/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10147656
red coin stars were fucking lazy

>>10147656
The word mario and 64 appears so often in OPs post my eyes glazed over. I've never liked the Mario games or the character.

>>10147656

>>10147656
>Mario has 100 coins to collect.
>Banjo has 100 notes to collect.
>Mario has 8 coins to collect.
>Banjo has 5 jinjos to collect.
>Mario has random challenges and mini-games for the remainder of stars.
>Banjo has random challenges and mini-games for the remainer of jiggies.
In conclusion, fuck you OP for wasting my time.

>>10147754
Mario 64 has only two collection missions. The main focus of each Banjo mission is the collectables with the missions being far less developed and smaller.

>>10147764
Bullshit.
Go on, tell me what collectables besides notes and jinjos reward you with a jiggy.

>>10147769
It was never about the collectables. It was about how you got them and that's something Rare forgot.

>>10147786
>The main focus of each Banjo mission is the collectables
>It was never about the collectables.
You backpedaling faggot.
I'm done with you.

>>10147814
Please take the time to learn manners and not get so upset at online arguments over video games. I never insulted you once Sir and you called me a faggot.

>Rare perfects a genre
>fucking retard idiots misinterpret it and kill it

many such cases. Banjo is a fantastic game and YOU misinterpreted its "missions" or whatever fag word you want to describe level design, which is objectively good in banjo

>>10147834
Banjo's missions are some of the most tedious janku schlock in the existence of 3D platformers. The one with the crocodiles and the one with the stupid fucking crab boss fight which felt horrible to defeat are the only ones I can remember. The majority of Banjo is running around and walking untill you've collected every last collectable.

Also other companies misinterpreted it? Donkey Kong 64 is the game that pushed the collectable element so far it made it borderline tedious.

>>10147656
Well said anon. I thought I was the only one who felt this way about Banjo.

>>10147656
Proof read your post or at the very least paste it in word and use autocorrect.

>>10147656
good thing gex was there to platformer genre

People excuse the bad parts of Yoshi's Island simply because of the art and seemingly-competent level design. It changed the traditional and robust platforming of Super Mario World, into a game about collecting dozens of garbage in the most tedious way possible.

>>10147656
Play more Sonic games, play more Crash and Jak games

Personally I like 3D platformers in general but you might prefer those

>>10147656
You might like Glover or the Chameleon Twist games, they're probably a bit closer to Mario 64. Also Super Magnetic Neo and Donald Duck Goin' Quackers which for Dreamcast which are basically Crash clones. Also check out Billy Hatcher for GameCube if you can, completely different type of game but definitely worth playing imo

>>10147656
You might like the N64 Castlevania games... Again completely different, there is some collecting in them but perhaps not as much as Banjo. Still need to try these myself personally, obviously they are nothing like 2D Castlevania but if you like 3D platformers you might enjoy them

>>10147656
I enjoyed DK64 the first time I played it and that was a collectfuckingthon.

>>10147656
> Banjo Kazooi collecting all the things is the focus while the missions are more of a side dish

This is wrong. Collectibles in Banjo are not the focus. The focus is exploration and puzzle solving. Collectables merely exist as an excuse to interact with the world around you and complete tasks.

Also idk why you think Banjo didn't have "missions" like Mario. It did have missions, they were just more organically part of the level design.

>>10147769
Notes don't award a Jiggy. It doesn't surprise me at all that you don't know this, because your posts have been very uninformed and biased so far. You do not actually have a clear understanding of the differences between Mario and Banjo and shouldn't really be commenting on it if you don't even know that Notes don't award Jiggies for fuck's sake

>>10147850
>The one with the crocodiles and the one with the stupid fucking crab boss fight which felt horrible to defeat are the only ones I can remember

Translation: the game had parts that I found difficult, and because I found it difficult, it inconvenienced me, and it is therefore a bad game.

>>10147656
BK is about exploration and puzzles, there is collecting but it's not all there is. Very few jiggies are just sitting there for you to find, you have to do something else to get them.

I feel like OP's brain just doesn't make the connection that Jiggies like pic rel aren't just "sitting there". Like he doesn't understand that this Jiggy is an expression of the road you took to acquire it, and THAT was the "mission".

You get this Jiggy by first having to spot a difficult-to-notice secret path off to the side, then navigating several jumps that are pretty hard for this early in the game. Then AFTER you get the Jiggy you have the choice to re-navigate the difficult path to the left or to jump into the sea to the right, which is faster but makes you take your chances with the shark. All this is part of the "mission" for this Jiggy.

Or you can notice this Jiggy from up above, then drop and flutter down onto it. In which case it's an expression of you being extra observant, and you get to skip the winding path up to it. Or players who have played Banjo before and know exactly where the Jiggy is can drop onto it this way which helps replayability.

