delayed and, for a time, impossible to find.

>>8509323
>Final Fantasy
>Metal Gear
>Dragon Quest
>Chrono Cross
>Saga
Playstation was a success because it jacked most of Nintendo's former exclusives

>>8509650
Chrono Cross came out in 2000. Shit was settled by then.

>>8509468
Sonic 1 and 2, Streets of Rage 1 and 2 (and translation for Japanese Bare Knuckle III) Ecco The Dolphin 1 and 2, RiStar, NBA Jam, NBA Jam T.E. Golden Axe 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) Street Fighter II with World Warrior+ hack applied, Mortal Kombat 1 with Arcade Edition romhack applied, Rock & Roll Racing, Wonderboy in Monsterworld, Road Rash 123, Toejam & Earl 1, Castle of Illusion, World of Illusion, Quackshot, Jurassic Park, Mega Bomberman, Columns, Desert Strike, Jungle Strike, Urban Strike, Addams Family, Ghostbusters, Robocop Vs Terminator (dont forget the gore cheat)
that should get you through the winter, I suggest an Everdrive or spend thousands just getting these on cart.

>>8509537
Pretty sure X-Men vs. Street Fighter could have saved the Saturn a bit. It was a popular arcade game based on a popular comic book and the PS port was rubbish.

>>8509092
FF7 didn't sell the most though, that would be Gran Turismo. Sony also had over 100 titles sell over 1mm units. It's not even close

>>8509661
My point still stands. Sony had recognizable IPs from beloved franchises, Sega had faggy clown flying games

>Be Sega
>Hey everybody, its me ya boi Seeeeeeeega!
>Creator of such classic franchises as Golden Axe and Streets of Rage!
>So, here's Bug. buy it you cretins.

>>8509690
Bug is what you get when the US Branch is desperately trying to get anything running on the system out the door when their pet project (32X) blows up in their face and they have to change course quickly.

>>8509674
psx outsold the saturn 20 to 1. Did you fucking fail your math class? Of course it's not even close. Saturn was a fucking failure and anyone telling it otherwise is just trying to cope because he spent $2000 on two games for the system.

One thing I've always noticed about shiturn hipsters is how blatantly apparent it is that they very obviously only pretend to like it for contrarianism, and don't even play games.
Anytime any other console or old pc or arcade game is mentioned people will always talk about how they had fun playing it as a kid, or how they would always stay over at friends houses playing certain games, or how they'd stop in at the local arcade to drop quarters in whatever. They'll always have distinct memories and nostalgia of having fun with whatever they're talking about.
But all you'll ever hear from shiturn fags are how it actually had the most vertrex cycles of any console at the time assuming you properly utilized both CPUs and GPUs and did a rain dance under a full moon, or how the shading of a lamp post in the background of a capcom fighter was actually arcade perfect quality unlike the ps1 where its gamma tint was microscopically off. Never do you hear about how you and friends stayed up all night playing saturn games.
It's like the console was complete dogshit and they're all just a bunch of friendless shut in weebs who bought a 25 year old piece of plastic to try to be cool and now spend all their time validating their waste of money to themselves as they play alpha 3 for the 47th time and get KOd by the CPU on stage 2 as they repeatedly struggle to do a qcf to throw a fireball, before waddling over to the $4500 pc their mother bought them, (that they use only to play steam ports of PS3 era JRPGs) and extolling the virtues of whichever japan only release they most recently heard a youtuber talk about and then going on a forum begging for it to be translated so they can actually play it long enough to take a picture of it to post on reddit.

>>8509690
To be fair that was the time when you could sell poor as shit gameplay by using CGI sprites, and no one had any idea whatsoever how a 3d platformer would work. Bug! was a decent attempt when you consider all that, and it's not a bad game, just a bit boring.

>>8509725
TL;DR

>>8509725
Please tell us more about how the Sega Saturn personally slighted you.

>>8509725
Sad but true.

>>8509248
>And yet that's exactly what you are implying for the Saturn, even though we have numbers that say that the owners bought plenty of other titles over the years. But it's pointless to argue this because you'll just repeat your own point ad infinitum.
Dude I don't even know who you think you're responding to. I wasn't the one that said it only had virtua fighter. Of course they bought more than one game, I'm only saying that the other consoles had a larger amount of >1m games. You attempted to dismiss this point by saying that 1m on other consoles represents a smaller share of the install base because of the larger amounts of units, and I countered this by saying that they most likely bought more than one top charting game which evens out the install base when you consider that the average user probably had about 8 games, half of which were ptobably chart toppers. That wasn't an attempt at diminishing the Saturn's library (although the chart toppers was smaller, not adding any value judgements there though), it was just an attempt at adding nuance to the N64 numbers. If I had to guess the top Saturn games (in the US) off the top of my head I'd probably guess Daytona, Nights, virtua fighter, house of the dead, and sonic r. They're not all >1m games but they are chart toppers.

>>8508927
I too watch Lady Decade fellow Reddit bro

>>8508927
>sales figures
God damn, you zoomer fuck, for the last fucking time: NOBODY GAVE A SHIT ABOUT SALES FIGURES.
>overpriced
>limited library
>library mostly shit
>garbage distribution network
>sega already burned their goodwill with last couple rounds of console bullshitery

>>8509830
The highest selling US Saturn game was Madden 97 and it sold 70k copies.

>>8509882
>Lady Decade
Not sure what's the appeal of that butterfaced goblina.

>>8509068
Based 3DO arsonist

>>8509068
>Every 32x sale was a lost saturn sale.
That was like 12 people though. The 32X was a stumbling block, sure, but I think it's effect on the Saturn is way overstated.

>>8509121
In reality it was Japanese middle managers seething that Sega of America was the one bringing in all the cash while the Genesis/Megadrive was lagging in Japan. At one point Sega actually had 55% of the US market share and was beating Nintendo.

Sega of Japan ignored the situation in America and decided to make the Saturn a Japan-centric abomination. All they had to do was ride out the Sega Genesis until 1995 (hell, the SNES kept going until 1996), cancel the 32x, then release a cheap Saturn with Genesis backwards compatibility (Saturn had the Genesis CPU and a cartridge slot, yet they never went for it...).

>>8509998
What was Japan-centric about the Saturn?

>>8510019
It was a 2D system designed to play JRPGs and Sakura Wars. In the mid-90s, when the rest of the world was going 3D.

>>8509074
It was better than nes in many ways but apart from Sculptured software, no many good devs pushed it.

>>8509010
My impression was that early on ps1 and saturn were given equal share in the stores. When N64 came out they had to make room, the N64 fell way short of expectations so the stores then went with half ps1 with n64, gameboy and pc off to the side.

Saturn was a highly desirable system at the start.

>>8509919
Beats me. If you're gonna simp a #gamergirl at least pick one with milk-white skin and big udders.

