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[ERROR] No.52417881 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Pathfinder General /pfg/

What will it take to save Spheres of Might as a whole?

Unified /pfg/ link repository: http://pastebin.com/hAfKSnWW

Avowed Playtest 1: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg
Avowed Playtest 2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit?usp=sharing

Spheres of Might playtest:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/160bWvYewTwEXj9ZZv-jJ9-VrvGpYNHNcF8w6BMsdqgU/edit#

Sphere of Power playtest:
Creation Handbook Playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kitAB8sHgmuD3fvOMuI_KyV_dxpO2wrxQmbnCoRgglA/edit?usp=sharing
Dark Handbook Playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zHRZyaMh_QwWcQ-ROGCjQyCdflD6cbm9VdEOJMpC06I/edit?usp=sharing
Life Handbook Playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wTv7VGj2qzjGnReD1lLRwC8iNG_G6f-a6XzMQlTB1yM/edit?usp=sharing
Mind Handbook Playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kp4acH7zTk4e3DfPdYDfTk1jJClly3yp27Jfrf3FRWw/edit?usp=sharing

Gear of Power Playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zIomq0TFP7uPdlFB8VRAIWQEjAXLV5CYpP3HmjySynU/edit?usp=sharing
Wild Magic Handbook: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xBfoH6YcTdD3kwjn3ikItWPBGzIm9g3SVkVvUQD1yUw/edit?usp=sharing
Wild Magic Tables: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NU5bK1Dyzu66KgIdrHNaaXBw1eHVpcHZHOh5BDaxMzU/edit?usp=sharing

Bloodforge Infusions updated playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GvwMclLSw15slYI7D5xLdjMzr-Nau92hNha9Sx0LOk4/edit#

Old Thread: >>52413311

>> No.52417965

>>52417881
Forget Spheres of Might. PoW is close enough to being a viable alternative that we just need to get some unofficial errata and spread it around until it becomes official.

>> No.52417977

I'm new to pathfinder and new to divine casters (played 3.5, though)

How would I caster oracle well? Arcane is much more obvious to me with spells like grease, create pit, burning hands, fireball, etc.

Using the hammer-arm-anvil perspective, oracles would mostly be the arm, right? Would there be a way to get a hammer (caster) oracle, or an anvil (caster) oracle?

>> No.52418038

>>52417881
>What will it take to save Spheres of Might as a whole?

A good designer.

>> No.52418042

>>52417965
No thanks.

Not until the following are removed
>Primal Fury
>Scarlet Throne
>Riven Hourglass
>Dark Seraph
>Mithral Current
>Elemental Flux

>> No.52418064

>>52418042
>I hate fun

>> No.52418076

>>52418042
>Scarlet Throne
>Primal Fury
I can see not liking the new stuff, but those are bread and butter dude.

>> No.52418106

>>52418042
>Primal Fury
Okay.
>Scarlet Throne
Only Zenith Strikes.
>Riven Hourglass
Oh no, people can get /haste/? How dare they!
>Black Seraph
Why.
>Mithral Current
Why.
>Elemental Flux
Why.

>> No.52418114

>>52418064
No, I hate poorly balanced disciplines.

>>52418076
Sure, and they're way too easy to push up to stupid levels.
Plus, as a DM, I really dislike the implications a lot of them have on low magic settings.

>> No.52418115

>>52417965
Well, the errata would have to do a couple things. Namely make Piercing Thunder a viable option (and make it more focused), fix up Steel Serpent to have more potency, tune the damage of Primal Fury and Broken Blade down, make it so that Mithral Current is easier to use without having to always go Bushi, give the Stalker a bit more love, and no doubt other such things, but those come up off the top of my head as the main issues.

>> No.52418131

>>52418042
>Hating Riven, Mithral, Flux, and Throne
>Thinking BB is fine

How does one manage to become such a tremendous faggot

>> No.52418138

>>52418114
Then don't allow the explicitly supernatural disciplines in your campaign. There. Easy. Done.

>> No.52418147

>>52418106
>Riven Hourglass
Narrative implications, mostly.
>Black Seraph
See above.
>Mithral Current
That one may just be annoyance at a specific player abusing it.
>Elemental Flux
I feel that it offers too much and doesn't really fit martials.

>> No.52418157

>>52418114
They're incredibly straightforward disciplines. PF is a little over the top in damage, but that's easily fixable.

>> No.52418182

>>52418115
OK, let's just do that. We'll work down the list in that order.

Piercing Thunder. Start from Level 1 Maneuvers. Which maneuvers are wrong and what could make it better?

>> No.52418189

>>52418147
>opinions
wew lad

>> No.52418217

>>52418131
As long as we're talking about PoW already, I need somebody to educate me on what the problem is with it. My understanding is that it was made with punching in mind but then people started using it with greatswords and stuff, so it turned out to be broken? What's a reasonable hot-fix for Broken Blade?

>> No.52418223

>>52418147
What the fuck narrative implications are there for those two? That you muck about with time and that you've got some dark energy? So what? More and more it seems like you're saying that martials aren't allowed to encroach on casters in any way.

>> No.52418243

>>52418223
>he doesn't see a problem with martials somehow having control over time and dark energy
How is that even a martial anymore?

>> No.52418246

>>52418223
Black Seraph's lore has a fair amount of implications about the origins of civilization.

>> No.52418257

>>52418223

Good applications actually make getting those abilities a significant backstory element.

>> No.52418262

>>52418243
>Halfcasters exist

How are these even casters anyway?

>> No.52418284

So anyone has read the first two modules of the Ironfan Invasion?

>> No.52418291

>>52418262
A weaker caster.

That doesn't work as an argument.

>> No.52418292

>>52418243
Because you're still hitting someone with something at the end of the day.
>>52418246
You can strip away fluff. Very easily in fact.
>>52418257
>applications
What?

>> No.52418300 [DELETED] 

Spheres of Might's martial traditions offer the following to any character:

>Some classes gain a martial tradition as part of their proficiencies, but characters who do not may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons.

This seems far too strong in some cases. If you are a barbarian (with the right archetype), a hunter, an occultist, a ranger, slayer, a vigilante, then why *not* cash in your proficiencies for a martial tradition?

You can pick a tradition like Bushido Way to gain proficiency with heavy armor and full speed in all armor types, the Dueling sphere (take both drawbacks, gain Defensive Cut and Scar Tissue, take Muscular Reflexes, and enjoy your great resilience), and proficiencies with many good weapons, including nodachis and longbows.

This is also unfair to native heavy armor users like fighters and paladins, who get less out of this deal than others.

Can you imagine mixing the streams between Path of War and Spheres of Power? Imagine Strength-based harbingers, mystics, and stalkers (vigilante) all starting off with heavy armor proficiency, full speed in all armor, Defensive Slice and Scar Tissue, Muscular Reflexes, and nodachi proficiency.

>> No.52418331

pfggames.jpg

>> No.52418336

>>52418292
>Because you're still hitting someone with something at the end of the day.
Except when you're teleporting, turning into liquid shadow, shooting lasers, etc.

>> No.52418358

>>52418336
>martials are not allowed to do crazy shit

If Link is allowed to shoot sword beams, why the fuck can't I?

>> No.52418368

>>52418292

I'm saying characters that spend time incorporating Black Seraph or Riven Hourglass into their backstory are doing something right. Anon complained about the narrative implications of those disciplines while I'm saying competent people already know they have implications.

>> No.52418379

>>52418358
This argument never ends and never changes anyone opinions.

I personally don't think that teleportation is thematically a "martial" ability, you do, neither of us are going to change our minds.

>> No.52418391

>>52418336
Teleporting by swinging your sword, turning into liquid shadow through training with your sword, shooting lasers from your sword.

>> No.52418392

>>52418182
Off the top of my head...

>Phalanx Lancer exists
This needs to be a feat, you don't want to be stuck in a 1st-level stance your entire career.
>Iron Pikeman Attitude
This is basically another feat, and it becomes obsolete as soon as Mithral Armor starts existing. For Fighters
>Oaken Shield
Needs to scale better, maybe initiation modifier instead of +4.

The big issues with Piercing Thunder is that it has overlap with Primal Fury. Primal Fury does charging, and so does Piercing Thunder. Primal Fury is a lot /better/ at it. So in order to make Piercing Thunder more viable, you also need to nerf Primal Fury. The one way I see of doing this is to make Primal Fury the "one big hit" while Piercing Thunder does the whole, "charge, do fancy acrobatics, be a Dragoon from final fantasy." There's nothing wrong with a bit of overlap, but Piercing Thunder just doesn't /do/ anything other than chargemonkeying, and Primal Fury also does that and better.

>>52418217
Make it so that you're HARD-LOCKED into using discipline weapons. There we go.

>>52418246
Then you can change the lore. The mechanics of Black Seraph are basically "be spooky, intimidate others, use DARK ENERGY", you can change the fluff however you like.

>> No.52418397

What are some useful defense type Wondrous Items for sorcerers you can get for less than 10,000gp?

