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72403809 No.72403809 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>medieval fantasy setting has early gunpowder firearms without any steampunk elements to the setting

>> No.72403915

medieval fantasy sucks, better choose renaissance or age of enlightenment for historical fantasy since both offer a slightly optimistic setting and not the peasant dying because cholera all the time

>> No.72403926
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It probably has potatoes and Adventurers Guilds though.

>> No.72403943

Not having steampunk is one of the best things a setting that tries to have magic and technology together can do.

>> No.72403969
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>Medieval fantasy setting has some steampunk elements like a steam train and airships

>> No.72404003

What’s the ideal fantasy tech level for a gun for your standard medium fantasy d&d, factoring in the most advanced weapons and armors technologies like full plate?
Would a breech loading weapon be feasible?

>> No.72404017
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>without any steampunk elements to the setting
This proves it won't have, while Adventures Guilds are from settings made by dumbasses who probably would put 17th century plate armor along with vikings with horned helmets. kys

>> No.72404035

Now that I think about it, you're quite right. It would be interesting technological path if steam engine (and combustion engine) is skipped and instead it goes say generating eletricity with magic.

>> No.72404047
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Handcanons can cheaper and more common, while arquebuses are more expesinve and pwoerful.

Remember that plate armor became popular as a counter-balance to early firearms

>> No.72404086

Sure, but, unless we are going to give guns rules like exploding damage or others, what technology level could we use for firing a shot every d&d round or so? That’s why I jump up to something like breeches.

>> No.72404159

Just make them lethal, but inaccurate (they were for real) and easy to dodge outside point-blank, latter is acceptable break from reality because PCs are heroes and heroes can dodge bullets.

>> No.72404161
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You're still probably looking at muzzle loaders for that. I'd go with 16th century arquebuses because they have an attractive and familiar form- the old handguns (or handgonnes if you want to trigger autists) look weird and shitty.

>> No.72404168

well, there's always gunpowder-powered machinery/vehicles.

so yea, gunpowder-powered cars, or strap a pair of rockets to a wagon for propulsion or even rocket powered gliders.

>> No.72404194

>but inaccurate (they were for real)
They were no more inaccurate than bows and the reputation for short range comes from 18th century shot being loaded loose.

Arquebuses until the 30yw were loaded tight and drills called for targets at 200-300 yards

>> No.72404205

>what technology level could we use for firing a shot every d&d round or so?
Handwave it. You already do for crossbows. You can't reload and draw a crossbow in six seconds (unless it's so slack it fires bolts about 10 meters before they bounce off a cabbage). If you're treating DnD like it's simulationist in any way whatosever then you're on a hiding to nothing.

>> No.72404230

>You already do for crossbows.
Notably crossbows were slower to reload than even early muskets and more or less in line with how long it takes to reload a wheel lock pistol (except you could carry loaded, unlike a crossbow)

>> No.72404286

Not to mention the fact that D&D heroes can suffer axe wounds to head or swords to heart (infact there are no hit locations, just hits) and they don't lose limbs either.

>> No.72404307

Braces of pistols are cool and have historical precedents, which is more than can be said for hand crossbows.

Pistols in particular work well for "sidearm for the guy who's not a fighter" after the medieval era - they're so short ranged (unless you're an expert shot) that they're only useful as a hold-out or last resort, or when you're closing with your melee weapon, but in any of those cases, once you get into "can't miss" range it's nice to have

>> No.72404494

Pistols were also (it took long they made rifles that could be fired well from horseback) for a long time devastating cavalry weapon that surpassed the lance. Knights would have belts of loaded pistols they fired when the charge got close enough before switching to for melee after emptying the pistols.

>> No.72404584

>which is more than can be said for hand crossbows.
Hand crossbows in 2e were toys that cost 3 times as much as an arquebus and did 1d2 damage

The only reason they became viable weapons is that someone at wotc decided guns were too high tech

>> No.72404656

3e had gun (I think it included modern firearms too) rules from the start if I recall correctly, they were just marked as optional. Could be though that was added in 3.5, can't remember.

>> No.72404701

3e's guns were, like 4e's and 5e's, garbage that was basically put in with grinding teeth and mostly because they knew enough groups had started using them that there would be complaints.

They're also so bad that there's literally no reason to ever use guns raw over crossbows across wotc editions.

