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[ERROR] No.51625972 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Pathfinder General /pfg/

Food Edition:

How much food has your character eaten in one sitting? How often do feasts occur? Does the raw wealth of adventuring changed your tastes in food?

>HELPFUL TIP: If you want to ask for advice or information on a build or character, explain what sources (1st- and 3rd-party) are allowed and if you already have a theme or concept in mind.

Unified /pfg/ link repository:http://pastebin.com/hAfKSnWW

Avowed Playtest 1:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5HkyGRtGZy3SWVhdWFBWERWWjg
Avowed Playtest 2:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rV7kaF9JL2gw9xQalkEnlEDL9WXtbsaCqNABm_pLIgc/edit?usp=sharing

Spheres of Might previews:
Part 1:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aLaYQEFAWU4zQBx58boJPPaySLgJc0Emmw9eKyIJeGI/
Part 2:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pyLq03W2ju58PcKOUq5YXoFowf_weBNzuWtjCMdINXk/edit
Part 3:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-LAt9Ti5pcnvHY4KnFRuItCjqtGM-YJC5r_0zXiKKUk/edit

Old Thread:

>> No.51626001

My character only eats as pleasure and as a hobby since he has a ring of sustenance. However modern restaurant culture is defined by a few odd factors not present in all settings.

>> No.51626050

>>51619803
Damnit forgot the old thread

>> No.51626058

OK, I'm working on a Dwarven Herald Caller Cleric. CN, worshipper of Cthulhu (CE). Dark Tapestry Subdomain of Void Domain

Ability scores (With Dwarf bonuses) are 7, 8, 15, 7, 20, 14

I've got a handle on everything but I have concerns with feat progression.

At current, I've planned
Antihero Feat- Improved Initiative
Level 1- Summon Neutral Monster
Level 3- Expanded Summon Monster
Level 5-Evolved Summon Monster
7- Toughness
9-Sacred Summons
11- Skill Focus: Perception
13- Proxy Summoning.

Other feats I might want are Selective Channeling, Combat casting, and Spell Expertise minor and Major for Summon Monster.

I do notice that because of Herald Caller's limitations, I can't summon ANYTHING from the Summon Monster 1 list.

How might I improve feat progression?
I should note that I get Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning for free
and am treated as having Spell Focus (Conjuration) for the purposes of Evolved Summon Monster
I may ditch Skill Focus, and slip in Minor Spell Expertise

>> No.51626062

Is sky pirates dead or something? GM doesn't seem to have made an appearance in a week.

He's already made his choice and no longer gives a shit about the new applicants hasn't he?

>> No.51626082

Im about to run my first 3.P game ever. I'm an experience 3.5 player, but pathfinder is new to me. What rules should I use form pathfinder and what rules should I leave 3.5? Also, any general advice. I'm going to legalize everything except pathfinder tier one (since I think they are marginally stronger than in 3.5). thoughts?

>> No.51626105

>>51626082
>PF
Pretty much everything
>3.5
Spells, feats, archetypes

>> No.51626113

>>51626082
>PF tier 1
>Stronger than 3.5
Have you seen the wizard school abilities in 3.5?

>> No.51626115

Man, the evil iconics are way more interesting than the good iconics. They even have an example of Chaotic Evil done right, a surprise coming from Paizo.

>> No.51626127

>>51626115
>CE done right
Is it the qt bald inquisitor?

>> No.51626140

Consider the following: Wisdom determines Initiative, and Charisma determines Will saves.

This makes Dex less powerful, Wis less powerful, and gives Cha something to do. Justified with Wisdom already governing your perceptions and reactions (sense motive,) while the force of personality part of Charisma makes it fit will saves easily.

>> No.51626142

>>51626127
Yeah. His set up could let him function in a group that's otherwise strictly good.

I haven't read through all of them yet but it feels like most of the evil iconics could justifiably play in a regular good campaign in-character. The same isn't even true of all the regular iconics, who don't seem to get much story and have goals that'd conflict with each other.

>> No.51626186

>>51625972
Regarding the Avowed's new changes: Particularly Aether Duelist on pure-pulse-damage weapon forms: Half damage + less than 2x the hits = damage nerf, before including the accuracy drop.
PA/DA don't apply to touches after all, and even 1/3 level to pulse FCBs won't catch up on its own either if you have it for your species as shown in here.

Here's numbers for regular and duelist at 6 and regular/IWFduelist at 12.

http://pastebin.com/LaNVLaYJ

>> No.51626265

>>51626142
Can I get a name or a link to the character?

>> No.51626301

>>51626265
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Urgraz

He's statted in the 5th Hell's Rebels book. The two Neutral Evils are really good too, though the Tiefling might have more trouble fitting into a good group and the Dhampir might be a bit waifu-baity for some people's tastes.

>> No.51626325

>>51626301
>Duergar Antipaladin
>Literally -4 to Charisma
Oh, paizo.

>> No.51626332

Okay, so this isn't "mine" but I'm interested to hear your thoughts. My player is proposing this for his upcoming character and thematically/mechanically, I think it sounds neat as heck.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype
>Path of War goodness, basically summon a stand to punch things + maneuvers
>reach w/ no blind spot
>but modest 1d8 damage w/ spiked gauntlet
Now...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-irongrip
>large sized, 2d6

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling
>Variant ability 16
>huge sized, 3d6

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/astral-suits#TOC-Augmented-Weapon
>gargantuan sized, 4d6

Additionaly,
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/archetypes-for-non-martial-classes/aegis---initiating-customizations
Initiator's soul for obvious reasons and "free" flight is an option from customization.

Thoughts? Is it legit?

>> No.51626358

>>51626332
The archetype is nothing but grapple rules. They are notoriously convoluted and for most of your enemies, I bet they're not going to have a stellar CMB. If they, and I'm sure they will, pick up Throat Slicer, you're going to see enemies drop within two rounds that you never expected to see fail so fast.

My advice, protect your important enemies with Freedom of Movement, if you approve of it all. It's not a bad build. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying this archetype has given me a lot of headache in the past.

>> No.51626364

>>51626358
*CMD

>> No.51626371

>>51626332
Pretty sure Irongrip Gauntlets don't allow you to generate larger sized Fiend's Grips. Besides that, it all works, so long as you as the GM are willing to approve the variant tiefling ability (Given that's a table meant to be rolled on)

>>51626358
If you are who I think you are, then I am the cause of those headaches, and I am still so sorry.

>> No.51626385

>>51626301
Eh I thought you were talking about the inquisitor.

>> No.51626402

>>51626371
Bah, it's cool. We all had a hell of a time figuring out "Oh shit wait this is incredibly borked to hell". I just wound up slapping grapple immunity on that mini boss I linked before. You tested me without knowing it and I sure as fuck wasn't ready, so I'm learning to be more ready.

>> No.51626536

Custom weapons. Yes, no, only with a craft score?

>> No.51626563

>>51626536
With DM watching carefully.

>> No.51626612

>>51626371
>Pretty sure Irongrip Gauntlets don't allow you to generate larger sized Fiend's Grips.
The idea is just that he has gauntlets one size too large anyway and uses the irongrip to fill it out. However, I was hoping to hear about this. I was wondering if anyone had an argument for the Fiend's Grip to not scale off just the weapon size, despite it saying the weapon is the focus for the spirit.

>>51626358
I'm tracking ideas of things to sprinkle in which will hinder him a bit more than the others, so lay them on me if you think of anything clever. As it is, antimagic field removes his astral suit and his fiend, but still leaves him with significant power, and antimagic field isn't super practical anyway.

>>51626536
From my limited experience, the big things I saw were
>cannot recreate Falchion, a pretty unoffensive weapon
>fragile weapon quality gives an extra point, but masterwork overrides it trivially, very much gaming the system.
Then there's this weapon which I immediately came up with
>spring-loaded glaive. whopping 2d6 damage, can switch between reach/5ft basically freely, only competes with swift actions
In summary, spring-loaded is busted on a base level as a feature, and for straight damage most 2handers will be overpowered and crit is... well, crit destroys your ability to make weapons because they're so scared of it, but not without reason.

You basically need to use the existing system as a very very rough idea-setter and allow/disallow things case by case, if you allow it at all. Rarely ever called for, you can often just flavor existing weapons as what you want.

>> No.51626622

>>51626612
Oh right, nearly forgot the spring-loaded weapon had extra crit range/multiplier as an option as well, because clearly it's not good enough. At least I think it did, I'd have to go recreate it. Meh.

>> No.51626641

What is your favorite way to distribute loot?

>> No.51626662

>>51626612
>Cannot recreate Falchion

I assume by the lack of an 'a' and the capital letter there you're not referring to an actual heckin' falchion.

>> No.51626683

>>51626662
No, that's just me being a doofus. I meant a regular falchion. Expanding crit beyond 1 step in any way basically takes all your points, leaving you with a 1d3ish weapon with no features.

>> No.51626707

>>51626683
I think you can still scroung up enough points to run an Exotic 2h 1d2 18-20/x3 weapon, though.

>> No.51626713

>>51626641
Sprinkle it around to suit the needs over time but also not make it glaringly obvious.

>> No.51626722

>>51626536
>Double costs nothing
There has to be a way to abuse this. But it's double.

>> No.51626751

>>51626622
The spring loaded 2d6 eats up the 8 available points on a basic 2 hander. They fucked all the crit options on cost.

A real bastard can get 10 points by making a fragile double weapon with a 1d2 end though, and masterworking it to forget the downside. It's a system ripe for exploitation and gaming, only with the caveat being that any way you could game it is still inferior to large falcata abuse because Pathfinder is broken.

>> No.51626776

>>51626707
18-20 eats all 10 points. You need 16 for that build I think.

>> No.51626809

>>51626683
I'm gonna be honest, weapons are a goddamn mess anyway.

Why the fuck is a bo-staff Exotic? Why is a Falchion twohanded?

Partly paizo's own retardation, but also Paizo's regurgitation of the statlines from 3.5

Which I suppose is more of the first, just in a different way.

>> No.51626822

>>51626641
Leave it up to my degenerate players, who fret and fight over who gets what

>> No.51626824

>>51626809

All weapons:
Light Weapon - 1d4 damage
One-Handed Weapon - 1d6 damage
Two-Handed Weapon - 1d8 damage

Martial Training improves the damage die of your weapons

>> No.51626839

>>51626824
>Tying damage ups to initiating

>> No.51626854

>>51626839

>initiating

wut

>> No.51626864

>>51626854
Not referring to the Martial Training PoW feats then?

>> No.51626870

What are wedding customs like in the Inner Sea region? Specifically with regard to Andorans, Absalomites, and Iomedaeans

>> No.51626871

>>51626062
who would he have chosen?

>> No.51626874

>>51626776
Baseline 6 DP from Exotic, two-handed boosts it to 9. Thee more from Additional Design Points to 12. Lesser Damage to 13, Fragile to 14. Hm, yeah, two short of 16. Darn.