>>8509690
The studio behind Bug was hired to make a Sonic game for Saturn but Sega of Japan vetoed that almost immediately. They still had a contract with Sega of America to make a game but they had to come with their own IP.

>>8510019
Sega defended the convoluted 2D-influenced architecture of the Saturn by saying that it was what their arcade teams wanted back in Japan. The arcade industry was solid in Japan, but was heavily declining in America. By 1997 global arcade revenue would be cut in half compared to what it was in 1994.

Basically you had Americans who loved the Genesis and loved Sonic, and Japanese who hated the Mega Drive and loved arcade games. The Saturn was designed for Sega of Japan to try and win back their domestic audience while ignoring the success of their foreign division.

The Genesis sold 19 million in the US and 3.5 million in Japan. Meanwhile the Saturn sold 2 million in the US and 6 million in Japan.

Great job Sega of Japan, mission accomplished!

>>8509070
Im 37 years old. I have never seen a sega saturn in real life.

>>8509965
>That was like 12 people though
600,000 in US that first year
>Behind the scenes, Nakayama wanted us to sell a million units in the US in the first year. Kalinske and I said we could only sell 600,000. We shook hands on a compromise - 800,000. At the end of the year we had managed to shift 600,000 as estimated, so ended up with 200,000 units in our warehouse, which we had to sell to retailers at a steep discount to get rid of the inventory."
Even 600k more saturns sold wouldnt have saved it, but it was the loss in consumer confidence once people knew they were tricked. For many die hard sega fans who took the risk with the 32x it became the last sega product they ever bought.

>>8509998
>Japan was seething at Sega of America!
>Japan ignored America!
That's a bullshit lie that fell apart when actual interviews from people who actually designed the Saturn in Japan came out. Sega of Japan kept Sega of America 100% in the loop about the Saturn every step of the way and were willing to take ideas from Sega of America. The problem was Sega of America was unwilling to move on from the Genesis even though it eventually had to happen. As a result their early ideas were laughably stupid (a 68020 based system as opposed to the 32-bit RISC system Sega of Japan was thinking up.), or way too late in the game (The SGI system after Saturn's design was mostly finalized and going into production).

>All Japan had to do was cancel the 32X!
32X was Sega of America's pet project. They were complaining about Saturn and wanted to make their own system so Sega of Japan let them. It failed.

>Make Saturn compatible with Genesis! It has a 68k and a cart slot!
There's more to the Genesis than that. You need the sound chip, the VDP and the other bits of hardware. Sure you could have possibly added it in, but it would have made the system a hell of a lot more complex. A simple adapter that had the Genesis hardware in it probably would have worked better.

But, the real problem here is that Sega of America refused to get on board with the Saturn. Had they been on board from the Start, they could have possibly worked to get better software and tools ready for launch, and possibly explore a way to make an adapter to play Genesis games. But they thought they knew better and would sell millions of 32X consoles.

>>8510145
link interviews?

>>8510153
There's the Hideki Sato interviews you can look up for yourself that detail the Saturn's design and creation from early on in 1992 to a few months after it's Japanese launch in 1994. It brings up Sega of America wanting to do a 68020 based system, choosing the SH-2 CPU, the "last minute addition" being the 2nd SH-2 in fall of 1993, etc.

There's the interview with Scott Bayless from years ago that details the 32X conception in early 1994 with Sega of Japan bringing up doing a beefed up Genesis for Sega of America and it becoming the Add-on and using the same SH-2s as the Saturn, proving Sega of America knew of the Saturn at this point and that the Saturn had it's dual SH-2s by this point.

Then there's Hayao Nakayama's company addresses from the era that detail the market plans. There's one from January after the 32X meeting that goes into detail for the overall plan. It shows Nakayama having trust in Kalinske about the price of next gen hardware being too high and a lower cost system selling better int he west:
https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/sega-president-hayao-nakayamas-new-year-speech-1994/

There's also various interviews from Tom Kalinske over the years that detail his distaste for the Saturn, thinking it was way too expensive, refusing to get on board with it and wasting time on various different ideas (SGI based system, a joint venture with Sony, etc.). He's also on record saying that no one will buy a Saturn or PS1 but instead will buy a 32X. He basically shit on the Saturn to promote the 32X before it came out. You can easily go look these up for yourself.

>>8510220
Cont.
From those various interviews we can start to paint the actual picture. That picture is basically this:

>Sega of Japan needed a new system, the Mega Drive wasn't selling in Japan. They design the Saturn.
>Sega of America wanted to keep going with the Genesis and didn't want to sell an expensive new system.
>Nakayama trusted Kalinske and Kalinske was able to convince him that going for a low cost power up for the Genesis was going to sell better than the Saturn and PS1 in the West.
>Sega of America goes all in on the 32X thinking it was going to do great and people won't pay $300 or more for a Saturn or PS1.

Basically Sega of America guessed wrong, underestimated the demand of the PS1 and Saturn in the west from both gamers and developers, and convinced Sega of Japan to go along with them. The result was catastrophic.

>>8509919
She made a video about the Saturn that was published like a hour before this thread was made.

>>8510220
I don't think investigating an SGI based system could be called "wasting time on various different ideas" considering that's exactly what Nintendo ended up using.

>>8508927
Sega Saturn just sucked op. You weren't alive, just deal with it

>>8510249
>But Nintendo used the SGI System!
And the Nintendo 64 was severely delayed as a result. Nintendo fans claim "Nintendo knew to wait and that the SNES could still hold it's own!" when the reality is that was the excuse they came up with to deal with the constant delays from SGI. The N64 was originally supposed to come out in 1995, around the same time as the US PS1 and Saturn. But it didn't come out until late 1996 due to dealys.

Kalinske was making this deal in mid to late 1993, when Saturn's design was mostly finalized, dev kits were being made and developers were starting to make games for it. Sega of Japan needed a new system to compete with the PS1 in November of 1994. Changing gears and going with a completely different hardware design wasn't feasible at that point.

>>8510224
the 32X outsold the Saturn when they were both on market
>32X was Sega of America's pet project. They were complaining about Saturn and wanted to make their own system so Sega of Japan let them. It failed
this is also total bullshit. the 32X was forced on them when they were already preparing for the Saturn, because the japs were shitting themselves over the Jaguar. Faced with no option they decided to market it as a "budget Saturn"
The entire narrative no one knew about an upcoming Sega console and the 32X was sold as the future to consumers is total dogshit.

