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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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52430658 No.52430658 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

How do we solve the human male fighters problem?

>> No.52430675

Can you?
Some people just like vanilla.

>> No.52430700

Call them fighting-men.

Or just play GURPS

>> No.52430704

do what tolkien did and make them completely unrelatable while making a new race of midgets more home-oriented and human because they're creatures who want to live small like actual humans do

>> No.52430741

...Well you got some wildly different answers already to the assumed issue. But I'll take a stab here... what's the problem?

>> No.52430818
File: 25 KB, 249x249, 1389878529705.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>Implying you wouldn't let human male fighters pound your boypucci to butter

>> No.52430824

I have this doubt my self too
What is usually the problem?
Im about to play my first role game and since almost nobody wanted their characters to be the same we have two mages one rougue a monk and a "paladin" (me, wanted a cleric but wasnt possible bc reasons)

>> No.52430856

Sounds like a personal problem, and also sounds like you solved it.

>> No.52430872

>The Final Solution to the Human Male Fighter Question

An invocation by Half-Elf-Half-dragon Lumigendered Archmage-rogue-spellsword-pirate-warlord Adolfus Hitlerion

>> No.52430883

>what's the problem?
OP doesn't have enough replies yet.

With your help, he can set aside his crippling loneliness for yet another cycle of consciousness!

>> No.52430886

Stop playing D&D.

What >>52430700 said. There isn't a "Fighter" class or anything like that because each weapon changes how you play.

>> No.52430943

You're still fighters
Deep down, you're all fighters
You can't run from your nature

>> No.52431049

Considering you're the only one who consistently refers to it as such, I imagine we start by removing your ability to access the internet.

>> No.52431117

What's the problem? If you want your characters to be snowflakes then do a game with premade characters.

>> No.52431157


Any beefy male character really should be replaced by a woman to make the game more fun.

>> No.52431209

>Manly badasses taller than orcs who do most of the heavy lifting and fighting and protect their culture

Yeah, your pathetic ass probably would find them unrelatable.

>> No.52431232

>Anyone I disagree with is trolling

Back to *eddit with you.

>> No.52431291

I want to live in your world where there's too many people trying to have simple, functional character concepts instead of a horde of tormented tieflings, half-elves who were spurned at birth, drow-celestial-orc-gnolls, and the one guy who wants you to read his novella of a background.

>> No.52431390


To be fair, it's best to spurn half-elves when they're young, lest they start thinking they're people or something crazy like that.

>> No.52431466

I don't know about you, but the worst character I've ever played with in that regards was a fluffy goat tiefling who was more of a giant ball of fluff and innocence than a tormented by their daemonic heritage 2edgy4u to understand their pain tiefling.

he was a pretty fun character to play with, mostly because the player managed to find a balance between to naive to live and too innocent to not adore.

>> No.52431468


Neck yourself.

>> No.52431546

I too feel the human male fighter shortage.

>> No.52431578

To the anons who say there is a problem, not everyone in this hobby wants to play an edgetastic furry fantasy that they can insert themselves into at a moments notice to masterbate about being pounded by a minotaur. Fuck off, fighters are good, your just shit.

>> No.52431602

And as always when someone posts this, we get a lot of people who're seethingly, irrationally buttmad about roleplaying games requiring roleplaying.

We started out strong with two people circlejerking about agreeing while not putting up a single argument, and then two people strawmanning by implying that everyone who doesn't play a two-dimensional caricature only plays parodic snowflakes.

Let's take it from the beginning.
The male human fighter is such a common concept because most roleplayers are mundane male humans who aren't criminals and don't possess the amount of usable skills that a rogue would. This means that the male human fighter is the closest we can get to a clear self-insert of the generic player.

But wait, you say. Aren't we talking about a role-playing game? The kind of game where you're supposed to play a character you made up, and in which metagaming is supposed to be taboo? Shouldn't that mean that the male human fighter would appear even more rarely than the snowflake machine, because it's not even roleplaying for most players?

These people are scared, you see.
Scared of being called weirdoes, scared of being outed for not understanding other people, scared of venturing outside their hugbox, scared of the very possibility that they might be expected to change even for a roleplaying game, scared of not being able to use their own life experiences to solve problems, scared of the very idea of playing someone who can do something they'll never be able to do and/or scared of putting in effort.

Rather than bother to make even the simplest character with an actual personality, they settle for what they know because they don't want to take any risks. They don't want to roleplay, they don't want to challenge themselves, they just want to sit in their hugbox and tell themselves "if I trained just a bit, I could definitely do the same as this 5th-level fighter".

>> No.52431619

It's a mix between a power fantasy and the fear of inadequacy. The person who plays Generic Human Fighter Who Looks Almost Like Me wants to feel powerful through playing a powerful character, but they don't want to play a character they can't identify completely with. They can't take the feeling of the power being taken out of their hands by playing another gender, another race (except for dwarves, which are just long-lived, cranky, beardy, short humans who look like skinnier versions of the players), a class that requires knowledge/skill or a character with another personality than themselves.
They're afraid of being called weird by their fellow nerdlings because they play a character who isn't the same kind of childish power fantasy as they play, or who has differences from themselves and actually requires roleplaying.
The Generic Male Human Fighter is a dream solution for these people. It has all the reasons that a puerile, insecure manchild would want to sit in front of other people and put in effort, if only a little - it's relatable, it's socially safe, it's easy and it's possible to imagine the character as yourself because their background is sparse and their personality is just the player's.
However, this results in a parade of the same characters over and over again, with a habit of solving problems in the player's way and handling things from the player's viewpoint. It causes group drama because the player can't divorce themselves from their character. it causes unrewarding or nonexistent roleplaying, it creates an unhealthy tie to the character because it's "them in game", it creates overly careful and metagamey gameplay, and in the end the effect is actually worse than just playing a boardgame.

>> No.52431653

There's a middle ground between "male human fighter without background or personality" and "fursona snowflake", and it's called "every kind of person or concept out there that's not a human male who hits things and only that".
There's nothing "creepy" or "weird" about playing a character who's not you in disguise - that's what roleplaying is. Create a character, detail that character, play it - every element that resembles you is a point you're not roleplaying on and thus a point where you're relying more on your own personality than your ability to tell a story, act or solve problems.
Snowflakes are bad too. They create characters who're "interesting" on the surface but have too few points to relate to, and they're mainly defined by how they don't interact properly with the setting rather than fitting into and playing off it. Because they're defined not by being interesting people and only by being special, snowflakes look interesting on the surface for some, but they end up being unrewarding and boring to play because they gain their specialness only from standing out.
People can self-insert and get spergy about it even when they're not playing a fighter - some people can imagine themselves as elves or wizards, but by far the most are most comfortable with the class they think they'd be able to do the easiest.
Get mad all you want, but I’ve been a LARP GM, played in dozens of different groups and known too many roleplayers – I know enough to say that the people who only play Generic Human Fighters tend to be defensive, insecure and irrationally protective of “themselves”, especially when they’re faced with the fact that they’re not perfect and would have to try to even get close. They’re the cheapest power fantasies out there, because even when you play a rainbow dragonwolf blackguard 22/winged disciple 12/summoner 30, you still have to at least make the effort to imagine something.

>> No.52431656
File: 666 KB, 845x1160, 47390682_by_takahiro_imai-d91dnfb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>short human
>shorter human
>gay human
>green human

>forest fighter
>urban fighter
>uptight fighter
>gay fighter

>> No.52431678

stop pretending to be alpha /pol/

>> No.52431693

>The Assassination of the Human Male Archetype by the Coward Bluehaired SJW

>> No.52431715

It's spelled "boipucci," dumbass.

>> No.52431725

I don't believe I ever said (you) were trolling.

>> No.52431755

The problem I've had is with the kind of player that presents himself at a fantasy table with his male human fighter and starts complaining about why is a AL adventure or a FR module so unrealistic. Shit son, the dude to your left can make the skies rain fire, but the tiefling rogue to your right is the problem?

>> No.52431782

That's what the combat feats are supposed to be for. Personalizing the class to a particular weapon.

It's just not good enough because no feats let you have as much effect on the world around you as a spell, and combat feats only help you be good at combat, meaning you don't have the tools at your disposal to contribute in any other manner.

In cape-fic, characters solve this problem by having better tools. Wonder woman is just a high level fighter, but she has a bunch of magic arms and armament to compensate. But in DnD, ALL the classes get magic items, especially the ones that don't need them as much because they get crafting feats easier if not even free.

As such, Fighters lag behind. The solution would be to either give them more budget, restrict the budget of other classes, or make them always have a discount.

>> No.52431787

what in fresh hell is "bwa-poochie"

>> No.52431853

This. Some of my favorite characters have been male human fighters.

I've played young, old, gay, and straight male human fighters. The trick is to just not self insert. And besides, it's not like players never self insert as wizards anyway.

>> No.52431868

So what's wrong if you as GM make characters for players? That fixes the problem and guarantees players need to roleplay instead of self-inserting.

>> No.52431910


Za Duchie comrade?

>> No.52431937

> The person who plays Generic Human Fighter Who Looks Almost Like Me wants to feel powerful through playing a powerful character, but they don't want to play a character they can't identify completely with.

I want to play Doomguy and punch and slash with swords because that appeals to me. There's no compensation involved, no insecurity involved. There are times when I just want to punch and slash, and not cast spells or shoot arrows or let bears punch for me. And you assume people just exclusively play Human Male Fighter for some reason.

Get your pop psychology masturbation bullshit the fuck out of here, that's the worst kind of posting by fucking far.

>> No.52431939

>You can't run from your nature


>> No.52431943


To be fair, sometimes they can be. But yeah, fussing unduly about wanting to make something besides yet another human when the campaign allows for it is pretty lame.

>> No.52431947



You're wrong.

>> No.52431961

Wizard is arguably easier to self-insert because they're fantasy equivalent of scientists and thus appeal average nerdy player more than a fighter would do. They're mechanically scary to new players though and I would argue half of this "human fighter" problem is actually caused by mechanics.

>> No.52431963
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Human female fighter.

>> No.52431969


>> No.52431971

Wonderwoman is actually a demigoddess.