>> No.52418406

>>52417881
A swift cosh to the back of Ssalarn's head.

>> No.52418416

>>52418391

But... How are they doing this? Saying they can turn into liquid shadow by "training" is lazy and dumb.

>> No.52418427

Spheres of Might's martial traditions offer the following to any character:

>Some classes gain a martial tradition as part of their proficiencies, but characters who do not may choose to trade their starting proficiencies (other than simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers, if applicable) for a martial tradition at 1st level, as long as their normal starting proficiencies include proficiency with all martial weapons.

This seems far too strong in some cases. If you are a barbarian (with the right archetype), a hunter, an occultist, a ranger, slayer, a vigilante, then why *not* cash in your proficiencies for a martial tradition?

You can pick a tradition like Bushido Way to gain proficiency with heavy armor and full speed in all armor types, the Dueling sphere (take both drawbacks, gain Defensive Cut and Scar Tissue, take Muscular Reflexes, and enjoy your great resilience), and proficiencies with many good weapons, including nodachis and longbows.

This is also unfair to native heavy armor users like fighters and paladins, who get less out of this deal than others.

Can you imagine mixing the streams between Path of War and Spheres of Power? Imagine Strength-based mystics and stalkers (vigilante) starting off with heavy armor proficiency, full speed in all armor, Defensive Slice and Scar Tissue, Muscular Reflexes, and nodachi proficiency.

>> No.52418434

>>52418379
>TELEPORTATION ISN'T A MARTIAL THING!
Monk says hi, and he's calling you a faggot.

>> No.52418436

>>52418392
Isn't Phalanx Lancer the one that lets you 1-hand otherwise twohanded spears?

Cuz I think that feat exists in 1pp now. Although you need a shield. Dunno if Phalanx Lancer does too.

>> No.52418444

>>52418391
>Teleporting by swinging your sword
Except when it isn't, such as in Shattered mirror.

> turning into liquid shadow through training with your sword
Except when it isn't.

>shooting lasers from your sword.
Specifically for the maneuver I'm thinking of you summon a laser and throw it, like dark soul's lightening bolts

>>52418392
>Then you can change the lore. The mechanics of Black Seraph are basically "be spooky, intimidate others, use DARK ENERGY", you can change the fluff however you like.
Profane energy specifically, which was such a weird fucking choice because profane and untyped are essentially mechanically identical.

>> No.52418454

>>52418392
Alright, that's actually some good feedback for Piercing Thunder. So what we basically need to do is reduce charge dependency and move those stances out into feats or other things.

>> No.52418458

>>52418379
Is a monk a martial character?
>>52418416
The problem is that right now you're saying that the world is fundamentally magical. Demons, dragons, wizards, this all exist. But the second you pick up a sword you're now John the bumfuck knight in England c. 1245.

>> No.52418463

>>52418416
>Magus learns how to shoot fire and teleport and shapeshift by study and training

???

>> No.52418468

>>52418434
That's because teleportation is explicitly a supernatural thing you shitwheel. Monks are supernatural.

>> No.52418469

>>52418434
Like I said I don't feel it is thematically a martial ability, you do. I don't like abundant step personally.

Besides, monks exist on the edge of supernatural martials. Of the pure martials they're by far the most supernatural.

>> No.52418486

>>52418217
From my experience, Broken Blade overcompensates for unarmed and close weapon's lower dice. They grant +2 damage AND it has maneuvers that are straight up better than the ones found on other disciplines. God help us all if someone gets that on a character with scaling unarmed damage.

>> No.52418490

>>52418458
I'm saying I want to not just be a spell caster with a different coat of paint.

Another one, I don't consider trapping people's souls in mirrors to be a thematically martial ability.

>> No.52418495

Oh, Blingmaker started. Crap, now I have to debate if I want to save my dragon girl idea for Kingmaker or use it for both.

>> No.52418517

>>52418468
>>52418469
>fighter guy learns supernatural moves through training and meditation
>learns to move so fast he's practically teleporting through sheer force of will
>this isn't allowed because that's a supernatural thing and fighters CAN'T HAVE SUPERNATURAL THINGS
>nevermind that by level 6 you are a christmas tree of magic items and capable of superhuman feats anyway

>> No.52418519

>>52418436
I haven't kept track of things as closely as I should. Piercing Thunder stances need to be stuff you can swap out without crippling your build. So just make all the Piercing Thunder stances into feats that you can take... maybe as part of a style feat chain? Piercing Thunder seems to be the "weird Dark Souls build where you dual-wield a lance and a tower shield or a pair of greatswords or a greatsword and a whip" or something similar in terms of stances, and it weakens the discipline as a whole when you have to be locked into a single low-level stance that doesn't give damage boosts, and it weakens your character even MORE when you can't use better stances too!

>>52418468
Supernatural, but no spells! Like the Kineticist.

>> No.52418524

At this rate, is Spheres of Might ever going to become "commonly accepted" in /pfg/ games like PoW and SoP?

>> No.52418542

>>52418444
Profane does 50% more damage to good subtyped creatures.

>> No.52418552

>>52418458

The heck? That's not what I'm saying at all - besides, Scarlet Throne and Primal Fury are entirely mundane and extremely effective.

What I'm saying is it's just plain STUPID to say your character can stop time because "they can swing sword good." That's bullshit and is not only lazy, it's wasted potential. Yes, we're living in a magical world, but that does not and should not mean every single person is a magical girl waiting for their contract. There must be order to things, and there must be reason. Someone that knows Black Seraph might have a demonic possession, or maybe someone using Veiled Moon is partially disconnected from their soul, there's many many ways to actually add depth to a character with these supernatural choices and it pains me to see people think it's not worth even discussing.

>> No.52418560

>>52418490
So what you're saying, is, again, despite the world being fundamentally magical, the act of picking up a sword means that you are removed from magic land. You've created this false distinction in your mind whereby someone calling themselves a "martial" makes them no longer a fantasy character.

>> No.52418563

>>52418542
Sacred and Profane damage were a mistake

>> No.52418574

If you are a Mystic with Victorious Recovery with 16 Wis, does that mean you can actually kill something, get access to all your maneuvers and then cycle them again next turn?

This seems potentially hilarious for alpha damage

>> No.52418582

>>52418552
So, since the start of this conversation was "These things should be banned," your answer to "These things aren't used well," is not to raise standards but to ban them entirely.

>> No.52418586

>>52418524
Mark my words.
In a few months time, the most common shitposting isn't going to be about stormwinding, or whether PoW is OP, or 2hu.

The bait guaranteed to start an argument and consume the thread every time will be "PoW vs SoM, which is better? Should I use both?"

>> No.52418588

>>52418560

Fundamentally magical =/= Tippyverse, this is not Dragonlance.

>> No.52418589

>>52418552
>can stop time because swing sword good

Riven Hourglass does not let you stop time, faggot. It has a high level manuever that lets you TAKE AN ACTION IN STOPPED TIME.

>> No.52418604

>>52418517
Yes, and?

>learns to move so fast he's practically teleporting through sheer force of will
Except he IS teleporting, which means he can teleport inside a solid sealed box, passing through the object.

Trapping enemy's souls in mirrors, mind control, exploding into golden light and reforming from the twinkle in an ally's eye, having shadows hold someone down, laser eyes, summoning swords made of your soul, turning into a ghost, etc.

I don't think these abilities thematically fit on many martial's framework. Fighter, brawler, and cavalier for example.

>> No.52418630

>>52418582

I... I uhh... I was not arguing for or against that, I'm just taking offense at people who think supernatural disciplines need no explanation, or just a mundane one.

>> No.52418649

>>52418560
The thing is you should be able to be doing extraordinary things and participate without having do be able to do stuff like mind control, teleportation, etc. You should be able to be martial and extraordinary without just carbon copying casters and dumping a new coat of pain on.

>> No.52418652

>>52418604
but they fit other martials

so because some of this shit doesn't fit some characters, nobody can have it? thats retarded

>> No.52418667

>>52418604
You just have to make it part of their character that they have these supernatural edges.

>> No.52418669

>>52418649
por que no las dos?

>> No.52418691

>>52418604
What about the magus, martial focused occultist, and warpriest?

Do they get a pass because they get 'caster' as a blatant word at the top of their class description despite the fact they're doing largely the same thing?

Would you allow an Initiating Kineticist to use Elemental Flux?
What about an initiating Bard?

>> No.52418707

>>52418392
>Oaken Shield
>Needs to scale better, maybe initiation modifier instead of +4.
When I made a discipline with scaling maneuvers, the complaint I got was "these shouldn't scale because you're supposed to trade them out", so I dunno how well that would fly.

>> No.52418734

>>52418652
>so because some of this shit doesn't fit some characters, nobody can have it? thats retarded
No, never said that. I'm saying that some abilities don't thematically fit some classes. Which is why I don't like Unorthodox Method and Martial Traditions.

