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[ERROR] No.50057050 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Pathfinder General /pfg/

If you want build advice make sure to say what 3pp you can use, if any.

Duo application edition; what are some examples of duo applications you've seen or played?

Unified /pfg/ link repository: http://pastebin.com/JTj1yEmU

Kineticists of Porphyra IV: End of an Era playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XTgiUdDSrTCvATEDeDJ4MnbDgS6KEBLu2e9mjj5fwaw/edit
Broken Shackles Playtest: https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/59701/broken-shackles-test-play

Old thread: >>50046904

>> No.50057090

None. I haven't played or seen any duo applications.

>> No.50057152

Anyone know some good games currently take application? Anyone want to do some duo, triple, or quad apps of The Conquerer and his Generals?

>> No.50057158

If accepted, me and someone else are doing a dual-app to that RotRL/Jade Regent ad that got posted here.

>> No.50057177

I'm currently playing a in game with one of my friends that we duo-apped for.
She's a naive noble sorceress driven by wanderlust and I'm her world-weary, silent protector Warder.

>> No.50057287

There are worse fates.

>> No.50057307


What are you planning to do with the characters, anon?


Hey! Hey! No! That was my character, not yours!

>> No.50057329

I, being the arrogant piece of shit I am, want to play the Conquerer himself. The generals and he would be a merry band of bros, until the Conquerer is eventually betrayed in the final hour by either the Cunning Strategist or the Willy Trickster after the Stoic Muscle is murdered and has his murder covered up just before this. Then if I survive I blame the wrong one of the two and alienate my last friend, just as the other wanted. Or perhaps they both sought to betray me.

>> No.50057337

Yeah, I guess I could be playing pathfinder.

>> No.50057358

Not sure yet, really. One of us will likely do something with a Warder and be the protectory type, and the other is likely either some sort of mage/squire/healslut.

>> No.50057459


There's a lot of ways you can go with that combination, actually; there's always the memetastic build of lustful Qadiran sorceress and the Ulfen that loves her, but something I've always taken a fancy to is the temple knight and his clerical charge, or the knight assigned to guard the oracle whose prophetic visions force her beyond the confines of a castle wall.

Think Eygon and Irina, only sweeter.

>> No.50057471


>> No.50057477

>All thes duo apps
I hope y'all remember to play with the other players in the gruop

>> No.50057502

It's not really a duo app since it's my regular table, but I'm currently playing as a lower body most of the time.
My friend and I are ratfolk vigilantes fighting to end prejudice and violence against monstrous races. During the day, we masquerade as Rotta Niviventer, respected elf scholar and outspoken activist for racial equality. At night, we become Tooth & Claw, the dreaded dynamic duo - fighting to bring down evil men and raise up our monstrous kin to their rightful place in society!
It's a lot of fun, both mechanically and otherwise.

>> No.50057623


>Someone actually went with the "two ratfolk vigilantes in a big coat" idea

Shine on, you crazy diamonds.

>> No.50057660


Gargoyle man in Dark Souls 3, has a voice like two granite slabs grinding together and an attitude as ugly as his armor, but behind all the foul temper he's genuinely devoted to Irina and defending her from harm (as knights from his land would devote entire careers to serving one woman.)

The backstory behind the characters is that Eygon's a knight of Carim, a theocracy that places great emphasis on faith, especially when told by blind priests or priestesses.

Irina was one such priestess, and a maiden Eygon swore to keep as his lady. Irina failed to become a Fire Keeper due to an extreme presence of Dark within her, Eygon took her and fled to Lothric as a failure of her magnitude in a place like Carim would probably spell a knife in the back or poison in her porridge.

And that's where you meet him, sitting outside a well-defended jail cell that houses Irina and insisting she's a worthless whelp you shouldn't bother with, and if you ever rescue her he's on you like a sheepdog with his flock.

Now, there's a lot more to their story from there, but that's pretty much the backstory. The gist is Eygon's a gruff knight devoted to defending a blind woman.

>> No.50057696

Does it count as a duo-app if there's only two players?

>> No.50057910

I'm considering applying for the lewd RotRL, and I'd like your opinion of my character concept.

She's an Aberrant Aegis/Symbiat who was born and raised in a cult dedicated to the Old Ones, and had a horrorterror melded into her mind by the cultists. She's since escaped, and has decided to live her life to the fullest and have as good a life as she can before the Old Ones devour the world and regurgitate it as a place of madness and despair.

And as for the lewd tentacles, she hasn't realized that they have any other use than fighting.yet. Hell, she may end up being the most vanilla party member when it comes to sex.

>> No.50057923

I've never been able to actually play a wizard. I know all the theory behind it, but have never been able to put it into practice. I normally play martials (last few characters were a Fighter, Barbarian, Slayer, and UC Rogue), and occasionally I play 6 level casters (Alchemist being the most common).

I just really want to try wizard, but no one seems to want a wizard around.

>> No.50057940

Did that WotR game ever choose players?

>> No.50057958


That actually sounds really cute, I'm getting some real Laori Vaus vibes from her (the good ones.)

>> No.50057965

Wizards are only ok if the player intentionally doesn't play it properly or doesn't know how to do that
A properly played and built wizard is the stuff of nightmares for a reason

>> No.50058008

Yo! New author for Spheres of Power here. The Creation Sphere Handbook is now in open playtest, tear it apart to help me fix it up, enjoy it, yell at it, do what you do.


>> No.50058016

The GM is busy so it's still pending.

>> No.50058055

>Creation Sphere

>> No.50058073

>A properly played and built wizard is the stuff of nightmares for a reason
It only presents an issue if the player intentionally tries to use one of the broken strategies, like optimized summoning span, or exploits actually non-functional parts of the game, like blood money or the simulacrum spell.

If the player does not intentionally try to break the game, or chooses to play one of the more broken casting styles (mainly just optimized summoning spam) it's fine. Also if the setting has logical consequences of wizards who abuse their power (the kind of "just mind control everyone" thing people spout doesn't fly in the vast majority of settings with any kind of government because mind control should be highly illegal).

>> No.50058125

So mentioning Wyrwoods (and refluff potential for them) in the last thread got me to actually go take a look again, and... How does the Construct creature type interact with some of the spheres? Are there any spheres that don't play nice? To look at a specific example, the life sphere's Cure is positive energy like normal heal spells, but there's also Revitilize's fast healing. While the positive energy heal obviously wouldn't work on a construct, the fast healing should work, correct?

Honestly, the idea of playing a refluffed Wyrwood Incanter with a hefty dip into the Life sphere amuses me greatly.

>> No.50058164



>> No.50058226

I tried not to. Let me know what you think!

>> No.50058305

FINALLY! After so long of other spheres pilfering it's goods, we can now have a reason to play it.
Gonna check it. Hopefully it's enough to transmute my dick to adamantium

>> No.50058341

Quality work so far, I'd say. I greatly appreciate the Gate of Babylon archetype and specialization.

I know this isn't a useful comment, but it's all I've got to say. Looks good.

>> No.50058511

I would assume the Life sphere's fast healing is positive energy, and would not work on constructs either.

>> No.50058532

Lingchi Warrior vs Psychic Armory, FIGHT!

>> No.50058578

>Gate of Babylon
No anons, that would be the Soaring Blade Armorist.
Lingchi is obviously UBW

PsyArm is Senbonzakura Kageyoshi

>> No.50058624

I am of the opinion that Armorist blows ass so I wasn't aware, my bad.

>> No.50058635

What's the best way to make this actually worthwhile?


Is there even a point?

>> No.50058647

Any chance we could get the Avowed playtest in the OP?

>> No.50058661

wtf is a plasma blade's stats? You should be including stuff like that.

>> No.50058680

didn't get any responses on this so i'ma post it again

just looking for some feedback on it

>> No.50058692

What's wrong with the armorist?

>> No.50058735

Should that be Spirit Totems? I mean, it seems fine, but I'm not really getting any character concepts from that alone.

>> No.50058737

Is there an imgur album for Blood of the Beast?

>> No.50058760

I'm very tempted to use the idea for a BBEG and his subordinates.
or run the game myself, if I can find the time

>> No.50058770

Spirit totems, yeah, herp.

>> No.50058922

In upstate NY, I ran a PF game in the Forgotten Realms for a married couple.

The husband was a Paladin of Helm.
The wife was a Cleric of Tempus.

The fought sea monsters together on the Sea of Fallen Stars.

>> No.50058933

>tfw nobody to duo-app with in that RotRL campaign

>> No.50058984

I wanna be from the meth woods!

