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[ERROR] No.75092057 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Would you let someone play an atheist cleric like this one?

>> No.75092081

Sure, why not? If we're playing D&D, I see no reason to be restrictive and controlling. It's the easy-going casual RPG, play whatever you want.

>> No.75092115

This is pretty bad.

Considering that there's a dozen predecessors, including the Ur-Priest (clerics that didn't worship Gods but instead stole power from them), shugenja (divine casters that didn't worship gods but instead gained spells from raw spiritual forces), druids (priests who gained power from nature rather than divinity), and evil clerics (clerics that oppose good gods and act generally like edge lords), there really is no place for such a shitty half-assed measure.

>> No.75092146

>>75092057

I have problems with this implementation of the concept. It inherently recognizes that the divine exists, but opposes it anyway.
Actual heresy was never about denying god, but more about disagreeing with the particular interpretations, rules, and practices of the larger church.

>> No.75092169

But that's heresy, not apostasy. Dude still has faith in his dog, just in a way that contradicts and goes against mainstream/orthodox doctrine.

>> No.75092174

“1rst” level.

Maybe do some proofreading?

>> No.75092257

>>75092057
If they're heretical, they aren't atheist anon.

>> No.75092267

>>75092057
This can be done with arcana domain.
its thematic too

>> No.75092273

>>75092057
>Having views that stray from orthodoxy and wanting to bring justice to a sect that's strayed from its goal and gone corrupt
Neat, could have potentia--
>undead are just misunderstood and churches and angels are the real bad guys
Lost me.

>> No.75092477

>>75092057
I would have no issue with a sectarian cleric character unless it invites unwanted friction with the rest of the party. But I would at least ask them if they considered playing a warlock instead.

>> No.75092582

I love the idea of just flipping off clerics instead of using a holy symbol. I wanna build a punk rock cleric now, just some rude dude with a ‘tude

>> No.75092858

You really had to make a whole thread for this even though you got plenty of (you)s in the other one?

>> No.75093002

It's not even remotely atheist. So no.

>>75092273
>>undead are just misunderstood
Not sure where you're getting that from.

>> No.75093080

>>75092057
Edginess aside, the biggest problem I'm seeing is that this presumes that the church is absolutely evil and must be rebelled against. It's inherently incompatible with any setting where organized religion is benign.
Only way I can see this working is if the whole premise of a campaign is destroying the church with facts and logic. Otherwise you'll end with dumb shit like
>my character wants to expose all the wrongdoings of the church!
>okay well there's a service being conducted for the local parish if you want to sit in and watch for anything suspect
>some rolls later
>you see the pastor is being a little pushy when the donation plate comes around. it likely has to do with his desire to have a fresco commissioned this year
>I want to make a big speech about how it's wrong for him to behave like that and rouse the people into a riot against the church!
Absolutely exaggerated but what the fuck else should they do when their whole class revolves around shit like that?

>> No.75093254

>>75093080
Yeah and in my opinion organised religion should come in exactly three forms:
1. Benign
2. Explicitly Evil
3. Appeasement (worship an evil god against your will or to avoid consequences)
I don't find 'pretends to be good but is actually evil' particularly interesting because that's just reality.

>> No.75093405

>>75092057
I can't believe they made protestant a class in DnD

>> No.75093501

>>75092081
Fpbp

>> No.75093732

>>75092057
No. Way too overpowered. Also way too Edgyboi.

>> No.75093765

>>75092057
that´s not an atheist, It´s just Marting Luther about to slaming some truth to an door.

>> No.75093768

>>75093002
>Not sure where you're getting that from.
>The true enemies are not the undead, but the church itself
I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure liches and necromancers are still a 'true' enemy even if you've got a beef with the bishop. It just reads retardedly.

>> No.75093772

>>75092057
Sure but they don't need some fancy homebrew domain.
Regular clerics can be devoted to an ideal instead of a good and so could be atheists.
This isn't even a new thing in dnd and goes back to at least 3e.

>> No.75093789

>>75092057
Yeah. The gods are essentially just powerful wizards anyway, so an atheist cleric makes about as much sense as a theist one.

>> No.75093806

>>75093768
Oh no you're right I'm a dumb... that's some really retarded shit though. I wouldn't allow this class. Not because it's edgy or anti-church but just because it's retarded.