>> No.52432079

You take the responsibility out of their hands, drain their passion for the game and pressure them so hard it's practically impossible for them to enjoy the game.
In addition, that makes the game your story and only your story, where the PCs are tuned to be only what you think is interesting or that the players need to play.
Players will have a hard time self-inserting if they're not playing their own character, yes.
But on the other hand, it makes it harder to improvise, it makes it harder to get invested in the character, they might not end up playing what they wanted to, and most importantly they don't learn on their own.
They don't learn what makes a good character.
They don't learn what their own preferences are.
They don't have any control over the style of the game or the roleplaying they want to do.
They're babysat and looked down upon by a GM who ignores the players' role in the game completely, crippling their ability to learn, try, study, research and fail on their own.
Once or twice is good, and there are even some players who like to have the GM make characters for them because it throws them a screwball. Making characters for everyone because you don't trust them to be able to make their own is incredibly condescending and takes them out of the game.

>> No.52432105


I've always liked half-elves for some reason, probably because of Baldur's Gate. They're neat without being snowflake.

>> No.52432116

If you really don't do it to compensate, you could prove it a lot better than with an angrily defensive reply. You were obviously impacted enough by what I said to make you mad, which means that you have an emotional attachment to your way of playing characters.
If you want to punch and slash, you could punch and slash as a character instead of a caricature (you yourself used Doomguy as an example, which shows that you trust more in the Internet to make characters for you than you trust in yourself to work for it).
Psychology becomes "pop" when there's no actual weight, truth or theory behind it and it becomes just pure doubletalk and buzzwords. I don't get the feeling I'm wrong when it comes to any of those in your case.
You're not making a good example, you know that? Saying nothing doesn't make you witty, it only shows that you have nothing to say, witty or not.

>> No.52432137

What problem? I almost never see human male fighters. There's a reason one of the standard jokes about fantasy RPGs (especially 3.5 and its derivatives) tends to be that PC parties tend to be populated more by things that look like variations of Zelgadis of Slayers than by anything out of Lord of the Rings.

>> No.52432138


I don't see any problem with it. I've found fighters in 5e to be consistent, heavy damage. With backgrounds and archetypes in play they can be pretty diverse in and out of combat. Out of combat it weeds away special snowflakes which is always nice.

I think one of the mistakes of games like 3e D&D and pathfinder was to give fighters a very limited set of skills to work with. They can't do much, and that limits their options for growth and to highlight interesting talents. Then you throw armor check penalties and low intelligence on top of that so they're even worse at everything. Casters get utility baked into their spells, so it's not a problem for them. Giving 3e/pathfinder fighters more options would really open up the class, though I can't see the core of those games changing at this point, only house rules.

>> No.52432152

That guy's retarded in my book for the exact opposite reason. Fighters tend to be a bit underpowered, but you can make them work, and I like scrappy underdog types. My DM tends to run meat grinders, so I end up doing a lot of lateral thinking when I can't just hit it to death, it's fun.

>> No.52432158
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Are human male fighters GOAT?

>> No.52432173


You have autism.

>> No.52432185

Because if players wanted to play someone else's character they's pick up a modern Triple A Vidya Game.

GM baked characters are fine for a one-off (especially when it takes half your newbie team two hours to make a character) but if you want your players to be engaged and willing to RP the last thing you want to do is tell them how they're going to act.

>> No.52432203

And that's the only counterargument you have.
See, you just gave a perfect example of "pop psychology" - only buzzwords and empty posturing.
It doesn't matter jack shit whether I put up more arguments than you think is "normal" to do, but whether or not you're wrong.
Thank you for at least providing a clear answer to that.

>> No.52432211

And yet gets all her powers from the suit.

Bracers of Deflection, wears a Returning chakram as a tiara, lasso with a permenant zone of truth effect, boots of flight, +5 Bodice with armored kilt, belt of strength.

Without them she's just a peak condition human with a lot of martial training.

>> No.52432217
File: 237 KB, 616x480, 1486479204646.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>A huge wall of text to imply human male fighters are somehow less creative than your dragonborn fursona with enough weasel words to keep a doughty Canadian trapper employed all year.

>> No.52432223


I'm not even reading just replying lol.

>> No.52432234

But male human fighters aren't a problem, they are solution.

>> No.52432245


I smell a furfag.

>> No.52432293

>You were obviously impacted enough by what I said to make you mad, which means that you have an emotional attachment to your way of playing characters.
>you mad

>> No.52432297

>Psychology becomes "pop" when there's no actual weight, truth or theory behind it and it becomes just pure doubletalk and buzzwords. I don't get the feeling I'm wrong when it comes to any of those in your case.

Psychology becomes "pop" when some halfwit on the internet whose never taken a class in his life decides to use what he saw on TV was "Psychology" to look smart and try to discredit someone else.

Here's a layman's psychological proposal; people like to hit things. Society does not like people hitting things. Tabletop Gaming provides you a safe area for you to pretend to hit things without real-world consequences. Some people would rather create a character that lets them hit things than someone with a complicated and troubled backstory or someone who casts complicated spells and has to remember all his DCs and dice rolls.

Freudian psychoanalysis is important for having started modern psychology, but if you really think every single aspect of human personality (...that you don't like) can be traced back to insecurities or abstract forebrain concepts you're an idiot.

>> No.52432307
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>Thinking Aragon and Boromir are badasses means you like Hitler
>Using terms intended for feral canines later proven not to actually apply to their social structure.

Fuck off faggot and go see a shrink.

>> No.52432318

Why is there no martial god-spawn class? Sorcerers exist so bloodline stuff is a thing, and it seems so common in fiction, and would fix the fighter because no more "a normal guy can't" complaint.

Like, nearly every Greek hero is a half-God with some free magic items given to him by the gods.

>> No.52432323
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Made for Human Housewives(Male)

>> No.52432335


Considering what the full-blooded elves got up to in that series, the fact that they're only half is certainly a point in their favor.

>> No.52432426

Pathfinder has Bloodragers, which mechanically are Barbarians with a small toolbox of combat-based spells.

Flavor-wise they're people who could be sorcerers but have decided to take a more martial route in their lives. They have "Bloodrage" and bloodline powers. I love the class, it adds some depth to the Fighter beyond "hit things in a different way" while still letting me solve the majority of problems with an attack roll.

The problem with having a "demigod" class that's explicitly better at fighting than the average human is that it would have to compete with the Fighter. If its better than Fighter than you've just obsoleted one of the core classes to the game. If its weaker than (or the same level as) the fighter, then how can it claim to be divinely gifted at fighting when just a mundane human picking up a sword and fighting can do better?

In order for your idea to work it has to pretty much be baked into the setting. Good news is there are systems like that out there. I know Exalted has the baseline PC power level be "blessed by the gods". I can't think of too much else, though, so you're on your own if you wanna look.

>> No.52432427
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If there were no human male fighters, my lolipire character would have no one to smug at and endlessly tease

I say there is no problem

>> No.52432452

>later proven not to actually apply to their social structure.
Completely off subject, but is this true? Haven't heard of this.

>> No.52432469

Might be bait, but fuck it

This seems less like an argument against MHF and more like an argument over bad roleplayers. MHF has plenty of roles to take

>deserting soldier
>town guardsman out for revenge after his village is razed by bandits
>crotchety old spearfisher who lives out in the wilds
>combat instructor
>drunken mercenary lout who thinks with his wallet
And so on. If you wanted to discuss behavioral trends in bad roleplayers, you could've just said so.

>> No.52432580

As I remember it turns out wolf packs are families. The 'alpha male' is actually their father.

>> No.52432582


Yes, the original studies done on wolf social structure was done on a wolf pack in captivity.

Later on, studies of wild wolf packs showed they didn't that structure. In fact a typical wolf pack is a mated pair and their children, and status is based on age.


>> No.52432858

Please tell me more about your webcomic starring a katana-wielding half-demon-half-angel with one wing of each.

>> No.52433299
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>Being this mad that the HMF got the princess and your tryhard elfbard didn't

>> No.52433350

>Get mad all you want, but I’ve been a LARP GM, played in dozens of different groups and known too many roleplayers

There's a point where it's obvious you aren't trolling and are just retarded.

>> No.52433390


This. Everyone who complains IRL about adventuring classics is some filthy, scrawny hipster with a gross beard or landwhale with wannabe anime hair.

>> No.52433400

Or maybe I want to be a human fighter because I want to be Lancelot, Roland, El Cid, Ajax, El Cid Fafhrd or Conan, which is every bit as detached from reality as you playing an elf wizard

>> No.52433423

I rewrote the sentce and forgot to erase one "El Cid"

>> No.52433447


>> No.52433476

You do not fix that is not broken

>> No.52433517


This. Wizard is THE bait for self-insertion neckbeards.

>> No.52433540


Irenicus did nothing wrong.

>> No.52433569


5e decapitated 3.5 and pissed on its corpse.

>> No.52433586
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>> No.52433620


You never gave any arguments, though, just projecting with a bare hint of purely anecdotal experience contained in a wall of fatuous text.

>> No.52433638

You sound like the kinda guy who would play a half-werewolf-half vampire trans drow multiclass made of like 6 different things.

>> No.52433643

>>combat-based spells
See the issue?

>> No.52433659



>> No.52433706

That's why I play paladins. All the fightan, and I get to preach about Freedom&Justice©

>> No.52433708

Nice autism, duder.

>> No.52433714


El Cid deserves to be there twice.

>> No.52433721

A Half-Elf Sorcerer (Orc Bloodline) 1 with the Half-Drow Paragon feat
and the Racial Heritage feat counts as a Human, Elf, Half-Elf, Orc,
Drow and one extra Humanoid race. Note that possibly this extra race
does not need to be a player choosable race. If you choose the Stone Giant race you can get access to the Earth Touched feat which lets you obtain much more spells.

>> No.52433729

>it would have to compete with the Fighter.

I'm very clearly implying upgrade/replacement. Regular fighter has no place in myths and stories. All of those fighting men have supernatural abilities afforded to them through bloodline or other cosmic shenanigans.

And don't say "but some are just basic humans" because Sorcerer has a "paragon human" style bloodline that makes you fearless and plot lucky, which is something that all those "just humans" exhibit.

>> No.52433747


Name a problem magic can solve and sufficient strength of arms cannot.

>> No.52433771
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>> No.52433781


I'm not talking about Irenicus, I'm talking about the bitch elf queen who took everything from him EXCEPT his incredible arcane power and then dumped him on the rest of the world, thinking it wasn't her fucking problem anymore.

>> No.52433786

Breathing underwater

>> No.52433832

This image always captivates me for some reason.

Wasn't there a version with blue eyes?

>> No.52433836

Her strength doesn't come from anywhere, she's naturally super strong. It's one of several gifts she received from the fucking gods after her creation from clay, so no, she's not just a regular human. She also has mid-level super speed and reaction times, which is how she can deflect machine gun fire with her bracelets in the first place. They don't magically deflect projectiles, she has to physically block stuff with them.