>> No.51626902

>>51626870
>Iomedaeans
they play trumpets

>> No.51626905

>>51626864

No, I mean Basic Training, Martial Training, and Advanced? Grandmaster? Training replace Simple Proficiency, Martial Proficiency and Exotic Proficiency

>> No.51626909

>>51626874
Addotional DP refers to the weapon bases I'm fairly certain. The PDF is unclear because Paizo is incompetent but the gnome weapon they example is a 9dp exotic twohander with 3 additional DP listed.

>> No.51626916

>>51626536
How does additional damage type applying simultaneously work? How does it affect DR? Say I roll a 1d10 and get a 5 so I'll deal 5 slashing/piercing damage but the enemy has DR5/slashing. Does the DR just do fuck all since its slashing and piercing? That's how I'm interpreting it anyway but this is Paizo after all so I want to be sure.

>> No.51626935

>>51626916
If you do multiple types at once you take whichever is most beneficial automatically if it helps bypass DR. Otherwise you have to choose, which I always found a little funny. It's one of those moments where you can very easily meta-knowledge without it being an issue.

>> No.51626940

>>51626916
DR is beaten by any attack which deals that type of damage at all.

So DR/Slashing is beaten entirely by a weapon which deals both slashing and bludgeoning at the same time. Likewise, DR/ Slashing and Bludgeoning protects against piercing attacks and ONLY piercing attacks. That is, those WITH only piercing.

>> No.51626968

>>51626902
Like a duet? Does the wedding party join in for a big show?

>> No.51627040

What's a good plan to deal with vargouilles at level 3? We just found evidence of their activity, and I don't want any of my character's friends to get VARGED.

>> No.51627043

>>51626909
Actually, I'm starting to think that it's improved critical threat range that it's meant to be read as "Taking this twice costs 7 DP total"-which makes the Falchion fit within martial weapon budget, and allows for my 1d2 18-20/x3 (Or rather 1d3 if we take fragile instead of reduced damage) as well.

>> No.51627077

>>51627043

>tfw a weapon that does less damage than fucking punching someone is the best weapon in the game

>> No.51627100

>>51627043
It's 10 total. Refer to the war flute example costing 4 and not 3 for the same wording.

>> No.51627110

>>51627040
Fire.

>> No.51627130

>>51627040

Magic missile

>> No.51627138

>>51627110
Where? On the party members? Or just set the environment on fire?

>> No.51627148

>>51627138
Everything.

>> No.51627159

>>51626536
Fucking never.

>> No.51627162

>>51626940
I think that's actually Slashing OR Bludgeoning.

The 'And' in DR, like Bludgeoning 'And' Magic, that, for example, lich's have mean you'd need a weapon that is both magical and bludgeoning.

>> No.51627163

>>51627148
I feel like you need to lighten up, Rags.

>> No.51627167

>>51627077
How?

what whacky build am i overlooking?

>> No.51627199

If a cute Pitborn is already reddish in hue, what does her blushing look like?

>> No.51627202

>>51627163
DONE THAT

Also, apparently Ragnaros and McCree share a VA. Funny old world, innit?

>> No.51627222

>>51627202
VAs are huge sluts for roles, because I reckon they get peanuts per job

>> No.51627226

>>51627167
Lots of flat damage bonuses from literally anything that works with crit, improved critical. You can also probably bump it up to 2d6 with oversized weapon shenanigans.

No idea how serious he was being though.

>> No.51627237

>>51626809
Neverpicked up a Bo, huh?

A bo staff isn't straight - it is thicker in the center than it is at the ends. This makes it better at coping with larger weapons impacting the middlee, but the tapering alsso makes it somewhat more difficult to manuver in the way you would a typical staf, both because you have grip changes and you have a balance issue. You can't slide your hands up or down without affecting the balance of the staff, which is not as much of an issue with a normal single-thickness staff. It actually requires some expertise to use a bo staff properly.

>> No.51627289

>>51627167
Improved Critical, Critical Threat Range increasers/multipliers, plus something to let you roll attacks twice and take higher, effectively letting you run with at least 51% chance of threatening a crit.

>> No.51627340

>>51626332
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling
The variant abilities should be rolled for a reason: Getting to choose automatically ensures the racial abilities are WAY better than the default the race gets.

Fiendbound marauder ability is based on your size, not what weapons you're allowed to have. You can generate one size larger with the tiefling ability or powerful build, like soulknives do, but the gauntlets will basically do nothing; they just reduce the penalties if you generated a size beyond that. So you won't get to gargantuan.

Grappling slows combat to a fucking crawl. Make FUCKING sure you and the player know the rules inside and out, AND that everything is precalculated (and doublecheck it) especially if playing online (ie; make macros). Anything to speed that up.

>> No.51627356

>>51626722
There's ONE way, and other than the fact that technically it's abusing the rules, technically, it's not even impressive or broken.

You craft a ranged weapon with it. Possibly an arm-mounted one, just because.

As you can see the only breaking you'll get out of it mechanically is "wait a fucking second how's this supposed to even work and why is it allowed", but not actual breaking in terms of the performance you get out of it.

>> No.51627385

Two handing a one-handed weapon with a str mod of 1.

Do I deal an additional point of damage every other round, or is it not worth two-handing under str mod 2?

>> No.51627421

>>51626916
There are two types of damage types.

The first is the bad one: "Half and Half". This is generally relegated to things the paizo devs hate with infinite fury; that is to say, the tech weapons, and kineticists.

Half and Half means you roll the listed damage, and then split it in two (arguably you're losing the 1s left off odd number results to fraction rounding as well). Each half has to deal with resistances/DR/immunities/vulnerabilities individually. This is why plasma sucks donkey balls: If you do 19 damage, and the target has resist 9 electrical and resist 9 fire (or immunity to either obviously) the attack fucking bounces off. Do note a lot of special effects off things like enchantments and maneuvers and poisons can fail if no damage was dealt even on a hit, as well. Half and Half is basically "fuck you, wielder" the damage type

Neutral is "Or". This lets you choose when you attack whether it's, say, a bludgeoning attack or a slashing attack. Elements can be included too; something COULD in theory be "Fire OR Piercing", just that things generally aren't (until we get to kineticists anyways).

The GOOD kind of multi-type is "X AND Y". This applies the better type against the target.
Something vulnerable to cold but immune to bludgeoning? A "Cold AND Bludgeoning" damage type would get the vulnerability multiplier entirely, ignoring the immunity. DR 10/Slashing against a Piercing AND Slashing attack? No DR. Resist 5 Fire Resist 10 Electrical? A Fire AND Electrical hit would only deal with resist 5 once.

tldr;
"Half X and Half Y" = trap
"X or Y" = 'normal', but slightly versatile as bonus
"X and Y" = best of each

If you ever do an X and Y attack and one of the components would heal the target, and the GM declares it healed by this, remind him... but he probably knows and is probably fucking you over nevertheless. Happens pretty often, some GMs get pissed as fuck when you start having 2-3 damage types on one weapon.

>> No.51627426

>>51627385
Round down. Not really worth it, no.

>> No.51627442

>>51627421
Also I seem to have used a very large value of 2 causing it to round up.

Yeah.

>> No.51627521

What would a Devourer elevated to divinity look like? What would she choose to look like, anyway?

>> No.51627690

>>51626115
>duergar antipaladin
>can't cast spells
>poisoned his family
>duergar are immune to poison

>> No.51627719

>>51627690
Must have been some strong fucking poison.

>> No.51627751

How often has environmental hazards like water, cliffs, lava and shit been a major factor in your games?
In a 3 shot I was running in a city of towers, I had 2 of 6 pcs fall/get knocked off and plummet to their deaths, and in a current game I am in, I found myself leaping into a river, in plate armor, to fight fishmen in order to save a kid, nearly drowning outright were it not for being saved by another party member.
Just had me wondering if shit like that, which used to be fairly common, even really make appearances anymore.

>> No.51627779

>>51627751
Two words.
Quicksand.

>> No.51627792

>>51627751
Had a level 1 river crossing that ended with slapstick peril and tying the paladin to a rope so he could jump in, grab the War priestess, and then get towed back before they both drowned

>> No.51627849

>>51627779
Fuck.
That.
Noise.
>>51627792
That is almost adorable.
We were attack by kuo-toa, and while the party, none of whom in light gear, was jumping into the water to bring the fight to them, I held back to guard our boat.
Then the kid gets riled up and leaps in after them, gets grabbed and bloop, under water.
My CN dude decided to hero up (because the group's cleric mistrusted him), dove into the water and applied fist to gills, killing the bastard and throwing the kid from the water back on to the boat.
Then the monk fished me up as I proceeded to walk underwater to shore.

>> No.51627882

>>51627751
My favorite watery death:

The party dwarf was a walking stereotype, complete with that thickass plate they wear. That said... he's the party rogue. Strange, I know, but hey it worked well enough. We never snuck around much anyways.

Naturally, there comes a point where as we're fighting a colossal sea-snake,the thing actually uses dispel upon our dwarf. Smart move, actually.

Dwarf doesn't even slow down when he hits the water. Player starts panicking. At this rate, he's sure to drown in less than 19x2 CON Rounds!

Three rounds of him desperately trying to swim back up go by... when all of a sudden the pally measures the map and points out:

>dude can't you just walk out from the bottom?

*ENLIGHTENMENT*

At this rate, our dwarf will survive! barely even ten rounds to make it out, he's got plenty of time left!

... And at the bottom... at the bottom he spots... a treasure chest. I think the GM put it there just as a retard-check or something. Well, that's just a short detour, right? His disable's pretty good, he can get it on the way!

A good 4-5 rounds of walking and lockpicking later he grabs the unlocked chest and stuffs it in his bag of holding
>Why didn't you just... aw forget it

about 50ft from being able to get his head back up above water, the dwarf drowned of natural causes.

>> No.51627917

>>51625972
New to pathfinder still making my first character.

How viable would a Dex inquisitor/gunslinger be with the weapon finesse feat be?

>> No.51628005

>>51627917
Yes.

>> No.51628036

>>51627917
No.

>> No.51628046

>>51627917
Maybe

>> No.51628054

>>51628046
>>51628005
>>51628036
Stop playing with my emotions like this

>> No.51628062

>>51627917
I don't know

>> No.51628070

>>51628054
Gunslinger gets dex to firearm damage at 5th level with grit keyed off of Wis. Inquisitor is a solid caster that's keyed off of Wis and has solid saves. It's good stuff all around.

>> No.51628094

>>51627779
b-but that's one word!

>> No.51628122

>>51628070
Thats what i was figuring, get gun slinger to level 5, then go all into inquisitor, using a rapier. That way i can use my dex to make attacks with weapon finesse and see if i can utilize the inquisitors bonuses on crits.

I was gonna try and make a pistol sword character, and carry around a brace of like 5 pistols so i dont need to reload all the time, if the DM lets me ill just use a swift action to draw or holster the used fire arm, or ill just drop the fire arm and then at the end of the encounter pick it back up.