>>8510256
>Changing gears and going with a completely different hardware design wasn't feasible at that point.
Yep. much better to go with a badly designed, underpowered, console that can't even properly run the arcade ports it was designed around. with the added bonus that manufacturing it puts you in so much debt you almost go out of business.
really showed those Americans how to run a business

>>8510259
>the 32X outsold the Saturn when they were both on market.
And Sega of America's complete fuck up of the Saturn's launch and confusing consumers had nothing to do with that? If 32X didn't exist Saturn would have sold far better in the west.
>Bullshit! 32X was forced on them by Sega of Japan because of the Jaguar!
No, that's the lie part of that story. We know this from recently translated transcripts of interviews and statements from Sega of Japan employees what actually happened. The entire idea of Sega of Japan forcing the 32X on Sega of America due to fears of the Atari Jaguar depends entirely on Sega of America not being able to assure them that it wasn't a threat. Yet from this exact transcript from Sega of Japan's president at the time says other wise:
https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/sega-president-hayao-nakayamas-new-year-speech-1994/

In that interview he clearly states that Sega of America convinced him the new systems like the 3DO and upcoming Sony systems were too expensive and weren't selling and that they knew the market better. If they could convince that the 3DO and PS1 weren't a threat, you think they couldn't convince him about the Jaguar? That part of the story doesn't hold water from this evidence.

Now, with that transcript and Kalinske's own words from the era saying the 32X was a better deal, was going to sell better, and that Saturn, 3DO, PS1, etc. were too expensive, the scenario that they wanted a lower budget system to sell instead of the Saturn starts to be a lot more believable.

They wanted a cheaper system to sell that would keep the Genesis going, and they convinced Nakayama that it was a better idea for the west.

>>8510220
>There's also various interviews from Tom Kalinske over the years that detail his distaste for the Saturn, thinking it was way too expensive, refusing to get on board with it and wasting time on various different ideas (SGI based system, a joint venture with Sony, etc.). He's also on record saying that no one will buy a Saturn or PS1 but instead will buy a 32X. He basically shit on the Saturn to promote the 32X before it came out. You can easily go look these up for yourself.
You mean the interview he did with Next Generation magazine during the beginning of 1995? I'm glad that interview exists because it shows how much of a tool Kalinske really was instead of the white savior who knew more than the actual people running the company that the Console Wars book makes him out to be.
https://imgur.com/gallery/xp0Vw

>>8510269
Saturn's design isn't nearly as bad or underpowered as people like to claim. Part of the problem is that Sega's resources were split between it and the 32X with Sega of America focusing on Western based software for it and Sega of Japan moving some games that were to be Saturn titles over to it to help them out. Had that not happened, they could have launched with more games that were more polished and better aimed at the western market. Which that could have also made the Saturn look more competitive in general.

And again, Sega of Japan needed a new system to sell against the PS1 in 1994. The Mega Drive wasn't doing it for them, and as we can see from history, the PS1 took the world by storm. Relying on the Genesis and Sega CD until late 1996 wasn't going to cut it, and would instead lose them a lot of third party developers, especially in Japan.

>>8510278
Your rebuttal is literally your own head canon, as opposed to numerous accounts from multiple different people who actually worked at the company at the time.
>And Sega of America's complete fuck up of the Saturn's launch
also forced on them by the japs.
is Nakayama your grandpa or something? why do you such an obsession with the retarded Japanese branch of a company who has literally never made money or done anything but fail miserably and repeatedly without outside influence?

>>8509537
There was no saving the Saturn yeah, but Stolar made it so much worse with a far more limited game selection. Plus, saying "The Saturn is not our future" before the Dreamcast was even out, reportedly making unpopular moves while he was unpopular at Sega, it was like he wanted all vidya companies to fail.

>>8510290
>It's your head cannon!
No, it's what we can put together when we look at more than just old interviews from disgurntled Sega of America employees who want to just point the blame at Sega of Japan. Certain parts of the stories don't hold water when you factor in interviews and statements from the era, as well as recent interviews from Sega of Japan developers.

>The surprise launch was forced on them by Sega of Japan!
Only because the 32X was a complete disaster and Nakayama made the call to try and bury the 32X quickly and not let the confusion and embarrassment go on any longer. Was it the best idea? No. It too was a mistake, but there were plenty of other mistakes that led to it. And the big one is Sega of America refusing to be on board with the Saturn form it's inception.

>>8510287
No one cares about Japan. Japan is an irrelevant little island. Genesis multiplats were outselling all other versions all the way through 1997. The highest selling consumer electronic in 1995 was a Genesis. There was no need to rush production on the Saturn, especially in its horrible state. Also please please make up your schizo mind on whether the 32X was all America's fault and they made it and forced it, or if the Saturn was poorly designed because they had to make the 32X.

>>8510305
>reading a single fan translated press release 16 years after it was made is more reliable than literally hundreds of people who all just coincidentally happen to have the exact same story because they all secretly hate japs or something I dunno
>the Saturn launch was actually America's fault because the 32X
no seriously why are you like this? did you get molested by someone in a Nights outfit or something?

>>8510307
>No one cares about Japan!
I think the Japanese company cares about Japan.

>Genesis sold the most in 1995!
Only in the US. Worldwide the Genesis sold about 2.6 Million systems in 1995. PS1 sold 3.1 Million in 1995. Saturn sold 2.1 million in 1995 despite the 32X mess and the botched launch. I'd imagine if they didn't have the 32X mess and a botched launch they could have sold more.
https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Fourth_generation_of_video_games#North_America
https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Fifth_generation_of_video_games

>Genesis multi-plats sold more!
But I'd be willing to bet overall more PS1 games were being sold worldwide.

>Make up your mind
I never said Saturn was so poorly designed and they had to make the 32X. I said Sega of America wouldn't get on board with the Saturn simply due to price. They wanted a cheaper system to keep the Genesis going. They convinced Nakayama they knew better and they were allowed to make the 32X to sell instead of the Saturn.

>>8510312
>That's just one article! We have hundreds of people who have a different story!
No, you have Kalinske and a few slighted Sega of America employees who give a story in hindsight that doesn't add up with other recent interviews from Japan, interviews from Japan in the 90s, or their own words from the 90s.

>>8510334
>I think the Japanese company cares about Japan.
How'd that go?
>Only in the US.
right. only in the country that made them all their money, and the only one they were ever successful in

>>8510339
>The US Made them all their money!
How well did that go for them when the rest of the world moved on to the PS1 and they were sitting their with the Genesis and 32X? The point is that whatever success was still there for the Genesis in the US in 1995 and 1996, wasn't enough to offset what the PS1 was doing worldwide in that same time frame. What does it matter if the Genesis sells 2.6 million units in 1995 in the US if the PS1 is selling almost the same amount while also outselling it dramatically in all other territories?

Because only rich families could afford it. It came out at a stupid time.
All the normal middle class families waited for the n64.
Sega released saturn and Dreamcast at really dumb times. Both got passed up shortly by consoles with better graphics. The timing was off on their releases and the technology they chose. They wanted to be first but they end up being last.

