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[ERROR] No.54184285 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

How corrupt can a modern country/empire be until it collapses?

I want to create a banana republic for alternative history/urban fantasy.

>> No.54184363

As corrupt as it wants as long as it can somewhat affords the bread,circuses, and guns to keep the population in line.

>> No.54184411

>>54184285
something something joke about modern america

But legit though - take a look at late era western roman empire

>> No.54184433

>>54184285
Have everybody addicted to masturbation.

>> No.54185486

>>54184285

Corruption doesn't cause collapse. Weakness causes collapse. If the people running a nation are not only corrupt but also powerful, they won't fall. They can set their nation up to believe whatever they want.

Just look at the US. Constantly attacking foreign nations for no reason, has openly admitted to trying to assassinate foreign leaders, has been the only nation to use nuclear weapons offensively, disregards the poverty in its own nation to focus on helping the rich get richer, and treats its citizens like cattle. It's up there with corrupt nations, but it's so powerful that nothing can be done about it, its citizens barely register they're in a pseudo-dictatorship, they actively praise people joining the military to kill others, and they truly believe they're in a benevolent land of freedom.

Basically, whoever has the biggest stick can be as corrupt as they like without fear of collapse.

>> No.54185503

>>54184285
Look at the Wiemar republic.

>> No.54185535

>>54184285
Define "collapses"?
Is it when they can no longer function relatively peacefully until population starts a massed armed uprising? They could still maintain their control over most of the country with arms.
Is it when major, if not most of the country is out of their control with them controlling token territories? Or a complete overthrow?

>> No.54185600

>>54185503
Weimar was more poorly run than corrupt IIRC.

Really, if OP wants advice on banana republics he needs to look into actual banan republics. For a game he doesn't need to go autistic with his research and worldbuiling, and the cursory material on various small-time corrupted and mismanaged countries is easily available.

>> No.54185634

>>54185486
>Constantly attacking foreign nations for no reason

Oh, come off it, we always have a reason. It's usually even a pretty good one tactically speaking. We've just started to suck at grand strategy.

>has been the only nation to use nuclear weapons offensively

In our defense, we've also been the nation that's worked harder than any other at preventing any more than two nuclear weapons being used in war. For all our nuclear might, we're pretty much the LEAST likely nation to use a nuke in wartime, at least against a non-nuclear enemy (let's be real: if we were ever going to use nukes again, we would have in Afghanistan).

I mean, as a counter-example, the United Kingdom specifically reserves the right to use a small nuclear weapon in a first-strike scenario as a "political statement". I.e., if the Argentinians look like they're gearing up to make another go at the Falklands, the United Kingdom expressly reserves the right to drop a nuke on an Argie military base in order to ward them off.

>> No.54185686

>>54184285
Very.
Banana republics tend to collapse only because the leader died without a clear successor or a foreign nation got involved.
They usually handle the internal riff-raff very well.

>> No.54185748

>>54185686
>implying El Presidente is not an immortal, timeless being

>> No.54185773

>>54185486
>Constantly attacking foreign nations for no reason
Money is a pretty obvious reason.

>> No.54185860

>>54185634
Yes, but no one has ever seriously claimed that Perfidious Albion is not a force of evil in this world.

>> No.54185865

>>54184285
Look at Hungary, Russia, and China (at least before the various centralization anti-corruption crackdowns for the latter two).

>> No.54186068

>>54184285
You can keep it very corrupt for a long time, as long as you have the armed men to keep the lid on and no surprising events interfere.

This can last many decades nowadays. Possibly longer, but I don't feel qualified to judge that.

Being unimportant to the world helps.

Or being the lesser evil too. All North Korea news are rethoric from both sides. The troublesome issue is keeping a fragile country of blowing up but also keeping from prospering. Meanwhile, the dictator has to balance the secret police and the army. If the whole game of cards collapses, you have about 25 million utterly alienated people/refugees, a civil war, vacuum for more extremist power grabbers, nuclear weapons, countless bunkers and unknown amounts of chemical/biological weapons. I shudder every time I recall they used VX to poison his brother. That thing is nasty, and they could seed their soil with chemical landmines.

No one wants to take care of that. Even China would have issues absorving 25 million people at once, and that is if they want to in the first place. Others might collapse their own economy trying to. The whole situation would make the current Middle East sound like a nuisance.

>> No.54187882

>>54185634

>Oh, come off it, we always have a reason.

No legitimate reason, then. They like to make shit up to convince the population to accept it, but that's just the behaviour of a corrupt nation.

>let's be real: if we were ever going to use nukes again, we would have in Afghanistan

Not even slightly, since it makes raping a foreign nation's natural resources much harder under nuclear fallout.

>> No.54187905

>>54184285
This is a stealth /pol/ thread, isn't it?

>> No.54188230

>>54187905
Possibly it's been mostly civil so far.

>>54185486
You know why they used the atomic bombs, doesn't make them corrupt for using them. I'm sure you've heard the casualties statistics before.

Anyway you are guaranteed some (you's) today.

>> No.54189351

>>54188230

>You know why they used the atomic bombs

Yeah:
>to test it in a real situation and show off their new toy to Russia

That's it. Most believe the "corrupt" version, that it was a selfless, heroic, necessary act to stop the evil Japanese horde, who refused to surrender. But they ignore that the Japanese were already offering a surrender months before hand, were driven back to their island by the US forces already, and were getting invaded from the north by Russia so no longer a threat. Not to mention that TWO nukes were dropped, over civilian populations.

