/vr/ - Retro Games

>>6556184
I've never really thought about it before but Neo Geo essentially means 'New Earth'.

>>6556230
The shiro saturn is nice. But I always liked the Victor model myself.

>>6556240
pure mid late 90s aesthetics. This is cool

>>6556240
>>6556242
I miss see through shells.

For me it's the famicom. Those sleek curves and color scheme.

>>6556268
>Two foot cord

>>6556248
That's commercial trash

Anyone has any other cool shots of PC-Engine CD?

>>6556338
Superior

>>6556372
>>6556184
what did I miss

>>6556248
The fuck, were PS controller cords always this chode?

>>6556385
Your genesis appears to have two tumors

>>6556392
IT'S NOT A TUMAH!

>>6556184
Fuck you

>>6556243
>see through shells
this was one of the coolest designs. I love my clear gb pocket and n64 controllers.
>tfw no clear pc engine controller

>>6556243
You know why transparent casings were a thing, right? Cost reduction.

>>6556272
in japan people usually sit on the floor, with the tv and console close to them, so that cord was fine. the pc engine cord was the same. It's fucking awful if you wanna sit more than 2 feet away though, and the controllers aren't even removable either, so no extension cords.

>>6556414
JAMIE! DON'T WALK AWAY FROM YAH FATHAH!

The king.

>>6556501
No hucards no buy

>>6556230
>>6556232
>>6556240
Justice for PAL unit
>kuro

>>6556389
no, the photo just edits out most of the cable

>>6556504
Are you retarded?

>>6556389
Yes. Ergonomically made for the average $ony mutant.

>>6556662
Dat sexy volume slider

>>6556504
Know your place, peasant.

>>6556184

>>6556928
The model 1 us controller is an abomination

>>6557129
Still looks cool though

>>6557129
I preferred it as a kid. I thought the Japanese controller looked gay. I eventually switched because the US controller's L and R buttons are dogshit.

>>6556184
I love the 80s hifi rack aesthetic
>Not a console
If the cdi is a console so is this.

Shane that the Americans got the Lego brick.

>>6557720
Both are aesthetic as fuck, though.

Logan's Run inspired AV Famicom, with dog bone controller.

>>6556501
looks like a cheap printer

>>6557732
lol

>>6557732
American version looks nicer

>Noone has posted the N64 yet

What the fuck? I always thought the N64 is one of the most beautiful consoles of all time with its sleek organic curved form

>>6557803
>Noone has posted the N64 yet

Honestly its because its reminiscent of a hot chick with an ugly pussy and big clitoris. The controller is dogshit from a purely aesthetic standpoint

>>6557753
It doesn't even have a look, it's just an uninspired lump of grey plastic.

>>6557741
lol indeed, those who don't own both NTSC models.
>>6557753
I actually think it has a classier look than the SFC, more in line with what people consider "a e s t h e t i c", the SFC is rounder and has the 4-color clover on the corner which makes it more "toy like" in my opinion, but both are pretty damn good looking consoles and honestly depending on my mood, I do prefer the SFC a lot of the time. And the clover is iconic as fuck anyway, I love it and would never want it removed.

>>6557803
Nintendo in general is not seen as "cool", which if fine.
I do love the N64 design. The charcoal black plastic always looks good, and I love that curved part on the front, as some other anon said once, it looks like the front of a classic vintage car.

>>6556662
Apart from the ugly the Genesis logo...

>>6556230
>>6556240
I do own a white saturn controller and it's a nice novelty but honestly never liked the color scheme. The pink buttons are very distracting.
>>6556232
This is the undisputed king of aesthetic systems, with the american model 2 after it. US Model 2 is basically the white Saturn, but all black. I prefer it to the US model 1 for a simple reason (other than the obvious controller): the "SEGA" logo placement is much better on white/model 2 than on the model 1, however gray Saturn is still the sexiest, wish I had one, I only have US Saturn model 2.

>>6557815
lol

>>6557832
Right? Imagine those lunatics who don't own both lol.

>>6557836
Why the hell would you want both when flash carts exist?

Even the US cartridge design is fucking hideous.

The only redeemable feature that the US system has is that you can easily mod it into a universal NTSC machine.

