/vr/ - Retro Games

>>668310

>clocky

*blocky

>>668265

I gots one of these. It's not great for emulation, because it only goes down to 640x480, and for whatever reason Dreamcast games look incredibly clocky and pixelated on it.

Once my last CRT started getting dim as fuck, I swore to never use one again unless ABSOLUTELY necessary.

And I don't plan on playing light gun games any time soon. I even bought new video cables for my C64s so I don't have to dick with my AmiEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEga monitor.

>>668310
At least it's great for PC gaming.
What's the max refresh rate at 1600x1200 and 1920x1080?

Why don't light guns work on LCDs?

>>668323

85 Hz.

I also can't get the thing calibrated correctly. All of the detail is lost in the darks.

>>668329
85Hz is pretty low. F520 can do 100Hz at high resolutions.

Since I've moved to LCD, CRT monitors give me a headache after about half an hour. Anyone else have this problem?

>>668328

Lag.

Continued from >>668320

I don't think Atari programmers in 1982 had Sony PVMs from 2004

>>668339

It's better than the 60 that I'm used to.

>>668341
What did they use?

>>668352
I would guess something like an Amdek color composite monitor

>>668356
And of course the end user was probably playing on some shitty 13" TV with tuner dials

>>668341
How many on /vr/ actually play Atari games?
Most seem to be interested in SNES and PS1 games.

>>668368
I mentioned in the previous thread that I had a 1993 RCA 27" set which is a typical TV that would have been used with SNES or PS1 games in the 90s, but the resident troll proceeded to tear me a new one.

>>668368
I've seen more interest in N64 than PS1 games because the whole retro game hipster thing now is heavily Nintendo-centered. Sega or PS1 stuff doesn't bring nearly the ridiculous prices.

>>668328
>>668337
this, it's input lag.

>>668341
okay, now I know you are trolling. because we spent the entire last half of that thread telling you that it's not about getting an authentic experience but the best possible picture quality.

>>668379
And I have a Trinitron from 1994.

>>668337
>>668412
No.

>>668328
Light guns depend on the flickering that happens as a CRT repeatedly scans out raster frames. The light sensor in the gun will be focused on one part of the screen, and will see the brightness jump sharply and then decay exponentially as the beam passes. The timing of this event versus the vsync signal gives the amount of time between the frame start and where the gun is pointed, which is then used to calculate a position on the screen.

LCD and Plasma displays do not light up the screen in a raster pattern, so this timing method cannot be used on them, even if they could change pixel values instantaneously. Plasma, potentially, could simulate the effect. (I don't know if it would be precise enough, though, because Plasma displays flicker very quickly to generate shades of brightness.) OLED definitely could, with appropriate driver hardware.

>>668337
>>668412
My god, how do people this dumb even figure out how to power up a computer and post on /vr/?

Lemme explain in detail because you're really this uninformed:

CRTs have a thing called an electron beam. It zigzags from the upper left to the lower right of the screen at crazy fast speeds while illuminating the phosphor. Light guns contain a sensor that detects the electron beam as it's racing down the screen. Since flat panel displays have no electron beam, thus light guns have nothing to pick up.

I hope I didn't make it too complicated for you. It's tough being this ADHD.

>>668442
>OLED definitely could, with appropriate driver hardware

By all accounts I've heard, you'd burn out an OLED panel doing that

>>668417
Then you admit it's all just hipsterism. In which case you may as well just play games on an HDTV and be done with it since you aren't interested in authenticity.

>>668448
Depends on the characteristics of the panel. You would need one that could withstand a higher instantaneous brightness (but essentially the same total light output over any 1/60th of a second).

>>668451
HDTVs don't give the best possible picture quality for 15KHz signals, though. Professional 15KHz picture monitors do.

>>668479
What are the inputs?

>>668456
Does my Amiga's monitor count? That does 15Khz RGB

>>668479
Don't mind him. He apparently forgets that retro games were designed with the idea of being used on an average consumer TV with RF or composite inputs.

>>668451
wait, maybe I am confused on what hipster means. Because in my mind using a crt of poor quality from the 80's just to feel authentic would be a hipster to me.

While spending needless money on something solely for getting the best possible picture sounds to me like something an audiophile would do with music.

Looks like I really missed some shit.

>>668484
>RF or composite
Unless you were in euroland with an RGB SCART cable.

>>668443
>>668442
I always thought it was because the zapper would be looking for the blacked out screen but the lag would mean it came to late. Thanks for correcting that.

What about the menacer? Would that work on an lcd?

>>668483
Not him, but the usual Amiga display was the Commodore 1084s which sports RGB, composite, and S-video (but slightly nonstandard variant designed for the C64/128)

>>668484
The average PC game in 2013 is designed with the idea of being used on an average consumer 1080p monitor and a mid to high-end graphics card.
That doesn't mean using four titans on three 2560x1600 displays is unauthentic.

>>668492
This entire board is about hipsterism, buddy boy

>>668518
How so?

>>668517
Except that he's suggesting that mid-2000s PVM displays and Wegas with component inputs existed in the 80s-90s and were used with retro consoles.

>>668520
Because we're so hipster that we reject modern gaming and post on Youtube how we were born in the wrong generation while wearing a Led Zeppelin T-shirt.

>>668512
>RGB
RGB is a signal, what about the input?

>>668530
It's a 9-pin D-shell

>>668526
Who suggested Wegas? They are 31 KHz.

Anyway, nobody suggested that year 2000 TVs existed in 1990, what is being suggested is that these TVs deliver the best overall quality for retro games, not that they are authentic.

>>668550

SDTV WEGAs are 15KHz.

>>668550
Ok so you admit you're a hipster and not actually looking for authenticity

>>668526
Wait what? Born in the wrong generation? But I was born in the 80's so I did grow up with 8 and 16 bit games. I might be a little nostalgic about them but I think it is a legitimate hobby.

>>668570
There are SDTV WEGAs? They don't do any digital processing, do they?

>>668573
>Wait what? Born in the wrong generation? But I was born in the 80's

Eh...so was I (born in 88). I think I've played more CGA PC and C64 games than anything else retro and I don't even really remember back then.

>>668582

Nope. You're probably thinking of their modern LCDs.

Their SDTV (and HDTV) CRTs also carried the WEGA brand name.

Common myth:

LCD TVs are fixed resolution while CRTs are not

Wrongo. SD CRT TVs absolutely are fixed resolution. They all run at 15Khz and games nearly always use some variant of 320x200 or 256x224.

>>668578
I really dont think you know what hipster is. A hipster is someone who will ride one of those big wheeled bikes despite better bikes being more available just to be more authentic. While we are trying to get the best possible picture. It's like we are riding road bikes while they are riding the big front wheel bikes while putting hair grease on their mustache

>>668578
Being passionate for quality is hipsterish?
If so, I am happy to be a hipster.

>>668603

Fixie pixie

>>668597
I think what he means is that HDTVs are much higher resolution and have to scale up NTSC

They used to have SDTV LCDs in the early 2000s that did NTSC resolution. Why don't they have them anymore?

>>668625
Because most consumers want HD.

I have a old SD LCD which although does look better than a HDTV for retro games, the blacks are horrible since it is one of the first LCD TV's made and uses a ancient form of backlighting.

It also lacks scanlines so a lot of jaggies are noticeable on older games.

>>668625
Why would they? HD displays are cheap to manufacture these days and most programming has already switched over to HD or is going to make the transition soon.