>> No.51628151

>>51628046
Could you repeat the question?

>> No.51628152

>>51628122
Quick Draw to draw weapons as a free action. Guns are expensive unless your DM uses Commonplace Gun rules.
Dex is not added to damage of your rapier, just to your attack roll, unless you have something that gives you Dex to damage.
You take an attack of opportunity (free swing on you) if you fire in melee range of someone.

>> No.51628165

>>51628094

>> No.51628205

>>51626822

Is that what Onryou would look like as a human?

>> No.51628215

>>51628152
The dex for the rapier would be just to hit, that was im not splitting between str and dex to land attacks. My logic was i might not be a good damage dealer, but with the inquisitor stacking dex and knowledge i would be pretty useful as a utility and light damage.

Im trying to see if i can find it, but i know i was reading somewhere there was a feat i could take that prevented an attack of opportunity on me at close range.

>> No.51628225

>>51628215
Found it, its sword and pistol feat.

>> No.51628234

>>51625972

My character grew up as a half-breed noble in an Elvish Kingdom. Elvish cuisine and culture in the setting is quite similar to that of Scandinavia, so he grew up eating lots of fish and forest critters.

The most he's eaten in one sitting was probably at some festival when he was an adolescent. He probably regretted it that evening.

>> No.51628300

>>51627199

Depends on what color her blood is... I'd say black or blue.

>> No.51628332

>>51627917
>>51628062

Can you repeat the question?

>> No.51628333

>>51627199
>cute
>pitborn
This meme needs to end.

>> No.51628355

>>51628332
Would a gunslinger/inquisitor trying to get the sword and pistol feat be a viable build.

>> No.51628374

>>51628165
SHIT

>> No.51628378

>>51628353
Still recruiting for a smutty dungeoncrawler.
Had a prospective player drop out due to a time miscalculation, so we need a third to join us. Please study the game page carefully as it should answer most questions, either on the PDF or in Discord.

>> No.51628384

>>51628355

If done properly, yes.

>> No.51628389

>>51628384
Super im probably gonna fuck it up then!

>> No.51628406

>>51628332
You aren't the boss of me now, you aren't the boss of me now.

>> No.51628431

>>51628406
And you are not so big.

>> No.51628458

>>51628389

>> No.51628545

Any tips for making an Avant Guard Kineticist work?

>> No.51628558

>>51628545
Yes.

Don't make an Avant Guard Kineticist

>> No.51628578

>>51628558
Is it bad? I remember it getting a lot of praise here a few months ago.

>> No.51628619

Are there any tips for feats for my generalist arcane bloodline human sorcerer?

I'm currently thinking of just getting some metamagic stuff because I can use it well, but I'm really not sure. I want to avoid summoning or anything that might slow down the game.

>> No.51628645

>>51628619
Try out for me going spell focus and greater spell focus and using Conjuration debuffs and battlefield control. Glitterdust, grease...

>> No.51628672

>>51628645
Well...I'm building a higher level character to replace an old one. Level 14.

I'm playing with some inexperienced players, and I want to do the "utility support caster" thing, but I hate wizards so I chose a sorcerer.

I've chose a really versatile spell list,so I don't want to just stick with one school.

>> No.51628761

>>51625972
>How much food has your character eaten in one sitting?
Not my character specifically but our party got treated to a Manchu Han Full Course
DM ruled we only ate half of it

DM is an actual chef so he basically tries to cook at the beginning of each session what we ate at the end of last session
I think we've had sirloin like three times in a row now

>> No.51628818

I need some solid first names for a Swordlord hopeful from Rostland, anyone got some good ones?

>> No.51628863

>>51628818
Inigo

>> No.51628867

>>51628761

But anon, an Imperial Feast is meant to be served over the course of three days and six banquets.

>> No.51628870

>>51628761
Hot damn.

You all do chip in to pay for that, right?

>> No.51628887

>>51628867
Well I guess I didn't get the memo
All I knew was that it is meme tier huge

>>51628870
Yeah we do
It's basically dinner for us, we go to his house at like 5 and leave in the night

>> No.51628900

>>51628761
>Not my character specifically but our party got treated to a Manchu Han Full Course

[Desire to talk about Jade Regent spoilers intensifies]

>> No.51628912

>>51628887
Sounds pretty awesome.

>> No.51628924

>>51628887
>All I knew was that it is meme tier huge
That's because it is meant as a course for the entire higher end of the Chinese Imperial court.

>> No.51628967

>>51628205
Probably

>> No.51629006

>>51628578
It's not bad at all. The thing you have to remember though is that some of your power will be coming from both ends.

The Avant-Guard has a big, shiny, obvious primary ability, but it's very easy to forget that once you toss it out, for the most part, you're free to start acting normally again. You don't want to just dump your kinetic blasts - in fact it's not a bad idea to recover it through the appropriate feat. The burn redux also allows you less overpowering boosts offensively - but you've got an astral construct supplementing that with its turns. Thing is though, it lets you use utilities more consistently. Time, Void and all those other ones with sicko utilities but that are highly limited are suddenly all-day. Fucking use that.

>> No.51629013

>All this talk of food
>mfw I could really go for some fried noodles right now

>> No.51629034

>>51629006
one last thing to remember about blasts:
ANY kineticist with the psionic subtype (like a half-giant or whatnot) gets crystalline needle blast composite at 7th. This does also include the legendary kineticist, who won't get it at 6th, as this is a function of the blast talent itself and not of expanded element.

>> No.51629040

>>51629013
>fried noodles

>> No.51629052

Ok I need help
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/azata/azata-gancanagh
What does sexiest man look like?
Sexiest to women that is, I don't mean what gay people like.

>> No.51629065

>>51628333
trips confirm

Fuck your demon waifu's.

>> No.51629077

>>51629040

That's what they're called at my friendly neighborhood Chinese restaurant and they're delicious!

>> No.51629096

>>51629077
>Chinese resturants
Are you Murrican
Burgerchink resturants are literally fucking garbage
Just make noodles yourself it's really easy too

>> No.51629098

>>51628761
>I think we've had sirloin like three times in a row now
I could go for a sirloin steak right now...

>> No.51629106

>>51629096
>Burgerchink resturants are literally fucking garbage

No they're tasty and stuffed with MSG and I love them.

>> No.51629114

>>51629096
Youmeanliktethis?

>> No.51629144

>>51626186
TWF is intended to be a damage downgrade without external bonuses to damage, as it is SIGNIFICANTLY better at applying debuffs, especially stacking ones, though non-stacking ones now also benefit significantly more thanks to the changes to weaponlike shapes.

>> No.51629176

>>51629065
I wish I could anon!

>> No.51629190

>>51629114
If you're actually going to use packed ramen you may as well go full meme

>> No.51629211

>>51629190
Hehehehe. I was there for that. Didn't make the screencap but boy was that a roller coaster from start to finish.

>> No.51629217

>>51629190

>> No.51629241

>>51629052
A white male (female) twink.

>> No.51629318

>>51629144
There's virtually no external bonuses to damage on the pure-pulse weapon shapes. What are you gonna add? Deadly Aim to a touch attack? Even with FCBs and a decent stat one is still behind on aether duelist. Non-stacking ones are barely affected if at all: If you were already getting 3-4 hits in, +1 or 2 is unlikely to change the situation; either they'd only fail on a 1, or they're immune, or by 3-4 separate rolls they'll have failed.

You're purchasing a feat to be allowed to purchase two more feats in order to be allowed to deal less damage to POTENTIALLY cause slightly more stacking debuffs if they can work at all and are the stacking type.

>> No.51629336

>>51629096

I don't wanna make my own noodles. I want restaurant noodles! They need the tip!

God bless.

>> No.51629410

>>51629096
>>51629217

>Hating on Americans
>When you're probably from a country that doesn't deep fry their hot dogs or make cheese balls

>> No.51629480

>>51625972
How would you run a Merchant Campaign?

>> No.51629506

>>51629480
Oregon Trail

>> No.51629515

>>51629506

>> No.51629519

>>51629480
use Ryuutama.

>> No.51629533

>>51629506
Oregon Trail was based af

>> No.51629592

>>51629515

Godspeed, you magnificent bastard.

>> No.51629674

>>51626641
No joke our party has one guy in the group who just carries around a bag of holding and every player brings material loot to him.

Players then agree to sell whatever isn't wanted, and gear and treasure is distributed on a need-based basis.

If players want to buy things, they need to put up at least 10% of the cost from their own personal reserves (which roughly correlates in size with just how many things they've actually killed)

This actually doesn't lead to very many disputes at all. On a personal level it's sort of funny considering that both that player and I, the DM, are such stauch anticommunists.

>> No.51629691

How would determine what is your expected numbers by level in terms of To Hit, Damage put out, things like that?
Are there any resources out there outside of gratuitous studying of the Monster Manual?
>>51629674
>On a personal level it's sort of funny considering that both that player and I, the DM, are such stauch anticommunists
Foolishness, since communism works on a small scale when everyone is on board.

>> No.51629735

>>51629691
What is a good spell for spell perfection?

>> No.51629748

>>51629735
Fireball.

>> No.51629771

>>51629748
Like Seriously?

Why Fireball?

>> No.51629774

>>51629480

Ooh, you should use Tale of an Industrious Rogue as inspiration: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tale_of_an_Industrious_Rogue,_Part_I

The gist of it,
>Party discovers a massive deposit of a resource, ideally something "common" yet valued like gold, marble, silver or salt. Alternatives include saffron, silk, Adamantine or Mithral (the last two being particularly interesting.)
>Party has to clear out the region of monsters, bandits or other ne'er do wells who would impede the resource extraction operations (whether it's a mine, plantation, quarry, etc.)
>Party now has to develop connections among existing Merchant Princes, who may or may not demand they go on quests to empower their own operations
>Party experiences their Boom Years, increasing profits while streamlining expenses
>Party is forced to deal with rival Merchants trying to sabotage their operation through overt (hiring bandits) or covert (whispering lies to the local lord) means.
>Party can now seek out other means to increase profits, like dabbling in alternative resources, becoming nobility themselves (a town might spring up around their operation) or even involving themselves in the affairs of nobles, like Petyr Baelish (aka, Littlefinger.)

How's this?

>> No.51629792

>>51629691
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CCxnAb8apicr3fOrSCEFNRwHlzRieMrXm6ld9-uLAFc/edit?usp=drive_web&usp=sheets_home
There you go.

>> No.51629798

>>51629774
There is always also
Rogue Trader

>> No.51629799

>>51629771
Well for one: You can start each combat by dropping a maximized fireball and a quickened fireball.

Add spontaneous metamagic, magical lineage, and intensify spell for a total of 142 damage on average , save for half.

The only thing you need to worry about is a ring of evasion.