>> No.52433854


Save a mermaid and receive kissu from her. Alternatively, be so beast you hold your breath a long-ass time like Beowulf.

>> No.52433896

Holding your breath is a CON thing, not STR. And it still isn't breathing underwater.

>> No.52433924


Then I guess you better start frenching those fish ladies, anon.

>> No.52433945

>Why don't they just upend the current system and eradicate any option of playing a mundane person because of my feeble understanding of mythology and hateboner for normal people

>> No.52433964

I don't need to.

>> No.52433993

>*you're just shit

This is why you don't dump INT kids

>> No.52433998


>> No.52434010

They fear the silent majority.

>> No.52434019
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>> No.52434188
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>Be massive ouiaboo
>Still kind of wish that Charles V defeated Francis I, became king of France and unified Europe into a Universal Monarchy
It's a weird feel.

>> No.52434205

You mean make fighters be Batman or Iron Man.

That's about the only way to solve the problem without giving the fighters supernatural powers, is to give them a massive supernatural arsenal.

>> No.52434237


>> No.52434265


That's still part of strength-at-arms.

>> No.52434346

>would fix the fighter because no more "a normal guy can't" complaint.
This can be fixed with a couple of firm backhands to the face of whoever is complaining.

>> No.52434357 [SPOILER] 
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Eh, doesn't seem like my kind of thing.

>> No.52434410
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female human fighters are top tier

>> No.52434475

>Human Housewives(Male)
>Implying Housewives(Male) is a class
I want to know what class features it gets

>> No.52434600
File: 929 KB, 781x884, 1490237422267.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The housewife is a highly underestimated class that can create food items which grant obscene and longlasting buffs. The effects are greatest if the housewife is of the opposite gender of the one consuming the food items. Hence the correlation between the rise of female knights and the rise of housewives(male). They're basically healsluts except not sluts.


>> No.52434639
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Well deserved (You)'s, good job.

>> No.52434653


Funny, I read that just this morning.

>> No.52434686

I just want to run sword and board, is that a fucking crime?

>> No.52434700

>implying I can't defeat my nature and carve my own path

>> No.52434782

make cute human shota fighters

>> No.52434788

Have you tried paladin?

>> No.52434816

>Class based around buffing people
>Starts off weak but as they level it grows
>Skills focused more on being a camp follower/house keeper than an adventurer
>Can give a favored target a much higher buff
>Only one favored target at a time, takes a week-month worth of intimate/close emotional contact to attune to them
>Can forgo a night's rest to "attend" to their favored target to massively boost healing
>Feat called "healslut" lets them do it to nonfavored targets as well, even if the Housewife(male) is unwilling

Any other features they should have?

>> No.52434845

How do we solve the problem of people having problems with human male fighters?

>> No.52434978


I prefer Blackguard

>> No.52434987

Gas the elves, race war now

>> No.52435024
File: 382 KB, 745x757, 1483848805418.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

An exelent answer thank you for the effort in writing that

>> No.52435037

Same difference.

>> No.52435265


And then locked him out of everywhere but elfland.

>> No.52435279

Replace all Human male fighters with Human male (shota) fighters

>> No.52435293

>t. a thirsty orc

>> No.52435346


You're really sad, you know that? Did you at least take the time to change your IP?

>> No.52435389

Make weapons matter mechanically?

Like what's the point in bringing out a two-handed sword if I can't perform a shielding maneuver for my folks, what's the point in a Naginata if I can't block arrows by swirling it around? Why carry a broad, two-handed axe if it can't be decorated with heraldic symbols that clearly spell out your status and your rights to strangers?

Generally there's little to no point in openly carrying weapons that would clearly identify you as a warrior if that status doesn't come with rights.

>> No.52435448

>only a single chapter


>> No.52435462

What if:

Lvl 1: "Proper Maintenance (Ex)": A Fighter adds 1/2 her level to Craft skill checks made to create or repair weapons, bows, and armor. (minimum +1)

Lvl 3: Tools For The Job (Ex): At level 3, you may count your fighter level as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your Fighter level for your total caster level. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Magical Items created in this manner draw their magical powers directly from your own personal essence. As such, they become inert and act only as mundane items of their appropriate type when used by others this is to prevent it from becoming a party-wide buff .

You also gain Craft Wonderous Item as bonus feat.

Level 5: Modified Weapons (Ex): At 5th, the Fighter gains Craft Magical Arms and Armament as a bonus feat. He is also automatically proficient with any item that he created.

Gives them the discount in a pre-existing way that makes sense (a proper elite soldier should be able to create, modify, and repair their tools of war), and gives them their much-needed out of combat usefulness, having cheap Wonderous items on-hand and knowing about the tools of their trade, like "how long can a goblin horsechopper reach," all without effecting the core mechanic of the class.

>> No.52435771

Make the setting a place where humans have gone extinct, or never existed to begin with.

>> No.52435801

define it first

>> No.52435944

Except there are no normal people in myths. They all do supernatural things that normal people cannot, either they have special powers directly, usually through genes or divine blessing/curse, or else they just have protagonist bullshit luck/destiny, which is still a supernatural effect that normal, mundanes do not have.

>> No.52435960

Name an example.

>> No.52435968

Make other races's racials worth a damn.

>> No.52435978

Create Demiplane

>> No.52435997

Handling an invulnerable opponent

>> No.52436029

Get girls to step up their wife game and stop making men resort to fantasy escapism?

>> No.52436041

>or else they just have protagonist bullshit luck/destiny, which is still a supernatural effect that normal, mundanes do not have.
Well alright then, fighters come with protagonist luck/destiny. Problem solved, you can get your retarded screeching out of here

>> No.52436051

How about Immortality?

Honestly, mundane is about working within the laws of nature while magic is about cheating and getting to change or ignore the rules.

So anything that actively breaks natural laws.

>> No.52436070

It's an ongoing manga. Wait until next month or so.

>> No.52436082


They keep marrying demihumans and monsters.

>> No.52436253

Perfectly fine with that solution, Dresden Files RPG uses the same solution.

Feel like brainstorming the exact details? We talking a daily refilling pool of hero points? Grit point system? An Inspiration system? Conditional rerolls?

>> No.52436477

bring them to light of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ

>> No.52436525
File: 146 KB, 500x428, 1490660198397.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Why can't I just like the way Battle Master works, and how Vairant Human lets me pick stat bonuses?

>> No.52436577

I like Battle Master, but it doesn't go far enough.
Needs more maneuvers, needs more dice, in my opinion. I know the reduction was probably done for simplicity, but I still feel like it's not enough.

>> No.52436660

Well, Anima Beyond Fantasy has pretty neat melee fight rules, so fighters aren't exactly useless. Hell, one of our main DPS was a pure fighter and the most magical thing he had was an artifact sword i made him.

>> No.52436674

That's fine, I'm sure we'll still see weird parties full of misfits, since WotC is still producing weird races and classes and shit.

Also Pathfinder remains one of the most popular RPGs on the market.

>> No.52436677
File: 48 KB, 176x389, Hank_Hill.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>what in fresh hell is "bwa-poochie"

>> No.52437013

People who are self-inserting never pick fighters.

It's always some flavor of caster, because for most people, the idea of physically pushing themselves to and beyond their limits is foreign and uncomfortable, and most people can't seem to imagine the idea of someone surpassing "peak human" (a nebulous concept that seems to vary wildly but is never much more than what is expected of a man of medium build and musculature) without supernatural aid, even in settings where humans are far superior to IRL ones. Compare that to casters, where you can command peerless power just by studying a lot, praying really hard and reading a holy book, or communing with nature like the hippiest hippy who ever hipped, and it's clear which is more relatable to the average tabletop player, especially in D&D, where you're already pouring over massive books and memorizing detailed information about meaningless minutiae just to be able to play.

>> No.52437061

Is there one?

>> No.52437366

What would they do?

Also, most combat only lasts 4 turns. That's a dice per turn, how much more often are you hoping for?

>> No.52437612

>It's always some flavor of caster, because for most people, the idea of physically pushing themselves to and beyond their limits is foreign and uncomfortable, and most people can't seem to imagine the idea of someone surpassing "peak human" (a nebulous concept that seems to vary wildly but is never much more than what is expected of a man of medium build and musculature) without supernatural aid, even in settings where humans are far superior to IRL ones.
That's generally because magic is already a concept that's supposed to allow otherwise mundane races throughout the to exceed the boundaries of mortal prowess yet we associate "martial" with "mundane" and "mundane" with "weaker than magic," when we should be associating "martial" with "mage who uses PHYS stats instead of MNTL stats."

It's a weird cognitive dissonance because martials already use magic in some capacity but we don't recognize it because it disproves "martial=mundane=weaker than magic"

>> No.52437646

>Also, most combat only lasts 4 turns.
That's part of the problem
>That's a dice per turn,
If you get a short rest immediately afterwards, which is sketchy as fuck in most situations because it's an *hour* of uninterrupted rest in a most likely hostile environment, and if you don't have to blow more than one per round due to an emergency.
>how much more often are you hoping for
They used to refresh EVERY. SINGLE. ROUND. in the playtest and every martial got them. If we go back further than that, 4E short rests were 5 minutes long and got you all of your encounter powers back. Further than that, Warblades recovered all of their maneuvers with a single swift action and one round of attacks.

>> No.52437705

Besides the fact that it would only cover maybe one encounter before you're in need of a short or long rest?

By comparison, the mage in the party will have over a dozen spell slots (not including cantrips) by the time the Fighter has five maneuvers and five superiority dice.

>> No.52437879


But weapons do have mechanical differences.

>block arrows by swirling it around


>heraldic symbols

Not mechanical

>Generally there's little to no point in openly carrying weapons that would clearly identify you as a warrior if that status doesn't come with rights.

What the fuck are you even saying?

>> No.52437907


They're Fighters. Fuck your little niche system and its gay little mechanics written by fags.

Also, you cocksucking autist, here's a mundane hero for you. Robin fucking Hood.

>> No.52437922

Innate magic you mean? Like why you can heal from mortal wounds overnight in dnd?

>> No.52437940

Leomund's tiny hut is a 3rd level ritual. Buy it and you will never have an interrupted rest ever again.

>> No.52437950


That's a spell, but for the sake of argument, reshape the world via conquest, bully gods into compliance, who needs a demiplane when you can have the full-sized version?


Drown him. Any other definition of "invulnerable" would negate a magical solution too.


Live forever as a legend and through the dozens of children you had with that NEET wizard's waifu because you're a real man and he's a cuck.

>> No.52437967

Robin hood fought other mundanes, no need to equalize. also was a dex rogue.