You can also discover it by flying, which seems to defeat the point but really this is just an intended alternate method of discovery and is yet again an expression of some skill you have. It's not just sitting there in a vacuum, the level design is built so that reaching the Jiggy and all the things sourrounding it is the very thing that makes the Jiggy worthwhile.

>>10147850
>the one with the stupid fucking crab boss fight
lmfao are you talking about the one in treasure trove cove

>>10150009
A lot of people were either too dumb to realize the eyes were his weak spot or if they did theu didn't understand they needed to fucking wait the opening Nipper gives you and not just blindly run into the guy

None of this is something to be ashamed of, we were all idiots on our first playthrough. But some fuckers got an ego problem where events like this make them badmouth the game, because they were shit at playing it

raising clanker up out of the water by swimming through his keyhole three times filtered so many casuals

>>10150421
Good

>>10147738
>can't read over 2000 characters without stack overflow

>>10147656
>Mario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOyk5qnamjc

>>10147656
Banjo-Kazooie advanced the genre by having all the missions take place in a continuous sandbox without leaving the level.

Banjo-Tooie advanced upon that
Donkey Kong 64 perfected the genre with five characters in what is essentially five B-K games in one.

>>10151385
Yes. This means that Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie are fundamentally different from a design standpoint of how they approach progression. Mario Sunshine perfected this "mission styled" system by clearly delineating each "episode" of a level. In each episode, there is usually some distinct layout difference, and a sense of actual time progression from the previous episode. This is especially denoted in the later levels with night and day transitions.

"Time" in a BK level is essentially fixed (barring exceptions like Click Clock Wood). The events in a standard BK level exist all at once, and thus can be completed in more or less any order.

One method of level/episode design isn't better than the other, they both have distinct styles that are philosophically divergent.

>>10147656
Banjo Devs didn't "misunderstand" Mario 64. They were doing their own thing.

Listen to what you are saying. 3D platformers started on the ps1 with jumping hop. Than just a bit later the genre was "ruined" (even still being "ruined" decades) later because rare did a style of game and all the other developers were inspired by it? How is that Banjo's fault? Isn't it the fault of the other devs? Or the fault of the players who supported them? And why even bother talking about 3D platformers when according to you the genre died almost as soon as it began.

You're a spurg. You are not even wrong, you don't have enough internal consistency to have a point that can be wrong or right.

>>10147850
>janku
Lose some weight, fatty.

>>10147656
mario 64 is just shit. you don't get to make a slop that's also responsible for more collecthathons and then put the blame on some other arguably better game. that's shifting responsibility from your own slops

>>10151596
I really loved the Act system in Nuts and Bolts a lot, but they didn't actually utilize it very well. You get one nighttime variant for all the Gruntilda Acts, and rarely they will actually toss you a substantial variant. But the vast majority of Acts just have different missions, nothing else. I'm still upset that no Act of Nutty Acres was covered in lava from the volcano, it would have been awesome.

Imagine an Act system in a traditional Banjo 3D platformer. You get 3 Acts, that's 3 variants of each world. Some Jiggies are exclusive to certain Acts, but many/most Jiggies can be acquired in any Act. The first Act is the primary default one, and it has the most Jiggies with 10. Then you unlock the variants, Acts 2 and 3 each have their own 5 new Jiggies that work off of substantial differences to the level design.

Literally off the top of my head:
>Rusty Bucket Bay, but the ship is elsewhere and is not currently docked, and you have the big empty harbor to do other stuff in
>Clanker's Cavern but it's been frozen over with ice, so you can't go underwater
>Treasure Trove Cove, but it's set during the big storm that caused Captain Blubber to crash his ship
>Mumbo's Mountain after the termites have successfully stolen all the wood in the nearby area, and the termite mound has become so sprawling that it covers most of the level
>Gobi's Valley but something has turned it from a desert into a full desert oasis, with the hot sand and unforgiving sun replaced by calm water and shady plant life

This shit would be fucking great.

>>10152257
welcome to baghdad rock city, nigguh!

>>10152265
I don't comprehend the particular poison that has caused your brain to malfunction in this way

>>10152257
Yooka-Laylee has something similar with its expandable worlds, but, not /vr/, etc etc

>>10152290
I think Impossible Lair fucking knocked it out of the park with its genuinely fantastic level vsriants

I'm just trying to go to sleep, dude.

>>10147656
Mario 64 is a collectathon because nintendo lacked the creativity to make the game more focused around movement and obstacles. Ape Escape recognized this failure and made the best series of collectathon games ever.

>>10149534
I didn't find it hard I found it boring, piss easy and the physics felt bad.