>> No.50059108

Base armorist is the Monk of SiP
>2+Int skill points on a Wis based martial class
>Class abilities are just discounted magic weapon and armor
>shity scaling on equipment
>Most equipment features/qualities locked behind needing to buy them with abilities, limiting your access to the better ones
>very poorly/not future proofed
>1/2 casting isn't enough to make up for lack of good features
>only good option is to take Bound Staff to boost your weaker casting
Archetypes help mitigate these problems, but there's only so much you can do with the chasis

>> No.50059241

Soaring Blade is from the Telekinesis handbook, and is pretty serviceable, especially since it allows you to store Gargantuan weapons and smash people with them from a distance

>> No.50059245

what rotr?

>> No.50059253

When I ran the campaign (1370 DR), it was inhabited by chimeras, genocidal elves, crusading gold dwarves, and a green dragon that was one of the Chosen of Tiamat.

It was not recommended as a starting region in Player's Guide to Faerun, but I might have allowed it.

>> No.50059345

Rise of the Runelords

>> No.50059365

no what rotr campaign fag

>> No.50059379


The lewd one recruiting from here that's running in January and has like 20 people already gunning for the spots.

>> No.50059420


>> No.50059461


So, how would you go about making Pinky and the Brain?

>> No.50059468

got a link if its times work for me we could duo-app :^)

>> No.50059489

>duo-app :^)
It's amazing how people can make memes out of nothing.

>> No.50059498

>FMA inspired Drawback
Does that mean going through the Door let's you buy off-the-wall Drawback in exchange for your bodyparts?

>> No.50059514

whats meme about that

>> No.50059782

Has it even been spoiled yet?

>> No.50059805

It isn't out yet, even for subscribers, try again mid-month

>> No.50059871

What are some good adventure hooks for a first session of 1st-level characters that aren't "You're in the middle of battle/a fire/a tavern, wat do", and that allow them to come together out of mutual interest instead of being stuck working together?

>> No.50059877

will it have a furry panther that rapes you and turns you into a busty furry panther chick

>> No.50059879


You're all at the wedding of a person everyone knows.

Alternatively, you're all at the funeral of a person everyone knew.

Be sure to include eulogies or SPEECHES.

>> No.50059891

A letter has been delivered to each of them at their homes, asking them to meet a reclusive noble at his villa, and promising wealth beyond their wildest dreams.

Bonus points if, when they arrive, the noble has no idea who they are or what they're doing here.

>> No.50059911

>tfw have to do the tavern start because of a mistake i made
i have sinned, my fellow GMs

>> No.50059931



>> No.50059942

I let them make characters weeks ahead of time and told them to think of why they would be in the starting region.

Forgive me father, for I have sinned.

>> No.50060037

You've all been sentenced to death, regardless of your (petty and insignificant) crimes.

As you approach the gallows to be hanged simultaneously, you are unwittingly saved by the BBEG, who also reveals his plan to devour all mortal souls. Seeing as you do not like having your soul eaten, you all bond over your shared experience and go to save the world.

>> No.50060069

Calm down, Bethesda.

>> No.50060083


I saw a mudcrab the other day, nasty creatures.

>> No.50060088

>Let me monologue so you know I'm evil!

>> No.50060138

>GM tells us to make characters and gives us chargen rules
>Doesn't specify anything about the campaign
>Ignores requests for information
>Doesn't ask for backstories
>Replied to mine with "thx my dude"
It's time to play...
Great GM or shit GM!
Place your bets, place your bets!

>> No.50060143

Ravenloft campaign.

>> No.50060144

Ling chi is actually this guy.

That being said, having to wait till 15th level to just be able to draw a weapon is kinda dumb. Why not allow it as a draw equivalent action instead?

>> No.50060145


Shit DM! Shit DM! Give that dork a swirly!

>> No.50060168

Whoops, forgot picture.

>> No.50060170

At least someone got the joke. Thanks, anon.

>> No.50060180

So, like... What's even happening with that WotR campaign now? It's been open for weeks and we ain't heard nothing from the DM! What's up with that?

>> No.50060196

hahahahaha kill meee

>> No.50060217

How far do people roleplay that they had to add this item into the game? Who play's a female character and roleplays the red tide every month? Are there even rules? Roll constitution or be sick/in pain?

>> No.50060228

See >>50058016. The GM said the applications are still open and he's currently busy.

>> No.50060230


I have been planning to pilfer some Paizo ones and modify them slightly.

The PCs all find a playing card somewhere on their person or in their surroundings with a message promising them the location of a long-elusive foe that has hurt each of them some time in the past. They have no idea how this card appeared there.

RoW/Suicide Squad:

The PCs are criminals sentenced for execution. They may be innocent,small fry or scum deserving what they get - but as they are being led to their gallows on a particularly horrible day, a strange figure materializes near them and offers them a deal - swear to serve its master and live, or refuse and die. If they agree, they find out that their word IS indeed binding - though this one requires a bit of cooperation from the players and a DM who is not a complete asshole.

>> No.50060249

which doesn't make it any less annoying

>> No.50060250

Honestly? I kind of like fluff items like that.

>> No.50060262


They added it in because Paizo is a Progressive Company that loves to throw in epic references to modern medication so they can stay relevant.

It's literally liquid birth control, that's all that item is. It's so you can take one swallow of that tonic and do more than just swallow any time you wanna spend time with a man.

>> No.50060265 [SPOILER] 


What's wrong with "my dude"?

>> No.50060280


Aha! But then you discover Bachelor's Snuff, the male birth control, causes your fingernails to turn sickly yellow as a clear indicator you're taking birth control!

Take that, men! Now everyone knows when a man is being promiscuous, the slut!

>> No.50060285

heal check to know safe period
1d20 to see if preggers, dc x
1d2, boy or girl

>> No.50060290


Eh, you can say that's what it costs and takes to make if a player says their character wants that. I don't know how many times I've taken alchemical kindness on a character, and I don't remember any DM ever busting out the hangover rules.

>> No.50060296

What are you nattering on about now?

>> No.50060310

>1d20 to see if preggers, dc x

Anon please, everyone knows the proper way to determine pregnancy is roll a 1d100 and determine a random percentage in that 100 which, if you land in it, the girl's knocked up.

Humans have a 30% risk, so if you're giving her the pleasure of being cummed inside than you'd tell the player to roll a 1d100 and if it hits between 31 and 61, congratulations dat is how babby form.

Makes me wonder how Constitution factors into this, though.

>> No.50060332


I'm just having a bit of fun pointing out how Night Tea and Calistria's Kindness are basically risk-free, highly effective forms of birth control for women, but when a man wants something to shoot blanks it comes with gradual, and very visible, drawbacks.

>> No.50060343

>Aasimar LN Monk 1 (Scaled Fist) /Sorcerer (Draconic) 1/Eldritch Knight 1
Is it good or am I going to be killed instantly

>> No.50060379


>> No.50060391

thats not even possible you dumbass they errata'd that early entry shit

>> No.50060415

C'mon, no need to be rude! Given how awful much of their errata is I can't blame people not looking. Besides, the errata can be a pain in the butt to find on their website!

>> No.50060419

Which improved familiar have the best STR for the purpose of Beast shape (and other polymorph) spell?

Small Earth elemental?

>> No.50060470

Is there even a way to optimize an Artisan? I mean, it's basically "Crafter: The Class" and doesn't even have any archetypes!

Is it "grab Minor Creation and World Forger, you big dumbie?" Because it seems like that's the only "must have" ability in the class.

Well, that and "Efficient Crafting" and "Efficient Enchanting."

>> No.50060481

Never saw that, fugg.I just wanted to be a wuxia caster monk

>> No.50060514

Maybe port over the 3.5 Enlightened Fist?


>> No.50060645

What class or build have you had the most fun with anons?

>> No.50060670


I've had equal amounts of fun with the Artisan, the Warder and the Slayer classes.

Artisan's just so much gosh darn fun when you're in the right campaign for it, Warder's the absolute best in games that allow 3pp, and Slayer's in that sweet spot of effective martial and narrative power while retaining a healthy 6+int skill points.

>> No.50060692


Rogues, slayers, and assassins. I know they are not optimal but I have the most fun with them.

>> No.50060741

>You're all members of X organization
Be this a church, mercenary company, army, guild, ships crew, or otherwise this tends to help.

>You all witness a public hanging, during which the old woman being hanged shouts the name of the party members and several other members of the crowd, naming them "Moon Spawn" and "Scions of the Cause", you are taken away by the crown's secret police.

>> No.50060744

A Soulknife//Brutal Slayer on a quest to attain enlightenment and forge his own soul into a stronger shape, and return to lead the crusade to cleanse his homeland of the undead that were bleeding the people dry.

>> No.50060776


Beastmorph/Vivisectionist was a lot of fun-plenty of RIP AND TEAR on top of Moreauvian shenanigans. As was Construct Rider. Alchemist in general has some good stuff.

