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55192110 No.55192110 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

How do you make a good female villain?
I freely admit that most of my npcs and ALL villains are male, mostly because I cant do a female voice, and I think it is about time I branch out.
So how do you craft a believable, memorable and threatening female villain?

>> No.55192156

Model a queendom on S.C.U.M. manifesto.

>> No.55192208

that sounds like a bad idea

>> No.55192254

Make her the same way you make your male villains. But she just happens to be a woman.

>> No.55192298

Just go over the top and make one of those crazy anime femdom sluts who licks blood off poisoned serrated knives and murmurs sweet words to severed heads or whatever the fuck. There's no reason to really hold back, because being restrained creates bland and forgettable characters or campaigns.

>> No.55192343

>So how do you craft a believable, memorable and threatening female villain?
Depends on what sort of a villain you want to have. You could look at history for inspiration. I'd particularly recommend Zenobia.

>> No.55192464

Some ideas from history:

>> No.55192509

*tips fedora*
Whether you like it or not men are different from women and some types of villains just wouldn't work as well with one or another.

>> No.55192573

I had a female lasher in my pokemon campaign who if I was into femdom she would of been full magical Reem.
She was always a few levels above the party and raised quickly through the ranks of team rocket .
She was a fun bad guy who used alot of dirty tactics and was the cruelist I ever made. She would fuck your day up.
>her underlings would spam supersonic
>she would use powerful drugs to boost damage but shorten the life of her monsters
>she would burn people with her cigarette
>she would posion party pokemon then make sure the center power was broken.
>She would push drugs on people then use them as her pawns

>> No.55192589

Hey, it worked for Ripley when making a hero. I wouldn't knock it as a method for a villain.

>> No.55193943

>So how do you craft a believable, memorable and threatening female villain?
The same way you make a good character in general; you give them a clear motivation, an understandable goal, and interesting means.
what do they want, in a general big picture kind of way? try and pick something that you and your players can understand wanting but not necessarily agree with (i.e. wanting to murder someone who fucked you over, an immoral desire, but an understandable urge).
why they have the goal they do? since you've built your goal on something universally understood it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why this character wants that thing.

Specifically for female characters think about their upbringing and the culture they're from, what would they be encouraged to want, what might they want due to being denied it?
this is how your villain accomplishes their goals and also what holds them back from them. their skills, strengths, flaws, resources, allies & rivals. There should be a healthy mix of positive and negative in there, leaning enough positive that they'd succeed without the PCs' actions but they're not the only concern they have.

If you want to highlight your villain's gender, think about how their background in their specific culture would have influenced their abilities. Think about how they might be perceived by others due to being female and how that affects their ability to achieve their goals through various means in both positive and negative ways.

>> No.55194259

>Anita Sarkeesian

Sorry buddy, this is for TABLETOP games. You're looking for /v/ and/or /pol/

>> No.55194386
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>> No.55194539

>Pokemon campaign
please explain

>> No.55194646

>How do you make a good female villain?
Courtier/concubine of the emperor. Most women who people tend to consider villains aren't war leaders or conquerors they are women who were given power (via marrying the right man or having the right son) and then manipulated themselves to higher positions while being ruthless and evil. One specific example I remember is a concubine of the Chinese emperor who got into a power struggle with another concubine and ended up winning. Afterwards she had her rival's son poisoned and had the concubine's arms and legs cut off and forced her to live like a pig.

>> No.55194676

For the voice finding issue, you don't have to change pitch unless you sound like Louis Armstrong. Pay attention to the way women speak - they have different emphasis and rhythm to men.

Draw out vowels for a sexy voice. Talk faster for an excitable nerd girl voice.

Don't underestimate the power of body language, either.

If all else fails, just repeatedly state that the character is female.

>> No.55194765

Make her motives, no matter how much they hurt everyone else, genuinely in the best interest of her immediate family, especially her children.

Tamora from Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus is a good place to start with this type of female villain.

>> No.55194800

You don't. Only a weakling would ever be afraid of a woman.

>> No.55194818

That's more likely to make people horny than afraid though

>> No.55195411

random idea: girl given as a sacrifice/bride to a dragon, managed to trick(charm?) him to have him under her thumb.
Now a powerful (and rich) witch, looking for forbidden rituals to get even more power and immortality/eternal youth

maybe listen to/read stories about crazy bitches? that can always help.

>> No.55195475

Big tits

>> No.55195492
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Capture the extraordinary cruelty that a female with some mental pathology is capable of. I'll give you a famous one. Emperess Lu Zhi and her brutal murder of Consort Qi and her son, Liu Ruyi.

>"Emperor Xiaohui (Liu Ying, Emperor Hui of Han) kept King of Zhao (Liu Ruyi,King Yin of Zhao) by his side in the palace and checked for poison in any aliment delivered to him. Emperor Xiaohui also brought Liu Ruyi with him wherever he went. In one early morning in the twelfth month of the first year of Emperor Xiaohui, the emperor went on a hunting trip; this time King of Zhao was left alone because he could not wake up early. Emperor Xiaohui supposed his mother would not plot against King of Zhao as several months had passed without any occurrence. Nevertheless Empress Dowager had an assassin force venom down King of Zhao's throat....She then had Concubine Qi's limbs chopped off, blinded her by gouging out her eyes, cut off her tongue and locked her in the pigsty, and called her a "Human Swine" (人彘). Several days after, Emperor Xiaohui saw the "Human Swine", and after realising that it who the "Human Swine" was, the emperor was so sick of his mother's cruelty that he virtually relinquished his authority and indulged in carnal pleasures."

