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57313589 No.57313589 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>colonial ambitions such as the Scramble for Africa, the creation of the British Raj, the Opium Wars and Commodore Perry's expedition were a huge part of the 19th century
>Steampunk as a genre is centered heavily on the 19th century
>there is basically no colonial focused Steampunk and it instead only really seems to occur in the British Isles, some parts of Europe, or Civil War/Wild West derivative settings in America

Why is this?

>> No.57313703

>>57313589
I think it’s because of colonialist sensibilities that the people they were conquering had no civilization. Since a lot of steampunk is the tech, I think it’d be pretty boring to have steam-powered robots fighting native cavalry.

You could advance the tech of the natives, but I think that invalidates the idea.

Perhaps a good compromise are skirmishes between colonial powers in the far off land? Or set it in a steampunk colonial city, with their being internal conflicts between the natives, rather than outright conquest?

Or lastly Indiana Jones it, and have expedition to lost magical ruins.

>> No.57313830

>>57313589
Steampunk practitioners like to have all the aesthetic trappings of the colonial period but don't like to deal with the icky awfulness of actual colonialism.

Part of why I hate steampunk so much, it just reeks of racist bullshit

>> No.57313903

>>57313589
Just have it as a struggle between technology and magic like maybe Arcanum or something.

>> No.57313919

>>57313830
You can get around that I’m sure. Most people don’t bother of course.

I prefer the idea that to keep their colonial subjects from constantly revolting, the powers reorganize to be a union of various nations, with themselves at the top, ala the British Commonwealth, with varying degrees of truth to it.

>> No.57313957

>>57313703
>Or set it in a steampunk colonial city, with their being internal conflicts between the natives, rather than outright conquest?
That what I would imagine it to be, most of the important part of colonial politics is between the colonizing nations after the more primitive nations have been subjugated, and the interaction between the conquerors and the conquests.

Also you can have the plight of the common man in a colonial environment, the Australians making their way across this untamed continent of strange fauna and harsh environments, or the Boer colonists in South Africa dealing with their mother country abandoning them and being subjugated by their new British overlords.

>> No.57314055

>>57313589
Because steamfags just want to play nobility and sit in the dirigible's 18th ballroom talking with Lord Wetheringhall the 12th of Scarborough-on-Neasway while wearing their their corsets on the outside like some sort of prostitute. And those are mainly the sort of idiots who'll buy it. No downtrodden Zeppelin boilermen conspiring with the natives to damage the colonial government for you.

>> No.57314072

>>57314055
You think you'd at least see nobility hanging out in the zeppelin, using a deck as a diving platform into Lake Victoria, as they enjoy their colonial holdings

>> No.57314091

>>57314072
I think a steampunk Texan oil baron would be a gas.

>> No.57314092

>>57313703
give the natives magic is the obvious solution

>> No.57314127

>>57314092
Perhaps. It’d need to be done very carefully, I have a lot of little gripes about that kind of stuff.

>> No.57314129

I’d rp in a steampunk Wild West

>> No.57314193

>>57314092
Isn't that just African Deadlands?

>> No.57314495

>>57313703
You could also have the natives press ganged harvest the resources you need for all of the bullshit tech. Just because there's high tech in typical steampunk setting doesn't mean there isn't grunt labor behind the scenes keeping things moving.

>> No.57314527

>>57314055
>Because steamfags just want to play nobility and sit in the dirigible's 18th ballroom talking with Lord Wetheringhall the 12th of Scarborough-on-Neasway while wearing their their corsets on the outside like some sort of prostitute.

I honestly don't see why this is excessively looked down upon compared to playing fantasy murderhobos decked out in silly fantasy armor or space marines decked out in skulls and purity seals which gets significantly less shit on.

>> No.57314585

>>57313589
Steam Punk India would be pretty cool. Just have the faux-Brits working to introduce their tech to their colonial possessions. Hell, make it a stand in for the British railways that finally connected India into a single super-state. And I think having the faux-Brits use their advanced tech to subjugate the 'savages' is a good way to keep that colonial sensibility alive. Steam-mechs wrecking Singh cavalry, Indian resistance fighters eventually developing their own not-quite-as-effective steam mechs as a counter, industrial sabotage and all the good stuff. It would be great in a massively bleak way.

>> No.57314643

>>57314055
I want to play the last gasp of explorers before the world wars shit all over it.

>> No.57314655

>>57314585
What if I want a noble-bright industrial setting?

>> No.57314669

>>57314643
One theme I like is that once all the lands have been colonized and conquered, the colonial powers then turn on each other.

>> No.57314673

>>57314527
A good story needs some sort of progression throughout, usually in the form of overcoming obstacles or conflict. Thus goes doubly so for a game. If that zeppelin game has some heavy social conflict, it could be fine. But, if it's just people sitting around gabbing in cute outfits, that's just a shallow diversion.

Murderhoboing is shit too, but that doesn't lower the bar of shittiness.

>> No.57314709

>>57314655
>Brits drill deep in India and accidentally break the seal that kept their gods sleeping.
>Now that they're awake they're back to doing their crazy god bullshit and begin wrecking everything with collateral damage.
>Brits and some Indians team up to use steam-mechs enhanced with scavenged divine relics to put the Indian gods back to sleep while dealing with sabotage from more faithful Indians and British converts.

>> No.57314720

>>57314655
Then you make it a setting where the Raj eventually became independent, with England granting it autonomy after the East India company fell apart in exchange for favorable trade relations and access to it's ports. So you have this massive Indian Empire with modern technology that's free of the Mughal Muzzies and also Perfidious Albion. AKA it's that one setting in Magic: The Gathering

>> No.57314957

>>57314720
Hmm, I think i’ll mix that with the more equal Commonwealth idea.

>> No.57316658

>>57314720
Or you make the colonists kinder. You know the whole excuse about bringing civilization and order to the continent? What if that was actually the primary objective?

>> No.57316837

>>57313830
>aesthetic trappings but DON'T like to deal with the icky awfulness
>reeks of racist bullshit
How!? If it's not addressed/included then how can IT be racist?

>> No.57316965

>>57316837
Pretending it didn't happen

>> No.57316989

>>57316837
the neoliberal position is that benefitting from the system, i.e. having all the peace, prosperity and technology of the post-Enlightenment without referencing the requisite slavery, even if your fantasy history didn't use slavery, is like intentionally deleting spooks/gooks from history.

>> No.57317016

>>57313589
People always say Steampunk lost touch with or ignores its quintessential themes but I'm having a hard time thinking of any definitive work of Steampunk. I know people usually reference the Difference Engine and while I haven't read it from what I understand it really doesn't have anything to do colonialism or labor riots or whatever.

I always saw Steampunk as an aesthetic, not a genre. This perspective that it has pre-established thematics confuses me. It's like bitching about how "Art Deco Games" don't talk enough about the Great Depression.

>> No.57317026

>>57316989
the MAGATOW position is slants/curry didn't invent anything, only GREAT MEN are protagonists and only through individual labour & moral education does anything matter.
thus forgetting the little people has no narrative or identarian impact on a story/history.

>> No.57317049
File: 1.48 MB, 2000x1172, big_91851[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57317049

>>57313589
Because colonial adventures are pulp, not steampunk.

Steampunk is focused on the introduction of a foreign technological element in an already known setting, like most SF. Pulp is all about adventures and exploration.

Besides, tech tends to be limited/unreliable/expensive in steampunk, which means you usually don't want to risk it in extreme conditions and unknown lands. Remember the Frankin expedition that died of botulism because of non-mastered beef can tech? Or Scott (with his tractors) and Nobile (with his zeppelin) dying on the pole.

If you want colonial mechas, you'll be better off with turn of the century or interwar """dieselpunk""". That way the tech as advanced sufficiently that you can have a party of adventurers without it becomign a logistical nightmare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_to_Paris

>> No.57317481

>>57317049
>There were forty entrants in the race, but only five teams ended up going ahead with shipping the cars to Peking. The race was held despite the race committee cancelling the race.

That is awesome.

>> No.57317538

>>57317481
Yeah, the first half of the 20th century is full of crazy adventurers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition
>I will prove that it's possible to reach polynesia from peru in an antique raft, and by the way I don't know how to sail or to swim, and I'm afraid of water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Bombard
>I will prove that it's possible to go across the atlantic ocean without any provision, the ocean shall provide me with food and water. My boat is an experimental model, my teammate is abandoning me and the radio isn't working? No problem.

>> No.57317585

>>57313703
I've had the idea for a steampunk setting based on the British Raj in the back of my head for a while now. Playing members of various rebel groups or politicians trying to deal with foreign rule.

>> No.57317607
File: 311 KB, 1099x1024, 1099px-Croisiere_noire.svg[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57317607

>>57317049
pic is from the citroen croisieres, btw
>To draw attention to his half-track vehicles launched in 1922, André Citroën organised a trans-Saharan expedition – Touggourt-Timbuctoo-Touggourt – from 17 December 1922 to 7 March 1923.
>This success was followed by the Croisière Noire expedition, which crossed the African continent from north to south, travelling from Colomb-Béchar to Cape Town, between 28 October 1924 and 26 June 1925.
>The Croisière Jaune expedition crossed Asia, from Beirut to Beijing, between 4 April 1931 and 12 February 1932. Citroën subsequently supplied Admiral Byrd with three half-track vehicles for his Antartic expedition (25 September 1933 – 2 February 1935). It also supplied five vehicles for the Croisière Blanche expedition organised from 4 July to 24 October 1934 in the Rocky Mountains of Canada.
The expeditions were accompagned by a team of scientists, to record the discoveries made en route.
The croisiere jaune crossed conflict zones, resulting in fights and hostage takings.

>> No.57317646

>>57317049
>>57317481
>>57317538
This shit is straight out of a Jules Verne novel. I love it.

>> No.57317655

>>57313903
Thats what I did in my Steampunk campaign. The group was mainly a bunch of subjugated peoples striving to rediscover their culture's magical ways to drive off the colonisers.

>> No.57317741

>>57313589
It's mostly because Steampunk rarely goes into the civil war era, usually it's very late Victorian and early Edwardian (usually 1890s to at most 1910).
A big part for me is how even with all this shit, you never have the Balkan wars, or any let's put the Old Man out if his misery.

>> No.57317811
File: 157 KB, 650x863, Couv_87284[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57317811

>>57317741
>steampunk crimean war
I'm reasonably erect by now

>> No.57317840

>>57313830

>it just reeks of racist bullshit

Depends on what criteria you operate under, some people would argue that adding colonial themes would be racist via glorification.

>> No.57317853
File: 58 KB, 710x561, 31316_1083988800.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57317853

>>57313589
Apparently you are too young or/and too stupid to know the answer.

Also, steampunk is shit-tier setting that is all aesthetics, no substance, how how the fuck you expect from such concept use colonialism or just even generic imperialism as a backdrop, it it's all just cogfop bullshit?

>> No.57317864

>>57317811
I would love a Steampunk Crimean War (or Second Crimean War) that devolves into not just Crimea, but also Armenia and the Balkans. Hell place it in the 1880s and add in some Tesla.

>> No.57317870

>>57317864
>I would like a setting from the 50s, happening in 80s, but playing up stuff from the 10s
What is this? Back to the future?!
Or just another reason why steampunk is shitty "looks over content"?