>> No.50060779

I haven't played many different classes, but Investigator has been really fun so far. Inspiration is excellent, and studied strike just feels right. Having gotten a few feat taxes lifted let me go for TWF, too, which is pretty swell.

Still patiently waiting for a chance to try magus, preferably with spheres.

>> No.50060797

Yeah, it is. We already have some info on the paizo discussion page about it.

>> No.50060809

Monster Tactician Inquisitor with Heroism domain. Be a party face with 6 CHA.

>> No.50060831

If we're starting the campaign at level 10 (and looking to go into 15-16 at the end). Is it even worth playing tier 3 class, or should I just go straight go tier 1.

>> No.50060836

play whatever the fuck you want, don't get too hung up on tiers.

>> No.50060892

Mechgineer Tinker.
My longest-lasting character.
We did a timeskip so the campaign would end at 20.
Highlights from the last battle include using Punch Into Orbit on a black dragon, unloading something like 40 Alchemist's Fire in one turn, and clobbering a Colossal-sized zombie with a guard tower.
Tinker is just so much fun I could talk about it for hours.

>> No.50060900

Why do you guys recommend POW so much?

>> No.50060923


>> No.50060939

because they like it probably

I don't really, mostly cause i feel the pow classes are mostly poorly designed.

>> No.50060948

Cuz they like it.

I don't, but each to their own.

>> No.50060949

Because I'd rather be flipping all over the map while cutting people in half than stand still and make full-attacks.
It's not rocket surgery, anon.

>> No.50060977

I'm legitimately wondering why, I don't know what it is and I want to know what it does and why its so good, not every question is bait you fucking moron
More poorly designed than Paizo classes?
Just about everyone here says its the best thing ever
It lets you do that?Is it like the Book Of Weeaboo Fightan Magic for PF?

>> No.50060980

So I would like to make a Sunbreaker for 3.5 Pathfinder. I know I need to be a warpriest, but I need some help with the spells and abilities. The DM said that we will start at level 5 and have 10k GP to spend on anything we need. Any ideas?

>> No.50060982

This. And PoW guys tend to get really into their builds and numbers so they talk loudly about their stuff often.

>> No.50061006

>Is it like the Book Of Weeaboo Fightan Magic for PF?
It is literally a port of that system anon. Did you not do any research on it before asking?

>> No.50061018

4e is fun

>> No.50061029

Wrong thread buddy but I'm glad you're enjoying tabletop RPGs.

>> No.50061031

No one want to be a useless waste of space (ie. martials) in the cooperation game.

>> No.50061035

Because to some people who've played the game for a while, it offers new options.

Personally, I like having stuff to do beyond just full-attack/vital strike, and I'll admit there's a part of me that likes the sorta animeish shit.

>> No.50061055

Didn't Forrest not want a link to the patreon in the OP?

>> No.50061058

Besides metamagic and the magical lineage trait, what other methods can I use to pump up spells like fireball and lightning bolt to ludicrous levels?

>> No.50061059

Because it's a system that doesn't require me to panic about saving shit for the potential boss fight, because it's flavorful and evocative, and because it's got more interesting effects than enemy numbers going down.

PoW1 is still an unbalanced and poorly edited shitfest, but at least it's an interesting one. PoW2 is better edited but still pretty overtuned in a lot of cases.

>> No.50061064

No, that's why I asked.
That's an opinion, and not for this thread
As long as it suits the game there is no reason not to

>> No.50061066

Did you catch JJ screaming in his thread that Wyrwoods have to age and die despite being constructs and that the idea that they wouldn't is stupid?

>> No.50061082

Right, don't link to the patreon, but the Avowed playtest is up. Or like, the semi-finished preview? Whatever.

>> No.50061088

It gives Martials something to do other than Full-Attack or fail to hit enemies CMD with a combat maneuver.

>> No.50061090

>JJ screaming

I would love me some JJ butthurt

>> No.50061121

>More poorly designed than Paizo classes?

Some of them, yeah.

>> No.50061122


Remember that time JJ was forced to admit some level of genetic modification is okay? He got pretty butthurt about that.

>> No.50061130

Oh, right. Anyone got a link to that? I want to read it.

>> No.50061131

It's buried in the Ask James Jacobs thread. Good luck.

>> No.50061149

Here you go, anon.

>> No.50061158

Things I do that would trigger /pfg/:
>I GM in the same setting my novel is set in
>I change some rules to make magic more like that of the novel
>I limit levels to 12, the most powerful mortals period being level 12
>I start at level 1 and make no special effort to make level 1 characters more robust
>I don't use outsiders/undead/monstrous humanoids/etc. at all, instead using different creature and inventing types to liken them to the novel setting
>I veto a lot of options because they "don't fit in setting" including several classes, but try and work with my players to fit in the setting while accomplishing their character concept
>I do not include any of the novel's main cast, but some other figures (such as members of the government, mythological ones, etc.) do appear in the campaign
>I make magic items extremely uncommon, and though I adjust CR to help with this it does to a degree leave martials behind, to amend this I partially use inherent bonuses
>I veto a good 1/4 of caster's spell lists as not fitting in setting (I tell them to run spells by me first because I can't go through all of them, but keep a short list of common spells that are banned and the sort of guidelines and themes they need to avoid and likely will be veto'd).

Likely at least a few people will reply to this angrily.

>> No.50061178

Here's your (you) since you're obviously fishing for attention.

>> No.50061180

I try to kill it all away, but I remember everything.

>> No.50061181

>Likely at least a few people will reply to this angrily.

Are you kitten me? That shit's bananas in all the right ways! E12? Uncommon magic items? Be my GM!

>> No.50061192

Eh, my DM does like a third of those. It works fine, he's willing to work with us to get our concepts to fit. His novel picked up an entire new race as a result of me wanting to play a psionic race that had cute girls in it.

>> No.50061194

here you go

>> No.50061199


>You can technically be Chaotic Good and eat intelligent creatures

What the fuck, JJ. Is he telling me I could kill a bunch of orcs and start eating their flesh and I'd still ping as Good?

>> No.50061208

Only chaotic good, if you're neutral or lawful you'd definitely fall.

>> No.50061213

Okay, but what if your culture has a strong tradition of ritual cannibalism? Wouldn't it be Lawful then?

Obviously, you're still denying them their proper burial, but when have adventurers EVER given their victims a proper burial.

>> No.50061219

What's wrong with that image?
Seems fine. I mostly agree.

>> No.50061221

Anyone have that grimoire of lost souls picture where you get raped by a panther and become a voluptuous panther lady seeking only to please male authority figures?

>> No.50061224

>I GM in the same setting my novel is set in
>I change some rules to make magic more like that of the novel
>I make magic items extremely uncommon, and though I adjust CR to help with this it does to a degree leave martials behind, to amend this I partially use inherent bonuses
>I do not include any of the novel's main cast, but some other figures (such as members of the government, mythological ones, etc.) do appear in the campaign

Seems fine, as long as the DM is open about it and the players are okay with it.

>I veto a good 1/4 of caster's spell lists as not fitting in setting (I tell them to run spells by me first because I can't go through all of them, but keep a short list of common spells that are banned and the sort of guidelines and themes they need to avoid and likely will be veto'd).
>I limit levels to 12, the most powerful mortals period being level 12

Former has some issues because it's removing player options, but many casters are iffy anyway. See above about DM/player mutual buy-in. Level stuff? Sure, as long as we don't run into bullshit like lots of NPCs being level 13+

>I start at level 1 and make no special effort to make level 1 characters more robust

>I don't use outsiders/undead/monstrous humanoids/etc. at all, instead using different creature and inventing types to liken them to the novel setting
I'm okay with that as long as we're aware of the mechanics.

>I veto a lot of options because they "don't fit in setting" including several classes, but try and work with my players to fit in the setting while accomplishing their character concept
That bugs me because most mechanics can be refluffed to fit within almost every setting. The DM and players should be actively collaborating on setting and character building though, so okay.

This mostly seems like a case study in "if the DM and players trust each other, great. If not, then you've got major problems already and these exacerbate them."

If you're trolling, try harder.

>> No.50061229

>Okay, but what if your culture has a strong tradition of ritual cannibalism? Wouldn't it be Lawful then?

Oh, you mean those RAVENOUS TRIBALS? The ones that don't got laws? How could they be lawful?

>> No.50061234

Here ya go

>> No.50061242

Thank you

>> No.50061250


>tfw you will never have a voluptuous panther lady waifu

>> No.50061252

It's James Jacobs.

>> No.50061256

That calls to mind an interesting historical story. A Persian king by the name of Darius had an avid interest in the various cultures within and adjacent to his empire. One day he invited over representatives from Greece, as well as people from a tribe near India, a tribe he'd conquered essentially on accident. In this tribe, when a loved one died you ate of their flesh to free their soul to move on to the afterlife. Obviously, Greeks had their own traditions.