>> No.51629811

>>51629771
Not entirely seriously, but you got something better?
Decent damage, wide range of effect, and it works with damn near any metamagic you can think of.

>> No.51629817

>>51629691
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3

go down to HP, look at the mean and median.
Primary single target damage dealer: DPR at least = to that (thus, on average you'd get a kill before resists, and so on)

Primary AoE: should do at least half of CR-4's HP if it's a nice wide one. If it's like a 5' splash consider the AoE a side-effect of this obviously single-target ability (like you would "and it lowers their movment for 1rd")

a "non-combat" or non-damage-dealer can still be contributing well enough with a turn spent on damage IF they can at least do half that single target DPR (AoE shouldn't be much different however.).

Once you factor in misses, shitty luck, resists/DR/immunities/incorporeality/etc and so on, you get the 3ish round combats the game was hoping for... on average of course.

>> No.51629841

>>51629318
Yes, actually. See the Steel's Betrayal feat in Avowed 1. Also, things like a Bard's Inspire Courage and other abilities along those lines.

>> No.51629848

>>51629811
Not really. I have never gotten close to this level before.

>> No.51629850

>>51629798

Rogue Trader is another beautiful example of how a Merchant focus can seamlessly graft onto the standard killing and politicking of a "typical" campaign.

I want to play an Artisan who works the goods produced by the Merchants so fucking bad.

>> No.51629888

>>51629811
What about eniveration?

>> No.51629928

>>51629771
Because between certain broken metamagics and the large DC/spell pen boosts, it can be used to cheese the absolute fuck out of a lot of encounters. It's not a good spell on its own, but it's a different story when you can turn it into a SoL machine.

>> No.51629934

>>51629888
Doesn't benefit all that much from a lot of metamagic, now that level drain doesn't have the same teeth it used to.

>> No.51629950

>>51629798

>Poirot's face was like a Balkan stone carving of Satan

>> No.51629980

>>51629817
>mean HP at CR4 is 39
>I should be doing 39+ a round
Uh... I'm not sure what to make of this, anon.
I mean, even at best, I'm doing 5d6+3+6, so if I rolled max, sure, I guess, but I can't do that round after round.
And I'm damned sure the rest of the party can't do anything near that. Well, maybe the monk can get close.

>> No.51629994

>>51629980
How the fuck are you doing so little damage at level 8? What are you playing?

>> No.51630021

>>51629994
I'm level 4, anon, I said CR4, where did you get 8 from?
This >>51629792 is even worse.

>> No.51630132

>>51629792
>reads this
>paranoia sets in
>not even sure how I'm supposed to make some of these numbers
>don't have the money or gear to do it
>panic creeping in
>I'm the tank, not sure if I can tank
>party is comprised entirely of skirmishers and squishies
>can't fail them!
>think I'm gonna fail them...
>PANIC
>try to cry only a little
>crying a lot
>wish I never saw this

>> No.51630141

>>51629841
Other people's abilities aren't part of your own damage. You might as well say your vitalist hits ridiculously hard because the party barbarian hits 4 digits.

As for steel's betrayal accuracy becomes a problem. Touch AC's averages are low in the bestiary primarily due to colossal creatures like dragons, who give the entire thing a floor of 0. However, outsiders like demon lords will actually have touch in the high 20s up to the mid 30s. Touch's averages are fairly distorted in this way; a regular humanoid target of equal CR would have a little bit of dodge or deflect and dexterity, and not be at *LITERALLY 1 or 0*, after all.

TWF is -2 to all attacks, and the bonus shot from IWF is actually at -5.
From this we also add -2 per grade of steel's betrayal.

Take barrage for example:
Level 6 has BAB 4 and possibly +4 to hit from stat, maybe. Add in another +2 misc (PDS and/or temporary buffs) and we're at perhaps +10. Steel's Betrayal+TWF would be a -6 here. Sure it's touch, but at an average touch AC of around 12, your 1d20+4 is no longer all that good. Your attack pattern is now 3 shots instead of 2... But +4/+4/+4 versus a regular 2 attacks of +10/+10.

If that was 3d8+4 per hit: Accuracy vs Touch AC 12:
Regular barrage is +10/+10: 2x 95% @ 3d8+4 each
Duelist barrage is +8/+8/+8: 3x 85% @ 1d8+2 each
Betrayal barrage is +6/+6: 2x 75% @ 3d8+12 each
Duelist betrayal is +4/+4/+4: 3x 65% @ 1d8+10 each

You'll quickly find that duelist steel betrayal is *still* worse than regular steel betrayal which is slightly better so long as it connects than a regular barrage against the median, but just a bit.

>> No.51630169

>>51630132

This is what happens when you spend too much time on /pfg/!

>> No.51630186

>>51630021
Level 4, if you can do 2/3 of the HP instead, don't worry.

However at level 5+ with haste and BAB's extra attacks kicking in, as well as metamagic/metapsi and all sorts of other abilities coming online proper, you should (and must) catch up.

Rusty-dagger-shanktown is rusty-dagger-shanktown, but if you can't deal at least half the HP of that 39HP thug, your job isn't "damage dealer", you better have other tricks up your sleeve (debilitations/debuffs, etc).

Keep in mind however DPR is not "average on that damage roll", it's average with accuracy AND CRITS taken into consideration. Like, if you have a 95% chance to hit, that lowers the number a bit, but if you have also a 95% chance of 10% of those hits actually doing double damage, that also factors in.

The true goal is basically highly-reliable 2-rounding of equal CR on average, rather than needing 4-5 rounds if they're well protected. Those numbers for THEM are medians as well after all! some shit's tougher, some shit's weaker!

>> No.51630221

Power Attack was a mistake

>> No.51630262

>start looking into planar binding
>succubus can give +2 profane
>whatcouldgowrong.jpg
>do research
>devise plan:
>>telekenesis for a grapple she can't resist, >>protection from evil on us so we are immune to mind control
>>ally binds her once grappled
>>eniverate her down to 1HD
>>curse her for -4 to all whatever
>>curse her for -6 will
>suddenly feel really really guilty for some reason

>> No.51630270

>>51630221
PF Power Attack, where you can't choose your trade off?
Yeah.

>> No.51630285

>>51630270
No in general
It forever tainted the math of DnD

>> No.51630288

>>51630169
IT'S NOT MY FAULT!
>sobs
>>51630186
>Level 4, if you can do 2/3 of the HP instead, don't worry.
I can, at average, do 29 damage, with a demoralize attempt attached to it (Cornungon Smash), max would be 39 on the dot.
>Keep in mind however DPR is not "average on that damage roll", it's average with accuracy AND CRITS taken into consideration. Like, if you have a 95% chance to hit, that lowers the number a bit, but if you have also a 95% chance of 10% of those hits actually doing double damage, that also factors in.
Well, my To Hit is current 9, with a MC weapon that will have to remain MC for quite a while, I think, so I can tag the AC median, also can drop a +2-4 to the attack roll depending on circumstances, so that's cool, right?
>The true goal is basically highly-reliable 2-rounding of equal CR on average
Uh, I can do that!
>I think I can do it
>gotta roll decent
But I'm the party tank, and I actually don't know what the rest of the group can pull off, outside of the monk's Dragon Kicking and the... swordsage, I think, he... does stuff?

>> No.51630296

>>51630288
>dragon kicking monk
yea you don't need to worry about damage. You will do fine.

>> No.51630297

>>51630262
>for some reason
If you're good or neutral you've just suffered an alignment drop because you consorted with an evil creature and tortured an intelligent creature, both evil acts. If you're evil you've realized how stupid you are for making an enemy of an outsider that you could have dealt with on peaceable terms.

>> No.51630309

>>51630285
Is the math of D&D some sacred thing now?

>> No.51630360

>>51630297
>literal demon
>peaceable terms
That's not how that works.

>>51630262
Well you did just capture, torture, and basically mind-rape something intelligent, so you should feel guilty.

But it was a being made from elemental evil, that undoubtedly deserved worse, and if you use your new slave for good purposes then you have done a good act.

Sometimes doing the right thing feels wrong. That is normal.

>> No.51630378

>>51630296
But my defenses are poop!
>sorta, AC23/Fort8/Ref5/Wil4
>:(
And my tankyness comes from AoO punishment, so if I can't hit shit, or take hits, I can't do my job!
>how can I put my int mod to will save?
>what did I get myself into?

>> No.51630398

>>51630285
Fuck off retard, Power Attack was introduced to counter monsters having 2 to 4 times the HP. 5E is what happens when you don't do that and 5E's combat makes me want to kill myself for that reason among others.

>> No.51630408

>>51630309
it stops most classes from being able to make good contribution in combat
beating ac without power attack means you do not damage

>> No.51630414

>>51630270
I disagree, anon.
You get a far better exchange for what you are losing compared to 3.5, and PA is still worthwhile with one handed and light weapons.

>> No.51630434

>>51630414
Only if you aren't supporting it with other feats. PF's PA looks better by itself but 3.5's PA has much, much better support.

>> No.51630436

>>51629006
>in fact it's not a bad idea to recover it through the appropriate feat.
I thought you couldn't get other blasts through feats.

Goddamn, why does the kineticist have to be so goddamn obtuse?

>> No.51630442

>>51630360
An evil alignment is not a free pass to do whatever you want. An act can be evil, even against an evil target. Furthermore, demons, while not as reliable as devils, can still be dealt with with just a planar binding and an exchange.

>> No.51630445

>>51630378
Post:
>class
>race
>racial traits
>favored class bonus choices
>feats
>equipment

>> No.51630446

>>51630398
Thats exactly why power attack is broken

>> No.51630459

>>51630434
Yes, but shit like Shocktrooper pushed a bad issue.

>> No.51630460

>>51625972
>Food edition
My players once decided to spend their earnings on a feast at the tavern, while simultaneously bribing the bartender to fuck each other over.

I remember pulling up the bestiary and just turning monsters into food items, Paladin got a Behir Steak, druid got some kind of fruit or something. Wizard ended up getting sexchanged and accidentally summoning a beer elemental which attacked the party, which the Paladin ended up drinking whole much to the dismay of the rest of the bar.

>> No.51630463

>>51630408
Except most classes can pick up power attack.

There is literally nothing stopping you other than +1 Bab and 13 Strength.

>> No.51630471

>>51630463
It is not about picking power attack
It is actually being able to hit reliably with its attack penalty

>> No.51630476

>>51630445
O-okay.
>trepidation sets in, usually don't show people my characters even in games I'm confident in

>> No.51630477

>>51630442
>dominating evil and forcing it to do good
>worse than bargaining with evil
Seriously?

Like if it were a non-outsider, maybe. But we are talking literally-made-from-evil here.

Would calling then killing the demon be a good act?

>> No.51630486

>>51630471
You really shouldn't be having trouble with that on any class that should be acting as a damage dealer at all.

