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78022120 No.78022120 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

How do you feel about firearms in fantasy?

>> No.78022143

I feel like they should be suited to the setting that they exist in.

>> No.78022160

All of my fantasy winds up having them at some point.

>> No.78022166

I like them but I think a lot of designers struggle with incorporating them for some reason

>> No.78022186

Balancing seems to be a challenge for the d20 system if pathfinder and D&D's gunslingers are anything to go by.

>> No.78022280

They should be balanced around expensive ammo, long reload times, and being single shot. So good for armies, or an opening salvo, but not a mainstay for adventurers.

>> No.78022321

I like the idea of a fighter having it as an option for a one time possibility to deal a lot of damage in combat. Having one pistol wouldn't be too crazy as an option but isn't something you would take the time to reload in the middle of a fight if you have a sword as well but good for a quick surprise.

>> No.78022326

Yeah, I think they're a cool class but you really need modern firearms to be included in order to run them and even then they're still expensive as fuck. And after all that effort they work out to being about on par with an optimized bow wielder. It's the reload times, which is what kills crossbows too.

>> No.78022388

Okay as long setting logic holds (as much as it can in make believe), generally aesthetically pleasing, and the rules is well tested.

Warhammer Fantasy is generally a good example (as long it's within the Imperial Realm). It's a relatively stable and tested technology, but still new enough that's expensive and untrustworthy for many people. Has it's mechanical merits/drawbacks, and can be used to expand upon the setting and immersion of the players (i.e. Why does these northern provinces don't use guns? Because they're dirt poor, and see guns as dishonourable).

Pathfinder's default campaign setting, Golarion, is fucking mess of a kitchen-sink if you use all of it. You have gunpowder, but also like super-arcane tech, stone-age primitives, and classical civilization side-by-side. Generally its recommended to focus one-part of the world, and go for that.

>> No.78022413

if they take 1 minute to load and you have to keep your powder dry then why not? big damage potential, low accuracy, can have creative uses like launching stuff. you can balance it making powder scarce or dangerous

>> No.78022427
File: 1.21 MB, 1535x1024, Gunmurai.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I think that they're cool.

>> No.78022472

I wish more games had matchlock guns. Everything is an adventure when you're carrying around a lit match around while covered in black powder charges.

>> No.78022486
File: 104 KB, 736x545, D7EF2781-323E-4EA7-A9DB-0E26F3688D47.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Aesthetically they fit
Mechanically there is no reason to use crossbows then ever again unless you can’t stealth with them. I wish they had more unique traits but I don’t think that’s going to happen

>> No.78022506

Why would they have low accuracy? Guns have always been accurate compared to most ranged weapons.

>> No.78022510

I like them.

>> No.78022549

This, and I believe that's how they were first used historically too. A single use, opportunistic weapon that could potentially end a fight instantly. A good "Ace in the Hole" but not something to entirely rely on.

>> No.78022608

If you want to include risks like your powder getting wet or having your powder horn detonate on your person then there could be good reasons to still include crossbows over firearms. Additionally, guns are loud and expensive, while crossbows are less so. They're perfectly distinct.

>> No.78022660
File: 76 KB, 634x1000, Corwin of Amber by Pti-SPB.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hey. I need seventy tons of jeweler's rouge. Here's a sack of diamonds, don't ask questions.

>> No.78022662

Fantasy =/= Medieval Europe with dragons and dungeons.

>> No.78022694

Depends on the setting. If the fantasy is pushing late medieval then probably. If I'm running bronze age dragon pass-tier shit then guns won't show up, unless I have a laser blaster in the gonzo crashed space ship one-off dungeon.

>> No.78022750

If it makes sense for the era/region/whatever other factor, why not? Fantasy is a clusterfuck of retarded anarchonism already. As long as it's pre-cartridge, I could care less.

>> No.78022768

I've used them before by giving the PC a brace of 4 pistols that were just reworked single cast wands of fireball without the aoe damage. They took long enough to reload that they could only be on a short rest.