Having both groups in his presence, Darius asked the Greeks what he could offer them to eat of the flesh of their dead fathers. Horrified, they answered that nothing could ever make them do that. Darius then turned to the tribesmen and asked what he might offer them to place coins on the eyes of their dead fathers and burn the corpses. Equally horrified, they refused outright. Darius turned to the Greeks and said, "Explain to me why your ways are more sacred than theirs."

's a fun story.

>> No.50061261

You don't know they don't have laws.


>> No.50061272


So far some ideas are to make a throwing hammer my sacred weapon. Make my hammer a +2 weapon and have spellstoring something like a fireball. Also have a belt that returns item when thrown. I would just like a bit more help with spells and other little things.

>> No.50061274

>That bugs me because most mechanics can be refluffed to fit within almost every setting. The DM and players should be actively collaborating on setting and character building though, so okay.
I allow them to make a case and refluff, and work with them on it. However some options simply do not translate, for instance most of the Monk's mechanics do not translate to anything possible in setting, not do the kineticist. Path of War's Zealot & Mystic's abilities do not translate even with refluffing (telepathy is one of the spells that is on the veto list) and parts of the mystic has issues.

I allow attempted refluffing, but some don't fit.

>Sure, as long as we don't run into bullshit like lots of NPCs being level 13+
Mortals don't make it past 12th level period. There are plenty of non-mortals who are.

>> No.50061279

>You don't know they don't have laws.

If they had laws they wouldn't be tribals, anon! That's why cannibalism is chaotic.

Wait wait, if Chaotic is Jacobs favorite alignment, does that mean he's a fan of "sensible" cannibalism?

>> No.50061285


Sorry, I didn't play Destiny.

>> No.50061294

>Blood of Beast as a nagaji section
>Doesn't have a lizardfolk section

>> No.50061306


>Mortals don't make it past 12th level period. There are plenty of non-mortals who are.

And presumably, you're doing something like 4e's Epic Destinies to allow people to transcend that limit if the game runs long enough?

>I allow them to make a case and refluff, and work with them on it. However some options simply do not translate, for instance most of the Monk's mechanics do not translate to anything possible in setting, not do the kineticist. Path of War's Zealot & Mystic's abilities do not translate even with refluffing (telepathy is one of the spells that is on the veto list) and parts of the mystic has issues.

I feel like... Honestly, as someone who works very actively to refluff when needed, to fit various settings, you might not be trying hard enough. Even in settings with hard-coded rules of magic, there are /always/ exceptions. Even if you need to go with "they're a unique one-off"/"quirk of fate"/"mad magicians"/etc, it's still viable.

>> No.50061327


I feel your pain, sad anime girl. I too yearn for nothing more than to play a cool-blooded Lizardfolk warrior.

>> No.50061336

JJ is a fan of eating all non-SJWs.

>> No.50061349


Not with that attitude, anon!

>> No.50061354

The difference of course being that Nagaji are an actual playable race and Lizardfolk are just monsters.

>> No.50061363

That guy probably sleeps smuggly snuggly at night.

>> No.50061365

>The difference of course being that Nagaji are an actual playable race and Lizardfolk are just monsters.

You think this is funny, anon? Big laughter? Very smile? Lizardfolk are a playable race, they're right there in the pfsrd, they're very good at being big tough fighter-guys!

>> No.50061371

Nagaji are scrub dragon people while lizardfolk are heroic badasses. Lizardfolk even got a breakdown in the ARG, I demand my Lizardfolk Justice.

>> No.50061390


Captain Falcon! But... I don't know where to begin! How do I start down the path of big fat cat tats?

>> No.50061414

The Gnolls from Digger manage it well.
Further, nearly all tribes of any kind have their own system of traditions, cultural taboos, hierarchies, societal/tribal roles, oaths, inter-tribal societies, and governance. Just because they don't have a written constitution doesn't mean they don't have laws or can't be lawful, otherwise neither Iroquois Confederacy, Algonquin Slave Market, nor Cherokee Nation would have ever existed.

>> No.50061423


The same way you start down any other path worth taking!

>> No.50061442


I'll do my best! Thanks, Captain!

>> No.50061472

>while lizardfolk are heroic badasses

It's a shame you never actually run into DMs who let you play Lizardfolk, otherwise I'd jump on the chance to play one in a heartbeat.

>> No.50061535

>mfw the new Ooze Transformation package from Shapeshifter's Handbook let's you turn into a slime girl

>> No.50061543

It doesn't say Calistria's Kindness only works on women.

>> No.50061547

So does April Augmented by DSP. It even allows vore.

>> No.50061556


It kind of does with the wording used, "dramatically reduces the chance of conception" sounds more like the one drinking it is the one at risk of conceiving.

>> No.50061569


You don't? Most GMs I've met like mixing up at least one especially "monstrous" race into the general populace of their settings. More often than not, it's the lizards.

>> No.50061572


_ _____ ____ ____ _____ ____!

>> No.50061580

Someone's calling out Auguns on that CoC champion they put out.


>> No.50061582

You have a copy?

>> No.50061591

>You don't?

Nope! I've been playing this song and dance for a long time and I've never ever ran into a DM that let me play a lizard-bro!

It's actually quite sad, now that I think about it! +2 Strength +2 Con and +2 Natural Armor, what's not to love?

>> No.50061599

>You will never get to play a slime girl in a normal game
Why live?

>> No.50061608


What's stopping you? All you've got to do is downplay the obvious amazing and extremely lewd fetishistic aspects of the character.

>> No.50061628

and of course the version for men's contraception turns your teeth all gold colored and automatically makes people mark you as cheating.

>> No.50061635

For me it's trolls and hags as slave races.

>> No.50061642

Well the latter doesn't follow, and I'm sure it was actually made by a different person. I don't think comparing two items made by two different people and shouting "men are bad!" is the way to go.

>> No.50061648


Clearly what Paizo is telling us is that we might as well not use birth control at all, just have fun and if something happens than something happens.

>> No.50061664

Shapeshifter's also has swallow options. Plus this means any Sphere Caster would potentially pull it off, as well as anyone Willi g to sink feats into the system.

Like say a nervous tiefling slime girl sphere paladin who literally melts in to goo when she gets nervous when you suggest the two if you hold hands

>> No.50061673

Bets on how long until they censor it?

>> No.50061674

Someone needs to ask about Grippli. Frogmen need lovin too.

>> No.50061693

>Like say a nervous tiefling slime girl sphere paladin who literally melts in to goo when she gets nervous when you suggest the two if you hold hands

Dude that's cute.

>> No.50061696

I would rather people play a different class instead of changing the setting rules. "Quicks of destiny" aren't really a thing. Direct intervention of the divine is not an encouraged character concept for someone who wants a power that is a hard no. Long range teleportation and summoning are others.

>> No.50061710

>It's one of those people who signs their name at the end of a post despite their post having their name on it already

Why do people do this

>> No.50061718

Because it makes me sounds more important


>> No.50061723


There's a special place in digital hell for those kinds of people.

>t. Anon

>> No.50061726


Well, the official reply seems to be "ask yourself if Paizo would print that". Also, "fuck off".

>> No.50061732

I mean, the answer is... Yes, they would. Look at the fucking hyena mask.

>> No.50061735

I'm like at least 70% certain that's not an official paizo employee.

>> No.50061737

Well I dunno.

They also printed the pregnancy rapemonster that is Drakainia and EVERYTHING EVER to do with Lamashtu.

>> No.50061738

I gotta wonder how the war between them went after that though. People tend not to take the realization that they have exactly as much backing their religion as the other guy all that well.

and unless they're 8 and reading up on gods in AD&D, they might be a little more violently inclined than "waitaminute... isn't this exactly as much real?"

>> No.50061745


Ah. My mistake, then. The UNOFFICIAL reply is "ask yourself etc etc" and "fuck off".

>> No.50061747


You shut your mouth! The Mask of the Demon Mother is one of the greatest wondrous items in Pathfinder.

How else am I supposed to get fucked by a horse and get pregnant with it's fiendish horse-head baby?

>> No.50061754

Okay, but I don't even think that's an unofficial paizo reply. That's just a forum poster.

>> No.50061756

In that they are entirely combat focused classes with little to make them good out of combat, yes, they're just too specialized and i think thats poor design.

>> No.50061817

Darn, they removed the quoted link from it.

>> No.50061835

>Dude that's cute.
You know what else is cute?

>> No.50061858

i wish i was cute

More than that i wish i was in a game

>> No.50061865



>> No.50061890

Someone should really point out the Mask and the other rape-tastic shit Paizo publishes constantly.

