/vr/ - Retro Games

>>6182042
>every single character you grew attached to over their long journey is dead and nothing matters
>only the absolute worst character survived
Yes that's a bad end.

>>6182042
Humanity isn't toast, just Midgar. It's a big world. This is one of the most hopeful game endings I've seen.

>>6182051
>every single character you grew attached to over their long journey is dead
So? They all had closure on their arcs, and it's not like anything is ever going to happen after the game. They may as well be dead.
>nothing matters
Patently untrue. They gave the planet a fighting chance. That was the whole point of them nutting up and confronting Sephiroth. They all were comfortable with making the sacrifice for their planet, and their planet survived because of them. Humanity was simply a cost that was paid, but even during the course of the game, the characters never say they're trying to save humanity, only the planet.
>only the absolute worst character survived
No, Yuffie died.

>>6182063
>Humanity isn't toast, just Midgar.
The ending is purposefully ambiguous, but honestly, there would be no reason for Midgar to be completely abandonned and overgrown 500 years later. Even if the planet wholesale renounced the use of Mako energy and industrialization, Midgar was still an impossibly gigantic hub of homes, businesses, and, most importantly, resources. If humanity had survived, it would have been dismantled, repurposed, or refit, and not just left to rot.

>>6182073
>, but honestly, there would be no reason for Midgar to be completely abandonned and overgrown 500 years later.

If something similar to Meteor happened here over say New York or the like, even in 500 years it wouldn't be a prime spot to be restarting things. Good soil abd water is more important than the skeletons of old buildings. There are plenty of better places for humans to focus on in the FF7 world already. Midgar is a toxic waste dump at that point, better to be left tk ve slowly reabsorbed by the planet.

>>6182106
>If something similar to Meteor happened here over say New York or the like, even in 500 years it wouldn't be a prime spot to be restarting things.
Pic related is 50 years after a fucking nuke with far more catastrophic impact results than meteor's little tornado things. If humans were still around, there's no reason midgar would be abandoned and left to rot with all of that tech and building material. Humanity is dead and nothing matters.

>>6182042
advent children was stupid, but it sounds like you're just a miserable piece of garbage

>>6182106
Midgar wasn't shown to suffer a lot of damage from Meteor, and even if it did, that only supports my argument more. Had they survived, they would have likely demolished, rebuilt or salvaged what was left rather than just abandon it.

>>6182134
Nah, just a realist. The fate of the main characters and humanity is literally not important to the game. The important part was that, in a world filled with selfishness and apathy, the heroes even fought back at all, even when they knew it might amount to nothing. They knew Sephiroth wasn't the final threat, he was just the catalyst. The characters themselves acknowledge that taking him out won't guarantee humanity's survival, but it's something they feel the need to do because humanity is responsible for Sephiroth. Compare to the motives of Shinra, who were constantly doing the wrong thing while everything mattered; meanwhile the heroes did the right thing even when it might not have mattered at all. At that point, humanity's victory had occured. Whether or not the planet decided to end mandkind was irrelevant.

And it's not even that humanity was painfully destroyed; it very much seems like they were re-absorbed into the lifestream, like Aeris was. The lifestream gave life to everything on the planet, and after years of suffering at the hands of humans, it simply redacted them. Perhaps it even recreates them at some later point. Maybe they already ARE recreated by 500 years later (hence the optimistic children's laughter), and these new, improved, more innocent and pure humans simply allow Midgar to be overgrown because it is incongruous with their way of life. But there's just no way it makes sense for the old humans to leave Midgar standing without occupying or salvaging it. They have to be gone.

FYI the original ending of FF7 is a reference to the original ending of Gunmn (AKA Battle Angel Alita) which had a huge stylistic influence on the depiction of Midgar. I could provide a lot of references to prove this but just read the manga, it's great.

>>6182383
Cool to know, anon. Although I'm not surprised; Japan loves recycling the same themes over and over again. You could even argue that the image of hi-tech metropolis that once hovered over the less fortunate being reclaimed by nature goes back even further.

Honestly, most JRPGs often seem to take place at some point during the rise/conceitedness/fall/rediscovery of an extremely advanced-yet-misguided people who abused some kind of unspeakable power. Themes of respecting nature absolutely saturate Japanese media. We had a really nice discussion about this stuff in an FF1 thread a while back. It was comfy.

>>6182459
Yes, Ghibli has always been the first influence on FF. Chocobos come directly from Nausicaa, etc. Midgar is very specifically based on (copied from) Scrap Iron City in Gunmn though: having an upper plate connected by hanging tubes, the look of the slums in the lower areas, even little things in the architecture like the preponderance of wind turbines.

>>6182181
>But there's just no way it makes sense for the old humans to leave Midgar standing without occupying or salvaging it
you mean like they left the forgotten capital and the temple of the ancients?

>>6182459
wholesome movie

>>6182535
>you mean like they left the forgotten capital and the temple of the ancients?
That's literally part of the story, though. Those belonged to the Cetra, who were more-than-decimated by their fight with Jenova. There were almost none of them left after that calamity, so the few survivors reintegrated with humanity and abandonned their homes, especially the one up near the north crater that was a stone's throw from the sealed carcass of the alien that had killed 99% of them.

Did you actually play the game, or...?

>>6182073
>Even if the planet wholesale renounced the use of Mako energy and industrialization, Midgar was still an impossibly gigantic hub of homes, businesses, and, most importantly, resources.

That's the thing, without Mako it really isn't a source of that many resources and wouldn't have been much use as an agricultural area. So after looting what was left which would all happen in the first 100 years or so there wouldn't be much incentive for people to live there.

>>6182119
Sure things can be rebuilt in the sane spot but the world is also full of examples where places were abandoned once people left for better resources elsewhere.

Cyclicity is not a negative thing. Given that the city is called Midgar, the notion that what happened in the end is basically Ragnarok isn't too far-fetched. The old industrialized humanity was wiped and is reborn again in a natural environment.

>>6182073
>>only the absolute worst character survived
>No, Yuffie died.
People itt actually rank Cloud's little bro and sis sidekicks below some sort of fucking robot remote controlled by an actual fucking narc.

>>6182119
unless they happened to fry all the electronics in the city that one time they used it to fire a gun so huge that the solid beam of questionable "energy" it fires is actually bent around the surface of the planet in order to hit it's target

>>6182624
>without Mako it really isn't a source of that many resources
Mako isn't the only resource. It is still the single-largest infrastucture on the planet built entirely of refined materials and is a bastion of homes and businesses, many of which are likely still useful and relevant even without Mako. Even if they made the incredibly stupid decision to abandon it, it likely still would have been almost entirely dismantled and salvaged for all of the useful materials.

As much as Advent Children is on the chopping block as part of my argument, it also kind of makes my point for me; if humanity had survived the endgame events, they would still be occupying Midgar, even without Mako energy, just like they did in the movie. Advent Children simply introduces the eye-rolling ass-pull that humanity survived and Midgar becomes ruins in 500 years for some other contrived reason, which really just comes off as trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

>>6183080
Cait Sith is a kino character and a pleb filter. Yuffie is just a tiresome animu archetype.