>> No.52437994

See, imprisonment the spell solves the invulnerable problem perfectly. One of the best ways to defeat the tarrasque.

Punching it harder less so.

>> No.52438018


Pathfinder is shit and 5e is in the process of decapitating it and pissing on its corpse for anyone who doesn't NEED the Furry Tome of Furfaggotry supplement to achieve immersion.

>> No.52438025

It doesn't help that the moment anything comes out where martials are inherently magical in nature, use active abilities with descriptions more complex than 'swing sword in particular way', or augment their abilities through anything other than more gear, the autists flood out of the woodwork with "Oh, that's not a real fighter, that's a gish", or start chanting "Weeaboo Fightan Magic" like it's a prayer against their martial characters being corrupted by the horrors of actually mattering in combat.

>> No.52438027

Play a system where human fighter is the norm and magic is restricted to artifacts, and you start to see people make more diverse characters because they have to in order to justify being part of the party.

>> No.52438053

Wolf packs don't have "alphas" but some other animals do, like gorillas.

>> No.52438067


Seems to be taking its time, then.

>> No.52438094

The fact this is getting so many replies shows it hits close and hits hard.

>> No.52438121


Or that many people disagree with it?

>> No.52438143

The fact that this is getting so many replies demonstrates that we're still on /tg/.

>> No.52438154

>If you respond I'm right.
>If you don't respond I'm right.

>> No.52438165

>But weapons do have mechanical differences.
Not really.

Like you can't make an attack roll with a bearded axe and grapple an opponent's arm away so that you can both relieve him of his shield arm and set yourself up for advantage on your next blow.

Knives don't have an inherent bonus towards being able to hit vitals more effectively than, say, a longsword or something even though you have more control over where it goes and all you need is like 6 inches to pierce the heart or something.

Hell, you can't even deal Bludgeoning damage with a longsword even though half-swording exists and would fit the theme of blades being more versatile than most weapons.

Even shields are only referenced as a free bonus to your overall AC even though they were used as bludgeoning weapons during combat often.

The game may have "abilities" like "versatile" or "ranged" but rarely do these actually factor into actual combat beyond "roll XdY+Z damage if you hit with this weapon."

>> No.52438195
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Every time you use this word, you sound like the biggest otherkin WoD-playing queer. Just say "martials", and because caster supremacy doesn't exist in myth where you DO have shitloads of regular joes winning all the time (remember the Illiad? Remember the only demigod there getting BTFO by a prettyboy with high Charisma and a bow?) which you don't acknowledge because the idea of effort paying off without outside help hurts you because you're a pathetic little manchild? Remember that shit? There's no need to "equalize" because in myth casters mostly exist as a distant antagonist or waifu character, it's all about the martials, all the time.

>also was a dex rogue

Are rogues magical heroes now, moron? No. For that matter, whether he was a Dex Fighter specialized in Archery with the Criminal background or a dex Rogue (doubtful because his main focus was on archery and his main prowess as a thief was face-to-face banditry rather than picking locks and burgling) he was still 100% a regular guy. So were most Knights of the Round Table, who DID fight magicians and dragons and shit, barring that faggot French insert johnny-come-lately Lancelot who was an emo fuccboi that had God helping him. For that matter, speaking of frogs, FUCKING ROLAND.

You know nothing about mythology, and just hearing you talk about it I can picture how nasally and obnoxious you are, thinking you have any goddamn idea about anything when you've clearly never opened a book that wasn't manga in your fucking life. Kill yourself you stupid fucking newfag.

>> No.52438236


It's getting so many replies because it begins with a false premise based on shaky armchair psychology, then overextends said false premise as apologia for the kind of special snowflake autism that tends to kill off games soon after character creation.

It's either excessively detailed bait or the work of someone who doesn't get to play tabletops because they run off every group they join.

>> No.52438255


Or that it's stupid, you're stupid, and it's more fun to respond seriously to stupid posts than just dismiss you as a troll when you're clearly an autist instead?

>> No.52438263

That, along with the fact that you have classes like Ranger, Paladin, and Monk who already utilize spells or magical abilities during combat. Not to mention their reliance on magic items to keep up against most creatures. Don't even get me started on shit like the 5e Barbarian being able to rage so hard that they gain a fly speed.

Hell, if the fact that most martials can get anywhere from a 16-20 at level one, when most peasants can't even manage anything higher than a 10 across the board, can also be a testament to their innate magical prowess, like how mages test to have a 16-20 in their casting stat at level 1 as well.

>> No.52438274

>dozens of groups

This taken together is a huge red flag for obvious reasons and says a lot about you.

>> No.52438307

>the only demigod

The Iliad was chock full of demigods. A better example would be Diomedes kicking Ares' ass.

Also the problem with using myths and fantasy fiction as a basis for what D&D characters should be capable of is that D&D characters are (usually) capable of doing that kind of shit at relatively low levels (going on the an Achilles style killing spree isn't that impressive for a fighter all told) and so people calibrate their expectations wrong, then limit mundane characters by these wrong calibrations.

>> No.52438338

>played in dozens of different groups
And about how long did each individual group last?

I can't see many groups staying together very long with a LARP GM that wants his players to have fursonas.

>> No.52438346

Not all martials are mundane though. For instance Barbarians get stuff from nature magic. They don't spell cast, but if invoking a bird totem spirit to fly isn't supernatural I don't know what is.

>> No.52438374
File: 168 KB, 542x520, 1461813100054.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Like you can't make an attack roll with a bearded axe and grapple an opponent's arm

Battlemaster Fighter, the same as you could wrap his weapon with a flail or catch the grip with the fluke of your halberd and yank it out of his hand.

>Knives don't have an inherent bonus towards being able to hit vitals more effectively than, say, a longsword or something even though you have more control over where it goes and all you need is like 6 inches to pierce the heart or something.

Reach compensates for the ease of controlling a small blade. Your argument remains nonsensical.

>Hell, you can't even deal Bludgeoning damage with a longsword even though half-swording exists and would fit the theme of blades being more versatile than most weapons.

You're thinking of a different meme technique from particular arms manuals. Half-swording is when you grab the sword midway along its length and use it like a short spear or prybar. You want to take an attack penalty to deal Bludgeoning, most reasonable DMs will let you. If your DM is an autist, why are you playing with them?

>Even shields are only referenced as a free bonus to your overall AC even though they were used as bludgeoning weapons during combat often.

99% of the time they're used to stop people hitting you with things. That's what they're for. That's why "shield" means "to block" as a verb. Plus, DnD has had a lot more material for shield-bashing over the years than, frankly, it merited, turning it into a poor man's version of dual-wielding. It's a relief to see 5e's shieldmasters focusing more on blocking things, which is the job of dudes with shields.

>The game may have "abilities" like "versatile" or "ranged" but rarely do these actually factor into actual combat beyond "roll XdY+Z damage if you hit with this weapon."

Those aren't abilities and the fact that you think a weapon being ranged or having reach shows you're a retarded autist

>> No.52438381

No but this thread isn't about fixing rogues, because rogues aren't as consistently screwed over. In Pathfinder they got Unchained, in 5th they got cunning action and easier to trigger sneak attack, it's Fighter who has the problem.
They solve the power disparity by fighting dirty.

>> No.52438412
File: 50 KB, 625x352, jackfeat[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Fly? No. Jump good.

>> No.52438445


5e Fighters are much better than 5e Rogues at fighting. Have you ever played in even a single game in your life? Tell you what, get your phone, take a timestamped picture of one of your character sheets, and I will eat a bug. You consistently are engaging in nonsense that shows not a scrap of experience or knowledge in this hobby, and I'm putting an end to it.

>> No.52438522


I'm confused here. What the fuck do you want for martials, exactly? I can't tell if you're trying to claim caster supremacy should be a rule or what.


My personal theory is he was that fat, neckbeard older guy every LARP has whose character has been around for long enough to have the most broken bullshit and act like King Shit in the one place he has any power. He tries to hit on some nerdette, and instead she ends up fucking the remotely athletic dude who came along and played a low-effort Fighter and probably whacked the poster too hard with a boffer sword, leaving him feeling eternally cucked and mad. Honestly, I figure "dozens of groups" is hyperbole to cover the fact nobody wants to play with him anymore.

>> No.52438549


Not him, but you're missing a few words in that last part. I assume you mean to say that claiming reach or range or other weapon properties doesn't matter is retarded, because it is, there's a massive tactical difference between 1d8 that has limited shots but hits at 30' versus 2d6 that only hits adjacent.

>> No.52438606

too bad 5e is garbage as well

>> No.52438612

10/10 reference, but you know there are supernatural abilities on nearly every martial, as was mentioned by this guy. >>52438263
Heck, even Rogues get a bunch of magic rogue tricks to choose from if they want in Pathfinder. PATHFINDER, the screw martial edition.

It's only Fighter that insists on being a mundane martial: a normal, unaided, albeit well-trained man in a world of magic monsters. The only guy dumb enough to play by the rules when everybody else is busy changing them to fit their needs.
It's no wonder they fall behind. They're running on foot in a bike race.

>> No.52438653

I'm claiming that fighters are stupid to insist on being mundane when not even the other martials are mundane.

Why is it so bloody inconceivable that they get supernatural abilities when literally every other class already has them?

>> No.52438744

The fundamental problem of 5e (and, really, D&D) isn't that martial characters don't do enough, it's that the sheer versatility of magic (and the fact that said versatility increases any time another spell is put out) creates consistency problems in most settings.
>Resurrection just being a thing people can do if they have diamond dust
>Teleportation circles and teleportation in general
>Mind reading not being literally the first thing any judge does

>> No.52438791



>> No.52438817


No it isn't, one's eeeeeeeeevil

>> No.52438843

That's the entire point of the fighter! The one guy who doesn't have any magical powers, no tricks up his sleeve, he just hits things.

Yes, wizards are better than fighters. They're also better than Barbarians and Paladins and Rogues. Magic is more powerful.

A fighter who gets supernatural abilities isn't a fighter any more. They're a paladin, or an eldritch knight, or whatever. Yes, Fighters aren't supernatural. That's the entire god damn point.

>> No.52438958
File: 101 KB, 430x398, IncorrectLiving.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>The entire point is that one particular class is shit and you're making a poor decision if you choose it.

>> No.52439006

And? Why is this your problem.

>> No.52439103

I don't know what system you're using but I'm familiar with 3.Pathfinder. All martial classes are shit and a poor decision if you wanna fucking minmax it.

You seem to be trying to make two points here. One, that flavorfuly Fighter is the only class without some supernatural element. (I personally disaggree, but whatever)
And two, that Fighter is a bad class.