>>6556210
That is an interesting observation

>>6557842
Flashcarts? I already own all the games I want for the US SNES, have since the early 00s.
And japanese games are (mostly) cheap. I don't lack space at my place so it's fine having stuff. I haven't bought vidya in a while though.
Also I'm not into gore.
I still fail to see what makes the US SNES so "omg uglyyy!", even if it's not a favorite of yours, I don't see what's so hideous about it. But subjectivities, I guess. US carts do have end labels, though, that's an objective improvement (even though I'm not really bothered by the SFC's lack of)

>>6557843
>>6556210
NEO GEO was taken from a Ryuichi Sakamoto album of the same name.

>>6556248
Best retro console.

>>6557857
zoom zoom

>>6556248
>>6556531
>>6556918

>>6557882

>Everyone can use it by doing the swap trick

What a shit security system

>>6556486
you say that like it's a bad thing

P.S. jails still purchase and sell transparent electronics to make sure inmates aren't hiding anything inside, get yourself a cool clear plastic CRT today from an inmate yardsale! ;)

>>6556932
>>6557972
This is still the most based Dreamcast, prove me wrong.

>>6558131
Not retro fuck off

>>6558137
Kill yourself retard

>>6558138
Not retro.

>>6558143
Nothing on this board is "retro", you illiterate bootlicking dunce.

>>6558143
It is when you play ps1 games.

>>6558150
Stay mad. Not retro.

>>6558161
I'm not mad at all lmao. I'll just keep posting Gen stuff whether you like it or not. Stay retarded.

>>6558164
You think you're triggering people like me with it when really it's a fun way to make shitty posters like you keep yourself busy getting banned and possibly evading. Never sad to see you go.

>>6558164
Nooooo don't post off topic shit and get banned. We will miss you so much!

>>6558170
I'm not trying to trigger people unless you for good reason. I usually won't go around starting new threads about 6th/7th Gen stuff unless I feel like getting your panties in a knot. I just caually post stuff in threads like this, and your autistic ass goes bananas.

>>6558174
You're the one posting off-topic shit. The PS2 is an old console whether you like it or not. And as the other anon said, it can be used to play PS1 games, which are considered "retro". So yeah :p

>>6558175
Not retro
>casually
Fuck off and read the rules you worthless fucking casual. All you've accomplished is driving the thread further off topic with your britfag wanker attitude. Your posts are not retro game related and they are off topic.

>>6558180
PS2 is retro. Accept it, socially retarded autist. ;)

>>6558178
Nobody cares what you played your used copy of Spyro the Dragon on when you were a wee little zoomer. It's not retro. Bye.

>>6558178
Not retro

>>6558183
Not retro

>>6558185

>>6558186
Not retro

>>6558186
Not retro

>>6558184

>>6558195
Not retro

>>6558195
Not retro

>>6557815
>toy like
this is why they made the gray bricks for the NES/SNES american design, same with those awful "realistic" covers, to americans feel more mature or something like that.
pretty pathetic mindset in my opnion.

>>6558187
>>6558189
>>6558197
>>6558201
Not retro

>>6558203
I didn't think the American SNES looked more mature at all. I disliked the design quite a bit and it's part of the reason I chose the Sega Genesis over it as a child. As an adult I'm getting more into SNES games but I bought a Super Famicom instead of that boxy abomination.

What does the MVS offer over the AES aside from aesthetics?

>>6558247
Correction, what does the AES offer over the MVS aside from aesthetics?

So anyway

>>6557887
it's contemporaries;
- saturn: also a swap trick
- dreamcast: bootdisc followed by completely self-booting games
- megacd: lol

the n64's best protection was that carts were fucking expensive to produce, unfortunately this also protected it from games being released on it

>>6558503
N64 was attacked the same way all cartridge systems were, copiers. You could copy games to zip disks with one and load them from the zip disks obviously or from CD-Rs. Since the N64 dev hardware was so expensive some companies actually used the piracy hardware to dev games instead of buying it.

>>6558635
yea i know they were a thing, but obviously not as convenient as burning a cd
i knew plenty of people with burned discs, but nobody with a cartridge emulator

>>6557860
I’ll take your insult. At least I am not delusional about pieces of shit.

itt I learned that every single retro console in history was aesthetic

>>6557129
I didn’t know there was a different one until recently.

>>6558208
I didn’t think people cared this much about a console’s looks.