>> No.57317902

>>57313589
19th century colonial ambitions were grounded entirely in (mostly percieved, rather than actual) situation of the world and ways of controlling it.
Which is utterly untranslatable in fictional setting (unless it being Not!RL 2nd half of 19th century), because you would first have to create a complex and coherent setting for it and then play politics around it. Eseentially something that no GM is going to do just for players to have steam-powered rifles to hunt megafauna in that newly discovered plateu in Peru.

>> No.57317923

>>57317870
Reason I said a second one. One of the huge concepts of Steampunk is supposed to be post difference engine.

>> No.57317926
File: 256 KB, 800x852, ombres%20sur%203[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57317926

>>57317853
I despise the overload of "-punk" settings as much as the next guy, but you're a nincompoop. Being agressive doesn't make you appear smarter, you know.

Call it retro-future or victorian sci-fi, if it's so unbearable for your eyes, stop whining, and answer the question (or hide and ignore, whatever).

>it's all just cogfop bullshit
In 1986, the french magazine J&S published Mega II, the second edition of their universal rpg system. The scenarios included a team of secret agents looking for a scientist that had accidentaly jumped to a parralel dimensions, where flying zulus had invaded great britain with the support of the irish and the rest of the european powers. It features the fragmentation of the british autorities, with the king having to support local warlords to hold the zulus back, mass civilian exodus to scotland, the apparitions of new technology and their morally dubious uses.

tl; dr: when you're that ignorant about a subject, just shut up.
Ya fooking cunt.

It's a little gem of a module, by the way.

>> No.57317932
File: 36 KB, 400x387, Wood_Mann.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57317932

Why does steampunk have so much gearfuckery when it should be more about valves, centrifugues, pistons and connecting rods?

As far as I know steam technology mostly only uses internal gear like system and flywheels look nothing like your typical gear yet in stempunk art they are fucking everywhere, wasnt that supposed to be called "clockpunk"?, when did people stop giving a fuck and made it into an amalgam of "old timey" looking technology?

>> No.57317994

>>57317932
gears are an essential part of mechanical computing.

and almost every industrial machine uses some kind of gear reduction.

>flywheels look nothing like your typical gear
?

>> No.57318011

>>57317923
>One of the huge concepts of Steampunk is supposed to be post difference engine
... said who?
Because surely, you must be aware that Gibson's book is nowdays not just irrevelant, but utterly fucking forgotten.

>> No.57318018
File: 6 KB, 235x206, miss the point.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57318018

>>57317926
>Putting steampunk and retrofuturism in single line and using them interchangably

>> No.57318031
File: 431 KB, 1355x1063, robida-5[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57318031

>>57318018
yes, and?

>> No.57318038

>>57316989
>neoliberal
Maybe you should check what that term actually means before you make a fool out of your self misusing it like that.

>> No.57318067

>>57318031
>What's wrong with trying to put a square peg into a round hole?
Nothing, anon. Nothing.

>> No.57318080
File: 263 KB, 802x768, cache_21398886[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57318080

>>57313589
>"I knew I shouldn't have come to those uncivilized lands full of flesh-eating savages"

>> No.57318096

>>57318067
mind making actual arguments or you gonna continue to beat around the bush?

>> No.57318542

>>57313830

Pretty much. They don't want to deal with the conditions of the factory workers as well tough, it's not really a problem of racism but most steampunk seems to go with the "let's be awesome higher class and all that" thing.

But let's be honest, steampunk communism would be at very least that much cool.

Interestingly enough Blades in the Dark has a whole metric fuckton of labor unions doing labor union-y things (up to terrorism), to the point that I find the high class as evil sociopathic fuckups a little too extreme. But it is a game about lowborn scoundrels.

>> No.57318589

>>57317016
>I always saw Steampunk as an aesthetic, not a genre.
That's why people don't like it, because it is just aesthetic, because it does ignore the historical reality of the period that the aesthetic represents.

>> No.57318600

>>57318589
Let's be real. People don't like steampunk because of the kind of people that like steampunk. It's that simple.

>> No.57318899

>>57318589
>>57317016
Darwinia, La Lune seule le sait, Vynález zkázy, Howl's moving castle... There are a ton of works that use 19th century social structures and events.

>> No.57319343

>>57313589
>>there is basically no colonial focused Steampunk

No colonial based Steampunk? Are fucking retarded or something?

The FIRST steampunk RPGs were almost entirely colonial focused. Games like Space:1889 and Forgotten Futures focused on colonial efforts ranging from Africa to Mars and Venus.

It was only after designers decided to "sanitize" the history the games were based on in the hopes of not "offended" the various "people of color" who never even the RPGs that steampunk RPGs Lords & Ladies faggotry you only knwo about.

>> No.57320025

>>57314655
No such thing, Stu. No such thing.

>> No.57320176
File: 287 KB, 1280x853, Steam in India.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57320176

>>57317585
Sounds pretty great - a steampunk Raj (or a later interwar era one where the Imperial Airship Scheme worked) would be cool, got a great blend of tradition and change, familiar and strange all coming together.

>Untouchable stokers keep the gilded steam-powered Juggernauts of the Princes moving as they tour the land. Soldiers swelter in their armoured vehicles as they stand guard, cooking in the midday heat. The smells of oil and spice intermingle as steam-man rickshaws chug through the markets

>>57317049
>>57317607
These are also pretty amazing

>> No.57320286
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57320286

>>57314527
Murderhobo Fantasy and Space Fascism have less of a hipster faggot stigma associated with it.

>> No.57320496

>>57317016
>labor riots
You just had to ask, anon (subtitles available) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sseXUlSoU0

>> No.57320542

>>57313830
>the icky awfulness of actual colonialism.
>implying colonialism was actually bad

>> No.57320705

Website full of old sci-fi books and pics (scroll till the end of the page)
https://www.merveilleuxscientifique.fr/auteurs/robida-alfred-la-guerre-infernale/

>>57320542
that's not a debate for /tg/ (or 4chan, for that matter). We both know nothing constructive would come out of it.

>> No.57320790
File: 236 KB, 1280x960, French Pre-Drednought La Cuirassé.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57320790

>>57320496
Not bad - really there should be more frence steampunk stuff considering how big an impact Verne is on the genre - obviously for him it was sci-fi but that's not the point

>> No.57320892
File: 504 KB, 450x514, French Illustration La Guere Infernale - Zeppelin troops.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57320892

>>57320790
Also this series of French illustrations: La Guerre Infernale is great inspiration
https://www.merveilleuxscientifique.fr/auteurs/robida-alfred-la-guerre-infernale/

France of course had an empire nearly as extensive as Britain, and had an obsession with flight (the first use of "air power" in war was the reconnaissance balloons of the French Aerostatic Corps (aka the Company of Aeronauts) founded in 1794.

>> No.57321016

>>57318542
And not hard to accomplish, since Karl
Marx was around during the time.

I feel it’s okay to steal elements from the 18th and 20th century when looking for plot, themes and inspiration. I think you just need a base of imperial monarchies to start off with.

>> No.57321179

>>57313589
Steampunk is exclusively done by white people, who don’t like being reminded that they were racist pricks for most of history. They like to pretend they’ve moved beyond it, and like colonialism never happened

>> No.57321205
File: 278 KB, 2048x1536, worldbuilding_with_pol.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57321205

>this thread

>> No.57321206

>>57321016
>feel it’s okay to steal elements from the 18th and 20th century when looking for plot, themes and inspiration.
Yeah, 100% - especially if you want to incorporate elements of rebellion which aren't "and then everyone got blasted by grapeshot/cut down by gatling guns when the artillery arrived, and retribution was visited on their community".

I mean, you can have that too - a steampunk Sepoy Rebellion might be neat, for example - but the idea of taking elements and inspiration from before and after and fitting it into the setting is fine, and used all the time in media.

To take TV example, M*A*S*H was set in the Korean war, but a lot of what it was talking about was the Vietnam war (related to the post above yours actually, the Vietnam war(s) started when it was "French Indochina", so you could use a whole load of Vietnam war elements in a steampunk game set there)

>> No.57321277
File: 158 KB, 1280x885, 68a73041[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57321277

>>57320790
They have quite a lot of it, but in general french genre production tends to be different enough from the main anglo trends that they don't get translated in english.

In comics I would recommend the Cycle of Ostruce, staging a proletarian revolution against the tsarist dragon and the counter-revolution of the whites, with cossack amazons, ghoul cities, anarchist ogres and sapient airships.
The art isn't very regular, but otherwise it's very solid.


>>57320892
>>57320705
That's very specific hivemind we got there, anon. Are you me?

>> No.57321334
File: 457 KB, 1280x898, French Pre-Drednought Charlemagne.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57321334

>>57321277
>Are you me?
... I might be.
I take it you also have a decent collection of French pre-dreadnought pics?

I got that link from /tg/ though, so it might just have been the last time you shared

>> No.57321335

>>57319343
So you mean after it had ceased being a genre that had it's roots in Verne and Wells, as well as alternate history, and not an aesthetic by late teen and 20-something hipsters?

>> No.57321401

>>57321206
Exactly. Themes I like include fascist takeover (because they are fantastic bad guys, take all the ills of steampunk to its logical conclusion, and the aesthetics blend together fantastically), building up to a final endwar (WW1), and Democratic Revolution (American/French Revolution).

>> No.57321430

>>57321335

Exactly.

>> No.57321520

Colonialism was unironically a good thing, probably why not much is shown of it being bad.

>> No.57321595
File: 221 KB, 1680x1050, steampunk sunset.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57321595

>>57321401
Yep. I mean it can just be sticking cool things together and seeing what works, but honestly that's fine. That's how a lot of good shit happens

Speaking of taking themes/events from elsewhere, I've seen people on /tg/ complain that there's not enough "punk" in steampunk so I made the following premise for a game:

>The scene is Cottonopolis, one of the biggest, wealthiest and busiest cities in the Empire
>A city powered by steam, filled with mills, warehouses and factories, choked by smoke and soot
>A city of industry, innovation, and booming business
>A city of exploitation, depravation, and incredible desperation
>Inequality is rampant, the poor wasting away from starvation and addiction while the rich build themselves palaces and temples of wealth

>[The group] are attending a radical speech at the city’s lesser free trade hall one hot summer’s eve
>No-one knows it yet, but this speech will shake the Empire, change the world
>It’s not like the hall is full – it’s at less than a third of capacity, there are about 40 people there, including [the group]
>But almost all of them will go on to make the history books – as firebrand journalists, the men who will launch the doomed “people’s factory”, the future leaders of the militant new order
>The speaker isn’t very eloquent, or nuanced, or even very clear on what their policies are really, but they’re full of passion and anger
>They rant and rail against the system, rights, the rich, and the state of the nation, waving a gun about and crudely gesturing about how everything is fucked (with the help of a whore) and calling for change and revolution
>Despite their lack of skill, their raw anger inspires the crowd – some in support, some in opposition, many with their own ideas
>On this day the fires of revolutions are kindled
>[The group] is perfectly placed to be near the centre of things to come

It's literally based on a notable punk concert

>> No.57321637

>>57316837
>How!?

Probably the same way being a wehraboo.