>> No.78022788

gamewise maybe but historically theyd be used up close or in volleys, and mainly against armor. medievally speaking

>> No.78022872

In battle, yeah. People used them for hunting and protecting livestock as well.

>> No.78022911

Didn't they have accuracy issues before the widespread use of rifling?

>> No.78022941

Earlier firearms weren't that great

>> No.78023003

Depends on the setting and how ubiquitous magic is. If magic is rare but powerful, then it becomes a way for martials to level the playing field, as they used to say, God made men, Colt made them equal. If magic is common, then you actually have an issue where the early stage firearms that you need to make to get to more modern weapons are simply not worth investing in because anyone can just pick up some magical doodad instead.

This is actually the situation I have in my D&D campaign, which is a homebrew high magic setting. Instead of early firearms or canons, the most powerful weapons instead use disposable rune stones that are used to cast powerful spells through a kind of crew-served up-sized arcane focus. Artificers already more or less use guns as they create gadgets to serve as a focus to their spells, and over time are trying to miniaturize the runestone weapons so as to essentially make a version of their hand-held arcane foci that non-casters can use. Functionally, the end result would be a firearm, just using a different path of technological advancement that relies on magic instead of chemistry and metallurgy.

>> No.78023022

It depends on what you consider accuracy issues. At the ranges most fights are taking place it wouldn't be an issue.

>> No.78023047

Well in this context we are talking about in comparison to a bow or crossbow

>> No.78023086

depends entirely on the weapon, a full length musket can hit a guy standing in the open at 25 yards but an equivalent hand gun? it wont even go through his mail at that range never mind hit him

>> No.78023134

I guess I was thinking of before hand guns were invented. A handgun will be less accurate but only because its harder to hold steady.

>> No.78023337

well, that and smaller charge, short barrel, no rifling, no sights, ignition delay etc.

>> No.78023425

Longer barrels don't make a gun more accurate.

>> No.78023471

I have a lot of issue with people trying to force flintlocks and percussion guns into medieval-ish settings. It sticks out to me as sorta donut-steel-y.

How I have my setting set up is early modern pike-and-shot tech level, where guns are common among non-military forces and ubiquitous in armies/militias. I balance them mostly around cost of ammunition and flexibility in combat. Yes you CAN kill that man there in one shot, but can you get your sword out fast enough to get the man behind him?

>> No.78023542
File: 282 KB, 700x556, 1513335547481.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Funnily enough, very short-barreled harquebuses were the first commonly-available firearms, in the mid 15th century. Even smaller pistol balls from short firearms would punch right through chainmail.

>> No.78023574
File: 108 KB, 564x846, 1520088679410.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

*handgonnes, rather

harquebuses were simple matchlock designs that appeared not long after the handgonnes of the mid 1400s

>> No.78023758

I immediately heard this song when I looked at that picture.

>> No.78023782

Fortifications used to arsenal some oversized extra long muskets called wall guns precisely because the extra length made them more accurate

>> No.78023894
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the benefit to wall guns was that they were generally more powerful, and had longer barrels so that their powder charges would burn more fully and produce more pressure. They weren't just long, they were oversized in all dimensions.

From a technical standpoint, shorter barrels are more accurate than longer barrels. The tradeoff is that longer barrels allow longer burn times and more pressure behind a projectile, which leads to greater range.

>> No.78023929

If your setting has matches its kinda hard to rationalize not having percussion cap guns. like not even "they didn't think to invent fireworks or gunpowder" you can literally just use the match heads as both primer and propellant if all the alchemists are cursed to never combine sulfur saltpeter and charcoal cause it "wakes the dead' or some such.

>> No.78023970

The wall guns in this image for example are later style guns from the Boxer period in China. These would have been rifled guns, a mix of breechloading and muzzle-loading designs. You could fire wall guns at enemy units from significantly greater range than you could with normal infantry rifles, which gave you harassing ability before and during sieges.

>> No.78024030

They should fit the setting. They work great in a frontiers setting in a New World based on American myth and history, but you'd obviously use different firearms for a high- and late-medieval vibe.