>>6557129
there's a different one? that one in the picture looks the same as the only one i've used

>>6558817
>A Sony focus group found that teenage boys would not admit to owning a SNES rather than a Genesis.
It mattered a lot in the 90s.

>>6558860
That doesn't mention the design of the system, though.
Also, is there a source on that? Also focus groups are never trust-worthy. Reminds of when Hideki Kamiya was told that american kids thought Viewtiful Joe wasn't cool and he said "fuck it, let's make it even more cartoony"

>>6558860
If Sony were told that, why did they stil the PlayStation more similar to SNES in terms of color and even logo design (Super Famicom logo) instead of black like the Genesis?

>>6558871
>^ Kent, Steven L. (2001). The Ultimate History of Video Games: The Story Behind the Craze that Touched our Lives and Changed the World. Roseville, California: Prima Publishing. p. 449. ISBN 0-7615-3643-4.
Per Wikipedia. They were obviously onto something because the Genesis outsold the SNES until the last 2 years of the 4th gen. Sony following more in Sega's footsteps than Nintendo's was a great choice too. The Saturn outsold the N64 in Japan and we know what happened with the Playstation.

>>6558860
i'm a bit out of the loop here. my understanding was the genesis could process way more, because the rest of its hardware was inferior to snes, and so yeah. and the snes was slower but had better hardware. games library was a matter of preference. don't know much about them. i barely played any games from that gen, at the time. played a few on emulator in 2005.

teen boys in 90s were ashamed of snes? it's kinda ugly and genesis was sleeker, but aint that just appearances?

>>6558879
>Kent
Ah, I never trusted this guy much.
I think Sony did take Sega's western marketing into account (and elevated it to higher levels), but the Saturn outselling the N64 in Japan is a bit of a weird card to pull out, N64 also sold more software then Saturn in Japan.
Still, it's not mentioning anything about the actual aesthetic design, and I agree with this anon: >>6558874
Sony didn't went blacked until PS2.

>>6558874
It wasn't just about the look of the console but the marketing. The American SNES was a kiddie looking console with marketing to match. That combo wasn't quite up to snuff for the edgy early 90s. When Sony entered the market they realized that having more mature themes in their games while making their device still look like a non threatening children's toy wasn't a bad idea.

>>6558880
Honestly the true strength of the SNES is being able to be augmented by expansion chips in carts. Both consoles are a bit underwhelming as is. We talk about them because people made great games on them not because they were technical marvels.

>>6558880
>teen boys in 90s were ashamed of snes? it's kinda ugly and genesis was sleeker, but aint that just appearances?
It had nothing to do with the console design, it had to do with the fact Mortal Kombat 1 on SNES didn't have blood (on Genesis you had to input a code to unlock blood, but it was there). MKII eventually came out on SNES and the blood was there, but the image of SNES being more family-friendly was already stablished in westerners' minds.
I still never met anyone IRL back then who said "no, I don't want to play SNES because it's not cool", I remember kids just wanting to play video games, no matter the system, and both SNES and Genesis was the best era of video games, so...

>>6556248
Looks like cheap chink shit.

>>6558665
With a v64 or CD64 it's literally as convenient as burning a CD. And since you can fit dozens of games on a single disc even more convenient.
>cartridge emulator
But I like the way you think. Yes, that's exactly what these devices, flash carts, etc are.

>>6559097
i thought you might say that, but what i meant was that with a psx you /only/ needed to burn a cd
that is, literally all you need is;
- a playstation
- any original bootable disc (even a demo)
- a game burned on a cd-r
and you can do a swaptrick to run it
my point being that you didn't need extra hardware. of course, once you had one then it was cheap and convenient to use cd-r's, zip disks, or floppies, and especially with cd-r's, you also had the bonus of multiple games per disc (though i mean, picking out a game from a spindle of cd-r's is no less convenient than picking one out of an on-screen list, it was more convenient than doing a swaptrick, granted, though if you didn't want to do that, a psx modchip was still a fairly cheap option, too)

>>6559097
-- oh, also, i would have just said flash cart, but we're talking about classical devices which didn't tend to use flash as a storage medium, so i had to go with a more generic name

>>6557882
Why is there a toilet inside a fridge

>>6557853
Neat. Which reminds me that Koneko Monogatari (aka Milo & Otis) had a Famicom game, but it uses none of the great Ryuichi Sakamoto score. Just an original beep and bloop OST that's as awful as everything else in the game.