>> No.57321867
File: 91 KB, 620x349, robots storm winter palace.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57321867

>>57321401
Revolutions are pretty cool, and adding steampunk mechs/robots to that is great too - hell, the Russian Revolution (accidentally) had robots in one textbook, but making that the reality could be pretty rad

>> No.57321903

>>57313703
Chinese and indians could have less advanced steamtech maybe

>> No.57322387

>>57321334
>>57321277
Pre-dreads always look so funky

>>57321903
What, have steam tech as a kind of gunpowder analogue?

>> No.57323733

>>57313703
>You could advance the tech of the natives, but I think that invalidates the idea.
Do the Warmahordes thing and give natives giant monsters to fight the steam powered robots.

>> No.57324310
File: 70 KB, 800x504, camel gunner.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57324310

>>57313703
>I think it’d be pretty boring to have steam-powered robots fighting native cavalry.
I don't know, I think if you add realistic flaws, weaknesses and limitations to the , and don't make the tech super-amazing it could be interesting.
For example, Her Majesty's Mechanical Hussars are highly effective - when there's plenty of fuel, oil and spare parts. In the European theatre this isn't a problem, but on the plains of Africa those are hard to come by.
The tech is superior, but the more you have, the greater the logistical strain is and the greater the potential for arrogance-induced mishaps.

>You could advance the tech of the natives, but I think that invalidates the idea.
A lot of weapons used against colonists were bought from other colonists, so it would make sense on a limited scale.
Less so for bigger or more complex steam-tech stuff, but against things like armoured cars (or more realistic walker) an anti-tank rifle will do, and that's mostly just a big gun - not too complex for your Khyber Pass types, and big guns would be in Africa anyway (there's a reason AT rifles were nicknamed Elephant Guns).
The trope of "multi-million dollar fighting machine getting knocked out by a goat farmer with an RPG" isn't new, after all - hell, there's even a Kipling poem about that type of thing (I mean, it's a "noble" officer, but it still fits), Arithmetic on the Frontier

>> No.57324377

>>57321205
I think most people are saying that that stuff is actually bad, which is why steampunk is bad.

>> No.57324530
File: 296 KB, 800x521, Camel troops from Ausie, Brit, Kiwi and Indian battalions of the Imperial Camel Corps.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57324530

>>57324310
Might as well post it.

>Arithmetic on the Frontier

A great and glorious thing it is
To learn, for seven years or so,
The Lord knows what of that and this,
Ere reckoned fit to face the foe -
The flying bullet down the Pass,
That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

Three hundred pounds per annum spent
On making brain and body meeter
For all the murderous intent
Comprised in "villainous saltpetre".
And after?- Ask the Yusufzaies
What comes of all our 'ologies.

A scrimmage in a Border Station-
A canter down some dark defile
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail.
The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

No proposition Euclid wrote
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's downward blow.
Strike hard who cares - shoot straight who can
The odds are on the cheaper man.

One sword-knot stolen from the camp
Will pay for all the school expenses
Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
But, being blessed with perfect sight,
Picks off our messmates left and right.

With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem.
The troopships bring us one by one,
At vast expense of time and steam,
To slay Afridis where they run.
The "captives of our bow and spear"
Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

>> No.57326389
File: 405 KB, 972x808, Ottoman1KT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57326389

>>57317741
>>57317811
>Steampunk crimean war
>IRL first major use of telegraphs, naval shells, armoured warships, tactical use of railways
>Infamous for both heroics and military stupidity
>Spy shenanigans in Constantinople
>Oriental aesthetic and historical factors meets european steampunk empire in one country

>> No.57326427

>>57326389
>Crimean War
>Oriental
Do you even know where Crimea is? Or that most of the war was fought there and in fucking Baltic?

>> No.57326565
File: 240 KB, 664x1041, Ottoman2KT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57326565

>>57326427
>Oriental
That was referring to the ottoman empire - with the British dumbass usage of "oriental" in it's very very broadest expanse i.e.: "anything east of the Med", which thinking about it is actually really inaccurate, but I can't go back and un-fuck the post so there you go

>> No.57326760 [DELETED] 

>>57324377
>European Colonialism was bad m'kay?
>not realizing that every culture that accepted European colonialism is better off because of it
in terms of standard of living, Europe > Cooperative Colonies > uncooperative colonies = never colonized
the portions of India that benefited from british colonization are much better off than portions of Africa that decided to dispossess and in many cases murder their European lords.
see links below; Britain in particular invested extraordinary sums into developing the economies and infrastructures of their colonies and most frequently either did not tax colonies at all, or taxed them far less than their own citizens. Britain in particular viewed colonies as an economic investment. Create a market and an economic infrastructure which, once well established, feeds back into British well being. It's why the British were able to afford their massive navy and standing army in the first place.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/07/03/tea-taxes-and-the-revolution/
http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/articles/moghul_3.pdf

>> No.57326860

>>57314527
Mostly because it has "punk" in its name, is ostensibly a spin on the ideas of cyberpunk, while also betraying everything punk about it.

>> No.57327004

>>57313589
The super serum breastmilk mangaka's latest work isn't steampunk, but I think it will scratch your itch.

>> No.57327240
File: 447 KB, 1247x848, Turkish Heliograph.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57327240

>>57327004
>super serum breastmilk mangaka
Probably going to regret asking, but what?

>> No.57327777
File: 151 KB, 758x1055, Dieselpunk Dragoons.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57327777

>> No.57327812
File: 52 KB, 300x305, 18476354.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57327812

I think it'd be interesting to explore the liberal motivations behind colonialism. It was much, much more than just expansionist dudes wanting to plunder the natural riches of lesser civilizations.

And when I say liberal I do mean the proper liberal ideology of the 19th century, not the modern american definition.

>> No.57328484

>>57317994
Flywheels even don't look like gears. Yet you see gears doing what would be the job of a flywheel.
>>57313589
Because steampunk is a bunch of larper shit. Make Campaign for North Africa steampunk
like >>57324377 said and you can be sure I'll be doing it.

>> No.57328553

>>57327812
Honestly, I'd really want to include that as a component - through characters who genuinely believe in improving the lives of the people they're colonising.

I'd have them alongside those who just see resources, and those who have motives related to influencing and counter-influencing the region, but I see no reason not to have people who believe in spreading liberal values (and other values).

Though I do wonder if cynicism might get in the way.

>>57328484
>Campaign for North Africa
You'd probably have better luck convincing a group to actually adventure in Africa than you would playing that

>> No.57329321

>>57327240
Author made a manga about his magical realm and finished it. His newest manga is about a fantasy world that's advanced into the 1910s. Unfortunately it's also a fanservice-laden isekai story, so it's complete trash. If you've ever seen the posted pages of a tall brown curvy girl being called a dwarf, that's from the manga.

>> No.57329409

>>57329321
I have not, but that summation doesn't interest me at all, so I'll let it be.

It's not the one with the centaur with an anti-tank rifle is it?
Their parade uniforms owe quite a bit to british household cavalry

>> No.57329489
File: 405 KB, 870x950, not a dwarf 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57329489

>>57329409
I was referring to this one actually. British centaur is Mikoyan, and AFAIK he hasn't released any officially published manga yet.

>> No.57329605
File: 145 KB, 450x511, posh orc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57329605

>>57329489
That's... not a dwarf, no.

Hadn't really thought much about steampunk settings with fantasy races, but it might work I guess

>> No.57329788
File: 1021 KB, 288x162, aww yesh.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57329788

>>57314092
>ghost shirts really work
>Chinese spirit possession is an actual thing
>Bantu mythology is not a myth

>> No.57329954

>>57313589
Mortal Engines is about it, sort of

>> No.57330067

>>57326389
>first major use of telegraphs,
>tactical use of railways
>not the American Civil War

Bruh

It also massively changed the usage of cavalry in conventional armies, with widespread adoption of rifles and the Minnie Ball rendering the heavy cavalry charge suicidal. Cavalry became a raiding and harassing force instead of a shock force virtually overnight.

>> No.57330161

>>57314673
>that's just a shallow diversion
No shit, it's a game of pretend. They are ONE AND ALL shallow diversions.

>> No.57330238

>>57330067
>American Civil War
>1861 – 1865

>Crimean War
>1853 – 1856

Bruh

Also the Crimean war involved 4 major powers (and Sardinia), at the time the American Civil war involved none

>> No.57330290

>>57328553
Implying I need much convincing to start the enriching of africa again
>>57330161
You know what he fucking means

>> No.57330353

>>57330067
Except Cavalry continued to be used extensively in conflicts; both in Europe and in colonial theaters especially.

It was the Boer Wars and the First World War that put an end to cavalry; the Americans didn't even use Cavalry properly in the ACW.

>> No.57330582
File: 193 KB, 638x975, Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57330582

>>57330353
Hell, the eastern front in WWI was ALL about cavalry, very few trenches over there.

And interwar/Russian civil war had a big cavalry emphasis - and it's where one of /tg/'s historical meme badasses got his time too

Not to mention that in WWII the German Army moved so much stuff by horse - sure, not combat rolls, but still

>> No.57332227

>>57330353
>the Americans didn't even use Cavalry properly in the ACW.

While the another anon is dumb and got the dates wrong, the Union and CSA learned very, very quickly that a cavalry charge against massed infantry, when said infantry was armed with minnie ball rifles, was near suicide. Horses were big fat targets, and rifles were deadly accurate compared to the smoothbores that had previously been fielded by American armies, so they were relatively easy to pick off at less than 100yds. Hell, Texas literally fielded a company of lancers, and they got fucking annihilated by riflemen in their first and only action in AZ.

This meant that cavalry was only effective as a mobile screen, raiders, or as a shock assault force against artillery or other cavalry. The horse still had its uses, but gone were the days of the glorious cavalry charge into the flank of enemy infantry except in very specific circumstances.

It didn't help that the Union cavalry were poorly trained and the Confederate cavalry were poorly armed and barely disciplined (that said, Confederate cavalry was still considered almost universally better than Union cavalry).

Basically, the ACW was a war fought by political generals trying to get Indian Fighters to fight using Napoleonic tactics with weaponry that made such tactics absolutely murderous, and brigade and division leaders (and eventually those leaders who became generals, such as Sherman and Jackson) improvising on the fly when said tactics inevitably failed, coming up with entirely new ways of waging war and battlefield tactics (the earliest being "stop putting the fucking case-shot cannons in front of the infantry when your opponent has rifles that equal your artillery range, you fucking imbeciles") that radically altered American (and many European nations) military thought.

>> No.57332992

>>57332227
There was barely any use of Cavalry in the shock role and no real attempt to form or train cavalry for heavy usage as the expertise wasn't there; it wasn't due to technological improvements or battlefield tactics; the ACW was not a war which saw grand tactical advances; mostly it saw them ignoring lessons of the Crimean and even the Napoleonic War and having infantry blasting the shit out of each other at close range instead of assaulting or closing properly.

For example; there was no effort made to create a proper corp of the types of cavalry traditionally employed; the Austro-Prussian War saw breechloading bolt action rifles in mass use, and yet lancers and other heavy cavalry were employed successfully; the same in the Franco-Prussian War, the former taking place a few years before the ACW and the latter after. There just wasn't the epxertise or experience in North America to train conventional cavalry and so these units never saw battlefield use. The ACW was a war fought by amateurs in a backwater made horrific by the improvement of technology.