>> No.75093810

>>75092057
No. Clerics are divine spellcasters. Their spellcasting modifier is charisma because they have to be appealing to their celestial sugar daddies. It would be like having a warlock without a patron. You can't have an atheist cleric.

However, an atheist character of some other class is a funny concept in a world with actual interventionist gods. They would be like a conspiracy theorist.

>> No.75093833

>>75092057
OP, really. which word do you not know/understand the definition of?

>> No.75093844

>>75093810
Forget what I said about charisma, their modifier is wisdom. I was thinking of warlocks. Regardless, the point stands.

>> No.75093850

>>75093810
Clerics can be devoted to ideals instead of God's. Same as Paladins.

>> No.75093857

>>75093833
at this point i have lost all hopes of people knowing what the fuck a atheist is

>> No.75093865

>>75093850
Depends on the setting, but that shit wouldn't fly over here.

>> No.75093870

>>75093789
the fundamental problem with being an atheist in a world with actual gods, is that they exist, so your belief or lack thereof is irrelevant, neither can you believe they don't exist contrary to actual evidence, because then your just some retarded, autistic village idiot, that can't be trusted with a turnip.

>> No.75093889

>>75092057
the cleric of "too cool to church"

>> No.75093907

>>75093865
Well I yeah of course setting dependent.

But if we're talking just generic dnd core books greyhawk setting then clerics don't need gods.

>> No.75093936

>>75093870
Not really, anyone can claim to be a god.
Doubting that claim would be the atheist position.

Which isn't that crazy position given that a high level caster can do anything a "god" can do.

>> No.75093947

>>75093857
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists

a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

of fundamental import to this definition is the inability to prove either way the existence of a god or gods. a function of reality vs fantasy.
in a fantasy world where gods really exist, and proof of existence is evidenced, then active disbelief is simply stupid. kinda like disbelieving that fire is hot, while it burns your nuts off. and one would be incapable of a passive lack of belief because the evidence is present and real, and choosing to ignore it would lead to the former circumstance.

>> No.75093952

>>75093936
>a high level caster can do anything a "god" can do.
Well that depends on setting and system. In 5e that's simply not true friend. They can do a lot but not 'anything.'

>> No.75093979

>>75093947
>in a fantasy world where gods really exist, and proof of existence is evidenced, then active disbelief is simply stupid.
Not really.
The entity Pelor definitely exists. Pelor being a God can be doubted.

Fantasy atheists are just much more often are skeptical of claims of divinity.

>> No.75093995

>>75093936
They can't cast 10th level magic.

>> No.75094008

>>75093952
They can certainly do enough to easily masquerade as a god.

>> No.75094011

>>75093952
to anons fairness, a high level spellcaster could easly immitait divine fuckery to some bumfuck villagers.

Some Illusions here, some Enchantments there, some Transmutations everyhwere.

>> No.75094036

>>75093979
At that point it depends on your definition of godhood.
>>75093995
Yeah this is an example of a working definition. Gods are mentioned as being able to use 10th or even higher level magic in some D&D books.
>>75094008
>>75094011
Well sure but if we use the previously mentioned definition then godhood is actually testable in D&D.

>> No.75094046

>>75093936
well, in your absurdist and absolutist argument that relegates all settings to your rule set for "powerful wizards", sure why not. you are right, and there can be no room for argument.

>> No.75094064

>>75093870
Nah that's dumb. Kings factually exist and have ability to have you killed, but anti-monarchists are still a thing.>>75093907

>> No.75094069

That's not atheist

>> No.75094079

>>75093979
that isn't doubting the existence of god, but rather quibbling over the definition of god. they are not interchangeable within the context of the definition of atheist.

>> No.75094091

>>75094064
Being anti-god is not the same as being atheist you mong.

>> No.75094094

>>75094011
true, but they wont get by trying to pull the wool over the eyes of powerful clerics, and then shit goes to hell (quite literally) real fast.

>> No.75094151

>>75094036
>Well sure but if we use the previously mentioned definition then godhood is actually testable in D&D
Not really, we as the players can know these abstractions. But spell levels and such aren't a thing characters in the setting can know or determine.

>>75094046
I'm not saying the gods are high level wizards, I'm saying that's a position that can be held by a character within the setting.


Really this is a player knowledge vs PC knowledge thing. We the players can know gods objectively exist, the characters within the setting can't. Which is how they can potentially hold atheism as a reasonable (for them) position.