>> No.50061915


The difference is Paizo never tries to suggest that stuff is anything but evil, heck the Mask's bestiality aspects can only be activated by a worshiper of Lamashtu, who are at their best creepy chaotic neutral fertility cults.

>> No.50061951

They still PUBLISHED it.

Even if Anjiarararara is evil, it's still 'get raped by a pantherman and become a furry bimbo who lusts for male authority figures'

>> No.50061982


>> No.50062013


Wasn't Grimoire published by Radiance House, not Paizo?

>> No.50062021

>They still PUBLISHED it.

So? The difference between Anjiarara and Lamashtu is the former's presented in a way that divorces the action from it's monstrous origin, while the latter reinforces the mask is evil and using it is evil.

>> No.50062037

Both blood of furries and grimoire of lost souls are written by the same person.

>> No.50062044

Yeah but the point I'm making is that something being evil doesn't excuse the fact that it's still turbocreepy. Paizo has published some turbocreepy shit, so when you ask me 'would paizo publish something like that' Rather than respond with a no, I pause and think 'Well...'

>> No.50062054


I'm not cute! I'm just anon!

It's a shame we never see particularly cute characters for /pfg/ recruiting campaigns, the only one I recall was cute at all is the chesty Aasimar monk for WotR, and she wasn't even posted!

>> No.50062099

Does anyone have a link to the imgur of all the Grimoire of Lost Souls and Blood of the Beast stuff with all the cringe? Or the "Childhood Adventures" book about dunking foxes in piss?

>> No.50062114


>> No.50062121


>> No.50062138


It's odd how you can immediately tell if an anthro character is furry or not if they've got a head of hair or not.

Why do they always have hairdos? Why?

>> No.50062145

The full album, if we have it.

>> No.50062230


Someone wants them anthropomorphized further, and incongruous hair growth does the trick, I guess.

>> No.50062276

At least the piss bottled doesn't have a mop on their head.

>> No.50062285

i dunno, makes them more anthro-y

>> No.50062840

>Book of vile darkness is worse than rape panther turning you into a woman who has to be dominated by the male penis.

>> No.50062849

Dude, who said that?

>> No.50062864


>> No.50062937

I don't know what's worse, having fun shitty conversations about cute and lewd or complaining about "official" examples of cute or lewd.

>> No.50063009

Any sign yet of Curse of the Crimson Throne?

>> No.50063019


If they're fun conversations, are they really all that bad?

>> No.50063033


No, I guess not!

>> No.50063064

Quick question about the slayer archetypes.

Does the stygian slayer and executioner archetype stack? I think no, since one replaces what the other alters, but another player insists that they do.

>> No.50063213


They don't stack, Stygian Slayer removes the 10th level talent and the Executioner expects you to take the 10th level talent.

>> No.50063291

fuckin knew it, except he says that raw they do stack because it only alters your talent, not replaces it, RAI though its so fucking clear what they mean.

>> No.50063309

>Panther rape
>Child rape
>Foxes being dunked in piss
>Age-regression fetishes

>> No.50063324


No! Don't want!

>> No.50063354

Alright fellas. I want to give my players at-will use items, or something like that. I realize how powerful that may be, and I'm prepared to deal with the consequences. I want these artifacts to affect the way they play their characters. Not so much that they rely on them, but to the point where they use them liberally. Only problem is, I'm having trouble coming up with stuff.

The party is currently the party face (Eyebiter Mesmerist), who constantly feels useless in combat, the bruiser (Serpent-Fire Adept Monk), who just sits on his phone when they're in social situations, and mostly just plays bodyguard, and a psychic (Psychic Duelist), and sorta runs support for the other two when they're doing their jobs.

I gave the face a sipping-jacket a while back since he kept nearly dying in combat, but I don't think he even remembers he has it, and now just stays behind the monk.
I was thinking about giving the monk some sort of Rock of Detect Alignment so he has something to do in social situations, but that's as far as I got.

>> No.50063381


>> No.50063453


The mental gymnastics these people go through to say "nothing's wrong with this" makes me think arguing with them is more trouble than it's worth. Especially when a month later they're saying "something's wrong with this" at something totally innocuous.

>> No.50063455

Anyone have a copy of that horrifying Kitsune baby picture from Childhood adventures? It's just...arg.

>> No.50063475

Like, I'm totes an SJW, and yeah the stuff is off-topic and should be in it's own thread/reported to paizo. But, is it so hard to say "Dude, rape is gross and doesn't belong in the vast majority of games (or any where it's going to be used inappropriately)"

>> No.50063505

>tfw Cleaner and Executioner don't stack
>tfw I can't play the ultimate urban thug

But why tho, Slayer (Executioner/Cleaner) seems like the ULTIMATE gang hitman.

>> No.50063527


Sounds like a union thing. Killers aren't allowed to clean, cleaners aren't allowed to kill.

>> No.50063574


Well that just frosts my flakes! At the very least I can play an Executioner, but Cleaner just looks so slick for my concept.

>> No.50063623

> A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature

> replace or alter

Tell him to learn the RAW before trying to BS.

>> No.50063658

This is exactly how brainwashed people speak. Unending excuses, dogmatic devotion, lying, rationalizing, dodging, hiding, victimization claims, offensive silencing action, subject shifting, and an ultimate refusal to acknowledge the slightest possibility of valid criticism.

I thank my good fortune every day that I have a four players who may not be perfect but can reign themselves in and play their parts for our games.

>> No.50063816

Hey /pfg/!

I've been gone for a while, but I finally got into a game where 3pp stuff was allowed (a gestalt game no less) and I noticed Path of War Expanded was out.

Though I did notice Fool's Errand was missing and so was anything about it in the discussion threads (even retroactively)

What's the deal with that? Too difficult to balance?

>> No.50063903

Fool's Errand's playtest started after Path of War: Expanded was released; FE is part of the Divergent Paths line, which also includes the Roil Dancer Kineticist (released) and the Medic (upcoming).

Its playtest ended a couple months ago (coinciding with me taking an extended leave of absence from DSP as a result of some personal stuff; we ran it up until then since we were comfortable with its balance point), and it'll be released when it's layout-ready and put into the Patreon queue.

The google doc for it still exists, and can be found here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487641-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Fool-s-Errand

>> No.50063907

Don't know if it technically counts, but me and another player in our group made a duo for the Kingmaker campaign our GM is running.

We're a Bladebound Magus and her Eldritch Archer Magus maid.

>> No.50063946

Ahh, you're the best, Forrest.

Really looking forward to introducing DSP to another player group.

>> No.50063971

Make sure you focus more on being awesome and not on being a machine of unbalanced destruction!

PoW Errata coming soon™

>> No.50063988

>PoW Errata coming soon™
Do we have any idea of what will be in that?

>> No.50063991


>> No.50064021

The whole party is intentionally pretty broken. The GM enjoys powerful parties, he says it gives him more license with the threats instead of worrying about whether the challenges will break us.

>> No.50064044

A handful of nerfs, a lot of making RAW broken features actually work as intended, maybe even one or two small new things.

Also, there will be an errata playtest.

>> No.50064062


>> No.50064090


Speaking of dick ass thieves, what is the best way to build a thief? Archaeologist bard? Investigator?

>> No.50064109

Archaeologists are interesting because they're not just "I steal stuff", they're "Stealing stuff is something I happen to do. It's a means to my ends that comes up often enough I've gotten pretty good at it."

>> No.50064119

How's everyone doing with their homebrews, /pfg/?

I got several homebrews lined up waiting for your criticism and feedback right here.

A Divine Elemental Barbarian - He can throw spells and swing swords like a force of nature. One of his archetypes turns him into a pokemon trainer instead.

Based on the warlock class, He can suck the essence out of an enemy and use those essences to boost himself or his allies. His archetypes turn him either to a dedicated healer or dedicated crowd controller.

The Mechanist is a variation of the alchemist. He trades away alchemy for engineering, and can invent stuff like powered suits, jet packs, nanomachines, etc and then upgrade them to be even better.

The Sigilist is based on the Onmyouji/Taoism, a divine caster who can empower his spells by using sigils as spell components. He can also be a decent combatant using his Talismans and Shikigami.

>> No.50064130

Query, maybe I'm misremembering it, or it was a change from a previous version, but is there any synergy between grab/constrict and Fool's Errand?

That may simply be me remembering grasp.

>> No.50064133


True but I just dont want to be roped into Indiana Jones! Slayer is more assassination and less thiefy

>> No.50064143

>How's everyone doing with their homebrews, /pfg/?

Just working on a playable half-ghost race.

pic unrelated, just incredibly funny and somewhat significant to our group's last session.

>> No.50064153

Being a dick-ass thief isn't a matter of build.