>> No.72404720

But should a many-gun-ready/pistol brace attitude be (and the costs to go with it) be embraced for your typical low-levels to high 15 or so be used? It’d be quite expensive, I reckon. I know we aren’t going for hyper-realism, but usually the drawbacks for say, crossbows of any kind are the loading mechanics. Yeah, the heavier ones usually take a bit of time, but your typical 5e crossbow seems to be inspired by loading times of lighter crossbows and the use of tools for heavier.
The sort of area I want to get into with tech level is that a gun user could vary from anywhere in between just a fighter with a gun sidearm to whole builds dedicated around firearm use.

>> No.72404784

Well, obviously not the norm for non-rich characters. Experienced pirate, high level adventurer/looter (murderhobo) or some knight or other kind of noble. Not something low level characters could do because the costs.

>> No.72404808

Well, yeah I remember rules being shitty and damage a joke. Were they actually better in ADD?

>> No.72404809

I treat pistols as hand crossbows price and stats wise with one minor change, so it's not something they can afford out of the gate (but usually someone who wants to dedicate themselves to it should be able to afford 2-3 by level 3-4)

>> No.72404836
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>medieval guns are messy, clunky, take a bit to reload, but gore anything they hit

>> No.72404850

AD&D guns had the highest damage of all range weapons, had range that wasn't much worse than non heavy crossbows, their main negative was, iirc, a risk of hangfire on an attack roll of 1.

They also rerolled every max damage die for more damage.

>> No.72404894

What the fuck are you smoking? A standard crossbow with a cocking lever only takes about 3 - 5 seconds to reload. An early black power rifle takes trained professionals upwards of 15 - 20 seconds to reload.

>> No.72404915

I think they should also do some horror damage atleast for non-experienced character to reflect how guns were scary new thing during medieval times because of loud bang, fire, smoke and the fact they dropped people dead faster than anything else back then.

>> No.72404919

>A standard crossbow with a cocking lever only takes about 3 - 5 seconds to reload.
>implying that's what a heavy crossbow is

>> No.72404940

The age of enlightenment was a far shittier time. The Middle Ages were a paradise by comparison.

>> No.72404943

Sure, but how about rifles. I figure that’s the way guns would work most all the time. But, what tech level is the usual abstracted gun?
We could talk our yams off about the differences between kukris and knives (or hand axes) and lump them under one damage roll and such, but what should be expected when describing and talking about technology? Is it more reasonable to have some duel-pistolero run about with a brace of wheel locks, or should we be using some hybridized breech load or similar technology?

>> No.72404974

>But, what tech level is the usual abstracted gun?
2e's guns went from matchlocks to early flintlocks so 1500 to 1700

>> No.72405044
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The thing is that for the most part, even when people were just limited to wheellocks, you already had most other types of gun mechanisms already. The issue is just that they were all just incredibly rare or crafted by master artisans. Things like the Puckle gun which was basically a giant primordial revolver, or lorenzoni/cookson guns which were lever actions all the way back in the 1600s.

>> No.72405206

I guess what I’m trying to say is how one might balance the upfront cost of purchasing a pistol or rifle. I imagine you might pay anywhere between 50-80 GP for a pistol that is at the tech level that can fire a single shot per round, while you might pay between 30-50 GP for a pistol that can effectively only fire twice in you average encounter.
I don’t necessarily want to bankrupt people that want to use a pistol in their offhand or duel-wield pistols by having them buy anywhere between 4-8 pistols and a brace that become useless if you’d don’t get enough time between encounters to reload each pistol.

>> No.72405239

Wheellock itself is arguably a fairly fancy mechanism, they were generally more reliable than flintlocks esp wrt fouling, but also way more expensive

>> No.72405534

>implying the post I replied to, the post it was in response to, or the post that post was in response to said anything about heavy crossbows.
Heavy crossbow is as different a weapon from a standard crossbow than a rifle is to a pistol.

Also, it's worth mentioning that while a windlass crossbow has a long reload time (close to if not in excess of 30 seconds) it can have an extreme draw weight (easily exceeding 1100 lbs., 10x the draw weight of a longbow). Nothing about the DnD heavy crossbow stat line represents this.