>> No.51630510

>>51630486
Gosh Anon
You really didn't get it
The whole idea of "damage dealers" is wrong
Everyone should be able to contribute to "damage" no matter what

>> No.51630522

>>51630471
The penalty is FAR lower compared to what you have to put in compared to 3.5, anon.
Having it at base be 1->2, means you'd have to drop twice as much BAB at it's core compared to 3.5.

>> No.51630532

>>51630446
No. It's why 3.5's stat modifier system is broken and why having a system with (somewhat) symmetrical monster and PC design is a bad idea if you're lazy and/or retarded fuckers like the 3.5 dev team was. Given what they had to work with, PA is a good idea because it allows you to jettison resources that pile up far in excess of usefulness for something you won't have enough of.

>> No.51630543

>>51630510
Except everyone can bar maybe full casters who would need to center their whole build around doing damage to deal it. I don't really know what anon is talking about. Most damage dealers wanting power attack isn't a function of power attack being broken, it's a function of the game's math being fucked up.

Same thing with pounce.

>> No.51630544

>>51630510
>Why can't my wizard also punch things to death just like the barbarian! I picked my spells to be God outside of combat why can't I also be as good as everyone else!

>> No.51630555

>>51630476
DO IT FAGGOT
BEND OVER AND PRESENT YOUR PUSSY TO US!

>> No.51630587

>>51630543
The game math is fucked up because they built it around things like power attack

>> No.51630611

>>51630587
Full Attacks definitely, power attack. Nah.

>> No.51630647

>>51627917
Multiclassing(with a few exceptions) is a bad idea unless you know exactly what you're doing.

>> No.51630683

>>51627917
If you want to use a gun, that is one of the very few ways to do it.

Get gunslinger 5 for dex to damage, then go inquisitor for everything else.

Don't listen to the gun memers

>> No.51630694

>>51630683
Why Gunslinger 5 when he can be a Trench Fighter 3.
>multi-classing a 6th caster
WHY?

>> No.51630695

>>51630587
You know by the calculations you aren't "supposed to" drop a CR+4 monster in one turn every turn?

>> No.51630700

>>51630288
well, cool or not is mostly up to you, all we can provide are basic metrics or build combos. Mechanical advice, basically. We can tell you "expect this" and "the system ends up expecting this of you" along with "this > that" and "monkey lunge is a trap", but it's up to you to put it all together in a way that feels comfortable and fun.

I mostly work with ranged damage dealing, myself.

>> No.51630717

>>51630476
>forewarned is to forebear, there are some 3.5 options sprinkled in by DM allowance and some advice I followed from guides and other players
>class
Warden, Zwei Sentinel archetype
>race
3.5 Goliath w/ Draconic template
>racial traits
N/A (3.5 Aggressive)
>favored class bonus choices
N/A
>feats
Power Attack
Cornugon Smash
VMC Barbarian Rage
Flaw: Defensive Focus
Flaw: Shield Expertise
Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered
>equipment
Backpack
Bedroll
Belt Pouch
Flint/Steel
Mess Kit
50' Hemp Rope
Soap
Sunrod (5)
Wandermeal (10)
Waterskin x2
Survival Kit mwk
Basic Maps
Utility Knife
Climber's Kit
Oil pints x2
Perfume x2
Mwk Tool (Intimidate)
Vermin Repellant x2
Wayfinder
Dark Blue cracked ioun stone
Mulberry crcked ioun stone
Dull Grey ioun stone
Mask of Fear
Mwk Large Greatsword
Cold Iron spiked gauntlet
Silver Spiked gauntlet
Javelins x4
>do believe this is everything

>> No.51630747

>>51630694
I mean if your DM will let you take the "only existed in WW1" fighter archetype, then sure.

The spells add some minor utility and the judgments work perfectly with guns.

>> No.51630750

>>51630532
The entire system being broken doesnt make the feat not broken.

If Power Attack is so necessary to be a competent combatant that everyone has to have it, then it's a broken feat.

>> No.51630757

>>51630436
Kineticists, as well as non-"your weapon attacks now also get pulse damage" avowed, along with other specials like "aegis big weapon build" and "autofire" are all ... I guess you could say "niche" builds or "deviations". They use the rules of the game, but are assembled and optimized in ways that are completely bizzare or nonsensical to the standard form of damage-dealing setups for the game.

As for blasts, the Augmented Elements feat (same book as the avant-guard btw) will give you one, but be careful; it gains +1 burn cost, so it's best used as a stopgap measure OR as a combo-base: you don't have to be using it actively to branch new composites off it and all them things!

>> No.51630770

>>51630700
Well, the more I know, the better, I guess?
Going in with blinders on, or relying entirely on others, sorta got me where I'm at.

>> No.51630772

Hey /pfg/, I've got a question about Gestalt characters: Can you switch which class you are using for Gestalt with each level?

For example, could you do something like:
1: Fighter/Ranger
2: Fighter/Ranger
3: Fighter/Gunslinger

>> No.51630776

>>51630747
Hey man, the DMs let "only existed in Jack Vance postapocalyptic sci-fi novels" wizard archetypes all the time; I doubt "guy with a gun" should cause any trouble!

>> No.51630779

>>51630772
Yes.

Why the hell you would do Fighter//Ranger or Fighter//Gunslinger is beyond my comprehension however.

>> No.51630792

>>51630776
You'd think so, but people get pissy about guns.

>> No.51630797

>>51630695
No the calculation is that "the class that exists only to stack damage should do this every turn"
Which ends up alienating everyone else
It created the whole problem which is "playing cleric at low levels is utter hell"

>> No.51630799

>>51630772
Unless the GM is limiting which class you have to take for a Gestalt it's essentially just having two separate class progressions. You can choose whatever two classes per level you qualify for

>> No.51630815

>>51630792
Guns itself are not the problem
It is what time period people want their guns to be

>> No.51630819

>>51630792

Why are Elves in gunslinger get-ups so cute?

>> No.51630820

>>51630750
Not everyone has to have PA to do damage.

>> No.51630829

>>51630779
Probably not the best example of gestalt pairs, but it's just an example, not what I was intending to make. Thanks!

>> No.51630851

>>51630770
A lot of this game's optimization is similar to Magic the Gathering and other such games. There are fucktons of options, so it's as you read more and more stuff (why are you here even playing this, run away, run away before it's too late) that you'll start seeing more and more combinations.

Like one day you put two and two together and suddenly there's a medium soulknife with a gargantuan beam cannon running around using it for I-swear-its-martial-arts.

At the higher levels you start using said knowledge to take severely subpar options like guns and crossbows, and make them completely viable, competent warriors in their own rights and then some! Because, well, honestly, once you start going over 500DPR it doesn't fucking matter anymore it's all just overkill. Pursuing the highest number can be fun, but so can making "derringer pixie" into a tankbusting atrocity.

>> No.51630862

>>51630815
Which is also stupid, since guns were around before plate armor.

>> No.51630875

>>51630820
I regularly hear otherwise, at least with regards to melee combat.

>> No.51630882

>>51630815

Personally, I love the look and feel of late period muzzle loaders. You know, the mid 19th century muskets built for minie balls?

That combination of high accuracy, high caliber single-shot with a massive barrel just tickles me.

>> No.51630885

>>51630862
Not that.
You find less opposition with muskets and old smoothborne guns rather than cowboy revolvers and lever actions

>> No.51630906

>>51630750
You have no fucking idea what broken means, on multiple and equally wrong levels.

Power attack being a "necessity" isn't because power attack is "broken", it's a fault of the system itself. There is no fucking reason NOT to take power attack because any other feat you're going to be taking at BAB +1 is going to be utter diarrhea, or doesn't actually do anything useful until like, 7th level when the feat you ACTUALLY want becomes available.

It's a feat that has no obtuse prerequisites, and universally gives you something that betters your quality of life while making you objectively better at your job. Yes, if your job is melee-attacking damage dealer, you grab power attack, because WHAT THE FUCK ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO GRAB? Power attack is really not necessary, in the same way that most good things you can do are not necessary.

You want to talk about fucked system math, then blame iterative attacks, not one of the few examples of good martial character feats.

>> No.51630918

>>51630815
well the setting itself has pretty much all of the time periods, so... really that should be up to the wielder!

>>51630875
Generally speaking that's correct. But, that's *generally* speaking. Some options can be incompatible with it (like touch attacks), or can be so inaccurate due to a lack of BAB or bonuses in the class itself that the extra penalty will crash their actual output. In those cases though one needs... alternative methods.

>>51630862
Indeed they were. As were far far far far better crossbows than the ones in here.

>>51630882
I've always liked the sleeker more modern looks myself, though it need not necessarily be proper/realistic, and I like a lot of the non-bulbous magitek stuff.

>> No.51630944

>>51630918
Soon with Starfinder, it is really not up the wielder

>> No.51630962

>>51630882
standing in the rank and file in a civil war-era firing line is a good high
'53 Enfield best gunfu

>> No.51630967

>>51630815
Guns predate plate armor and the rapier you sextuple faggot.

>> No.51630995

>>51630815
Which is always inevitably "muh generic medieval fantasy muhfugga". But for some reason of course, plate armor is still a thing.

That or they don't want anything that can remotely challenge the supremacy of longbows, which I like to think of as the katana of ranged weapons.

>> No.51631003

>>51630906
You are conflating broken with overpowered.

>WHAT THE FUCK ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO GRAB?
Exactly, time and again Power Attack is hands and heads above every other option for a character. You can pursue other options, but nothing offers the value that Power Attack does at its low cost. Power Attack is a balanced ability, but it is broken as a feat because it becomes an automatic assumption of so many characters.

Also, I'm not claiming it should be banned or rebalanced or anything. Rather if its basically automatic, then make it actually automatic for characters with BaB +1

>> No.51631015

>>51630882
I like the old WWI-ish bolt action rifles myself.

>> No.51631038

>>51631003
>You are conflating broken with overpowered.
It's not overpowered though. Everyone wanting power attack is a function of 80% of feats and 99.9% of feats you're going to be able to get at low level being pure horseshit.

>> No.51631087

>>51631003
>Also, I'm not claiming it should be banned or rebalanced or anything. Rather if its basically automatic, then make it actually automatic for characters with BaB +1

This is true.
It's why so many people here use feat tax rules.

>> No.51631099

>>51631038
>It's not overpowered though
I know, I said so myself.

Power Attack is broken because it is an outlier among feats. For it to be not broken it would have to be made worse or other feats made better, neither is really an option in Pathfinder. That's one of the things that other games like 5e or Savage Worlds does well, is that their feats (or feat-equivalents) are usually relatively consistent with each other.

>> No.51631121

>>51630862
Early handcannons predate plate by what, 200 years almost?
Firelances are even older.
Full sets of plate armor only predate the matchlock upgrade by about 50 years tops.

>> No.51631130

>>51631099
>Power Attack is broken because it is an outlier among feats.
By that logic every feat that is worth taking is "broken" because feats being pure horseshit is the standard, not the rule.