>> No.57333004

>>57332227
>The minie ball

Nations in Europe were using breechloaders as their standard arms, not muzzleloading rifles and they kept using cavalry in the shock role well into the 1910s.

>> No.57333195

>>57314127
Not that carefully. Steampunk is inherently magical, anyway. The excuse is usually aetheric waves or "muh tesla" (and god damn am I sick of THAT name in these settings. The man actually accomplished very fucking little in the grand scheme of things and made any number of unverifiable claims, but he's held up as a scientific god.) But, tech doesn't work without some kind of phlebotinum, which, like psionics or mysticism, is just magic by another name.

>> No.57333259

>>57313589
Because colonialism is 100% not fun.

>> No.57333272

>>57333259
It's fun for one side.

>> No.57333276

What's punk about it?

>> No.57333463

>>57333195
Wouldn't all sci-fi be also magical, by your definition?

>> No.57333508

>>57333463
No. Proper sci-fi tries to extrapolate possible new sciences or applications of current sciences, not just make shit up. The moment it involves FTL travel, psionics or metaphysics (looking at you, Star Wars), or human-friendly planets that weren't terraformed to be that way, then it ceases to be sci-fi and becomes science-fantasy.

It's a fine line and all too many sci-fi stories cross into science-fantasy, but it's there.

>> No.57333600
File: 45 KB, 604x292, 1489135708846.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57333600

>>57313703
People often underestimate how crafty these "natives" can be when it comes to defending their homeland, using logs to disable tanks and guerilla warfare to ambush riflemen. I'm sure everyone has heard of the Zulu managing to wrest victories from English machine gun emplacements in spite of their virtual lack of firearms. Imagine Conan the barbarian and Cimmeria or expies thereof fighting off this strange type of invader from his land, using the wits and guile that pushed him through earlier to wrest minute victories. He knows he can't keep this up forever, perhaps seeing that the time of "civilization" has come at last, and the biggest tragedy is that the cogfops on the other side can't seem to comprehend what they're doing wrong. As far as they're concerned, they're giving his nation the gift of being civilized.

Play up the romanticism and naivety on both ends, for steampunk tends to look at the industrialist as the protagonist or at least a force that has only the best intentions more often than not, that the industrialists sincerely wish to usher a golden age for man, yet don't know what they're destroying in order to achieve it. You can even have them try and be proto-environmentalists, "saving" the natives from their own savage nature and locking them up in themepark-esque reserves so they can continue their lifestyle at their heart's content.

>> No.57333705

>>57333600
Which English machine gun emplacements? At Isandlwana they only had two mountain field guns.

>> No.57333739

>>57313830
Just one of the billion things that cogfop ignores in favor of The Amazing Adventures of Sir Coghat and His Merry Band of Oh So Quirky Zeppelin Enthusiasts. Guess that being a prole forced to work 16 hours a day 6 days of week in horrible conditions under a management that is willing to use force against you at the first sign of you unionizing or being some unlucky bastard stuck in some disease ridden tropical hell hole waging war against natives armed with stolen/traded/scavenged western tech mixed with whatever shit their shamans have managed to cook up isn't appealing to steampunk's target audience.

>> No.57333770

>>57313703
>steam powered robots fighting natives
>skirmished between colonial powers
>internal conflicts between natives

All of these things are awesome, if steampunk had this I'd actually be interested

>> No.57333791

What about all that Martian stuff that seems quite popular within the niche genre on the tabletop?

>> No.57333849
File: 11 KB, 236x310, 1512907245307.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57333849

>>57333705
Ulundi.
>http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol045dh.html

>> No.57333933

>>57313830
>>57333739
Let's be honest, here. Fans of every setting (except maybe 40K) tend to ignore the horribleness of their world. When's the last time you explore the grinding life and constant fear of rapine and pillaging of a not!medieval peasant in your fantasy game? Or, the horrible abuses of the natives and the rampant disease, violence and pedophilia of your not!wild west setting? Or the inherent terribleness of being an inhuman monster in your urban horror game? Or... or... or...

It's all bullshit. Hating on the cogfops is just trendy.

>> No.57333965
File: 47 KB, 564x752, 1515118866449.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57333965

>>57333739
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHWdXIEcFNw
But I think something decent can be wrested out of this mindset, as Steampunk is one of the only settings that treats the corporation holder/industrialist/mad scientist/noble/the man as a protagonist, as opposed to Cyberpunk which assumes that there are no good CEOs. You get a far different message portraying the nobles as and businessmen as people genuinely looking out to better the world then you would if you had them be just another authoritarian entity looking to hold onto/gain power, and it brings this sense of dualism and tragedy, especially if you link Steampunk and the period it's associated with leading up to the World Wars of the 20th century as well as the exploitation that their nefarious descendants would wrought in a dark reprise, using the technology and infrastructure they developed, the technology that they made to be bigger than humanity in order to help it to control and enslave it instead when the time comes for a transition into a dieselpunk and later cyberpunk world (as "realistic" steampunk settings would logically never be able to last longer than a century due to the sheer amount of coal it takes to operate theoretical steam-powered analogues of modern technology. You can have a non-magical steampunk world, >>57333195, but it wouldn't be able to stay that way for more than a few generations without destroying itself from resource depletion.)

>> No.57333978

>>57313589
because Steampunk is garbage

>> No.57334307

What is steampunk supposed to be exactly

>> No.57334367

>>57334307
Really, it's supposed to be stories of social rebellion in a Victorian setting, or at least a setting with Victorian-level technology and cultural mores. What it winds up being is not!magic and Gears All Up In This Bitch, Yo!.

>> No.57334469

>>57333965
>as opposed to Cyberpunk which assumes that there are no good CEOs.
Cyberpunk is right though, corporations are cultural and civic poison.

>> No.57334527
File: 164 KB, 460x345, rise-of-nations-rise-of-legends-20060222112135658-000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57334527

>>57313703
>>57314092
>how to make natives interesting
Just go full rise of legends
Magical glass based desert dwellers
Alien tech jungle dwellers

>> No.57334554
File: 10 KB, 322x157, images-2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57334554

>>57333978
This. All "punk" including punk punk is garbage

>> No.57334573

>>57333739
>Guess that being a prole forced to work 16 hours a day 6 days of week
I already work in real life
Why would i want to roleplay a worse version of my daily life

I dont get this fucking complaint.
Yku dont play as the sararimen in cyberpunk rpgs so why do people expect that out of steampunk?

>> No.57334590

>>57334573
I think they complaint is that a noble most likely wouldn't be for social revolution in Victorian times

>> No.57334614

>>57320790
Problem is, the French are /actual/ hipsters of steampunk. They were really into it before it was cool, so they're mostly over it. The French are more into Gallo-Weeb fusion animation now.

>> No.57335527
File: 469 KB, 1920x974, tea AH.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57335527

>>57334590
How often do you see people going for social revolution in cyberpunk though?

Honestly though, using the "punk" (and lack thereof) in steampunk as a justification for hating it is just like criticising someone's spelling or words when disagreeing with their argument - it's almost never the real reason, but it's an easy and obvious excuse, especially when you don't feel like typing a big long thing about it.
I mean you could just say "I'm not a fan", or not say anything at all, but some people feel the need to shit on it and just pick the most low-effort way

>> No.57335703

>>57330582
>that motherfucker right there.
Post the link anon, he deserves it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_von_Ungern-Sternberg.

>>57333600
I'm getting more and more interested as this thread goes on.

>>57333508
I would say that proper sci-fi interests itself in the introduction of a new element and its effects on the society. Asimov's Robots series had several telepathic bots, yet is hardly science-fantasy.

>> No.57335711

>>57334573
>he wouldn't want to roleplay as a salaryman working for faceless, malevolent corporation
>he wouldn't want to carefully balance your work, in and out corporation social lives
>he wouldn't want to be constantly on edge looking for a chance to climb higher on the corporate ladder while protecting yourself from those below of you
>he wouldn't want to carefully plan your white-collar crimes so that the fallout from them will take out your rivals
>he wouldn't want spend months of in-game time to suck up your boss only to replace him when your plans come to fruition
>he wouldn't want to roleplay a "friendly" after work drinking session where your social skills are challenged and any mistake can be fatal to your career
>he wouldn't want to try to get home/sleeping cubicle in one piece following hours of non-stop drinking while avoiding natural hazards and whatever thugs your rival has hired to kill/beat up you

>> No.57335786

>>57313830
>unironically using "icky" to describe something you don't like
>>>/tumblr/

>> No.57335911

>>57313589
No idea but it sucks. I'd love to play as a white man enlightening the dark continent.

>> No.57335975
File: 148 KB, 800x1200, Steampunk Prosthesis.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57335975

>>57335711
Sounds like a good mini-campaign, but it'd probably have to be a one-shot or something close - seems like it might be good for Player vs Player though, everyone competing in an office while nominally working "with" each other

Ironically that style of campaign, with a heavy social aspect, minimal combat, and Player vs Player would work well for a group of steampunk aristocrats (just replace "boss" with "social superior"), so go figure

>> No.57336085
File: 69 KB, 535x660, 1509498906425.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57336085

>>57334614
>Steampunk alternate history setting where Jules Brunet's lifespan was artificially expanded and he leads a corps of French Samurai on the African front
>The setting is called "The really really Last Samurai: we were only kidding last time"

>> No.57336260
File: 149 KB, 717x564, French Military Adviser Brunet and Japanese allies.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57336260

>>57336085
>Jules Brunet
I did not know about this man, but he sure sounds pretty rad - first in Mexico, then in Japan fighting for a side that was on its way out, but with plenty of bravery and honour - and then going back to France and having a fairly glorious rest of a career ending as Minister of War

>> No.57336271

>>57336260
In Japan he also advocated for a pretty rad state as a solution to the civil war. He wanted to turn Hokkaido into a democratic republic of samurai. Not even kidding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ezo
Imagine if that shit survived.

>> No.57336502

>>57335703
>Post the link anon, he deserves it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_von_Ungern-Sternberg

that was a wild, wild ride

holy shit

>> No.57336818
File: 95 KB, 690x652, Stonewall-Kotetsu.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57336818

>>57336271
>Imagine if that shit survived
I can't see how it would, realistically - maybe if France got really pissed off about their Mission and also wanted another position against Russia I could see a kind of client thing going on if France and Japan agreed to use Ezo as a bulwark/pawn against Russia (seeing as the only Ezo objective that had any success was getting Japan to care about their northern border I'd say
that's only hugely implausible)

Still, can't deny that a French-influenced steampunk samurai republic doesn't sound amazing
>Daimyo Arai Jacques, captain of the Kotetsu II

>> No.57337659

>>57335703
>Asimov's Robots series had several telepathic bots, yet is hardly science-fantasy.
I disagree. He gave some handwavium excuses for it and renamed it "mentallics" rather than psionics, but ultimately it was psionics and therefor magic by another spelling. If you get rid of the mentallics then the Foundation universe becomes pure sci-fi. With it, though, it steps into sci-fan, at least in my opinion.

>> No.57338676

>>57316989
>neoliberal
The neoliberal position is that unfettered markets and minimal government intervention are better producers of prosperity than Keynesian intervention. Economists ain't got shit to say about racism.

>> No.57338708

>>57313830
This.