>>6183053
>The old industrialized humanity was wiped and is reborn again in a natural environment.
I was actually just thinking about this. Since the Lifestream created all life, and essentially redacted humanity for being a bunch of faggots, perhaps it did re-create them as a new race, more in tune with the planet, like the Cetra were. These new beings would literally have zero use for Midgar, hence why it's abandonned and overgrown in the far future. Of course, this wouldn't change the fact that triggers everyone, which is that Cloud, Tifa and the gang are still wiped. I suppose you could argue they have enough willpower and identity to be Lifestream Force-ghosts like Aerith was, or maybe they got reincarnated, but eh. It's still a much more tidy and appropriate ending to say that they got cancelled.

>>6183096
There's a bunch wrong with that argument; Advent Children still has them occupying Midgar and using some kind of power source, so if you believe that's canon, the Sister Ray clearly didn't do any kind of long-lasting or irreparable damage. Besides, Midgar is still shown to have functional power in the game, even after the ray was fired.

>>6184161
>Mako isn't the only resource.
Exactly. The same reason people don't prefer to build towns in derelict pit mines. Midgar was there to extract Mako, once that facility is gone there's no reason for people to stay there when there's a whole world that isn't toxic from Mako refining.

>>6184161
Also, Advent Children is only two years after FF7 so naturally there would still be people hanging around who had grown up there. That's very different from half a millennia later at which point it's only natural that it would have been abandoned.

Logically it would probably have been a toxic dump for centuries. I see the ending as Nanaki finally seeing the earth start to heal and reclaim that area even though it took 500 years.

>>6182051
This is how Mother 3 ended

>>6182042
It's pretty clear to me that the Lifestream/Aerith saved the planet and everyone survived with the positive music and hopeful tone as the lifestream stops meteor from vanquishing holy right before the credits being evidence of this, and the epilogue with Red XIII is simply when all of the main characters would have naturally passed away and been long gone regardless. The epilogue is just to say, ok, they are all long dead but look, the planet is still alive, Midgar has overgroth, nature is flourishing, and of course Red XIII is still alive with his cubs because his species lives longer than the other characters do (Counting Cait Sith as a human because of Reeve.) I agree it's a better conclusion to the story than Advent Children, but I think the fact that people make the ending of Final Fantasy VII complicated and ambiguous says more about their desire to make things ambiguous in general than there being anything really unclear about the ending itself.

>>6184353
This is a good analysis.

>>6184297
>once that facility is gone there's no reason for people to stay there when there's a whole world that isn't toxic from Mako refining.
There's also no reason for them to abandon the resources. If humanity had survived, AND understood the impact of Mako harvesting, there's no way they wouldn't have scapped Midgar; either because they were so setback by the loss of Mako that they needed to rob resources and materials from Midgar to help them rebuild elsewhere, or because they eventually became so advanced that they felt like cleaning the planet up and removing what is essentially a giant wound on its surface.

The only reason for Midgar to still be standing as abandonned ruins 500 years after the end of FFVII is if all of humanity had been wiped out at that moment.

>>6184353
>The epilogue is just to say, ok, they are all long dead but look, the planet is still alive
Then the epilogue is pointless. Of course the planet is still alive. Even during the game, Bugenhagen doesn't doubt the planet's ability to heal and endure no matter what; it's humanity that is on the chopping block and it always was.
>I think the fact that people make the ending of Final Fantasy VII complicated and ambiguous says more about their desire to make things ambiguous in general than there being anything really unclear about the ending itself.
It literally makes the ending more complicated to try and imagine that humanity survived in any way. Taken at the purest, face value, they fucking got wiped. Hell, even if they didn't show the ruins of Midgar, given everything the plot directly references about how the lifestream works and just how much of a plague humans have been on the planet, it makes sense for humans to get rubbed out, regardless.

I know it's upsetting to imagine that your childhood heroes got fucking greased, but that is literally the easiest, most straightforward conclusion to walk away with. Only mental 12-year-olds try to cling to the hope that they might have lived.

>>6184353
You're fabricating facts to support your assumption instead of forming your assumption based on the facts. Shit analysis.

>>6184404
>. If humanity had survived, AND understood the impact of Mako harvesting

They might have understood it, but clearly stopped. There's nothing else of much use at the midgar site so obviously they moved to any of the much better off parts of the planet. There's literally no good reason for anyone to stay there if they're not refining mako anymore.

I don't know how any of this is confusing to you. There's no disconnect between the end of ff7 and advent children.

>>6184470
You're the one fabricating things. FF7 has no good and bad ending. Advent Children shows there were humans who survived and some were still doing things in the ruins of Midgar 2 years later, but the ending of the game clearly shows that it wasn't still used as a city and after being abandoned for so long is retaken by nature. It's all straightforward abd there's a myriad if reasons humans would prefer moving to Wutai or Niffelheim or wherever instead of the rotting husk of an energy plant.

>>6184484
>There's literally no good reason for anyone to stay there if they're not refining mako anymore.
Except that it's still literally the biggest collections of homes, businesses, resources and materials on the face of the planet. They would have either stayed there, rebuilt, or demolished and repurposed the materials. Just leaving it is stupid as fuck, especially when the entire human species would now have to cope with no longer having Mako. Midgar was home to literal thousands or possibly more. The rest of the world doesn't have the infrastructure to support that.

I'm not saying that there's a disconnect with the game and advent children. I'm saying Advent Children is stupid, contrived garbage that someone pulled out of their ass just to render a 3D fight scene between Cloud and Sephiroth on the big screen.

>>6184494
>Advent Children shows there were humans who survived
Advent Children is non-canon bullshit fabricated years later to make more money. The original game makes it extremely clear that humanity did not survive. The only reason there's such a push to claim otherwise is
A.) to make spin-off games/sequels, and ergo, more money after the first game proved extremely popular
B.) because people who played it when they were literal children couldn't cope with the fact that their favorite polygons didn't get fairytale endings

>>6184512
House structures aren't much use if the land around them is shitty. Humans have abandoned previously bustling city centers many times over our history when they were no longer as viable. Midgar is obviously the same situation.

>Advent Children is non-canon bullshit

Lol. Accusing others of fabricating things and then saying this is riddiculous. I don't even like either, but it's very clear there's no disconnect. Humans clearly survived the events at the end of the game and smartly abandoned Midgar.

>>6182042
>>6184161
>>6184186
>>6184309
>>6184484
>>6184494
>>6184512
>>6184516

Let me introduce you to Kazushige Nojima, the writer of Final Fantasy VII, the direct follow up in novel form "Final Fantasy VII: On the Way to a Smile," and, of course, Advent Children.

>but the writer has nothing to do with what canon and what isn't!

Can't help you there.

>>6184585
>but the writer has nothing to do with what canon and what isn't!
He literally doesn't. He was leveraged into writing non-canon sequels because Square wanted more money and so did he. The intended ending of FFVII is the one we all saw on PS1. Humanity is fuckin' gone, man.

I bet you think Greedo shot first.

It's a real shame the ending was ruined by greed. How will they shit it up in the remake? A tie in for AC?

>>6184603
Literally the people who made the game didn't think humans were all wiped out and everyone else here thinks you're crazy too. This is no defense of AC, it was so bad I couldn't even keep it on in the background. But that has nothing to do with the ending of the game which makes perfect sense and doesn't imply humans are gone. They just wisely abandoned the shithole the game starts in.