>>8510349
>How well did that go for them when the rest of the world moved on to the PS1 and they were sitting their with the Genesis and 32X?
fine because they outsold it. up to the point where the SGI console they wanted to make would have been out. you're really bad at this

>>8510350
>Only rich families could afford it.
By the time the original planned fall 1995 launch came around, they had the price matching the PS1. Sega was able to price match the PS1 going forward and in many cases beat them to certain price points. The Saturn being an expensive $400 console only holds water from May of 95 to October of 1995.

>>8510357
They only outsold it in one territory and only by about 700k. In 1996 they sold 1.3 million Genesis systems while the PS1 sold 6.6 million systems and Saturn sold 4 million systems. The situation you'd have instead would be declining Genesis sales in the US and even worse in Europe, and no sales in Japan while Sony is selling systems and games hand over fist worldwide. And that's not even factoring in the Saturn actually having a pretty high software attach rate and CD's being cheaper to publish than cartridges, resulting in more overall profit even if overall sales aren't as high.

Finally, we have no idea if the SGI system shown to Sega is 100% identical to what was shown to Nintendo. Nintendo went back and forth with SGI to rework that chipset to get it to their needs.

Sega should have let the US division run things after the success of the Genesis. They went from being losers in Japan to losers everywhere.

Modern Sony must have learned from the Sega fiasco since they ended up moving PlayStation headquarters from Japan to the US after the PS3 fuck up.

>>8510395
If the Sega version of the SGI system sold half the what the N64 did it would have outold the Saturn over 10:1.
>Saturn sold 4 million systems
And lost so much money doing that the company almost went bankrupt.

>>8510413
>Sega should have let the US division run things after the success of the Genesis.
That gave us the 32X.

>>8510420
>During the Winter Consumer Electronics Show in January 1994, Sega of America research and development head Joe Miller took a phone call in his Las Vegas hotel suite from Sega president Hayao Nakayama, in which Nakayama stressed the importance of coming up with a quick response to the Atari Jaguar. Included on this call were Bayless, Sega hardware team head Hideki Sato, and Sega of America vice president of technology Marty Franz. One potential idea for this came from a concept from the Japanese team. This concept, later known as "Project Jupiter and referred to by former Sega of America producer Michael Latham as "Genesis 2" was an entirely new independent console. Project Jupiter was initially slated to be a new version of the Genesis, with an upgraded color palette and a lower cost than the upcoming Saturn, as well as with some limited 3D capabilities thanks to integration of ideas from the development of the Sega Virtua Processor chip. Miller pushed for a different strategy — according to Latham, Miller dismissed Project Jupiter as "just a horrible idea. If all you're going to do is enhance the system, you should make it an add-on. If it's a new system with legitimate new software, great. But if the only thing it does is double the colors...." Miller said his idea was to leverage the existing Genesis as a way to keep from alienating Sega customers, who would otherwise be required to discard their Genesis systems entirely to play 32-bit games, and to control the cost of the new system in the form of an add-on. From these discussions, Project Jupiter was discontinued and the new add-on, codenamed "Project Mars", was advanced

>>8510417
>If the Sega version of the SGI system sold half the what the N64 did it would have outold the Saturn over 10:1
Do you honestly think that SGI system would have been any cheaper? The only reason the N64 price was affordable was because of Nintendo delaying it and cutting costs on the hardware as much as possible by going with Carts instead of CDs, limiting memory, etc. Sega wasn't going to do that because they wanted to go with CDs from the get go.

You have no idea if that system would have actually sold more or would have been any better as we don't know what state it was in when Sega was shown it.

>And lost so much money doing that the company almost went bankrupt.
You're a few years too early for that. That was because of selling the Dreamcast at a such a massive loss that no amount of hardware sales could make up for it.

The only reason the Saturn was expensive to produce early on was because it was a mess of boards inside. That was resolved by mid 1995 with the later Model 1s and pretty much a non-issue by 1996 with the Model 2. Had Sega of America not dropped the ball so hard in the US, the system could have probably been selling well enough with enough software sales to make up the difference.

>>8510456
>You're a few years too early for that. That was because of selling the Dreamcast at a such a massive loss that no amount of hardware sales could make up for it.
Oh lmao you're the same retard who keeps trying to force this in every Sega thread. I should have know there weren't 2 autistic retards obsessed with the Saturn for god knows what reason.
Run away now like every other thread when I post this.

>>8510420
My understanding is that Sega Japan got spooked by the Jaguar (lol) and was developing the Sega Jupiter (beefed up 32-bit Mega Drive) to counter it while they finished up the Sega Saturn. Sega USA convinced them that it made more sense to sell it as an add-on since it would be cheaper and the console itself was essentially a beefed up Genesis.

Basically a bad idea morphed into a slightly less bad idea. There should never have been anything between the Genesis and the Saturn since the Genesis was still doing fine.

>>8510430
>Nakayama stressed the importance of coming up with a quick response to the Atari Jaguar.
And this is where you know the story is BS. Again, from this statement Nakayama clearly stated with confidence he had been assured that these new expensive systems like the 3DO, upcoming PS1, etc. weren't a threat by his American counterparts:
https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/sega-president-hayao-nakayamas-new-year-speech-1994/

If they were able to convince him 3DO and PS1 weren't a threat, I'm sure they could convince him the Jaguar wasn't a threat either.

> Project Jupiter was initially slated to be a new version of the Genesis
This also isn't accurate. Project Jupiter was a Saturn without a CD-ROM drive. It was killed quickly. This was mentioned in some of the recent Hideki Sato interviews.

There's a lot of details like this that aren't right in this story and it just doesn't add up with other interviews. It comes from an old interview from over a decade ago before we had insight from the Japanese side. Take it with a massive grain of salt.

>>8510473
>Look at these losses!
I'd imagine they wouldn't be as bad if the entire consumer operating income wasn't resting solely on Japan. Again, had Sega of America not dropped the ball so hard with 32X and then botching the Saturn's launch, things could have been different.
>Run away now like every other thread when I post this.
You're the idiot who keeps posting a graph that clearly shows a complete nosedive at the US Dreamcast launch due to it being sold at a massive loss while trying to claim it doesn't show that.

Sure Saturn wasn't great for profits due to it's failure in the West, but Dreamcast is when things just get stupid in the West. They dropped the price by $100 in less than year going into it's launch forcing Japan to follow suit, then when they're not making up the difference in software sales and the PS2 is on the horizon they decide to keep cutting the prices to the point where they were literally giving the console away for free with a $200 rebate. It created a hemorrhage from which they couldn't return. Blame the Saturn all you want, but this was what finally did killed Sega as a console manufacturer.

>>8510493
Again, the Jaguar argument doesn't hold up since Nakayama stated in an address in January of 1994 that his US division had given him confidence that new expensive systems like the 3DO and PS1 weren't going to be a threat. So if he's saying that in January (most likely after this fabled meeting about the 32X), I'm sure they were able to convince him the Jaguar wasn't a threat either.