And even in the official version, if they wanted to force a Jap surrender, dropping them off the coast but in sight of a city would've done the job. But they wanted to kill people, specifically as an act of petty revenge for Pearl Harbour.

>> No.54191149

>>54185634
>Nuking Argentina
>Argentina starting shit
Oh please, Argentina of today couldn't beat Argentina of 1982

>> No.54191371

For corruption to destroy a modern country there must be the following factors

1)The population is connected to the needs provided to the governing elite but not enough amentities is cared for. A population cant rebel if they are starving, illiterate and completely isolated. A Banana Republic population has revolt urges when the money they get isnt enough go provide them with medicine and education among all things and have the means to do so.

2) Economy boom or Bust also makes corruption's effects on society able to cause collapse as either one side wants everything from the resource boom or the economy is bad enough that they too are starving to death

3) Corruption in the keys to power. If a leader's enemy have more power than intended they are inevitably going ro hold delusions if grandeur. No longer content with just beibg a lacky they want the throne themselves so they start provoking a situation to start a rebellion or coup and promise lofty promises if they switch sides.

>> No.54191702

>>54189351
Incorrect: The Emperor of Japan wanted to surrender,his generals on the other hand would not.

In fact they were plotting a coup to overthrow him and continue the war.

There were ONLY two ways the war could end.

Either with a costly bloody invasion the Purple Hearts of which are still being used TO THIS DAY...........


Or we harness the energies of creation to make the most powerful weapons that have ever shed the blood of fellow men.

And End The War With A Single Stroke.
Bombings:226,000

Invasion:41,885,500

ANY QUESTIONS.

>> No.54191730

>>54189351
Conditional surrender is no surrender, anon. Let's not revise the facts, mm-kay?
And 'revenge for pearl harbor'?? Are you fucking kidding us? You clearly are unaware of Curtis Lemay and the application of 'firebombing'.

>> No.54191781

>>54191730
>Conditional surrender is no surrender, anon.

That's not true. There is surrender beyond unconditional. I mean, that's why we need to include the term 'Unconditional' when describing it.

>> No.54191802

>>54185486
lulz
You're not even technically wrong you're just a basic bitch.

>> No.54191826

>>54191702
It takes an incredibly limited historical imagination, or wilful ignorance, two think those were the only two options. Seriously, even a cursory knowledge of the subject should dissuade such simple thinking.

>> No.54191959

>>54191826
No, simple knowledge of the facts - Borneo proved Japan would not fall easily.
Seriously, even a cursory knowledge of the subject should dissuade such simple thinking.

>> No.54192121

>>54191959
You're incredibly thick- you seem to think I'm suggesting that the invasion could go ahead, but not be that bad. You're so locked into this binary set of options that you can't conceive of a reality where japan is neither invaded nor atomically bombed, and still surrenders: something that is not only plausible but likely.

You should stop huffing radiation, it's melting your brain.

>> No.54192151

>>54184285
There really isn't an upper limit.

Corruption is only likely to cause collapse if the country has some strong institutions that resist the corruption, leading to internal conflict.

In fact, at a certain point, a sufficiently extreme degree of corruption can actually prop up a weak regime, as powerful corporate and organized crime interests essentially become extensions of the regime itself and will independently seek to support it.

>> No.54192163

>>54191826
>>54191959
Look nobody here wants a fight.It can be argued that there were other options.

BUT, It can also be argued that the U.S government either was not aware of them or had reason to think that they would cause even more deaths.


But let's not argue politics here.......That Is What /POL/Is For.

>> No.54192310

>>54192163
This troll>>54192121
wants to fight, anon. He's pushing fantasy like it's history, and bein' stupid about it. The allies would never accept anything but total surrender after the shit they put up with. That's a fact.

>> No.54192347

>>54192310
"I like to eat my cum and also my pubes"
-Your name, spoken in a gay lisp

>> No.54192455

Wow, you sure showed him.

>> No.54192488

>>54184285
Just keep watching Brazil news feeds.

I dare someone show to me a fictional OR real society more corrupt than 2017 Brazil.

>> No.54192714

>>54192488
What stands out?

>> No.54192780

>>54184285
If you ever reach the point where the people want the bananas to fuck off, look into Venezuela. Shit's fucked over there right now.

>> No.54192886

>>54185486

The only country in the world where you're allowed to speak your mind and own legal firearms.

We ARE free, as much as you cucked yuropoors want to think otherwise while your governments import muslims to rape, murder, and replace you.

kys and kiss my ass bitch.

>> No.54192979

>>54192886
Way to prove him wrong. Dumbass.

>> No.54193101

>>54192886
>the ONLY country in the world with guns and freedom of speech rights
Fucking kek. I'm an American and even I know that's not true. There's plenty of other nations that have one or both of these things, most of which are in Europe.

>> No.54193413

What do you even think corruption is?

>> No.54197675

>>54185634

That would be fucking glorious. Uppity nations might need a nuking once in a while.

>> No.54197688

>>54191702

We could had just sieged the fucking islands and kept bombing them. Why do we NEED to go into their meatgrinder? Japan was fucked in late 45. Just wait them out the winter and onto spring.