They are basing tech off of demand now, not demand from 20 years ago.

>>668625
Retro gaming, although popular would be a niche market so the manufacturing costs would be pretty high and companies wouldnt be able to make much of a profit.

>>668638
>I have a old SD LCD which although does look better than a HDTV for retro games, the blacks are horrible since it is one of the first LCD TV's made and uses a ancient form of backlighting

Not same guy, but as you point out, those things use way outdated technology. I have an LG 1024x768 VGA monitor from 2004 which essentially has the same kind of panel as the pictured set and it's not very good. It's very hard to find any new 4:3 LCDs except as replacement displays for CNC equipment.

And OTR, I have been on retro gaming/computer sites before where some people mentioned using those old SDTV LCDs on their systems as a lighter, more manageable CRT alternative.

>>668597
SD CRT televisions do not have a fixed horizontal resolution.

This is why it's a problem to produce good SD LCDs.
>>668625
You can't make a LCD that's simultaneously 256x224 and 320x224 with correct aspect ratios in both.

Let me just join this debate by saying that even "back in the day" a hardcore gamer that wanted the best Space Invaders experience would not have been playing Space Invaders on an Atari hooked up to a TV. He would have been playing a Space Invaders arcade machine containing, you guessed it, a 15khz syncing RGB CRT very similar to the Sony PVMs that /vr/ recommends. PVMs just have nice metal cabinets and also support other modes so they're more versatile.

>>668597
>They all run at 15Khz
This means that they have the same number of picture lines per second. This does not mean that they have exactly the same number of lines per field or fields per second (though there are limits to the field rates that most will accept). It certainly does not mean that they have a fixed number of pixels per line, which is apparent given that retro video games use many different horizontal resolutions between 160 and 512 pixels per line.

>>668673
>SD CRT televisions do not have a fixed horizontal resolution

No, but NTSC does impose a horizontal resolution limit which is about 448 pixels across.

>>668676
That's comparing apples and oranges. Besides, early 80s arcade machines used shadow mask CRTs to the best of my knowledge and not Trinitrons.

>>668693
In addition to which color TV tubes have shadow masks/aperture grilles too coarse to have high horizontal resolutions. Note that PC monitors use much finer ones.

>>668693
This is true, but doesn't change the fact that (even on one system) there were games with multiple different horizontal resolutions which were all intended to be displayed in 4:3 across the same 240 or so lines.

>>668708
>not using an 800TVL BVM

>>668710
Consider for example 160x200 resolution. It's just 320x200 with the pixels doubled up. 256x224 systems like the NES/SNES leave a border area on the sides.

IOW, you still have the same 448x224 effective resolution regardless

>>668702
Well, not all want aperture grille, it's a simple preference, and most of us prefer Trinitrons.

>>668727
This is incorrect. The NES and SNES scan out pixels slower than, for example, a Genesis running in 40-column mode. The pixels are non-square either way, and are different widths in each case.

>>668727
C64 for example is really 384x224, but the active screen area is 320x200

>>668729
I wouldn't mind having a nice RGB capable shadowmask based CRT to go along with my PVM.

>>668738
I've used an NES and an IBM XT with CGA (320x200) before and the pixels are both more-or-less rectangular.

I have noticed that emulators do not get the aspect ratio right and cause them to have square pixels.

>>668739
At least they programmed the overscan area to have a nice colour.

>>668727
Analog displays do not have any concept of "pixels". The horizontal resolution is determined by how quickly the game console can output pixels. Old hardware like the Atari 2600 could only switch display output 160 times per line. Newer consoles like the Genesis and PS1 could switch up to 320 times per line. There's no "doubling" happening, the signal just changes faster.

Go boot up some different Genesis games. They all use (approximately) the same pixel data for the SEGA logo. Some run in 256px mode, some run in 320px mode. You can see the difference in the logo width - it's stretched horizontally when the games run in 256px mode. The pixels are getting output to the display at a slower rate. (Also, annoyingly, the whole VDP is clocked down... slower DMA and everything.)

>>668746
This.

This is why it's important to have at least a 1600x1200 LCD, if you can't get a real tube, to play DOS games on. 320x5 = 1600, 200x6 = 1200. 1600x1200 screens can display 320x200 games, pixel-perfect, at the correct aspect ratio (and are the lowest-resolution square-pixel display to do so).

>>668702
>Comparing 15khz RGB shadow mask CRTs to 15khz RGB aperture mask CRTs
>Comparing apples to oranges
More like comparing Granny Smiths to Red Delicious

What is the argument that the HDTV people are making, exactly?

>>668739
So the C64 pixels are a different width than NES/SNES/Genesis(32col) pixels, which are a different width than Saturn/PlayStation/Genesis(40col) pixels.

It's really a nightmare trying to use SD machines on a fixed-pixel display.

>>668743
I'm sure there's a junk arcade machine available on your local Craigslist with a monitor in it that might just need caps.

inb4 phosphor burn

>>668771
I really wouldn't know what to look for, in terms of good arcade monitors.

That and my craigslist never seems to have anything good. Except that one Saturn lot a few years ago that had Panzer Dragoon Saga and some other games CIB for ~$50.

I really wish I knew how much it went for back then.

Corrected for aspect ratio, NES games should look like this

What kinda cable would I need to connect an old CRT TV I have to my PC as a kinda second monitor for ye olde emulation?

>>668750
The border on the C64 can be any color you want; blue is just the power-on default

>>668751
>Analog displays do not have any concept of "pixels". The horizontal resolution is determined by how quickly the game console can output pixels

Consoles don't "switch" anything, the display does.. What they have is a pixel clock which determines how fast the electron gun switches on each scanline.

>>668809
The best kind of cable your CRT will accept

>>668819
Where can I browse? Only plugs of note on the CRT are the typical yellow, red, white ones.

>>668818
In addition to which the NTSC pixel clock is always 14.31818 Mhz

>>668823
If your video card doesn't have a TV-out, you'll need a composite encoder and some way of setting a 15KHz video mode.

>>668802
They're all pretty good and they all display RGBS. A rule of thumb is the newer the better. As far as connecting them to your systems, SCART to JAMMA adapters are cheap.

>>668828
Note that this applies to luminance. The chroma (color) clock is always 3Mhz, thus NTSC changes luminance at twice the rate it changes color.

>>668823
Well then that's what you should use. SVideo out of a video card dropped down to composite with an adapter. Although you should be able to find much better CRTs for the price of the adapter all over the thrift stores.

>>668809
There exist VGA -> NTSC converters, but they only support interlaced 640x480 which looks awful if you try to use it with a PC.

>>668818
>>668828
You are so wrong, it isn't even funny. An analog video signal, within each line, is just that - ANALOG. SD CRT displays have no "clock" aside from the synchronization and deflection circuitry which keeps the vertical and horizontal oscillation locked to the video signal. The game console is in charge of feeding pixels through a DAC (or rather, 3 DACs) at a fixed rate, and then (optionally) feeding those outputs through a video encoder, to generate a signal.

(NES exempt, of course - its hardware actually generates 12 different chroma phases internally to switch between, and never actually produces RGB.)

NTSC's chroma clock is 3.58MHz. It has no pixels, as it is an analog standard.

>>668751
>You can see the difference in the logo width - it's stretched horizontally when the games run in 256px mode. The pixels are getting output to the display at a slower rate

See >>668806

256x224 will always be horizontally stretched on a real console+TV (not emulators) because the NTSC pixel clock stays the same.