>> No.51631144

>>51631099
>Power Attack is broken because it is an outlier among feats.
Being an outlier doesn't automatically make something "broken", it's just a testament to just how shitty a system Pathfinder is.

>> No.51631154

>>51631130
He sorta acknowledges that, anon, why are you being so salty.

>> No.51631166

>>51630779
Not that anon but my Molthune application was Fighter | Ranger (Battle scout archetype and something else...I can't remember and the sheet died).

>> No.51631167

>>51631144
see
>>51631003

>> No.51631180

So when starfinder comes out how many people are we going to see shitting up pathfinder by backwards porting sci-fi shit?

>> No.51631183

>>51631167
See >>51631144

>> No.51631221

>>51631183
Anon, you need to know what broken means.
Something that is "broken" means it offsets the system in a negative fashion.
Power Attack is broken because it clearly is far above any other option, and that is something bad when it comes to rpgs more often than not, especially one with many choices.

>> No.51631225

>>51630918
>>51630962
>>51631015

>tfw I read a Nation-States Future-tech RP where one of the empires used single-shot, long barrel railguns with advanced shielding systems in their gorgets

The level of detail they put into how the guns worked and the sounds they made while punching holes in man and gunship alike was glorious.

>> No.51631269

>>51631221
<citation needed>
Power attack is neither overpowered nor underpowered, therefore it's not broken. It's the rest of the system that's broken.

>> No.51631270

>>51631221
>Something that is "broken" means it offsets the system in a negative fashion.
Except it doesn't because characters would be far, far worse off it didn't exist. Pathfinder has too many bad options and not enough good ones. You're blaming the A student for doing well in the class full of people who can barely write their own names.

>> No.51631308

>>51625972

How does one romance Npc innkeeper? How does one romance npc bandit lord?

>> No.51631342

>>51631308
Dominate Person

>> No.51631377

>>51631269
>Power attack is neither overpowered nor underpowered, therefore it's not broken
Your definition of broken is wrong, anon, because you apparently got it from the 3.PF threads.
Next, you'll say that being "balanced" means "everything is the same".
>>51631270
No, I'm pointing to something that does far more than anything else in it's class and saying that there is something wrong with it if it is so necessary. It's like having the wizard take a feat to do magic, it warps the game's choices.
>>51631003 already said it best, and the fact you both are arguing so hard based on a false definition and your own stubbornness is mildly impressive.

>> No.51631407

>>51631308
How does one romance npc innkeeper turned bandit lord?
How does one romance npc Bandit lord turned innkeeper?

>> No.51631424

>>51631180
I 'look forward' to endless threads with 2hu sperging about how broken 3pp is when combined with starfinder.

>> No.51631438

>>51631377
>Your definition of broken is wrong, anon, because you apparently got it from the 3.PF threads.
Then provide me with a better one you didn't just make up to "prove" that you're right. Protip: Definitions of words are determined by their usage. If everyone uses a word "wrong", the wrong meaning becomes the right one.

>> No.51631457

>>51631407
>inkeeper turned bandit lord
Probably by becoming part of the crew, that seems like a midlife crisis if anything.
>bandit lord turned inkeeper
That just sounds cute

>> No.51631494

>>51631457

>> No.51631533

>>51631494
I don't... what's the reference?

>> No.51631592

>>51631533

It is suppose to be a misnomer. The inn is from a movie called Tangled, which is a Rapunzel remake. It is full of thugs and bandits who have innocuous dreams, notably collecting ceramic unicorns, playing the piano and being a mime.

>> No.51631601

>ITT two faggots argue about whether or not a Feat Tax designed by retarded devs is "broken" or not

just use feat tax rules if it triggers you so much. I know I am still trying to get my GM to look into it, instead of just doing weird shit like combining Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility into one feat and not solving any problems.

>> No.51631700

>>51631457
Horrifyingly scarred woman with an eyepatch serves your drinks. Sweetest girl around

>> No.51631724

>>51631592
Oh, that makes sense. Never saw that movie.

>> No.51631846

>>51631592
I thought it was a reference from Shrek 3 and the innkeeper tranny.

>> No.51631882

>>51631700
I need art for this pronto

>> No.51631892

>>51631846
They're not transvestites, they're just the ugly step-sisters from Cinderella.

>> No.51631966

>>51631269
Again, talking about power levels is beside the point. Power Attack is a well designed ability from a game design perspective, and is neither overpowered or underpowered. Most overpowered things are broken, but not all broken abilities are overpowered. When placed alongside all of Pathfinders feats it becomes broken by that same merit.

Pathfinder is fucked, and Power Attack is broken as a consequence of that. That still makes Power Attack broken within the context of the game. It's similar to the logic used to go after full casters for being broken, just on a much smaller scale.

>> No.51631984

>>51631966
Again, citation fucking needed. You're just pulling that definition of broken out of your ass.

>> No.51631998

>>51631724

You should. It's very silly, but still enjoyable somehow.

>> No.51632005

Playing in a 3.PF game where wee will be playing a criminal syndicate. We have to base our characters off of folklore, any suggestions on cool fairy tales to read?

>> No.51632044

https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/68369/pathfinder-adventure-path-shattered-star

>> No.51632050

>>51631966
Trying to play pathfinder AC/attack bonus math is not really intuitive
You can throw a stone and hit a feat or any special effect that gives +1 AC or +1 attack bonus. Now, the +1 can make big difference in situations where you think about iterative attacks and how likely avoiding hits becomes.

But it is not intuitive. It has never been intuitive.
That is pretty much the biggest problem 3.0 has always faced. The fucking combat system is not fucking intuitive and thus chore to use.

>> No.51632056

>>51630694
Part of the problem is that technically Trench Fighter doesn't get proficiency in Firearms, because the archetype assumes that they're martial or simple weapons (being from WWI-era Russian troops).

>> No.51632061

>>51632005

The only answer is Dick Turpin

>> No.51632102

>>51631984
I feel like if I try to give you a definition you'll sperg out, and if I reference some other source you'll also sperg.

What is your definition of broken? I had assumed that most people defined it as something along the lines of "an ability that is significantly more or less powerful than other comparable abilities." If so, Power Attack falls into that definition because so many other feats are worse.

>> No.51632117

>>51632044
Fuck off with your shit game, no one wants it.

>> No.51632139

>>51626332
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-irongrip

Wow, I didn't know this existed. Pretty cheap too.

>> No.51632167

>>51632117
No one wants yours either.

>> No.51632181

>>51632102
>What is your definition of broken?
Something that is either under- or overpowered, or otherwise significantly warps the game balance.

You might argue that power attack warps the game balance, but it actually doesn't swing the average DPR very significantly.

>> No.51632213

>>51632167
At least they're not advertising it.

>> No.51632215

>>51632167
Thank god for that

>> No.51632216

>>51632181
Ok, so Power Attack would fall under

>Something that is either under- or overpowered
Because it is vastly superior to other feats, no?

>> No.51632253

>>51631966
>>51631984
>>51632102
>>51632181
Can you chucklefucks dial it back to the core of the issue, because you're both bitching about semantics. Figure out what you both agree on and work from there.

As far as I can tell, you both agree on at least the following:
>90%~ of feats are utter garbage, especially at low levels, specifically for martials
>Power Attack is one of the few feats at low levels that is worthwhile, to the point it is basically a Tax on the player instead of a choice
>This warps your choices because it becomes a non-choice

Is this where you both are right now?

>> No.51632272

>>51632216
...no? That just means most other feats suck, not that Power attack is overpowered. And it isn't like there aren't other feats that are comparable in power to power attack.

>> No.51632286

>>51632253
I was trying to say that a long time ago, but anon keeps trying to turn it into a power level discussion, which isn't the point.

>> No.51632309

>>51632272
>And it isn't like there aren't other feats that are comparable in power to power attack
Right, like Sacred Geometry. Except SG is usually banned because casters don't need the help.

>> No.51632325

>>51632309
Like metamagic feats. Like save boosting feats. Like dex to damage feats. Like deadly aim. Like...

>> No.51632327

So the Symbiotic Slayer Vigilante from Legendary Games has a cool theme where you can have a clash of personality between you and your symbiote, where the symbiote attempts to take over. It also has a power where if you voluntarily give control over to the symbiote it is more powerful than normal.

Does anything else, Paizo or 3pp have something similar to this? Where I can voluntarily give up control to something for extra power. Or something else where I can take on large penalties for temporarily gaining a lot of power.

>> No.51632348

>>51632325
TWF
Rapid Shot
Improved Iniatitive

It actually fucking DOES SOMETHING. Most feats DON'T DO ANYTHING.

>> No.51632350

>>51632327
There's Medium!

Except you're giving up control in order to catch up to other classes

>> No.51632355

>>51632327
The Medium

>> No.51632369

For the costs of poisons, is that the cost per one time coating?

>> No.51632370

>>51632327
Haunted Spiritualist does something similar, Medium too, but the Symbiotic Slayer does it the best I've seen.

>> No.51632386

>>51632309
Sacred Geometry is way more powerful than PA. PA is only notable because A) baseline martial damage kind of sucks if you don't have one of the handful of class features that really ramps up your damage, like Smite or FE, and B) accuracy very, very rapidly outstrips enemy AC, and the tail end iteratives aren't going to hit even without PA.

Either way, I'm going to reiterate that 5E took your approach and it fucking murdered the game's combat. I haven't hated a game's combat that much since I played 3.0 with sword and board.

>> No.51632403

>>51632309
Isn't Sacred Geometry literally every metamagic feat in one, though?

>> No.51632427

So my character is in the market of getting a prostitute for companion to the lonely. I realized that getting a middle aged to old prostitute ups my chances of getting one with the charisma I need.

So here is my thought process:
>the prostitute uses the NPC array, starting at 13 charisma
>they have a +2 racial bonus in charisma
>I pay the extra money for a level 4 prostitute, who put their +1 attribute in charisma
>the prostitute is old, giving +2 to charisma

This brings me to a 18 charisma prostitute.

Now here are some questions. What race of prostitute should I go for?

Races with a Cha bonus are the following:
>Human
>Half-orc
>Half-elf
>Gnome
>Halfling
>Assimar (base)
>Aasimar (Agathion-Blooded)
>Aasimar (Angel-Blooded)
>Aasimar (Azata-Blooded)
>Aasimar (Peri-Blooded)
>Tiefling (Demon-Spawn)
>Tiefling (Div-Spawn)
>Tiefling (Kyton-Spawn)
>Tiefling (Rakshasa-Spawn)
>Catfolk
>Changeling
>Drow
>Noble Drow
>Fetchling
>Gillman
>Ifrit
>Kitsune
>Merfolk
>Nagaji
>Suli
>Vishkanya

Which do you think will not incur extra costs? I am thinking likely Aasimar cost more as prostitutes because they are Aasimar. Also who will look best while in the old age category?