>> No.72406200

It also has a short, stubby projectile that bleeds energy quickly. Actual hand crossbows still had upwards of 300lb draw weight, and they were basically toys that wouldn't reliably pierce cloth shirts because of their garbage projectile.

>> No.72406445

Something particularly nice about that is it means they are primo adventurer/boss/villain weapons and not rank and file.

>> No.72406756

so? Renaissance then. I like gunpowder muzzle loaders and huge cannon

>> No.72406838

a minute if you are untrained, and since this is medieval and there's no paper cartridge. Welp

>> No.72406904

Similar to crossbows they were fairly accurate for someone who was untrained. So they were good for arming a militia or peasant mercenary. More importantly, that cheaply armed militia or peasant militia could overcome a group of heavily armoured infantry or cavalry. Keep in mind the English longbow was still effective for two centuries after firearms became common

>> No.72410088

XVIII century sounds like an amazing time for a bunch of Swedes moving to Greenland, becoming pirates and cosplaying as shitty knockoffs of vikings. I know the idea of horned helmets comes up in XIX century, but hey, I don't think it would be that much of a stretch.

>> No.72410119

You do know horned helmet comes from ancient depictions of Odin?

>> No.72410152

But it was popularised as viking stuff by Wagner anyway.

>> No.72410153
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>someone challenges an orc warlord to a honorable duel
>he accepts
>as soon as the fight starts the orc pulls out a pistol and shoots before his opponent even has the chance of drawing their weapon

>> No.72412606
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Didn't they found some horned helmets in archeological excavations, but they were purely cerimonial?

>> No.72412672
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>setting has adventurers guild
>it's just a big lodge outside of town where elderly veterans with scars and missing limbs drink beer and reminisce, surrounded by fucked up monster trophies

>> No.72412695
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>Game has no steampunk elements

>> No.72413358

There is a tapestry showing them - but it could be a ceremonial thing or just straight up depiction of Odin himself. There is only one full viking helmet that we know of and no horns on it.

>> No.72413651
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>> No.72414646


>> No.72415767
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Time to post handgonnes

>> No.72415807

>steampunk good
>posting pictures of photoshop Chad
Maximum faggotry

>> No.72415846

>he thinks medieval fantasy is actually medieval

>> No.72415909

>a minute if you are untrained
It never took a full minute

>> No.72415943

>potatoes and coffee
Negligible, honestly. It's obviously not a 1:1 recreation of the real world, so who cares? Unless it's a magical version of Middle Ages Europe, then yeah, that's anachronistic.

>> No.72416010

>le untrained peasant weapon meme

No you fucking englaboo, crossbow mercs weren't dirt farmers, they were well paid, well trained, well drilled urbane mercenaries.

Actual people living when longbows were still considered weapons of war, even in fucking England, thought they were shit compared to guns. The literal only counter-argument from that time period in favor of bows was as a result of the battle of Calais because the crown bought sub-par gunpowder. By the 1550s showing up with a bow to county militias was counted as showing up unarmed.

>> No.72416050

Also the limitation for coffee isn't transatlantic trade, it's the discovery of the plant; it only started being consumed in Yemen and Ethiopia in the 1400s

>> No.72416058

y'all suck. I unapologettically run gonzo kitchensink 2e/3e d&d fantasy with heavy weeb influences. And we have fun.

>> No.72416115

>2e/3e d&d fantasy

3e actively dialed down the cool shit outside eberron though.

>> No.72416139

>pulls out a pistol
>actually a firelance
>that doubles as a greataxe
>that takes a minute to load
>orc shot first only because you're slower at loading your own polearm

>> No.72416146

>So spreads the legend of Warboss Hun Zoggo, who always shot first, and his Bugbear compatriot Chewy

>> No.72416159

medieval fantasy north america got invaded by medieval fantasy chinese, so now has gunpowder and potatoes

>> No.72416261

Why not go the other direction?
>Migration Era AKA Dark Ages Fantasy
>Adventure through the decaying remnants of an empire that once spanned the known world.
>Most of the world can only make iron tools and weapons.
>Mail is the best armor available
>Steel is so rare and so valuable that a Steel Sword is basically a magic item.
>If you have Tolkein races, maybe have the Dwarves be the only faction with smelting furnaces able to create crucible steel, and thus the only faction with Plate Armor.
>Also, simple inventions like Paper are extremely valuable, or totally unheard of.