>> No.55196022

what are the relevant differences between a man and a woman that would make them not able to be certain types of villains?
If it's about muscles just make her a fantasy race known for being super strong like ogres, orcs or whatever.

>> No.55196046
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lizzie-chan did nothing wrong!

>> No.55196080

>limbs chopped off, blinded her by gouging out her eyes, cut off her tongue and locked her in the pigsty

so this is where asanagi takes his ideas from

>> No.55196708
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Think of a male villain and I take away reason and accountability.

>> No.55197124

usually (it heavily depends on the culture, but) women and men will do evil differently
one of the most basic examples would be that most male villains will do dirty work themselves (for fun) and women won't dirty themselves (and just watch as one of their goons do the job)
but yeah, nothing stops you from making an half-orc musclegirl tomboy that just bashes skulls for the skull throne

>> No.55197155

What the shit are you doing on teej, Anita?

>> No.55197175

Did nothing wrong. In fact, she's quite literally a saint in our religion.

>> No.55197231

If you can't do a female voice just discribe what she says and hope the players can imagine in the blanks.

>> No.55197553

She's still antagonist material. Antagonists don't need to be Joker-tier randumb evil or regular wrong doers, they just need to have an objective opposite to the party's.

>> No.55197568


>> No.55197592

Just get a full on, cackling, broom-flying, cauldron-stirring witch in your villain squad.

>> No.55197632

Tons of male villains prefer not to get their hands dirty and watch their henchmen do things for them, though. I don't really think the gender of the villain has to limit or influence the rest of the character's design.

>> No.55197663


The BBEG being above doing dirty work and making their minions do it instead until the end when the party shows up to confront them is literally one of the most common cliche's in fiction. You are actually retarded or only read comics (i.e. retarded) or something if you think it's a female stereotype. See fucking Sauron minus actually actually fighting anyone.

>> No.55197886
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>Make her the same way you make your male villains. But she just happens to be a woman.
This meme-tier answer still gets repeated? I sure hope it's bait. You do not make a good female villain by doing this, you make a bland piece of garbage. If you can just swap the character's sex and nothing changes then you've made a bad character. Men and women are different. These differences are integral to their characters, personalities, and outlooks. You make a good female character by making something like Buffy, not something like Rey.

>> No.55197913

>not something like Rey.
The trick is to make good characters, man. Not everything has to be tied to the genitals.

>> No.55197945

>Being this retarded
You're drinking too much tumblr koolaid Anon. You make an interesting character by making an interesting character, if the character is defined by being a man, woman, apache helicopter, gay transgendered black muslim or whatever the fuck else they're shit. Rey is shit because she's a bland as fuck copy paste of Luke. Had the protag of 7 been a dude named Duke Cloudwalker who was just Not-Luke™ he would have been just as shit.

>> No.55198462

They could make Rey a little less boring by revealing that her competence is based on some kind of object reading and showing that she can't do shit with a new lightsaber while she can do crazy shit with an older one.

But they won't do that. She'll just be Fem-Luke forever.

>> No.55198484

Man, she really WAS a great villain, wasn't she?
And somehow they really cocked up the second series with that tumblrshit.

>> No.55198496

But male Rey would still be fucking insufferable.

>> No.55198523

That would actually be a pretty good explanation and twist.
Having it be one of those rare force talents like Battle Meditation. I'd be down with that.

Also, to be fair, she wasn't THAT competent. She was fighting a dude who took a space crossbow laser to the gut, and who just fought a trained melee soldier and kicked his ass... and THEN he was still beating Rey. Her "win" was briefly matching him before they were split apart by a whim of fate.
So y'know...

>> No.55198532

Do you really have to make a female voice though? I just make a normal voice in case of voicing a female character, I do change my voice in some case but it's more for humorous situation (The ambassador of the US have a cliché texan accent, the raiders the pc interogate is a 14 years old kid with an uneven voice)

>> No.55198564
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>The atrocities described most consistently included severe beatings, burning or mutilation of hands, biting the flesh off the faces, arms and other body parts, freezing or starving to death.
>Báthory's initial victims were the adolescent daughters of local peasants
>According to the Budapest City Archives, the girls were scalded with hot tongs and then placed in freezing cold water.[23] They were also covered in honey and live ants.[23] Elizabeth is also suspected of cannibalism.[23]
>Nothing wrong

>> No.55198600

I mean, she touched the millenium falcon's controls and instantly became a skilled pilot, touched the old-ass lightsaber and instantly became a competent jedi, etc. It'd make sense.

And it'd give her a skill to actually learn instead of just being able to do whatever.

>> No.55198647

Well it'd be a cool twist, and could give her a legitimate plot reason for getting her skills up to matching end-of-the-OT Luke in a fraction of the time, which leads to a cool option--having her and Luke work together to battle Ren and Snookers in a 2v2 showdown.
Sounds cool.

>> No.55198735

And it'd give the character some reason to think about her beliefs, and it'd give her plot hooks and room to grow.

Would she be big about respecting her elders and those who came before, since they're the source of her power?

Would she do some shit where she tried to seek out the possessions of famous people to gain their skills, and end up looking like the average PC?

Would she lean entirely on her power, causing a dramatic moment where she loses her legendary item and is rendered helpless? Or would she predict this situation and train her own skills along with her talent?