It's more likely that the 32X came more from Sega of America convincing him that new expensive systems in general weren't going to sell, including the Saturn, and that a cheaper budget system like the 32X was the better way to go. So Japan suggested a Genesis with more colors, Sega of America countered with an add-on that used the Saturn's dual SH-2s.

>>8510557
Sounds like head canon

>>8510631
>Head Cannon!
No, it's simply looking at both sides of the story and from both recent interviews and interviews from the period and coming to a conclusion that fits the evidence.

The story that you choose to cling to is just one very biased and outdated side of the story that has no input from Japan and doesn't add up with actual evidence from the time.

US games sucked ass, no one wanted to play janky 3D arcade ports. Most people including myself were still perfectly happy playing the genesis in 1995 let alone 1997.

In retrospect there are a bunch of great games and shmups that were mostly released in Japan but like 99% couldn’t give a fuck at the time.

>>8510665
I love the Saturn as much as the next autist, but if anything the Japanese side is more liable to make shit up to save face

>>8510145
>32X was Sega of America's pet project.
no it wasn't. it was forced on them when nakayama saw the atari fucking jaguar at a trade show and panicked, insisting that sega needed to respond right away.

>>8510673
>Most people including myself were still perfectly happy playing the genesis in 1995 let alone 1997.

>Total Worldwide Genesis Sales from 1995-1997: 4.8 Million
>Total Worldwide PS1 sales from 1995-1997: 27.9 Million
>Total worldwide Saturn sales from 1995-1997: 8 Million.

Yeah the numbers don't back that up. In 2 years Sony sold almost as many PS1's as Sega sold Genesis systems in almost 10 years. Hell even Saturn sold double the amount of Genesis systems in that time frame with it's horrible performance outside of Japan.

>>8510684
> Japanese side is more liable to make shit up to save face
There is that possibility, but the insight from the Japanese side seems much less bitter and more plain and honest in tone. It also aligns more with statements from Kalinske and Nakayama from the time period.

>>8510687
>Muh Jaguar.
Again, see >>8510557, >>8510513 and https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/sega-president-hayao-nakayamas-new-year-speech-1994/

If Sega of America was able to convince him the 3DO and upcoming PS1 weren't a thread, there's no reason they couldn't do the same for the Jaguar. That detail doesn't add up with the other interviews and evidence.

>>8508927
As your data shows, it was doomed from the start due to various marketing and strategic failures. The hardware and games on the console were totally irrelevant to its overall fortune.

>>8510694
why would you buy a new genesis when you already own one?

>>8510694
Dumbass he was talking about people who already owned genesis but didn't upgrade

>>8510704
>Last October, I started to get some slight headaches with all the reports of major consumer electronics companies such as Matsushita and Sony entering the game console market. As president, I was already feeling a lot of pressure with Sega being forced to revise its expected results downward and with the worsening global economic situation, and on top of that, the 3DO was released before Christmas in America and Sony announced they were releasing their console at the same time as us. However, after going to America and learning more about the situation, I’m feeling more confident. One reason for that is the realization that Sega knows games better than any of them. Many people are saying that the 3DO isn’t selling well because its games are no good. However, I think there’s more to it than that. Specifically, a machine at that level of performance with a $700 price tag is just not competitive.
Nothing about the PS1 is mentioned, and he says its his own opinion that price is the main factor despite others claims that its the lack of good software. Absolutely nothing but your own autistic mind making shit up so that you can believe what you what to hear is happening in this entire article. and half the shit in it directly counterdicts what other bullshit you're trying to push, like SoA not knowing the Saturn was in development, and forcing the 32X.
You have a legitimate fucking mental disorder and for some reason have focused it entirely on a failed console from almost 30 years ago, and the success of the American branch of a video game company. I truly hope you kill yourself so you stop shitting up all these Sega threads with your made up head canon bullshit for hundreds of posts every single time.

>>8509998
>Saturn had the Genesis CPU and a cartridge slot
Why do retards keep repeating this line. The 68000 was in hundreds of different machines. That did not even remotely allow one to run software written for the other. The 68000 is a tiny piece of the entire system, having a 68000 is like trying to bake a cake with only the flour.

Sega blew their wad with Lockheed Martin.
Sega System 2 is what the Saturn should have been, albeit toned down for affordability. Toss in capable 2D hardware and they could have mopped the floor up. Too complicated, too early.

>>8511026
I don't know why they didn't do this. The Genesis was in effect a scaled down System 16 and that ultimately worked out well. Sega, primarily an arcade company at heart, got to bring their arcade games home relatively intact. Had the Saturn been a scaled down Model 2 they could have continued that formula.

>>8510960
I suspect what happened with the Saturn was similar to what happened with the SNES. Thoughts of backwards compatibility were on the table in the earliest part of the engineering phase but the architecture started dramatically deviating and so the feature was dropped pretty early. Wouldn't surprise me if the Saturn had a similar...wait for it...genesis.

>>8510256
>Sega of Japan needed a new system to compete with the PS1 in November of 1994.
Why? That's not me being cheeky. What was the reason Sega had to be in such a rush? The only thing I can think of is that they needed a way to get their white hot Virtua Fighter in people's homes ASAP and the 32X wasn't a sufficient platform for what ideally would be a genuine next gen system seller. But other than that it seems like the weird obsession with trying to stay one step ahead in terms of timing did more harm than good. Its true you didn't want a long stretch of time with absolutely nothing on the table (even Nintendo released the Virtual Boy as a stop gap to cover for the N64 delay) but that's what the 32X was perfectly positioned to do. Sega had exactly zero reasons to put itself in a foot race against Sony. The market wasn't even fully ready to make the next gen leap at the time.

>>8511074
Even so, the presence of the 68000 is not really good evidence of that. It was a very popular cpu at that time. Also, since any such genesis bc was dropped very early they could have easily swapped out the sound cpu to something more desirable. The fact that they used the 68k means it was probably cheap and available and off sufficient performance.

You couldn't even buy it in stores. It wasn't stocked.

>>8509614
>Kalinske shoulders the blame of not being on board with the Saturn at all and completely fucking up it's US launch to such a degree that it was set up to fail and couldn't recover.
can someone give a quick rundown on how he fucked it up?

>>8510295
>There was no saving the Saturn yeah, but Stolar made it so much worse with a far more limited game selection.
please name me those alleged big games that didnt get released in US that would've saved Saturn. I've looked at the best selling Saturn games in Japan. Ones that didn't get released in US mostly fall into the following:
a) visual novel / eroge (tokimeki memorial, elf games)
b) anime games (evangelion, gundam, tangentially super robot taisen)
c) jrpgs with little appeal to the West like SMT, Tengai Makyo, and some that might have sold some copies but were never big even on PS (eg Grandia or Lunar that are projected to have sold roughly 100k and 200k on PS in US, respectively)
d) bunch of 2D fighters that, again, really lost their momentum on 5th gen
Stolar was right. What sold in Japan was weeb games, JRPGs didn't sell well in US, and FF games were an exception from the rule. Closest that other games to it were other Square games like KH, Legend of Dragoon and Chrono Cross. Xenosaga ep.I was the 12th best selling JRPG in the west and it only sold 500k.