>> No.72416286

>>Migration Era AKA Dark Ages Fantasy
Because babies would cry if you banned heavy armor, longbows and most two-handed weapons

>> No.72416382

And yes heavy armor should be banned, The dendra panoply is a retarded meme.

>> No.72416418


>> No.72416453

That depends entirely where, but yes I can absolutely believe it might have been the case among germanic pig fuckers.

>> No.72416477

A reminder that air guns are about as old as European blackpowder weapons and are IRL (X)punk.

>> No.72416688

Depends on the quality of sword, to.

A cheap sword that's basically a sharpened hunk of solid pig iron wouldn't cost that much, but would break after only a couple of hits.

A fancy pattern welded sword with different grades of iron and etched with acid made by a master smith? That definitely could get up there in price.

>> No.72416945

>Also, it's worth mentioning that while a windlass crossbow has a long reload time (close to if not in excess of 30 seconds) it can have an extreme draw weight (easily exceeding 1100 lbs., 10x the draw weight of a longbow). Nothing about the DnD heavy crossbow stat line represents this.
What about draw length, though? I've always been under the impression that a crossbow's not going to anywhere near as much more powerful than a bow as comparing their draw weights would seem to indicate.

>> No.72417082

A huge part of the reputation for extreme cost of swords among german peoples (anglos included) is that their shit had to be imported because, at least during the invasion era, their metallurgy was questionable at best (unlike the romans who had the benefit of conquering some of the best smiths in the world with Spain, Gaul and Syria)

>> No.72418176 [SPOILER]  [DELETED] 
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>tfw comfy dark ages Anglo-Saxon setting based on the writings of Bernard Cornwell with an OSR system
>tfw exclusive only to Brazil

Feels HUE man

>> No.72418213 [SPOILER] 
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>tfw comfy dark ages Anglo-Saxon setting based on the writings of Bernard Cornwell with an OSR system
>tfw exclusive only to Brazil

Feels HUE man

>> No.72418288

Stupid question, but how were hand cannons used tactically? Like I'm not too familiar on how combat worked in that era, but I can't even begin to understand how you'd order these things in battle. Would they be towards the rear with archers? Were they mostly used for sieges or were there people just yeeting each other in the field?

>> No.72418391

why is steampunk so trash

>> No.72418464

>tfw you roll welsh fey and make the campaign about removing rosbif

>> No.72418494

Draw length is a longbowboo meme

Also draw weight of a windlass crossbow is still weaker than an arquebuses' energy capacity and the game only represents those as d12 weapons. HP is an abstraction

>> No.72418541

Plate armor became popular because better metallurgy skills.
This also led to firearms became stronger and more reliable, as with better steel, better the odds that the cannon won't explode themselves.

>> No.72418582

You defend something. Dig a trench, make a rampart or a circle of wagons, then have your gunners hide behind that so they can reload in peace. Handguns like that were primarily defensive weapons.

>> No.72419813
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I think the French/Normans are at a much later timeframe than proposed by the sourcebook. It's more centered around the "historical" King Arthur in the Anglo-Saxon invasions and the Romano-Britons. There's also a semi-sequel set in the Vikings invasions.

>> No.72420000

You know things got worse for peasants post Renaissance and continued to get worse until the 19th and 20th centuries right?

Colonialism and industrialization was built in the back of displaced peasantry.

>> No.72420075

Because it doesn't focus on the gritty punk side of robber barons and industrialization. It's cog fop with everyone being over of the wealthy elite crossing around in thier airships.

It's like if you played Cyberpunk but everyone was the rich brat offspring of powerful CEOs.

>> No.72420194

Well obviously. Gotta have high calorie density per acre food stuffs to justify stable population levels despite monsters regularly eating people.

I'd probably give them rice too. Maybe even fuck huge magical GMO Corn.

An evil magical Monsanto actually seems like a fun plot hook.

>> No.72420336

Based Kaczynski quads

>> No.72421607

because it's a quirky le cogs "aesthetic"

>> No.72423845

Guilds were the backbone of medieval cities

>> No.72423952

It baffles me that /tg/ hates fantasy job centers so much.

>> No.72424675

Change to "mercenary band" or a "league of explorers", otherwise it's just dumb and stupid.

>> No.72424687

Nah, adventurer's guilds are fun and cool.

