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77140727 No.77140727 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

How would you fix Dungeon World?

Let's take as a given it's doing some things right and some things wrong. What do you see as its most glaring problems, and what are the solutions?

>> No.77140800

Start from scratch with Apocalypse World?
Vincent (dude that made AW) doesn’t really beat about the bush about the fact that most *world games are just a cargo cult that copied most of the mechanics without understanding why they exist.

>> No.77140849

>>77140727
Reduce the amount of rape.

>> No.77140860

>>77140727
Defy Danger is terrible. Totally remove it.

>> No.77140906

>>77140727
Make it clear that the character name and description checkboxes aren't literally mandatory and more a quick-play aid to silence hordes of screaming internet retards.
In fact, almost all my edits would be just shortcircuiting the memes spouted by screaming internet retards.

>> No.77141102

>>77140727
Have you tried playing D&D?

>> No.77141181
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77141181

I think that Dungeon World is one of the worst PbtA games out there. However, it can be fixed, and has already been fixed by others.

The two most noteworthy rewrites of Dungeon World are Unlimited Dungeons:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JIOhe5uSeZM4rkqeOJaQC7CQ1lOyRhRB/view

And Homebrew World 1.5.1:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369375527829504010/784639180151324682/Homebrew_World_1.5.1.pdf

I would definitely give both a look, if you want an improved version of Dungeon World.

Unlimited Dungeons is for longer campaigns, whereas Homebrew World 1.5.1 is intended for one-offs and other very short games.

>> No.77141201

>>77140906
This.
A lot of anons get hung up on the Moves meme too, when really it just codifies when rolls are applicable.
I've only known the spergiest of GMs to see whatever I want to do (attack an enemy, dodge a flying arrow, see what my character knows on X when it comes up, spot checks etc) applies on a hard coded check-list of Moves.
It's just D&D lite, if you say you're attacking the goblin, you're cool to just roll to attack. No need to check what Move it may come under and when it does.

>> No.77141520

The problem with dungeon world is that it has no focus. The good pbta games, like monster of the week or monsterhearts, have an incredibly narrow focus, and that's why they work. DW's genre focus is "d&d," which is so broad as to be meaningless. If you want a rules light d&d experience you have shit like sharp swords and sinister spells, white hack, black hack, or into the odd. Or, shit, something like Dungeon Crawl Classics, which isn't d&d at all, but attempts to capture the feeling of d&d, which arguably is what dw attempts and fails.

So, i'd totally gut the system, and just keep the gm advice, which is decent.

>> No.77141532

>>77141201
>it just codifies when rolls are applicable
With a side order of "think about the fiction, not the mechanics" to be fair.
Basically, if you primarily enjoy the mechanical tinkering aspect of RPGs DW isn't for you.

>> No.77142071

>>77141201
>>77141532
I know many people don't like it (or don't know how to handle it), but I do like the "move" approach and the partial success mechanic.
It feels much more natural and easier to keep the fiction moving.

>> No.77142112

>>77142071
I think all of the complaints/criticisms I've heard of pbta style moves come from people with a fundamental misunderstanding of how they work.

>> No.77142166

>>77140849
DOUBLE IT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7racSSk7w0

>> No.77142167

>>77142071
Oh and btw, are there any system other
than PbtA that is narrative based and/or uses partial success?

>> No.77142277

>>77142167
Forged in the Dark systems, which are a weird offspring of pbta. It's not narrative based, but the old alternity system had degrees of success. Ditto the old deadlands system, now that i think about it.

The interesting thing about pbta isnt the fail/partial/good/great success mechanic, it's that each move has fairly specific terms for what success actually accomplishes.

>> No.77142282
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77142282

>>77141181
>Kiara

>> No.77142310

>>77140727
Looking at this choad makes me want to vomit.

>> No.77143086

>>77142167
Afaik Genesys has something of it as the dice results cancel each other out and dictate a narrative with partials in it, also depending how you fluff it's dice results, Cortex is a close fit too.

>> No.77143193

>>77142167
Revolution d100
mix up Cthulhu and FATE
the percentile roll is the perfect metric for degrees of success

>> No.77143211

>>77141181
Homebrew World looks neat, thanks anon

>> No.77143293

>>77140727
Build it on any system except PBTA. It's neat in concept, but god is it unfun to play and run for more than a one-shot

>> No.77143640

>>77143293
this. who wants to play "argue with the gm" other than shitlords are spregs?

>> No.77143762

>>77140860
>Defy Danger is terrible. Totally remove it.
Seems sensible. What would you replace it with?