>> No.54197740

>>54191959
Japan was willing to surrender, the US dropped the bombs only to make sure Japan would negotiate only with them and not the USSR.

>> No.54197754

>>54197740

Japan wanted to go back to status quo antebellum. They were trying to salvage their empire and be poised to try again in twenty, thirty years. They weren't going to give up Manchuria, Korea, or Taiwan. Would you had accepted that surrender?

>> No.54198130

>>54189351
They rejected our terms for surrender.

We were treaty obligated not to accept their conditions, and we honored our treaty (with the UK, USSR etc).

>> No.54198242

>>54192886
The czech senate just voted to amend their constitution to guarantee the right to keep, bear, and carry arms.

That means a European country literally has more gun rights than some US states, as not all 50 states have unrestricted or guaranteed shall-issue carry.

You fucking Americans can't even keep up with Europe in GUN RIGHTS anymore - what good even is the US?

>> No.54198462

>>54192488
Compare Brazil to Venezuela. That's the literal line between "breathtakingly corrupt" and "too corrupt to function as a nation."

>> No.54198559

>>54193101
Europe does not have free speech. You can get jailed for basically wrong think in Germany for example if you question allied narrative of ww2. That's not freedom.

>> No.54198565

>>54198242
Are you from there or do you have too much time to get ALL the news?
I am surprised anyone heard about that.

>> No.54198604

>>54198565
I've got a real bad problem about being a news junkie.

>> No.54198656

>>54192488
This. There's a reason why they mock Brazil politics as a more absurd irl House of Cards season.
But it's as other anon said, as long as you have bread and circus. The corruption will fly. You don't even need guns if the bulk of the population turned as corruption as the government or are simply too dumb and lazy to make protests that actually impact the country enough to generate a positive reaction.

>> No.54198668

>>54189351
>But they ignore that the Japanese were already offering a surrender months before hand

No, they were prepared to negotiate a conditional surrender that would allow them to hold onto some of their conquests. Of which they still mostly had, even at the end of the war. Key islands had been taken but much of China was still in Japanese hands, as was most of South East Asia. It's worth pointing out that civilian death rates in those occupied areas were running at 100,000 per MONTH so long as the war continued. Unconditional surrender was considered the only acceptable surrender for the Allies because they wanted to stamp out militarism; they saw the legacy of not completely destroying Germany in 1918 to be the militarism that lead to WW2. They didn't want to fight the same war against Japanese militarism 20 years in the future.

>were driven back to their island by the US forces already

Most Japanese ground forces were still intact and fighting in China.

>and were getting invaded from the north by Russia so no longer a threat.

Didn't care. Japan saw the Soviets as potential negotiators of a conditional peace. The entry of the Russians certainly annoyed the Japanese, but they weren't going to surrender over it.

>But they wanted to kill people, specifically as an act of petty revenge for Pearl Harbour.

No, they wanted to demonstrate that they had a weapon that Japan couldn't fight against. If they wanted to kill people, they had conventional bombs.

>> No.54198674

>>54198559
Germany put more resources into locking up islamophobes than they put into locking up islamic extremists after their rash of islamic extremist terror attacks.

>> No.54198707

>>54198674
Yeah. German leaders are also busy literally replacing the native germans with arabs and want to use the EU to force that shit onto all European nations and peoples. EU can't collapse soon enough.

>> No.54198711

>>54185486
>a pseudo-dictatorship
Not even close to a dictatorship, the President barely has any power on a domestic level, and the government's in a near constant state of gridlock,.

>> No.54198715

>>54198668

(cont.)

The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people than in either atomic attack. Most major Japanese cities were already getting plastered from the air. They didn't need nukes to do that.

What caused Japan to surrender was the nukes, and using them against cities, so their absolute destructive power could be demonstrated, was critical to that, as was using 2 of them. That's because Japan's plan to gain a peace treaty with the Allies was to cause so many Allied casualties when the Allies landed that the Allies would sue for peace. To that end the Japanese were completely willing to conscript their entire population, boys down to 13 and girls to 15, arm them with anything including spears and bows and arrows, and hurl them against the landing beaches on Kyushu. They had 12,000 kamikaze planes ready for that too, plus 3.4 million troops on the Home Islands.

Atomic bombs changed all that. The Japanese couldn't count on a policy of drowning the Allies in blood if the Allies could just fly overhead dropping nukes. Heavy bombers were bad against troops due to inaccuracy and poor penetration of defenses; nukes didn't have to be accurate and blasted aside anything. The Japanese knew the Allies could drop lots of nukes because 2 were dropped; the Japanese had a nuclear program and they knew how complex these things were. By dropping 2, the Allies showed they could mass produce the things. That's why Japan surrendered after the 2nd nuke, not the first.

>> No.54199070

>>54198715
t. Tex McBurger

>> No.54199080

>>54184285
Look at the EU now.
Look at it and laugh at their burning streets.

>> No.54199117

>>54184285
Well, the Soviet Union was corrupt since like 1910, and only collapsed in 1990.

The USA has been corrupt since like 1941, and hasn't collapsed yet.

Venezuela has been collapsing since its existence, and it still hasn't collapsed yet, but its pretty close.

Mexico is also corrupt as shit, and yet it doesn't look like it will collapse any time soon.

>> No.54199138

>>54185486

Holy shit you are deluded if you honestly believe this.