>> No.72424801

Adventure Guilds require the entire setting to bend over backwards just to support the basic premises that would allow such an institution to exist, they encourage lazy writing and cheapen adventure. Adventure is supposed to be unusual and exciting, taking people out of their comfort zones and into worlds of uncertainty and danger. It's not a 9-5 job that happens to involve steel outfits and cave-dwelling monsters.

Just changing the name to "Mercenary band", or make them some kind of explorer's guild/league/society like Pathfinder did with the Pathfinder society. It will make it 100% and not logically stupid.

Also, the name "Guild" is also stupid, it would require them basically acting as a mafia as well, that would make "Adventure's" guild 1000x desu

>> No.72424820


PS: Not a problem if it's a comedy-based setting or having some heavy lampshades

>> No.72424827

Literally could not give less of a fuck. Adventurer's Guilds allow for an easy to understand context to a lot of things.

>> No.72424894

running Wildemount right now, this hits home

>> No.72425383
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>Setting takes place in the mid 1700s and everything is historically accurate aside from the limited existence of magic and fantasy creatures.

>> No.72425499
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Greedfall had this aesthetic

>> No.72425640

I've been told Greedfall was pretty good.

>> No.72425917

It's pretty meh. Worldbuilding is underdeveloped, clichés, a lot of wealking around, enemies look all the same and they get annoying after a while, both the worldbuilding and the story (specially quests) have a lot of neat and cool ideias but ultimately decide to go for some cookie-cutter clichés, and a lot of boring walking over some place. Get during sale.

But I didn't found anything bad, most stuff was eh with some neat things scattered around.

>> No.72426381

So good ideas, mediocre execution?

>> No.72426717

My thoughts exactly.

>> No.72426747

>Draw length is a longbowboo meme
How could it possibly be a meme? It seems pretty obvious that it's going to affect the power of the bow.

>> No.72426778

It has more to do with draw strength. The length of the draw is only important in determining when the bow's draw weight has reached its peak.

>> No.72426806

F = m * a
Longer draw lengths mean that the bow is more powerful (assuming the bows are made out of the same material) because longer draw lengths mean greater draw weight.

Draw weight is the end all be all on accelerating an arrow (or bolt) to a target.

>> No.72426826

>medieval fantasy
>not grimderp
>early firearms
>modern food like hamburgers, coffee, and soda
>bardic lutes and merry dances mixed with beatboxing and jazz saxophone

>> No.72427314

>Dark Ages Anglo-Saxon setting
Why not just play Wolves of God then? Assuming you're salty about this and not a satisfied hue, I can't really tell t b h

>> No.72429428

Why does every source I've found state that crossbows, or at least Medieval European crossbows, are less powerful than their draw weights would indicate? I'm not talking about just Youtube historians and such here, it's just that evetything I've read on the subject - admittedly exclusively on the Internet - has been consistent on this subject.

>> No.72430263

>old Sragon

>> No.72430635

>Sea Whores Guerrilla
Sounds metal!

>> No.72430735

Draw weight indicates force, but it only acts on arrow/bolt as long as the string is pushing against arrow/bolt.
Crossbows have shorter draw lengthes, so the larger forces act for a shorter period of time.

>> No.72430791

Yes, that's always been my impression, but I understood that >>72426778 and
>>72426806, and at the very least >>72418494, disagreed with that.

>> No.72430807

>he doesn't change the name to fit the setting
Beware my delicious earth-turds and hot nut-juice

>> No.72430819

No idea what those three mean.

Here's some basic math to all interested:
Work(joules) = Force(newtons) x distance(meters)

For a bow/crosswbow it's draw weight(Force) multiplied by draw length(Distance). Result is kinetic energy of the projectile.

>> No.72432583
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>> No.72432638
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>> No.72432737
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>> No.72434920
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It's a nice system, it has all the good stuff and philosophy from OSRs and old editions of D&D, but it doesn't try too hard to appeal to nostalgiafags and grognards.

>> No.72435421
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>> No.72435536


Most were only used in sieges until they got a lot lighter and more mobile and standardized.

>> No.72437175

> An evil magical Monsanto actually seems like a fun plot hook.

>> No.72437416

I imagine the importance guns played on the battlefield doesn't translate well for 4 murder hobos mugging a dragon.