And yes, a fighter is ultimately going to have less an effect in combat than a Wizard past level 4. But so is a Barbarian. And a Rogue. And a Monk. But you're not giving a shit about those.

You may also be trying to say that Fighters are worse than Monks, Rogues, and Barbarians? Maybe? Which is straight up wrong. Monks are a jumbled fucking mess, and Rogues can't do shit for shit. Barbarians are strong, but with weapon bonuses and combat feats out the wazoo a Fighter will be able to outperform it easy.

Of course you're gonna keep screaming to the hilltops your absolute hatred for the Fighter class and insist that wanting to play as a normal human being who picks up a sword and goes to slay evil is ABSOLUTELY HARAM AND OBJECTIVELY WRONG because you are genuinely damaged in the head.

>> No.52439163

>Why is is it a problem that a game isn't balanced
I'm going to level with you here. On a fundamental level, it's not technically a problem, but the fact that two classes are implicitly presented as equals is lazy at best and deceptive at worst.
>But people should choose classes that work the best
And game designers should do the best they can to balance a system so that options presented as equal in value are generally close to equal. Putting the blame on a player for not being able to keep up in a game that should have been balanced is like blaming a user for breaking a program in a way that should have been foolproofed against. Yes, you're technically correct, but you also show that you didn't want to put in the work to look for and fix design problems.
I'm not the guy you replied to, and I don't think Fighters should be limited to non-magic resources. But citing player skill as a reason to not balance the game (Ivory Tower Design) doesn't pass muster.

>> No.52439176

Let me indulge in your fantasy. Fighter gets a revamp, now it's Demigod. The Fighter Class is scoured from every rulebook in existence.

Someone walks up to their new DM and says "I want to play as a normal person wielding a sword."

"I'm sorry, you can't do that. You can be a Demigod though!"

"I don't want to be a demigod, I just want to be a normal person!"

"Well there is no class for a dude with a sword."

"Why not?"

"Because in ancient mythology there weren't any non-gifted people who fought. They were all Demigods. Every single one of them."

"What does that have to do with Dungeons and Dragons?"

"I don't know, but you can't play as a normal dude with a sword."

"That's fucking retarded."

>> No.52439229

>everyone must pick their roleplaying game class based solely on damage output
>not because it would be fun to roleplay
>building a character that is not configured for optimal combat effectiveness is a "poor decision"
I bet you're a riot at the table. You might as well be playing an MMO with strangers by this point.

>> No.52439238

What even is your central argument? Like, what explicitly do you want to happen? Please, enlighten us. Tell us the exact thing you want to change, without any vague statements, and why. Because assuming you're just one dude who has this vaguely defined problem with mundane fighters you have been so all over the place I can't fathom how you could possibly have a fully functional mind.

Do you want to erase the choice of playing as a mundane human?

Do you want Martial classes to be the same power level as spellcasters?

Do you just hate people deciding to be fighters?

Speak clearly and concisely about your problem.

>> No.52439268

Amazingly, that would block you from playing a ton of fantasy heroes and mythological figures too.

>> No.52439326

Except they're bringing a knife to a gunfight, it shows because they suck at everything, and it doesn't jive with the lore. No well-trained mindful soldier isn't going to even those odds somehow, whether that be learing some kind of anti-magic, or learning to craft an arsenal of equivalently useful magical Items and weapons, get body augments, use alternative tactics, or SOME THINGS. LITERALLY ANYTHING.
In a war you don't go "Oops, looks like they've got me outgunned. Guess i'll just leave things that way."

>> No.52439330

I'm sorry, but according to >>52435944 there are zero normal people in myths. And if you bring up a counterexample I'll just claim that being the protagonist of a story counts as being magical. Somehow.

>> No.52439336

Play a Commoner with weapons training ya dumb cunt. Fighters train themselves beyond the human limit.

>> No.52439358

If a human fighter can attain it, how can it be considered beyond the human limit?

>> No.52439387


Yeah, I am.

>> No.52439401

Because humans in D&D, like every other race, are intrinsically supernatural, the only natural races are aboleths.
Like everybody else, humans are formed from the elemental chaos, shaped by gods, and given will. Which god exactly made humans is forgotten (but might be Zarus) but they still arose, considering aboleths remember exactly when they arose.
The first things in realspace were aboleths, followed by gods. Gods made everything else.
There is no option to not be supernatural, but humans from the real world would never make it past level 5 in D&D.

>> No.52439404

It's below Adept on the tier list. An npc class.

>> No.52439406

If DnD settings followed the power levels of the game war and combat would be all Wizards, all the time. They are better than literally any class. A single high level wizard can neutralize an entire army and summon a legion of infernal minions to slay them all.

Withing the setting, the idea is that a mortal human with a sword CAN feasibly go hand-to-hand with Wizards, Clerics, and the likes.

But honestly, you are yet to counter my point here (>>52439176) and never will. Some people (gasp!) WANT TO PLAY MUNDANE NONMAGICAL PEOPLE





>> No.52439435

Play Commoner and don't ascend past level 5, then.

>> No.52439440

As previously stated, doesn't have to be demigod. Just the same kind of cosmic shenanigans that give sorcerers power. Some from blood, some from gods, some from curses, some from fate.

Link, for instance. Half-elf Fighter with a lot of magic items and a Fate/Destiny origin for his supernatural prowess.

>> No.52439454

Essentially everyone in D&D has a tiny bit of dragonblood in them, this is why all PCs can become sorcerers

>> No.52439460

>What even is your central argument? Like, what explicitly do you want to happen? Please, enlighten us. Tell us the exact thing you want to change, without any vague statements, and why. Because assuming you're just one dude who has this vaguely defined problem with mundane fighters you have been so all over the place I can't fathom how you could possibly have a fully functional mind.
Alright, let me try to explain.
D&D's problem is that it tries to do everything and only moderately succeeds at anything. It tries to accommodate the 'truly mundane' and reality-altering magic in the same breath, presents them as equals, and pretends that there's nothing wrong with such an approach, when this obviously isn't the case.
If it was going to be a low-power game, it should have stuck with magical powers being limited severely in scope and magnitude. If it was going to be a high-power game, it should have presented human fighters with supernatural accuracy and strength. Instead, it tries to do both, and that creates dissonance because it's attempting to make fighters on par with worldbreakers while still being 'mundane'. It's trying to present Conan as the same 'class' as He-Man, and gets surprised when people start scratching their heads as to how that's supposed to work, exactly.
If that sounds confusing, it is. I want Dungeons and Dragons to pick a lane and stay in it, or at least provide options for multiple power levels instead of mixing them into a salad and expecting DMs to pick what they want out of it.

>> No.52439501

He doesn't really have anything supernatural besides being very good at using his weapons, which... fighters have. Link's a very mundane hero outside of Twilight Princess, where a magic item was embedded in his hand without him knowing.

>> No.52439510


"DM DM, I want to play a mundane person with a sword!"

"No! You have to have a supernatural origin for your strength!"

"But why?"


"What if I don't want to?"

"Then you have to play an NPC class."

"What's an NPC class?"

"They're classes with no class features and are explicitly designed not to be playable."

"But why?"


"I thought this was a game where I could be who I wanted to in a fantasy world?"


>> No.52439519

>I'll just claim that being the protagonist of a story counts as being magical. Somehow.

Coincidence always favoring someone and is definitely a magical ability guy. They don't have to be a protagonist to have it, but a lot, a LOT of allegedly nonmagical martials have this effect going for them.

Somehow just happening to have the thing they need, or survive that fall, or accidentally guess the bad guy's weakness, or... This is not normal people luck. Not this often, not this reliably.

>> No.52439522

You seem to be under a serious misapprehension.

Low level fighters, in my opinion should still be normal (if more skilled than average) people with swords. But it's unquestionably bad design to have progression where some classes go from dudes with books to demigods at high levels and other classes begin and end as dudes with swords.

It puts the burden on the DM, to allow everyone in the party to have fun and be relevant despite a mixed martial and caster party having some characters that are fundamentally superior to the others in every way, at every level.

That is why the argument primarily is about the Fighter. Most of the other Martial classes have roles that they can play in the party even if the party CoDzilla is trivializing every encounter. The Fighter's role is in the name. He fights, and generally not much else. This wouldn't be a problem, every party needs someone who can smash faces, but a fighter is worse at it than pretty much every other class.

There is nothing wrong with prioritizing roleplay over rollplay, but no party wants to carry someone who is a malus to the team. That just results in xp being split among more people and encounters being harder with nothing to make up for it.

>> No.52439535

Would be Warrior. Fighter without the extra feats or class abilities.

>> No.52439568

He casts spells in any game with a magic meter, but ignoring that he has superhuman strength and agility, not to mention chosen one syndrome.

>> No.52439578

You read a lot of shitty fantasy, even most of the old myths weren't that convenient for the heroes.

>> No.52439587

>"I thought this was a game where I could be who I wanted to in a fantasy world?"
"Well why are you being contrarian? Do you want to be mundane in a fantasy world, and therefore useless, or do you want to be fantastic? Make up your mind!"

>> No.52439589

Favorable probability=/=magic

By this logic many if the most historically significant people to have ever existed were fucking magic. You have to be trolling to believe this shit.

>> No.52439603

His superhuman strength comes from magic items (again except in Twilight Princess) and his magic spells also always come in the form of magic items. His agility is good but not supernatural, and being the Chosen One literally just gives him the right to wield certain Very Magic Items after he has to prove himself. Link is the most equipment-based fantasy hero around.

>> No.52439610

Warriors still get solid levels of HP as they go up, and abnormally high fortitude saves.

>> No.52439621

If you actually do want to be an unremarkable martially trained scmuck with a sword, then Warrior actually is the way to go.

Fighters, though outmatched by the magic world around them that they refuse to play ball with, are still remarkable by peasant standard.

And I'm saying if you want to be a hero, then be a hero. If you want to be some random guy be some random guy. But don't take a hero class and insist on it staying tethered to the abilities of random guy.

>> No.52439642

Guy can knock the door-sized shield out of an ogre's hand with a twig. He's freakishly strong even before he gets the gloves.

>> No.52439654

Saves and hp aren't feats or abilities are they now?
I stand by my appraisal.

>> No.52439668

They do get to be superhuman when you can run on lava or fall from orbit and survive.

>> No.52439714

Oh yeah, speaking of which, Link can fall into bottomless abysses, fall in lava and not immediately crumble to cinders, drown, etc. and magically get whisked back to safety.

>> No.52439719

Alright, that's an approachable statement.