>> No.54199161

>>54199138
he is right

you are the one deluded enough to believe your life is good

>> No.54199178

>>54199080

ugh racist /pol/ posters need to take their facts back to the containment board ugh

>> No.54199182

Corruption is not a real word. It's a clumsy synonym for the patches insecure rulers make and the patches populations make in response.

With a good population or rulership, countries can last a long time.

>> No.54199185

>>54185486
>used nuclear weapons offensively

You mean against that one country that actually attacked them first?

>> No.54199199

>>54199178

>> No.54199210

>>54199161

High standard of living, democratic elections, low ranking on the world corruption index, people free to protest, etc.

I admit we have our problems, but you have to be pretty damn thick, or maybe just really blind, to think the us was a totalitarian shit hole.

>> No.54199218

>>54199185
>its justificable to use a weapon capable of scorching Earth, and mutating millions of people for the next generation. IF they suicide themselves into a naval port.

You are a disgusting human being.

>> No.54199236

>>54198559
>>54198674
>>54198707
This is why the conversations about Europe are always so silly. You're comparing one country with an entire neighborhood of countries. Sure that can work on some levels but when it comes to human rights, that is going to go south quick. For example Switzerland allows private gun ownership and free expression while Germany allows neither. And yet they're both under this umbrella of "Europe".

>> No.54199242

>>54199210
>low ranking on the world corruption index,
>your president is in an all out war against the press and 'deep state' (whatever that is)
>not corrupted

>> No.54199266

>>54199178
Right.
Like the EU isn't falling appart.
The 3Seas group just practically prepared them selves for a total split of from that toxic beraucracy.

Enjoy the images of burning German streets.

>> No.54199269

>>54199218
So you bait me by saying they were used offensively, then you misrepresent me by saying that I approve of nuclear weapons.

8/10, you got me to respond twice and I'm still not sure if you're serious

>> No.54199301

>>54189351
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets

>> No.54199349

>>54199236

>while Germany allows neither

Oh please.

>gun ownership

Weird that thats alwayws used an indicator of civil liberties. Anyways you can have a gun but the requirements are stricter. As a not shitpoor citizen with no prior convictions its not that hard to get a gu. Most people just don't bother.

>free spech

>can't use nazi symbols or deny the Holocaust
>you aren't allowed to incit racial/religious violence

Wew 1984 anyone.

>>54199266
Oh please. Look at the fucking riots in America. Its like you all conveniently forget how many riots happen in other countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States#2010.E2.80.932019

Oh and btw G20 always attracts tons of foreign leftie militants. Thats in no way a regular situation.

>>54184285

>foreign debt is higher than 120% of the GDP

The KGB estimated that thats the point where the magic of coups revolutions etc. happens.

>> No.54199354

>>54197688
>starving millions of people to death is more humane than blowing up 150k
really makes you think

>> No.54199377

>>54199354
And lets not forget:

>potentially killing more than a million allied soldiers against a fanatical enemy that was willing and capable to lead an industrialized guerillia war
>killing much more civilians with ferocious fighting in populated areas

>> No.54199407

>>54192163
Anon, you are making /tg/ and the world a better place.

>> No.54199410

>>54198559
Lol but that's Germany that's their culture.

>> No.54199419

>>54199266
And btw GB seems unable to elect a stable government despite Brexit, has the most terror attacks and is in a really shitty spot economically. Oh and stopping foreigners from coming in also isn't working.

And burgers bragging about islamic invasion of europe conveniently forget that their POTUS will have a name like Pablo Sanchez long before europe hits 25% muslims.

>> No.54199472

>>54199349
>can't use nazi symbols or deny the Holocaust
Why shouldn't you be able to do either?
Why should the government prevent people from expressing their views?

>> No.54199481

Called the Mods. A /pol/ purging is going to happen. Die for Darkseid.

Apokolips may not be a modern example but it is the ultimate example of a system designed to be corrupt and opressive.

>> No.54199484

>>54199410
Germany is trying to impose that shit on the rest of us as well trough the EU.
Fuck the modern day germans. They sicken me.
t. Finn

>> No.54199491

>>54193101
This is wrong as the way our rights work are fairly unique.

Our rights are rights that exist separate from the state, they are just recognized as rights by the state. In almost every other country rights are those that state provides, without the state their would be no rights. In the American mindset our rights are restricted by the government as the government only recognizes some rights, while in the European style mindset the government is the one that frees you.

Truly they are cucks without peer on a philosophical level.

>> No.54199547

>>54185486
>>54184285
>>54184363
>Corruption doesn't cause collapse
What do you mean by corruption? Because Corruption absolutely can cause collapse. I assume people in this thread are talking about relatively sparse ( and despite how bad things are they are still in fact relatively infrequent currently) backroom deals like what people in the west think of as corruption. which is of course isn't good and has negative impact, but doesn't show what happens if corruption continues over time which, again, absolutely can cause or at the very least hasten the collapse of a state.

Corruption can set norms in place that spread from top down across all institutions, and that corruption creates and exacerbates inefficiencies which drains resources and prevents the government from taking ANY action even ones essential to maintaining the survival of the state.

When every individual only works in exchange for bribes, or steal resources for themselves, or nepotistic promotional strategies become dominant the actual amount of material wealth the nation may or may not have becomes immaterial because they state can't use those resources.