>>8511061
>The Genesis was in effect a scaled down System 16 and that ultimately worked out well.

Not in Japan. Imagine working at the console division, while the arcade fucks are flaunting their popular Daytonas, their Viruta Cops, their Virtua Fighters, and you're stuck with your proverbial dick in hand, and the fucking Americans who buy your console because it's got, like, American Football games developed by Americans. And, supposedly, it's a huge success over there, which, for some reason, has not translated into a raise or increase in pay.

Imagine then Yu Fucking Suzuki entering your office and saying "Oh, we're just doing Model 2 for our next home console. Make sure it's cheap but good". I'd fucking quit on the spot.

>>8511136
The PlayStation was a juggernaut. Sega already lost a lot of 3rd party support by that point. Trying to convince people to work for you when there's a cheaper and more popular kid on the block had already been hard for them as it was. Like, how many people remember that Tomb Raider was a Saturn exclusive for half a year? Imagine trying to convince EA and Activision to develop something for your console when they've already built a solid relationship with Sony and all the popular sports licenses are with Sony.

By that point you're pretty much fucked unless you provide the customer with stellar first-party output. That's pretty much the course Nintendo had to take with the N64.

>>8510080
That's not how you spell vagina

>>8509121
This. Fags don't realise Sega of America deserves the brunt of the blame for Sega's disunity & downfall, because they watched a couple YouTube videos & read that faggotass Console Wars rag of a tabloid.

>>8509882
>>8510229
What are you talking about, how is she related to the Saturn?

>>8509882
>>8510229
OP here, I don't watch any youtubers and its the first time I hear about that channel. I was just trying to recall how much Saturn sold in US, I thought it was 3M-something, but then I checked and I couldn't believe it was just 1.8M.

>>8510473
hold up, doesn't this show a huge loss after the DC launch? Stolarbros… were we wrong all along??

>>8508927
>price BTFO by PlayStation
>specs BTFO by N64
>no mainline Sonic, Phantasy Star, Toejam & Earl, Streets of Rage (supposedly Fighting Force was pitched as a Saturn exclusive SoR4 but Bernie rejected it, was a very average game anyway), etc.
>no one in the West gave much of a shit about Virtua Fighter compared to Tekken and Mortal Kombat
>32X cannibalized sales and fractured Sega's fanbase

>>8510960
>>8511074
People keep parroting this because they have zero ideas on how the hardware works. There's absolutely zero clues pointing to the Saturn ever being planned with backwards compatibility in mind. It can't even do all video modes of the Megadrive, and the 68k is a different version as well (it's a cost reduced version). And if they planned on it being compatible, it would've been called Mark VI or something.

>>8509076
Sega Rally

>>8511385
>>There was no saving the Saturn yeah, but Stolar made it so much worse with a far more limited game selection.
>please name me those alleged big games that didnt get released in US that would've saved Saturn.

are you retarded lol, he said it wouldn't have saved the saturn

>>8509397
Genesis

>>8511758
There's at least history at play. Considering every machine they made had BC, even the Game Gear, its irrational to think it was never brought up during the Saturn's conception.

>>8508927
Based Howard Lincoln was probably the best guesser there

>>8512190
>even the Game Gear
It did?

>>8509092
is this supposed to prove your point? both the N64 and PS1 most sold games were far more balanced

>>8511487
>The PlayStation was a juggernaut.
Not immediately. It had a solid launch and people/publishers were interested but it wasn't a done deal yet. Nintendo was somewhat hurt by an excessive delay. 1996 was very late. But there was no reason 1995 wasn't a suitable target for Sega. The "gotta be out in 1994 come hell or high water" was based on pure panic rather than any calculated industry analysis.

>>8512230
Also, remember that the 32X actually had some real interest before it was cannibalized by Saturn and quickly finished off. Konami was developing a Castlevania for it. Had Sega let it breathe a bit and used that window as a holdover for the Saturn there may not have been a mass abandonment of the 32X.

>>8512250
I have no idea what such a game would have looked like - the 32x hardware was pretty poor for 2D games.

>>8509172
>A 1 million seller N64 game would have an attach rate of 1:40. Sounds worse to me than 1:12.
Are you legit retarded? You can go 30-50 deep on sales charts and find million sellers on every other console, because people were actually buying games for them and not just picking them up to play 1 thing. Crash would sell millions along with Madden, Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo, Twisted Metal, Spyro, Driver, whatever the fuck else. If anyone was actually routinely buying Saturn software you wouldn't have 6 games massively frontloaded, with nothing else selling more than 1-200k at the very most.
Japs bought a Saturn to play Virtua Fighter, they might get 1-2 other exclusive games for it over it's entire life span. Everyone else ignored it entirely. No one in any part of the world was using it as a main console, no one was giving it a successful market anywhere, and the huge losses Sega took manufacturing it required both those things to be true if they even wanted to break even.
The Saturn is not some cherished and beloved weeb system you people think it is. It was nothing more than Virtua Fighter home edition.

While diehard Sega fans can cite a hundred classics, to most casual gamers in the 1990s, the Sega Genesis was a hit for two reasons only: Sonic and Sports. It was a much more casual-oriented audience and when Generation 5 rolled around, most of them either migrated to Sony (which did an excellent job with sports games) and Nintendo (whose N64 was receiving massive amounts of hype). Sega did manage to turn things around a little with Dreamcast, thanks to Sonic Adventure and NFL/NBA 2K, but by that point it was too little, too late.

I'm not sure why there always has to be a debate on "Why Sega Failed." It's just about the only thing about Sega anybody wants to talk about anymore. But this is like debating whether Edgar Allen Poe or Hemmingway should have quit drinking and eaten more vegetables.

>>8512260
Was it really? Kolibri looked impressive.

>>8512336
2D 32x games leaned heavily on the capabilities of the Genesis itself. The 32x itself usually only drew a few sprites on top, often with transformations like scaling. Without any hardware acceleration, it can't manage much more. Kolibri I suspect worked out well because the simpler gameplay left more CPU time.

The 32X probably could have been a solid source of good arcade conversions where the 16bit systems were inadequate. It probably would have been capable of very good CPS2 games for example. Even arcade accurate beat-em-ups that either didnt get home ports, like the Simpsons, or very different ports, like TMNT and Turtles in Time.

>>8512213
It could play Master System games with an adapter

>>8508927
I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if at least one or two of the following changes to the Saturn's hardware had been made during development:
>Move the 2nd Hitachi SH-2 to a different bus
>rework VDP-1 to be less clunky
>Make the dedicated custom sound processor be able to Compress sound samples out of the Box.
>add 8-12 Kilobytes to the RAM

>>8511614
It also shows a huge return at the start of the DC, something that the Saturn could never achieve. Perhaps if the Saturn's failure hadn't scared most developers away to Playstation 1/2, the DC would've kept its momentum...