>>10149574
I understand how it works and I don't like it. Finding hidden collectables is not my idea of fun. It's just the red coin missions from Mario 64 which were arguably the worst.

>>10150009
Yes
>>10150115
I didn't have trouble with the boss at all. I found it extremely easy and boring. It felt outdated with how simple and rubbish it was. Mario 64 on the other hand has extremely tight boss design. Banjo feels janky as hell.

>>10151385
It didn't advance the genre. It completely misunderstood Mario 64 and made it about collecting shit over interesting missions which eventually in the case of Donkey Kong 64 created a horrible game. It feels like cleaning your room. Mario Sunshine and Galaxy were the true advancements of the genre.

>>10152132
Mario 64 wasn't a collecthathon.

>>10152318
It wasn't a collecthon. Each star had a mission built around it. The goal was finishing missions more so than running around and touching every glowing object.

>>10153141
>The goal was finishing missions more so than running around and touching every glowing object.
>The goal was [[exploration and puzzle-solving]] more so than running around and touching every glowing object.

Do you get this through your thick skull yet

>>10147656
>>10147769
>>10147814
>>10147824
>>10148563
>>10152089
>>10152132
>>10153194
Actual adult men arguing and insulting each other over whether a children's video game from the 90s was a "collectathon" or not.

Fuckin queers.

You sound like one of overly "retro" weeb blogs that hated rare because they weren't Japanese.

3D platformers did not die because of rare. They died because simply loss of interest because of more popular genres.

>>10153131
>It completely misunderstood Mario 64
it's not like Mario 64 though, I think you're the one misunderstanding.
the non-linearity in Mario 64 is a mistake, or mishap, that works in its favor.
but it's inarguable that Banjo-Kazooie builds itself around that non-linearity, and it works in its favor ofc.

because it's an adventure, and less a platformer. so exploring bigger worlds and finding stuff is what makes it Fun.
you only shit on DK64 because you feel compelled to. you're just uninterested in what makes these games enjoyable.

Sunshine is DOGSHIT. it has awful controls, a camera that fights you, cutscenes with poor audio mixing, clipping under platforms, unbelievably god damn terrible objectives in many of the levels, and they're all linear, which is NOT in its favor. when you reach a point in which you can't succeed you have to give up on the entire rest of that level and its objectives.

fuck.that.shitty,awful,game
acquire (good) taste

>>10153461
Mario 64 was intended to be linear. The missions themselves are no less linearly than sunshine. Both offer many ways to take the missions down. Donkey Kong 64 is about as much fun as cleaning a room.

>>10153194
Hiding something out of sight isn't a clever puzzle. It's just tedious. There's a reason newer generations still enjoy Mario 64 but not banjo.

>>10153624
Mini-Games interupting exploring>>>>>whatever platforming challenge Mario64 has until it kicks you out of the level

>>10153626
Because Youtube video tell them too.

>>10153118
I hate how you retards jump back and forth between citing your personal experiences and making statements of fact.

>>10153626
>first played Banjo at age 25, no nostalgia for it because never owned an N64
>had a great time
Sounds like you're full of shit, anon.

Mario64 and Banjo are both great games

>>10147738
This is /vr/ not /v/. If you aren't willing to read a longer post then you shouldn't come here fag. OP at least gave a well thought out opinion rather than opt for the lazy troll baiting most fags do. Got especially bad once they allowed PS2, Gamecube and Xbox on here. Such a damn shame.
>>10147656
I mean I guess I kind of see your point. SM64 is probably still my favorite 3D platformer. If not that then its Spyro the Dragon 1. Despite Spyro being a collectathon which you dislike I still think the game is solid and I consider it a 10/10 perfect video game. It is more solidly built as a video game then even SM64 even if it might not be as technically impressive if that makes sense.

As for what you said about technical limitations on the stars, I am not too sure on that. They probably absolutely could have done something that worked around that so that you can collect them all on one trip in the level. Its that they had a laser focus on the mission design as you put it so that means they intended for the player to get booted after each star. It could be that they figured some players would want to experiment and get the stars at their own pace. So maybe one star they are in one level, rather then get the rest they go to a different level and collect a star there. Whichever they prefer. I think SM64 could have been even better had they had it you can collect them all in one go but whatever still fantastic game.

Collecting in a platformer is fine if not overdone. I don't think bad game design correlates with this concept. Only bad developers make bad games.

So, you're telling me that the brits basically made a 3D Willyvania of sorts? Wtf...

>>10153137
>Mario 64 wasn't a collectathon.
It is if you're 100%ing it.
And if not, well... you didn't beat the game

>but muh sunshine perfected the formula
If you are going for 100% in Super Mario Sunshine, you will need to collect in each level:
100 coins, 8 red coins, 8 secret red coins, another set of 8 red coins (on average), and 30 blue coins.
You will be kicked out of the level for every set of red coins, and be prompted to save your game for every single blue coin.