I'm personally fond of Terry Pratchett's "gonne," as seen in Men-at-Arms. It's semi-self-aware and basically acts as a cursed magical weapon that infects its user with the ease of which it can kill people. It's also incredibly jealous, so goes out of its way to kill anyone who might try to make more than just it. One of my settings runs on that, so the few gonnes in existence are often kept under sorcerous lock and key and when one gets loose it's like a secretive murderous devil running amock.

>> No.78024043

my setting doesn't have matches, it has slow-fuse and flint. Besides that, matchhead percussion caps are a more recent answer to difficulty in acquiring conventionally made caps, which were generally made with fulminates of certain metals like mercury.

>> No.78024060

GURPS does it quite well. Long reload times and risk of malfunctioning.

>> No.78024181

Older varieties of match heads use similar chemistry as caps but like you said "mercury" so they're not much of a thing anymore.

Point is anything in a setting that makes lighting a candle or camp fire convenient can be used to touch off a gun be it magical cantrip or alchemical novelty, D&D and pathfinder inevitably have gun classes because easy fire starting exists in those settings.

>> No.78024361

So long as it's appropriate to the setting, I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it. If your setting is late renaissance then you better have firearms, but if it's based on early middle ages Europe then it doesn't make the most amount of sense unless it's justified.

>> No.78024414

with shotguns and i assume smoothbores in general they do

>> No.78024557
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Small arm firearms have only recently (the last 100 or so years)become more commonplace among the magic wielding supersoldier nobility once they became reliably deadly (Range, Firerate, Penetration etc.) to make a difference

They have been ubiqtuous among the commoners since ever

>> No.78024652

Why? Your guy can do what people that wanted extra shots did back in the day, carry multiple pieces. If you want to go soft, just have an indeterminate number of pistols your character can fire, and are assumed he reloads afterwards. Wanna go hard, have "slots" in DnD terms, where you have a number of weapons that can be fired once before you're out. It's not that difficult to make flintlocks and muskets work in DnD.

>> No.78024910

There is precedence for such a disparity. In long ago china the repeating crossbow as considered a common self defense and militia weapon suitable for any shmuck to fend off a starving shirt sleeve equipped bandit with a hail of pointy inconvenience, but was virtually useless against anyone with the resources for actual armor.

>> No.78024991

I know about that.

>> No.78025179
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If your fantasy setting has any sort of superior racial craftsmanship be it dwarves gnomes elves ect, how do you justify not having compressed air guns? Big bore models kill just as well as any crossbow, and air is clean unlike black powder letting you get away with faster firing breach loaders or even repeaters

>> No.78025226

Because pistols are really expensive compared to a normal weapon, DnD is already on a tight wealth curve, and having to enchant several weapons puts you even further behind

>> No.78025307

I think designers generally worry too much about realism and the effect of guns on armor in a setting where you can paint yourself with woad to bind an eagle spirit to your chest.

>> No.78025362

> pistols are really expensive compared to a normal weapon
They really shouldn't be, a blade needs a decent amount of steel in order to make something that holds an edge, whereas black powder guns are all wrought iron aside from whatever spring drives the ignition mechanism.

>> No.78025390

In DnD usually the consideration is that they are mostly custom and not a lot of people know how to make them which drives the price way up beyond just raw material costs

>> No.78026986

So what? You let the Fighter have a custom-fitted suit of plate and chain, what prevents you from letting the gunslinger have his guns? It's not like DnD is aiming to be realistic in any front, so just suspend your fucking disbelief in that regard. Maybe the guy makes his own guns, anyway.

>> No.78027022

Fine with guns if they and the setting are tailored to suit them.
Fucking despise gun-autists.

>> No.78027061

>If you want to include risks like your powder getting wet or having your powder horn detonate on your person then there could be good reasons to still include crossbows over firearms.

Crossbows also had problems with getting wet. Bows as well, but with a bow you could remove the string within seconds to store it and keep it dry. It was also easy to carry and bowstrings and string the bow within seconds.