Because pic related:
Even in Japan, where the Saturn even sold more than the N64, you can see the most bought were ports of arcade games like rally, VF, Daytona, and then fighters megamix, puyo puyo, Sakura Wars and Super Robot Taisen. Pretty pathetic when your most recognizable games are just arcade ports. Terrible attach rate, poor library (especially outside Japan), and hard to develop for, while being more expensive and (quite often) some of the worst 3D graphics of the three.

>>8512615
Excuse me Saturn has the best Sega game of al time in Sonic R

>>8508927
lack of scotformers

>>8512396
I don't think the hardware was that much of a problem as far as support went. I guess you could say it hurt adoption a bit because it was expensive and the number of components made it hard to get the price down but the idea that Saturn was hard to program for and that scared people off seems overblown. There were actually a lot of cross platform games at the start.

>>8512624
The Saturn version isn't even the best version. There's an annoying glitch in all regions that discards your chaos emeralds if you collect them in the same round as all the gold medals because the boss race bypasses the emerald screen and it doesn't save unless you see that screen. Also the time attack challenges like the balloons are ridiculously easy in the original version while they were made more challenging (read: fun) in the PC version. And the controls are objectively smoother in the rereleases. But the Saturn has some cool color pallets and transparencies I guess.

The game is fun but I can understand why it was underwhelming when it was just on the Saturn

>>8512260
Unfortunately there isn't much known about it but word is that the project eventually evolved into SOTN. There's actually a guy demaking SOTN for the Genesis and it looks incredibly good so that's at least some idea of what the 32X game could have been.

https://youtu.be/wCWWwL21Nd0

>>8509121
Imagine people in this day still lay all the blame the American branch. M8, the Saturn was shit. Even in it's home territory it was shit. For most people who bought it, it was a home version of VF/Daytona/Sega Rally. It was made overpriced, unnecessarily difficult to develop for, and even SEGAs first party offerings were lacking compared to the Mega Drive. A lot of the blame also goes to the Japan division.
They're the ones who made the hardware, they're the ones who told them to release it earlier than scheduled (pissing the retailers and devs alike off), and they're the ones who couldn't be bothered to develop games western audiences would respond to, despite the HUGE success in the western markets compared to the east.
Plenty of blame can still be laid at the American branch, but people like you need to quit sucking Japanese cock and pretending the Saturn didn't have huge problems due to the Japanese team as well.

>>8512693
>Imagine people in this day still lay all the blame the American branch.
No one does this except for the literal unironic schizo on this board who has created his own version of reality through translated newspaper clippings, and offhand 30 year old video game magazine interviews, that still don't even imply what he's trying to say they do to anyone but him and his malfunctioning brain.
There are mountains upon mountains of evidence as to how shitty Sega's Japanese branch was, not only with 3 different regimes of the American side of the company, but also third party devs that worked with them, and their history of failure is honestly impressive from a standpoint of still somehow being in business.
This is a company that nearly went bankrupt in the 80s, twice in the 90s, did actually go bankrupt in 2001, but survived because the chairman not only forgave all the company's debt to him, but also gave the company all his money upon death, and then STILL almost almost went bankrupt again within the same decade before being bought out. By every objective measure Sega of Japan is one of the worst businesses to ever exist.

>>8512294
>Are you legit retarded? You can go 30-50 deep on sales charts and find million sellers on every other console, because people were actually buying games for them

Do you not understand that a larger console user base means more potential buyers for a game? If Final Fantasy VII was released on the 3do, it wouldn't have sold 6 million copies in two years, even if it shared the exact same marketing campaign.
The more console are sold, the bigger is the user base, and the bigger is your pool of potential buyers.

>If anyone was actually routinely buying Saturn software you wouldn't have 6 games massively frontloaded
Final Fantasy VII sold 2.3 million in Japan in the first three days, with the Playstation having a user base of around 4 million at the time of its release. So using your logic, the Playstation, at the time, did not have people routinely buying games for it - the same way the Saturn was only bought for Virtua Fighter.

In fact, your entire argument about attach rate is backwards. Selling 500k on a console with 5 million units is better than selling 1m on a console with 40 million units. Because it means that on the first console, your sales can grow far larger in relation to the user base: if both consoles had a base of 40 million, the first console would sell you 4 million games at the same attach rate. That's how attach rate works.

>>8512354
I think rather the bigger issue would have been cartridge data capacity than 2D rendering, assuming it would be similar in size and enemy variety to SotN. Higher capacity ROM chips were very costly and compression algorithms would eat up CPU power for certain, the Sega CD was available but maybe the project was earmarked for the 32X (with Sega sponsoring Konami for a "killer-app")?

I always pictured the 32x proto-SotN game to have looked like pretty much like Rondo but with an openly explorable castle, and seeing the suped up Genesis was a lot more powerful than a PC-Engine it should have been possible with comparable graphics on the Sega CD.

>>8511816
Sega Rally was the 4th best seller behind VF2, VF and Fighters Megamix.

>>8512737
cope

>>8512737
The important factor here is software attachment rate. If only 10 systems are sold but all 10 owners buy a game then that game has a 1:1 attachment rate. In the case of the Saturn the software attachment rate was pitiful. It was a similar situation to what happened with the Wii when most everyone used it just for bowling. Except at least in that case it had the benefit of selling a billion units. The Saturn had no such luck. The N64 sold similar numbers to the Saturn in Japan, about 5 million. But the software attachment rate was much much better.

>>8512737
PS1 and N64 owners were buying far more games than Saturn owners. A Saturn owner bought Virtua Fighter and that's it. A PS1 owner typically bought 5-10 games on average easy. That's the metric that keeps a system alive.

>>8512746
https://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17294

Sega Rally sold 1.2 million

>>8512737
>Do you not understand that a larger console user base means more potential buyers for a game?
Do you not understand that no one bought Saturn games? Attach rates are low on other consoles because actually bought more than 3 games on them. 5 million people would buy FF7 and then 1 million would buy Madden, a different 1m Twisted Metal, or Metal Gear, or tomb raider. People would buy PlayStations to plays games plural, not a game. The Saturn has it's sales all in 6 games because no one else wanted anything else on it, they didn't play the console, they didn't buy a Saturn to play games they bought one to play Virtua Fighter and Sakura Taisen.
The closet comparison in this regard is the N64 which sold less than the Saturn, and yet it still has more million sellers, more 500k sellers, and more 300k sellers because people bought an N64 to play more than 3 games.

>>8512782
Saturn has an attach ratio of 9

>>8512768
>>8512774
You are using attach rate in the exact opposite way of how it works.