>> No.55198777

If Buffy had been a man, she'd still be a great character.

If Rey had been a man, she'd still be lame as balls.

>> No.55198793

The main problem some people have with making female characters is that they forego details that they would have included when making male characters.

>> No.55198837


Any man who acts like Buffy does would be insufferable to the general population.

>> No.55198946

To be fair, I think people are downplaying what a kickass ship the Falcon is too. You can be a barely competent driver but if you get behind the wheel of the fucking batmobile you'll probably outrun the pair of dimestore cops that are chasing you.

>> No.55199249
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A game where you play pokemon trainers.It was fun. Though my game was more like the comic then the game or the show.

Players would be going around the world collecting badges, the more you collect the higher you would seed in the torment. They would earn cash by battling in official Pokemon league battle grounds. The fights where recorded and put on a few 24-hour t.v channels with more well known trainers getting better slots

>> No.55199261

I'm actually fine with her piloting Falcon. I'm not fine with her beating up Kylo Ren without any lightsaber training whatsoever. When Luke first met HIS archnemesis, he got his ass kicked, and his hand was cut off, and he was training for the whole second movie.

>> No.55199310

>still "doing voices"
>not playing online like normal people

>> No.55199328

All non-spergs play voiced games, anon.
Text games are always a glacially-paced nightmare.

>> No.55199332
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But this Erzebet is a 14 year old version who hasn't done that yet and just wants to become the #1 idol in the world!

>> No.55199399

>Text games are always a glacially-paced nightmare.
>admitting you can't read fast
>admitting you can't write fast
Is this your first day on a computer?

>> No.55199414


Text chat Rping is fine, but I would do it 1on1 not with a group and GM.
Same with PbP

>> No.55199415

He's right, though. Text games ARE very slow compared to voice-based ones, especially if the group insists on writing each action in flowery prose - which they often do.

>> No.55199437

>Text games ARE very slow compared to voice-based ones
They're not.
>especially if the group insists on writing each action in flowery prose - which they often do.
Cool anecdote. I bet it's made up too.

>> No.55199447


>> No.55199461

Do you have a single fact to back that up?

>> No.55199463

Text games are generally slower. It's harder to convey stuff like body language / tone of voice, too. A lot of things get less impulsive because as people write out stuff they get second thoughts. It's easier to make mistakes which cause confusion.

>> No.55199488

But it's not. What the fuck even makes you say that? Is it your own ineptitude?

>> No.55199503

Don't reply to the obvious troll, you idiot.

>> No.55199525

It is.
Check out the average speed differences between typing and dictating.
Check out the average speed differences between somebody comfortably reading and listening.
In most cases, this goes to the favour of the speaker / listerner. Even amongst authors / 'skilled readers'.

>Harder to convey body language and tone of voice
Instead of using body language and tone of voice as you speak, you have describe it with words, in addition to whatever you're saying.

>less impulsive
This is based on my own experience. As people write, they have time to change their response. This may not be as common as I think it is, so I am willing to concede this point to you.

If you make a mistake while speaking, it is easier to detect / people can correct you faster. If you do it while typing, it can first be corrected when you are done writing. Which may cause confusion.

>> No.55199531

But I'm enjoying myself.

>> No.55199576

>Check out the average speed differences between typing and dictating.
>Check out the average speed differences between somebody comfortably reading and listening.
I checked it out and found nothing to support your claims. Post some links.

>> No.55199583

>she's quite literally a saint in our religion
Isn't every Czar an Orthodox saint by default?

>> No.55199602

>When Luke first met HIS archnemesis, he got his ass kicked, and his hand was cut off, and he was training for the whole second movie.
I take your point, but I'd also suggest that Luke's arch-nemesis was a lot more formidable.

>> No.55199618

Luke was training, left early, and got fucked up.
Rey was sitting at home, picked up a lightsaber, and won.

>> No.55199627


Wherein they test text-to-speech devices on androids. Note that people who use text-to-speech devices usually speak a little bit slower than they normally do.


Wherein they cite wikipedia, which in turn has some sources that compare speaking and typing, as well as listening and reading.


Wherein they include several sources and reach the same conclusion. However, it does say that the fastest writers can outpace the average speakers. And unlike speaking, faster writing shouldn't be any less comprehensible.

>> No.55199646
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Oh, didn't you know? She's taking shots at 40k now.

>> No.55199656

Don't you this it's part of the problem?

>> No.55199664


Actually I'm pretty certain I've read somewhere before that the Falcon's ship class are a huge pain to get used to flying due to the strange cockpit position.

So by all rights she should've crashed it a minute or two in and the movie would've awkwardly ended early.

>> No.55199667
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>Short story
Acquire a fetish for dominant women, then go full magical realm.

>Long story
You write a female villain by writing a good female character who's also a villain. Start out by making her powerful and realize that power can take on multiple forms. This is why I recommended learning to love dominant women, because there's quite a few flavors of them. You can have some stupidly strong monstrosity, a cold and calculating mage, a spoiled queen who demands the whole world bows before her beauty or an unscrupulous businesswoman who actively uses blackmail and intimidation as part of her business strategy.

In the end we're dealing with women, so don't be afraid to make them feminine. If their femininity contradicts their villainy, don't worry because that contradiction can actually be quite interesting. Nobody would expect the questionable megacorp CEO to enjoy flower arrangements in her free time, nobody considered that the sadistic mage greatly enjoys baking cakes and who would've ever thought that the domineering queen melts whenever she sees children? Giving them interests, hobbies and likes unrelated to villaining around all day humanizes them and makes them more memorable. It also makes for interesting stories such as "remember when the sorceress tried to adopt the ranger's wolf companion?".