>>6184404
>>6184470
>>6184512
>>6184603
>>6184623
>>6184634

Just answer me this: If humanity does not survive meteor then why did the ending not just end when meteor and holy are colliding and everything is going to shit? Why suddenly completely change the music to something hopeful, show lifestream swoop in to save the day and show Aerith's face, and have the credits theme begin on a triumphant high-note? Please watch it carefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZf6Vc3ZRGg&t=5h12m15s

5 hours 12 minutes 15 seconds in

>>6184749
Are you being serious? That's Aeris saving the day. Everything looks lost then she summons the lifestream to absorb the impact and save everyone.

Obviously people survive, that's why it's happy music. Then it cuts to 500 years later and you see people have abandoned Midgar and presumably mako extraction and the wilderness overtook it.

Even ignoring Advent Children and all the other things square has done that show people survived, the ending itself does. That's why they show Nanaki there with happy music. In your scenario somehow every human dies, even those in towns far, far away from the impact but magically Nanaki who was right at ground zero lives and finds a mate.

You're an idiot. And Advent Children is hot trash but you're way too triggered by it.

>>6184973
No, Aerith died casting Holy, she doesn't summon the lifestream, her appearing at the end is just confirmation that everything is going according to her plan
What actually happens is she intended Holy to wipe out humanity, Holy basically feeds on human souls, extracting their lifestream to kill Meteor
Obviously innocents (children) survive, you can hear children laughing at the end

>>6184973
I really feel like people go out of their way to misunderstand me here sometimes. Look, I completely agree with you, I'm on your side. That was why in my post >>6184749
I specifically asked how could have humanity possibly not survived when the ending is the way that it is?

I've never even watched Advent Children. I'm exclusively arguing against the people who are saying no one survives in the ending of Final Fantasy VII.

>>6185007
The children laughing at the end are 600 years later. The children are not to show that the innocent children survive but adults die. It's simply a soundbyte to accompany Red XIII and his cubs which is long since after everyone who survived would have naturally died anyway

I wonder if OP made this thread just to have a reason to get mad...

>it was only Midgar that got abandoned
"No." Midgar was effectively its own militarized nation—even if they did decide to wholesale abandon mako energy, they wouldn't just abandon an entire functioning metropolis. That being said, there's no reason to believe that Holy wiped out humanity or anything equally headcanonical. It's just supposed to be ambiguous and open-ended.

>>6185007
>What actually happens is she intended Holy to wipe out humanity, Holy basically feeds on human souls, extracting their lifestream to kill Meteor
Source?

>>6185043
I was just gonna ask this.

Not to mention the ending shows people watching the Lifestream defending against Meteor, and it's been a long while, but doesn't the Highwind also show everyone alive *after* the lightshow?

If Holy feeds off souls, and it was Holy that was summoned, why doesn't it show everyone dying as it rips their souls out?

Midgar just got abandoned, as did mako refining. Nothing more.

>>6185048
I'm not going to give it a name, or even imply your foreignness, but please stop typing like that.

Wait, if humanity is wiped out, how did Red XIII survive?

>>6185009
>I specifically asked how could have humanity possibly not survived when the ending is the way that it is?

And I find it so blatantly obvious that they survive I can't understand where you're confused. The ending shows survivors, all the sequels and ancillary material square ever gave shows survivors. Clearly humans survived.

>>6185009
>What actually happens is she intended Holy to wipe out humanity

Lol

>>6185093
Humanity was not wiped out. Red XIII, or Nanaki's species lives for hundreds of years. Everyone survived it but then naturally died as the epilogue takes places hundreds of years later, and Red XIII survived simply because that's how long he's supposed to live.

>>6185125
I lol'd, but first of all you meant the second reply to be >>6185043 as opposed to replying to the same post twice, and second of all, and most importantly, >>6185043 is not me. I think, rather, know that Lifestream saves the planet from meteor at the end of Final Fantasy VII, the characters survive.

>>6182042
Advent Children IS the bad ending.

>>6185198
That's what I thought, thank you anon.

I used to think that Aeris was reborn as well, but now I see her more as a "Spirit of the force" or Holy Elemental Summon.

>>6185217
>I used to think that Aeris was reborn as well
So you pretty much operate entirely on headcanon until someone based in reality tells you otherwise?

>>6185238
I used to think she was reborn because her face shows up in the last minute and rumours back then kept saying that it was possible to bring her back.

>>6185264
>thinks a symbolic appearance of her ghost at the last minute means that she's now literally alive
Assuming you're not just trolling for (You)s, you are actually clinically braindead.

>>6185270
Anon, calm down. I was just 9 years old the first time I completed the game.

>>6185287
So you beat it yesterday?

>>6185296
I think it was 1998, anon. Don’t be so mean.

>>6185309
>mean
Kill yourself, effeminate cuckboy.

>>6185312
Why are u so mad, anon? Remember when you actually enjoyed ur life?

>>6185316
>Remember when you actually enjoyed ur life?
No. Commies and impressionable teenagers like you who swallow their shit wholesale have robbed me of any enjoyment.

>>6185323
Sad story. Hope u get better! Do your best, anon!

>>6185332
You too, faggot.

>>6185198
Ahh yeah I could have read your post more carefully. I just assumed you were op again. Meh

>>6185336
You do sound pretty darn upset lol.

>>6185336
chill out bro!! lemme cast blizzaga on you haha :)

>>6185086
Thanks for avoiding the question.

>>6184634
>If humanity does not survive meteor then why did the ending not just end when meteor and holy are colliding and everything is going to shit? Why suddenly completely change the music to something hopeful, show lifestream swoop in to save the day and show Aerith's face, and have the credits theme begin on a triumphant high-note?
Because the lifestream is still saving the planet and every other species on it. Just not humans, but seeing a how humans are literally the villains of FFVII, that makes sense.

>>6185093
Is Red a human?

>>6186125
>Because the lifestream is still saving the planet and every other species on it. Just not humans, but seeing a how humans are literally the villains of FFVII, that makes sense.
the villain of FFVII is a living embodiment of evil in the form of an alien microorganism that assimilates with biological matter to form all manner of horrific corruptions both psychic and physical

Shinra burning the candle at both ends and Hojo having questionable philosophical views about power being a form of transcendence are probably small potatoes to the world of abominations and undead horrors wrought by Jenova's plague of flesh

>>6186147
>the world of abominations and undead horrors wrought by Jenova's plague of flesh
Where was this? Literally all of the conflict in the game itself is caused by Shinra tinkering with shit, or Sephiroth being a dick. Jenova is is merely a tool used by both. The Cetra had sealed Jenova in the North Crater, and had Shinra not shook her cage and stole her DNA, or Sephiroth not gone crazy and summoned meteor, there would pretty much be 0.0 world-ending threats on the table.

I honestly started this thread completely open to free-interpretation of the game's ending, and actually did recognize humanity's survival/Advent Children as the "canon" progression. I was just curious how many people preferred the bad end for humanity, as it's more thematically fitting, but literally everyone supporting the good end keeps proving that they don't even fucking know what happened in the game. Maybe you zoomers should try actually playing it sometime instead of just watching Let's Plays, eh?