D&D is a Fantasy in both meanings of the word. It is of course the genre of fiction characterized by magic and mysticism, but it is also a fantasy; a breach from reality to live out an idealized world. It is a toolbox for creating the perfect realm for you and your buddies to have fun in.

And part of that realm, that second kind of fantasy, is saying that "yes, a normal human being who's good with a sword CAN duke it out with reality warpers " even if logically the wizard would win every time.

And most people who follow D&D accept and enjoy that fantasy. It's a fun one, like watching Batman take on genuine supervillains, or seeing Bruce Willis start out as an unarmed man in a skyscraper and taking out an entire terrorist organization.

You, however, do not drink this koolaid. To you it is obvious that a mundane human and an epic sorcerer could NEVER be on even ground. This makes D&D problematic in your eyes, while everyone else is scratching their heads over what you're even trying to say.

Some people want to play "A man who, despite lacking magical power or any sort of divine influence, is powerful and skilled enough to fight against magic users and giant monsters." and everything you're positing simply does not allow that. That is their fantasy. I think it's wrong to tell them they can't have it.

>> No.52439754

Show me a Warrior build capable of this with no supernatural influences, and I will accept this as part of the innate magic in dnd universe lifeforms mentioned >>52437922

>> No.52439797

That's just the game slightly retconning things, not Link magically surviving lava. Mario isn't forming a new body at the beginning of the stage whenever he gets hit in Mini Mario mode.

>> No.52439879

Level 20 warrior with 10 CON and no feats can survive a fall from orbit, by merit of d8 hit dice.
(4.5*19+8, averaging 93.5, rounding down to) 93 HP vs. 20d6 falling damage, averaging 70.
Falling damage caps at 20d6 thus any arbitrary height. Dropping from low orbit and walking away just fine is entirely possible. Adding higher CON and feats makes it even easier.

Lava deals a mere 2d6 per round you're in contact, so a warrior can run across it for average of 13 rounds (78 seconds) before succumbing. Being immersed in lava, as in dunked head to toe, deals 20d6.. and we've already covered that value.
Though, they would need to be immediately extinguished or die from burning over the next 1d3 rounds.

>> No.52439894

>why don't you understand what I'm saying
>why don't you care about my opinion?
>why am I the only smart one?
>why can't I hold all this self centered stupidity?

The entire point is allowing GMs to pick what they want out of it. The only games that have survived this loong aren't the specialized, totally perfected systems, which includes 4e. If it's not capable of being adjusted by the GM in some manner, often, and with new content, regardless of balance and idealization of people like yourselves, it dies out because it gets boring.

>> No.52439905
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Okay, I get what you're saying, but this ideal of a fighter that can fight monsters without any sort of supernatural aid IS NOT SUPPORTED by the mechanics, which is part of my problem.
Part of the problem is that people differ in how they react to pic related. I prefer settings and systems that remain consistent within themselves, even though I suspend my disbelief for certain shows and games. It grates on me as a DM when I can't write a scenario that holds up to the question "Well, why don't we just resurrect the NPC?", and I suspect it grates on people who try to play mundane fighters when they can't do that while remaining effective.
I think that mechanics should support the setting they're supposed to be used for. If that means the mundane fighter gets loads and loads of skills, like how Marvel Heroic Roleplaying represents Black Panther's skills and planning as dice and SFX, so be it. I just don't think D&D does this very well.

>> No.52439958

That's more an issue with unrealistic falling damage and lava damage than anything about the fighter.

>> No.52439975

>Okay, I get what you're saying, but this ideal of a fighter that can fight monsters without any sort of supernatural aid IS NOT SUPPORTED by the mechanics
It totally is though? Hell, even the magical parts of the other martials, Barbarians and Rogues, only come into effect at particularly high levels. A central tenet of D&D is that anything dies if you hurt it.

>> No.52439995

Why is that? your average, mundane human has 4 HP. Falling from a mere 11 feet up can cause an ordinary man to break his neck.
2d6 fire damage would kill any but the most hardy, and that's touching lava for a single round. 20d6 wouldn't even leave scorched bones to recover.

>> No.52440055


>>52439719 here

You're attacking the Fighter class specifically when pretty much all martial classes are equally inferior to the almighty spellcaster.

The Caster>Martial issue is a whole nother thing than what this thread has been seemingly about. What it looks like is you attacking the fighter for DARING to be a mundane human in a fantasy world, which... is something I take issue with.

I've accepted that a well made spellcaster is going to be infinitely more useful in a fight than any martial class could ever be. I have honestly never really run into any actual issues with this; the players don't mind, and the Wizard is greatly helped by someone with triple his health and AC wading in and stabbing the stunned, slowed, trapped enemies. A high level fighter is still capable of surviving a fall from orbit and decapitating an adult dragon in one blow. That's a satisfying fantasy.

Any system that makes a sword wielder on the same level as a wand wielder is going to have to limit the wizard a hell of a lot, give the fighter what amounts to a bunch of magic tricks, or some combination of both. And I don't really like any of those options.

>> No.52440117

>I think it's wrong to tell them they can't have it.
You know what's more wrong? Taking a class that has been from the *very fucking beginning* meant to model characters like Hercules and Gilgamesh and shitting it up for 'realism' in a game that was never once meant to be realistic, then screeching autistically when the class inevitably gets replaced by a class that isn't shit. I flat out don't want someone who is going to throw a bitch fit when I say "okay, no Fighters, Warblades only instead" in any game I will ever play or run.

>> No.52440136

>are equally inferior to the almighty spellcaster.
This may be a surprise to you, but there are spellcasters in 3.5 that aren't no-lube game rapers. Unsurprisingly, they're not the ones that don't make the martials that don't suck cry themselves to sleep at night.

>> No.52440146


>> No.52440158

*they're the ones that don't

>> No.52440216

My autism for trying to get a fantasy world's consistency to my liking is probably getting the better of me, so I'm going to bow out of this. Maybe someday I'll believe that nobody pumps the tires, but it's probably for the best that people disagree on these things so we get all sorts of fantasy out of it.

>> No.52440292

Fair enough. Best of luck on your future endeavors.

Also there are apparently two people here who are against Fighters when I thought there was only one. One, >>52440216 , is a reasonable dude who I disagree with. The other, >>52440117 , is a raging sperglord who is physically incapable of a rational conversation.

>> No.52440298

>Example Fighters: Gilgamesh, El Cid, Hercules
>hurr durr I want Fighters to do nothing special and just swing sword
>wizards? give them the powers of 500 different mythological wizards all at the same time

>> No.52440379

I'm not incapable of a rational conversation, I'm tired of you fuckers ruining games I was interested in.

>> No.52440383

Huh. Guess this board never really got better at biting the martial vs caster bait huh.

>> No.52440455



>> No.52440468
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Oh man you sure showed him

>> No.52440494
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>> No.52440539

>Book says your fighter could be anyone you want

>> No.52440572

You can have them at low levels.

>> No.52440612

Wizards: more powerful than most gods by level 5
Fighters: less killing power than a conscript with a dull spear

>> No.52440695

>All D&D is 3.5

How does this fallacy still exist?

>> No.52440696

>book says your Fighter can be anyone you want
>including Hercules
>repeat until the developers make the game so that it doesn't even support the thing it says it does

>> No.52440750

>Wizards: more powerful than most gods by level 5
What the fuck edition are you playing that level 5 wizards are so powerful?

>> No.52440774
File: 95 KB, 600x815, 1489478918477.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

There's nothing wrong with Human Fighters as a concept; there's just a preconceived notion that someone who makes a mundane martial character is making a boring or empty character. This couldn't be further from the truth. Just as well, playing monstrous races/demihumans or strange background/class combinations isn't indicative of an exciting or interesting character.

A good or bad character in a RPG is determined by how they are role played during the game. Some guy with a sword going on a quest for this that or the other isn't going to be any better or worse than some bizarre otherworldly character with a tragic backstory if the player can't get into the right mindset for role playing that character in an interesting and believable way. It's extremely pointless to get all turned around over something so trivial as a player's race/class/gender combination.

>> No.52440784

Can't have it both ways.

Either the Fighter is a class that is meant to be mundane and mechanically terrible at all levels, in which case it should be prefaced with a line informing readers of such, or it is meant to be a class on par with legendary reality warping spellcasters at the highest levels and on par with skilled beginner casters at lower levels, in which case it needs to be updated mechanically to reflect the fact that it shouldn't suck.

>The Fighter is meant to be a heroic figure, expert in weapons and possibly in strategy as well.

A level 1 or 2 fighter can be a normal and mundane guy, but when the Wizard is stopping time, firing off spells with so many metamagic prefixes that each spell is a complete sentence in its own right, and creating a demiplane full of sentient golems that forge magical artifacts of unparalleled power around the clock, a guy who can swing a sword harder than any of his buddies isn't going to be relevant. At that point, Gilgamesh is the minimum level of strength required to continue being any real part of the story.

>> No.52440830

Because it's a problem in AD&D but to a much lesser extent due to casters with limitations on them, it's still right there in 3.PF, only a handful of people play 4E anymore, and 5E 'solved' it by gimping the fuck out of both casters and martials to the point where they're both shittier than they were in AD&D.

>> No.52440869

3e and 5e D&D

Read some mythology, most Gods don't hold a candle to D&D lowish-mid level wizards

>> No.52440873

Listen buddy if I want to play an old fucking fogey who is way past his prime and tries to do reckless shit every fight to satisfy his need for adrenaline and has two feats dedicated to bullrushing people into things and crushing them between a wall and his 6'5 crushing frame then I will

>> No.52440904

You're vastly overstating their power, Norse, Egyptian, Greek and Abrahamic gods which D&D uses most frequently could shit all over those wizards. They could get fucked with by mortals sometimes, but their feats were absolutely higher than a Fireball.

>> No.52440905
File: 1.46 MB, 2048x2048, 1490240218902.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I'm trying to get better at shitposting but whenever I try to post retarded shit I never get nearly this many (You)s.

Can someone please help me?

>> No.52440906

You are a victim of wizard-rape. Is pathetic and counter-productive, too, because it shifts focus from actual balance points and the way to fix the imbalances.


>> No.52440911

Really? I've heard that martials are still next to useless compared to casters in 5e

>> No.52440986

>Wizards are more powerful than MOST gods
>"Here's a vague list that MAY contain SOME gods that are more powerful than a wizard"

Wow you sure showed me

>> No.52440993

The problem is present in that casters have more utility and versatility, but martials aren't useless in 5e as much as overshadowed too commonly.