This is something I'm going to catch a lot of flak for on nu-/tg/ but women are weaker than men and have been for as long as humans have been around. This has engrained within women the desire to remain seen as likeable and innocent in society as to avoid conflict (which men are better equiped to deal with). As such deceit, manipulation, hypocrisy, lies and emotional blackmail are part of any female villain's arsenal. If she's cornered, don't be afraid to make her spin a tale about how she fell in love with Goon Commander #41 and how he forced her to do all of this. Even better if the PCs believe her, then you can make sure they live to regret it.

>> No.55199674

>The average adult reading speed for English prose text in the United States seems to be around 250 to 300 words per minute.
>People comfortably can hear words that are spoken at from 150 to 160 words per minute. However, when normal speech is increased to 210 words per minute, using compression, there is no loss in comprehension
So text games are not only not slower than voice games, but are actually faster. Thanks for proving my point.

>> No.55199675

The OT was a clear, clever tabletop campaign with drama, action, mystery and managed to get the players emotionally involved. It had highs and lows, a satisfying conclusion, etc.

The Force Awakens - and the coming movies -are basically what happens when an otherwise okay GM brings his girlfriend into the game and makes shitty choices.

>> No.55199697

Mainly though, I'd say that: Yes, Rey is a rather bland mary sue, and I can understand why people would be less than pleased with that, but I also feel that there are plenty of male mary sues that people are largely fine with. I think that maybe there's a tendency not to take the male mary sues too seriously and just to enjoy their ass-kicking for what it is, while holding Rey to a different standard. Maybe we're just used to tough guys doing ridiculous shit, while Rey stands out more. *Shrug* I'm not saying she's an awesome character or anything, but it does feel like there's been a bit of an overreaction against her.

>> No.55199702

Nobody thinks that Ripley or Sarah Connor is a Mary Sue.

>> No.55199728

Read the full text. The section for reading speed assumes that you're not reading the text in-depth.
If your players are not reading in depth the quality of the game drops dramatically, as they lose details and otherwise good quality posts become general summaries.

Still, reading/listening does go to the reader's favour at 180 compared to 150-160 per minute.
But that doesn't off set the insane difference between writing and speaking.

>> No.55199740


Pretty simple desu senpai.


>> No.55199791

>If your players are not reading in depth the quality of the game drops dramatically, as they lose details and otherwise good quality posts become general summaries.
What is this contrived scenario you just pulled out of your ass? Have you ever played a text game? GMs don't make their players read entire fucking novels on the fly, and neither are the players required to write huge blocks of text with intensely hidden details contained within. The average ingame response is only a few words long.

>> No.55199802
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>> No.55199804

The original trilogy was incredibly good -- actually, just the first two movies, because, let's face it, Return of the Jedi didn't even begin to stack up to them -- while The Force Awakens was derivative bubblegum that was, at best, entertaining, but hardly a work of art or excellence. But I don't know that we're gonna see many (if any) Star Wars movies that come close to A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back. The Force Awakens fares a bit better when the prequels are included. Admittedly, they set a very low bar, and I quite understand if you dismiss them as trash and suggest that favorably comparing to them means nothing, but it does seem like some people treat The Force Awakens as if it were the first Star Wars movie that was lackluster, and that's clearly not the case.

>> No.55199843

I think the characters are part of it. You've got bog standard "Strong female protagonist with tragic past that doesn't affect her at all" and "Loyal, secretly good, non-threatening black man". So people inclined one way or the other rate the movie better or worse because of that. Plus those tweets during production that outright said the First Order was supposed to be white and evil.

And, of course, take all that away and you get a set of characters who aren't really that interesting. Within 20 minutes of meeting Luke you know he's a dreamer who likes to fiddle with technology, you've got an eye on his social life and family situation. Within 20 minutes of meeting Rey you know she wants more portions.

>> No.55199877

>Nobody thinks that Ripley or Sarah Connor is a Mary Sue.
But that's not really the point. They are more down-to-earth and believable characters, but there are plenty of male action heroes who aren't, but who don't seem to catch much flack for it. Again, I'm not suggesting that criticism of Rey is invalid; it just feels a bit more... enthusiastic than I'd expect.

>> No.55199879
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more portions,* because holy shit, Rei Ayanami gets more characterization than that and she's literally an emotionless doll who does nothing she isn't told to.

>> No.55199951

> but there are plenty of male action heroes who aren't
Yeah, but none of them in Star Wars. Star Wars is not Terminator 3 or some other dumb shit. It's Star Wars, a franchise with millions of rabid fans. Standards are to be expected.

>> No.55199978

>Yeah, but none of them in Star Wars. Star Wars is not Terminator 3 or some other dumb shit. It's Star Wars, a franchise with millions of rabid fans. Standards are to be expected.
Fair point.

>> No.55200033

Just to add to your "Desire to remain seen as likable" thing.

It doesn't even have to be that. Part of what makes a villain a villain, is that they use EVERY weapon they have. If they think being attractive/likable/innocent is a good tool to their goals, then they will take advantage of that whenever they can.