>> No.75094168

>>75094064
anon proves to be dumber than OP

>> No.75094183

>>75094079
Atheist is a very broad term. Yes it's arguing definition, but that steal means they're not a theist. Which makes them an atheist.

>> No.75094191

>>75093870
I wonder how good the evidence for the excistens of gods is in average fantasy land. Most settings don't have gods showing up in person, and you can always dismiss them as a powerful being short of godhood. How do you distinguish between a storm giant and Thor? Magic can often be claimed as a natrul phenomenon. Miracle is proof of god, wish is proof of a wizard. Gods directly answering prayers is good but again there is the problem of judging if the answerer qualifys as a god, and gods don't bother answering prayers in a lot of settings. Seems it would mostly be an academic issue generally revolving around how god is defined.

>> No.75094252

>>75094079
>>75094183

Yea bros,neither of you are exactly wrong, but in the context of fantasy "atheism" means opposing the theists.

>> No.75094275

>>75094151
>But spell levels and such aren't a thing characters in the setting can know or determine.
That's where you're wrong kiddo.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mystra
'The next Goddess was an entirely different creature. Immediately imposing rules and restrictions on the weave, preventing those kinds of abuses from ever happening again. Capping spellcasting ability to a maximum of 9th level spells, while changing how magic works.'

>> No.75094294

>>75092057
>>75092057
Ignoring the fedora tipping, this is just a really bland domain mechanically
>Rebuke the Holy
How often does the average campaign encounter a celestial?
>Cleanse Falsehoods
It's a weaker dispel magic, a spell you already have as a cleric. Super underwhelming compared to what other domains get.
>Resist the Inquisition
Again, how often does the average campaign fight enemies that use a lot of radiant damage?
>Expose the Folly
Divine Strike but less reliable.
>Embrace Heresy
Immune to charm is good, but again how often does the average campaign fight celestials? Compared to other domains where the level 17 thing lets you fly or gives resistance to nonmagical damage, it's super underwhelming.

If the DM isn't bending over backwards to jerk your church-hatred off, all of these features are garbage.

>> No.75094309

>>75094252
No.

>> No.75094313

>>75094275
That still looks like it's talking in a pc knowledge context.

>> No.75094345

>d&d is created and get famous
>its the first rpg so (since its famous) you have all those extreme amount of rpg players with different point of view of how a rpg should be, playing the exact same rpg
>after some amount of time playing some players discover some stuff they think are flaws, while discover some rules they think are really awesome
>because they have very different views on what a rpg should be (despise playing the exact same rpg), what some guy think is a good idea wont be considered a good idea by the other player, what some consider a shitty idea will be considered a good idea by other rpg player
>new system is made based at this enviroment, and create a mess of a rpg system.
>many of those players quickly jump into the new system, expecting fixes to what they think are flaws
>because the players have very different opinions on what rpg should be (despise playing the same exact system), what is a flaw to some is a fix to another, and what is a fix to another is a flaw to someone. So the system CAN'T be fixed.
>all those extreme amount of players quickly jumping to this new system, bring new (to rpg) players to the new d&d system
>this make the game have an extreme amount of rpg players with different point of view of how a rpg should be, playing the exact same rpg
>because they have very different views on what a rpg should be (despise playing the exact same rpg), what some guy think is a good idea wont be considered a good idea by the other player, what some consider a shitty idea will be considered a good idea by other rpg
>new system is made based at this enviroment, and create a mess of a rpg system. No one knows what the system/d&d is suposed to be, because it was created based on a mess.
>the story continue ad infinitum

>> No.75094357

>>75094064
being anti-god is not the same as being atheist.

By your logic ancaps dont believe they live at some state and believe they live at some anarchist land

>> No.75094362

>>75093936
>Doubting that claim would be the atheist position.

Atheist means not believing at ANY god, If you believe at a single god you arent one, no matter how many gods you think that are fake

>> No.75094413

>>75092057
sounds like some neck beard scumbag who wants to jerk off his school of thought. Shit like
>>75092115
Sounds interesting. And the whoever wrote this speaks like a dumbass.

>> No.75094482

>>75094313
Yes. So they know about spell levels. There you go.

>> No.75094511

>>75094482
No, that's my fuck up. I mean player knowledge not PC.

>> No.75094524

>>75094362
Yes exactly.
And an atheist would also doubt the claims of someone going around saying they're a god.