>>6559458

It's the cirlcle of liiiiffe

>>6559603
Because the playstation looks like the end of the cycle

>>6557732
american snes might be the ugliest console ever ever made until the first ps3

>>6560010
I don't see it, what's so ugly about it?
It's actually one of my favorite-looking ones.
I think a lot of the anti-US SNES sentiment is merely an EU vs USA thing... but I'm not even from USA or Europe, so whatever, I'm not into your silly inter-anglo wars.

>>6560010
Not by a long shot.

>>6560045
It's probably more to do with the fact that barely any thought went into the design. It looks like NoA didn't give a shit and just decided decided to go with some half arsed prototype design.

>>6560389
>It's probably more to do with the fact that barely any thought went into the design. It looks like NoA didn't give a shit and just decided decided to go with some half arsed prototype design.
That's false though

>>6556230
>>6556232
>>6556240
>>6556928

>>6558635
I remember a friend of mine had a zip disc thingy for his n64. Zip discs were only a thing that anyone cared about for a little while after that, CD-R and CD-RW basically eliminated them.

>>6556210
I literally just realized this in the shower either today or yesterday, weird.

>>6556268
This is the best looking console. The colour scheme is great and it looks fun and ready to play with the controllers sitting on it

>>6560579
NOT RETRO

>>6556184
Best handheld console coming through

why am i a sucker for colored buttons on retro controllers?

>inb4cuzurafaggot

>>6559116
In that case the word you're looking for is "cheap", not "convenient". Can't dispute that. A v64 with 256m cost ~$600 in 1996.

>>6560389
I don't see it, I like its angular design and I think the light gray/purple color scheme works pretty well (kinda reminds me of the Yotsuba B scheme, actually).
I can think of many, many other systems that could easily be said to be among the worst designed, or hideous, US SNES wouldn't even come to mind, I don't see what could possibly be considered ugly about it, unless you're against consoles that aren't colored black, but then you'd also have to hate the PS1, Dreamcast, etc.

>>6560760
yea, fair enough

I still think the NES looks sharp, even if the front-loader design is functionally inferior.

>>6556230
*yellows*

>>6557803
There's a reason why no one posted their N64. And I have one too.

>>6562176
>no one posted the N64
Well, the anon you replied to did. I like the N64's design a lot, too.

>>6562159
I have two neither have yellowed even a little bit, but I keep them in the original plastic and boxes out of the sunlight

I wanted this so bad as a kid, even though I never played a TG16 game up to that point.

>>6562247
Could that output to tv like the nomad?

>>6562251
Not without modding, but it had a TV tuner that you could mount on it, similar to the Game Gear. Not quite what you were asking but TV related.

>>6562258
That will never work since tv is digital now

>>6562258
>>6562498
Cable TV ready (channels 2-13) once upon a time. Also added an A/V input.

>>6562513
It would have been cheaper to pick up a free crt off of craigslist

>>6562517
Craigslist didn't exist then. I used this when I was grounded and my parents took away my TV.

1/2

>>6562535
2/2

>>6556383
>>6562535
That's nice, but for me, it's still the OG DMG Game Boy.
Pocket is also pretty good looking.
>>6562538
Come on anon, you know the rules.

>>6557625
That doesn't look decades old

>>6562535
GBC is so goddamn comfy

>>6562549
Game Boy Advance could play Game Boy and Game Boy Color games, so fuck you, it's no different than people talking about their emulators or their Nintendo Switch Virtual Console shit. it's more retro than that stuff.

>>6562830
also half the first party GBA library was remade or slightly changed SNES games.

>>6556184

>>6562809
>Pokemon RBY/GSC
>Link's Awakening DX
>Oracle of Seasons/Ages
>Super Mario Bros DX
Game Boy Color was the peak of handheld videya games

just make /v2k/ already, I'm tired of this stupid fucking argument about games and systems that are two decades old now

>>6560889
Probably an American thing, after all it was specifically designed for that market.

>>6562854
good games, but not aesthetic at all. it looks like a random cheapo DVD player.
>which is why it was so successful, most normies bought it to play DVDs, and it was cheaper than most standalone DVD players, and it also played games

>>6562907
It was also the best console of all time, Taylor.