>> No.54199659

>>54185486

To elaborate further from my somewhat messy comment here

>>54199547

You keep talking about corruption is a general term for evil, which isn't what corruption is. Corruption is really a kind of an inefficiency that affects all actions. "Stick size" becomes irrelevant if you can't use the stick. if your military contains X amount of corruption ( I know it can't really be cataloged in this way but go with it) then every time you spend money on the military or buy weapons for the military a portion of the cash and weapons disappears into corruption networks and the corruption worsens the portion of resources lost grows and the entire system of the military begins to seize up as the corruption enterprises inevitably become more profitable for the corrupt than for the loyalists. and even though the schemes ake many connected powerful people money they become unable to "shut them off " as it were because the moving parts are each making too much money and no longer require the heads to continue, and the scheme of corruption network to legitimate military becomes unsustainable and the capacity and will of the military to fight becomes diminished.

>> No.54199753

>>54199218
Yea it is fuckhead.

They opened the war with a surprise attack without a formal declaration of war, and went on throughout the rest of the war acting like a bunch of goddamn monsters, throwing babies in the air and catching them on bayonets, slicing open pilot's stomachs and winding their entrails out, burning people alive for fun, and all of this other horrendous shit.

If we hadn't have nuked the fuckers we'd have seven million casualties and way more dead civilians as the Japs liked to press gang them into suicide missions.

>> No.54199786

>>54199659

Continued

of course, corruption is more complicated than open theft obviously ( although it has been shown that patterns of corruption are invariably linked, so when one kind of corruption increases all other forms begin to do so as well)

but two other forms of corruption are nepotism arraignments and partner favoritism.

I'm going to continue with the military example because its what I'm most familiar with and it's easier to handle than other forms but the basic lesson of corruption=inefficiency remains.

but back to my main point. Nepotism schemes and Partner Favoritism are both closely linked in that the represent situations where individuals or supplies are promoted/purchased because of corruption rather than merit or value.

In short, when you promote people for personal reasons you lose competance and encourage lack of information sharing ( because information is power and every is only looking out for themselves) one example that I'm thinking of is from the Iran-Iraq war where iraqi commanders would hoard information to make themselves more valuable to their superiors but the lack of sharing lead to failures on the ground.

partner favoritism is any situation where you aquire supplies through a personal arraignment rather than for quality. It's been shown in several studies on the issue ( if i can remember where they are i'll post them) that even if they supplier intends to supply quality weapons/armor/etc when the supply chain is corrupt the qualioty inevitable degrades because they aren't afraid of losing the contract over quality reasons.

This is a long ass ramble, but im tired and haven't slept. regardless i've made my point.

>> No.54199808

>>54199242
Probably 2016 numbers, wait for the next update.

>> No.54199831

>>54199218
You're actually badly overstating the effects of nuclear bombs.

Yes, you're OVERestimating how destructive a nuclear bomb is.

>mutating millions of people
You're off by more than one order of magnitude there, pal.
>scorching Earth
So is a magnifying glass on a sunny day.

The nuclear attack was not even the most destructive bombing raid of the war, you fuckwit. An atomic bomb is just a big bomb - a really big bomb. It doesn't do any more damage than a whole shitton of other bombs does.

>> No.54199908

>>54199410
you mean that's the culture the americans brainwashed them into

>> No.54199971

>>54184285

To continue my ramble because I feel like it, I would strongly suggest you look at the varieties of extinct varieties of banana. If you're specifically creating a banana republic you can't avoid the fact that those kind of specific countries were 1) propped up by outside entities and dependent on a lucrative but not diversified trade.

The amount of corruption that can be sustained in nations like that are dependent on the stability of those commodities. So if the commodity goes extinct, or decreases in value the amount of corruption that can actually be sustained changes. I'm sure you've thought about that but its good to think about.

>> No.54200010

>>54199831
>meanwhile, in New York

>> No.54200031

https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs

>> No.54200042

>>54200010
New York has had Republican governors (as recently as 2006) and NYC has had Republican mayors (de Blasio is the first Democrat since 1993).

Detroit has not had a Republican since 1962 - over fifty years exactly as that image says.

>> No.54200073

>>54199210

>High standard of living

Ha! All your food is polluted, you're increasingly likely to get shot, you lose your homes to banks when they fuck up, and all your entertainment is geared towards retards.

>democratic elections

Yeah, that voting for a blue mask or a red mask really changes the stagnant fiend that wears it. It's like you aren't even looking for the bars.

>low ranking on the world corruption index

Likely paid off by your corrupt politicians and businessmen. The US is a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than anywhere on Tatooine.

>people free to protest

Only if they pay for it, and enjoy getting brutalised by cops.

>to think the us was a totalitarian shit hole

Except that's exactly what it is. Open your eyes to the shit around you.

>> No.54200083

>>54200073
>increasingly likely to get shot
No, no, we're talking about America, not Europe.

>> No.54200085

>>54199269

That's two different people you're responding to. And yeah, you are approving of nuclear weapons. Don't try to hide those redneck colours, boy.

>> No.54200086

>>54199908
This.
The most disgusting thing I see is murrican /pol/acks telling germans how "spineless" they are and how they should "do something" when the modern state of Germany and germans is directly due to what the Allies did to germans after their victory. It is sickening.