>> No.78027067

Late medieval guns were really inaccurate, guns packed a punch sure, much more than a crossbow or a bow, but lack of accuracy and how slow they were to reload made them not as useful

>> No.78027097

>Longer barrels don't make a gun more accurate.

It depends on a lot of factors. The most advanced marksman rifles today have shorter, bull barrels. It has to do with barrel harmonics which is more complicated than I can explain. For a blackpowder weapon, the propellant burns slower than that of a smokeless cartridge. So the longer barrel allows more time for the blackpowder to burn and become gas. This increases the speed of the projectile which can increase accuracy, but also definitely increases the hitting power. If the firearm has sights, a longer barrel will increase the sight radius, which makes aiming somewhat easier.

>> No.78027230

So were bows. A smoothbore musket it more accurate than a bow of the same time period. An archer isn’t hitting a specific man 100 yards away and neither is a musket.

>> No.78027305

Cool but I hate the trope "but they are extremely rare" as soon as this shit gets invented nobles would want to mass produce it for their soldiers and people would try to copy it all over. Even if you get shitty knock-offs. The idea you can just pick up something, spend maybe a couple of hours getting used to it and then be able to kill people and didn't need needs years of training is amazing.
People tend to forget this one of the primary reasons it was chosen over the bow. The fact it was so easy to use and it was relatively easy to manufacture.

>> No.78027343

Longer barrels have little effect on shotgun spread, and almost no effect on the accuracy of smoothbore muskets. They DO affect range and velocity, which can in some cases aid accuracy, but it's not a mechanical, intentional benefit.

>> No.78027404

Problem with that is your warfare paradigm shifts immediately from the Renaissance to the Revolutionary War.

>> No.78027412
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I love them, that being said, I think it works best when you use fantasy firearms as fantasy firearms, where they can reload fast enough to be comparable to a crossbow, or slightly slower, and getting shot in the shoulder by a bullet has about the same results you would give to an arrow or bolt slamming home. I doubt most people who would want to play a gunner in fantasy wants to fire off one round, then either drop the gun they wanted to use in favor of a sword or a bow instead because they don't want to spend a minute reloading between shots
Leave your weapon autism as the door

>> No.78027422

Leave your weapon autism at the door*

>> No.78027532

Guns weren't rare in the Renaissance. Matchlocks were common in 1500 and handguns were known across Europe in 1400.

>> No.78027600

Hussites were really into guns in 1410's-1430's. The words for pistol and howitzer come from them.

>> No.78028052

My weapon autism is the gate and the key.

>> No.78028442

The fact that crossbows are much faster to reload is a myth, if you want something with a good reach and be combat effective you need gear to help you load it after each shot. So by not forcing a person to wait an entire round if the crossbowman don't need to, you are actually doing it in a more realistic fashion.

>> No.78029127

I love them, made them widespread and commonly used in basically any 3.5 setting I make. Every group I've run loved them and it also made people start paying attention to various kinds of cover and stances like kneeling, prone etc. at lower levels. At higher levels it made them pay more attention to gunlines of weaker enemies because they soon realized that muskets left unchecked can put a serious hurt even on a high level character

>> No.78029162
File: 228 KB, 710x340, Let's do this together.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>This shit again
Less than two months. That's how long we've been free.

>> No.78029171

I like them. I don't know why writers are so autistic about firearm reload times but have people firing crossbows three times in six seconds.

>> No.78029421

>>relatively easy to manufacture
The gun itself? Sorta. But blackpowder is actually really difficult to produce cheaply until you build up the infrastructure for it and get economy of scale going. Early on firearms are going to be just too expensive to just toss at some peasent levy.

Early firearms aren't primarily getting adopted because they're cheap or because it's easy to train peasants to use. It's because guns kill even armored guys dead good. The former only become really pronounced advantages as the technology matured and proliferated.

>> No.78030496

No doubt, but mass production starts to indicate a move towards the musket and bayonet as the primary troop weapon, armour decreasing in relevance, cannon, etc.
If you want pike blocks, archers, banners, knights and catapults then you're shit outta luck.