>>668818
>>668828
>>668842
What the fuck am I reading?

http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/1184

Please, educate yourself.

>>668846
Looks awful for PC purposes, but looks "normal" when emulating... Aside from the conversion lag of course. They usually have a VGA passthrough too so you can display on both simultaneously. Although most of them that can be had cheap require 640x480

>>668854
>256x224 will always be horizontally stretched on a real console+TV
Yes.

>because the NTSC pixel clock stays the same.
No, it's because the ratio of active to total pixel clocks (from the game's video system, nothing to do with any video encoding) is still approximately the same as broadcast television. (You could generate a signal which displayed 256 pixels per line in a pillarbox, by having very large horizontal porches.)

>>668849
Wow, you're getting dumber with every post. The pixel clock determines how fast the electron guns should turn on and off each scanline. Now, this isn't a physical piece of data the CRT uses, rather it's the speed at which the signal is sent. On VGA for example, the default is 720x400 in text mode. If you switch to 320x200, it's not changing the signal as fast as in 720 pixel mode. In 640x200, the signal is sent twice as fast as 320x200.

NTSC is fixed frequency however and the luminance is always sent at 14Mhz.

>>668857
>but looks "normal" when emulating
A 480i signal will not look like a 240p signal on a real CRT display. If you pixel-double up to (approximately) 640x480 and then output as 480i, you'll get a 1-line 60hz vertical bob that wouldn't be there on a real console. (Any individual field will be "correct", but it's still annoying).

>>668875
>The pixel clock determines how fast the electron guns should turn on and off each scanline. Now, this isn't a physical piece of data the CRT uses, rather it's the speed at which the signal is sent.

Oh ok, nvm. When I read >>668828. I assumed you meant an actual data thing like a clock.

>>668864
>(You could generate a signal which displayed 256 pixels per line in a pillarbox, by having very large horizontal porches)

True, but it would still be the same NTSC 14Mhz pixel clock

>>668875
>The pixel clock determines how fast the electron guns should turn on and off each scanline
No, the pixel clock is how quickly pixels are generated by the video hardware. In a game console, this is typically a sprite engine (which overlays moving sprites on a scrolling tile layer, typically rendering ahead one line at a time internally for output). In a PC, this is typically a RAMDAC/CRTC (or "video address generator") hooked up to the back of a dual-port (or multiplexed) video RAM.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs140/projects/pintos/specs/freevga/vga/crtcreg.htm
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/PPU_frame_timing

>The pixel clock determines how fast the electron guns should turn on and off each scanline.
Within each scanline, the brightness of the beam is modulated by the R/G/B video signals getting fed to the tube. At the end of each scanline, there is a "blanking" or "retrace" period, triggered by the horizontal sync signal. Neither one concerns the timing of individual pixels.

>NTSC is fixed frequency however and the luminance is always sent at 14Mhz.
Broadcast NTSC has an upper bandwidth limitation because of FCC regulations. Baseband CVBS NTSC has no such restriction, and - with a good comb filter - can have essentially unlimited luma resolution (check out old game consoles on a high-end Wega). It has no fixed pixel frequency - it is an analog medium, and was in fact purely analog until very recently (camera tubes don't have pixels).

DO NOT SPREAD MISINFORMATION.
http://www.ntsc-tv.com/ntsc-index-02.htm
http://www.batsocks.co.uk/readme/video_timing.htm

>>668890
Again, NTSC does not have pixels. It is an analog standard from the 1940s.

>>668876
Dude he's talking about using composite. That shit isn't going to matter to him. He just wants his emulators on his TV. Don't be a CRT elitist.

What CRT would you all say has the LCD-like image quality?

>>668958
One with vaseline and grey paint all over the front

>>668929
First, distinguishing between 480i and 240p is important when the scanlines are so large (60hz flicker is annoying).

Second, wanting a correct and stable image does not make one an "elitist".

>>668958
16:9 HD ones but why would you want that?

>>668967
No but wanting someone else to buy stuff he doesn't want to be up to your standards does

Most CRT's made after 1994 will be good enough, I had a chinese no name one with S-video and component that was perfectly fine, 100 times better than my 32" bravia LED.

I picked up a 21" Sony trinitron with Scart, but I don't have any RGB cables for it yet besides for my wii so i'm using a composite to SCART adapter.

The picture quality for composite is a little bit better than the chinese TV, but not by much.

RGB is good on the wii but only a slight step up from component.

>>669064
Get them cables, Bro. Do you know how rare Trinitrons with RGB SCART are? In the US anyway.

>>669142
I'm in australia, so they are around but not very common.

I think mine might have been imported though.

>>669146
You guys are PAL there right? Seems like there's just no perfect region.

>>669154
Yeah, but the TV is NTSC compatible.

My SNES, master system and Mega drive are all 60hz modded.

>>669215
Living the dream

>>669154
Not having SCART is just an inconvenience that can be solved by using adapters for BNC, Americans still get the long end of the stick.

What kind sync with RGB do the different consoles use? Do Trinitrons support them all?

>>669360
With a very few monitors. That guy probably found his trinitron at a yard sale for five australian dollarydoos which is like fifty cents american.

I recently dusted off my snes, and picked up a few extra games and a nes.
Now I'm on the lookout for a crt tv to go with it.
I'm from Europe, and so far every tv I tested had this high-pitched whine. I don't remember this from when I was a kid, but it's probably a suppressed memory, heh.
Is this the same for every tv, or do better quality tv's don't have this?
Also, the horrible flickering is probably something I'll have to live with, since it's 50hz, right?

ITT: No one knows who Roo is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3tBk-LYyzo

>>670142
bitch, CotGW is probably the best retro YT channel around. Everyone should know who he is.

>>670160

Apparently nobody in this thread watches him, as they all have crackpot theories about how light guns work.

Is it risky to get CRTs shipped? Besides not knowing if it works properly, can it get damaged on the way?

>>671114
Yes. They don't pack it properly and that picture tube is ded.

Saw one of these on Craigs List. Buy?

>>671124
>widescreen CRT

more like whydscreen

>>670160
Castle of the Gay Winds?

>>671124
If you want, sure.

>>671129
Turn wide screen mode off. Profit.

>>671157
They still don't play well with 240p sources.

>>671159
It should be fine because CRTs wouldn't get tripped up by interlacing

>>671124
If it's practically free then sure. You'd be better off finding a Trinitron though.

>>671129

Cool with with a couple of PS2 titles that have it. Don't get everyone's issues with letterboxing. You never even had that space to begin with!

>>671173
>>671157
I mostly just wanted to make that pun

>>671170

>>671194
Doesn't look familiar, is that one of the later HD models?

>>671116
What if the seller promises that he has packed it good?

>>671206
If it's wide screen, I think so

>>671221
Nah there's a bunch of widescreen models from 2000-2003 that are widescreen and SD, I have one of them. I wouldn't recommend an HD version.

>>671165
>It should be fine because CRTs wouldn't get tripped up by interlacing
Widescreen ones would and do.

>>671194
I want one of those for my PS2 and Gamecube games.

Saw one at Salvation Army a month or so ago for $70, but I'm broke right now.,

What's a suitable display for 480p era games?

>>668385
So what, hipsters want N64 games now too?


Something tells me I have a very short time to start finishing up my Gamecube collection.

>>671345

One of these: >>671194

>>671354
Hopefully by the time their prices start skyrocketing, SNES will start to drop.