>> No.77143795

>>77142277
>The interesting thing about pbta isnt the fail/partial/good/great success mechanic, it's that each move has fairly specific terms for what success actually accomplishes.
Can you expand on this? Than you.

>> No.77143833
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77143833

>>77140860
>>77143762

It is worth noting in >>77141181 that while Unlimited Dungeons sees fit to preserve the original Defy Danger, Homebrew World replaces it. The author of Homebrew World even wrote an article explaining why:

https://spoutinglore.blogspot.com/2019/05/defy-danger-restated.html

>> No.77144114

>>77143833
>https://spoutinglore.blogspot.com/2019/05/defy-danger-restated.html
Yeah that'd s pretty good start.

>> No.77144654

>>77143640
How is it 'argue with the gm'?

>> No.77147331

>>77143795
Generally, each move has a list of very specific things that you can gain on a success. Usually, 7-9 is "pick one" and 10+ is pick 2 or 3. I know specifically in Monster of the Week, "investigate a myatery" has very specific questions you can ask the gm, relating to the monster you're hunting. Some people dont like the limitation, but it really reinforces what the game is about; youre hunting monsters, these things are the relevent info to get that done. Also, the role play should inform the move. The player should never go "im rolling investigate a mystery." They should go "well, as a professional, I have a CSI kit that is full of different alchemical and magical solutions to test these claw marks." Then the mc says "alright, that sounds like youre trying to investigate a mystery, to find out what kind of monster it is."

Either way, each move has very specific success states, which actually makes >>77143640
hard is a good pbta system. Part of the reason why "defy danger" is such a shit move, and shows Koebel's misunderstanding of the system, is the outcomes are incredibly vague.

>> No.77147478

>>77147331
Right - you're saying PbtA is aimed at very focused games, and Dungeon World is very unfocused?

Or can you think of a PbtA style game that would work for more unfocused, free-form, let's-play-and-see play?

>> No.77148113

>>77147478
>PbtA style game that would work for more unfocused
No. PbtA are made to be specific. They're meant to be suited to one single narrative, be it "Let's take a vampire to prom" or "Let's stop Sauron".

If you want a light, versatile system play RISUS. It's barebone, but effective in portraying characters defined by their roles and clichés, very quick to prepare and easy to run. Better suited to one shots or short campaign.

FATE, especially the Accelerated version, insists on flashy action, pulpy scenes and characters that change, but do not necessarily improve during the course of the game. No more than 5 sessions long, it handles every genre but horror, since characters are supposed to be heroic.

These two are completely setting and genre agnostic, if you want genre specific advice, make genre specific questions.

>> No.77148246

>>77140727
I'd start by firing that guy

>> No.77148276

>>77147478
I mean, pbta games are "lets play and see what happens games," but they are very genre focused. Monster of the Week is the one I am most familiar with and it stays in its lane; x-files, buffy, and supernatural. The game master needs a monster, and an idea of what the monster does, but beyond that it can be very improv heavy. But, because you have genre rules, you always have a baseline to get back to, as players or as the Mc.

Something like dungeon world is weaker, because the genre rules are less defined. Fantasy means so many things to so many people, and the classes aren't narrative tropes as much as game mechanic tropes. It just doesnt work as well.

>> No.77148443

>>77140860
defy danger is good, remove all other moves and just use defy danger for everything

>> No.77151146

>>77141520
>Or, shit, something like Dungeon Crawl Classics, which isn't d&d at all, but attempts to capture the feeling of d&d, which arguably is what dw attempts and fails.

DCC is quite literally house rules D20 D&D.

>> No.77151460

>>77142167
Don't Rest Your Head has binary success/failure, but the results are "colored" by which dice pool had the highest rolls aka "dominates." Players have up to three dice pools--Discipline, Exhaustion, and Madness--and the GM just has a massive Pain pool, and depending on which one dominated during a roll, a success could come at a cost or even become a pyrrhic victory and a lost battle can still help you win the war, so to speak. The effect is that while success or failure is binary, there are multiple different forms it can take that can feel like partial successes or losses.

>> No.77151764

>>77140727
Get rid of HP. In an attempt to mix dress PBtA in OSR skin, the creator absolutely fucking missed the point of either; it's a perfect example of what >>77140800 was talking about.

PBtA's big thing is that rolls always matter. They always move the story forward one way or another and you should never have someone roll "just because." While DW writes about this, it does not put it into practice when it comes to fighting monsters. Succeeding on an attack roll in DW just means a monster's HP get lower. That's it. There's no narrative change, just a description of a sword slash and the GM noting that the goblin's HP went from 6 to 4. Rinse and repeat until all the goblins you're fighting are dead.