"Villain who pretends to be redeemed, only to escape" does this. If the majority of the heroes appear to be attracted to women, then the character will try and take advantage of that, because in my experience, people are more likely to consider "maybe she's given up?" if there's something about her that they want to keep seeing show up in the game.
The "Sexy Villainess" trope doesn't just exist for fanservice, it's because ever since spies, ninja, and male dominated law-enforcement/authority have been a thing, sex appeal has been considered a "weapon/tool" to achieve ones goals. Attractive people have an easier time in life, and it's a sign of corruption to be freely willing to take advantage of that no matter what.

Granted, not every female villain has to pull the "evil seductress" thing off, just like not every male villain has to be hiding behind paperwork and law enforcement, but don't be afraid to use it just because it seems "magical realm".

>> No.55200239


Spider-man with his lame puns and one-liners is insufferable

>> No.55200342

The current BBEG in my campaign setting is a woman whose children died of the plague and who is desperately trying to find a way to bring them back to life.

It doesn't help that she used to be a Fang of Vemnas (Paladin) and she's basically a blackguard mashed together with cleric.

She's gone crazy after the death of her children and is seeking out any means of returning them to life. She's currently trying to, with the aid of a Gnoll Cleric of Yeenoghu and a cabal of Orcish Clerics, realign the plane with the rest of the "standard" D&D planes. Doing so will allow the devils, demons, other gods and such things to re-enter the plane. It will also cause an energy which the tarrasque feeds on to re-enter the plane.

The tarrasque which is currently buried under a mountain range which is a massive Stone Dragon God and who is only able to be contained because said energy has been missing from the plane for ten thousand years.

The party's having fun with that. And I'm having fun roleplaying a woman who is past the point of return and who is willing to damn an entire plane, and possibly more, just to bring her children back.

>> No.55200391

>one of the most basic examples would be that most male villains will do dirty work themselves (for fun) and women won't dirty themselves (and just watch as one of their goons do the job)
you mean real world villains, like hitler or stalin, or fantasyland male villains who are based around your ideas of what male or female villains should do?
Because it seems to me that you are just spewing a lot of bullshit.

>> No.55200421

Why not just buy diamonds and pay a cleric to cast raise dead.

>> No.55200430

alright /pol/tard, let me get it straight to you
What was answered was how to make a female villain rather than a stereotype.
when OP makes a male villain or NPC he doesn't focus on what makes him male but on what makes him a villain that works in his setting.
He doesn't have the viallain say or do something so that his players know that the character is male.
And he should do the same for a female villain.

>> No.55200469

I keep resurrection rare and expensive. When she was introduced, it wasn't as a BBEG. She was just a paladin who went crazy and was trying to track down a Ring of Wishes.

They first ran into her at 8th level.

>> No.55200488

>I keep resurrection rare and expensive
Why not just assemble a gang and keep robbing caravans. Or banks. Or treasuries. Or temples. It's a much simpler solution than making apocalyptic deals with demons.

>> No.55200490

So? It's twats like you that made her internet famous, if you shits hadn't sperged out in 2014 no one would know who she is. She's a monster of your own making

>> No.55200579

When I say rare and expensive, I mean, RARE. There's one guy on the continent who can cast True Resurrection. One. And he was killed by the party. Accidentally, but still dead.

>> No.55200621

We get it, your setting is not like the others.

>> No.55200623

Method one. >>55192254 This.
Method two. Make her a seductress who wants to have power over male leaders through intrigue. Probably keeping herself young and beautiful by bathing in bloood of virgins.

>> No.55200637

Nope. Vladimir, Yaroslav, Olga - pretty much all I can remember.

>> No.55200675

Rouge one I feel is the best star wars movie.

>> No.55200915

>Rouge one I feel is the best star wars movie.
It was fine -- better than everything else since the original trilogy, I think -- but, to me, it didn't feel like it completely came together in an artistic sense. The story didn't seem inevitable, like it's what it needed to be. It just seemed... adequate. It was entertaining, but it didn't really move me. Rogue One falls somewhere in the range of B+ or A- while the original Star Wars gets an A+ in my book (or maybe just an A if you're not judging the action and special effects in their historical context).

>> No.55200943

It's not so much physical abilities rather than villains being much more heavilly related to the social structure than the heroes in most scenarios. While you can slap a pair of tits on any hero of the moment and call it a day, changing a villain the same but not doing anything else will often involve changing the world. The same behaviour will provoke different reactions depending on circumstance.

However this does not mean any type of villain is completely off limits to any gender. Male villains can be seducers, Female villains can be unthinking brutes in the rape, pillage, burn scenario etc. but bear in mind that if you can just change the gender of someone and it does nothing to the world, they're probably not fleshed out enough that changing physical details would make a difference and probably classed as a poor villain.

>> No.55201029

anon was talking about the making of the villain, not how the world reacts to it, and even there, unless there are very strong role definitions in that world they would accept her just as well as a male villain. And by very strong I mean saudi arabia level role definitions.

The problem that anon was highlighting is that when people who make only make characters try to make a female one, rather than focusing on making her a distinct individual, with her her own goals and motivations tied to her role in the story, will try to highlight as much as possible the fact that she's a woman, drawing upon all their stereotypes and idealiations on what a woman should be.
Which is a typical problem of all token characters. They tend to revolve all around their identity rather than having an organic role in the story.

So for instance a mae villain could be one who hates everyone, or someone who was a bused as a child and wants to grow powerful so nobody can abuse him, could be arrogant and spoiled and want power because he thinks he should be above everyone else, or could believe he's the only one who can lead and save humanity and for this needs to eradicate all heretics, or any other number of things, and their representation would be based around their goals, and their individual personality traits.
While with a female villain there is a risk that the OP will base everything around her being a woman, and will try to insert actions that will inform the players of her being a woman and so on.
Making a female characer just like you were making a male one who just happens to be female is the best way for someone with little social interactions, especially with women, to make a decent female character.