>> No.57338740

>>57320542
It doesn't have to be bad. The people who like cogfap are also the people who think that portraying colonialism is "problematic"

>> No.57338763

>>57338676
>neoliberal
I hear that buzzword a lot and all explanations I can find are unsatisfactory, but what are the differences between neoliberalism and classical liberalism? What makes neoliberalism... well, new?

>> No.57338833

>>57334614
>tfw no Gallo-Weeb Steampunk Animation

>> No.57338839

>>57338763
neoliberalism (AKA progressivism) is about uplifting minorities and social justice
classical liberalism is about basic human rights and personal responsibility, and democracy (people having a say in how they are governed)

>> No.57338935

>>57313589
Man, a steampunk version of your pic related would be pretty rad - for those not in the know, Cecil Rhodes intended to build the Cape to Cairo rail and telegraph links - the continent-spanning railway still has yet to be completed, thanks to various issues, mostly instability and the great depression hitting during the one time Britain actually owned the whole route. And, at one point, man-eating lions kept disrupting work.

>> No.57339469

>>57338839

I'd argue you are incorrect about your definition of neoliberalism. However, that is the tricky thing with defining neoliberalism, as different commentators connect different positions to the same name.

For instance, I'd say the Conservative governments of Margaret Thatcher and John Major were neoliberal, due to their rejection of the post-war economic consensus and rejection of nationalised state industries. They did not give two shits about 'uplifting minorities and social justice'.

>> No.57339528
File: 57 KB, 800x433, French steampunk - April and the Extraordinary World.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57339528

I want this >>57338833 of this >>57336271, >>57336818, it'd be glorious.

And can you imagine the porn!

>> No.57339574
File: 258 KB, 1600x866, avril-et-le-monde.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57339574

>>57320790
From the french the animation movie "April and the extraordinary world" is quite good, on the "punk" aspect.

Moorcock "Warlord of the Air" is a proto steampunk novel with themes of colonialism.

Also the french miniatures game "Smog 1888" had a lot of colonial themes (opium wars and the yellow menace, for the most part)

I would love to read one day some of the french steampunk novels like "Confessions d'un automate mangeur d'opium" by Mathieu Gaborit

>> No.57339692

>>57313830
What part of it is more racist than literally every other society before them? Is medieval society just as 'problematic' to you?

Prejudice is part of the human condition, what makes a setting interesting. Steampunk is vacuous and shallow due to the fact its too clean.

I'd suggest looking at tribal practices before colonism before casting a few rocks

>> No.57339915

>>57324310
That’s a good way to think about it. David and Goliath with some lesser tech to even out the odds.

Like the idea of a dragon slayer knight taking on a colossus dragon through sheer skill and determination, with the parts moved around to Comanches sniping tank commanders with anti-materiel rifles.

>> No.57339922 [DELETED] 
File: 169 KB, 1920x1080, 1515234299606.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57339922

>potentially interesting world building thread ruined by tumblr saying things are "icky" and crying about racism, Drumpf and /pol/
Noice

>> No.57339991

>>57333195
For me, my sensibilities highly favor magic vs. science if the two are to go toe to toe. So the idea of western industry vs. native magic highlights the bad implications with steampunk.

>> No.57340073

>>57338676
Isn’t that libertarianism? Which is considered to be conservative?

That said I respect those guys. They are all kinds of crazy, but they are at least honest about their economic intents, and aren’t hung up about race and religion on every fricking issue.

>> No.57340117

>>57321205
Are you trying to imply that outside of one or two points, she's right?

>> No.57340218

>>57339528
>>57339574
Again the hivemind for french steampunk stuff

>> No.57340246

>>57339692
Medieval Societies were largely homogenous ethnically, and thus race was never an issue for most societies (outside of torching Jewish ghettoes on occasion). So it’s pretty easy when basing stuff on medieval eras or prior (as the Romans and Bronze Age societies were very egalitarian) to involve racial themes without condoning, you know, colonialism, imperialism, social Darwinism, the white mans burden, racial castes, chattel slavery, and white supremacy, which were policy positions f damn near every major power.

>> No.57340388

>>57314709
There's actually a book with a very similar premise. City of Stairs is very much this but reversed with steampunk Indians trying to hold off against magical Russians with their reincarnated gods and magic.

>> No.57340590

>>57324530
This is awesome, thank you.

>> No.57340947

>>57338839
>neoliberalism (AKA progressivism)
You could've just checked it instead of being wrong.
Neoliberalism is neither new (neo) nor liberal in the way of "freedom for those in need". The thing about "freedom" is always in the question "for who and for what?" neoliberals answer "for the rich and money".
Money shall be free of control and the rich shall be free to do whatever the fuck they want.
The rest, well the founders of Neoliberalism Hayek, Milton and Mises were absolute fans of fascist Chile and actively worked with them. Let's just say the rest does get free helicopter rides should he or she dare oppose. Only neoliberal oppinion matters. One of the first things there was the closing down of all economics departments that did not teach it. One was left, of the catholic church, that teached it.

It's all about making the rich richer at the cost of the normal shitters like us. Which worked in favour of the former, their accounts grew by 230% in the last 20 years. As opposed to the latter, those shrunk by 30%.
The mental gymnastics is that if the richer get richer, somehow all are better off. It never worked even once so far. Which hasn't stopped the "western world" from adapting it. Taxes plummeting for the rich, infrastructure getting privatized, public investments cut. Only the military is growing. Rich folks need it to get more colonies and fuck off the poorfags if needed.

The whole thing is nothing more than a rebranding of manchester capitalism under a new fancy name shortly after the war.

Anon, few things could be more off whatever you mean by progressesivm.

>> No.57341041

>>57338763
Neoliberalism is the twentieth-century return to classical [economic] liberalism that attempts to address the Keynesian ideas that had gained influence. As >>57339469 mentions, late-20th c. conservative governments tend to have neoliberal economic policies.

Some people seem to want it to mean "whatever I don't like about the American Democratic Party." Those people are dumb as shit and not worth engaging with.

>> No.57341092

>>57340947
Isn’t that just modern conservatism, aka Reaganism, aka trickle down economics?

>> No.57341418

>>57341092

Yeah it is. Thats the problem with the word 'liberalism', its vague and refers to many very different things

>> No.57341492

>>57333600
>I'm sure everyone has heard of the Zulu managing to wrest victories from English machine gun emplacements in spite of their virtual lack of firearms.

Everyone had heard of that? That's rather surprising seeing as it never happened, fuckwit.

The Zulus did manage to beat UK and colonial troops a few times, but only fucking morons like yourself think they Zulus beat machine guns.

>> No.57341541

>>57333849
But that was a British victory.

>> No.57341567

>>57334590
But plenty of noblemen were revolutionaries and rebels.

>> No.57341606

>>57341418
It’s annoying how people can use words in that way. And disturbing how often it works.

>> No.57341607

>>57329605
>That's... not a dwarf, no.
It's a not!Muslim. I'm not really sure why the author is calling it a dwarf either.

>> No.57341647

>>57341492
This. Ulundi saw Britain's first use of Gatlings in the field; it was a massive success, with the utter crushing of Zulu military power as a properly placed square utterly decimated the Zulu ranks, with the deaths of less than a dozen Brits and the destruction of the Zulu state, with Cetshwayo kaMpande captured a few days later and sent to London under exile.

>> No.57341870

>>57333849
From the link you posted:

>There is no doubt that Gingindlovu and Ulundi provided the best examples of the correct tactics to follow in small wars such as the Zulu War. Strict adherence to the rules, with well-disciplined troops to carry them out, made victory inevitable.

The Zulus never beat machine guns; indeed, they only beat the British really once and that was due to poor dispersion in laager and field discipline on the part of the British commanders rather than Zulu skill (and even then, it was a 20 to 1 numerical advantage on the Zulu part that allowed them to do so.).

>> No.57342233

>>57338763
I would say that neoliberalism is responding to a different environment to classical liberalism, and because of that has different ideas about the problems and solutions that need to be implemented.
For example privatization has historically been one of the major neoliberal policy goals. This wasn't a particularly large concern in the minds of classical liberal thinkers because there was far less state to privatize.

It is also often argued >>57340947 that neoliberalism places massive emphasis on economic freedoms while largely ignoring political and social freedoms. The extent to which you think this is the case and the extent to which you think this differs from classical liberal views of freedom are probably to complicated to puzzle out here.

>> No.57342298

>>57342233
The biggest problem with neoliberalism is that the state and corporations are too closely linked and capital far more concentrated than at any time in previous history; the state is too big and corporatism is too potent a force; globalism exasperates this problem even more as it facilitates such huge movements of people and capital to further make both situations worse; corpratism increases and the state increases.

>> No.57342361

>>57314092
But then people complain that you're missing the point of Lovecraft even if that's not what you were going for in the first place.

>> No.57342419

>>57316837
It glorifies the achievements of one race while ignoring the other. Still better than the Clockwork Empires thing which adds "minority" races to the British analogue without any reference to the fact that they're not ethnically English in a period where that was a huge deal, and still includes miscegenation-analogue innsmouth shenanigans.

>> No.57342468

>>57316658
There were lots of people for whom it actually was, though. It may not have been the primary objective of governments, because that's not how governments work, but there were lots of religious (and particularly monastic) groups where that was their main goal and some who still do exactly that in the developing world.

>> No.57342608

>>57317481
The cheeky winner taking a detour was a nice detail too, but not as legendary as this man.
>Second in the race was Charles Goddard in the Spyker; he had no money, had to ask others for petrol, and borrowed his car for the race. He was arrested for fraud near the end of the race.

>> No.57342901

>>57333600
>You can even have them try and be proto-environmentalists, "saving" the natives from their own savage nature and locking them up in themepark-esque reserves
Isn't that about a third of the plot of Brave New World?

>> No.57342906

>>57341607
Because people complain about how Dwarves are all the same.

>> No.57342941

>>57342906
Yeah but I doubt a mangaka browses and lets /tg/ discussions influence his work.

>> No.57343504

>>57335786
>unironically
Pretty sure your reading comprehension needs some work, mate. He's deriding steampunk folks by insinuating that they're the very demographic you're accusing him of being.

>> No.57344907
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57344907

>>57339528
>Gee Jean-Jacques, why does the emperor allow you to have TWO eiffel towers?
>Overpriced trinkets

>> No.57345226 [DELETED] 
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57345226

>>57329489
>Dwarven men
>Short, stocky, bearded

>"Dwarven" women
>Tall, slender, curvacious, indistinguishable from highly attractive human women

>Dwarves keep their women covered from head to toe
>Two chapters after this rule is established the dwarven princess fights in bikini armor with only a transparant veil covering the lower half of her face

>> No.57345493

How about this for a concept-

European powers begin decolonization due to finances or some such.

Native powers remain within colonial masters sphere, or start competing with others for influence, but now have their own steampunk tech.

Thoughts?

>> No.57346804

>>57345493
You're pretty much just advancing the historical period until now, though.

>> No.57346832
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57346832

>>57318542
>>57321867
Steampunk soviets would be pretty neat - sure, they're often done dieselpunk for obvious reasons, but they have a cool aesthetic and neat thematic elements (plus it makes drawing on later elements easier with the Reds about)

Perhaps the revolutions could come earlier if Russia was brutally modernising after a steampunk Crimean war and for a need to keep up in the Great Game

>> No.57346849

>French steampunk
I like this one because the technological divergence kinda has an impetus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBGSJ3sbivI

>> No.57346875

>>57346804
I am, but I see no problem with throwing in the steampunk tech and a few sensibilities.