I'm happy with Myrmidon's current list except for maybe mithral current because mithral current can break mach 3.

>>52418667
Well ok. I just don't believe you should be calling it "martial" any longer. I'm not saying it's inherently bad, I'm just saying that for what I define as martial teleportation, laser eyes, mind control, etc. aren't martial.

>> No.52418736

>>52418604
>>52418630
They are tools to be used, and if your players are too much of a bunch of dumbasses to figure out how to justify them on classes that have no other flavor besides "hit things good" that doesn't mean they should be banned, it means you raise the fucking bar and tell them to justify it.

>people who think supernatural disciplines need no explanation
of course they need explanation, but telling someone they should probably explain their ability to pull a GBA Fire Emblem should be priority #1 instead of just screaming "MARTIALS SHOULDN'T DO THAT".

>> No.52418738

>>52418707
Eh well. Usually low-level maneuvers scale somewhat- I guess make it 2+initiation modifier and have later iterations have bigger static bonuses? I was iffy on even making it scale.

>> No.52418773

>>52418691
>What about the magus, martial focused occultist, and warpriest?
What I have to say is I am not against the use of these abilities. I just don't feel like you're still a martial. Thematically you've moved away from martial. Is that inherently a bad thing? Not really. I just don't personally want to play it or play with it as it doesn't invoke a style of game I enjoy.

>Would you allow an Initiating Kineticist to use Elemental Flux?
yeah sure, why not

>What about an initiating Bard?
Yeah sure

>> No.52418796

>>52418734
>supernatural things mean you're not a martial
>monks are once again no longer martials

WELL COLOR ME SURPRISED.

You see this faggot? You see how he's got fire? This is possibly an elemental flux-using Steelfist Commando. He punches motherfuckers with martial arts. He also lights them on fire by incorporating that into his martial arts. is he somehow not a martial?

>> No.52418798

>>52418736
I love the old FE crits.

>> No.52418809

>>52418736
>Not using best boy Ike for the example.

>> No.52418825

>>52418773
Sounds like you're way too hung up on the class name, then.

>> No.52418828

>>52418738
Honestly, Oaken Shield isn't a bad maneuver imo. At the levels you have it a +4 boost to your AC is pretty big, and by the time you trade it out the +4 isn't as useful. And it's not as hilariously easy to abuse as "make an easy-to-boost skill check vs an attack roll". Maybe incorporate it into the higher level counters somehow. Might work well if you get a stance or something that adds your Shield bonus to damage or something, I dunno.

>> No.52418834

>>52418736
>>52418809
Man, when I played FE:A, this is one part I sure missed, the hilariously over the top critical hit animations

>> No.52418837

>>52418427
It definitely rewards classes that just barely qualify (anything with only light armor proficiency + martial weapon proficiency) over classes that get everything like Fighters. Maybe certain martial traditions need a point cost and the amount of proficiencies you give up gives you points to determine what's a valid pick. What are your thoughts on balance between martial traditions themselves?

>> No.52418852

>>52418828
Potentially. There's just a few issues with Piercing Thunder but they're big ones- the stances are ALL trash and just need to be made into feats.

>> No.52418859

>>52418796
I would say no, he isn't really a martial. He's an odd form of supernatural character. Monks I don't really classify as pure martials either because they are explicitly very supernatural.

>> No.52418889

>>52418809
That doesn't look anywhere near as fucking sayisfying as other crit animations.

D+

>> No.52418919

>>52418825
Not so much class name is wanting to be a character who he himself does not do supernatural things. Having things that are magical and interacting with the supernatural, but he himself not being supernatural.

If I am to do stuff like teleport, control people's minds, shoot lasers, etc. I am being supernatural. Even if they are techniques gained through training it is still me doing supernatural things.

Does this mean I want to ban it for everyone? No, not really. I just don't want to play it. I went a little to far saying I don't want to play with it. I don't mind playing with it.

>> No.52418928

>>52418859
>Honest to god fighting game character is not a martial
You are getting hung up on the fact that some abilities in this system have different letters slapped on them than others. You are beyond help

Also, I would like to mention the fact that one of the most EFFECTIVE FIGHTER BUILDS IS NOT A MARTIAL by your definition, purely because "it has supernatural abilities". All because it can use magic. The FIGHTER is no longer a martial because it can do magic using 1pp. Think about that.

>> No.52418933

>implying martial has anything to do with supernatural or not
If your job is "I make enemies fall down via HP damage" you're a motherfucking martial. Whether that's via a sword, fist, or fucking fire-blast is semantics.

>> No.52418937

>>52418852
Yeah, that could work as a rework. All the stances become feats (or are feats already and don't need to be remade) and the stances become things that enable and enhance different playstyles instead of being requirements.

>> No.52418979

>>52418859
>He punches people
>He's a martial!
>He punches people and his punches set them on fire
>He's not a martial!

>>52418937
Definitely. Looking through it... The only two stances that aren't basically feats are the 5th and 8th level stances. 5th just makes you an AoO machine and 8th makes you more SAD (at the point where SADness stops mattering as much)

>> No.52418998

>>52418889
>Throwing mad shade at best boy
Do I need to remind you of what Ike did when he visited the states?

>> No.52419018

>>52418933
So that means that even the fireball "blasters" are martials?
:thinking:

>> No.52419054

>>52418928
>>52418979
I'm not saying not falling under my strict definition of martial is always a bad thing. I just don't want to be supernatural, just interact with the supernatural and own supernatural things.

>> No.52419064

I want to be a fly on the wall when Vult takes Cashmere and Gloriana on a ride on the rape train!

>> No.52419077

>>52419018
That may have been extreme, but if all your doing is tossing fireball/system equivalent your definitely bordering closer to "martial" spectrum of things than your caster kin.
>>52419054
You're looking for "mundane" or "extraordinary" then. I kinda agree, there needs to be more options for badass normal types.

>> No.52419096

>>52419064
I want to place literally everyone who has posted in this general in the past year in a gas chamber. Myself included.


We all need to hang.

>> No.52419099

>>52419077

What about Golden Lion, Scarlet Throne, Primal Fury, Iron Tortoise and Steel Serpent?

>> No.52419108 [SPOILER] 

>>52418998
Ike's WORST boy. I will thrown a goddamn solar eclipse at that boy.

Well, worst outside of Marth.

>> No.52419109

>>52419054
then don't use supernatural disciplines?

>> No.52419120

>>52419099
Steel Serpent is supernatural. It relies on ki and chakras.
>Golden Lion
Too niche
>Scarlet Throne
>Primal Fury
Don't do enough exciting/versatile things and are of dubious balance
>Iron Tortoise
Too niche, shields still suck ass.

>> No.52419134

>>52419109
That's the plan. I don't like them and won't use them. Other people are free to.

>> No.52419143

>>52419134
then stop bitching

>> No.52419185

>>52419143
Make me.

>> No.52419190

>>52418919
That's a lot more fair than 'ban anything that doesn't fit my narrow definition of what any given class should do reeee'

>> No.52419214

>>52419077
>>52419134
>"b-but I just want to be the mundane, not ban it!"
>all this rapid, rapid, RAPID backpedaling

Then you should have fucking said so to begin with, then you wouldn't have had to worry about being retarded.

>>52419120
>people give you the mundane stuff
>you complain about it

Well then what the fuck do you want?

>> No.52419215

What's the most extreme re-fluff you've ever seen?
How much re-fluffing is too much?
How do I refluff inquisitor if I don't want to be god powered priest hunter man?

>> No.52419235

Alrighty folks, I finally got around to it- the first mechanical option for Blood Mountain, the Frontier Huntmaster, an initiating slayer archetype. It's pretty much just a conversion of the Myrmidon, with a focus on specializing into one style and being good at that style. I might get around to Int-based deeds that make them good at hunting and analyzing others, but I've had a bit of a long day and just want to chill out.

https://sites.google.com/site/bloodymountainpath/mechanical-information/archetypes-and-templates/frontier-huntmaster-slayer-archetype

>> No.52419238

>>52419185
Ok.

Where you at bae? I'll bring my gear.

>> No.52419242

>>52419214
I'm not him, Path of War's mundane options aren't very good or are broken.

>> No.52419255

>>52419143
I just entered in to discuss disciplines I don't like.

Really it's not so much the disciplines I don't like, it's more the fact that at its base PoW is not designed to interact well with characters who aren't PoW.

I've talked about this before I think. The main problem is not offense, which most people seem to focus on, but defense. Counters, as they exist currently, warp combat around them because easy access to immediate action defense puts anyone with initiating into a far better positions on the defensive than essentially anything in Paizo's line.

If you have a party with both initiators and non-initiators it will either end with the initiators not breaking a sweat on the defense, or the initiators feeling threatened and the non-initiators dying.

I feel this particularly in saving throw based abilities as saving throws are the single most important practical defense I don't count stuff like displacement as practical defense due to not only how easily it is worked around but also its limited usage, as well as the fact it doesn't really help on the saving throw front.