>> No.55201165

Someone with little social interactions probably isn't qualified to be making very compelling characters in general.

>> No.55201214

First, makle a good villain.

>> No.55201223

That's pretty hard core anon

>> No.55201251

my favourite female villain is the old witch who at first appears as a sweet granny but then you see she has some plans in store

>> No.55201557

some other historical sources of inspiration
from prostitute to leader of the biggest pirate fleet ever, controlled by a series of strict rules

who "inherited" the family criminal business when her brothers and husband were arrested, and increased her clan's power to becoming the most powerful group by cold rationality, intelligence and sheer brutality

from petty criminal to powerful drugord, she was a drug addict herself and forced people of both sexes to have sex with her and to participate in bisexual orgies

who became a criminal leader to avenge her husband

and many others.

There are also guerrilla or partisan leaders, who are not villains, but can be good examples of a woman leading a military group.

wikipedia can be a good place to start from


>> No.55202116

Why would I hire a female for my muscle when I can have a bigger, stronger male?

>> No.55202146

Stop playing FATAL

>> No.55202156
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>Serious answer
You can have them act like ninja (the historical ones), in that they disguise themselves as workers around your household. Would-be assassins know to avoid the huge dude at the gate, they'll be less wary of the maid who may or may not be hiding a knife under her skirt.

>Fantasy answer
It's fantasy. Women being competent is only slightly less plausible than the existence of dragons.

>> No.55202239

Easy lazy way

- a maternal who want to protect "her children"
- the wife who trying to put her husband in a better spot
- the suductress (which doesn't work well in over the table games)

One of the most popular female villians my players liked was tough as nails leader of a rival adventuring party who was looting the same place they where. When they finally defeated her they found out she spent a ton of gold on shoes.

>> No.55202254


>> No.55202256

A good villain requires that you've established a good hero and a proper moral basis to your story. The hero is your moral base, a champion of certain values and ideals that will be challenged in your story. A good hero means that the audience accepts the values and the champion that you've crafted to uphold them.

So if you have a "good hero" you can go on to define a villain as a champion of immorality, a character that violates the values represented by your hero. A good villain in this sense is the champion of a set of values and ideals that the audience wants to see be overcome and vanquished by the values and ideals embodied by the hero.

A male hero embodies certain cultural or even personal ideals about a man and masculinity while a male villain defies if not outright violates them somehow. The same is true of females. Defiance and violation can mean being the opposite of those values or it can mean going to an unacceptable extreme.

So first try to conceive of a male hero and a male villain in this way as you seem more comfortable with that for the moment. Then try the same with a female hero and then a villain. Start thinking about heroes and villains across media and pick out what the heroes represent versus what their villains represent and when this idea clicks you will be able to better figure out your heroes and your villains regardless of whether they are male, female, or could be either.

>> No.55202268

this is what i and that other anon were referring to when saying to mke her the same way hed make a male villain and then just make her female
to avoid this kind of crap

>> No.55202297

A female villain who acts just like a male villain is stupid. Same way with heroes.

Ripley (from the alien series) is great, mostly do the the fact while she can do amazing things, she is indeed a female and does things that a male would not do.

>> No.55202335

>the wife who trying to put her husband in a better spot
When was that ever a thing?

>> No.55202343

Ripley being female is more or less unimportant to Alien but it is a vital aspect of her character in Aliens. Aliens would be a fundamentally different movie if Ripley was male.

>> No.55202392

there isn't a make villain or a female villain.
There are individual villains who act on their own individual impulses and motivations.

Multiple examples of real life female villains have been provided in this thread, which prove that your opinions are stupid.

> she is indeed a female and does things that a male would not do.

which is again bullshit, because there is no thing that only a male or only a female would do.
Proceeding that way would only lead to a shitty token female villain.

>> No.55202463

ripley was not written as a woman
> The script by O'Bannon and Shusett also had a clause indicating that all of the characters are "unisex", meaning they could be cast with men or women. Consequently, all of the characters are only referred to by their last name (Dallas, Kane, Ripley, Ash, Lambert, Parker, and Brett), and the few gender-specific pronouns (he or she) were corrected after casting. However, Shusett and O'Bannon never thought of casting Ripley as a female character.

>> No.55202467

Alien is one big allegory of male on female rape and it's consequences for a victim. Ripley being female is very important.

>> No.55202498

Agreed, though if Ripley was a male I am not sure people would buy that she would go back for the cat.

No anon, look at the lists.


Ruthless to make her son emperor.

Obliterated whole tribes to gain revenge for her husband and protect her son.
>Elizabeth Báthory
A serial killer that we have no idea if the clames are true or not.

And so on.

Even if you look at the classics - the heros and villans who are female (Tamora from Titus and Rosalind as you like it as exampes) are uniquely female - and the reasons why they are so good.

making a female villain just like a male is just putting boobs on a man.

>> No.55202536


>> No.55202712

Stop fucking bringing up Ripley for these arguments. She's not a good character.

>> No.55202803
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>> No.55202851
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Someone is butthurt

And yes she is a good character you fucking nu-male

>> No.55202871

Honestly this is pretty much how I write, as a DM and as a player

Get class, stats, basic visual design/aesthetic out of the way

Establish personality and motivation

And then at or near the very end of making the character, just flip a coin for gender. Changing anything previously established based on coin result is forbidden.