>> No.54200102

>>54200083

>thinks "violent crimes" means "shootings"

Classic burger, can't possibly comprehend violence without an overcompensating firearm involved.

>> No.54200113

>>54199831
Yes it was DEMOCRAT RULE that destroyed Detroit.

>> No.54200164

>>54200083
>>54200102

To elaborate on that graph, in the late 1990s violent crime statistics changed in the UK to mean "any crime against the person" which is an incredibly broad definition wheras in the US and most other countries on that graph only define it ( for the purpose of this graph) as 4 kinds of crimes; murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

so crime has not been increasing in the UK like that graph shows.

>> No.54200174

>>54200031
This sort of depressing bullshit makes me wish there were more places where you could escape society entirely and go back to hunter-gathering.

>> No.54200175

>>54200102
You're still full of shit, though. You know that, right?

Source: CDC

>> No.54200186

>>54200164
Bullshit. If anything the UK underreports crime.

>> No.54200207

>>54200186


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/24/blog-posting/social-media-post-says-uk-has-far-higher-violent-c/

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-is-the-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/

>> No.54200209

>>54199472
Because last time nazi symbols ruined entire Europe and caused several genocides.

>> No.54200222

>>54200174
There you only will be eaten alive by parasites. I like to read books, so I prefer to live in society.

>> No.54200231

>>54200209
Not really, nazis did not their symbols.

>> No.54200237

>>54200207
>politifact
Don't cite sources notorious for making shit up and applying double standards to different sides.

>skeptical libertarian
I have never heard of this blog before and the name alone makes me think it's not a credible source either.

>> No.54200255

>>54200186

also, remember that I said specifically
> crime has not been increasing in the UK like that graph shows.

I was specifically referrign to the sudden spike in the lower graph for this post >>54200083
regardless of UK's crime stats for other reasons, that sudden spike specifically is the result of changing how statistics are calculated.

I'm not getting involved in this /pol/ spat in any other way other than explaining that specific spike.

>> No.54200277

>>54200237

what exactly do you think that pic proves?

and I notice you're not actually addressing the claim or the evidence rather just ignoring anything that counters your view.

>> No.54200283

>>54200255
that spike that's been trending upwards for, like, 15 years?

Yes, I'm sure that's due to a change in measured statistics in 2002.

The point is, you're not "increasingly likely" to be any kind of victim in the US - in fact our violent crime metrics have consistently gone down since 1990.

>> No.54200286

>>54200222
Your society is also being eaten alive by parasites, that seems to be a constant nomatter where you go. I'll take an itch avoided by washing and delousing over living in the tapeworm's house.

>> No.54200294

>>54200277
I could link an infowars link that agrees with me, would you take it as fact or point out that infowars is frequently full of shit?

I'm not going to take the time to exhaustively disprove every known bullshit and biased site the little sea lion chooses to link today.

>> No.54200315

>>54200283

it may very well be trending upwards or it might not, im not arguing that either way. I'm arguing that the sudden and pronounced spike shown in that specific graph doesn't prove whta you think it does, because the way the two nations calculate what violent crime even is are not meaningfully comparable in that graph. presenting it as if it was comparing the exact same thing is disingenuous. Or you know, just plain lying.

>> No.54200333

>>54198559
>"allied narrative"
And this is how you spot the LARPing Naziboo.

>> No.54200342

>>54200315
Yes, yes, I'm sure the UK is perfectly safe.

>> No.54200356

>>54200342
slightly embarassed to admit that's not actually the british one I had in that folder

and confused because it uses $ but no state actually restricts plastic knives so I have no idea where the fuck that photo is actually from

>> No.54200360

>>54200286
Good luck surving beyond the age of 40. Also no internet or any thought except the constant struggle to survive. In nature there is no kinship, no understanding, no mercy. Only the overwhelming indifference of nature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5xBtaL3YI

>> No.54200374

>>54200342

>it may very well be trending upwards or it might not, I'm not arguing that either way.

I'm sorry you can't read.

>> No.54200395

>>54200360
>Good luck surving beyond the age of 40
has this meme not died yet?

historical lifespans were not THAT much shorter - the average is thrown by high infant mortality rates.

>> No.54200415

>>54200395
This is the reason why I didn't said 25 years.

>> No.54200440

>>54184285
about as much as the USA

>> No.54200767

>>54200083
Look up how European countries measure "violent crimes". I used to think the same way. I got really defensive and thought, "the numbers don't lie", but the reality it's that they include a ton more into their definition of violent crime than we do.

>> No.54200789

>>54200083
To go further, just compare murder rates. That is a number that can't be skewed by definition. It's not even close.

>> No.54200791

>>54200767

I already pointed that out,
>>54200164


but that hardly seemed to matter. I'm glad you pointed it out too though, thanks.

>> No.54201132

>>54200175

>a title graph about firearm homicides supposedly from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Something's not adding up here, buddy.

>> No.54201151

>>54184285

Water empire

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire

As much as you want.

>> No.54201255

>>54199484
If you would prefer the germans of the old days, you have your head up your ass.
t. Other Finn

>> No.54201401

>>54200333
Winners write history. There is zero reason to assume that the Allies had any intention to give a truthful account of that war as demonizing their opponents was completely within their interest. I don't believe the propaganda of a bunch of commie enablers.