I’m just imaging a lot of old white guys complaining how they’ve lost the empire, meanwhile the economies are doing great since the colonies no longer serve as a drain.
>>57346832
Keep in mind you can just make your own setting and throw out the rule book. It doesn’t have to take place in real-world 1800’s.

>> No.57347030
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57347030

>>57346875
This is true, though I do wonder what the general preferences are vis-a-vis "alt-hist" steampunk and "own world" steampunk.

I tend to prefer the former, because it's a bit less work, there's a lot of history to draw on, and the small limitations it puts in place help too.

I don't like how it'll rile people up over specific things though - matters of realism, or politics

>> No.57347115
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57347115

>>57346849
Why does electro swing always get associated with steampunk? I get that steampunk is more popular than dieselpunk but swing is actually from the same fucking era that dieselpunk is based around, rather than the 19th fucking century of steampunk.

>> No.57347160

>>57347030
I prefer just making my own setting, it gives me more freedom to work with on a matter of issues.


Unless you want to anime it, create a world changing event that lets you redraw the borders how you please.

>> No.57347207

>>57347115
Musical cogfop. A blend of old and new that ends up dumbing down both.

>> No.57347283

>>57347115
Because no matter how much people try to force it, dieselpunk will never actually be a thing.

>> No.57347321

>>57347283
Wolfenstein.

>> No.57347472
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57347472

>>57347283
>dieselpunk will never actually be a thing
I just want it to happen, it's so much cooler than steampunk

>> No.57347526

>>57347472
>it's so much cooler than steampunk
Nope. No cogs you can glue onto fucking anything, no steampowered shit that's actually inferior to things without steampower that actually existed in the era, no wearing top hats and no pretending to be classy and fancy. Because as we all know, in 1880s England (and only 1880s England) everyone was a rich aristocrat and there was neither a disgruntled lower class of extorted workers nor a growing middle class pushing for greater liberalism. Nope, just fatcat nobles tipping their top hats. How delightful.

Cogfop makes me hate steampunk and everything associated with it.

>> No.57347545

How would a steampunk Rapture work?

Also who else has a soft spot for a race if Jules Verne styled species settled on the moon? Ala Bravely Second?

>> No.57347546

>>57347472
Too much overlap with weird WW2 desu.

>> No.57347661
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57347661

>>57347546
Would you not say that's a good thing?

I mean there's the 20's gatsby-flappers-prohibition-gangsters-luxury aspect, and maybe Indiana Jones-on-"tankers' chocolate" pulp shenanigans, but lets be real here, we all love war, war's great for adventure

>> No.57347694

>>57313589
Because Steampunk is gay

>> No.57347731

>>57347661
I don’t know, I think the Indianna Jones interwar period is best. Everyone’s building big things and weapons, but they don’t need to be at a front, and you have very clear very evil very cool looking enemies to fight.

>> No.57347737
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57347737

>>57347661
>1920s gangsters wearing fancy suits and fedoras that don't look cringy and doing the jazz hands thing and calling women "broad" and "toots"

>> No.57347851

>>57347737
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAuLONmIof0

>> No.57347878
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57347878

>>57347737
>Don' worry doll, I've been in worse scrapes than this - you just stick with me an' everythin' will be jake

>> No.57347913

>>57347878
>Give those bozos what for Jackson!

>> No.57348606

>>57345226
At least they're not lolis this time.

>> No.57350526

>>57341607
Not like nips care about western fantasy.

>> No.57350610

>>57345226
>Dwarven men
>Short, stocky, bearded
Weren't they of normal height with equally wide shoulders?

>> No.57350697

>>57318600
100% agree with this.

Also, the posts about how the genre possibly whitewashes 19th century colonialism- I never thought of it that way. Interesting.

>> No.57350765

>>57314055

But I like playing as nobility. I don't want to be a dirty peasant. I mean, I've seen how Communist countries ended up, and colonialism was a really high point for the world's empires. It was a golden age if you weren't a native.

>> No.57350789

>>57333272
Yeah, but then that side dies of yellow fever

>> No.57350815

>>57350765
It’s okay to do that. Just try not to make it so you glorify or erase all the ills of the era. You can, if you want to play as a prick, but that could be fun. You’d be chaotic evil, and nobody would take issue with it.

>> No.57350844

>>57350815

>Just try not to make it so you glorify or erase all the ills of the era.

It's a game. I'm perfectly happy with it being Rule, Brittania forever, while the brave redcoats mow down darkies by the dozen. It's not like native peoples were inherently virtuous, at any rate.

>> No.57350877

>>57326860

Increasingly, I'm kind of liking the idea of playing the guy on top. For instance, the Kerebos Club is a great setting, but it smacks of social justice too much for my liking. You have a feminist Batman, the titular Club of adventurers being extremely egalitarian, and things like the Confederacy basically using dark magic.

I mean, that's swinging to political correctness way too much. It's a shame when a decent setting gets infested by shit like that.

>> No.57350893

>>57350844
Imperialism is still bad mkay. It screws over white people too, as Americans and Irish can attest.

That said, it only really matters with the group your with. Me, i’d prefer something with a bit more nuance than ‘shoot the funny looking guy’.

>> No.57350906

>>57350877
Why’s that an issue? Seems like you stuff you can ignore if it’s not your thing.

>> No.57350964

>>57333933

My GM does, but I consider it part of the local flavor. I always play characters who aren't really here to fix the horribleness of the world, but who are like "Yeah, I'm pretty okay with that."

I always feel that it's very contrarian to have someone with a completely modern perspective on things. If I grew up in a society where slavery was legalized, I'd have no objections to it unless I was a slave myself.

If I'm a knight, OF COURSE I'm going to regard peasants as subhuman! That's what knights do.

>> No.57350985

>>57350906

I could, but I don't like it. It's like how you could include female Space Marines in 40K, but that's really not how the setting works.

It's sort of the stuff they snuck into the new Star Wars trilogy. 'Just ignoring it' isn't an issue, I'd really prefer it not to be there at all.

>> No.57351000

>>57339991
I can see that. In that case you'd have to basically forgo the usual steampunk impossible technology and just go with what actually existed, which is plenty powerful in its own right. You'd also need to explain why the steamers can't or won't use magic. (Maybe something like magic tends to be more powerful but tech is more reliable and widely available.)

>> No.57351061

>>57350893
This is some really persistent tumblr trolling.

>> No.57351107

>>57350964
My knigger. People insisting on viewing historical societies with a modern eye is one of my biggest gripes. There's something to be said for the story of a person rising up from nothing to become a great hero. (Or at least a great murderhobo. Whatever.) But, constantly going on about "muh freedoms and rights" just grates. Especially in medieval societies where people were born into their position by the will of God.

Peasanting may suck, but it's still only right and just that they know their place and that the nobles rule over them, because that's how God wants it.

>> No.57351182

>>57350964
>If I'm a knight, OF COURSE I'm going to regard peasants as subhuman! That's what knights do.
I mean, not really. Considering them inferior isn't the same as considering not human, and it remains possible to treat them with compassion and respect.

>> No.57351242

>>57351182

Sure, but I'm not obliged to. My knight knows he's a higher form of life, and he doesn't really consider peasants to be 'people'.

It's like if you're playing in a Victoria-era game. Your British character is largely going to roll his eyes at the suffurage movement, and he's going to love colonialism.

>> No.57351256

>>57351107
>Peasanting may suck, but it's still only right and just that they know their place and that the nobles rule over them, because that's how God wants it.
Wat Tyler thinks you're a fucking cuckold

>> No.57351278
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57351278

>> No.57351280

>>57351256

Yeah, but it's not like that PC would be on his side. It's more likely that a knightly PC would kill him and suppress the revolt.

>> No.57351294

>>57351242
>Your British character is largely going to roll his eyes at the suffurage movement,
Until his sister/wife/daughter start throwing bricks through windows and harrassing the constablry

>and he's going to love colonialism
Unless he's part of the anti-colonial social groups that existed at the time.

Its never as cut and dry as you make it sound. The seeds of change started in the era, they didn't spontaneously erupt out of no where afterward.

>> No.57351307

>>57351280
Your knightly PC might, my knightly PC might not. You're being simplistic. My knight might be a believer in the teachings of John Ball, for instance.

>> No.57351319

>>57351242
>I'm not obliged to.
Well, you're not obliged to in modern times either.

>It's like if you're playing in a Victoria-era game. Your British character is largely going to roll his eyes at the suffurage movement, and he's going to love colonialism.
There's a lot more historicity there than with your knight perspective, but for both of those issues there were contemporary people whose politics leaned the other way just as there are currently very different opinions out there on gay rights, for example, which are still normal for people to have.

>> No.57351326

>>57351256
You mean the Wat Tyler who got his uppity ass shanked, after which his movement died and things went back pretty much to the way they were? That Wat Tyler?

>> No.57351339

>>57351307
Lollards were a heretical fringe group, though.

>> No.57351364

>>57351294

>Until his sister/wife/daughter start throwing bricks through windows and harrassing the constablry

Yeah, but the answer is going to be "slap a bitch / marry her off to someone who'll teach her some discipline."

>> No.57351375

>>57351107
>Peasanting may suck
This gets exaggerated a lot too. Sure, it was a harder life than we live today, but it wasn't a dead-by-forty no-colors-but-brown mudfarming shitfest that you see in Monty Python.

>> No.57351396

>>57351242
>Your British character is largely going to roll his eyes at the suffurage movement
Until someone points out that raising a child is much more taxing than being a responsible voter, and you presumably trust the women in your life to do that.

>> No.57351403

>>57351375
Oh, I know. That's why I used the word "may". My point wasn't that it was a necessarily bad life, just that even if it was the average peasant wasn't thinking "Time for a revolution.". They were thinking "Deus vult, I guess."

>> No.57351411

>>57351339
A heresy that plenty of English nobles followed.

>>57351326
You mean the uprising that was violently expunged? Yes, so what? You made it sound as if peasants were human cattle that always did as they were told, that's simply not true. Wat Tyler's rebellion was just one of many demonstrations peasants made to protest their conditions. If we look at France we're looking at the Jacquerie, a full blown uprising that attacked and murdered whatever nobles they could get their hands on, so notable the French nobility had to essentially purge the countryside to keep the peasants in line. Read a book or two.

>>57351364
Again with the simplistic view of things. Believe it or not, our ancestors weren't cold blooded sociopaths the way you seem to think. You're disregarding all human feeling your PC might have for the women in their lives.

>> No.57351450

>>57351403
There's a big gulf between 'I'm being abused by my land lord and being unfairly taxed' and 'let's kill all the nobles'. Peasants didn't just take any old abuse, they did protest and fight for their rights within the law. It was only when the law turned its back on the peasantry as a whole that uprisings broke out.

You're perpetuating a simplistic narrative that peasants were just sheep to be herded on the nobility's land.

>> No.57351479

>>57351411

> Again with the simplistic view of things. Believe it or not, our ancestors weren't cold blooded sociopaths the way you seem to think. You're disregarding all human feeling your PC might have for the women in their lives.