Maybe toss a shirt on if it ended up making a topless barbarian a chick

Results in some pretty interesting characters honestly, in my experience.

>> No.55202918

Creators are naturally poor critics of their own creations

>> No.55202945


I'm probably gonna get shit for saying it, but Cersei is a great example. Make the traditional archetype of a nurturing woman twisted into a destructive agenda.

Make her an overbearing and over-caring motherly figure for her children/flock/whatever and use them or others to only benefit those she cares for.

>> No.55203586

no anon, you look at the lists.
You posted 2 from a dozen links, and those 2 weren't een villains in the strict sense of the term.
And the same would apply for many kings since one of their main worries was to pass on the kingdom to their son.

>> No.55203621


A good character isn't defined by their gender, they're defined by their actions, motivations, goals, personality quirks, and so on.

>men and women are different.

And yet women can't be evil, conniving and machiovellian?

Your post reeks of misogyny. Go back to your containment board.

>> No.55203671

>And yet women can't be evil, conniving and machiovellian?
Where did he say that?
>Your post reeks of misogyny. Go back to your containment board.
Projecting much, Anita?

>> No.55203717

go back to /v/, you fuckes ruined everything

>> No.55203741

heres your answer at 1:10

>> No.55203747

The same way you would make a good male villain, but female.

>> No.55203801

But my male villains don't have those in the first place.

>> No.55203827
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>> No.55204074

I think this is a perfectly valid method of character creation and I use it myself sometimes. But I also think that it's good to switch it up too. Even if you shy away from biological explanations for differing character personalities and motivations, sociological explanations are still likely to exist, unless you are playing in a society where gender roles somehow do not exist.

I'm not saying you should have gender play a role in defining every one of your characters either. Some of my favorite creations were made using your approach.

Also some barbarian chicks might not care that they are topless depending upon their culture.

>> No.55204202

I don't know, I've been kinda feeling sympathy for her after the Island episode.
Ursa was a terrible mother, wasn't she?

>> No.55204205

And you don't suppose that gender can play into a character's motivations, goals, personality works, and so on? You don't think that identical actions don't play a part in the perception of a character based on their gender? You don't think that culture and society has general schemas about what men and women or boys and girls are like?

>> No.55204232

Remember, everything is sexist and you have to point it out, you misogynist scum.

>> No.55204388

do you use gender motivations to make a male villain?
You could do it, if you are a good storyteller with a very good understanding of humans and a great amout of experience and social interactions with other people.
Many great writers have done so.
Since you and the OP are neither of those things it's better to just focus on making a good villain that could be of either sex, and making her gender a secondary detail.

>> No.55204423


The point is that women can play the part of villain the same way that men can. Instead of having an evil emperor you would have an evil empress. The OP is stating that they cannot. As stated in my OP, the character is defined by their actions, motivations, goals, personality quirks, and so on. All gender is is just some surface level bullshit that virgins from place way too much weight on. Its as >>55198777 said.


Sure. And you can even play on some of those differences if you like in your story, the original point is that the characters gender is only one aspect of a much larger piece of the writing. Its like saying a gay character can't be written for the most part the same as the main hero of the story because he is SOOOOO much different from being a straight man.

>> No.55204428

>do you use gender motivations to make a male villain?
Seeking power over others is heavily associated with masculinity.

>> No.55204470

Make them petty. Remember when robot chicken made the joke about hermione being bullied until she committed suicide?

>> No.55204514

>Seeking power over others is heavily associated with masculinity.
That's just literally your own idea.
seeking power over others is an aspect present in both men and women.
The methods for acquiring power may change, but that is a matter of opportunity, not of human nature.

>> No.55204531

I mean, this is just a normal thing for Jedi. Luke sucked at using a lightsaber, but as soon as he used the force instead of just randomly trying to guard himself, he was instantly deflecting lasers like a pro.

Not that Rey isn't a bland copy of Luke, I'm just pointing out that the whole 'suddenly I can do this thing' has always been something the force does for you.

>> No.55204556

>something something why do you men always have to fight for top dog status

>> No.55204564

But women do it too.

>> No.55204585

Not in feminist magical realm that is gender theory.

>> No.55204734

Men and women have different abilities, lead different lives, and have different expectations bestowed upon them by society. They have equivalents but that is not the same as being exactly the same so you can just switch genders.

Take the movie Rocky for example. You can't just make Rocky Balboa a woman. So much of the movie has to change if you do that for the story to feel authentic. Imagine if Catwoman was just simply a man, no biggie right? Wrong.

>> No.55204761

> The methods for acquiring power may change
Oh, maybe because of the character's gender?

>> No.55205586

Women make for poor villains in the same way midgets or people with googly eyes make for poor villains. They're just not intimidating.

>> No.55206056
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Midgets and people with googly eyes can still be pieces of shit.

>> No.55206127
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But they can be tremendously sexier than their good, heroic counterparts, so they are always welcome.

>> No.55206518

She loved Zuko more than Azula because she thought he was the son of her previous husband and Azula was her child with Ozai who she despised.