It's a way of life.

Although you can make a pretty alright thief with a Fighter. With a combination of a few things in Weapon Master's, you can steal things off people with thrown knives, and have the knives bounce back to you with the thing you just stole, and with Greater Steal they still don't even notice.

>> No.50064157

I bet they didn't expect that kind of punishment from the penal system

>> No.50064159

Eldritch Scoundrel.
If you're gonna be a thief in a fantasy setting, you may as well have your own magical tricks up your own sleeves.

>> No.50064162

You disgust me.

>> No.50064169

How are you even supposed to build an Eldritch Scoundrel? It feels like everything is geared towards fucking them over.
>no casting in armor
>no discounts on spell-levels and instead just use the normal wizard list up to 6th
>weaker Sneak Attack

>> No.50064176

I recall someone saying something about how you literally got a better Eldritch Scoundrel just multiclassing rogue and wizard.

Not sure if it's true though, I never bothered to check.

>> No.50064185

I meant as a general character type rather than the archetype. An archaeology flavored Investigator is best. Shove your Int way up there and surpass the average rogue or ninja in skills. Know everything. Be prepared for everything. Tell your big dumb fighter how to fight everything. Maybe give him an Infusion extract of exactly what he needs for the encounter. Sneak around back and pocket the Cursed Amulet of Rebadul Sensmen while he wrestles the sphinx. Okay now I'm just talking about characters I want to play.

>> No.50064186

You could opt for the Questioner Investigator, which is a much better magical rogue than the rogue.

Just grab some rogue talents and inspirations and you'll be the party face, crafter and skill monkey.

>> No.50064193

It isn't at all unfortunately.

This is the correct answer.

>> No.50064206

I can say it's not true easily enough, if for no other reason than because your skill points are better and you aren't sacrificing caster levels along the way

One option is actually Aether kineticist.

Before someone shouts me down, think about it; invisibility, telekinesis to lift things off people or off the ground, and a fair amount of battlefield control when you get into actual combat. It's not amazing at the job - a wizard with greater invisibility will almost always be better - but it can work quite well.

>> No.50064209

This. Ask your DM if he'll allow stacking the Empiricist and Questioner (Paizo made the stupid mistake of making them clash only because of Poison Lore, which is inconsequential)

Best way to roll an Investigator. You either end up as Magic Sherlock Holmes, Adam Warlock or John Constantine.

You don't rely a lot on magic - you use it to make your already incredibly high bluff check bullshits more believable.

>> No.50064230

Really, Empiricist should have just been part of the base class.

>> No.50064255

Don't be fooled by Constantine's Trenchcoat costume. It doesn't mean he's an investigator, John Constantine is actually more in line as an occultist. All his magic is from all the implements he's stored under his extradimensional jacket.

>> No.50064281

Grasp (Now Lock) was changed a lot. There used to be synergy but after it turned out it led to lots of things being way too good, it got taken out.

>> No.50064286

On the subject of a magic rogue, once I did a rogue/magus build. It wasn't as much of a skill monkey, although I was still the best in the party. The best part was comboing Invisibility, Sneak Attack, and Spellstrike.

But has anyone tried the Arcane Trickster prestige class? I wanted to a while back, but never got around to it.

>> No.50064295

Thanks anons. You have given me a lot more than just unchained rogue to work with.

>> No.50064301

Aether has the best utility of all the 1pp kineticist elements, but the damage is shit.
3pp helps this, but at that point you might as well go Hidden Blade Rogue.

>> No.50064303

I found this, and it was adorable, and I wanted to share. Take it!

>> No.50064569

Its leg protection is woeful and exposes key arteries.

In addition, the neck is so thin that even if that helmet blocks the strike, it may fracture the vertebrae from sheer impact.

>> No.50064610

Did depressedhomevrewer kick the bucket?

>> No.50064620

Yes. Don't trust any ghosts you see.

>> No.50064656

you can see he joined the lewd RotRL waiting room

>> No.50064665

>says he's gonn GM shit
>keeps pushing it back because health
>joins other game
What a piece of shit

>> No.50064687

The paizo thread ended locked on a "you're evil thought police for calling me a degenerate for wanting bestial rape and other such fetishes in my RPG".

But they *DID* say this:
>This thread really isn't the appropriate place to discuss problems with a third-party product. It sounds like the product under discussion may violate the PF compatibility license--if you believe that it does, please email Customer Service, and they'll get the email to the right people to review it.

And apparently, adult materials ARE one of the things there's a rule against; supposedly this:
>You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as "adult content," offensive, or inappropriate for minors.

So, I suggest someone grab up them screenshots.

>> No.50064705

Oh yeah, someone in the IRC grabbed them, and no posts have been deleted yet. Accounts HAVE been banned, though.

>> No.50064730


>> No.50064734

I meant more screencaps of the offending material, for those supposed emails they will supposedly read.

You know, the stuff about getting turned into panthers and fucked when you use your powers and all the other creepy furry rape ones.

>> No.50064736

a man after my own heart.

>> No.50064764

Oh, right yes. That would be good.

>> No.50064772

I'd like these too, I might send an email as well because legitimizing this shit in the game invites even more stuff to the table I don't want to deal with.

>> No.50064801

If the errata nerfing was for stuff that hasn't come out yet, fool's errand would be at the top of the list of things that need it.

It's basically "I need to win against initiators AND outdamage and utility them too". Despite the fluff that it's against mages. Plus everything it does is EX, without even the more normal abilities in things in many other disciplines - even when it's an identical or weaker ability/effect - being allowed to be anything but SU.

High damage, high AoE, high utility and hard counters to initiators all in one package.

>> No.50064813

everything needs nerfed

because the classes all need to be less absurdly combat focused.

>> No.50064815

I'd toss an email in too but I'll need the pictures to prove it.

>> No.50064843

>Despite the fluff that it's against mages.

Why does everyone keep saying that? None of the FE fluff has anything to do with fighting mages. The fluff talks about martial artists looking at mages who succeeded with buff spells and going "we can do that too".

>> No.50064852

"Hey, you guys spend all your time marginalizing martials, well if I tried, I could marginalize all martials too!"

"Yeah right."

"You'll see... you'll ALL SEE."

>> No.50064855


These two threads.

>I need to win against initiators
Sure, okay

>And outdamage
Nah, the damage kings still win

>And utility
Do you mean "get murdered by full attacks because my only debuff doesn't actually do anything but make them focus me"?

>Ex/Su being anything but fluff about power source
You've lost me

>> No.50064865

I don't really see how FE marginalizes all martials, or even marginalizes all initiators. It's pretty much written with an anti-initiator subtheme, no? That's what it's good at, but it fails against lots of things and its tank stuff is situational or build-around at best.

>> No.50064870

It's anti-initiator, still works against mages, and by dint of being an initiator dances the can-can over other martials.

>> No.50064882

So basically "it's balanced in PoW but broken in normal games" like the rest of PoW's 'balanced' options? I agree there.

I don't think it needs nerfing any more than the whole subsystem does, which DSP would never do.

>> No.50064883

It is actually about more than power source.

As something rises up the ranks, from Ex, to Su, to Sp, to actual spells, it has more ways it can be stopped.

>> No.50064915

Su abilities only get stopped by AMFs, which are bullshit no one should be using (and something a martial will be useless in anyway, initiator or not, since they rely on magic items for stats). Ex and Su are functionally identical, as a result.

>> No.50064944

Why are you expecting something that's supposed to be (strong) T3 to fall in line with PF martials?

>> No.50064960

PoW is strong compared to 1pp martials yes, but it's also strong compared to the standard expectations of power. 1pp martials are irrelevant in this case, because for PoW to not crack things that are supposed to be decent challenges in half with a single flex of their buttocks, those challenges need to have PoW too.

>> No.50064982

Jusy play the qiqong monk?

>> No.50065006

That's true of a shitload of non-PoW stuff in PF and it was also true of almost everything in 3.5. CR is borderline useless against any party that is even remotely removed from the expectation of an unoptimized 2H Fighter/blaster Wizard/healbot Cleric/skillmonkey Rogue party and is often worse than having no guidelines at all.

>> No.50065009

PoW is basically Tier 2 and a half. It's got too much numbers and the classes do too much combat stuff/too little utility stuff (except the Mystic, which would be good if it was less overpowered).

DSP's stuck with their system as it is though, and we have to suck it up and play with it or ignore it. My group uses it but I pine for the days of Tome of Battle and saner-balanced initiators.

>> No.50065048

>Often worse

Uh, no.

Very loose guidelines are better than no guidelines.

And just because certain other things already in the system are too powerful doesn't mean it's okay to do it more.