What's remotely sociopathic about that? If you're a concerned parent, you don't want your daughter getting mixed up with hooligans on that stripe. You want your daughter (or sister) to marry someone advantageous, because that's how you set her up for life.

This is the equivalent of your son *really getting into* anarchism, and wanting to run off to live on a commune. Obviously, you'll slap that shit out of his hands and tell him not to be a stupid boy. (Or getting involved in student protests. You could get killed or arrested!)

Is "I don't want my (family member) to ruin her life or bring shame to my family" so alien to you?

>> No.57351491

Serious question: what is the history of serfdom in europe?
My inferior education only tells me that in England serfdom was never explicitely a thing, but there was rent - and there was a curious incident of driving people from land to have sheep instead, then passing a law that forbade to be homeless and poor and hanging/exiling all those people driven off the land they could find.

But what about german serfdom? French one? Italian? Was that even a thing in italy? After all, important parts of italy were famous for manufacture and trade, and nobility's power was broken - so ther was no reason to have serfdom...

>> No.57351497

>>57351396
At which point they say "Sure, but it not something that requires a lot of thought like voting does. It's instinctive. In fact, that's why we don't give women the vote, because they rely too much on their womanly instincts and emotions to be trusted to make serious decisions."

>>57351411
>You made it sound as if peasants were human cattle that always did as they were told, that's simply not true.
I'm generalizing, but the point still holds true. For the most part people were accepting of their lot in life. Even in those revolts you speak of the aim was never to rise up in station, it was just to stop the oppression and cruelty they were suffering from. It wasn't until the beginnings of the Renaissance and the rise of the middle class that we really saw people start to imagine that social mobility might be possible.

>>57351450
I didn't say that there wasn't. My point was only about mobility, not about reaction to abuse. You said that, not me. Even an animal will fight back if pushed to hard. At the end of the day, though, when the furor had died down and the problem resolved, they still went back to their lives instead of trying to put themselves in charge of things in place of the nobles.

>> No.57351532

>>57351479
And if she refuses to get married out of principle for her beliefs, what do you do?

You are treating these theoretical relatives as assets that will follow your will because its your will and put aside their own feelings. You aren't viewing them as people with independent will power and an ability to defy you, and that's sociopathic. The fact your response to a theoretical spouse taking an interest in politics is to smack the crap out of her to keep her in line is not just cold and alien, its a damn good sight likely to ruin your reputation and bring your in-laws into your affairs. Believe it or not, flagrant spousal abuse has never been socially acceptable.

You seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking the cartoon version of the Victorian era, where women could be beaten and sold off without consent, as the historical truth.

>> No.57351558

>>57351497
>Even in those revolts you speak of the aim was never to rise up in station
I never said that was their aim of their protest, only to improve their conditions and to protest unfair treatment by their 'betters'. And they did, consistently throughout English history. Wat Tyler's rebellion was one of the more dramatic moments, but smaller scale protests and petitions were fairly common.

>> No.57351573

>>57351497
>At which point they say "Sure, but it not something that requires a lot of thought like voting does. It's instinctive. In fact, that's why we don't give women the vote, because they rely too much on their womanly instincts and emotions to be trusted to make serious decisions."
And that's why women's suffrage failed and they never got the vote.

>> No.57351599

>>57351491
I'm no expert, but as far as I know there was no place in Europe that didn't have serfdom at one point or another, sometimes until late in it's history. Serfdom is a state of bondage to a piece of land and the lord that owns it, that's all. You can have it under just about any system that has nobles owning land. It might go by different names depending on the region, but it's still serfdom. And, yes, Italy had it, too. Most of the farmers working the fields weren't freemen.

>> No.57351667

>>57351573
Not in the Victorian Era, no. It took WWI for the UK to get around to giving women voting rights.

>> No.57351683

>>57351667
Psst, here's a tip, that was only a couple decades after the Victoria era.

We're talking about extremely close periods of time here, not literally hundreds of years.

>> No.57351710

>>57351573
I was only pointing prevailing attitudes of the time. And, yes, suffrage eventually succeeded, but it also took a very long time to be fully realized. In the beginning it was only granted under very limited circumstances and in limited places, sort of a test bed to see if the idea could even work in the long run. In truth I think it only even gained a foothold anywhere because the suffragettes were becoming, if you'll pardon the phrasing, insufferable. The goal was as much to pacify them as to provide any legal rights. (At least that's how it seems to me from the admittedly basic reading I've done on the subject over the years. I'm willing to be corrected.)

>> No.57351756

>>57351683
>that was only a couple decades after the Victoria era.
Much like how the 70s was only a couple decades after the 50s? Society can change fairly fast, especially when you're just coming down from a very large war?

>> No.57351835

>>57351710
Considering the idea of universal suffrage of men and women was a common left platform put forward by left-leaning groups you'd be surprised. You're doing the thing steam punk fans do and getting too narrowly focused on a breed of aristocrat rather than taking in the entire society.

>>57351756
Don't think the 50s was a simple era of picket fences and nuclear families. The movements of the 60s and 70s, again, didn't erupt out of nothing, and the early hippie movement got its start in the counter-culture movements of the 50s, particularly in greaser and biker culture, many of it springing from disaffected WW2 and Korean War veterans, as well as the beat generation. Look past the pastel ads and magazines and you get a wider view of things. MLK and a lot of other activists started their work in the 50s.

You guys are trying to neatly segregate chunks of history but really, that's not how history works, particularly the closer and closer you get to the 20th century.

>> No.57352052

>>57351835
>You're doing the thing steam punk fans do and getting too narrowly focused on a breed of aristocrat rather than taking in the entire society.
Actually, I think just the opposite. It's the nobles that were the most likely to treat their women with a bit of compassion and respect. If you read up on women in Victorian society opinion of them was pretty damned mean. For instance, it was commonly held that smacking your woman around once in a while would make her love you all the more, and was perfectly legal. The nobles tended to think that sort of behavior was low class, though. It still happened amongst them, of course, but not nearly as often. I remembering reading an autobiographical piece by a nobleman of the time some years ago that was railing against the "new woman", and I got the distinct impression that his complaint was based less on any disparagement of women than on not understanding just how bad the plight of women could be. All he ever saw were generally pampered and coddled noblewomen who, it was true, led restricted lives, but so did the men. He didn't like the suffragette movement because, from his limited perspective, the women were complaining about very minor things in a very vocal way.

Meanwhile, Peasantgirl616 was being forced to marry and legally give up all rights to her own body, and was grateful for the money her husband spent on whores because it meant he was slightly less likely to force himself on her.

>> No.57352093

>>57352052
Again, before anyone jumps my shit, I'm generalizing here. Obviously there are going to be examples of opposite attitudes. Nothing is universal.

>> No.57352362

>>57351491
'Serfdom' is sort of a generalization which covers a wide variety of practices across Europe.
If I remember correctly the main quality of serfdom was that you had an enduring legal relationship with the land that you worked. You would owe your lord various things (not just money but also things such as a portion of what you produced or so many hour of labor every year). But at the same time you had a fair amount of security. The local lord couldn't take away your land or easily revise what you owed them - or at least not without quiet a lot of pushback.
This would contrast with non-serfs who would basically rent the land in a manner not totally dissimilar to land renting today. They would generally pay the local lord with actual money, and the lord would could raise rents as much as they thought people could bear to pay. If people no longer wanted to pay they could usually just pack up and move.
This played out quiet differently in different places. For example in England by the late medieval era their version of 'serfdom' had significantly diminished in importance due to a combination of serfs successfully pushing for better treatment + lords deciding that they preferred people to just pay them. The net effect of this being that serfs were a smaller ratio of the population than many other places and there was less difference between serfs and non-serfs in many places.

>> No.57352487

>>57352362
Were ther some distinct marks of the process?
In history of Russian serfdom, which i am most familiar with, there are some distinct points thatmark its changes, usually goverment regulatory acts...

>> No.57352524

>>57342419
>It glorifies the achievements of one race while ignoring the other.
Perhaps there were no achievements on the other side huh

>> No.57352624

>>57333739
>hurr durr industrialisation was evil
>the fact that the best all workers had before was starving is irrelevant

>> No.57352627

>>57352487
I'm sure there were but I don't really know enough of the details about its development in any one country to tell you for sure.
The biggest distinct mark in the process which applies to all of Western Europe was the Black Death, Which most historians point to as the point when serfdom began its very slow decline as the dominant way of organizing agrarian labor east of the Elbe.

>> No.57352963
File: 197 KB, 745x933, osprey.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57352963

Steampunk Soldiers from Osprey had some good ideas about extra european powers (China, Russia and Japan)

>> No.57354671
File: 240 KB, 1006x617, Colonial soldiers 1900 Britain, United States, Australia, British India, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Japan (Russia not pictured).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57354671

>>57352963
Seems pretty neat, though a bit cliche

>> No.57354696
File: 231 KB, 1006x617, 1515595899174.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57354696

>>57354671
Interesting picture

>> No.57354720

>>57354696
Generally I'm not a fan of those, but kek.

>> No.57356802

>>57351497
>It wasn't until the beginnings of the Renaissance
t. Renaissance people

>> No.57356817

>>57351756
>the fifties were exactly as seen on Leave It To Beaver!

>> No.57356884

>>57352052
>it was commonly held that smacking your woman around once in a while would make her love you all the more
Based on my recreational perusal of tumblr for pornographic purposes, I think they were probably right.

>>57352093
Even for a generalization, your portrayal is way too extreme to correspond to any particular reality. The Victorian period in particular was a rough one as industrialization marginalized women in the peasant household, but that doesn't mean all women are suddenly cucqueans out of practical necessity.

>> No.57356916

>>57352524
I didn't say ignoring the achievements of the other, I said ignoring the other. And even minor achievements are still achievements. The Maori, for example, achieved diplomatic successes which were amazing given their relative position and what happened to other groups in similar positions.

>> No.57357675

The only Steampunk setting that I've really enjoyed was that old Devil's Dixie setting that was born on /tg/ way way back. It sounded gritty and ugly and industrial and I loved it. I don't know who made it or if they still care about it, but I'd love to read or write something in that setting.

>> No.57360656

>>57354696
How much of that is hats?

>> No.57360946

>>57314091
>steampunk
>oil baron
>steam
>oil
It's called dieselpunk. It has zeppelins, too.

>> No.57360994

>>57313830
>/tg/ falling for such obvious bait
Pretty much if anyone just whips out the race card in /tg/, of all places, you can bet it’s just to get >(You)s.

>> No.57361029

>>57316965
This logic leads quite rapidly down the road of liberal "everything is politics" horseshit.

Could it be I don't want my tabletop game set in a fantasy world to be a screed about how historical racism was wrong and that colonialism destroyed many native ways of life which were not always so great anyway because I hear that all the fucking time in every movie, book, news broadcast, and TV show I come across?

No, choosing not to cover an issue in a fantasy game of pretend is fucking not fucking pretending it didn't fucking happen in real life. Christ. Not fucking everything has to be a fucking "important" political screed against whatever -ism seems most applicable.

>> No.57361397

>>57333195
Tesla keeps coming up mostly because he's pretty much THE archetypal mad scientist. Honestly, the guy as a person was pretty fucking cool and it pisses me off the "i fucking love science" types habe hijacked his image and associated themselves with him, when they should stick to people more they're speed like black science man and bill nye the sex junk guy.