>> No.51632448

>>51632369
Yep

>> No.51632449

>>51632350
>>51632355
>>51632370
I have given the medium a look, but it seemed awful for the most part. I'll look at Haunted Spiritualist.

>> No.51632459

>Which do you think will not incur extra costs?
Human
>Also who will look best while in the old age category?
Drow

>> No.51632465

>>51632427
Kill yourself.

>> No.51632468

>>51632427
>an old prostitute

Have some fucking dignity, holy shit dude

>> No.51632473

So, what do you think it is more useful, either from the gameplay or roleplaying perspective, maw or claws for a tiefling? 1d6pts damage, 2x1d4 primary natural attacks.

>> No.51632474

Magical item stat bonuses don't let you qualify for feats right?

>> No.51632480

>>51632386
>Either way, I'm going to reiterate that 5E took your approach and it fucking murdered the game's combat
I think it might be a matter of opinion, because most of the games I like like DtD or 5e generally have a more limited list of feats that are balanced amongst themselves. Games like 3.5 or RIFTS that populate with a shitton of content generally end up working against themselves I think.

>> No.51632496

>>51632465
Wait what, why?

>>51632459
True, but what about races that are actively ugly for the most part, like Rakshasa born tieflings? Or Nagaji. My guess they might be of lower cost than average.

>>51632468
It's either that or pay top dollar for a level 12 prostitute, or a prostitute that is working on the heroic NPC array.

Or sleep with a party member.

>> No.51632503

>>51632480
Than your taste pretty much stands diametrically opposed to most people hear.

PF has a lot of shit to sift through, but 9/10 you're guaranteed to be able to do something well if you put your mind to it. It allows a lot more creativity.

5e is perfectly fine if you're AOK with super generic blase fantasy archetypes, and that's not a bad thing. It's just not for me, speaking personally.

>> No.51632510

>>51632474
They do after 24 hours when they become "permanent".

>>51632468
>not wanting a sassy old prostitute to make you eggs in the morning
GOTTA GET THAT SASS

>> No.51632525

>>51632459

Drow and the Elves in general probably look downright stunning in old age.

Speaking of looking, I've found a thread full of Tieflings I figure you folk would find fascinating: >>51631241

>> No.51632528

>>51632403
Not necessarily, but the point is that, like Power Attack, it's really strong among feats and that makes it broken within the context feats. SG also has the added bonus of boosting an already strong option, which makes it broken in overall game design.

>> No.51632537

>>51632510
>They do after 24 hours when they become "permanent".

Wait wait wait, are you telling me I could take off my Belt of Giant's Strength after wearing it for 24 hours?

>> No.51632544

>>51632496
Demand would be low, but supply would be lower, they at least offer something "exotic".

>> No.51632546

What kind of hat/clothes would be the best to hide a Tiefling's horns?

>> No.51632552

>>51632496
A. Your character is using companion to the lonely
B. Your L I T E R A L LY minmaxing what fucking whore your character is going to and on top of that have decided that he's going to have a geriatric fetish because it gets more +'s
C. You're bringing that to the table.

>> No.51632563

>>51632503
>Than your taste pretty much stands diametrically opposed to most people hear
I mean, so is anyone's who doesn't like kitsunes or lewd posting

>> No.51632576

>>51632537
They don't ACTUALLY become permanent. They just count as being permanent for the purposes of selecting feats, number of spell slots and the like.

>> No.51632591

>>51632563
>I mean, so is anyone's who doesn't like kitsunes or lewd posting
No, Kitsune faggot is like one or two people. And lewd posting is like maybe 5.

>> No.51632592

>>51632563

I thought 5e had gotten a kitsune race a while back.

>> No.51632602

>>51632528
Except the main difference is that Power Attack is better than the majority of feats because the majority of feats are garbage, boosting its status as "it actually does something", in a similar vein to someone looking at the "generic ranged fighting" tree and thinking "hey, this actually makes ranged weapons work". Sacred Geometry is competing with Metamagic Feats. Many of which are ALREADY GOOD, meaning it is directly competing with things that are already worth taking.

Sacred Geometry is competing with stuff like Dazing, which is already questionable, and ends up capable of replicating those effects "but better".

>> No.51632618

>>51632537
No, they count as permanent and shut of fif you take it off again.

>> No.51632624

>>51632480
IMO, take it one step further and do what Legend did and make each feat having by itself agnostic of other shit your character does, but still have it worth expending your limited resource.

>> No.51632635

>>51632552
Man I just want the rerolls. It's either that or sleep with the sorcerer. I am buying this because I want want to ask who in the party wants to diddle my vigilante.

>> No.51632638

>>51632546
>What kind of hat/clothes would be the best to hide a Tiefling's horns?

How extreme are these horns?

>> No.51632665

>>51632602
Exactly. SG is busted and it boosts already strong options, so it gets banned.

PA is busted but it props up weaker character options, so it gets a pass because the only other option would be to extensively rewrite the game.

>> No.51632672 [DELETED] 

>>51632602
Actually, correction because I'm retarded and haven't looked at Sacred Geometry in like a year: It doesn't replicate other metamagic feats, but it makes it so using those feats ends up being basically free in terms of resource expenditure. It'd be like if there was a feat to allow a player to bench press weights IRL in order to completely negate the penalties of using Power Attack and Combat Expertise.

>> No.51632678

>>51632546
Most tieflings don't have horns.

>> No.51632682

>>51632480
It's not about small but useful feats.

>> No.51632690

Rolled 84, 35, 67 = 186 (3d100)

Oh man. I know how all you guys tell me tieflings are cute. Cute little hooves and the like. So I'm gonna roll up my character's tieflings waifu. Let's see what she looks like friends!

>> No.51632705

>>51632427
CotL doesn't actually specify the act you do needs to be sexual. An hour spent doing girl-to-girl talk, braiding someone's hair, or in particularly strenuous sparring matches counts.

>> No.51632707

>>51632690
>Other: incongruous footprints
>Hands: other
>Teeth: fanged
Huh, that's actually boring. Literally just sounds like a standard Rakshasa born.

>> No.51632722

>>51632705
It has to be an act of physical pleasure. I can just have it be something like massages by an elderly masseuse.

>> No.51632738

>>51632690
I prefer using the Planescape tables, myself. The Paizo tables for Aasimar and Tieflings usually end up as "pretty" and "ugly" respectively.

>> No.51632740

>>51632722
Are you telling me that getting your hair braided isn't physical pleasure when they massage your scalp?

>> No.51632745

>>51632665
Power Attack is not busted, it's a reasonable effect that LOOKS "busted" because it's surrounded by hot garbage, and because it's something that should just be something a PC can do without spending a feat. The only things it is actually competing with are things to enable combat styles, which according to you would also count as "busted", because they actually have a meaningful impact on what you do.

>> No.51632751

>>51632740
My character doesn't have much hair to braid. He has a scar covering a good portion of his scalp.

>> No.51632768

When would you use a Greatsword over a Falchion?

>> No.51632772

>>51632638

I'm ponder if I should go with something like a hat, whig, natural hair, or some clothing hanging there to hide them.

>> No.51632786

>>51632768
When you don't feel like using a Falchion.

>> No.51632788

>>51632768
When you value slightly more damage over crit-fishing. Also, damage dice are somewhat better if you can get a size increase.

>> No.51632796

>>51632772

Personally, I'd suggest getting them engraved, make them enhance whatever hairstyle you want to rock!

>> No.51632799

>>51632768
>Greatsword
>Falchion
>Not using superior 1d10 18-20/x2, both Piercing AND Slashing, both Heavy Blade AND Polearm Nodachi

>> No.51632813

>>51632745
>Power Attack is not busted, it's a reasonable effect that LOOKS "busted" because it's surrounded by hot garbage,
Firstly, I agree

But if you win a race because everyone else got disqualified, then you still won. That's why I keep reiterating that Power Attack is broken compared to other feats.

>The only things it is actually competing with are things to enable combat styles, which according to you would also count as "busted", because they actually have a meaningful impact on what you do.
Correct, if the vast majority of feats are dog shit then anything that is even reasonably good becomes broken by comparison. Context is crazy like that.

>> No.51632823

>>51632768
If you're not going to bother with Keen or Improved Critical, or are going to be using size increases.

>> No.51632832

>>51632799
>>51632788
>>51632786
>>51632768
>greatsword
>falchion
>nodachi
F A L C A T A

>> No.51632876

>>51632665
>PA is busted
Bullshit. PA is a perfectly reasonable option.

>> No.51632890

Is there anything at all that makes the Magical Child Vigilante any better?

>> No.51632915

>>51632813
>Correct, if the vast majority of feats are dog shit then anything that is even reasonably good becomes broken by comparison. Context is crazy like that.

THAT IS NOT WHAT BROKEN MEANS YOU IDIOT. IF SOMETHING IS BROKEN SOLELY BY THE VIRTUE OF EVERYTHING ELSE BEING SHIT, THEN IT IS NOT BROKEN.

>> No.51632926

>>51632890

Not really? Now that the Transformation Sequence has been made available to other kinds of vigilantes, pretty much the only thing Magical Child can do is use an Improved Familiar with an archetype.

>> No.51632931

>>51632890
Depends.
Do you have a concept which is not a blatant rip-off of Card Captor Sakura or "Contract?" for role play?

>> No.51632940

>>51632915
That's exactly what broken means, you're just too butt-blasted to understand context.

>> No.51632951

>>51632940
imbalanced != broken

>> No.51632953

>>51632813
There are two contexts for "broken", and that is where people are getting annoyed at you. There's looking at the average of all choices, then there's looking at the average of abilities that actually get used in play.

You're looking at "broken" in the context of ALL CHOICES in the system, where Power Attack is like a student getting a B- where everyone around him is getting F's. Against the average, it stands head and shoulders above. The issue here is that the majority of those choices are SO SHIT they never see use, meaning they exist solely to deflate the average.

In the context of ACTUAL PLAY for the majority of games, power attack is not Broken, because it does not break the game itself. This is where most people look when discussing if something is broken. Power Attack is a tax, but it doesn't shatter the game over its knee.

>> No.51632984

>>51632940
No it doesn't you fucking retard. Just because you pull definition out of your ass doesn't mean the word actually changes its meaning.

>> No.51632985

>>51626641
We had an accountant

>> No.51633003

>>51632985
Hmm...that's OOC....also Molthune gm was an accountant...hmm...

>> No.51633019

Power Attack is 'broken' not by its power, but by its ubiquity.

>> No.51633020

>>51632985
Rise of the Runelords: Spires of Xin-Shalast.
Sure you faggots played it with a group with a number bigger than four members strong and with a 25 points build.

>> No.51633027

>>51633019
See >>51632915

>> No.51633039

>>51633020
4 players, 20 pb.

>> No.51633052

>>51633020
How can you even tell? There's like a runelords game starting in roll20 every 2 months or something.

>> No.51633061

>>51632951
>>51632984
This is rehashing. You can't say thay power attack is more powerful than the majority of feats, but then claim that power attack is not overpowered as a feat.