>> No.50065060

PoW does have a lot of balance issues in that they eclipse tier 3 characters and below in combat while not bringing much (if anything) to the table out of combat. This causes a schism where 1pp characters stick their thumbs up their metaphorical asses in combat and PoW characters do the same out of combat. It encourages tier 3 characters to focus onto on utility to carve out a niche and thus widen the gap.

That and tier 3 characters have a very hard time defending themselves compared to a PoW character because of how counters are designed. Something that might kill a PoW character will probably kill a tier 3 character.

Building encounters around these facts become difficult. Some people will argue that "position" (sticking the bard in the back) is what matters here. Those people do not consider the numerous ways to break positioning (dimensional agility and the like 1pp, numerous charge strikes and teleportation boosts in PoW), or attacks from multiple sides, or surprise attacks.

3rd tier characters in 1pp are entirely outshonein combat to a silly degree by PoW characters, and that's at normal optimization. At high optimization PoW characters have higher ceilings than that of toer 3 1pp characters.

>> No.50065063

>My group uses it but I pine for the days of Tome of Battle and saner-balanced initiators.
You mean the one with much improved feat support over PoW, multiple PrCs that make anything in PoW look tame, and where the Warblade/Swordsage had nearly as much instagib potential as PoW?

>> No.50065073

I heard almost the exact same thing about ToB. It wasn't convincing then and it's not now.

>> No.50065075

its especially bad for the damage t3 like magus

>> No.50065080

more i just feel that the classes are poorly designed because of their focus on combat entirely and little out of combat utility

its lame and dumb

>> No.50065090

Why not? I think I raise some fair points.

Yes, here it becomes even more true.

Bards have decent utility lists. Magus and Inquisitors have a much harder time. Warpriests are shafted as well to a degree. Then casting focuses 4 level casters as well (that one paladin archetype).

>> No.50065096

PoW offers a decent amount of utility as long as you don't pile all in to the damage-only disciplines: which are things that I think there should be less of.

As for the combat disparity... yeah, I would say that as much as some anons pretend it doesn't exist when everyone optimises properly, it really does.
At the end of the day though, as a GM, I embrace it, because the idea that you have a large range of interesting and effective options every turn of combat as a martial is a -good- thing and more fun and satisfying to play.
Initiators can be built to a sane powerlevel: yes, this relies on trust, but when it happens it just blows 1pp martial combat out of the water in enjoyment.

To counteract the disparity I go the other way, really: instead of nerfing initiators I give all non-initiators the martial training line for free.

>> No.50065113

Magus can get by just fine if they're not focusing solely on damage. It's very easy for them to start shitting out debuffs that can't be ignored/SoLs. The problem with the Inquisitor and the Warpriest is that they both have ramp-up time, which is already a shitty problem to have when combat is over as quickly as it is in 3.PF.

>> No.50065123

Magus' ability to debuff is way behind that of initiators with even a passing investment into one of the debuff disciplines.

>> No.50065129

>good at debuffing

>> No.50065144

>Martial training for free

The issue with that is if someone doesn't want to do initiating.

>Not damage


>> No.50065148

Swordsage really couldn't instagib much as well as a warlord or even a stalker with BB/Fury. Warblade maybe, if you were using a high-level full attack, but ToB strikes were overall much weaker. As were stances and boosts.

ToB had much better feat support, yeah (but then, 3.5 in general did), and its PrCs... Well, can't agree there. Even the Ruby Knight Vindicator didn't work how most people thought it did, and the Jade Phoenix Mage tended to just be decent, not ridiculous.

>> No.50065175

Pathfinder has always been a 'keep up or get left behind' system.
Even before PoW, if you were someone who didn't want some form of casting, and you just wanted to be a guy who hit things hard, you were going to have a bad time unless you had a lot of expertise in what you were doing.

tl;dr my belief is that PoW is not a system that can exist alongside the normal expectations of the game, but for the most part its own expectations are an improvement over the default ones and I'd support supplanting them.
I don't think everything it did is flawless, but it's a step in the right direction.

>> No.50065194

But if everything is being made for the power level that PoW has surpassed, then progress isn't made at all. It's not a step in the right direction unless you only play the classes ever made by one company, using one subsystem.

Even if PoW is a step in the right direction in and of itself, it doesn't mean future content will be built to the same level of power. The power expectations have been set already, and PoW's not going to change where people design their material for power-wise.

>> No.50065197

It essentially blows most characters out of the water at high optimization. Tier 1 characters included for everything that isn't group battlefield control. Except when the tier 1 caster abuses a few casting styles (such as optimized summoning) or emploits the system (blood money).

>> No.50065210

This. Even if you look at what DSP's authors themselves are doing, they don't compare at all to the combat power of PoW.

Forrest's Spellburst Savant (the new version) and Avowed? They can be Strikers but their damage is just okayish as far as my quick and dirty math says. The Occult Psionics stuff is the same.

DSP is basically publishing two games, "Path of War" and "Pathfinder 3pp," and pretending they're the same one. I wish they'd made the former as part of the latter, but they just don't seem to get it.

>> No.50065212

Only directly being able to prevent the effect - and even then only if there's no restrictions like "when it's from a spell" can prevent an EX thing. For example, "you can't fly for 4 rounds after being hit" would prevent flight whether EX or SP.

SU generally stops working outright within a dead/antimagic zone. The end. SU can be negated in various ways, though generally a Dispel won't work on it. Nevertheless, it does open itself up to a few counters,etc as well from things like elemental flux. It is simply less good than EX, in other words, in all except ONE aspect (and a damn situational one): EX flight shuts down in outer space.

SP adds Spell Resistance to the mix. Not only do the things that stop the above work against SP, but now you also - like with casting - provoke AoOs when using an SP ability.

Finally you get actual spells, with components, materials, foci, interrupts, and so on and so forth.

>> No.50065218

Not even 2h, the expectation is sword&board with power-attack and maybe TWFing that shield without the feat chain.

>> No.50065230

>SU generally stops working outright within a dead/antimagic zone.

The point of contention here is about whether this is relevant. "Su abilities can be stopped by two things: a high-level spell that shuts down everything else you're doing too, even if you have Ex stuff, and your DM being an asshole" is not a real weakness.

>> No.50065265

>Even the Ruby Knight Vindicator didn't work how most people thought it did
On the contrary, it worked exactly the way everyone thought it did. Being able to turn TU uses into swift actions on a 1 for 1 basis and having a class feature to recover a maneuver for both of those resources is stupid as fuck when WRT is in the same book, let alone any of the cheese you can get up to from other books because they're only barely behind a full caster. JPM is mediocre because it's a gish that loses a fair amount of spell levels while not making up for it with class features, which is absolutely not the case for RKV.

Then there's Eternal Blade, which has hands down the best martial capstone in the entire game, White Raven Hammer's no save stun, Diamond Mind's guaranteed 'crits' making 3.5 PA hilarious and the double full attack maneuver, several Tiger Claw maneuvers, Lightning Mace or Boomerang Daze + Adaptive cheese, Discipline weapons...

>> No.50065266

They *ARE* T3.
At full optimization PoW characters are pretty much on par with other heavy damage dealers, except less of a one trick pony because they'll at the very least have a few utilities and more than 2+int fucking skills.

The BIG difference is the floor, not the ceiling, and this drives a lot of people up the wall. The optimization floor of PoW classes is high. It actually lets the character play like a T3 from the start, even if you're not entirely sure you know what you're doing as a player.

THIS IS FUCKING HUGE. A Magus doesn't do that. A Barbarian is fucking shit until you know the proper 2h infinite rage combos and rage-basketweaving and all that. But you grab a Warder or even a Mystic, and right from level 1, you're useful, AND you hit hard like anything else built to hit hard (in fact at level 1, it is a little too much as we all recall from the errata incoming to certain disciplines).

This difference can be insurmountable to some players; a non-caster character coming from the CRB has to get some serious system-mastery in to pick the right options to actually be good at what he does. The PoW classes have all that "FUCK YOU, YOU SUCK AND YOU DESERVE TO SUCK UNTIL YOU'VE MASTERED DECKBUILDING AND PUT ENOUGH MONEY INTO THE EXPANSIONS TOO" ... missing from them.

They're not overpowered when standing next to what all the other classes they supposedly overtake promise their reader and are supposed to be.

It's just that unlike the CRB Monk, pre-unchained rogue, Core-only fighter, sword and board, final destination, they don't purposefully suck giant salty donkey balls.

>> No.50065267

By step in the right direction, I mean in terms of design principles: the idea that you can do cool stuff without having to invest three feats into it, have meaningful decisions to make in battle, and have a lot of customisation and choice in character building.
I see these philosophies spreading to their newer work, from psionics augmented to bloodforge 2, and to Forrestfire stuff as well. And that in itself is a good precedent to set.