>>668603
I don't think you know what a hipster is either. They're just trend-followers but for things that are completely arbitrary and often unpopular or just below the face of mainstream popularity.

Ultimately it's a stupid form of flaunting your knowledge of things the 'average' person does not, while not actually knowing anything at all. ie. most clothing sold by Hot Topic.

>>671384

>expecting retro prices to drop

There is no evidence to suggest this will ever happen. The era of cheap games is behind us.

>>668665
What's the point if it lacks scanlines, true blacks, and other 'finer things' of CRTs?

>>671360
Aren't HD TVs only digital? I was thinking of using a desktop CRT for zero input lag.

>>671417

>Aren't HD TVs only digital?

Not all of them, no. There was a brief era of HD CRTs.

>>671417
That'd work damn well for a Dreamcast. Just grab a VGA box and go.

>>668763
I believe that the argument here is that if you're not attempting to track down and find the exact type of TV used in original arcades, or better the exact model of TV that the programmers used while designing the game, then you are not being truly authentic and are no better than hipsters playing NES games on their HDTVs, because you don't care about honest authenticity, just what you consider to be the best picture quality. The argument is a bit odd, but sort of logical, since in a way this sensation of picture quality is subjective, and you could argue someone playing on an HD display might like the quality better than when it's on another display, and thus to them that's the 'best' way to play the game. Under their argument of 'pure authenticity' only the original period TVs are acceptable, or closer yet the exact displays used for development, because they were making the games for those displays and with those kinds of TVs in mind specifically, not with TVs from different eras or of different designs.

That went on pretty long, so let me attempt to simplify:

If you play a game on anything other than the kind of TV it was originally designed for (either what the devs used exactly, or what the devs considered a 'typical' display at the time of development/relesae), then you are not truly playing for authenticity, but for what you personally feel produces the best picture quality, which by their standards makes you no better than the 'NES-on-an-HDTV' hipsters who make the same claims about their own playing setup.

>>671430
Dreamcast has patchy VGA support at best.

>>671402
>What's the point if it lacks scanlines

Most CRTs that people actually used in the 80s were too fuzzy to have visible scanlines. It's purely a hipster thing to insist on having them.

>>671435

If by patchy, you mean nearly universal, then yes.

>>671434
False dichotomy. "If you can't do it perfectly you might as well not bother" is not a logical argument here.

>>668771
don't companies like Suzo-Happ still make CRT arcade monitors?

>>671436

Actually, scanlines directly act to improve the visual quality of the picture. It has nothing to do with hipsterdom or authenticity.

>>671451
Which is bull. I have a Dell 17" monitor on one of my old PCs and in resolutions above 640x480, you can't see any scanlines and the picture is completely smooth.

>>671402
>true blacks
Same thing. I've seen plenty of CRTs that didn't have good black, and this was especially true of the TVs people used in the 80s.

>>671442
the one I'm putting in my MAME cab came from some florida company that makes replacement monitors for "Cherry Master" video slot things

it looks fucking glorious at native resolutions

>>671436
oh? How do you know this?

This might lead to an odd adventure, but do there exist photo galleries of CRT displays of all types being run? Perhaps if we had such a thing at our disposal then we could see the 'true' composite of what a CRT display of the eras should look like.

>>671461
>in resolutions above 640x480
Yeah so?

>>671465
I have a Sears 13" set from 1978 (rebranded Panasonic) and unless you're one inch from the screen, you can't see any scan lines.

>>671473
Which debunks the idea that scan lines have anything to do with improving picture quality

>>671484
>debunks the idea that scan lines have anything to do with improving picture quality

What? No it doesn't.

>>671461

It doesn't have anything to do with "smooth". Scanlines break up pixel art, which adds definition and prevents the colors from running together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vscKaVByjRU#t=261s

>>671486
Like I said, that's bunk because the typical TVs people played retro games on in their day didn't have visible lines and devs were completely aware of this.

>>671504

You must have said this to me a dozen times now, and I still have no idea how it has anything to do with what we're talking about.

Scanlines: Better picture
No Scanlines: Worse picture

Watch the video.

You need a larger black matrix CRT with preferably composite or better inputs to have easily distinct scan lines and those sets were not that common before the mid-90s.

>>671504
It's objective fact that scanlines give a natural anti aliasing effect and reduce color bleed.

>>671520
>>671518
For the last time, it's irrelevant when people in the 80s had TVs that usually couldn't even display visible lines. For some reason, you can't comprehend that NES or whatever games weren't played on 32" Wegas in 1988.

I understand that one problem with HDTVs is that they display 240p as a 480p progressive scan signal.

Wonder why TV manufacturers can't make a scaler that renders both NTSC fields on top of each other like would occur on a CRT?

>>671536
How does people using shit CRTs negate the fact that scanlines improve image quality? You seriously think the devs were using those hunks of shit?

>>671536

How is something that directly influences the quality of the picture irrelevant?

I am not trying to recreate what it was like to play games in the 80's.

I am trying to get the best picture quality for my games.

Do you understand? Answer this question with a yes or a no.

Watch. The. Video.

>>671549
>You seriously think the devs were using those hunks of shit?

It would depend on the dev, but by all accounts it seems that most of them had either Amdek color composite monitors or regular shit TVs. Even if they designed the graphics with scanlines in mind, it was a moot point when the consumer couldn't see them on his TV.

>>671559
Not everybody was poor you know.

>>671559

It is not a moot point. Scanlines look better. That is not moot. That is the whole fucking point. That is the opposite of moot.

>>671536
I don't normally weigh in on these debates, but how can you say something is bunk and irrelevant that some feature improves picture just because that feature wasn't as available as it could've been?

>>671553
>I am not trying to recreate what it was like to play games in the 80's

In that case, you should just play them on an emulator since you're apparently interested in trying to recreate picture quality that didn't exist when the games were out.

>>671570

He's been in this thread trolling since last night. Just forget it.

>>671576
Who's he?

>>671573
>didn't exist
Yes it did you dumb shit.

>>671576
ok, im outta here

>>671573

I am interested in getting the best picture quality. An emulator does not accomplish this. Original hardware displaying on a modern CRT with scanlines accomplishes this.

>>671582
It's two idiots who were here last night. I know it's the same guys because their arguments are exactly the same.

>>671583
They had Trinitrons with component inputs in the 80s?

>>671589
>An emulator does not accomplish this

Enable filters. Profit.

>>671589
>modern CRT
>existing

>>671618

lel

>>671595
>component
Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

>>671595

They did have oblong pixels and natural scanlines though

Quick, Dash, post your "filters" reaction.

>>671618

>>671595
No but these hipster dudes insist that such TVs did exist in 1983 and everyone had their Atari connected to one.

>>671630

You keep coming back to this well, but it's been dry for a long time.

>>671623
>They did have oblong pixels

CRTs don't have pixels

>and natural scanlines though

Only if you had some more expensive set.

Hey guys, did you know that having a hobby makes you a hipster?

>>671630
FOR THE LAST TIME, NOBODY IS SUGGESTING WE USE 80s TVs WHEN THERE EXISTS BETTER OPTIONS. THAT'S LIKE SAYING I SHOULD USE SHIT FLOPPY DISKS ON AN APPLE II INSTEAD OF A MODERN CF CARD.

>>671648
Yes, of curse we did.

We knew it long before you did.

It's so funny how obvious it is that the troll uses only an HDTV.