>It was a similar situation to what happened with the Wii when most everyone used it just for bowling. Except at least in that case it had the benefit of selling a billion units.
The Wii sold a billion units? ok, whatever you say.

>>8512615
I'll give you the part about being hard to develop for, sure. I only partially agree with the Saturn having the worst 3D graphics of the main 3. Certainly worse than the N64, but as for how it stacks up against the PS1, Thats usually more of a toss-up.
>INB4 transparencies were better on the Playstation
Yes, but there's more to 3D graphics than transparencies. Also, quad-based rendering is not a problem in and of itself. The 3DO also uses quad-based rendering, and it had way bigger problems beyond what it based its polygons on. The main problems were with the VDP-1 being often so fucking clunky and the two CPUs being on the EXACT SAME BUS!

>>8512789
Wrong, it's 6.15 in Japan, even the N64 had a higher attach rate there which is considered a failure in Japan. So much for the "Saturn was successful in Japan!" meme...

>>8512795
Why are you so obsessed with attach rate, especially when the Saturns wasn't even good? Any niche console will have a high attach rate, because the few people who buy anything for it will buy a lot. This is literally reflected in the sales numbers, and why it has so many games that sold under 100k, and so few that sold over 300k. This is completely separate from the argument which is that the majority of people bought a Saturn to play 1 game, and never touched it otherwise.

>Saturn attach ratio
>USA: 3.78, EU: 3.30, JP: 6.15

>Dreamcast attach ratio
>USA: 8.89, EU: 7.36, JP: 6.82

What went so god damn right, Stolarbros?

>>8512780
That article doesn't mention which console version it talks about, or if its just one version. Sega Rally sold 500k in japan according to Famitsu weekly sales charts. If the Saturn version reached 1.2 million then it would have to include US and EU sales too.
Which would make sense, the game sold a shitload in Europe, it is one of the most common PAL games you can see around.

>>8512804
Citation needed? Saturn sold 9 million worldwide and 80 million software. That's 9 game per console.

>>8512795
You literally don't know what you're talking about. Like it's actually incorrect. And getting pissy about obvious hyperbole for effect is silly.

>>8512816
That's not how it works. You can't just look at the total game sales in aggregate. You have to look at the breakdown on a per-game basis.

>>8512821
Cool story bro. Thanks for exposing yourself as a troll. Saves me the time with wasting my time with you.

>>8512816
Source is vgchartz.com

Now where are you pulling your figures from? Your asshole?

>>8512816
There weren't even 9m Saturns made let alone sold. Sega stopped producing them in fucking 1996 because they were going to go bankrupt if they didn't. The serial numbers prove there were at most 6 and a half million made

>>8512825
I don't know how else to describe it to you. You're actually getting the concept wrong.

>>8512810
Imagine how much higher it'd be if Sega of Japan weren't run by retards and didn't include MIL-CD which gave way to easy Dreamcast piracy...

>>8512828
>He thinks vgchatz is accurate.
Holy shit.

https://segaretro.org/index.php?title=File:AnnualReport1998_English.pdf&page=9

Saturn sold over 8 million by 1998. It was sold until 2000 so it most likely did cross 9 million.

>>8512782
>The closet comparison in this regard is the N64 which sold less than the Saturn, and yet it still has more million sellers, more 500k sellers, and more 300k sellers because people bought an N64 to play more than 3 games.

N64 sold 40 million. It has a higher install base.
A higher install base means you have more buyers.
More buyers means more sales.
So the N64 can have a shit attach rate and still have multiple million sellers because your game only has to appeal to one person out of 40.
What you are arguing for is that the larger user base allows for any random title to more easily reach higher sales, but that's not how the attach rate works.

What you should be saying isn't that the Saturn had a low attach rate (this is not true), it's that it wasn't HIGH ENOUGH to make up for the cost deficit of making the hardware (especially as they dropped the price more and more). Which is another case of Sega being absolute fucking retards because if they take the hit for selling twice the amount of consoles, all their games would end up selling twice as well, plus all the third party games sell twice as well giving them more license money, plus the console is now more attractive to more third party developers, which brings even more license money in, etc...

The Saturn was completely retarded and a huge fucking failure, but not for the reason you are saying. Go back to bernieposting, that was funnier.

>>8512816
How far up your fucking ass did you reach for these numbers? The Saturn would have needed almost 500 different games to sell double what they did to even approach 80 million total software sales.

>>8512860
Saturn has over 1000 games dude

>>8512849
Manufacturing most definitely stopped by 1998. They would have been selling ones already made by then. SoA even stopped manufacturing the backup carts by 1998. Working Designs threw a fit over it because they were still selling games that needed save space and you couldn't find the carts.

>>8512862
Hitachi and Samsung were making Saturns too. As were Tectoy

>>8512861
And 70% of them are mahjong, slots, date VNs and literal porn that sold like 5k copies max. You are on a whole other level of delusion to think Saturn software got anywhere close to 80m

>>8512871
Even though Sega themselves said it sold 80 million. Okay bud.

>>8512849
There are literally not 8 million Saturns made. All the serial numbers stop in the low 6 millions. Unless there's somehow 3+ million undocumented Saturns floating around Japan somehow and no one has managed to ever find them, you're speaking bullshit.

>>8512884
>All the serial numbers stop in the low 6 millions.
post proof

>>8512884
Sega: we sold 8.8 million Saturns by fiscal 1998
4chan zoomer: no muh vgchartz

>>8512874
The same Sega statement where they lost 2 million more Saturns being sold then that actually physically exist in the world.

>>8512891
Yeha you're just full of shit Bernie. Still bitter about being fired I see.

Regardless of whether or not people were buying lots of Saturn games early on, the sales numbers dropped off a fucking cliff after 1996/1997. This part at least is indisputable.

>>8512874
Every Saturn game would have needed to average out to almost 100k units for that number to be correct.
We already had a huge discussion about barely any game eclipsing 500k, that would mean that all those mahjong, slot, VNs, porn collections, weird licensing tie ins, all of that would have needed to sell between 50-100k a piece.
I cannot accurately describe how retarded you are to think those numbers are real.

>>8512896
You have a mental illness and need to take anti-psychotic medication.

>>8512908
Yeah, as much as those games seem like awesome otaku treasure to American weebs, it was really just the 90s Japanese equivalent of shovelware.

>>8512795
>The Wii sold a billion units? ok, whatever you say.

>>8513013
Some were and some weren't, and your average weeb can generally tell the difference.

>Me: Why no SOR, Golden Axe, Phantasy Star, T&E, Ecco?
>Weebs: there's like 9000 Japan only anime mecha shooters that are good!

every. single. time.

>>8508927
It literally was not sold in most stores... retail didn't buy them, didn't promote them, and customers didn't want them. It was failure in all regards.

>>8515512
Don’t blame fans for Sega’s failures.