>> No.75094557

>>75092057
No. 1. because atheist cleric is a dumb concept, and 2. because heresy very seldom tends to be about rooting out corruption and more often tends to be an attempt to twist the teachings more to that person's liking. Whether that be through making them in line with their own headcanons, or through abusing them to get power of their own

>> No.75094574

>>75092057
yes

>> No.75094631

>>75092057
The gods in DnD are real though.
>points finger at priest
>Is your god real?
>comes back true

>> No.75094760

75092477
>would have no issue with a sectarian cleric character unless it invites unwanted friction with the rest of the party. But I would at least ask them if they considered playing a warlock instead.

Adgree.

Honestly a lot of people might like the cleric playstyle but might have reservations with playing a religious character for various personal reasons. Which as a GM I would be fine with accommodating for with some sort of areligious version of the class.

I just missed the 4e Warlord.

>> No.75094973

>>75092057
Fuck no. Heretics are fodder for demons. You need a god to protect your soul, even an evil one will do

>> No.75095079

>>75092057
Well I look at him and give him some choccy milk because he is epic for playing D&D.

>> No.75095194

>>75092146
>opposes it anyway
>implying hurr durr gods can NEVER BE DEFEATED BRO
depends
retard

>> No.75095751

>>75092057
Yes as a secret cleric of Satan procuring false enlightenment.

>> No.75095783

That's just Protestantism.

>> No.75095999

>hurr durr but gods are real in D&D
But are they 'true' gods or are they just particularly powerful beings posing as the divine? Cast down these false idols and bring justice to those who enforce their will.

>> No.75096054

>>75092057
>Would you let someone play an atheist cleric like this one?

Naw, but I allow Ur-Priests: >>75092115
>Ur-Priest (clerics that didn't worship Gods but instead stole power from them)
I even add a little flavor in that Ur-Priests can steal or scavenge Miracles from dead deities (at higher levels this demands it meet it's logical conclusion where you need to kill a diety in order to fully realize all the features of the class) or siphon the kind of "background static" divine energy left over from when the Universe was created.

>> No.75096112

>>75092057
>Would you let someone play an atheist cleric
Yes
>like this one?
No

>> No.75096982

>>75092115
Shugenja can hardly be blamed for not fitting into dnd's cosmology when they were shoehorned in from their own setting back when Wizards got their grubby mitts on l5r for an edition.

>> No.75097093

>>75093405
Now I want to make a Cleric Subclass based off of Quakers

>> No.75097367

>>75092057
>Making a dnd atheist cleric homebrew
>Not naming it Ur-Pteist
Why do r*ddit users not know the history of the game?

>> No.75098136

>>75096982
by gary gygax / tsr in 1985. oriental adventures, pg 22 shukenja. fucking newb zoomer kiddie, let the adults talk.

>> No.75098208

>>75092057
That homebrew is fucking cool, so sure, go ahead.

>> No.75098228

>>75092057
I think they chose the wrong picture to illustrate the class

>> No.75098294

>>75092057
I don't even allow atheist players into my games.

>> No.75098468

>>75092057
the existence of gods in DnD is factual and objectively provable. people pray to them enough and get powers, they come down in avatar form and interact with the material pain, you can even travel to their plain with magic. you can't "disbelieve" in a god of that setting. at best you can choose to not worship any but attempting to spite them in any way is stupid. and you can't gain divine power from the absence of divine influence, that's retarded. also they have non-divine clerics, they're called warlocks.

>> No.75098640

>>75098468
The existence of entities claiming to be gods is provable, that they are actually gods and not just especially powerful outsiders is debatable.

As for the latter divine casters don't need a god dnd. Devotion to a philosophy or nature is sufficient to grant power to divine casters. Assuming you're just playing standard dnd out of the core books.

>> No.75098932

>>75092057
That's not a heretic, a heretic is someone who believes in a religion but goes against established doctrine. This is more like a vigilante inquisitor.

>>75093080
This is more "God is good, but his followers are evil", like when Martin Luther nailed up the theses which was a long list of complaints against Catholicism. He's the kind of guy who would beat the shit out of a priest who told people to put money in the collection plate to be absolved of sin (a priest cannot refuse to absolve you of sins you confess to).

>>75094294
How often does an average campaign require a vigilante inquisitor? If a church turned bad or overly zealous you could very well end up fighting against good clerics no problem.

>> No.75098933

>>75092057
Atheist shouldn't exist where the deity are proven
Anti-god should though

>> No.75099087

>>75093810
You would hate Dragonlance, then.

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