Trinitron TV's are cheap and easy to find around here. They all have at least 1 scart connector.
Is there anything I should look out for, or will any non-widescreen non-100Hz model be good?
I'm looking for a smaller one because my desk is not that deep, and my room is small.

What makes these TVs so good by the way? Is there any other make/model that is of similar or better quality. Except the PVM, I only found a handful for sale, and the cheapest was €180. Trinitrons all are free~€80, most including a stand or tv cabinet.

>>671640

They are able to make the pixels that consoles output effectively oblong though.

>>671667
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_grille

>>671680
I see. Thanks!

>>671680
>>671667
Would this one be gud?
http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4205481721.pdf

>>671785
Yes.

>>671667
Just make sure it can do NTSC

>>672181

Doesn't that not matter if you use RGB though?

>>671595
No, but they had Arcade monitors and most TV's in Europe had RGB SCART.

Plenty of high end TV's in the 80's had visible scanlines too.

>>672327
It matters if it's a TV not a Monitor...something designed to recognize both PAL and TV like a good SCART TV will often try to force sync at either 50 or 60 Hz, negating the point of trying to run arcade games at specific frequencies like 57.263000.

That's a bad example actually, they'll more likely freak out at the 50.1-54.9 Hz range and flip to PAL.

>>672491
The guy I read about who had this problem was able to get R-Type running at 55 Hz eventually though, using custom settings in his GroovyMAME .ini files.

Multiple definitions for when to switch to what, based on front and back porch and other tedious things that Calamity himself talked him through.

Someone in the last thread posted their SNES hooked up to a Trinitron using S-Video. But up close you couldn't see individual pixels the way you can on those SCART / PVM / general RGB pictures that people take.

It looked like my Trinitron, where the pixels are sort of rainbowy up close. Is this a problem with Convergence? The individual guns seems slightly misaligned causing a sort of rainbow hue from a white color rather than pure white.

I know I can change this with the setup menu, but should I? Is this even the problem or is it supposed to look like this with S-Video and Composite?

>>672538
That's the best it can do with composite/svideo

I have some dell CRT montir and for the past several days the colors will occasionally get fucked up.

And less than 10 minutes ago it started doing this thing where the screen moves like a wave and I have no idea how to fix it.

>>672571
Throw it away

>>672538
Thats just the way S-video is.

Because the video signals are mixed, you get bleeding.

With RGB, the signals are separated and don't interfere with each other.

>>672538
That was me. And here is the picture.

>>673751
What's the model?

>>674061
KV-27TS36

I have a viewsonic a75s, not hooked up to anything
Actually all of my screens are viewsonic, they have never made a bad monitor

>>674094
sup /g/. How many thinkpads you got?

>>674076
its beautiful I dont know how filterfags can even think that greyout shit smear over their game looks anything like that

>>674105
none, this is my laptop, and it doesn't even run linux

>>674126
Aww man, now this picture of my T43p running mint with glorious flexview wont have as much impact.

>>674131
so jelly
I bought all that shit on my desk in high school man, anytime I have money anymore I spend it on drugs

I hate myself

pic related, my 18" Panasonic with built in vcr

>>674141
close up

my folks had a nice sony trinitron a year ago they wanted to get rid of, wanted that shit so bad, but it was way too heavy for me to move T_T had to let it go

>>674141
Sorry to hear about that man. Is there no chance of laying off of them?
>>674147
I would have helped you move the TV dude...

Also is that RF or composite?

>>674152
composite, tv has one comp input, on the front... and I have all this shit plugged into it

>old pic, but illustrates my point without needing to take a 2nd picture

I am off them right now, but I'm damn miserable, hence my being up at 12:37 browsing my favorite new board

>>674152
and I know you would've, everyone here is a /vr/o, and usually between ages 18-25

I'm 20 btw, M, NV

>>674165
>>674163
Glad to here that. And thats an awesome collection you got.

And yeah I am 24 but instead of being 12:37 it's 3:52 for me since I'm in Florida. But I work late so it's not to bad. And my wife has been asleep since like 1:30 so I chill on /vr/ and /m/ and watch toku all night.

This random ass TV I found, it's actually decent. "Luma" is the brand, apparently an old Swedish company. (now defunct)

Just used my Wii to check my TV's component settings, and despite being a mid-2000's CRT with component inputs, the TV can handle 240p and 480i component but not the Wii's 480p component signal. What's up with that? And furthermore, I'm confused. Don't CRTs not have a resolution limit? So why would this one not do 480p?

>>674190
>being married that young
I shiggidy-diggidy

>>674238
That is a pretty nice picture actually.
>>674246
Yep, and It will be three years on Monday. Best thing I ever did in my life was marry the girl of my dreams.

>>674258
>mfw 21, renting basement room, still in school and alone

>>674238
Of course it's decent, it's a shadowmask.

>>674246
>>674258
>implying he's married to an actual female
>implying his "wife" isn't a cartoon horse

>>674274
I've always preferred shadow mask CRTs over aperture grille for some reasons

>>674278
fuck off
go back to /b/

>>674290
Your butthurt indicates he touched a raw nerve. Amirite, clopper?

>>674278
I said I watch toku, not ponies. So if she was fake she would look like this. Fortunately she is real and sleeping in bed next to me.

Anyway to stay on topic, here is are the inputs for my trinitron.

>>674290

uh-oh

>>674297
When I say she would like like this I meant to post this picture. But then I selected the other one...

>>674282
Really? What reasons are they? As I said, I like this set, but I would indeed love to get my hands on one of those neat Sony Trinitrons.

>>674240
The model is a DTV2760 (also made by Orion apparently) and according to the web it has 480i, 480p, and 720p support.

>>674302
Cool wife bro

I got this 1080i Samsung for free at a nice apartment complex like a year ago that had it out by the dump area. Hooked it up and only the left speaker wasn't working. I guess it is okay for retro seeing that I can at least put the shit in 4:3 and it has component for PS2/GCN.

>>674294
no, you're just shitposting for the sake of shitposting
we have an entire board dedicated to that
>/b/

>>674498
What happened to your NES?

>>674507
Just repainted the top of it, I haven't put it back on because I cant decide what design to put on it.

>>674516
Oh, that's cool! Going to mask it for a pattern/stripe or something?

>>674516
I am going to do this soon. What kind of paint did you use to make it glossy?

>>674516
>I cant decide what design to put on it.
Wolf howling at the moon.

>>674539
That's plastic primer.

Which consoles do RGB with sync on red, and which do separate sync?

Why is it that Sony makes the best of everything?

Anyone got a SNES TV?

Does it run the inbuilt SNES in RGB?

I was given this huge, beat-up, beige CRT monitor that I was expecting to be all wonky-colored and 800x600. Turned out to be clean as fuck and support resolutions I didn't think existed on home computers when it was made. It's ghastly, weighs a ton, and takes up half my desk, but I can honestly say it's the best monitor I've ever used. And I didn't think I'd ever have a favorite monitor.

Unrelated, back in the early '00s I had like four consecutive monitors from different manufacturers develop this orange glitter that would gradually overtake the screen over a period of months until it eventually became impossible to read text or decipher images. What the fuck was that?

>>674964
I meant the glittery shit happened to LCD monitors I had in the early 00s.

I should have slept.

>>674923
Nope. Direct-connected composite video, like the NES TV. The picture quality is much higher than it would be with AV cable though.