>>6564087
and would ruin video games forever

>>6564092
ps2, anon, not xbox 360

>>6564096
the ruination started at ps1

>>6564097
oh, you just don't like the playstation/sony

>>6564102
I mean you cant really deny it.
Companies that don't make games shouldn't make consoles. Look what sony would go on to do to the industry. consoles that play dvds were a mistake. i cant believe people tolerate blu-ray monopoly

>>6564107
>consoles that play dvds were a mistake.
and playing music cd's was ok? that existed before the playstation

>>6564113
not really but that change in 6th gen is what moved consoles away from being dedicated hardware

>>6564068
>>6556248
>>6556385
>>6556419
>>6556924
>>6556938
>>Aesthetic

>>6557732
US version is the ugliest console ever.

>>6564470
Still don't see what's so ugly about it. Looks pretty good to me, as does the Super Famicom.

>>6564483
No where as good looking as the super famicom. It looks like who ever designed it was using legos

>>6562901
We didn't really go for it though. It was outsold by the Sega Genesis until the last couple of years of it's lifespan. They also released this during the time it was actually outselling the Genesis.

>>6566043
Snes was way more popular than genesis segafag

>>6560579
that ripple effect on the top is unironically beautiful however i cant see it being used on something that isnt a kids toy

>>6556248
Very overrated design
>>6556918
Pretty good but next time don't post one that's dirty
>>6557625
Very nice, a shame that the hardware isn't as great
>>6557732
burger one looks like shit, the jp/eu ones would look great if it didn't have the ugly grey color scheme
>>6557803
It looks like cheap chink plastic, worls apart from the SNES. Gamecube was also the same horrendous shit
>>6560068
nice meme

>>6560492
>They thought about making it even worse, but then decided it was bad enough.

>>6566053
In 95 and 96 maybe. I am biased towards Sega but legit console warring is for fags like you. The Sega CD, 32x, and basically everything they did after combined with the expansion chips in SNES carts pushing the system further without bullshit addons caused them to fall far behind. Those dumbass moves are a big part of why they aren't making consoles anymore. Retailers lost faith in them and I'm sure most people that got scammed into buying that crap before the 5th gen hit did too.

>>6560492
lol, yup. Loads of work went in to that. It looks like they stopped half way through because the system was too painful to look at.

>>6558089
*proves you wrong

>>6556419
Based.
Jaguar is fucking beautiful.

>>6567004
Dafuq are those?

>>6567506
Vaporware

>>6566017
As I originally said, I think both SFC and US SNES look good.
>legos
I don't see it, but even if that was the case, that isn't an indicator of a console being ugly or not.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with not liking the US SNES design, I just think the hate it gets from some people is very hyperbolic. "Hideous"? Really don't see it.

>>6566248
>It looks like cheap chink plastic
And it absolutely isn't. N64's plastic is sturdy as fuck.

>>6556419
It's a fucking toilet

>>6567758
I imported one back in the day, thought it looked horrible then, think it looks even worse now. God knows what SoA were thinking when they just could have kept the same design as the Jap/Pal versions.

>>6567782
I just fail to see what's so "OMG UGLLYYYY!" about it like some of you say. I could kinda understand having a preference for rounder-looking consoles, maybe? But it's not like the SNES is the only system to ever have a more angular design.
Or is it the purple-grey color scheme that bothers you so much? In which case I guess it's a total subjective matter, but I really like that color scheme actually.

>>6567787
The whole thing just looks like a shitty prototype. It doesn't even look like a finished design. At least the AV Famicom has a distinct 70s Futuristic look about it.

There's nothing remotely distinctive about the US SNES design, it's just a bland block of plastic, with a bit of purple thrown in.

>>6568008
Still don't see it. "shitty" "bland block of plastic" or "looks like a prototype" aren't things that could actually be measured, seems more like subjective appreciations that could potentially be used for any console posted ITT.

Of the consoles that got re-designed in the US, I'm honestly surprised SNES is the one that gets all the shaft instead of the NES.
SNES at least keeps the same size as the original Super Famicom. NES is an oversized box and seemingly for no reason other than the old american way of thinking that "bigger = better".
It's a bit of a mystery to me why the US SNES design gets so many hateboners, yet the NES gets a pass.