>>6186161
Jenova is actually the original primary host of the daemon cells (at least on that planet) who was an infected member of the cetra, she would have been then what Sephiroth is in the game, so in a sense she really is "his mother" as far as being the precursor to what he actually is

the cells are not sentient on their own, they borrow the sentience of the main villain and corrupt them so that they go powermad and kill everything else

you can't really call the humans the villains of FFVII because their sins aren't really intentional, but are more a case of bad ideas and mistakes and failures, which is not the same as "evil" literally sacrificing all other life for it's evolution

>>6186181
>their sins aren't really intentional
Ignorance does not equal innocence. Shinra willingly turned a blind eye to all the evidence that they were harming the planet.
>which is not the same as "evil" literally sacrificing all other life for it's evolution
I suppose, but the argument can also be made that, not unlike Lavos in Chrono Trigger, Jenova was just doing what it does to survive; it lands on a planet, destroys, consumes, evolves and then presumably would progenerate and move on. You can argue that it seems evil, but there isn't even very much evidence to suggest that Jenova is sentient. Notions of good and evil become very subjective when applied to natural instinct and survival, especially when it comes to aliens.

Meanwhile, Sephiroth's turn towards evil is arguably caused by his own hubris, an extremely human trait. I suppose there's the argument that Jenova's cells "made him crazy", but that's a bit of a leap in logic. If Jenova's injections automatically turn someone into a genocidal nutcase, why didn't he snap and go full armageddon until his time in the library where he formed his own headcanon about his existence as motivation? Humans put Jenova's cells in Sephiroth, humans trained him to be a narcissistic killing machine, and it was his own sense of exceptionalism that lead him down the path to destruction. Jenova was arguably just along for the ride.

Jenova did what it did because that's how it survives. The humans and Sephiroth did what they did because of greed, entitlement, ignorance and ego. Despite the fact that Jenova is literally a world-destorying alien monster, it's not hard to argue that humanity is objectively more "evil".

>>6186125
Because the lifestream is still saving the planet and every other species on it. Just not humans, but seeing a how humans are literally the villains of FFVII, that makes sense.

That's complete head canon which aside from your idiotic misunderstanding of why people abandoned Midgar after hundreds of years isn't supported by anything in game or anything Square has ever said or implied about the fate of the ff7 world.

>>6186125
>Because the lifestream is still saving the planet and every other species on it. Just not humans, but seeing a how humans are literally the villains of FFVII, that makes sense.

That's complete head canon which aside from your idiotic misunderstanding of why people abandoned Midgar after hundreds of years isn't supported by anything in game or anything Square has ever said or implied about the fate of the ff7 world.

>>6186292
It's literally all supported by the game. Your idiotic misunderstanding that they survived is only supported by executively-mandated fanfiction.

The original game itself does not show whether mankind lives or dies. Bugenhagen himself muses that unleashing Holy's power to defend against meteor could very well destroy humanity because of how much of a threat it is, which is exactly what Red points out is happening with his awkwardly-translated "Holy is having the opposite effect!" line; Holy was too late to save the planet from Meteor, and was only hastening the destruction of Midgar. At that point, the planet was in danger again until Aeris unleashed the Lifestream, and that's all we get. Next thing we see is Midgar in ruins 500 years later, and the only living things we see are non-human.

You can think whatever you want, but regardless of whether or not the idea of Cloud dying makes you want to cry to your mum, the most likely, straightforward, and logical explanation is that humanity was a casualty of the fight to save the planet, again, just like Bugenhagen surmised. On the spiritual side of things, it's easy to argue that humanity's collective memories, knowledge, and emotions were absorbed into the Lifestream with Aeris' help, as this is stated as being one of the primary functions of the Lifestream, but humanity's physical presence on the planet is fuckin' kaput. All of this is supported by content in the game.

Midgar's ruins still being there isn't the only thing I'm ganging my argument on. Even if you want to omit that, humanity's demise is still extremely congruous with the plot, dialogue, and themes presented to us in the game itself. Meanwhile, your fairytale ending is a pretty contrived ass-pull that only exists in order to resurrect the franchise and make more money.

>>6186292
>your idiotic misunderstanding of why people abandoned Midgar after hundreds of years isn't supported by anything in game or anything Square has ever said or implied about the fate of the ff7 world.
Square has never said anything about why people did or didn't abandon Midgar in the materials of the game itself, though. And even in Advent Children, where they claim that Midgar was too dangerous to occupy or repair because of the Mako contamination, they still end up rebuilding DIRECTLY ON THE FUCKING CITY LIMITS because MIDGAR IS THE LARGEST HUB OF RESOURCES AND MATERIALS ON THE PLANET. Especially when you take into account the fact that Aeris cleansed the land of contamination and Geostigma and created a literal holy healing pool in Midgar, now it makes even less fucking sense for them to abandon the now-safe city and everything new they had built. Even if humanity had survived FFVII's credits and Advent Children was canon, there is no reason Midgar would not have been rebuilt and reinhabited, or otherwise completely dismantled and replaced with something better. For it to still be sitting there in disrepair, reclaimed by nature, only supports my theory that humans just fucking disappeared, and even your retarded fanfiction fairytale supports my theory because of how stupid and poorly-written it is.

>>6186360
>Square has never said anything about why people did or didn't abandon Midgar in the materials of the game itself, though.

Because it's obvious. It was an old power plant that was no longer being used so the town around it was abandoned over time the same way we have often done with old mining towns and the like. It's not spelled out because it's so obvious.

And it's not just Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus also shows people survived. I honestly don't know why you find this hard to understand.

>>6186346
Then why did Red XIII survive but not any of the humans? Is the blast of Meteor and/or Holy sentient? (As far as dialogue is concerned, also very much worth mentioning that the translation is quite poor especially over delicate and specific things like this, and luckily there is a thorough video series called "Found in Translation" that spends countless hours exhaustively going over every important line of dialogue.)

To me the epilogue shows that life survived on the planet clearly, supported by the greenery, Red XIII and his cubs, and the sounds of children laughing. Your argument is that humans were the most evil in the story, moreso than Jenova, and thematically I agree with that. But they survived along with the plants and Red XIII. The epilogue is just there to show that the world and life is larger than what Cloud, his party and the other main characters like Marlene and Aerith's mom went through over the course of the story. That what makes it beautiful. They made it, life made it, but hundreds of years have passed and they've all passed away.

Red XIII's longevity is specifically mentioned earlier as a poingant marker of the fact that he will have to deal with profound lonlieness and loss, losing the people that matter to him and watching hundreds of years of generations come and go. This is evidence for the fact that humanity made it because the point of the epilogue isn't to show that they were vanquished but that a generation passed for new generation to replace it, just not in Midgar which is overgrown.

There's nothing in the game to support that Red XIII's species has some kind of cockroach-to-nuclear-like resistance to the most threatening force against life the planet has ever known, so bottom line as far as I'm concerned if him and his species make it (he would have had to find a female mate of his species) then everyone else makes it too.

>>6186368
Midgar was not just a power plant. I've said it a hundred times, it was literally the biggest man-made structure on the planet, was home to thousands, and was loaded with usable materials and resources. It's exactly why they DIDN'T abandon it in Advent Children. If it was just a "useless power plant", why didn't they rebuild miles away from it instead of directly on the outer edge?
>but muh sequel games/movies
All bullshit fanfiction created from pure contrivance and a desire to make more money. Based on the content shown to us in the original game alone, the complete annihilation of humanity is almost a forgone conclusion and is completely logical, as well as fitting in with the themes of the game, the completed arcs of all the characters, the struggle of life against death, and the ever-present Japanese obsession with environmentalism and valuing all living things equally.