>> No.57361486

>>57333933
>When's the last time you explore the grinding life and constant fear of rapine and pillaging of a not!medieval peasant in your fantasy game?
Please, the grimdark "realistic" medieval fantasy nowadays is more common than playing the traditional sword and sorcery shit straight.

And the "peasant sets out on a path of revenge because a passing army/tyrant/dickass wizard/necromancer/whatever destroyed their hometown" is so common a trope it's right up there with "you all meet in a tavern."

>> No.57361634

>>57342298
>capital far more concentrated than at any time in previous history
Our society ain't got SHIT on some empires of old. Fortune 500 companies will never come near the power of, say, the British East India Trading Company.

>> No.57361854

>>57351835
>particularly the closer and closer you get to the 20th century.
No, history has always been that way, it's just that the closer it is to our cultural memory, the more we understand it. We can't understand, say, Roman culture from decade to decade, because of limited sources, remoteness of sources, and being a much further time away.

In a sense, we can make more details out between, say, the 1960s and the 1970s, than we can between the 160s and the 170s. You can think of it as being a resolution, like in a photograph. We can see more recent history in a higher resolution than more distant history. In general, the amount of historical detail passed down increases due to important changes in technology or in social advancements - higher literacy rates mean more people keeping journals, diaries, publishing books, etc - printing press, radio, media recording, photography, motion pictures, digital media and so on all mean more accurate information can be preserved in more accessible or useful formats, that kind of thing.

I maintain that any arbitrary two decades in any period of history would be, to their own inhabitants, as distinctive to them as any arbitrary two late-20th-century decades are to us.

>> No.57361883

>>57352093
>Again, before anyone jumps my shit, I'm generalizing here. Obviously there are going to be examples of opposite attitudes. Nothing is universal.
I kinda hate there are so many autists around here that you have to specify obvious disclaimers like this one.

>> No.57362820

Here’s a question, and I say this as a history major- does anyone think a purely historical version of the 1800’s would be more interesting to play?

I also pose this to the manbabies who can’t concieve of women in historical settings doing nothing but being housesitters. Isn’t that really boring? Like wouldn’t you want diversity in your setting, just so you questgiver isn’t the fifteenth old white nobleman with a mustache?

I’d like to see a variety of different people in a setting so that my setting is more than just what old white men are doing in my world. Or at least racial, or gender disparity could make good conflicts to spice up the setting at least to show there are dissenting opinions out there.

Additionally given steampunk is about playing with tech and culture, why not make a setting where say the women’s rights movement is ongoing or already happened?

>> No.57362910

>>57362820

But if that were the case then they would have no way to complain about the fact that there are women who aren't dressed like sluts in their game.

>> No.57362966

>>57361883

Why do people care about their image on an anonymous message board?

If an asshole misinterprets what you are saying and starts shit you can ignore them freely without them tracking you down and harassing you or even releasing your private information.

>> No.57362992

>>57352963

That looks super fucking retarded. Like not even rule of cool. Is there supposed to be a steam engine or some bullshit in the back that makes it move?

>> No.57363015

>>57362966
>If an asshole misinterprets what you are saying and starts shit you can ignore them freely
Then they just continue missing what you mean, usually disingenuously, other retards or people who come in later in the thread think that's what you actually meant when you don't correct them.

>> No.57363027

>>57362910
That’s the other thing- that whole ‘hurr durr women stay in the kitchen’ mentality makes me think these people aren’t the most heterosexual individuals.

Look at the dudes on the amazon threads desperately trying to convince people that you shouldn’t include for gorgeous half-covered warrior women in your campaign.

Me, I like the idea of having a bevy of female companions on a personal zeppelin as we traverse the empire righting wrongs for the crown.

>> No.57363127

>>57363015

So?

Either learn to be efficient and accurate with your language or stop being a sensitive snowflake who gets their fee fees hurt when people say mean words online.

>> No.57363156

>>57363027

I have problems with the amazon threads and the idea of an entire culture of gorgeous women but I agree with the overall sentiment of your post.

>> No.57363209

>>57363127
Precision and efficiency, when confronted by a pedantic nitpicker, are opposed. A couple sentences can warrant paragraphs of disclaimers, definitions, acknowledgements of obscure exceptions, and shit like that.

>> No.57363251

>>57363209
Kid, if you don't like the first option then do the second option.

There is no conversation to be had here.

>> No.57363364

>>57363251
>Kid
how_to_win_an_argument_on_b.png

It's not about feelings being hurt, it's about not wanting some disingenuous retard to hijack a conversation by willfully misreading what you're saying.

>> No.57363478

>>57363364

So it hurts your fee fees when one person misinterprets what you wrote on an anonymous message board.

You are a child.

You are a kid.

>> No.57363539
File: 27 KB, 625x626, 1388076476741.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57363539

>>57363478

>> No.57364076
File: 404 KB, 550x600, necrons_ooooo.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57364076

>>57363539

It's not baiting when its the truth.

>> No.57364288

>>57350893
>> Imperialism
>> Bad

Oh dont mind this imperialism, just creating a more interconnected world, showing billions the light of god, creating a wealth surplus allowing the middle class to come up with the moral ideas that will one day cause the downfall of imperialism, innovating at rates never before seen, modernizing the primitive cultures, and civilizing the whole world over finally dragging the earth out of the primitive feudal bullshit it had lived though its entire existence previously.

The civilizing mission was corrupted by racism, greed and shortsightedness, but the white mans burden was real, and the whole world over is better of for it.

>> No.57364365

>>57364288
Except, you know, all the people who were Genocided and liked worshipping their own religion.

Christianity is such a trash-tier church anyway.

>> No.57364415

>>57364365
Can't make an omelette without breaking a few skulls.

>> No.57364506

>>57364365
Religion is not something to be argued over, all sides know they are rights. It is something to be fought over.

As for genocide, that has nothing to do with my post, its all moral outrage over a few tribes who had already committed themselves to the colonials destruction.

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves.

>> No.57364590

>>57364415

>having people be interconnected is worth millions dead

>> No.57364614

>>57364365
Yes, genocides and plagues happened, but you know what else happened? Modern agriculture, western medicine, stopping truly barbaric native practices across the world from pederasty to human sacrifice...

>> No.57364630

>>57364288
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g

>> No.57364663

>>57364614
>>57364630

>> No.57364716

>>57364590
>shitposting about this subject
>on the internet

>> No.57364722

>>57364590
Millions will die anyway. Death is a part of the human condition. You will never meet a person that doesn't die at some point.

>> No.57364741

>>57364590
Millions more didn't die of starvation because civilization introduced wide-scale agriculture.

>> No.57364853

>>57313589

Natives in steampunk settings tend to also be magic or monsters.

>> No.57364884

>>57364741
Millions more still died of starvation because the growth of cash crops was encouraged at the expense of local food.

>> No.57365364

>>57364506
Or you can just realize it’s all fake bs, and stop caring.

Also, no, there was clearly some targeted genocide of native peoples across the Americas, Australia, and Africa (let’s not forget the triangle trade either).

Not to say theoretically that stuff couldn’t have been avoided, but to downplay or ignore the fact those were major factors of colonialism is literal whitewashing. >>57364614
Don’t get me wrong. The Aztecs were nutso. But I don’t think colonialism is the primary factor of modern society. You likely could have gotten the same or most of the same benefits by just exploring and trading, rather than conquering everyone you can across.

Also i’ll Say the initial outbreaks of smallpox were honest mistakes, as nobody could have known that would happen (subsequent outbreaks not so much).
>>57364722
Which is why you should kill yourself. You’re going to die anyway, and it’s not like you’ll do anything that matters.

>> No.57365366
File: 26 KB, 788x600, HumanPopGrowth.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
57365366

>>57364884
Yeah, look at all these deaths.

>> No.57365528

>>57314092
Better, give the natives tame dinosaurs

>> No.57365560

>>57364716

>the internet is worth millions dead

>> No.57365566

>>57365364
>triangle trade
>genocide
Considering the only specific event you mentioned is obviously not genocide, what store are we to put in you assertions that genocide was rampant that you don't even bother to justify?

>literal whitewashing
Virtue signalling is not an argument.

>You likely could have gotten the same or most of the same benefits by just exploring and trading, rather than conquering everyone you can across.
Both approaches were used. In fact, in China they were both used in the same place... And the conquered bits (Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau) ended up a lot better off than pretty much anywhere else for ages. People who aren't conquered at all, but left to do their own thing and given access to a market, such as the people in the Amazon interior or Mongolian nomads, remain pretty much just poor, while countries like New Zealand and Peru, the latter subject to outright conquest and the other to conquest in everything but name, are among the greatest in their continental regions for people of indigenous heritage just as much as for those without it.

The fact is, the native people didn't have the capital or ability that the colonizers had to develop improved infrastructure, and so no amount of trade and communication would have been enough to make it happen even a tenth as quickly without the white people coming in and forming their own enclaves in positions of influence - you know, those things we call colonies.

>> No.57365580

>>57364722

>people die naturally so it's okay to murder them

>> No.57365583

>>57365560
If it's not, why don't you stop shitposting on it and go work to save some lives?

>> No.57365603

>>57364853

It'd be interesting to see a steampunk setting where literally everyone independently developed steam technology.

>> No.57365618

>>57365583
What is the death of fifty thousand warriors to save the lives of a million starving children?

>> No.57365632

>>57365366

It's sad to think that for all the additional lives we create, we allow so many to die for no good reason.

>> No.57365649

>>57365583

>h-he must not be working to save some lives!

>> No.57365689

>>57365649
What is your shitposting doing to save anyone's life?

>> No.57365704

>>57365632
It's sad to think that we create so many extra lives to begin with. Too many people is fucking up the earth in ways far more long-lasting than a few billion people.

>> No.57365746

>>57365689

>you aren't saving lives 24/7, you hypocrite!

>> No.57365760

>>57365704

The additional people isn't the problem. It's our lack of funding space colonization that is the problem.

>> No.57365812

>>57365760
Good point, we just need to go out and take advantage of all the fertile soil and great climates to be found in space.

>> No.57365823

>>57365760
Agreed. We put a self sustaining colony out there, the species will be set for eternity.

>> No.57365868

>>57365812

>terraforming is literally impossible
>enclosed ecosystems are literally impossible

>> No.57365930

>>57365868
Pretty damn close in any reasonable timeframe without exorbitant investment of earth resources that makes the whole thing pointless.

>> No.57366057

>>57365930

Awesome so you admit it's possible. Was that so hard?

>> No.57366061

>>57365930
Who says it needs to be now? It can be off in the future. The thing is the sooner we start, the sooner it’ll finish.

>> No.57366223

>>57347283
Imagine being so Anglo-saxon that Franco-Belgian comics are absolutely alien to you and thus their main stylistics - aka what kiddies associate with "dieselpunk", along with actual punk plots - are considered impossible and not a thing.

>> No.57366241

>>57330067
>The power of American "education"

>> No.57368700

>>57313589
goddamn it. This makes me think of Clockwork Empires and it makes me sad as fuck.

>> No.57368718

>>57366241
pretty sure it's true though in many respects... the american civil war was also the place that the undertaking profession was invented and then was adopted elsewhere because corpses got so very much fucked up in wars that came after the american civil war. Feel free to show an earlier war that had so much destructive ordinance being thrown around before hand though.

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