>>6568035
It's simple. NES had the same design in Europe too. If Europe had a NES that looked like the Famicom, there'd be also a lot of hate for the US NES from europeans.

>>6568043
Where in Europe was NES even released? I'm from Italy, but my grandmother is from CH so I've family there as well as Germany and UK. Between those four countries, I've never once seen NES in Europe.

>>6568408
Wolf

>>6568408
The CD-i looks like absolute shit

>>6568246
Yep, PAL NES is a thing, it looks exactly like the american one afaik.

>>6568246
>CH
You sure she wasn't from HC?

>>6556385
MUSHROOM MUSHROOM

>>6556920
Ugly discman design but rare

>>6568616
>zoom zoom but zoom

>>6557825
This

>>6568021
The fact that it doesn't look like an unfinished product is pretty measurable I'd say.

If you like unfurnished shitty designs, good for you, I guess.

>>6569182
Unfinished*

>>6569182
Please enlighten us about what makes the SNES look "unfinished" compared to any of the other systems posted ITT.

>>6569212
he's saying the opposite, the SNES doesn't look like an unfinished product. I don't know what was that other guy going on about the SNES looking unfinished. Probably some european hateboner for anything different.

>>6569212
Please enlighten us about what makes the reading comprehension so hard.

>>6558248
Likes and upvotes

>>6556248
>>6556419
>>6556920
>>6560068
>>6568641
>>6568507
I said aesthetic consoles, not garbage

>>6569424
if the atari 2600 wood edition is aesthetic then leave alone the fairchild

>>6556486
>>6557972

why didnt gaming companies just release the transparent designs as the default? just always use transparent shells?
>they save money
>people think it looks cool anyway

I don't understand, and then the special editions could be the non transparent shit with designs

>>6558665
burning a cd wasnt convenient either back then.

>>6556385
the cd sidecart isn't actually that awkward but holy fuck, the 32x always looked like a joke.

>>6556924
>faux wood paneling

Sure, it looks like trash now but in the 80's that shit blended right in with everybody's cheesy-looking living rooms. Context is important.

I'll throw my hat into the ring with the Sega Mark III

>>6560706
That's not the Turbo Express, though

>>6569213
It has the look of an unfinished prototype. More so when you compare it to the Japanese and Pal models. Add in the US cart design to complete the unfinished shitty prototype look.

As explained before, at least the AV Famicom goes for a distinct 70s futuristic vibe. The US SNES is just a blocky lump of plastic with a dull uninspired colour scheme, even the US controllers look extremely bland compared to the other models.

>>6570196
Thats sexy, too bad it could pull off 3d to say its life

>>6556232
I want to have sex with this console.

>>6556338
Have sex

>>6556385
What a chad console. Absolute unit.

>>6556662

>>6570381
>cant play regular SMS games without adapter
why? and sega kept doing this stuff
is it that hard to design a console with cart clearance for the last console in mind? the hardware is already compatible just not your dumb shell

>>6572379
They kind of did it with the Saturn but then they changed their mind and made it a ram expansion slot

>>6572385
I bet they would have sold alot more if it was backwards compatible with genesis

>>6572374
Nope model 1 wins

>>6572374

>>6571381
You keep repeating that mantra, but you aren't explaining why the US SNES looks like a prototype.
Saying that the AV Famicom has a "distinct 70s futuristic vibe" isn't an explanation, by the way.
>colour
Thanks for confirming you are, indeed, an european who dislikes things that are different. That's all there is to it. Don't get me wrong, you're allowed to dislike the US SNES, I just find it strange how you may thing the US SNES is "hideous" or whatever. It looks fine, and adjectives like "bland" or "uninspired" are completely subjective on your part.

>>6556193
I love this thing's look so much. Fuck that horrid thing we got in the States

>>6556210
The name "Newgrounds" was inspired by Neo Geo too

>>6572558
Eww worst sound and video output and incompatible with all the addons

>>6572701
>only Euros spell correctly
Not him, but you do know literally every English-speaking country outside of the US (most of which are not in Europe, by the way) use the British U, right? Yes, even Canada.

>>6572892
Yeah but what are the odds that a guy who has a raging hateboner for the US SNES design is canadian instead of actually european?

>>6572724
We are talking about aesthetics, not performance.

>>6572935
Probably not as good as the likelihood that Anon is Aussie or Kiwi, I would guess.