>>10154365
This is an adult male discussing everything you need to collect in a 20 year old children's video game.

>>10154471
This is a retarded faggot getting mad that people are discussing old games on a retro video game board.

>>10154503
>muh safe space!! i'm allowed to talk about this here!!!

>>10154526

>>10154541
Post more about the coins you can collect in super mario sunshine, faggot.

>>10154561
Post your suicide note, sissy boy :)

>>10154587
>You have to collect le blue coins :) Then the red ones!
Haha, faggot.

>>10154526
Why the fuck are you even alive faggot. Go onions boy elsewhere

>>10153631
There's a point to it kicking you out of the level. It's not supposed to be a collectathon. The areas are open because of technical limitations. Nintendo couldn't do multiple 3D linear levels on the N64 so they chose sandbox levels where they could insert multiple missions into.

>>10153739
No, if anything YouTubers tell people to enjoy Banjo with all the YouTubers such as JonTron sucking it off. If anything Banjo should be more beloved than Mario 64 if it's so good nowadays considering just how much YouTubers deep throat it and how widely available it is but that's not the case because Banjo has aged like shit and running around collecting things in an open environment with janny physics is not fun. That's why Yooka Laylee failed.

>>10154365
One hundred percent doesn't matter. There is a slight collectathon element but it's not necessary. It's just bonus content.

>>10155090
my point is that Banjo-Kazooie is more enjoyable, not that it's possible to wax poetic about something unfun is actually a good thing actually.

>>10156731
Banjo's moment to moment gameplay is plodding and unsatisfying, it doesn't really have the fun figured out.

>>10156767
Translation: I have "Mario 64 speedrunners" brain disease

>>10156771
I don't think highly of Mario 64 either.

>>10154365
>8 red coins, 8 secret red coins, another set of 8 red coins
I don't think 8 red coins are inherently "collectables" in the collectathon sense, because collecting them isn't a long-term goal in the same sense that the blue coins or jinjos are. They could have been replaced with lamps that light up when you touch them and the missions would be the same.

>>10147656
My whole thing I had with Banjo and Kazooie's final boss was a bitch to beat

>>10149574
>>10151596
>>10152257
Only decent analytical posts in this trash fire of a thread.

The Banjo games are obnoxious as hell. Nauseatingly bad characters with annoying dialogue audio. The rest of the game really can't compensate if your presentation is piss poor.

>>10149574
You said it perfectly. This might be the best and most coherent post I've ever seen on /vr/.

I played Mario 64 closer to when it came out and still enjoy playing it today, although 100% isn't worth the tedium of some of the stars. I just tried starting BK earlier this summer and just couldn't force interest after the first few hours. I think I would've enjoyed it had I played it back in the day, and would still feel fondly about it, but playing it for the first time in 2023 feels like a real slog.

A smaller critique is that BK feels like a "kiddie" game that hasn't aged well graphically, while Mario 64 played better to the strengths of the N64's graphics, but that's irrelevant to their gameplay styles.

>>10147656
Sorry but what makes you think that Banjo was necessarily trying to ape Mario 64 in the first place? elements of the collectathon were already in the Donkey Kong Country games and as you said Banjo went a lot further with it than Mario 64 ever did. Also I disagree with the idea that collectathons are even bad or that Mario 64 is the ideal platformer that all others must strive for anyways.

>>10156767
I think thats more of a function of how banjo controls rather than the level design. If Banjo was as acrobatic as mario it wouldnt be as slow. I love banjo tho so Im not necessarily complaining, but im just saying your main issue seems to be with how banjo controls rather than the level design or game’s structure.

>>10154610
RIP anon :(

>>10153121
The only difference with this and a Mario star is the one-line hint you get at the start in Mario.

how is this?

I wonder if OP ever came to terms with this series and other 3D platformers. There are plenty of good ones out there

>>10162850
I haven't played it but I remember watching the videos for every update, it looks very fun and well-made

>>10158632
I've played romhacks that swap banjo for Mario and still dislike it.

>>10147656
>In Mario 64 there was missions where you'd focus on collecting things such as the coin missions but they weren't the main focus and were more so filler.

My guy...you realize that "collect a bunch of stars" is literally how you beat the game, right? It's okay to not like Banjo but ffs don't pretend that it's objective fact that Banjo is worse than M64.

>most 3d platformers followed Banjo Kazooie in stuffing their levels with as many collectables and thingamajigs as possible which led to the genre dying.
This is not true. The genre evolved into open world slop which does pretty much the same thing minus focus on platforming.

Not even going to bother to read the rest of your post if you still pushing this falsehood.