>> No.55207113
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>Imagine if Catwoman was just simply a man
>Catman is a faggot fuccboi in tight spandex sporting a huge bulge that makes Gotham's resident crimefighter incredibly uncomfortable by acting in extremely homoerotic ways
>In Arkham he's put in an isolation cell not because he's so dangerous, but because the other prisoners complained about showering with him
>Supposedly he kept dropping the soap and picking it up while giggling and wiggling his butt

>> No.55207168
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>> No.55208094

>Woman in love with incompetent male and has to do the dirty work for him so he can succeed.
Honestly it just sounds like every "married couple" sitcom ever.

>> No.55208195

>Woman in love
>every "married couple" sitcom ever
Maybe early Simpsons. Nowadays that utterly exhausted cliché mostly has the wife barely tolerating her utterly incompetent husband. She doesn't take care of him out of love, and often a big plotpoint in these trite shows is the woman wondering why she fell in love in the first place.

>> No.55208206

She's avenging her dead husband, and she really genuinely loved him and is faithful to his memory, living a chaste life of destructive vengeance for the rest of her life.
Bonus points if she goes to places or sings/plays songs that remind her of her lost love when she's alone.

>> No.55208315
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You just triggered my magical realm!
>The queen genuinely adores her husband, who's a wise ruler and a competent administrator whose only flaw is being too trusting of his vassals and peers
>As such there are constant plots against the king's life, power and throne
>At least half of them would've succeeded if not for the queen using highly clandestine and morally questionable means to "remove" these individuals that dare harm her hubby
Maybe it can transition into your scenario after one of these plots eventually succeeds and she seizes power for herself after getting rid of all eligible pretenders in a fit of paranoid rage.

>> No.55208592

I can't believed Zuko forgave her for all the shit she pulled.

>> No.55208917

Rogue One is by far the worst one. I've never been so close to leaving a movie theatre in my life. None of the characters where interesting, the entire plot was a complete drag, the planet names were uninspired references. The only halfway entertaining part is watching all these shits die at the end.
At least the prequels would occasionally give you points of light in the form of a well acted scene from Ewan McGregor or Ian McDiarmid hamming it up, but Rogue One doesn't have anything even close to that.

>> No.55209355

>le prequels are shit meme

Holy shit will you fucking stop it? These movies are sugary shit made for adolescents and children. Nostalgia goggles, internet memes, and your own severe faggotry have made you believe otherwise, but the prequels are no worse written or acted, nor more outlandish, if anything, CGI, more worldbuilding, and a different galactic situation make them arguably better. Oh no, the sequels had Jar Jar and a cringy child actor, boohoo. Chewie and the Ewoks were ten times as bad a comic relief, and if you listen to actual children talk IRL, you'll see they're just as "cringy" and wacky.
Also the prequels had more, better, and more amazing jedi duels, if you were solely focusing on the rule of cool. Now stop weeping.

>> No.55209484


Wow 55202467 you must feel dumb as shit right now. Because you are. Giger's work=/=Alien film.

>> No.55209564

demonic posession

>> No.55210163

>more amazing jedi duels
No. The one in A New Hope was horribly stilted even for the times, but I'd take that over the overchoreographed rave parties of the prequels. Hell, the final fight between Aniken and Obi Wan felt boring. They managed to stretch out a light saber duel for so long and bring it to so many weird locations that it becomes uninteresting.

>> No.55210255

>>Bucky the vampire slayer
>>Spike is a hot blonde tomboy vampire that wants his dick, Angel is goth girl with long black hair
>>Wesley is cute librarian lady who eventually becomes jaded badass
>>Duke is an amazonesque black girl from the bad part of town, Fred is a quirky nerd dude who falls for her confidence and strength

Shit, rule 63 buffy sounds pretty fucking good to me

>> No.55210426

>script matters more than a resulting movie, even though many parts of the film were thought up while shooting, deviating from the script
>obvious sexual subtext can be ignored because script didn't specify which character is which sex
Sure, anon.

>> No.55210947

What makes Azula so good as a villain is the fact that, on one hand, you completely understand why she is the way she is, but at the same time she has had so many chances to step back and redeem herself - even being offered forgiveness with no questions asked - that she was eventually her own worst enemy and brought herself down through her own actions.

>> No.55211005

>The one in A New Hope was horribly stilted even for the times
That's because the fights in the OT were based on real life kenjutsu, which focuses a lot on spacing, footwork, and singular blows made after you have read the opponents body language.
You don't see it in movies because it is sorta boring.

>> No.55211030

Who, his mom? He realized that his mother wasn't perfect, but was stuck in a shitty situation and tried to do her best to be a wife to a raging, egotistical tyrant who uses permanent corporeal punishment for minor transgressions AND be a decent mother to her son, and try to overcome her dislike of her broken daughter.

If you're talking about Azula, then Zuko realizes that she's just as much a victim of their father as he is, and while he'll strike her down if he has to, he simply can't hate her - she never had a chance to be anything but a bad person, and when he offered her the chance to be a good one, she was so far gone that she couldn't take it even if she wanted to.

>> No.55211175

Still, every other light saber fight in the OT was good. Especially in the last battle between Luke and Vader, you can really see Luke wailing on Vader in a fit of rage. The Obi Wan - Vader fight is just... bad (which may have something to do with the age of the actor for Obi Wan?). I don't know what it is, but something makes that fight different from the other OT lightsaber duels.

>> No.55213660

Male crime lords and corrupt political leaders tend to be feminine. It's part of the reason why they didn't succeed in lawful society and ended up becoming criminals.

>> No.55213949

>Check out the average speed differences between typing and dictating.
? I type much faster than I talk.

>> No.55214004

He is right, you know.

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