I don't particularly like the design space counters occupy.

Also the fact no initiator really addresses out of combat utility in a meaningful manner.

>> No.52419269

>>52419215
I literally never refluff. Ever.

>> No.52419279

>>52419214
>Then you should have fucking said so to begin with, then you wouldn't have had to worry about being retarded.
I'm a different guy, I entered into the discussion late. I was never in favor of banning, I just don't like them.

>> No.52419288

>>52419255
You're supposed to be playing PoW + Spheres, dummy.

>> No.52419289

>>52419255
>Counters, as they exist currently, warp combat around them because easy access to immediate action defense puts anyone with initiating into a far better positions on the defensive than essentially anything in Paizo's line.
Literally one a turn. Don't have the big bad blow their fucking load right away if they know the enemy is an initiator. It's not that hard
>out of combat utility
Creative maneuver use does this just fine. But again, most of that is locked behind the supernatural.

>> No.52419313

>>52419288
>Spheres
>not Psionics
Nice meme.

>> No.52419343

>>52419313
Psionics are good, but has remnants of bad systems in it. Spheres are pure.

>> No.52419370

>>52419343
No it's not. Spheres has it's own problems that are a lot harder to cut out than the remnants of bad in Psionics.

>> No.52419379

>>52419289
>Literally one a turn. Don't have the big bad blow their fucking load right away if they know the enemy is an initiator. It's not that hard
That doesn't address what I am talking about at all.

It means that you're to a "geek the mage" scenario that enemies specifically target to try and overwhelm the initiator where as any non-initiator under the same duress would be far more overwhelmed. From a GMing perspective you are able to do this, but through a "geek the mage" scenario. This especially does not make sense if enemies do not have knowledge (martial).

One can not tell apart a Fighter and a Warder of sight generally as well, in a similar fashion to "Druid or a Homeless Man". Encounter design begins to rely on meta knowledge for anyone but those already familiar with the party and their abilities.

>Creative maneuver use does this just fine. But again, most of that is locked behind the supernatural.
It is small step in the right direction, but it really is a small step. They have essentially no class feature support for OOC and creative maneuver use is a small bandaid over a pretty wide chasm.

>>52419288
Spheres isn't great on the defense either.

>> No.52419382

>>52419343
If psionics has the remnants of a bad system, spheres has all the hallmarks of an unfinished first draft.

There are so many things in it that should have been better thought out.

>> No.52419410

>>52419343
>Spheres are pure.
Yeah, pure shit.

>> No.52419417

>>52419410
Hilarious and original!

>> No.52419419

>>52419313

I see no issue with Spheres/Psionics/PoW. I usually encourage spheres over Psionics, primarily because I like customization and the LEGO-style of it, but that's just me.

>>52419370
What are the particular "bad things" that exist in Psionics, if I may ask?


>>52419382
Doubly-so, what are the issues with spheres? Should /pfg/ compile a big errata list that fixes spheres, psionics, and path of war?

>> No.52419434

>>52419419
We should make a big errata, but it's 4chan so we won't.

>> No.52419438

>>52419419
>/pfg/
>doing anything but bitching

>> No.52419452

>>52419379
It's not that everyone else is bad at defense, it's that Initiators have defense at all. There's nothing wrong with that.

>> No.52419455

>>52419438
Hey!
We've managed to get a dozen games running!

>> No.52419456

>>52419419
>Doubly-so, what are the issues with spheres? Should /pfg/ compile a big errata list that fixes spheres, psionics, and path of war?
A good 99% of /pfg/ can't actually design abilities to save their lives.

The arguments with DHB show that off quite a bit.

>> No.52419471

>>52419455
DOZENS OF THEM

>> No.52419483

>>52419419
>What are the particular "bad things" that exist in Psionics, if I may ask?
Long range teleportation, Planeshifting, Genesis, reality revision.

So you know, Powers with direct vanician analogues.

There are some unique problems. Psicristals vs Deep Meditation(literally no reason to choose the latter over the former despite needing more investment) And Psychic Reformation.

All in all, it's pretty fucking great though. Only 3pp I would recommend wholeheartedly.

>> No.52419484

>>52419455
>running
We'll see, we'll see.

>> No.52419491

>>52419452
I'm not sure what you mean here. The best defense in Paizo are the Barbarian and the Paladin. Both have a lot of defensive class feature support.

Then you have someone like, let's say, a rogue.

Put a Rogue next to a Stalker and compare their defense. At a glance from an NPC you could easily mistake one for the other, but a Stalker is FAR more difficult to get to fail a saving throw.

>> No.52419521

>>52419491
That's not really a problem in a game where one failed saving throw can be a ticket to death or being shut out of a fight completely.

>> No.52419534

>>52419242
>>52419279
Fair enough. I'm personally not totally sold on PoW, but it's still enjoyable enough and it has its place if everybody's on board with it. And they're willing to work through any issues with the GM. A lot of my gripes come from how stances, boosts, and counters just feel... Bloating. The premise is cool, but it doesn't play very nice with a lot of the base system.

>>52419491
>comparing Rogue to literally anything

The Rogue, even unchained occupies a terrible niche known as "we didn't fucking cost any of its features properly". You're better off comparing a Stalker with an Investigator.

>> No.52419535

>>52419491
If you're using base classes, you HAVE to give them the initiator archetypes

>> No.52419539

>>52419471
No, just one dozen.

>>52419484
Exactly fourteen by my count have had at least one session and haven't been declared dead.

>> No.52419580

>>52419483
I agree. I've never had an issue with Psionics. What's got me curious is Spheres of Power and why some on /pfg/ have issues with it. I /personally/ have not but I would like to know what others have seen in it that would cause alarm.

>> No.52419584

>>52419534
>>52419535
>The Rogue, even unchained occupies a terrible niche known as "we didn't fucking cost any of its features properly". You're better off comparing a Stalker with an Investigator.
No I'm more using the rogue as an example here because an NPC can't tell a rogue and a stalker apart at a glance. My example of the "Druid or a Homeless Guy" scenario and what it means narratively in encounters.

>> No.52419628

>>52419288
PoW wasn't designed with Spheres in mind, sod the hell off.

And it also doesn't address the issue of 'use it or fuck off and die'

>> No.52419638

>>52419584
And? What does that have to do with anything?

>> No.52419641

>>52419580
Among pfg, the big issues (outside editing and unclear rules at times) are the Weather sphere being overpowered, and the Conjuration sphere being overpowered. There are also some Destruction builds that put out a huge amount of damage, and Life can restore even better than a cleric. I can also say that among the people I play with is the issue that SoP doesn't believe in level minimums - flying from level 1, teleportation from level 1, etc.

>> No.52419643

>>52419584
senpai, an NPC can't tell a lot of classes apart because classes are game terms. What an NPC should be figuring out by looking at the two is trying to recognize "which of these is that famous dude who can do crazy bullshit?" if anything.

>> No.52419662 [DELETED] 

>>52419641
>Conjuration
>underpowered

Wait, it is? How? is it just because you spent a lot of talents to make a cost-ineffective animal companion/eidolon?

>> No.52419666

>>52419580
>>52419419
To me it's not so much about spheres breaking things (though that's definitely a thing that happens) as it just being not very fun to build in many cases.

Anemic class features in half the classes, many spheres being glorified sets of combat options with no fun utility or interesting thematics, needing to invest heavily in something just to get it to damn work the way you want it, and very little satisfying progression.
It can do a job but I wouldn't want to play many sphere classes or variants in a long term campaign.

>> No.52419667

>>52419580
In general
>some spheres are kinda shite outside of drawback abuse for 1 or two choice effects.
>some talents are a bit too strong for how early you can get them online(Warp for example)
>not a system problem, but the book is poorly organized
>the MSB/CL distinction is kinda useless
>MSD doesn't come up often, if at all.
All in all, my opinion is similar to Path of War. It has issues, a lot of issues, but at the end of the day does more good things for the game than bad.

>> No.52419673

>>52419628
I've been using them together for a long time and haven't had an issue.

>> No.52419681

What is the ugliest country in Golarion?

>> No.52419685

>>52419641
>There are also some Destruction builds that put out a huge amount of damage
I don't really see the "do damage" sphere doing damage as a problem.

>> No.52419696

>>52419681
Wherever your waifu comes from

>> No.52419697

I want to make a character that focuses on his animal companion, so that leaves me with Hunter or Druid. Between the two of these, which would make for a better scout character? I hear Hunter tapers off in later levels so would it be better to be a buffing Druid? I honestly don't care too much for spellcasting and the flavor of Hunter goes better with the character. Thinking of an archer with a Spider animal companion. Or should I just be a ranger?

>> No.52419703

>>52419662
I said Conjuration was considered overpowered by many. Mostly because you can dump all your talents into it, as you mentioned.

>> No.52419704

>>52419628
They literally don't even interact in any meaningfully don't interact in anyway.