The fact that you cannot refute any of my points and just keep clinging to the poorly-written cash-grab sequels as proof that humanity survived is pretty telling.

>>6186373
>Then why did Red XIII survive but not any of the humans?
BECAUSE RED ISN'T A FUCKING HUMAN. Holy will only remove what it deems a threat, and Bugenhagen himself surmises that it will very likely see humanity as a threat. Red's species, as well as all the other random animals and plants, were not a danger to the planet, and thus were not affected by Holy.

I'm just legit mad at myself now for wasting so much time trying to explain my reasoning to someone who didn't even play the game.

>>6186346
>It's literally all supported by the game.

In no way.

>Your idiotic misunderstanding that they survived is only supported by executively-mandated fanfiction.

It's not fanfiction when it's done by the same company. That makes it official and Advent Children is not the only example. >>6184973

If you're not trolling you are seriously retarded.

>>6186381
I know you keep saying it, but it's stupid and you're wrong.

>it was literally the biggest man-made structure on the planet, was home to thousands,

And abandoned over the course if hundreds of years. Which has happened in not only our world, but most Final Fantasies imply that there were older civilizations usually having higher technology.

>and was loaded with usable materials and resources.

Some of which would have been looted and others ignored when they stopped running the mako refining plant.

>All bullshit fanfiction created from pure contrivance and a desire to make more money.

The game was made to make money in the first place.

>>6186381
>I'm just legit mad at myself now for wasting so much time trying to explain my reasoning to someone who didn't even play the game.

You should be mad because you're not just wasting your time, but all of ours trying to force utter nonsense and pretend you know better than Square what happens at the end of their own game.

You also apparently don't understand the history of human migration which would be funny if you weren't so bullheaded with your ignorance.

>>6186384
>In no way.
Explain how the game supports the notion that humanity survived, without referencing fanfiction.

>It's not fanfiction when it's done by the same company.
Except for when it is. The intent of the game was to have a bad ending for humanity. It fits the themes, it fits the tone, and its why all the characters were given completed character arcs and the party literally breaks up before the final battle where they all know they may be sacrificing themselves. That scene where everyone comes back to the Highwind and talks about their reasons for fighting? THAT'S the real ending for those characters, and that's why the credits don't give us any closure; we already got it. You're right that it doesn't matter what happened to humanity, but the realistic answer based on the evidence in the original game only is that they fuckin' died.

>>6186391
>I know you keep saying it, but it's stupid and you're wrong.
Then why does even Advent Children support my notion that Midgar wouldn't be abandonned?

>most Final Fantasies imply that there were older civilizations usually having higher technology.
Yeah, and they always meet horrible fucking ends or get completely annihilated. That's the only reason that such a huge, highly-advanced hub of technology and resources would be completely abandonned. Thanks for making my argument for me, retard.

>And abandoned over the course if hundreds of years.
>Some of which would have been looted and others ignored when they stopped running the mako refining plant.
Now who's making up stuff that wasn't supported by the official continuity? ;^)

>The game was made to make money in the first place.
So? The original game was also a deliberate and geniune attempt to solidify a creative vision. The spin-off shit has literally done nothing but ruin it for the sake of beating a dead horse.

>>6186409
>Explain how the game supports the notion that humanity survived, without referencing fanfiction

Red 13. And the reasons you give fir saying that's not the case are riddiculous. Also it's not fanfiction by definition.

>The intent of the game was to have a bad ending for humanity.

No.

>Then why does even Advent Children support my notion that Midgar wouldn't be abandonned?

AC is two years later. The scene where you see midgar overgrown is 500. I don't know why this is confusing but I'm not wasting any more time right now.

You can say anything you want but none if your reasons hold water and you are objectively factually wrong.

>>6186408
>history of human migration
Which has nothing to do with Midgar still being there. Migrating from an old settlement and leaving it to rot, and abandonning the (I'm gonna say it again) SINGLE LARGEST AMASSMENT OF RESOURCES, MATERIALS, HOMES AND BUSINESSES ON THE FACE OF THE FUCKING PLANET are two very different notions. Midgar would have been reinhabited, rebuilt, or completely dismantled eventually, for a number of reasons. The fact that it is just sitting there, 500 years later, in the same basic state that it was in at the end of the game only proves that humanity got wiped. People don't abandon a highly-advanced metropolis unless they have to, especially when it's literally the only one with an infrastucture capable of handling their population. Even Advent Children supports this by showing residents choosing to still live in/near it.

I'm sorry you're just mad that your favorite childhood video game polygons are dead, anon. It's upsetting, but maybe once you grow up, you'll realize it's the truth.

>>6182119
>>6182106
Midgar was the site of 8 Mako Reactors.
The land there is blasted and lifeless for miles.

Without those reactors, that land is worthless. You can't grow anything, no animals can survive on it except predators, and the ruins themselves are full of monsters.

It would take hundreds of years for the planet to repair the damage those reactors did to the area, so it makes sense that people would have abandoned it as soon as it was stripped of anything immediately useful.

>>6186381
>I'm just legit mad at myself now for wasting so much time trying to explain my reasoning to someone

Period, you can end the sentence there, because I have beaten the game, the original, Playstation 1 game from beginning to end. You are indeed mad at yourself, hence the seething at people who see the story of a video game differently than you do, which is, admittedly, pretty funny.

I beat the game 7 years ago which was a while ago, but I was 18 so it's not like I was 9 either. Also have read about it a lot since then. As far as I knew, Holy is there to stop Meteor and protect life (which includes humans...) and the planet. But I will not be stubborn, if you have evidence from the game that where a character like Bugenhagen said that Holy is more, how would you put it...neutral than that? And willing to wipe out humans which are also life? I'm all ears. By your logic humans are a threat to the planet so therefore the planet is somehow using holy to kill all of them, in spite of the lifestream which nontheless would intercept that. Or are the lifestream and the planet the same thing? Either way, it's absurd that the ending would end on the tone and music that it did with the lifestream and all, if the lifestream or holy is going to wipe out humans. Bottom line, it's absurd. If anything is wiping out humans, it's meteor, not holy or the lifestream, which Aerith was in favor of both of. Does she want to kill humans?

It just seems counter intuitive to the themes of the game, which is not that all humans are evil, just some like Shinra and Hojo are. Remember when you go to the town right after Midgar and perform CPR on that kid? The point of the game is not that all humans are evil, but that certain ones are and ruin things for everyone else.

>>6186373
>Red XIII's longevity is specifically mentioned earlier as a poingant marker of the fact that he will have to deal with profound lonlieness and loss, losing the people that matter to him and watching hundreds of years of generations come and go. This is evidence for the fact that humanity made it because the point of the epilogue isn't to show that they were vanquished but that a generation passed for new generation to replace it, just not in Midgar which is overgrown.
Vincent makes a promise to meet up with XIII and remember the crew together, and ultimately XIII as well since he's functionally immortal

>>6186429
>Which has nothing to do with Midgar still being there.

It has everything. It's an abandoned ruin once the people left. That's the thing you can't seem to understand which is baffling.