>> No.54201462

>>54201255
The old germans aided us against the Soviet scum and my great uncle served in the Finnish volunteer SS forces so I sure as hell prefer them over modern germans.
The allies are our enemies and the west is utterly poisonous to our culture and sovereignty and the future of our people. It is from the west where the disgusting taint of multiculturalism and globalism has seeped into our nation. Had Germany won the war things would be better for our people.

>> No.54201489

>>54201401
http://imgur.com/gallery/725A7

My family knows by experience that both Nazis and Communists are a plague on humanity.

>> No.54201526

>>54201462
No, we would have exterminated you afterwards, no honour between thieves.
- t.German

>> No.54201602

>>54199753
America provoked Japan, by choking trade deals.

>> No.54201629

>>54201489
>muh holocaust
Yeah, whatever. I do not care. No Finns died in such camps so I have no reason to care.

>>54201526
You krauts are the least qualified people to speak of what the nazis were given how utterly brainwashed you were by the victorious allies. You are force fed their propaganda from birth and are basically forbidden of even advocating for the preservation of your people. You cheer as you are being invaded by foreigners whose grandchildren will subjugate your's and claim your ancestral homeland as their domain. I pity you and I wish that one day, we Finns may offer refuge to the few Germans who truly still know that your forefathers fought on the side of righteousness and refused to submit to those who sought to plunder you.

Sieg Heil.

>> No.54201639

>>54199786
>>54199659
I don't think what the the West can do be categorized as corruption anymore. Its more like a systematized lawful misuse of power and misappropriations of funds.

>> No.54201665

>>54201639
t.corrupt official

>> No.54201729

>>54201629
The problem is, neo-nazi anon, my great-grandfather was jewish. So no brainwashing, only family history.

>> No.54201778

>>54201629
Hello USAnon who's 1/32th Finn.

>> No.54201785

>>54201729
>neo-nazi
National Socialist. noyt a neo-nazi, whatever that is.

And if you are a jew, why do you claim to be german? Because you are not. Your kind has a state in which to live amongst your own kind. Why do you linger instead of moving to Israel?

>> No.54201801

>>54201778
M8 I have never even been to USA. I am a native Finn.

>> No.54201823

>>54201785
>And if you are a jew, why do you claim to be german? Because you are not. Your kind has a state in which to live amongst your own kind. Why do you linger instead of moving to Israel?

You know people can hold multiple nationalities, right?

>> No.54201827

>>54201785
I am atheist.

>> No.54201852

>>54201665
Yeah like that. Its hard to stick dirt on the fucks cause they got everything covered.

>> No.54201895

>>54201823
Nationality =/= ethnicity. And ideally, nations would be ethnonations. I only recognize my fellow ethnic Finns as my kin. Non-finns will always be foreigners to me regardless of if they have Finnish citizenship. They will never be my kin no matter what and I'd gladly remove them all.

>>54201827
You are still a jew.
Multi-ethnic

>> No.54201915

>>54201895

>They will never be my kin no matter what and I'd gladly remove them all.

To where, if they have no other citizenship?

>> No.54201930

>>54201895

>And ideally, nations would be ethnonations.

Good fucking luck with that with two entire continents (Australia and America) being massive hodgepodges.

>> No.54201972

>>54201895
I don't believe, so i can't be jewish. You need to believe in God(Yahweh), to be jewish. I don't so I'm not jewish.
I'm your worst nightmare. I can speak 6 languages, I can trace my origin back to 7 nationalities.

>> No.54201994

>>54186068
imagine how long it will last when el-presidente-of-los-united-states gets automated armies that don't at all mind eliminating civilians and their families unlike soldiers who sometimes balk at being told to shoot their own parents if you haven't brainwashed them well enough.

Skynet: Working exactly as intended.

>> No.54202031

>>54201915
They can claim asylum from Sweden for all I care. They arenot Finns this they have to be removed from our land. I don't care if they have to be killed to accomplish this. Non-Finns have no value in my eyes and if securing the existence and dominion of my people over our ancestral homeland requires destruction of non-finns here, so be it.

>>54201930
Becoming such shitheap is the fate I precisely wish to avoid. I don't want my homeland to become a multicultural, multi-ethnic shithole where my grandchildren will be minorities in their ancestral homeland. I am ready to kill any number of people required to keep that disgusting future from taking shape.

>>54201972
Truly you are a disgusting mongrel, a spitting image of Kalergi's ideals. Your kind is precisely what I want to prevent my people from being bastardised into.

>> No.54202055

>>54202031

>They arenot Finns this they have to be removed from our land.

To where? If you plan to remove them from the country, you need to send them somewhere else. You can't just magically send them off into the aether.

>> No.54202059

>>54202031
I love you anon. Your prattling is adorable.

>> No.54202063

>>54201972
>I can speak 6 languages
I FUCKING HATE THE JEWISH INT STAT

>> No.54202072

>>54202031

>I don't want my homeland to become a multicultural, multi-ethnic shithole where my grandchildren will be minorities in their ancestral homeland

And what will you do when population growth makes it hard for Finland to actually hold all the Finns?

>> No.54202080

>>54202055
To hell if there is no other option. I do not want them existing in my homeland.

>> No.54202104

>>54202072
Finland is a large country full of mostly wilderness. We got room for 30 million Finns more, easy.