>> No.52419718

>>52419638
>>52419643
What I am talking about is you have several classes someone can't tell apart, but with such different defense that one must be targeted more than the other in order to give both a reasonable challenge.

We have the rogue and the stalker again. The stalker, to be given a reasonable challenge to his defense, needs a lot more targeting than the rogue. Like anon said here >>52419289, in order to challenge both you need to focus the initiator. The problem is it does not make sense for the vast majority of enemies to focus the initiator.

Many enemies don't know who the PCs are, do not have knowledge (martial) to know how initiation works, or are simply animals/oozes/undead/constructs, who actually can't consider it.

Therefore narratively you run into the issue of the "Geek the Mage" scenario, where you focus on the Stalker, makes no sense.

From a GMing perspective you sure can just have enemies do it anyway, but it is disingenuous.

>> No.52419722

>>52419696

Umm, could you delete this please, honey? Thanks!

>> No.52419730

>>52419685
I was thinking of 2hu's build. I don't personally have an issue with it, but I think some people do.

>> No.52419738

>>52419718
>Many enemies don't know who the PCs are, do not have knowledge (martial) to know how initiation works
If initiation is a thing in your world than why wouldn't they have knowledge martial?

>> No.52419739

>>52419722
No

:^)

>> No.52419758

>>52419681
Geb! Their leader is ugly and so are the rest of them! Look at this ugly guy! If he wasn't a ghost he'd probably have 5 Cha!

>> No.52419760

>>52419718
You can't tell most classes apart just by looking at the character, dumbass. Enemies will have to get punished for a round or two before they realize that they're dealing with a real badass.

>> No.52419762

>>52419730
Some people are retarded. 2hu's Des build is potent but isn't really broken until holy smite comes into play imo, that's just a bad ability.

>> No.52419769

>>52419703
I misread, probably because I was in a hurry.
Conjuration's biggest thing to me is how unless you only have ONE companion, you have to sink too many talents in it for it to feel like anything but a total burden

>> No.52419774

>>52419739

And here I was having a good afternoon until THIS ASSHOLE showed up.

>> No.52419775

>>52419738
>If initiation is a thing in your world than why wouldn't they have knowledge martial?
The same reason not every single person is trained in Spellcraft. Just because someone exists doesn't mean that everyone knows about it.

>> No.52419776

>>52419641
Conjuration being powerful is the nature of manipulating action economy.

Destruction in some cases being able to put out massive damage is an outlier caused partly by the Sorcerer archetype, (and all those archetypes are kinda shitty), and partly by the nature of how Metamagic works (But doing it will eat all your spell points in a single round)

Life restoring better than a Cleric is an anti-problem, because until you get Heal, healing magic is fucking garbage. Clerics don't heal any better than anyone else with access to the same spells anyway.

Early access to certain abilities isn't a problem since it lets you have your gimmick from level 1, in a lot of cases. Also you can only fly from level one if you take VERY specific options. Like, if you're Small, take the trait that makes you one size smaller for the purpose of TK, and take Powerful Telekinesis.

Weather's a shit though yeah. Shoulda been part of Nature.

>> No.52419793

PoW wasn't designed with spheres in mind.

Was Spheres designed with PoW in mind?

>> No.52419794

>>52419704
I was saying that 'PoW is okay because you're meant to use Spheres too' is a terrible argument.

>> No.52419799

>>52419760
I don't think you're understanding what I am saying at all. I'm saying that is exactly the problem.

If the encounter is designed to threaten the badass if the enemies pick wrong in those 1-2 rounds they take to figure out who that person is, and instead target our example rogue, the example rogue has now died.

If it is made so the example rogue can survive than the example stalker was never under a threat in the first place.

Are you not actually reading my posts?

>> No.52419800

>>52419774
It was a stealth compliment anon!

Your waifu leaving her home country to come to you has dropped its national beauty index down to the bottom for lack of her!

>> No.52419802

>>52419775
No, but if I have spells. I probably have some ranks in spell craft.

If I fight warriors a lot why wouldn't I have ranks in Knowledge Martial? It would be like being a "dragon hunter" that doesn't have ranks in arcana.

Know thy enemy

>> No.52419826

>>52419800

>> No.52419839

>>52419799
You also missed the part where you should pretty much never be using non-initiator martials in an initiator party. Non-initiating martials are purely for NPCs.

>> No.52419840

>>52419794
Oh right. Sorry then.
>>52419793
No. But it's a moot point because they don't interact meaningfully. I don't even know why the anon that started this line of conversation said that.

>> No.52419848

>>52419802
Because not every enemy the party will face regularly fights initiators. Initiators are as uncommon as spellcasters, or PCs in general (more so actually because there is no NPC initiator class).

Initiation is more uncommon than spellcasting because there is no such thing as an NPC initiator.

Also not everyone has the opportunity for a formal education in warfare, which is what Knowledge Martial represents.

Excepting every enemy to have both spell craft and knowledge martial to be able to identify the party's abilities on sight is highly unrealistic.

It also does not address the myriad of mindless enemies that exist.

>> No.52419862

>>52419826
>letting another man compliment your waifu
End him before he drives you apart you fool!

>> No.52419874

>>52419799
Why the fuck is there a core rogue in the party? Why is it not Unchained? Why is it not a Hidden Blade?

>> No.52419877

>>52419862

Nah it's okay, the anon's a raging sword-swallowing queer.

>> No.52419879

>>52419848
>Because not every enemy the party will face regularly fights initiators. Initiators are as uncommon as spellcasters, or PCs in general (more so actually because there is no NPC initiator class).
In your setting maybe. No where in the rules does it state initiators need to be rare.

>> No.52419887

>>52419839
>You also missed the part where you should pretty much never be using non-initiator martials in an initiator party. Non-initiating martials are purely for NPCs.

The thing is it extends to more than just non-initiating martials. An alchemist, magus, and inquisitor also have extremely poor defense compared to an initiator.

Instead the example could be an inquisitor and an ordained defender warder, again two people who you can't tell apart at a glance, one of which dies in a situation where the other hasn't broken a sweat.

The defense of initiators are higher than every non-initiator and are only really approached by Paladins focused on defense.

>> No.52419920

>>52419887
Magus is the only thing in there that does fact become a joke with initiating being a thing. Alchemists and Inquisitors can both become initiators fairly painlessly.

>> No.52419929

>>52419887
I really want to know what situation this is where PCs are just randomly dying and leaving the Initiators with no scratches.

>> No.52419930

>>52419887
>inquisitor and an ordained defender warder, again two people who you can't tell apart at a glance
One's in bad ass vanhellsing robes and the other is in full plate?

>> No.52419940

>>52419874
I am using it as an example. I could instead say an Inquisitor and a Warlord. An Alchemist and a Warder. The Rogue/Stalker were just an example.

>>52419879
>In your setting maybe. No where in the rules does it state initiators need to be rare.
So PC class intiators are highly common to the point that your average bandit can identify a specific maneuver on sight? I'm not saying you're not allowed to do this but you are moving towards an initiator tippy-verse.

>> No.52419953

TELL ME ABOUT BREVOY, I WANNA JOIN THAT SHINY BLING GAME BUT I DON'T KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE NORTH.

>> No.52419967

>>52419953
please stop yelling at me

>> No.52419972

>>52419887
I want you to realize that you're having a problem with combat specialists being much more durable in combat than others.

>> No.52419973

>>52419839
There STILL aren't initiating options for the other full-bab classes, and apart from the Kineticist, none of the Occult classes are covered. Off the top of my head...

>Slayer
>Bloodrager
>Swashbuckler
>Gunslinger
>Cavalier
>Antipaladin
>Hunter
>Skald
>Magus (how though?)

What I'd /like/ to see are initiating options for, say, the Occultist, Mesmerist, Medium, and Spiritualist, but the only one I'm counting on there is the Occultist, because they're the official "gish" class of that book.

And don't say taking Martial Training 1-6 is an option- I've considered it, but it isn't the same as actually having an initiating option. I admit an Occultist with it would probably be pretty badass, same deal with a Mesmerist that knows Veiled Moon or a Spiritualist and Unquiet Grave.

>> No.52419976

>>52419953
JUST MAKE SOMEONE FROM NUMERIA, GALT, THE RIVER KINGDOMS, OR MENDEV!

>> No.52419978

>>52419929
its not happening.

>> No.52419982

>>52419929
Any situation with a save or suck really where an initiator can replacing a saving throw with a skill check.

>>52419930
Many inquisitors wear fullplate. Again these are just examples.

>>52419920
The ability to become an initiator does not make it play nice with initiation if you are required to become one to keep up on the defensive front.

>> No.52419990

>>52419874
>Why is he not an initiator REEEEE

Maybe he just doesn't like initiating?

>> No.52419991

>>52419940
How is "people who fight for a living know martial arts" tippy verse?

>> No.52419995

>>52419967

BUT YOU'RE SO FAR AWAY! HOW ELSE ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO HEAR ME?

>>52419976

BUT THAT'S BOOOOOOORING.