I personally use a Philips from 1999 with a SCART - to - component adapter plus a bunch of SCART RGB cables I mail-ordered from Yerrup. It's the best picture I've been able to get on a SNES.

What's the point of component?
Unlike RGsB, it doesn't directly control the CRT gun, and the colours are worse, yet it still uses the same amount of signals.

It only made sense to use luma and colour difference in broadcasting where bandwidth was limited.

Here's my setup.

Mine is a Daewoo DC

How good/bad is it, playing trough Composite

Wait...wait. Wait a minute.

I spent years forced into having to use a giant fat monitor that weighed a ton and I had to drag it around embarassingly anytime I moved. Getting an lcd monitor made things so much better with me and everything on it looks a million times better.

So there are people who are intentionally buying and using junk?

>>675952
Because we don't like motion to look like blurry shit.

>>675952
Quality>Convenience

If you move around a lot, I perfectly understand not wanting to lug around a heavy CRT.

>>675952

>everything on it looks a million times better.

>>675990
>>676009
>>676023
I'm sorry if you three can't appreciate the pixels in artwork and prefer to have them scrunched, blurred and blended together, and with lines through them. As a sprite artist though I like to see and appreciate every pixel drawn by the artist who drew them.

>>676041
What a troll.

Try again.

>>676041
Please note: This is /vr/

>>676041
You are the one seeing the game as a blurry mess.

>>676041
>CRTs
>not scrunched, blurred, and all that
>no lines running through the picture
Not sure if sarcasm or serious

I get that there's nostalgia appeal to having a CRT display but are there any proper advantages? I much prefer an LCD because everything looks much sharper

>>676041
>CRTs are so last decade, man I love being on the edge XD

>>676518

The advantages are an unscaled image, proper scanlines to add definition, zero lag, and the ability to use light guns. Also, some developers utilized the flaws in CRT technology to pull off visual tricks that never translate correctly to LCD screens.

>>676519
hey man there's no need for that sort of posting in /vr/

>>676518
Of course everything looks sharp on an LCD when you are used to all the n3xt-g3n cutting 3dge games.

>>676527
>The advantages are an unscaled image

It is scaled though. The bigger the CRT, the bigger the image. If you've seen the really big stuff like 36" sets, the scanlines are as thick as my thumb.

>proper scanlines to add definition

I have one Dell 17" monitor and when you run it in modes above 640x480, there's no lines visible. Horse crap.

>zero lag

XRGB boxes exist for a reason you know

>and the ability to use light guns

That only affects 5% of games and you can always keep a little 13" CRT set for them

>>676548
>It is scaled though. The bigger the CRT, the bigger the image

I think what he means is that it's scaled 1.1 because CRTs don't have fixed pixels

>>676527
>proper scanlines to add definition

how does this work? Surely having specific pixels gives you a much more defined image

>>676548

>It is scaled though.

You don't understand what the word "scaled" means in this context. A CRT generates the same number of lines, no matter what size the screen. An LCD has a fixed resolution, and thus must stretch and squish the image until it fits.

>I have one Dell 17" monitor and when you run it in modes above 640x480, there's no lines visible.

The fact that your PC monitor doesn't display visible scanlines in high resolution is completely irrelevant. My point was that CRT's are capable of generating proper scanlines, which are good things. Even if some TV's don't have noticeable scanlines, that doesn't mean that CRT's aren't the only sets capable of them.

>XRGB boxes exist for a reason you know

Not needed if you just use the proper products.

>That only affects 5% of games

It's a 5% that I would like to play regularly. Don't brush off hundreds of games like that.

>you can always keep a little 13" CRT set for them

Or you could just keep a larger CRT around and use it for everything retro. It seems like you're going out of your way to use an inferior product at this point.

>>676548
>in modes above 640x480
yfw retro consoles are 240p

>>676556

Scanlines help to break up pixel art such that the colors don't all run into each other. No TV can generate perfectly sharp edges; without scanlines, the edges just look blurry, and characters/text looks blocky. Scanlines help to create sharp edges that clearly define when one color ends and the next begins.

See this demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vscKaVByjRU#t=265s

>>676606
I have two CRT TVs at the moment. One is from the late 70s and the other from the mid-90s and neither produces distinct scanlines unless you're like 1 inch from the screen.

>>676619

>>676619

Okay...

My suggestion would be for you to go buy one that displays visible scanlines. It will make your games look a lot better.

>>676583
>Or you could just keep a larger CRT around and use it for everything retro
Maybe he doesn't even have the space for your 300 pound Brontosaurus monitors.

>>676627
Great. I will just head down to Target and...oh sorry, it's 2013. I can't buy a new CRT anymore.

>>676636
That's clearly some RGB setup. No NES with composite output will look that clear.

>>676631

My 24" CRT weighs about 60 lbs and sits nicely on my desk. Honestly, if you can't even make a little space for retro games, can you really call it your hobby? If you can't call it your hobby, what are you doing on this board?

>>676642
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=CRT%20monitor

>>676642

Okay troll. Try Goodwill, craigslist, garage sales, street curbs, etc.

>>676658

So mod your NES for RGB output. This is your hobby, right?

I don't get CRT hipsters. Why does anyone care if Anon chooses to play games on an HDTV? It's his business to do so? These guys are needlessly aggressive and hostile.

It's like the equivalent of being on that robot site and being downvoted en masse if you disagree with the mob.

>>676631
>300 pound Brontosaurus monitors
Unless you have one of sony XRB models, which would be terrible for retro games anyway, it's not going to be 300lb.

A 25' model would at most be 100lb, and that's for professional sets; consumer models would be even lighter.

>>676658
S-Video on gamecube via Animal Crossing

>>676662
Going through the trouble of getting a playchoice10 ppu is a bit much, don't you think?

>>676662
Not him, but dot crawl is part of the NES graphics aesthetic. Nobody back in the day played those games on RGB. In fact they usually had some shitty 80s TV with RF hookups.

>>676670

>come into a CRT thread
>talk about HDTVs
>get schooled
>WAAH WHY CANT YOU JUST LEAVE ME ALONE

If you want to play on an HDTV, go right ahead. Just don't come into a CRT thread and start shit.

>>676682
>S-Video on gamecube via Animal Crossing
Ok then that's not even a real NES, just a Gamecube

>>676690

>Nobody back in the day played those games on RGB. In fact they usually had some shitty 80s TV with RF hookups.

Why would I ever care about this? I'm interested in getting the best picture possible, not emulating what it was like to play games in the 80's.

>>676693
I'm not the same guy you were arguing with. I was just pointing out that these threads are like being downvoted on Ribbit.

>>676725
Then you admit to being a hipster

I would gladly still buy a new CRT if I could, but fuck you entire TV industry and fuck you government for forced DTV.

>>676735

Wanting the best image quality makes me a hipster? If that's what the word "hipster" means, then sure, I am the hipsteriest hipster in hipster town.

>>676738
Don't get it. Why can't we still at least get CRT computer monitors? Those weren't affected by the DTV switch

>>676741
At the cost of authenticity. You may as well just use an HDTV.

>>676743
CRT monitors and TVs were made in the same factories. Once one went, the other had to follow. Also CRTs aren't suited for HDMI signals.

>>676735
I don't really think quality is the hallmark of a hipster and I don't think CRTs are exactly a fad either

>>676731
Yeh it's not even polite disagreement like "Oh well I disagree with you, but if you use an HDTV, Allah bless you." It's more like /v/-level flaming.