Nothing implies they all died. Indeed we've been shown without question that they didn't. They just don't occupy an abandoned power plant city for the same reason others abandoned the towns around old mines. Again, none of this should be confusing.

>>6186478
Good point. We don't see Vincent in the ending or a single FMV for that matter, but he would have lived at least as long as Red XIII, and survived as well just like all the humans did.

>>6186425
>Red 13. And the reasons you give fir saying that's not the case are riddiculous.
Wow, so you can't get it through your head that Red XIII isn't human? You've proven yourself to be irrefutably retarded.

>>6186456
>As far as I knew, Holy is there to stop Meteor and protect life (which includes humans...)
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
>if you have evidence from the game that where a character like Bugenhagen said that Holy is more, how would you put it...neutral than that? And willing to wipe out humans which are also life?
The dialoge from pic related continues as follows:
>Bugenhagen: "Ho Ho Hooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear."
>Bugenhagen: "Perhaps, even ourselves."
>Cloud: "Even us!?"
>Bugenhagen: "It is up to the planet to decide."
>Bugenhagen: "What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho Hoo."
>Bugenhagen: "I wonder which we humans are?"

I agree that one of the themes present in the game is that not all of humanity is beyond redemption, however that does not preclude humanity's destruction, especially since another theme of the game is that good things don't have to happen to good people and in fact the opposite is generally more true. The culmination of humanity's worth is that Cloud and friends regroup and go to fight Sephiroth even when it doesn't matter. The characters openly acknowledge that their own fate is no longer in their hands, but taking out Sephiroth is the "right" thing to do, because even if meteor destroys them, they will have cleaned up the mess that Shinra made, and ensured that Sephiroth couldn't see through his ultimate plan of becoming a galaxy-devouring monster. Cloud and friends went into the final battle, accepting that it may be for nothing, but at least no other worlds would have to suffer their fate.

>>6186530
When I read "Holy..." for a second I thought he interrupted himself from going, "Holy Shit!"

>>6186530
>Wow, so you can't get it through your head that Red XIII isn't human? You've prove

No he's obviously not, it just doesn't matter. What you're saying about humans all being wiped out is 100% your personal headcanon not supported by the game or square in any way.

>>6182042
Do they ever specify WHEN this happens? I don't remember.
I assumed it was like 500 years in the future or something, which seems about right and isn't invalidated by Advent Children.

>>6186492
They're just taking the broke-ass ingame text way too fucking literally. Meteor was a planet-killing danger and the concern was that whatever Holy would have to unleash to counter it could easily cause catastrophic collateral damage to civilization in the process. It was supposed to save the planet, not specifically every living thing on it. The pre-credits ending is ambiguous to the fate of the cast but the post-credits scene should clue you in that if XIII/Nanaki survived the impact and went on to have a full life (they were all dicking about on an airship at altitude at the time of impact after all, not exactly the most sensible place to be in a catastrophic atmospheric event) that the rest of them made it out fine as well

>>6186542
This is correct. The end, perfect, nothing refutable here.

>>6186492
>>6186538
>Nothing implies they all died.
You still haven't told me how the original game objectively implies they all live.

Forget AC exists for a minute. Back in 1997 when people were finishing this game for the first time, whether or not humanity lived or died after the ending was one of the BIGGEST discussions around, because, based on the evidence given in game alone, it was pretty easy to argue either outcome. The point of FFVII's original creative intent (which is what I value here above all else, and you should, too) was that it didn't matter whether or not humanity lived or died, because the planet survived and endured, and I agree, that is what the ending clearly shows; the planet lived, regardless of what humanity did. Developers refused to comment in interviews because they felt it was better for the players to decide. The point of the ending was that a small group of good humans came together to clean up the mess that was caused by bad humans, and to stop any more planets from becoming a victim of Sephiroth, regardless of what happens to them.

The second they decided to make Advent Children, that original intent was cheapened beyond salvation, because now it DID matter that humanity survived, which is pure, retroactive contrivance for the sake of more money.

>>6186542
>the post-credits scene should clue you in that if XIII/Nanaki survived the impact and went on to have a full life (they were all dicking about on an airship at altitude at the time of impact after all, not exactly the most sensible place to be in a catastrophic atmospheric event) that the rest of them made it out fine as well
You're missing the point. The impact isn't what killed them. Holy was literally a magical force that was just going to make any perceived "threat" disappear (which you would know if you paid attention), and that would have included humans. Doesn't matter if they were on a fucking airship.

>>6186456
>Either way, it's absurd that the ending would end on the tone and music that it did with the lifestream and all, if the lifestream or holy is going to wipe out humans.
It's contrast. Thematic dissonance. The End of Evangelion has literally all of humanity being destroyed to an emotional pop song. The game was about rescuing the planet, and that's what the uplifting music was for. Not humans.

>>6186552
>You still haven't told me how the original game objectively implies they all live.

The positive tone and showing Nanaki. Your theory that holy was only going to selectively kill humans is ridiculous.

>The second they decided to make Advent Children,

I think you mean to say Dirge of Cerberus which also takes place post-ff7 withthe world still having humans in it.

Sorry dude. You trying to say you know more about squares story than they do is pants on head.

>>6185086
That still counts as being a newfag trying to spread the "weddit spacing T.T" meme.

>>6184749
cuz the planet and the cutie tootie animals are being saved, humans can go eat a dick. WEAPON already attacked humans, it's completely rational that holy would purge humans, especially after getting buffed with lifestream.

>>6186718
You're retarded and obsessed with a game you don't even understand.

>>6186750
You know you're right when retards get mad and can't prove a single thing you said wrong

>>6186752
Lol we've explained how you're wrong over and over. You are just obsessed with your own head canon and trying to say it's more correct than the people who made it.

>>6186759
Fucking this. I just refreshed this thread to see it double in size as OP digs himself in over his headcanon and declare everyone else wrong because that's not how his fanfic goes.

OP, you are actively choosing to disregard events in the overall timeline to support your own theory and apply events from our world to a fictional one as "evidence," then talk down to others because actual story elements, both seen in the game and in material outside the core FF7 title, either don't exist to you, or you decide to interpret them differently, and therefore you're most correctest. You state how elements of the plot function in ways that they clearly don't, but stand by it as how your theory is correct. Every post you make just further depicts you as a stubborn idiot with arms folded, standing atop the hill you have chosen to die on, which happens to be a pile of crack theories and bullshit.

Fuck's sake. If you want to believe whatever story so badly, then just do it and be done. Not everyone else has to agree with you, and they clearly aren't going to.

>>6182042
Pretty sure everything that is based on FF7 is considered fan-fiction, m8. Nothing outside of the original game is canon.

>>6186897
That's objectively not true though.

>>6186759
>>6183053
oof

protip: all the humans evolved into jenova-like lifeforms and spread across the universe, leaving their old cities to rot

this was possible because Sephiroth fucked A LOT of women and left his culturally enriched genes behind

>>6186908
Unironically plausible.

>>6186906
Nice response. But deep down unless you are genuinely mentally ill you understand that what you're trying to force is your personal interpretation of what you wanted to happen at the end if FF7. That your desire isn't supported by either the game or any of the ancillary material has turned you into a bitter troll.

>>6186926
Keep deluding yourself, flash + no people shown afterwards only points to one conclusion.