>> No.52419999

>>52419973
As per the forums, none of those guys are getting initiating.

>> No.52420024

Incidentally

The ability to get initiating does not mean Initiating is balanced against everything else. Just like 'you can take levels in wizard' is not an excuse for wizards.

>> No.52420026

>>52419990
Don't nerf yourself even more by playing a core rogue in a PoW game.

>> No.52420028

>>52419982
>many inquisitors wear full plate
They don't even get heavy armor natively.

>> No.52420029

>>52419995
please stop

>> No.52420041

>>52419999
Why, though? Do you have a link to that particular post? That honestly seems rather bizarre- I /like/ the Slayer and Hunter and Bloodrager, and wouldn't mind seeing them get initiating options. I guess I'll have to homebrew it.

>> No.52420044

>>52419982
you may be retarded

>> No.52420049

>>52419995
Brevoy is boring.

Like it and Taldor, Molthune, and Nirmanthas are the most boring milquetoasts regions of the world.

>> No.52420051

>>52419972
The thing is initiators are FAR more durable than not initiators.

The most damning example is a Creation Zealot.

>>52419991
It's more "every bandit is identify PC level martial disciplines on sight". The same thing as everyone being trained in spellcraft is highly silly. It means that initiators are so common than literally everyone knows how they work.

>>52420028
No they don't but often you take the feat to put it on. But like I was saying it is again just examples. There are medium armored initiators as well.

>> No.52420058

>>52419995
HOW IS A TECHBARB, ANCAP, REVOLUTIONARY, OR CRUSADER BORING!?

>> No.52420061

>>52420024
It's different, because a lot of classes can get it natively through archetypes. You don't have to do complicated MC for most of the core classes.

>> No.52420062

>>52419995
Qanon, is that you?

>> No.52420070

>>52420026
>In a PoW game.

Because it being allowed at all makes the game entirely about PoW.

OH WAIT, IT DOES.

>> No.52420081

>>52420044
I'm not actually seeing what your argument in besides just name calling.

>>52420061
How is it different though? Being required to take something does not make it in any way balanced even if taking it is easy.

>> No.52420091

>>52419953
There's not much to tell, really. It's bland, boring Game-of-Thrones-lite with "muh noble houses" and "muh swords".

The only people who really care about it are anons who want to be more Polish than thou because it's vaguely Slavic in a few of its naming conventions and they jerk off to the Witcher.

A better idea would be to play someone from Numeria, Galt, or Mendev. Maybe Kyonin or Taldor instead, those are right along the same river that feeds into Brevoy.

>> No.52420092

>>52420070
Yeah? PoW is designed to replace standard martials entirely, dude.

>> No.52420106

>>52420081
it wasn't an argument i was insulting you

>> No.52420110

>>52420061
That still doesn't help. There's lots of reasons to not be an initiator, from the archetypes not being compatible to it not fitting your vision for the character, to just not liking the system, and people going 'well you coulda been an initiator' doesn't help.

>> No.52420119

>>52420091
>A better idea would be to play someone from Numeria, Galt, or Mendev.

>Generic le technology land
>Viva la Revolution ya ya ya
>Progressive Kingdom of diversity and demons

>> No.52420124

Ok, let's take the Magus, a heavily armored guy, and the Warder, a heavily armored guy. Put them next to each other. When their defense is compared the Magus is laughably lack luster.

>>52420106
Well ok then.

>>52420092
Even then it still outclasses the defense of 6th level casters to an enormous degree.

>> No.52420149

>>52420081
>How is it different though? Being required to take something does not make it in any way balanced even if taking it is easy.


See

>>52420092

PoW is supposed to replace all the core martials with more interesting and competent classes and systems. If you're using content that was supposed to be replaced, that's your own issue.

>>52420124
Magus had shit tier defense to start.

>> No.52420160

>>52420110
For every vision of a martial that doesn't fit or falls behind with PoW included, there's another vision of a fun and competent martial that can't be easily realized without PoW.

If you don't like it, play a game that doesn't use it.

>> No.52420167

>>52420149
Content being designed to be more powerful than existing material is only good when existing material was lackluster.

The fact that PoW outclasses material that ISN'T lackluster means it's a PROBLEM.

>> No.52420172

>>52420119
>Brevoy

>Right next to a spaceship crash site
>Just a couple weeks' journey from Doom-land
>Lies on an important river route
>Still insists on being just le medieval land

>> No.52420176

>>52420091
>>52419976

Why do I get the feeling the DM is going to pick people from Brevoy, and people here are going to get upset at that.

>> No.52420190

>>52420160
>You're making your character wrong

>> No.52420196

>>52420124
Magus's entire design is a clusterfuck that has been thoroughly discussed. PoW being better at the Magus's job is a symptom of the Magus getting utterly shafted six ways to sunday by the base game. Probably because the magus iconic is this unlikeable yet "most handsome male iconic" according to some paizo employees fuck.

>> No.52420201

>>52420124
The Magus is squishy as fuck even by itself, though. I'm not sure what you expected.

>> No.52420207

>>52420124
Another thing i want to say. I don't think every class should be the same amount of durability. No, some classes should be better on defense than others. What I am saying is initiators, particularly the Zealot, outpace others on defense too much.

What I attribute it to in mainly the design space counter occupy and how easy and reliable immediate action defense is extremely strong, particularly on the zealot with move action recovery.

>>52420149
>Magus had shit tier defense to start.
They also outclass the Alchemist and the Inquisitor.

>>52420160
You are literally just saying that unless you play PoW you shouldn't expect to be competent. And that character concepts that don't use PoW are flawed. That's an asinine stance.

>> No.52420212

>>52420172

>Spaceship crash site is a barren wasteland controlled by barbarians and tech-priests, and even if they carved through them they wouldn't know what the fuck to do with the spaceship
>Doom-Land is a hellhole and horrifying in every sense of the word
>The river route *is* exploited for trade, I don't see what the point of that is
>Brevoy is le medieval land because it doesn't have anything around it to suggest it should be something else

>> No.52420222

>>52420196
>Seltiyel was initially the iconic Eldritch Knight

>> No.52420225

>>52420176
Given the tone of the game and general idea the LFG is espousing (and the anime pic on its front page), I highly doubt that's going to be the main criteria.

GM seems more likely to pick profiles that are fun without being game-breaking.

>> No.52420228

>>52420167
Guess what? Most classes don't have anything to speak of for defenses. That's a problem with those classes.

>> No.52420234

>>52420201
>>52420196
Even then there is no paizo class that comes close to matching an initiator on the defense. Even then Zealots and Warders stand another step above other initiators on the defense to the point comparing an Inquisitor to a Warder when it comes to what can challenge them defensively puts you into two entirely different schools of encounter design.

>> No.52420251

>>52420207
>They also outclass the Alchemist and the Inquisitor.
And? Are those supposed to be defensive powerhouses? No? Moving on.

>> No.52420259

>>52420212
You just listed a half-dozen things that should influence Brevoy. What do you want to bet nobody is ever going to use those because Brevoy only appeals to people who get it up from their fantasy game being aggressively mundane?

>> No.52420263

>>52420222
>yo guys we actually made our first new class, who should the iconic be?
>fuck I dunno, just slap this ugly fuck on it
>are you sure? he doesn't even have art using any of the class's gimmicks
>nah, you used male pronouns for it and we can't be assed to design another dude, ship it

>> No.52420270

Are my players stupid? Because I've never really had this big of an issue hitting PoW people with attacks and debuffs.

>> No.52420281

>>52420228
And see, that's a problem that PoW simply doesn't play nice in combat with any paizo class because of the defense disparity. It forces people to cater to one or the other if they ever end up in the same party save for a few edge cases.

>> No.52420296

>>52420172
I kind of hate this stupid grabbag setting sometimes. I know I *should* love it, there should be something for everyone, but a setting so obviously "whatever you fucking want" just makes everything seem pointless.

>> No.52420299

>>52420259
Isn't there a clock work great axe you get from a Numerian barbarian invasion in one of the books, functions as a mundane +2 admantine weapon or something?

>> No.52420308

>>52420251
It outclasses the Paladin by a laughable degree, which is the biggest Paizo defensive power house.

>>52420270
In much the same way wizards are not always a problem initiators are not always a problem. It depends on what counters they choose and if they actually choose good ones. Also how they play their character for if they use boosts liberally and waste those immediate actions.

>> No.52420351

>>52420207
>And that character concepts that don't use PoW are flawed.

No, I'm saying that excluding character concepts because they don't use PoW is no worse than excluding character concepts that need it.

>You are literally just saying that unless you play PoW you shouldn't expect to be competent.

That one's true, no pretenses there.
Ultimately if it's a choice between everyone using it or everyone not using it, the former makes more interesting gameplay.

>> No.52420358

>>52420228
PoW is designed for a game that is not Pathfinder.

It doesn't play well with any existing material, and won't play well with other 3pp that isn't also initiating or otherwise overtuned.