>> No.72437673


Why not? Seems a sensible weapon to use against a big beast like a dragon.

>> No.72437784

the murder hobos also can carry a crossbow, which take as much time to reload as a gun.

>> No.72437965

Guns are vastly easier to use as personal weapons than bows, whose main use in warfare is mass fire artillery (leading to them being completely eclipsed by a bunch of french nerds with cannons)

>> No.72438027

Man of culture

>> No.72438365

Eehhh I still wouldnt call them accurate. Yes they arent going to zoom off into oblivion nowhere near their target but they had a cone that got wider the farther you go out. Up close yeah get fucked but further away they were absolutely less accurate than a trained bowman or crossbowman. While arrows and bolts also dont fly straight they are generally less variable than early firearms. Rifling came about for a reason and it wasnt just because they really dont like packing firearms tight.

>> No.72438483

>they were absolutely less accurate than a trained bowman or crossbowman
They were absolutely not. You don't deal with the fucking archer's paradox with a proper musket

>> No.72438969

That sounds like shit oc meme

>> No.72439038

you dumb faggot, threaded barrels weren't around till the American Rev. That's why they fought in lines, cause a musket couldn't shoot shit. Go to /hist/ or some shit.

>> No.72439860

An archer's paradox is something an archer deals with through training. You cannot train a bullet from an early boomstick to fly straight, it spirals slightly and hits somewhere within the general area that was fired upon with the spiral getting worse and the gonne getting greatly more innacurate the further out you get.

If you fire at a block of men will it hit? Yeah very likely to! Will it snipe someone on the road when fired from a man hidden in the treetops? Unlikely, a trained bowman or crossbowman can be more accurate. A gun is just stupid simple to fire and generally more deadly than most bows and crossbows. REAL heavy crossbows still were the most lethal but considering it took less strength to wad some shit down a tube and point the stick at someone gonnes caught on.

>> No.72440079

When you really think about it, any kind of power source *other* than steam leads to interesting results.

Titanic oil-powered reality-warping machines, runic keyboards, e-moire with spells that consumes % of their battery, enchanted horses that power every contraption, Nuclear Enhanced Mana Area reactors (shoutout to GURPS Technomancer for this one), etc...

>> No.72440539

Rifling was invented in the 16th century and the main reason musket shot became less accurate as time went on was that they started using loose shot to get 4-5 shots a minute

>> No.72440579

Also wait until you hear how english archers fought you dumbass bongboo

You can't "deal with the archer's paradox" through simple training.

>> No.72440706

1) Guns are fucking loud and will attract other creatures from around the dungeon
2) Several shots will produce an obscuring amount of smoke in confined spaces
3) It is not unlikely for you to be exposed to large amounts of flame which may burn all your powder or large amounts of water which may ruin your powder

>> No.72440710

Massed volleys and then skirmishing around sieges and from the back before the lines crashed? Fucking madness I know!

>Rifling was invented because they wanted to save time with gunpowder
Yeah sure bud

>> No.72441381


>Guns are fucking loud

As opposed to a raging dragon.

>large amounts of water which may ruin your powder

So would bowstrings.

>Several shots will produce an obscuring amount of smoke in confined spaces

The only genuine negative. Can be worked around or even to your advantage.

>> No.72442399

Any kind of weather which would foul gunpowder would make bowstrings so bad that trying to draw the bow at all would ruin the staff

Black powder weapons were used on the fucking high seas anon

>> No.72443073

That's fine, I'm not running a game to stimulate real life.

>> No.72444680

>3) It is not unlikely for you to be exposed to large amounts of flame which may burn all your powder or large amounts of water which may ruin your powder
>implying that isn't a bad thing that results in !!FUN!!

>> No.72447153

Being a mercenary band makes it much, much more of a day job. A guild is a group of independent contractors who lobby collectively to get monopolies on their trade and the training thereof. They have no quotas or commanders or CEOs. All they have is a certification from the guild. A mercenary band are a bunch of enlisted grunts who are contractually bound to obey their commander.

>> No.72447792

Tech is based

>> No.72450327

>Virginia Company

>> No.72450372

Even nuclear energy is just used to generate steam, anon. The most efficient use of magical fuel would still be steam related.
Unless you generate electricity out of nothing, which is turbo gay.
God-tier taste.

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