>>6186552
>You're missing the point. The impact isn't what killed them. Holy was literally a magical force that was just going to make any perceived "threat" disappear

what happens to an Airship when the people piloting it disappear?

>>6186908
The more likely reality is that humans embraced their Cetra lineage and went back to their migratory way of life.

>>6182459
>Honestly, most JRPGs often seem to take place at some point during the rise/conceitedness/fall/rediscovery of an extremely advanced-yet-misguided people who abused some kind of unspeakable power. Themes of respecting nature absolutely saturate Japanese media.
the Zeal arc in Chrono Trigger is a major example of this.

>>6186949
it's plausible that the only surviving humans are Cetra. their way of life is consistent with Midgar being abandoned.

>>6182051
>only the absolute worst character survived
Cait Sith didn't survive though

>>6185040
>there's no reason to believe that Holy wiped out humanity or anything equally headcanonical
It's said in the game that Holy could wipe out humanity

>>6182459
>advanced people who abuse some kind of unspeakable power
Hiroshima left a deep mark in japanese culture, which was still felt strongly in the 90's. That era also was marked by mistrust in the authorities because of the japanese economic crisis. This is way these themes were so frequent then. You see it a lot in anime too, Akira, Evangelion, etc.

>>6186936
I actually rewatched it again last night. That you think that scene represents every human being obliterated makes me think you are genuinely autistic or retarded. It is so clear that Aeris uses the life stream to save everyone that your confusion makes almost no sense. That you're still trying to hammer it home and claim everything Square has said is the fanfiction makes it pretty clear you're either mentally ill or just really stupid.

>>6188065
you're either a brainlet or trolling at this point.

>>6188076
Not even a little. You are trying to forcefeed head canon as fact and what you're trying to force doesn't even make sense. I don't even like Final Fantasy VII and can tell you're out of your gourd.

>>6186125
>humans are literally the villains of FFVII
WTF am I reading? Literally the whole point of FFVII was that all human society (including ShinRa and, therefore, Midgar) was being controlled by an alien parasitic lifeform who mind-controlled its subjects by infecting them with its cells and telepatically communicating with each others.
Humans are the victim, not the culprit.

>>6188204
>WTF am I reading?

The sad, obsessive fanfiction of someone who desperately wanted Final Fantasy 7 to have been a profound artistic statement about humanity and who is now in meltdown over the dissonance between what his 13 year old brain thought and what the game actually was.

>>6184353
Honestly, I didn't even know there were people that think the ending was ambiguos until I saw this thread. This was the exact same conclusion I had when I first saw the prologue.

>>6188246
Yeah outside of OP, virtually no one was confused about the ending. As evidenced by Square never feeling any need to retcon or explain the ending when they started releasing ancillary material.

It's the most bog-standard "ohh no everything seems hopeless!" then the magic girl shows up to save the day ending possible. OP is basically trying to force another "Squall was dead for half the game" type meme but he's too dense to realize this makes even less sense.

>>6188217
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think the game does have profound themes in it. The entire Cloud-&-Tifa-in-the-Lifestream sequence is basically inspired by Heidegger's lectures on Holderlin and the "lacerated self", which is exactly what Cloud is: a multitude of contrasting personalities which are eventually unified thanks to Tifa's intervention. Heck, Heidegger is literally the name of a character in the game.
But this idea that somehow FFVII is some kind of left-wing take on how global warming is bad and we humans are bad because pollution is le ebul needs to stop.
I swear, FFVII may be the most misunderstood game of all time:
people believing that Cloud is a clone when the game explicitly shows you that he isn't;
people believing that Cloud and Aerith are somehow the canon couple when the most important scene in Cloud's character development has Tifa trying to literally fix his soul;
people believing that Sephiroth is Lucrecia's and Vincent's son;
people thinking that Jenova is a woman, while in reality it's a parasitic micro-organism who first infected a female Cetra;
people still not realizing that Cait Sith is actually Reeve.

It's like most people played the game when they were 5, couldn't even read the text boxes and started LARPing their own headcanon.

>>6188267
I do agree and it is more interesting in a few ways than the norm. Cloud being both the main character and an unreliable narrator is at least a decent twist. And also the themes of humans fucking up the natural state of the earth are indeed there. That is what Shinra and Mako extraction represents.

But that OP thinks the ultimate end is thar Aeris uses the lifestream at the end not to stop Holy, but to help systemically murder every human on the planet and that's why they show Midgar overgrown is ridiculous. That he then tries to double down saying he alone understands it and everyone at Square is writing fanfiction is just comedy.

>>6186552
>The planet lived, regardless of what humanity did.

>The point of the ending was that a small group of good humans came together to clean up the mess that was caused by bad humans, and to stop any more planets from becoming a victim of Sephiroth, regardless of what happens to them.

I agree with this, actually. Humorously given how much argument there has been on this thread as to whether or not they made it at the end, only going by the original game and none of the sequels in the franchise of course, it seems to not matter so much given the epilogue, which is there to make a point regardless of what opinion you have about the grand scheme of things. Whether or not hey survived, certainly none of them are around 500 years later. But the Planet is, and they were fighting for the Planet and Life to live on, not just themselves.

>Developers refused to comment in interviews because they felt it was better for the players to decide.

I also don't doubt this for a second. I still believe it's clear Aerith/The Lifestream saved everybody, but for once let's appreciate OP. I played the game as an adult but never when it was new, but his stubborn insistence has actually made me appreciate the ending in a new way. When I first read, years ago, that some people found it ambiguous I scratched my head, but the fact is, writer Kazushige Nojima and the rest of the staff made the ending the way it was for a reason. Regardless of your interpretation what is given and what is left out is deliberate. Maybe it's no coincidence and they wanted people to debate it and discuss to no end to give more attention and mystique to the money-making juggernaut that was the game. But I don't think it's really intended to be a matter of hot debate as it is to leave you with something. That's great, subtle storytelling, leaving you to wonder what themes and events in the story truly mattered. Because what a storyteller leaves out is often more impactful.

>>6188279
>And also the themes of humans fucking up the natural state of the earth are indeed there. That is what Shinra and Mako extraction represents.
I don't deny that, but my point is that they are exaggerated. Chrono Trigger had the same shtick: alien lifeform invades the planet in the distant past and starts stealing its energy with the help of a mind-controlled civilization. Heck, Queen Zeal helping Lavos is literally the same as Hojo using his position within ShinRa to help Sephiroth/Jenova.
Yet, you don't see anyone claiming that Chrono Trigger is about humanity ruining the planet, do you?

>>6188279
I agree with this, but I think he has a point about the sequels as well. I think they were very deliberate about the ending being ambiguous. Otherwise it wouldn't have ended and cut to the credits when it did and would have shown everyone safe. Of course I believe On the Way to a Smile, Dirge of Cerberus and Advent Children are canon, but it's not completely absurd to look at Final Fantasy VII as a stand a lone product either. It's hardly the first time a sequel to something that had a purposefully ambiguous ending clears things up and makes things boring. To use an example of another game where a sequel ruins a great ending...I know it's "not retro" but it's a perfect example: don't you feel that the ending of X where Tidus dissapears and the very end of the last scene is Yuna asking people to never forget the people that passed away was so much more fitting and poignant than X-2 where lol in the best ending Tidus comes back anyway because they wuv each other?