>> No.52420362

>>52420281
That's okay. Paizo classes suck!

>> No.52420374

>>52420299
Pretty sure you just had a good GM giving you some extra fluff for that thing. Numeria barely gets a mention in the campaign as written, except for one mindfuck device that's designed to have about 3 charges left.

>> No.52420377

>>52420358
Path of War plays just fine with Spheres and Psionics.

It really doesn't play well with other martial content though.

>> No.52420393

I still want to hear this situation where you can't challenge an initiator at all without destroying the rest of the party.

>> No.52420395

>ITT people argue that one extreme end of the spectrum doesn't play nice with the other extreme end

WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT

>> No.52420402

>>52420351
>Ultimately if it's a choice between everyone using it or everyone not using it, the former makes more interesting gameplay.

But then the issue still remains of 'I don't want to use PoW'

>>52420377
That was mostly where I was coming from. Anything that attempts to fill the same role of 'dude who is beatstick' is going to be left in the dust by initiators.

>> No.52420405

>>52420374
No I read the book. You get a clock work something from Numeria. I barely played Kingmaker past book 3 before quitting because it wasn't fun.

>> No.52420421

>>52420395
More than one extreme end doesn't play nice with 3/4ths of the spectrum.

>> No.52420423

Hey /pfg/, what makes a good sorcerer?

>> No.52420431

>>52420393
it tends to be the hyper-damage initiator that nukes everything with broken blade oneshots shit that will ruin a normal martial

>> No.52420435

>>52420402
>That was mostly where I was coming from. Anything that attempts to fill the same role of 'dude who is beatstick' is going to be left in the dust by initiators.
That's the fucking point of PoW, dingus. Regular beatsticks were ranged from boring and ineffective to boring and does a lot of damage.

>> No.52420440

>>52419681
>>52419681
Five King's Mountains. It's just an ugly rock full of ugly holes full of ugly people. Daralathyxl needs to wake the fuck up.

>> No.52420448

>>52420423
arcane bloodline you're done.

>> No.52420456

>>52420402
>But then the issue still remains of 'I don't want to use PoW'

Play another game.
Like anon said above, for every person who doesn't want PoW there's another that's sick of 1pp martials.
Don't push yourself onto them.

>> No.52420459

>>52420431
Well no fucking shit.

>> No.52420460

>>52420395
Well most of the time until somebody points out that the guy is the spectrum end people will see it as what most people think because, well, vocal minority and all that

>> No.52420467

What's the best way to become a good ol fashioned greatsword/pike Landschnekt?

No Path of War :(

>> No.52420474

>>52420393
Any caster who uses save or suck spells. Any enemy who is an initiator.

>> No.52420488

>>52420402
Then don't play in a game with initiators, boom, problem solved.

>> No.52420497

>>52420459
good reason to ban broken blade desu

>>52420474
lol

>> No.52420504

>>52420467
Slayer
Barbarian

>> No.52420511

>>52420467
Cavalier just got an archetype called disciple of the pike.

>> No.52420518

>>52420448
But I already chose Impossible as my bloodline.

>> No.52420537

>>52420518
Then change it.

>> No.52420549

>>52420518
Pick some not terrible spells you're good to go

Spell selection is the key to success

>> No.52420597

>>52420474
So option one are spells that effectively instantly win fights or classes designed to fight really well.

No, I don't give a fuck about your complaint

>> No.52420619 [SPOILER] 

Tell me, /pfg/, what does your character's mother look like?

>> No.52420627

>>52420619
MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAD

>> No.52420641

>>52420619
Much the same as her. A middling height, rather lanky half-elf, though with less of a tan.

>> No.52420642

>>52420619
Cute blond musclegirl mom who took care of him
His daddy was a drow. They weren't in love

>> No.52420646

>>52420281
Honestly I just hand out maneuver-like 1/encounter action items, sorta like ToB's ones, pretty much freely. If you can't use martial maneuvers normally I can at least give you a stupid armband of countering or immediate-action response stuff. It's surprisingly effective, just giving them one or two things to be basically functional or get their full-attacks up and running.

Only catch: true initiators have to eat one of their maneuvers-readied if they want to use these items, and non-martials can't have more of them than the maneuvers-readied of a non-martial progression (3~7 based on level). Never really comes up.

>> No.52420653

>>52420619
Biological Mother: Fairly generic Chelish woman
Adopted Mother: Fairly generic Varisian woman.
Also this
>>52420627

>> No.52420666

>>52420440
>Daralathyxl needs to wake the fuck up.

God DAMMIT I LOVE THAT GUY.

Susurex, Daralathyxl, even the old White in the World's Edge Mountains. I can't get enough of them.

>> No.52420668

>>52420619
It's a mystery since I never mention family.

>> No.52420686

>>52420619
A child molester

>> No.52420808

>>52420597
Yes the two you need to challenge initiator's defenses and blow out Paizo character's defenses. I'm still not seeing any point you're trying to make.

>> No.52420810

>>52419953
There's like seven pages of good lore about Brevoy in one of the threads on that game. You should look at that.

But if you want the TL;DR, a few hundred years ago you had two small nations called Issia and Rostland. Issia was kind of a shithole where nothing would grow but they eeked out a living with rich mineral wealth and good trade. Rostland had more verdant fields, and also something called the Aldori Swordlords. These mofos became a thing when a Rostland noble bet his station on winning a duel and lost, then ran off to train in the mountains for years before coming back to kick everyone's ass and take his nobility back. He was the first Swordlord, and would go on to train more.

Then one day the Fire Na- I mean a man named Choral the Conqueror came. He conquered. Issia pretty much submitted right away, with the noble Surtova family thinking that by doing so they could get in good with their new overlord. Rostland wasn't going to bitch out like that, especially since the Swordlords are really cocky. Unfortunately, Choral tricked the Swordlords into overextending themselves by making it look like they had him backed into a corner, and then unleashed two red dragons all on them. Rostland surrendered. That's where Brevoy comes from.

That was like 200 years ago but tensions between Rostland and Issia still run high. The royal family, Rogarvia, managed to keep things running smoothly all those years by sometimes pacifying and sometimes brutally putting down any rebellious elements. Also, Rogarvia was seated in the middle of Rostland, to make them feel better (or maybe to rub it in their faces). But then about 12 years ago the royal family suddenly disappeared. Literally into thin air. Everyone panicked for a bit until the Surtovas came in and were like "Hey yeah since Rogarvia is gone we kings now." Unfortunately the Surtovas are way shittier at keeping people in line and so the nation has been slipping closer and closer to civil war every year.

>> No.52420833

If we're talking about defenses, a fighter can get good AC, good all saves, and still get very high damage (higher than non-BB abuse initiators even) using AWT and AAT.

>> No.52420861

>>52420810
>Unfortunately the Surtovas are way shittier at keeping people in line and so the nation has been slipping closer and closer to civil war every year.

>You will never fuck Noleski's uppity sister and help the party's busty witch court the young king

>> No.52420869

>>52420810
But what if he can't access those threads? As a good, upstanding anon of logic, love and understanding, shouldn't you provide screenshots or pastebins of those files?

>> No.52420883

>>52420833
Heads up you still got your name on.

>> No.52420888

>>52420833
If we're talking about namefagging, you need to stop.

>> No.52420892

>>52420883
Oops, sorry.

>> No.52420903

>>52420883
Thanks I forgot to take it off. We cool now?

>>52420888
So not cool now.

>> No.52420905

>>52420808
You don't need those to challenge an initiator. They have limited maneuvers readied at once, and they're not all counters (usually). It's really inefficient to reload after every counter, so I don't get where this comes from

>> No.52420919

>>52420892
>>52420903
It's okay, I just wouldn't want you putting a name to your shipping or roryposting by accident. No one deserves that.

>> No.52420926

>>52420919
God knows that

>> No.52420951

>>52420196
I'm not sure anything drawn by Wayne Renolds can be accurately called "handsome".

>> No.52421011

>>52420686
>clericoffolca.jpg

>> No.52421040

>>52420951

Speaking of which, I need artwork of handsome men!

>> No.52421099

>>52421040
I need artwork of young but ugly/unattractive men!

>> No.52421112

>>52420619
A right cunt of an Annis Hag.

>> No.52421131

>>52421099
Ask DHB!

>> No.52421136

>>52420869
You best not be trying to work a Charm Person spell on me, boy.

>> No.52421145

>>52421099

Just take a picture of yourself, anon.

>> No.52421146

>>52421112
Anus hags

hehe

>> No.52421159

>>52421040
>>52421099
And I'd like to find art of male tieflings that doesn't look like it belongs in a 4e book, but I'm going to have to settle with "this is what his armor looks like" until I can find something presentable.

>> No.52421165

>>52421136

>> No.52421175

This conversation bores me

Post big girls ..................4u.......

>> No.52421190

>>52421175

Hey guys, who else likes to inlay their armor or describe it with decoration and filigree?

>> No.52421194

Blerg, how is it only Tuesday /pfg/?