>> No.52441046

I am actually surprised he dignified you with an answer, because what you posted is completely retarded.
Wizards in D&D can alter reality, and Wish from 18+ can be almost divine, but state that at level 5 a d&d wizard is godlike shows unprecedented levels of autism.
This don't even taking into account the difference in resilience, knowledge, awareness and power not related to directly casting spells.

>> No.52441131


Make fighters less feat dependent so that being a human for the extra feat isn't required in order to have a remotely playable character.

>> No.52441151

Consider this: Circe is a flat out Greek goddess whose main thing is making potions and turning people into pigs. With a magic item, at that.

A level 7 3.5 Wizard with Brew Potion capped out on their potion brewing skills 2 levels ago and can cast Baleful Polymorph with *no* magic items helping them just fine. This, while being able to drop fireballs on their enemies, teleport limited distances, turn invisible, and turn themselves - or others - into powerful monsters.

>> No.52441172

They do their one job quite well, just don't expect them to do more than that one job.

A wizard cannot replace a fighter on a lark. That said, while the Fighter fills only 1 role, the Wizard can fill many, sometimes multiple at once.

Roughly equivalent in numbers power, and Fighter actually outshines in sustained damage output, but wizards have way more versatility.

>> No.52441185

Make them more like wizards. Round them up into camps to help them learn to concentrate.

>> No.52441255

Is unclear she is goddess or just a witch.
Also, MASS polymorph with no save, or a save quite high since only 1 hero passes it.

I don't see a 5 level wizad tank an hekatonkheires using a shield like athena did. Nor I can imagine the divine Zeus being interrupted and fail to spam lightnings because struck in melee.
The magic in D&D borrows or steals a bit of divine, but to go beyond that you need higher level.

>> No.52441272

Circe's godlihood was arguable at best.

>> No.52441370

>daughter of Helios
>arguable at best

>> No.52441485

this does not make her an olympian. a minor greek god is more like a fey in D&D. Heck, some D&D fey are literally that.

And still would not answer about the "power level"
discussed here >>52441255

Just let's quit this bullshit; it only damages the fighter. What the fighter needs is to remain mundane at low levels, and creep into bullshit at higher, maintaining the themes. You have a shield? Good now you reflect spells and block breath weapons. Sword? Good you deflect rays. Is a warrior that adapts to a magical word.
If still is not enough, make some spell less spammable like the teleports go back like AD&D. But most fighter players will not care.

>> No.52441655

>What is a demigod?

>> No.52442504

Well first you remove the stick from your ass. Then you lower your face from it's perpetually upturned position and get your nose out of the air. Once you have done this you are prepared to get off of your high horse and educate yourself. After you've read a bit and gotten over your stupid prejudices you'll be able to socialize normally and either accept that not everyone likes the same things you do, or happily surround yourself with people who like the same things you do and leave the rest of us alone.

>> No.52443046
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>The one guy who doesn't have any magical powers
>Which is why he's the one who needs the most magical items just to stay relevant.
I dunno chief, after at a certain point you kinda gotta wonder if you're suited for the job if you need twice the resources for a fraction of the returns.

>> No.52443089

Who the fuck goes into a high fantasy setting and say "I wanna be complete trash and quit the game once the wizard gets enough spells to outlast me in every combat scenario" at any point during the campaign?

If you want to be mundane and nonmagical, play a fucking peasant or something.

>> No.52443126

You do realize that this is fundamentally doomed to failure right? Because you're still going to be dependent on magical gear.

>> No.52443148

yeh with hooj teets

And I want them played by girls whoo look the same

and I want a coffee

>> No.52443158

>you dared criticize my post therefore you must be angry
An all-time classic.

>> No.52443168

>not sluts

>> No.52443195

It's kind of sad that poster can't apparently understand the idea that all people are unique even if they share the same gender, species and profession.

>> No.52443201

I like warblade as a concept. If I want a "realistic fantasy world" then I typically nerf the FUCK out of wizards (multiple round casting times for spells usually does it, plus rare material components for gamebreaking stuff, and I'm talking "go on a quest" rare (means more stuff for characters to do) not just "buy for high level cash stack" rare) and then have warblade instead of fighter, but with manuevers trimmed to be realistic within cartoon physics, but you can use any one maneuver you know any time you want. Retraining makes no sense as anything but a game mechanic.

and no stances. Iron heart surge is dealt with by dm adjucation, which means no pulling stupid shit, but feel free to be epic

>> No.52443211

I'm a mundane-kin and this triggers me

>> No.52443215

If you have 20 levels in any class, it's going to automatically stop being mundane simply because by that point, you are the god of that particular class and are free to take on whatever sort of deity level bullshit the game has to throw at you.

So trying to make 20 levels in Fighter count as level 5 in terms of versatility, while making 20 levels in wizard be worth probably 40 levels in terms of versatility, is fucking mental.

You can't have a team where Superman and Jimmy Olsen is in the same weight class, so why even bother making the distinction rather than counting each class as magical in some broad sense of the term?

>> No.52443218

Because I can grab the wizard around his scrawny neck, shove a fist sized spell component out of his own bag down his throat, then put him in a full Nelson if I need to. Extra attack, enhanced time sense, combat reflexes, enhanced move speed, arm strength, and wrestling tend to detonate mages.

>> No.52443238

Well I'm not

>> No.52443253
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you forgot the cute anime girl in vaguely sexual circumstances.


>> No.52443260

yes m8 I agree, your fictioonal character could totally beat up my fictional character.


>> No.52443285

That's assuming that a) you're close enough, b) the wizard doesn't have a spell that allows him to auto-escape grapples, and c) doesn't 5 ft. step before hitting you with a spell that targets your overall shitty Will save.

Not to mention, Black Tentacle makes the wizard a marginally better grappler than you could ever hope to be, while you're stuck down a shitty path that has planned obsolescence so that it breaks down by level 5.

Finally, literally any other martial class that meets the prereqs can do the same thing as you're doing, yet still bring something else to the table that makes them good. Fucking Monks get improved grapple for free as a class ability yet they're still one the shittiest classes in the core rule book.

>> No.52443297



>> No.52443298

>because even when you play a rainbow dragonwolf blackguard 22/winged disciple 12/summoner 30, you still have to at least make the effort to imagine something.
But that's not true at all the game designers have already done all the imagining for you, just remember to squeeze in all the various background elements typically associated with all those things and you're already halfway there, it saves you the effort of having to actually imagine anything yourself.

>> No.52443317

>multiple round casting times for spells usually does it
How exactly does this work?
> plus rare material components for gamebreaking stuff, and I'm talking "go on a quest" rare (means more stuff for characters to do) not just "buy for high level cash stack" rare
Yes friend, because warping the campaign so that the Cleric has to go on a quest to cast Miracle will TOOOOTALLY show off how not-game-breakingly good they are.

I mean, fuck, mages get an in-game purpose for why they're adventuring, meanwhile I'm just a nigga with a short sword trying not to get in the way.

>> No.52443327

shuttup ur wrong.

here's Y

If you play somehting boring, you will be boring. That's fine, if you have fun, but file away in the back of your head that you are boring (if you wonder why people find you boring or annoying)

If you play something interesting ( like EITHER a bulk human fighter or a trisexual furry) the creativity must come from yoou. How you think, how you act, how you talk, and what kind of initiative you take doing things what hasn't been done before, is NOT

I repeat NOT

gonna come from the game designers.

Especially not any dnd stuff WOTc's done. That shits mad gay yo.

Go slap a punk, ass man. I fish for bass with my chapstick patch on, fat crass man

>> No.52443348

Be mad all you want but if we're going off of the mechanics, a wizard in favorable conditions will automatically beat the fighter in favorable conditions each and every time.

Hell, even if the wizard was handicapped he'd still probably win, simply because the Fighter can't OHKO him before he can cast a spell and either recover in an inaccessible demi-plane before stomping you into the dirt or just cast time-stop + Force Cage + Cloud Kill to kill you right there.

>> No.52443351

Wow, I thought it was a meme that d20 fags didn't actually know their game, but that's all from GURPS. So yeah, d20/path dagger/dungeons&dickings is broken. High fantasy isn't though, seeing as that's a genre and not a system. My answer to why I would be generic human fighter in high fantasy is because I like to suplex frail egg heads and break their spines against the rubble that was once their family home. Stay mad that your caster game for caster snowflakes is the only place your "nerds are the bestest at everything" fantasy can come true.

>> No.52443357

You can play mundane nonmagical person if you want to, but then you have to accept the fact that in D&D you can't then level up beyond third, fourth level because around there you're starting to veer into the supernatural superhuman territory. Your choices are either to pick another game or stick with a level 2 Fighter.

>> No.52443358

>multiple rounds per cast

Pretty obvious. I won't give the full list I use for all 200 bajilin spells, but here's the gist of it

Magic missile (completely unmodified) 1 round/cast
fireball (unmodified) 2 rounds/cast
disintegrate 3 rounds/cast

reshape world in an epic fashion that people complain about on tg (aka wish) summons a genie, takes multiple hours to cast, and you make the wish out louud, to the genie, instead of simply wanting stuff to happen a certain way. Write your wish carefully, and don't expect the dm to give you whatever you want even if you have a lawyer look over your words first. Greed is punished, no exceptions.

>cleric still gamebreaking waa

dude, its a miracle. He's beseeching a ghod, who has other followers, to do something.

Interpret it as a plea, and make sure the player is acting in the name of good.

also, don't allow evil gods for pcs without extreme caution.

>my sword dude doesn't have a need for adventure

what the fuck?
third son of a third son?

wandering prince?

farm boy dreaming of soemthing greater?

mercenary without a war?

wandering thief who seeks only gold?

Grizzled veteren with a heart of gold?

seek your fortune, fame, glory, marry the princess, slay epic beasts, and come home with a story.

shit dude, I wanna do it in real life, but the only adventures I can think of take like 10 years of preparation and I'm in fucking uni

>> No.52443366

Yeah but what if MY fictional character is actually better than ur fictional charter because he has the bigger peen

>> No.52443382

yeah but like what if there was version of dnd which was good.

WHat of the dm made small adjustments to the rules to make a game that they enjoyed

I refer you to OSG and I want you to suck a big lolipop

>> No.52443387
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It's all about the Human Skeleton Fighter. So much roleplaying potential.

Just imagine the sort of epic stories you could tell. You're just an average skeleton with average skeleton desires: To terrify some villagers in the peaceful hamlet next to your graveyard. But alas, such a simple (un)life is not within your grasp, because an evil warlord has invaded the lands and threatens to destroy the village if the townsfolk do not pay him tribute, tribute they can not afford after the recent droughts have blighted their crops. You must do what any good skeleton would, and venture forth from your comfortable existence to save the village you love to frighten so!