>>676758

>You may as well just use an HDTV.

No... an HDTV provides worse picture quality than a CRT for retro games. Have you even read this thread?

>>676709
I never said it was; It's just a good picture to show off scanlines.

>>676725
>>676758
And now we start the cycle again.

>>676738
Yeah, that shit pisses me off. Can't get any signal without buying a damn receiver/converter box. I'd be happy if I could just get the news.

>>676758

>Also CRTs aren't suited for HDMI signals.

Full retard.

>>676769

This is what people say when they realize they've been wrong for a long time.

"I know I'm wrong, but you don't have to be mean about it. I mean, if I want to be wrong, that should be okay, right?"

>>676769
That's not the problem. In these threads, it's not even acceptable enough to say that you have a CRT, if it's not the right, approved kind, the mob goes after you.

Like if I used one of those portable TV/VHS combo sets, I'm going to get roasted on a spit here.

>>676778
Technically they can, and they can use ATSC signals, but it was not bothered with for cost reasons.

>>676782

This is 4chan. We don't accept plebs and casuals. You can wallow in your circlejerk threads full of 18 year olds reminiscing about Super Mario 3 on just about any other website.

>>676775
>And now we start the cycle again

These threads are cancer and should be moved to /g/.

>>676787

There exist consumer CRT TV's with HDMI inputs.

>>676795
Are you Squidding me? This board has the most casual plebians ever. Nonstop Doom/Zelda circlejerks while if you discuss, say, Apple II games, you get two replies per thread.

>>676807

Then let's work to improve that, not go backwards.

>>676798
For about 5 minutes in 2003 they existed

>>676782
No, but if you're using RF, it will be suggested that you at least use composite.

>>676796
>These threads are cancer
No, but they sure do attract a shitload of shitposters.

>>676815
>any new CRTs
>still around
Huh?

>>676795
>You can wallow in your circlejerk threads full of 18 year olds
Projecting much?

>>676809

Nope they didn't just poof out of existence. They're still around.

>>676778
But it's true, unless there is a good DAC in the CRT, you might as well just use analog.
Thing is, I don't know any CRTs with good DACs, because they all go through frequency doubling and other laggy bullshit instead.

>>676816
Like I said, cost reasons. RGB is the native format that color CRTs use while LCDs nativly use a digital type of signal.

>>676821

You're right, all the HDMI CRT's they made have disintegrated. A real shame.

>>676825

RGB isn't a format. It can be analog or digital.

>>676827
If you can point me to any manufacturer who still produces them, be my guest

>>676782
Those sets are pretty shitty, but I got attacked the other day for having a Wega HDTV setup.

>>676837

I said that you're right. Once a product is no longer manufactured, all the ones that were already manufactured simply fizzle out of existence.

>>676758
>>676735
This same guy has been trolling the CRT threads for the last few days. Just ignore him please.

>>676843

>attacked

doubt.jpg

>>676837
We're talking about CRTs that can be had for less than pennies on the dollar. People who want the best possible experience out of their SNES should go it and scare up a CRT that has SVideo on it, and some brands are better than others.

/vr/ deserves to know this before all the decent CRTs dry up or start to go up in price again.

>>676837
The big thing I object to with CRTs is that the electron guns have a finite lifespan and there's no way to fix them when they go.

>>676858
Everything has a finite lifespan. God CRTs are rated at least 30,000 hours and they have functional lifespans on average of more than twice that. I still use an RCA tv that I bought new in 1989 and used practically all day every day from then until 2002

I don't have a problem with CRTs, but the edgy hipsters in these threads have ruined it to the point where I can't like them.

>>676865
>I still use an RCA tv that I bought new in 1989

It doesn't count if you're two years old and your dad bought it at Service Merchanside

If you've been on sites where people restore tube-era TVs from the 50s-60s, this is a big problem not being able to repair bad electron guns. The last guy who did it closed his shop recently and he only fixed certain select CRTs/

>>676868

How big of a faggot must you be to accept an inferior experience because you're worried about what people think of you.

>>676871
>>676868
Anyone else think posting "edgy" or "hipster" should result in an autoban?

>>676868

dat rationalization
dat projecting
dat damage control
dat insecurity

>>676879
dat projecting your insecurity onto him

The best way to troll these threads is post a picture of a game running on an HDTV. Like throwing a match into gasoline.

This thread has essentially just become the "cool" kids calling everyone else nerds.

>>676865
>I still use an RCA tv that I bought new in 1989 and used practically all day every day from then until 2002

Does it count if you were two years old and your dad bought it at Service Merchandise?

If you've been on sites where guys restore tube era TVs from the 50s-60s, it's a big problem that they can't fix bad electron guns. Only one guy still did it and he closed his shop recently, and even then he only restored certain select tubes he deemed worth his time.

>>676872
I bought it at Sears with paper route money. I was 12

>>676905
goddamn you must be one old fuck if you were 12 in 1989

>>676919

Ya bro 36 is fuckin ancient brah
hes old enuff 2 be my dad dude XD

>>676919
>Complex maths

>>676923
>being over 20
>still using 4chan

>>676927
Relax. The poor guy is a wizard anyway. It's not nice to pick on him.

>>676927
gb2b

>>676930
I kind of doubt he's really in his 30s given the poor grammar and spelling in his post.

>>676932
they don't let you trip on /b/

>>676930
0/10

>>676919
Fuck you /v/ faggots. This board is where us oldfags go to not be near you.

>>676968
ah jeez not this shit again

>>676968
You are as big a faggot as he is if you actually believe that.

>>674076
another picture from when I was playing today.

>>677337
well shit, I forgot to upload it.

>>676606
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vscKaVByjRU#t=265s

bad example of scanlines, VERY BAD EXAMPLE, FAKE SCANLINES

>>677350

They still look better than no scanlines.

Playing 240p retro games on any HDTV is just like playing FLAC with $2 headphones.

>>675928

Here's a better picture of my set-up

>>677402
Problem solved

>>677428
>Spending hundreds of dollars on a placebo when you can pick up a decent CRT for $20 if not for free.

>mfw I just picked up a 20M4U for [/spoiler ]free [/spoiler]

>>677867
Must feel good, man.

>>677902
I just need to get a power supply and I'm all set for the most part. Then I just have to make some RGB cables.

>>677457
My uncle paid a couple hundred bucks for a Wega HDTV 10 years ago

>>677938
>I just need to get a power supply
What do you mean? It uses a standard PC power cable.

Is the monitor's actual power supply damaged or something?

>>677420
My nigger companion. One day we shall know the peace from these PVM scanline elitists.

>>677975
No I meant the cable, It didn't come with one so I just need to pick one up quick.

>>677987
Well, that should be simple enough. I see piles of them at pretty much any second hand store I go to.

>>677982
Not all of us are elitists.

>>678008

>>678008
I think i have an old PC in my garage I'm just too lazy to look at the moment.

>>678034
i lold

>>677982
My dad got an RCA 27" in 1994 (I was a little kid then). He chose it over the Trinitrons because better black level. I always considered it an excellent retro game TV.

>>678008
>gardevoir figurine

Why is (s)he so perfect, 4chan?

>>677982
I have nothing against CRTs, but those PVM elitists are cancer

>>678080
>(s)he
Now where did I put those pictures.

>>678074
In fact he even knew some guys at work who said the same thing. That Thomson sets of the period had better blacks than Trinitrons.