>> No.78032005

In the edition I am looking at
Full-Plate is 1500 gp. A single pistol is 1000 gp and cartridges (which everyone upgrades too for reload times) are a whopping 12 gp a piece. It adds up pretty quick in my experience compared, even when you are allowed gunsmithing.

>> No.78032296

Unrealistic as it may be, I think they're best done as unique to one group or culture. In my world it's American dwarves.

>> No.78033094

Both crossbows and bows outperformed guns in the era of earlier firearms. I think the problem is that people assume any gun has to be a super OP weapon.

>> No.78035400

No lead on setting, steel and iron rust so good ammo has to be used fast and kept protected from the elements (also harder to make) and softer metals ain't going to pierce 3mm steel or do that much damage after it, no mil-surp so decent pews are rare
They are just a "fuck this one guy" button the party can put some time and money into for special ocations unless it's some high end belt-fed rifle like that one from Hunt: showdown, which is prob shooting at them because they tried to erp again

>> No.78035830
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I like them in medieval settings, as they were around at the time and complete the theme. They are the next stage of missile weapon; thrown>bow>crossbow>firearm, each more powerful but slower to use than the previous.

>> No.78036004
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Make them less fangled and more like the ones used in the time of plate mail and they fit quite well. I like to have orcs and goblins use them a lot, as they arnt to worried about safety and it doesnt rain much in caverns.

>> No.78037164

Depends on the year/place

>> No.78037217
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>> No.78037306

Hand cannons are pretty cool and you never see them in trpgs

>> No.78038259

Maybe don't follow rulebooks like a slave and allow some freedom for your players. Especially when the books are written by people who have zero understanding of medieval economics.

>> No.78038284

Ok but I was talking about firearms in a specific system and why they are difficult.

>> No.78038741
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If Critical Role has them, they must be great!

>> No.78038767

It is a well known fact that a somali with a kalashnikov beats any wizard

>> No.78039950

You're the only one complaining, anon.

>> No.78041545

they work fin in game w/o hitpoints, hitpoints do not model firearms well. i use D6 system so 5D damage is 5D damage, sword bow gun doesn't matter.

>> No.78041637

Personally, I like them. And with most settings being bland kitchen sink fantasy they're just as easy to incorporate as some primitive bronze age culture.
They don't need to be radically different from other ranged weapons like bows or crossbows. That's some bullshit most fantasy nerds have stuck in their heads that they were incredibly inaccurate or dealt the damage of mini nukes. They had a similar effective range as bows and crossbows.
Like other anons have mentioned, pike and shot formations were just evolutions directly out of the volley tactics of bowmen or crossbowmen.
Potentially it could pierce lower quality or simpler armor. Bulletproof comes from testing that would be done on cuirasses. But a .70 calibre ball could punch through simple armor much like a hardened bodkin arrowhead.
If you wanted to incorporate realism by saying players need to keep their powder dry, consider that bowstrings went slack when they were wet.
In addition, yes they were slow to reload. Iirc the fastest drilling at the relevant time was Mauritz of Nassau who could have a line fire once ready to go every 15 or so seconds. But crossbows are very slow to reload as well, depending on the mechanism of course. A goat's foot is far faster than a windlass.
>t. hisfag
Hope this helps some GMs who want to run firearms in their games.

>> No.78041906

benedict said to tell you to go polish your knobs elsewhere.

>> No.78041917

without hitpoint bloat you mean?

>> No.78041921


>> No.78042003

This seems more like people underestimating bows.

>> No.78042048

It would be if mercer knew how to balance a class.

>> No.78042107

In my experience most people aren't really aware what it is like to be shot by both so guns seem more scary because they are louder.

>> No.78042359


Best answer in the whole thread and nailed the effectiveness of early firearms. There's a reason why many armies abandoned bows once firearms became easy to access.

>> No.78042433

Yeah I agree. People think "gun" and they think of a modern, highly accurate and ridiculously deadly weapon.

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