This is anathema to PBtA's core principal of dice rolls always having significance. If you don't want monsters dying to a single action and roll, I totally get that, but "number's lower now, do it again" is a shitty solution. Have a successful Commit Violence roll or whatever result in a significant wound that puts the foe in a bad spot or lets the heroes outflank the enemy or something else that *changes the scene and the terms of the fight.* This leads to interesting choices---will the enemies surrender now, or fight with such a gross handicap, or try something stupid and desperate, etc.--rather than repeating combat rolls until one side's number hits 0.

God, fuck DW.

>> No.77152504

Dungeon world's biggest problem is that PbtA fans are the worst. they spend so much time reading blogs and playing arty farty bullshit where the the PCs are teenage vampires crying about their feelings, that they forget what real games look like. "Oh no, an rpg with hit points! How could anyone play an rpg with hit points!!! There isn't a tight enough focus, you can't just play a game where you go on adventures and kill monsters and loot dungeons, noooOOOO!!!"

well ok that and at least one of the authors is a sex pest with a stupid haircut. two problems

>> No.77152549

>>77140727
Anything made by a person who looks like this who finger-raped one of his PCs for the lulz shouldn't be saved

>> No.77153421

>>77143640
People who played D&D before 3e. So much mother may I in those editions.

>> No.77153469

>>77152504
Even people who aren't fans of PbtA say that Dungeon World is a piece of shit that doesn't accomplish what it sets out to do. Isn't there a thread on /pol/ you could be on to vent about the trannies you lust after but feel too ashamed to own up to to bash them instead?

>> No.77153754

>>77153469
im extremely not a fan of PbtA and I find DW to be one of the more tolerable examples, as it's a nice compromise between your typical PbtA mechanics and a real game. also who the hell said anything about trannys, you brought that shit up.

>> No.77153773
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77153773

>>77140727

>> No.77153794

>>77140727
>https://spoutinglore.blogspot.com/2019/05/defy-danger-restated.html
The more I read about DW the more I refuse to believe anyone has ever played more than a couple sessions of it. You might as well be sitting around and telling (terrible) stories.

>> No.77153892

Build a new core system from the ground up?

The basic idea of giving players abit more narrative control over what their shit does and being a little more freeform isn't terrible but PbtA is unironically one of the worst systems ever.

Just strip down 5e even further. Core stats are the same, keep proficiency/saves and advantage/disadvantage. And just make a standard template for each broad group of spells and weapons and give each class a gimmick a level.

Just let your players flavor that shit however they want like it's Mutants and Masterminds.

>> No.77153904

-Actually being good at teaching the game. I remember when I first grabbed it, having no prior experience with PbtA games, and I thought it was nonsensical crap. It was thanks to a guide that ACTUALLY took time to explain these sort of games that now I see the charm in the system itself.
-Make it clear that Race, Alignment and Descriptions should be an optional thing that can be filled with anything you and the GM agree on, like pretty much every other third party Playbook does.

>> No.77154160

>>77153892
this. Looking at it like a typical rpg, it's a decent enough rules-lite improv game for when there's not enough prep time for D&D, with fun little class abilities and sections with good DMing advice. of course there's room for improvement but if anything they should have dropped more pbta baggage. lmao at the idea it would somehow be better if it was even LESS of a game and more of a ~~~collaborative storytelling experience~~~ like most pbta bullshit

>> No.77156976

>>77148443
>defy danger is good, remove all other moves and just use defy danger for everything
https://spoutinglore.blogspot.com/2020/02/defying-danger-rpg.html

>> No.77156997

>>77151764
>PBtA's big thing is that rolls always matter. They always move the story forward one way or another and you should never have someone roll "just because." While DW writes about this, it does not put it into practice when it comes to fighting monsters. Succeeding on an attack roll in DW just means a monster's HP get lower. That's it. There's no narrative change, just a description of a sword slash and the GM noting that the goblin's HP went from 6 to 4. Rinse and repeat until all the goblins you're fighting are dead.
Never played DW, and this is the reason why. I simply don't get why you'd build a narrativist game and then have it be about ... ticking down the hitpoint counter with roll-to-attack empty narration moves.

>> No.77157047

>>77153892
>PbtA is unironically one of the worst systems ever.

nah

I don't want everything to run on PbtA rules, but it's not bad. It's just bad when it is used by people who don't understand why/how it works (like in Dungeon World).

>> No.77157684

I think I just want a conflict resolution, fortune in the middle general fantasy game engine instead of task resolution, fortune at the end pseudo-world simulators.

Doesn't really look like DW is that.

>> No.77157862
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77157862

>>77151764
This is a good post and you should feel good anon.

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