Truly the stuff of legends. Can your Human Male Fighter do that?

>> No.52443397

The problem there is that blasters are completely 100% unplayable when they were already bad while someone who's abusing Shapechange or Polymorph or planar binding bullshit is mostly untouched. I mean, Shapechange literally lets you change your form to anything else you can use as a free action every single round it's active.

>> No.52443403

Let's see, time stop, force cage, cloud kill...those all sound like spells that directly manipulate targets via magic. It sure would be a shame if someone were immune to direct magical meddling and could only be affected by spells that say...throw giant rocks and make things explode.

>> No.52443409

You don't have to be a generic human fighter to suplex anyone though, any martial class in the game can be good at grappling but none of them do because grappling is a terrible investment that don't give you good returns.

Even then, you're not going to suplex the wizard if he prepared one of many spells that would allow him just to say "I'm no longer grappled" with no save or roll on your part to prevent it.

Also, suplexing people so hard that they can destroy a home is just as much power wankery than anything that you have against mages.

Just saying.

>> No.52443416

Nope, all three of them have nothing to do with spell resistance.

>> No.52443420


Sure. In fact, they do it while carrying a bunch of extra muscles and organs and stuff, just to make it a challenge.

>> No.52443428

Not that guy, but basically, to take L5R for an example, the base casting time for a spell is a number of rounds equal to spell level + 1. There are things that you can do to reduce this significantly, back to it being something you can just sling at someone on the fly, but they all compromise the effectiveness of the spell, and your probability of even casting it successfully at all. Reducing your level 1 and level 2 spells down to single round casts is always at least an option, but as power scales higher, it rapidly becomes impossible to get anything done without WOLOLO'ing for a few turns first.

This then means that even though wizards *can* do total bullshit that wrecks martials, martials have enormous amounts of action economy over them, being capable of doing 2 or 3 things each turn instead of somewhere between 0.2 and 1.

>> No.52443429

>version of dnd which was good.
Yes, that would fall under the 'another game' category I was suggesting.

There is nothing mundane about OD&D Fighter class at higher levels, so that doesn't cover what you want.

>> No.52443432

What if you weren't a bitch and actually accepted your limitations based off of the rules of the game?

>> No.52443453

Firstly, wrench limb will instakill most characters in Gurps if you have a good strength.

Secondly, I didn't use my bare hands to destroy that house, it was a torch.

Thirdly, GURPS isn't a clas based game.

>> No.52443460

None of those spells target and none of those spells are affected by magical resistance.

Time stop gives you extra turns, force cage summon walls of force around a finite area, and cloud kill is just a gas that once inhaled will kill the victim.

They affect a particular area but they don't specifically target an area directly.

>> No.52443471

We're not talking about GURPS though, we're talking about D&D.

>> No.52443486

What is spell resistence? I took a 0 point disadvantage that makes it impossible for me to receive magical healing, to use any spells, potions, or magical objects, or be affected by any direct magic. On the down side o can never teleport, I take forever and a day to heal, my loot is gimped, and outside of minor tweaks in gear, my loot never actually makes me better at anything because no magical stat boosts. The upside is that I can't be mind controlled, affected by telekinesis, or magically altered. I can still be gibbed by a giant rock but if some jack hole casts time stop I'm just going to use all three of my attacks to propel the same rock and triple its speed when time stop ends.

>> No.52443494

I'm talking Gurps, seeing as the high fantasy SETTING was being discussed, not badfinder

>> No.52443496

>What is spell resistence?
Whether a spell is magical in effect or not. SR: No = fundamentally the same as throwing a rock at you with magic.

>> No.52443501

Ah, the gas might do it. Fifty fifty and who succumbed to whose attack first.

>> No.52443517

The problem with your interpretation is that he's not casting Time Stop on you. He's casting on himself and all it does is make him really fucking fast.

>> No.52443520

The entire point of the thread was based around D&D and how it basically handled mundane characters. GURPS has nothing to do with this discussion and you're an idiot for even bringing it up.

Nobody is even questioning the possibility of Fighters being GOOD in other games, so it honestly goes without saying.

>> No.52443527

Stop time definitely wouldn't work because no shit, stopping time is directly magical. The force cage wouldn't work because the walls are just magical force. If it was dirt cage it would work fine but it's not. Summoning noxious gas would work because it's a physical thing that would affect my character.

>> No.52443537
File: 24 KB, 480x358, 503.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>be me
>be skellington
>love to scare villagers
>village is in danger from evil warlord
>if village is kill, I have no one to scare
>great quest to save village
>villagers celebrate me as their hero and savior
>no longer fear me

>> No.52443556

Well it seems like another MARTIALS R DUM thread has come to the same conclusion here in the kingdom of tee jee

Have you tried not playing DnD?

>> No.52443573

Spell resistance only works if the effect itself is targeting you, sorta like Shroud from MtG. However, like Shroud, if the effect doesn't target you specifically, the ability doesn't work because it's not directly targeting you.

I couldn't, say, hit you with magic missile or cure wounds because each of those can only really hit a single target. However, if I cast stone to mud on the area beneath your feet and then use mud to stone to change it back, the effect would still work because I'm targeting the area beneath your feet, rather than targeting you specifically.

So a mage using time stop on you would still be able to use stopped time on you, because the effect doesn't specifically mention a target and affects everything within the mage's sight (maybe even more) in order to give the mage extra turns to do his thing.

I hope this helps.

>> No.52443588

So he's stopping time...but only his own time...and that makes him move faster? You sound like you're trying to make up a reason the spell should work the way you want it to even though it doesn't. The wizard isn't getting EXTRA turns, he's taking his normal turns and everyone else is frozen. This is mechanically represented by the wizard acting several times in sequence.

What would "actually" be happening is that all time would magically stop, the wizard would do his thing, and then time would start again. Except my character would not be affected by the time stop and would act normally, being completely immune to magical affects.

You're basically saying that you can do damage to a fire with a flame attack. It just don't work.

>> No.52443596

Which game are you talking about?

>> No.52443599

>This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds

>> No.52443602

That's because D&D is a game where martials cannot have nice things, EVER!

So if you have a problem with that, playing some other game is usually the best way to solve the problem. You're basically going
>I'm wet and I'm cold
>Well get out of the rain

>> No.52443611

Again, I'm not talking about DND. Definitions are a little more loose. My character is immune to any spell, whether it "directly" targets him or not. He can be affected by spells that do things like throw rocks, swords that swing on their own, magically summoned physical objects. But any effect that is completely magical in nature just doesn't do anything to him. Sorry for the confusion.

>> No.52443618

>This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds.
Literally the first sentece.

>> No.52443622

Is that really how its described? Lol, I take it back. Why the fuck is it called time stop instead of something like...SPEED FORCE.

>> No.52443632

see >>52443618

>> No.52443648

Well no fucking shit D&D mechanics aren't going to work outside of D&D you shit-gobbling mongoloid! I don't know how spell resistance works in your game so I can't even comment on how that shit would actually work.

For fuck's sakes man.

>> No.52443651

Because it was changed to stop abuses that existed when it *actually* stopped time in AD&D.

Did you know that force effects aren't actually magical by default either? See: Orb of Force. Completely ignores spell resistance, which therefore ignores spell immunity.

3.5 is dumb as fuck.

>> No.52443657

In my defense, the rain here is usually pretty warm

>> No.52443680

Still doesn't change the fact that if you're uncomfortable with being soaked then the optimum solution is to find a relatively dry area, NOT TO FUCKING BITCH ABOUT IT!

Nothing's gonna get done and you're just going to piss off everyone else with your stubbornness.

>> No.52443681

I...Guess if the spell made a wall of super dense air or something? We try pretty hard to make spells make some kind of sense, especially considering most of them are hand made by our Mage players. Spells that are strictly magical are typically stronger, but spells that affect the world tend to have neat combos

>> No.52443705

Well, unfortunately we're talking about 3.5 here. "Spells that affect the world" pretty much defines the Conjuration school, which ends up making casters the hard counter to golems, the monster type that's specifically meant to hard counter spellcasters.

>> No.52443713

>Not just inventing an umbrella and carrying on with your life


>Coming up with shit analogies that bog down the debate even more

>> No.52443722
File: 37 KB, 613x834, 1425466344490.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The fact this is getting so many replies shows it hits close and hits hard.

>> No.52443751

If you're not experienced in engineering, you're most likely going to end up with a shitty umbrella that might not even keep you dry, maybe even pull more moisture towards you if you don't use the right material to repeal the water away from you.

Therefore, the best solution is still to get to an area that's dry and allows you to get out of the rain.

>> No.52443769

Throwing rocks at an earth golem wouldn't do anything more than shooting it with an arrow of equal mass and velocity. Now, if you hosed a golem made entirely of dirt with a high pressure spray of water, that would absolutely have a strong affect on it. It's a bit loose, but we try to use logic to dictate extra effects and weaknesses.

>> No.52443772

But what if I am experienced in engineering?

>> No.52443786

Then you're still wasting your fucking time because finding a dry place that gets you out of the rain is faster, easier, and more effective in the long run.

>> No.52443798

What if the surrounding area is also wet? What if its the rainy season?
What if I live in the UK?

>> No.52443858

Unless you're standing in the center of some flatlands where there are no trees to build a structure with, no caves to hide in, and no buildings to take refuse in, a dinky little umbrella isn't going to help you one way or another.

If you live in the UK though, there will always be some place to hide out in, whether it's a shop, the tube, or even some public building like a library or a fast food restaurant.

>> No.52444141

Anima martials have meh-bad utility and bullshit ways to solve problems.
They are gods of war as they should be.
Also make best summoner with dark paladin-technician.

>play anima
>60%+ of the party is human fighter variants or domines

>> No.52445799

Everyone has to start somewhere. For some people being yourself but dealing with magic and monsters with a sword is already pushing it.
Not to mention that you can put sprinkles and fun stuff into a vanilla choice. There are a thousand and one ways to go about it. Here's one I just did
>roll up human male fighter
>theme him around being an ex-soldier who was the head of an anti-magic squad
>his entire squad's dead
>a mage killed them all with him as the only survivor
>theme character around familiarity with/destroying magic and its users, leadership abilities, and a professional attitude
And that's just the backstory.

>> No.52445834

>it's about male compensation
But what if I'm crossplaying as the heroic, swole husbando I'll never get IRL?

>> No.52445845

>couldn't hang on to the German states

>> No.52445880


>> No.52446514

And that was because as all non trastamara he didnt know how to use the wave of manolos.

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