>> No.52421201

>>52421175
How about no?

>> No.52421202

>>52421165
Here's artwork of an old and unattractive man, which nobody asked for but everybody gets.

>> No.52421213

>>52421194
Because you touch yourself at night

>> No.52421215

>>52421175

>> No.52421217

>>52421201

how about yes

>> No.52421223

>>52421202

>That
>unattractive

Umm... Okay?

>> No.52421226

>>52421202
I like it when they include bits of common vernacular and turns of phrase that are common to a region or group. It's a small touch that really brings out some personality, IMO.

>> No.52421228

>>52421194

It's actually Friday-I just changed all the calendars to make everyone think it's Tuesday.

>> No.52421229

>>52421175
What kinda big are we talking? Like bloatmage big, Unchained Monk big, or cloud giant big?

>> No.52421246

>>52421229

how about all three?

>> No.52421250

>>52421217
No.

>> No.52421265

>>52421229

Whichever kind you got.

>> No.52421267

>>52421226

>>52421223
This one is a bit more attractive, don't you think?

>> No.52421275

>>52421250

yes

>> No.52421277

>>52421217
>>52421175
>>52421246
SeaBirb, is that you?
Ah, whether it is or not, whatever--have another big girl.

>> No.52421287

>>52421267

>> No.52421290

>>52421275
No

>> No.52421299

>>52421290

No

>> No.52421305

>>52421287
Here's a nice map, pretty helpful for seeing how everything is arranged.

>> No.52421306

Would /pfg/ play pic-and-filename-related?

>> No.52421322

>>52421306
Do you see a furaffinity tag in my name box motherfucker?

>> No.52421326

>>52421322
yes

>> No.52421327

>>52421305
And here's the last page. I'm no QANON, but hopefully I was still helpful. I'm not even making a PC from Brevoy so none of it helpes me.

>> No.52421340

>>52421277
Ah shit, somebody upthread beat me to posting Rajyaki. Oh well, have this--I'm pretty sure this is female.

>> No.52421342

>>52421322
>Furaffinity
>Man with a Mission

Anon...

>> No.52421353

>Making character for Blingmaker
>Realize like three other people have expressed interest in making the same class and archetype (Steelfist Commando)
>Realize I'm already in some games
>Get that niggling feeling I would be ruining someone's chances of getting in if I made this character

Riddle me this, thread.

What class should I use if I want to play a hard-working elder brother taking care of his younger siblings on the mean streets of Restov, willing to sign onto brawls and tournaments (but nothing murderous or fatal) to make extra coin?

>> No.52421379

>>52421353
Warder with a Brawler dip.
Or Scaled Fist if you favor thematic-ness over effectiveness, but I wouldn't recommend that unless you have something halfway decent to gestalt it with.

>> No.52421392

Amy news of F/SN anon?

>> No.52421414 [SPOILER] 

>>52421340
I don't want to add more fuel to the fire, but here's one of my favorite ladies.

>>52421353
Sounds like a Brawler to me, he learned how to punch on the street and in bars. But if he's suppose to be a big brother trying to take care of his siblings, then why is he leaving them for several weeks to go to possibly get killed by bandits out in the woods?

>> No.52421415

>>52421277

>> No.52421441

>>52421414
Barred from tournaments either because of an honest mistake/accident or because someone's been rigging things against him.

Even if you don't go with that, this is looking like the one chance to make a big break to actually provide a better life for them, rather than keep on scrambling to make ends' meet each month.

>> No.52421447

>>52421414
>>52421441

>That spoiler

Because one fateful night, he got into a brawl with the wrong person, a nobleman. He had a choice in that moment - go on the journey to the Stolen Lands and subjugate the region, or lose the hand that struck the nobleman.

>> No.52421521

>> No.52421543

>>52421441
>>52421447
You know, something I don't think I've seen anybody mention for a character in Blingmaker is the idea that you've already got a family back in Brevoy or wherever, and will be bringing them out once the party actually starts settling the land. It's already the perfect AP for starting a family, in fact it's probably expected that any group going through Kingmaker would have families starting at some point. but already having a family seems like a more novel idea. Plus when that family is just younger siblings, Big Brother doesn't have to be some old fart that's already past his prime, so that's a plus.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wish I thought of your idea first.

>> No.52421566

>>52421521

>> No.52421572

>>52421543

You know, it isn't guaranteed I'm getting in, or that I'm even going to write this application at all! You should totally do it, anon. Make the character if the concept's giving you a spark - imitation is the best form of flattery, after all.

>> No.52421600

>>52419064
W-what if we just have tea instead?

>> No.52421614

>>52421600

Yeah! Tea with LOTS of cream!

>> No.52421691

>tfw was considering Bushi Warlord for blingmaker
>Hear that all of /pfg/ is warlords
M-maybe I'll play a rubato or hidden blade.

How much of a meme build is eldritch scoundrel hidden blade rogue?

>> No.52421702

>>52421614
>tea
>with cream

Vult confirmed for shit taste

>> No.52421710

>>52421691
Well, there's one less warlord now that I've decided I want a horse and heavy armor more. Have at it, bro.

>> No.52421737

>>52421691
MAKE AN ALDORI SWORDLORD.

I SWEAR TO GOD /pfg/, IF YOU FUCKERS DON'T HAVE ONE CLASSIC ALDORI SWORDLORD I WILL BE SOOOOO UPSET.

>> No.52421758

>>52421710
I'm aware of the importance of having at least one high cha player in kingmaker, and combining that with my love of the social skills, cha seems like an obvious choice. I just don't know if I can manage with the 4+int warlord gets.

>>52421737
But that's what it was going to be

>> No.52421759

>>52421737

>mfw would love to make an Aldori Swordlord
>mfw I'm already playing one

>> No.52421772

>>52421737
Even RotJR has a Swordlord. Blingmaker NEEDS one.

>> No.52421775

>>52421737
>Aldori Swordlord

Anon...

>>52421759
Casimir be my daddy

>> No.52421796

>>52421691
>/pfg/ is nothing but Warlords

I thought we were all Wizards or Wizards-in-training. Shit, son. You mean to tell me nobody is planning on making a wizard with no sense of right and wrong for a campaign about getting rich and living in the middle of nowhere?

>>52421737
What, like using the actual prestige class? But doesn't it suck?

>> No.52421798

>>52421758
>But that's what it was going to be

>Aldori Swordlord
>Bushi Warlord

Anon... Swordlords are closer to a Scarlet Throne Style ZS than a Warlord, the shield bonus represents constant parrying and Defensive Focus is, well, your ability to keep yourself from getting stabbed.

>> No.52421821

>>52421796
>What, like using the actual prestige class?

The Swordlord PrC was written in the dawn age of Pathfinder, it's kind of trash.

Scarlet Throne Style Landsknecht is more Swordlord than the Swordlord.

>> No.52421826

New Thread

>>52421793
>>52421793
>>52421793
>>52421793
>>52421793

>> No.52421828

>>52421758
You can call a Bushi Warlord an Aldori Swordlord but it's not the same thing. You got your choice of the mediocre Fighter archetype, and the mediocre prestige class. Take your pick.

I bet all you fuckers take Reactionary and Nodachi too.

>> No.52421851

>>52421828
So I can't be a swordlord unless I take a shitty PrC?

>> No.52421856

>>52421758
>4+INT

The campaign has background skills, so that should help.

>>52421691
Eldritch Scoundrel doesn't seem that meme but it does look cool. I dunno anything about Hidden Blade though.

>>52421759
You can never have enough Aldori Swordlords! Unless you're the Blingmaker DM apparently.

>> No.52421861

>>52421851
You can take a shitty archetype!

>> No.52421864

Where you when DHB admitted to liking 5e's spell casting more than pathfinder's. Fucking traitor.

>> No.52421866

>>52421851

Hold on my boy, I'm going to answer this in the next thread.

>> No.52421885

>>52421864
I too like 5e's spell casting more than Pathfinder's. The moment 5e has thinly veiled fetish games I'm ditching this general.

>> No.52421905

>>52421821
Not the same anon, but that sounds like a fun app for Kingmaker.

>> No.52421937

>>52421885
I've found my calling! I'll run a 5e Time Skip sequel to Pussy Loving Dragons!

People can play as Sigmund's illegitimate child by Bon-Bon

>> No.52421942

>>52421798
>>52421775
>>52421772
>swordlords swordlords swordlords swordlords
>muh poles
>DAAAAAAADDDDIIIIEEEEEEE
Calling it now, nobody's actually going to sack up and roll one, you're all just going to wank off and tease at ERP about it in the thread up until deadline.

It's WotR and the BIG KELLID MAN shit all over again.

>> No.52422231

>>52420619
A beautiful Taldan woman, with some hints of Azlanti ancestry and a demeanor that's seen her mistaken for an Aasimar at times.

Ask her son, of course, and he'll tell you a rather different story.

>> No.52422919

>>52421937
>another PLD knockoff

>>
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