>>6188391
FF7 does play it up a bit more but generally I agree.

>>6188393
I think subtle is a better term than ambiguous. With what you see of the lifestream flowing, the music abd Aerith there really isn't a need to show all the characters cheering or wiping their brow or whatever. That she was successful in saving things is so strongly implied it would probably just come off as hokey. Showing Nanaki and his kids many many years later is plenty. At least for most people.

>>6188393
>it's not completely absurd to look at Final Fantasy VII as a stand a lone product either
I agree, but that's a separate issue. Nobody denies that the compilation is canon, the problem is that, as you said, it lessened the impact of the original. The ending has a really "final" impact which was ruined by SE's greed. Similar to how MGS2 was supposed to be the final installment.

The point is that you don't need the compilation to confirm that humanity wasn't wiped out. Nanaki was shown to be alright, which means that the main party survived, ergo at least some humans survived.

>>6188391
Steak and potatoes are both foods but you don't see anyone complaining you're murdering potatoes.

You're missing a LOT in both stories if you make it that simple. Neither Rufus or President Shinra were backing Jenova/Sephiroth. Nor were any of the other heads at Shinra including the Turks. In fact once they figured it out pretty much all of them (still around) turned their attention to stop them. None of that happens in CT. In that you have lots of direct support for Lavos even if it is through force. You don't have the characters fighting specifically against Zeal or something to stop damage to the planet.

Nobody says it about CT because it's not written. It is in FF7. Excalibur and Lord of the Rings are both fantasy epics with magic and swords and horses. Doesn't make them so similar that watching one makes you an expert on the other.

>>6188418
This is the ideal approach. Understanding why what was left out of the ending was left out, the fuckery of the sequels, and the blatant fact that they survived.

>>6188426
>None of that happens in CT.
False. By talking with Zealians, you discover that most of them are creeped out by how the Queen has changed and only cares about Lavos. When shits starts going down, pretty much everyone realizes that they were wrong, with the only exception being Queen Zeal who kept being mind-controlled till the end (just like Hojo).

Of course CT and FFVII are different in a lot of things. What? You thought that I believe them to be a 1:1 copy of each other? My point is that if they both have the same plot device of an alien entity mind-controlling people is because they're both trying to say the same thing: humans are not necessarily in control of their own actions. A species destroying its own environment doesn't make sense from an evolutionary perspective, but it does if you add a mind-controlling alien into the equation. Cloud's entire story has to do 100% with being mind-controlled and 0% with the environment. In fact, nobody in the party is what you would call an environmentalist. Even Barret is actually doing it because he feels guilty about having trusted ShinRa in the past.

The environmentalism in FFVII is definitely overblown by the fans. If anything, the game has a focus on animism, what with the planet being alive and sentient and the Lifestream being LITERALLY the souls of dead people.

>>6188465
>A species destroying its own environment doesn't make sense from an evolutionary perspective

Yet here we are in the midst of one of the most major extinction events in our planet's history. Ice caps are melting at rates even the most pessimistic scientists didn't predict only a few years ago. And yet it's not hard at all to find otherwise capable people who convince themselves it's all a hoax.

And that's just humans. Anyone who has seen the damage deer will do to a given area if not kept in check by predators wouldn't find it surprising either.

>>6188484
>Yet here we are in the midst of one of the most major extinction events in our planet's history.
Oh, you're one of those guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlnwhcO5NC0

>>6188486
Yes. Us evil science based people who actually look at the world around us. How dastardly we must seem for being concerned over something important.

>>6188498
>Us evil science based people
No, you stupid gullible simpletons.
>who actually look at the world around us
No, you put on your ideological blindfold and refuse to analyze evidence.
>How dastardly we must seem for being concerned over something important.
Yeah, because I, a human being living on this planet, don't really care if global warming is real or not, right? You're like a random NPC in Midgar thinking:
>"Shinra destroyed Sector 7? That's impossible! Why would they ever do that?!?"

>>6188513
I'm not going to waste time discussing this with the likes of you, just please be open and public with your beliefs. There will be a time when your ilk can deny things no more and we will want to know who you are.

>>6188517
>I'm not going to waste time discussing this with the likes of you
Of course you're not. Imagine if you'd discover that *gasp* you've been lied to?!?
>we will want to know who you are.
Unlike you, I'm not going to threaten you. I'm just suggesting you take a moment to educate yourself and learn how temperature measurement works. We humans, with present day technology, are currently unable to accurately measure the temperature of a small city, let alone an entire state or THE ENTIRE PLANET.

>>6184603
non-canon based on what? It's ok to have your own headcanon, but you have no authority to declare what is canon and what not

>>6188524
I am very well educated on the subject which is why I am not going to waste my time. You are no different than a flat-earther to me. I simply encourage you to state your beliefs publicly so there's a record.

>>6184603
It's amusing to me when idiots say non-sequitur like "non-canon" and think they're smart. That's his canon. You're also going by your interpretation of an ambiguous ending. You can't prove actually what happened at all.

>>6188576
Correction, he is misinterpreting a non-ambiguous ending.

>>6184603
I hate to say it, but Star Wars was George Lucas' story. And if he revises it to say Greedo shot first, that's what happened.

Disney buying the rights and making Han's son kill him in cold blood is another matter though.

I get why this is a problem it's 500 years later of course these niggas would be dead. But They did save the planet. Given the ending and the dirge of cerberus game it's a good think humanity is gone 500 years later because it makes Omegas inevitable re awakening a lot easier

>>6188484
>>6188486
>>6188498
>>6188513
>>6188517
>>6188524
>>6188538

it has been well delineated that 500 years after the events of ffvii, advanced civilization has ceased to exist. the only ambiguity is whether humans were wiped out, or if there's a remnant of Cetra left.

This thread inspired me to replay FF7 over the weekend and from what I can tell nobody actually gives a shit about the planet at all. Cloud wants to kill sephiroth because muh hometown and the rest follow because they’re sheep. Tifa hates everybody, token black guy hates shinra and himself equally, aeris is just desperate for clouds cock and the remaining characters are all vengeance driven. The mechanics and world atmosphere is definitely what made the game great, the story and characters is lacking in so many ways other than the main plot being ok.

>>6191570
Who even cares if humans are there. There are birds, plants, and at the very least Nanaki's species all flourishing. It's 500 years later. All of the characters, their potential descendants and the potential descendants of the potential descendants are long gone. It's far more significant that there's life at all on the planet than whether or not humans even made it.

>>6191654
Yeah, I once read or watched something great that explained how it's a big flaw that, after the sequence where Cloud tells the flashback story at Nibelheim in the inn, they just keep going along with him. It's a huge plot hole on many levels. Since they all ended up there for their own reasons why would they trust and follow this amnesiac mercenary who's story is full of holes who contradicts himself all of the time and sometimes entirely loses control over himself? Especially since they have no way of knowing at the time the connection to Sephiroth and Shinra, Jenovah, and the Planet.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/FinalFantasyVII

>>6191713
Lol you're retarded.

>>6191735
Come back after you have looked up how long life has been on planet earth and how many years homo sapiens have been here for.

>>6191789
That has nothing at all to do with the ending of Final Fantasy 7. Try looking up the history of major city centers being abandoned and forgotten. Spoiler alert, there are still people.

You really seriously are one of the stupidest people to ever post here.