>> No.54202107

>>54202080

Right, so you don't have any ideas other than 'Get them out' and 'Kill them'.

This is not an encouraging plan, if you don't actually have answers to basic stuff like 'So where will you send these people'

>> No.54202124

>>54199419
Hey i never said i was american.
I'm from an unspecified central european country that is part of the 3 seas initiative.
POUTS putting his support behind us to pressure Germany is allready showing results.
Macaroni has allready surrendered to him and Germany is now surrounded again.
The EU is either going to reform or will be replaced by western socereign countries and the 3seas countries.

>> No.54202178

>>54202104

And when that runs out? People take room for the food/resources to support them, not just the space they physically live in.

>> No.54202193

>>54202107
Why should I have a more "complex" solution to a very simple problem. I reject the notion that I have to respect the "rights" of my enemies, which these people in essence are. If they do not leave willingly I have no qualms about exterminating them. My people and our benefit is the highest value to me. Anything that threatens us must be annihilated. We spent 800 years under the rule of foreign people and it was nothing but suffering for us. I will not tolerate any development that threatens to bring us back to that state, or any situation where foreigners have any say in the matters of my people. Never fucking again.

>> No.54202218

>>54202193

>or any situation where foreigners have any say in the matters of my people.

So you reject trade deals? As they generally come with 'Things you produce will following the following rules if you want us to buy them'.

>> No.54202228

>>54202178
Let the population decline and reach an equilibrium with the space our nation has. There is no need for endless population growth, though right now we could use some native population growth.

>> No.54202239

>>54201895
>Nationality =/= ethnicity. And ideally, nations would be ethnonations. I only recognize my fellow ethnic Finns as my kin. Non-finns will always be foreigners to me regardless of if they have Finnish citizenship. They will never be my kin no matter what and I'd gladly remove them all.

What if someone is religiously Jewish but ethnicity-wise Finnish? People can convert to faiths.

>> No.54202264

>>54202218
Trade deals as long as they are actually you know, deals, as in both sides benefit and maybe compromise a bit for mutual gain, are fine.
Foreigners just telling us what to do, is not fine hence I hate the EU and want it to collapse.

>> No.54202294

>>54202264

>Foreigners just telling us what to do, is not fine hence I hate the EU and want it to collapse.

You know countries have to...agree...to join the EU right? You are not just part of it by default. It's not flawless but it IS a deal.

>> No.54202312

>>54202239
I have no problem with people who just follow that faith. I have a problem with the rootless international ethnic jews that promote their tribal interests and advocate for shit that is directly undermining the whole west.

>> No.54202333

>>54202312

Ah, so you are fine with muslims as long as they are Finnish muslims?

>> No.54202340

>>54202294
I was not asked shit. I was made a member of this cancerous union without my consent and I consider that a tremendous slight against my freedom.
I will not be satisfied until my nation is torn out of this disgusting union.

>> No.54202369

>>54202333
No. Islam as a faith, utterly disgusts me and I consider any Finn who converts to that barbaric pedophile desert cult a traitor to his/her own kin and my enemy.

>> No.54202370

>>54202340
>I was not asked shit. I was made a member of this cancerous union without my consent and I consider that a tremendous slight against my freedom.

So your politicians were not consulted about this? Or do all politicians need to personally get your permission for every single deal? As I'm pretty sure you'll find at least one Finn who disagrees with you on any given subject.

>> No.54202420

>>54202370
No you dipshit. I meant that I dod not get to fucking vote on this "deal" because I was too young to vote when this shit was voted about in the 90ies. How some people treat this shit as something that should be permanent and expect me to be loyal to this union is quite insulting.

>> No.54202471

>>54202420

>No you dipshit. I meant that I dod not get to fucking vote on this "deal" because I was too young to vote when this shit was voted about in the 90ies.

Right, so any diplomatic deal you are too young to be part of isn't valid? Is the 1917 Finnish Declaration of Independence equally invalid if some Finns consider it shit because it was voted on before they lived? If you don't like it, why don't you get into politics and try to have a referendum to invoke article 50 and leave? England just did it, after all.

>> No.54202513

>>54201602
Well, considering that Japanese were tearing eastern asia better than anyone since Mantshu, it might have been somewhat reasonable, considering that Japan's warmachine was dependant on exported goods like oil.
Or did that happen before Nippon invaded China. I'm not very knowledgeable on that excact part of history

>> No.54202523

>>54202420

If you were old enough and the vote went against you, would you accept and follow your country's choice?

>> No.54202543

>>54202513

>Or did that happen before Nippon invaded China. I'm not very knowledgeable on that excact part of history

Yeah, it's not something that turns up much in most countries history of the war. Even in Australia we barely touch on it and we actually fought a fair bit in that theatre and had people in said Japanese internment camps.

>> No.54202547

>>54202369

>> No.54202554

>>54202471
>If you don't like it, why don't you get into politics and try to have a referendum to invoke article 50 and leave?
That's what I intend.

>>54202523
Not as a permanent decision for the rest of time. I will never accept EU.

>> No.54202571

>>54202547
Supporting islam is far more edgy than what I said

>> No.54202573

>>54202554
>Not as a permanent decision for the rest of time. I will never accept EU.

Would you expect other people to accept and follow it if the vote went your way? Or would you be fine with them continuing to attempt to get the country into the EU?

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