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/vr/ - Retro Games


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5694351 No.5694351 [Reply] [Original]

3D ruined game design. It ushered in the idea of immersion, and made cinematic, skill-neutral games the norm.

>> No.5694358

Good news: The modern market is over-saturated with 2D Metroidvanias and various other platformers.

>> No.5694404 [DELETED] 

>>5694351
No lol

>> No.5694428

>>5694351
>some of the most skill-intensive and competitive games take place in a 3D environment

>> No.5694429

>>5694351
Mostly true, the core gameplay mechanics of most of these games were not designed with 3D space in mind, and so when thrust into 3D they became radically different games, mostly walking through empty terrain with easily ignored enemy simulators and a familiar coat of paint.

>> No.5694430

>>5694428
Fighting games and rts are mostly 2d

>> No.5694489

2D games already strived for immersion you dumb cunt.

>> No.5694504

go back /v/ and play quake 3

>> No.5694585

>>5694351
3D allows more immersion but it doesn't automatically go hand in hand with cinematics. It was a revolutionary thing to have FMVs at the time and games like FF7 used it to great success, but the problem is devs didn't know when to quit and dial it back. Now we have $60 movies thanks to these people who don't understand the GAME part of video game. OoT had some nice atmosphere in its dungeon where you were allowed to explore and actually play the game.

>> No.5694587

So did you never play Prince of Persia, Out of this World, Flashback, or anything like that? Or the dozens of FMV games?

>> No.5694606 [DELETED] 
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5694606

>>5694351
OoT is a good balance of story telling and gameplay. MGS would be a better example. Of course, you don't know what you're talking about so I'm not surprised.

>> No.5694613

>>5694351
Are you implying 2D games can't be immersive?

>> No.5694623

>>5694613
yes but 2d tends to rely substantially on imagination.

>> No.5694625

>>5694606
You don't know what you're talking about either as while MGS has more cutscenes the gameplay is some of the best ever with every environment carefully designed to make the best uses of the the mechanics, and have multiple different ways to deal with the situations presented that also allowed for numerous creative ways to play and master the game. A far cry away from the cinematic shit we are talking about that really took hold during the PS3 era when games became an unviable medium for many developers and the market shifted to pandering to the idiots who will buy the newest hype QTE fest or online instant action game. OP's not wrong in that the advancement in technology ruined games. It became too expensive to do anything and that's why DS and PSP became the systems to play for anyone who wanted something actually decent. Now that era is over and we are pretty much fucked.

>> No.5694626

>>5694613
They can be, it's just a lot harder. Batman on NES clearly has a different atmosphere and type of immersion than SM2, mostly due to darker color palette and music. But it fits Batman and makes you feel like you're in Batman's world.

>> No.5694631

>>5694625
>DS
>decent games

It was a shoveware factory. 90% of games were spin-offs of Imagine Babies and Zoo Pets.

>> No.5694632
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5694632

>>5694623
Well you're a fucking idiot then.

>> No.5694636
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5694636

>>5694351
>it's another 5th gen created/started 3d thread

>> No.5694686 [DELETED] 

>>5694625
I don't disagree that the gameplay is good. Unfortunately MGS has more cutscenes than gameplay.

>> No.5694691
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5694691

Hard pill to swallow: games always had what modern games are today in mind.

>> No.5694727

>>5694691
>games always had what modern games are today in mind.
Cool nihilistic viewpoint. Game have completely different design philosophies than today. Most notably and objectively in how they you play them. Releasing a game in a broken state didn't fly back then. Today it's expected and so normalized it's rarely a con.

>> No.5694741

>>5694631
Yeah, but it had more than enough actually good games to warrant picking it up.
>>5694686
How is that unfortunate? It still has a full length game and tons of replayability with actually well tuned difficulty levels and no radar as well as game over on detection, unlockable items, tons of secrets and easter eggs, different ways to play the game, etc... I can see not liking long cutscenes etc... But there's still a whole game there anyways and nothing was skipped in terms of focus on gameplay, it had importance and craftmanship put into all aspects.
>>5694691
Maybe some but many great games had a philosophy that was completely different to what we have now. Mikami and Kamiya liked cinematic elements but had strong focus on the actual game as the core of everything, and no modern games match the care put into their game design. Reality is the guys who could really show us what unbridled creativity in the modern era is capable of just dont have the chance to. Even Nomura who loves long-ass cutscenes said he wanted to cut down on that and blend cutscenes with gameplay as they take place simultaneously without breaking the flow of the game, and reducing the amount of talking by having text only dialogues, but it simply wasn't allowed as the executives wanted to pump out the same bullshit and not take any risks. The joy of actually playing something fun and creative is lost on the current market where the audience has been either dumbed down or the actual hardcore players driven off, and we are expected to enjoy how 'cool' the custscenes and open world are and not worry about the gameplay and actual depth of anything.

>> No.5695890 [DELETED] 
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5695890

>>5694727
>Releasing a game in a broken state didn't fly back then. Today it's expected and so normalized it's rarely a con.

Did you just say our games are broken? No, you've got it wrong. it just works. no matter what game it is. now SPEAK after me! IT....JUST...WORKS...