Thomson had some pretty excellent quality picture tubes, but the supporting circuitry was junk

>>678136
Can anyone explain what's the deal with Trinitrons?

>>678114
What pictures, anon-kun?

>>678149
They use an aperture grille instead of a shadow mask. It's like a wire screen that allows more of the electron beam's energy to hit the phosphor and produce a brighter, sharper picture,

Shadow masks are just piece of sheet metal with holes punched in it and some energy is lost because the electron beam doesn't go all the way through them.

>>678149
Sony just happened to make pretty damn good CRTs. Aperture Grille based CRTs are brighter and usually have sharper images than shadowmask based CRTs. That's why Trinitrons are often suggested when people ask about what CRTs to get.

It'd be nice if I could find a nice RGB capable shadowmask CRT here in murrika.

>>678145
>anon-kun
Don't play dumb with me, "THOSE" type of pictures.

>>678163
The loss of sharpness actually makes for some fine picture, since you're less to notice actual pixel patterns and the image looks overall smooth.

>>678180
here in murrika, without having to steal one from an arcade machine*

>>678180
post them

>>678190
No

>>678182
Shadow masks soften the image and produce more of the characteristic CRT "look" than aperture grille

Sony's patent on the Trinitrons expired in the mid-90s, so you began seeing aperture grille displays from other manufacturers at that point.

>>678202
tripfaggot being a faggot general

>>678180
>It'd be nice if I could find a nice RGB capable shadowmask CRT here in murrika

Any old PC monitor?

>>678180

How did Valve miss the opportunity to have an "Aperture Grille" in a food court somewhere in Portal 2

>>678210
Yotsuba B

>>678214
>Any old PC monitor?
Takes a 31.2khz signall

Unless I could find a Multisync NEC, that wouldn't work.

>>678227
That's actually a good question. Would have been a neat little pun, or something.

>>678234
>Unless I could find a Multisync NEC, that wouldn't work.

I think he's talking about Commodore monitors.

>>678241
How did I not think of that?

>>678248
>>678234
I meant VGA PC monitors. You can buy a scanline doubler to step 15Khz up to 31Khz.

>>678259
>You can buy a scanline doubler
I'm not interested in scalers; I'd like something native if at all possible. Otherwise I could just use the Dell CRT I have sitting on my desk right now.

Time to hope a Commodore monitor pops up on craigslist or something.

Which models should I look out for, and what would be a good price for them?

>>678259
Except they use dot-triangle, not shadowmask. Also don't they already run on 31kHz? I thought 15kHz was TV territory.

>>678259
Dreamcast famously supports VGA because it was the first console to output 480p

Ah! A CRT thread!
Help me /vr/ you are my only hope.

My Trinitron has gone to shit. 1800x1440 @ 85 hz, arguably better than the "HD" flatscreen I have and a really good pixel pitch. Not the best CRT ever made, but pretty damned good. I would really like to repair this thing. It has two major issues. The first was a blue zig-zag down the screen. It scales with the picture/resolution, so it seems the beam is consistently sweeping an errant path after each refresh. The second issue developed after that, it's gotten horribly fuzzy. I can't describe it other than that I can't seem to tune it into focus with any settings.

It's also developed the infamous brightness issue this series of monitor suffered from, but I think I can fix it with some guides and old posts I've found.

I'm kind of hesitant with opening up a CRT though, being potentially dangerous.

As I understand it there are a couple of screws inside I can adjust that may help with the focus. Is there anything else? But I don't know about the zig-zag down the screen. I can't take a pic at the moment, but it just looks like a blue high-frequency-high-amplitude sine wave down the vertical center of my screen. Is there a particular part that can fail that would cause this?

>>678284
>Except they use dot-triangle, not shadowmask

Most computer monitors are shadow mask

>Also don't they already run on 31kHz? I thought 15kHz was TV territory

15Khz is NTSC frequency which is what the scan line doubler is for.

Also Commodore RGB monitors (the ones meant for Amigas) use separated sync so you still can't use them with most consoles unless you have a box to separate the sync pulses.

>>678305
>The second issue developed after that, it's gotten horribly fuzzy. I can't describe it other than that I can't seem to tune it into focus with any settings
It has bad caps. Beware: These things have _really_ nasty voltage that will fuck you

>>678307
>Most computer monitors are shadow mask
Yeah, in the 80's, made for early ibms who used composite output. But I don't think there are actual VGA monitors with shadowmask.

>>678313
Fuck. I would have to identify said bad capacitors or just replace all of them. Sounds like that would be the issue too, it's about 13 or 14 years old now.

Not sure if it is worth it, but fuck was that monitor expensive back in the day.

I have my old CRT in my closet.

It hasn't been turned on for years. I wonder if it still works.

>>678327
Of course they're all shadow mask except after the mid 90s when you had more aperture grille displays. I have a Dell monitor from 1999 and it's still SM.

>>678305
>The first was a blue zig-zag down the screen. It scales with the picture/resolution
Maybe something to do with the vertical retrace?

>>678327
A quick search on google seems to say that my PC CRT(Dell E770) uses a shadowmask

>>678327
>Yeah, in the 80's, made for early ibms who used composite output

Apple always used Trinitrons on their computers until moving to LCDs in the 2000s

>>678351
>when you had more aperture grille displays
>aperture grille

Please stahp, I had all bunches of different monitors from the early 90' to the early 2000's and they were ALL like this. I also checked every monitor I came into sight and even they all had a this triangle dot pattern. Maybe they were only sold in America, I don't know. That's pretty cheap from them, if that's the case.

Now that you mentioned it earlier, doesn't VGA also have separate sync? He would have to buy the separator for it too.

>>678370
That was because they had a partnership with Sony for years and years. The latter for example made those infamous iBook batteries that caught fire.

>>678385
That just refers to how the phosphor is arranged, not the shadow mask. CRTs can have either round dots or phosphor strips.

>>678395
Then the point becomes moot since it will never look like a proper shadowmask TV as seen in

>>674238
>>675928
>>677420
>>677982

>>678395
All aperture grille tubes have phosphor strips, but shadow mask CRTs may use either. It seems more common to use strips on TVs and dot triads on monitors.

>>678407
>Then the point becomes moot since it will never look like a proper shadowmask TV as seen in

there's no such thing as a "proper" shadow mask TV. The shadow mask is just the piece of metal with holes punched in it that the electron beam goes through. You can arrange the phosphor any way you like.

>>678423
Well then I hope Kyadash (sorry for calling you by name, but it would be too stupid for my brain pretending you don't have a name) is an expert CRT engineer and he can rearrange phosphor to look like shadow mask TV's because I think he must be pretty good at it.

>>678445
This post is so dumb that I'm not even going to bother properly replying to it

>>678452
I don't know, it made me giggle.

Also, my camera apparently doesn't want to take a good picture of my e770.

640x480 for "bigger pixels"

>>678452
Whoah Anon you sure know your shit man you're so cool I could never compete please teach me how to turn >>678385 into pic related because you make it sound like it's too easy man you're so smart.

>>678469
CRTs don't have "pixels"

>>678469
At this point we're just being trolled, so we will now end this discussion

>>678473
Lemme explain again so you stupid /v/-tards will get it.

You said in >>678423 that "You can arrange the phosphor any way you like", implying that I the guy owning the CRT can open the thing up and rearrange the phosphor any way.

>>678482
Ok I get it. You totally misinterpreted the context of his post because you're either that dumb or that much of a troll.