>>51632953
Right, which is why I said Power Attack is broken as a consequence of the system. It breaks the feat system, or at least partially invalidates it. The problem, though, is the system itself, not Power Attack.

>> No.51633080

>>51632985
It isn't autism, it's called roleplaying a servitor of Abadarjust kidding it was Mammon

>> No.51633081

>>51633039
>20 point build.
Did the GM also spoon feed you all?

>> No.51633084

>>51626641
Juggling. Our characters form a circle and start juggling items from the numerous bags of holding we have, dump it on the ground and start juggling them until something good falls into our hands.

>> No.51633093

>>51633081
Nah GM was pretty new at pf and was more of a dungeon world/maidrpg kind of guy.

>> No.51633126

>>51633061
>This is rehashing. You can't say thay power attack is more powerful than the majority of feats, but then claim that power attack is not overpowered as a feat.

I can and I do. Power attack does not break the game. It barely even alters it in a meaningful way for characters who take it. It is, in no way or form, broken or overpowered.

>> No.51633149

>>51633052
Which most of them doesn't conclude because of TPKs, mainly at the second chapter or the third if the GM is competent and does play them as intended, with a 4 strong members party built with 15 points.
Those games which manage to reach to Xin-Shalast are done by inexperienced GMs who didn't prep properly or babysitter ones that are far too benevolent with their players.

>> No.51633179

>>51633061
Power Attack itself is not overpowered, is the thing. It is more powerful than other feats in the entire system, because the vast majority of feats in the entire system are vastly UNDERpowered. This is a problem of the system having so much bloat in feat selection, as you (kinda) point out.

At this point we're just going in circles over semantics, though. You are arguing about the technical as-written definitions of things, while everyone else is telling you that game balance is not determined by the lowest common denominator.

>> No.51633186

>>51632745
Bustedness can be relative anon.

>> No.51633197

>>51633126
>It is, in no way or form, broken or overpowered.
But this untrue. It is more powerful than other feats. It does not break the game, but it breaks the feat system. Partially at least.

>It barely even alters it in a meaningful way for characters who take it.
As far as I am aware, being a competent melee fighter means you have to have Power Attack in most cases. Assuming that's true, that's bad design. It goes against the idea of feats being used to customize your character, because you're having to give up feat slots just to contribute to your role effectively.

>> No.51633204

What feats are worth taking for a Slayer?

>> No.51633205

>>51632832
>falcata
>not superior 18-20/x3 punching dagger with SoM

>> No.51633214

>>51633061
>This is rehashing. You can't say thay power attack is more powerful than the majority of feats, but then claim that power attack is not overpowered as a feat.
You're right, it should be an inherent to the attack action and not a feat.

Again, the fact that everything else is bad doesn't make power attack too good in the actual game. Because the game has the assumption that power attack is around and used, it uses this assumption to determine the math for enemy HP.

Without power attack at its cost or less you end up with characters unable to do enough damage. With power attack characters are at power, not under powered or over powered compared to the system's assumptions in relation to enemy health.

>> No.51633228

>>51633149
Party had a mad bomber alchemist and a necromancer sorcerer that insisted on arcane eye before we entered anything dungeon shaped. We had a few close calls but there's nothing quite like turning a recently dead glabrezu or rune giant into a bloody skeleton that turns shit around.

>> No.51633238

>>51633179
>At this point we're just going in circles over semantics, though. You are arguing about the technical as-written definitions of things, while everyone else is telling you that game balance is not determined by the lowest common denominator.
I know that, but I'm bored at work and I think grading on a curve has merit sometimes.

>> No.51633247

>>51633197
>But this untrue. It is more powerful than other feats. It does not break the game, but it breaks the feat system. Partially at least.
You're not looking at the feat system in a wider context. If your idea of "balanced" is making all feats as weak as some of the feats out there.

There are feats that actively make you a worse character, you realize that right? Are you suggesting that these feats be catered to?

>Assuming that's true, that's bad design. It goes against the idea of feats being used to customize your character, because you're having to give up feat slots just to contribute to your role effectively.
Yes, no one is arguing that feat tax is a good idea. Power Attack should be a part of the system inherent to the attack action, not a feat.

>> No.51633253

>>51633197
>It breaks the feat system, or at least partially invalidates it.
No, it doesn't.

What it does is allow strength based martials to provide a more effective damage output.

You don't have to pick it if you're not a strength based martial. It's just a broad based feat.

Put it like this; if you removed power attack from game, people STILL won't pick the other feats that are hot garbage because they're STILL HOT GARBAGE.

>> No.51633257

>>51632768
A) If you're hitting for less than 44 damage with a Falchion without Improved Crit/Keen, or 24 with.
B) If you're fighting crit-immune enemies frequently.

I'd take the Falchion in general because while they're both killing things in two hits in the early game, the Falchion has a slightly higher chance to instagib an enemy with a crit there.

>> No.51633263

How would the pfg collective stat and make a tuning fork to be used as a mace?

>> No.51633264

>>51633238
You're actually retarded then, thanks.

>> No.51633265

>>51633214
This is an aside, but has it ever struck anyone else as weird how few creatures seem to have power attack in their statblocks?

>> No.51633306

>>51633197
Nobody said it wasn't bad design. We know pathfinder is full of shit design, Power Attack is a tax and is shit design. The issue is that it is very difficult to get the majority of players, or GMs, to accept changing that, so it has to be worked around.

This is just like how Weapon Finesse as-is is also a tax, or how Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are taxes, or how TWF and Vital Strike require multiple feats despite being worse than a two-handed full-attack.

>> No.51633311

>>51633197
>But this untrue. It is more powerful than other feats. It does not break the game, but it breaks the feat system. Partially at least.
No it doesn't. It's not even the most powerful feat a martial can take, just the most ubiquitous. If Paizo makes up a million feats that do literally nothing, that still doesn't mean skill focus is suddenly broken.

>As far as I am aware, being a competent melee fighter means you have to have Power Attack in most cases. Assuming that's true, that's bad design. It goes against the idea of feats being used to customize your character, because you're having to give up feat slots just to contribute to your role effectively.
That's not true. You can easily make a competent melee fighter who doesn't have power attack as long as you have some other way of boosting your damage, which most full BAB classes(and many medium BAB classes) do. Power attack is just the obvious choice, not to mention a prerequisite to a lot of other feats.

>> No.51633312

>>51633204
POWER ATTACK.

But no seriously. You take power attack and then cheat everything else in your build with Ranger combat styles. That's really what makes Slayer so good.

>> No.51633317

>>51633312

What Ranger Combat style do you recommend?

>> No.51633322

>>51633247
>There are feats that actively make you a worse character, you realize that right? Are you suggesting that these feats be catered to?
I'm sorry, I don't know why you seem to think that I am advocating that Power Attack would be weakened. I'd prefer to see feats brought up to its level, which is thankfully something that Paizo has been slowly doing more often.

>> No.51633323

>>51633265
Probably because the few that do have PA only have it as a pre-requisite.

>> No.51633331

>>51633312
>Slayer
>Good

O, surely you jest good sir! My sides have flown o'er the Lord's keep!

>> No.51633350

>High level and extremely wealthy giants
>Spends wbl on +3 clubs
Why don't these fucks get swords again?

>> No.51633370

>>51633317
Archery is good for most builds. Even if you aren't actually an archer it gives you ranged options without any significant sacrifice for the situations where you need it.

Menacing has Shatter Defenses without the taxes, I believe it's the best straight damage option for a two-handed Slayer if you can afford the intimidate.

Two weapon fighting is about the best anyone can do two weapon fighting, except it's two weapon fighting so it's still shit.

>> No.51633392

So I've joined a campaign and I'm stuck deciding what class I should play. Our current party is a Barbarian, Cleric, Paladin, and Magus.

What would be a good fit for party composition?

>> No.51633409

>>51633392
Rogue, be the trap cuck

>> No.51633419

>>51633409
>Rogue
>Not empiricist investigator
>not even at least Unchained Rogue

u 'avin a laff m8

>> No.51633420

>>51633409
You misspelled Archeologist Bard.

>> No.51633428

How do you guys organize your spells on your character sheet? Do you just write them in the order you get them? Sort them by school? By level? Some other method?

What about as a cleric? Do you just not bother writing it down?

>> No.51633464

>>51633350
Maybe they don't have eyesight or fine motor skills to make swords for themselves that actually hit Medium and Small adventurers with a proportionally sharp edge. Maybe from that size difference a Small character is just getting bludgeoned with a rounded or flat surface by what looks and works like a sharp edge to a giant. In which case, you might as well just go all-in on making the weapon a big heavy bludgeon first and foremost.

>> No.51633470

>>51633428
I usually write blank spell slots by level, then fill them in when I select spells if I'm playing a prepared caster.

>> No.51633487

>>51633428
I print them out as handy little cards!

Just kidding, I say I'm going to do that "sometime" and instead slow everyone down while I look shit up mid-combat.

>> No.51633489

>>51633464
Its still kind of dumb to imagine a giant spending money on getting a what amounts to a plain log with rusty nails magically enchanted.

I mean at least get morning stars or something made of metal.

>> No.51633509

What are the pros and cons of the different ways to fight (shield+sword, two weapon fighting, two-handed weapons, polearms, bows, crossbows, guns etc)?

>> No.51633533

>>51633509
None of them are as good as casting a spell that ends the encounter in a single turn.

>> No.51633548

>>51633533
>>51633509
And, to be clear, there are VERY few spells that can actually end an encounter in a single turn. In fact there are less than 5 that can be used in any way that approaches safe and most are highly situational and require certain enemy types, placement, or luck.

>> No.51633564

>>51633509
>Two handed
Only need power attack and lots of str, can spend feats geting utility like AWT and even master craftsman>craft Wondrous item
>TWF
Kind of shit desu senpai. Expensive when it comes to feats and upgrades and also pretty shitty when enemies actually take advantage of moement
>S&B
Never get hurt by regular attacks ever, no real incentive for the enemy to keep attacking you
>Bows
Feat intensive like TWF but actually rewarding.
>Polearms
Same as twf except you can now get combat reflexes for action economy.
>Everything else
Literally worse than TWF so imagine how shit that must be.

>> No.51633574

>>51633509
Bows and two-handed melee weapons are good. Since you have to ask that question, you should probably stay away from the other fighting styles. They can be made to work(in particular, if you're optimizing solely for damage, TWF is often the best melee fighting style, depending on your class), but it takes work and often involves making heavy sacrifices to everything else. Guns and crossbows especially are notoriously shit unless you're taking a class that makes them usable. And even then they're not great, just passable.

>> No.51633584

>>51633564
>polearms
I mean same as twohanded

>> No.51633628

>>51633617
>>51633617
>>51633617
>>51633617
>>51633617

>> No.51635962

>>51627849
It could've been adorable. Instead the pally started schmoozing with the witch.

Downright diabolical

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