>> No.5695948

>>5694351
3D made a lot of traditional video game genres a lot messier.
In 2D, games like shoot-em-ups and platformers have pretty simple ways for enemies and terrain to come at the player, and simple ways for the player to deal with the terrain and enemies. It's easy to judge distance and range.
In 3D, you're dealing with the camera, you're dealing with the fact that it's harder for both player and enemy to hit each other, you're dealing with the issues of aiming in 3D, there's just a lot more to deal with. It's a hell of a lot harder to judge distance, especially given the lack of depth perception with things on the screen.
3D changes the player's options pretty dramatically, too.
Fighting games in 3D have avoided attacks like the hadouken because you can just walk or sidestep around the attack (admittedly, a lot of games didn't do projectiles just because Virtua Fighter and Tekken didn't, too).
You could reasonably do things like make the attack bigger in the Z axis so it was harder to avoid, but the player's general ability to keep away and approach still changes in 3D.

like, the only "classic" video game genre that's just 100% improved by the shift to 3D is racing -- either games were top-down or approximated 3D visuals, and the shift to 3D didn't really change how you moved, you had a better view of the road, you'd design tracks more like actual race tracks because you weren't approximating how curves worked or dealing with the limited top-down view, etc

>> No.5696015

>>5694632
you don't seem to understand what words mean.

>> No.5696121

>>5694727
> nihilistic
don't use a word if you don't know what it means

>> No.5696124

>>5696121
Go look it up, champ.

>> No.5696129

Thank god the general gaming public disagrees with you.

>> No.5696270

>>5695948
All this, but especially the camera. It's easy to forget now, but those PS2 and even some early PS3 era games were plagued by some of the most god awful cameras known to man. I remember Xplay it was almost a daily occurrence they would complain about some game's camera. I'm playing Wind Waker now and the camera in that is being an absolute dick during fights anytime you get remotely near the wall, it just doesn't know what to do and spins all around or goes *inside* Link since the focus is on the enemy. Nothing like trying to fight a moblin with the whole screen covered in green tunic.

>> No.5696284

>>5695948
>>5696270
There are plenty of examples with good cameras in the 5th gen. Resident Evil and Silent Hill, Nintendo games like OoT, and on the Saturn you had Burning Rangers.

Wind Waker's camera is good.

>> No.5696392

>>5696124
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nihilism
Yes?

>> No.5696448

>>5694351
Biggest problem with 3D was that it made floaty controls and imprecise combat the norm.

>> No.5697284

>>5696284
>Wind Waker's camera is good.

No it's way too close to Link and whenever you get surrounded by a lot of guys (those mini devil guys for instance) the lock on always switching to a new one causes the camera to spin frantically in circles. It's not the worst camera, but it's not as good as TP's also on the gamecube, showing they knew they could improve it.

>> No.5697296

>>5694631
and yet the DS still had a wider library of good games than any other handheld ever

>> No.5697323

>>5696392
And I used it correctly. What's your point here?

>> No.5697532
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5697532

>>5694351
This.

>> No.5697605

I don't mind 3D, but many well stablished franchises suffered a lot in the transition. Sure it made FF more popular, and the crowd loved OoT, but what good is (for me) to become more popular at the cost of making the games less enjoyable?

With each passing generation games make sacrifices in design to sell more. And for some games, 3D was that sacrifice.

>> No.5697639

Deus ex, Thief and System Shock > any 2d game
of course /vr/ only likes kiddie 2d games

>> No.5697640

>>5694351
it was built with the game's engine and the sequences are minimal, at least it wasn't FMV shit to make the player forget that is playing a game. Stop bitching annoying autist.

>> No.5697641

>i love sprites xd xd xd
>Dont you my redditor friend?

>> No.5697645

>>5697640
dont try to argue with the /vr/ circlejerk, not worth it.

>> No.5697659

>>5694625
I don't agree at all with OP but MGS was clunky as hell.


>>5694631
You never even touched a DS do you? Not everything was a shitty shovelware you fucking prick.

>> No.5697660

>>5694351
>It ushered in the idea of immersion
immersion is not a bad thing
>made cinematic
That happened much later and early n64 games were not cinematic
>skill-neutral games
games were becoming that way on the snes

>> No.5697667
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5697667

Video games have been attempting a 3D perspective since 1976. Also:
>>5694428

Try Virtual On, OP.

>> No.5697780

>>5694351
True

>> No.5697791

Late 90's are retro. cope.

>> No.5698930

3D makes things into objects instead of symbols, for better or worse

>> No.5698936
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5698936

>>5694623
>imagination lmao
Cant you niggers fuck off already

>> No.5698940
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5698940

>>5696448
>floaty controls and imprecise combat
Only if you did it wrong. Quack is the first and finest one

>> No.5698946

>>5694351
Yes, because there are certainly no 2D cinematic games.

>> No.5698950

>>5694351
Yeah indiepixel has shown use why 2D is the best!

>> No.5699030
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5699030

>Games were never about immersion
>Games were never about realism
>Games were never about control

Just admit that retro games are a strange hobby that we can't really defend properly unless you're in it for the specific genres, nostalgia, or not wanting to miss out on important games from the past.

>> No.5699183
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5699183

>>5698940
>Quack

>> No.5699184

>>5694351
>t. aracdefag

>> No.5699220

>>5699030
>Games were never about immersion
>Games were never about realism
These are literally true. Only simulation games cared about realism and they were so distant from others that they even had to be given their own genre sub-category.

And 3D games by nature have to take control away due to a lack of precision as environments become more "realistic". Note how modern games often lack things like "jump" or how the character with magnetise their way towards parts of the environment.

>> No.5699230

>>5694351
Saria is a semon demon.

>> No.5699246

>>5699030
Defend from what?

>> No.5699662

3D>2D. Back to your children games faggots.