>Tier 1 characters included for everything that isn't group battlefield control.
This shows you've either never seen a caster played to decent potential, or you think everything can be solved by murderhoboing.
Smart spell selection still fucks up initiators to no end.

>> No.50065272

What the hell does a sunbreaker do?

I played a *very* tiny bit of destiny and I know that they're a titan subclass, and titans are largely the "tank" class... and something something about creating solar hammers and flinging fucking mjolnir at people.

Is it not possible to do what you might want as a soulknife? Particularly Soulknife -> Aegis -> Metaforge of some sort? Maybe pick up mind shield and shape your mind blade like a hammer. You could go war-soul archetype even and use solar wind attacks for throwing.

Solar wind mentality is a great fluffy blade talent for what you want to do.

>> No.50065275


This is the exact. same. fucking. bullshit. that ToB got.

>> No.50065277

End of midlevel. it's a 6th. and the mage can actually put it to very good use, because plenty of spells CAN work within it thanks to how things do or don't get suppressed.

It also means that many areas in alkenstar or numeria are "this type of adventurer simply cannot go there". Even though he's a martial, even though the mage may actually have an easier time there too.

>> No.50065285


In fact I'd made a very similar argument all those years ago, because it was the same fucking shit all over again.

>> No.50065298

Ruby Knight Vindicator's TU -> Swift ability was a standard action to activate. It could be used to swap stances and use a boost at the same time, but it was pretty underwhelming otherwise.

Eternal Blade had a good capstone, yeah, but it wasn't relevant for most of the game. Diamond Mind was good but STILL lower damage than zenith strike. Time Stands Still was a capstone as well.

Lightning Maces was TO and thus mostly irrelevant, Aptitude weapons were definitely a huge problem though, I agree. Discipline weapons, on the other hand, were fine. Good, but fine. One of the small pile of actually useful weapon abilities.

The big difference is the floor, yes, but here in /pfg/ we mostly talk about the ceilings, which PoW stuff is just... Stronger than it should be with. PoW was a step in the right direction for having higher floors, but the devs for it outright said that they started with their floor at "optimized barbarian."

PoW's problem is that they installed the numbers floor too high. Other recent DSP stuff is better about it.

I see. I agree there, a higher floor (lack of trap options, easy access to cool stuff, classes that don't require system mastery to build) is good. PoW did it wrong though.

I wish that DSP would just burn PoW to the ground and rewrite it to be not so shitty about math, combat power, and lack of real utility (REAL noncaster utility, like how the vigilante's social talents give narrative power, not enforced taking of mental stats + movement modes).

They never will because of sunk costs, but a man can dream.

>> No.50065299


>> No.50065306

>It also means that many areas in alkenstar or numeria are "this type of adventurer simply cannot go there".

Yes, because using these areas means you're a shit DM using a shit setting conceit that exists only to say "fuck you for playing something with options."

AMFs are cancer at best, and an excuse used by shit DMs at worst.

>> No.50065311

Movement modes are actually a pretty big one due to the WBL issue, but there's a bit more than that if you look.

Notably, you can get stuff like dispelling, healing, stealth and detect-evil. It's certainly no full caster, in fact most characters won't even match a partial caster's utility due to their selections, but it *is* a big step up from "is fighter"

>> No.50065320

And so are many other fucking parts of the game, but you gotta remember that they exist, and their use and/or potential must be taken into consideration.

>> No.50065321

Yeah, there are things that exist, and it IS a big step up, but it's still not even something that could be called "good utility."

The initiators needed more noncombat stuff and less combat stuff. maneuvers on their own are good combat, why do the full initiators all have class features comparable to 1pp martials on top of that?

>> No.50065324


>The initiators needed more noncombat stuff and less combat stuff. maneuvers on their own are good combat, why do the full initiators all have class features comparable to 1pp martials on top of that?

Because otherwise there wouldn't need to be multiple full initiators?

>> No.50065326

Honestly, the fact that some people do like to use them is even more of a reason to make anything and everything that can, thematically, be justified as Ex be Ex.

Outside of AMF/dead magic zone use, Ex is mechanically identical to Su. Thus, unless your DM is actively choosing to shit on you, there's no difference... And if they ARE doing that, then you should be able to keep some of your abilities.

>> No.50065341

Sure there would. There's tons of design space for full initiators. DSP took the fucking lazy way out though and differentiated them by "combat styles" when they could have used maneuvers to do that and designed classes with utility.

But even with the current ones, for a few examples:

>Mystic with maneuvers, animus, and crafting/item-themed utility abilities, instead of also getting buffing better than any 1pp 6-caster
>Warlord with leader, social abilities, and stuff like vigilante's "you can affect the narrative" powers
>Zealot with more psionics stuff than "tank in combat for someone"

>> No.50065342

PoW having a higher floor is a good thing. But that doesn't change the fact that its ceiling is still higher than 1pp classes.

>PoW powerlevel invalidates a lot of 1pp
I agree, with the counter that it's conceptually an improvement over what it replaces.

In 1pp if you wanted to play a swashbuckler, a gunslinger, a dual wielder, a sneaky rogue, etc, you were stuck with the fact that you'd forever be worse than your spellcasting buddies.
And yes, with PoW, they'll now be even more obsolete - but PoW brings the options to play characters extremely similar in concept and flavor with actually good mechanics.
It obsoletes classes, but not concepts.
Offense-focus magus can now be competent as a mystic (Or harbinger), bards can now be warlords or rubatos, classic fighter can be warder, etc.
They fill in the gaps from anything they replace.

>> No.50065351

The ceiling is not higher than many of the 1pp classes, except the lower end of the Tier 5s and 6s.

Not even in damage.

>> No.50065354

I agree with everything in this post, but want to call back to this one: >>50065210

PoW invalidates and replaces, but just... Doesn't have anything for people who DON'T want to be using PoW. Sometimes, people don't want to do that, and PoW is advertised as working alongside more normal PF, when it really doesn't.

From my experience, problem disciplines aside, PoW seems decently balanced against itself, but just makes anything else in the game unfun to play if you want to take part in combat when the rest of the party is PoW stuff (an optimized full caster can compete, yes, but that's not FUN)

>> No.50065360

I won't name names, but at least one DSP staff member has mentioned actually feeling the same way as you on how the initiator class features turned out.

PoW was an organic evolving project and is far from perfect out the door, but just looking at the entire beast as a whole, we're better with it than without it.

>> No.50065364

You have no choice to invalidate some of the 1pp.

You can't make ANY kind of useful character and *NOT* invalidate the fucking core monk by doing so. You can't. When a class' entire claim to fame is "sucks harder than things that have event horizons", ANY class at all that anyone makes that is even remotely viable automatically invalidates the core monk in its entirety.

You just can't fucking avoid it.

>> No.50065369

Yeah, that makes sense. The problem is... While we're better with it than without it, we're also STUCK with the bad bits, since DSP will never fix them. They'll bandage it with errata but the base PoW subsystem is fundamentally flawed, and everything built on it inherits these flaws.

>> No.50065374

>It obsoletes classes, but not concepts.
I think this is the really important bit. My favorite example is the Warder - when was the last time you built a fighter, barbarian, or paladin as a "tough guy"?

Damage is basically the end-all-be-all for these classes because getting a target to attack you when they want to go after one of your squishier buddies is night impossible unless you do a lockdown build, which is action denial rather than blocking attacks.

The warder does that. it fills the tough guy niche better than any other class in the game, 1pp or otherwise.

I disagree. My boyfriend, for instance, has been playing a brawler in a game that allows PoW, and he generally keeps up with the initiators and the spellcasters. The full party is my druid, a wizard, a warder, a hidden blade rogue, and his brawler, and he told us he didn't want to upgrade to a contender when that archetype came out. so far he's had no reason to regret the decision, and we've hit level 11.

>> No.50065384

Because ToB classes usually had fairly weak class features. Keep in mind that PoW was made by people that very explicitly played 3.5 with people who actually knew what they were doing, not 'hurr i maed fighter/duulist with whip i'm op'.

>> No.50065390

Warder is essentially the 4E Fighter in 3.5. This is a very, very good thing.

>> No.50065396

>The warder does that. it fills the tough guy niche better than any other class in the game, 1pp or otherwise.

Except while it CAN do that, it's intentionally playing yourself weak if you do so. Warder's optimal build is to just melt things with damage, and anything less is just weaksauce in comparison.

It sounds like your group doesn't optimize much, because you're not hitting the ceiling problems PoW has. There really shouldn't be a group where a brawler isn't outshined by a warder, assuming equal optimization. If he's working hard to keep up, sure, but the problem with the system is that if you put in the same effort with PoW, you end up stupidly far ahead.

Playing a "tank" warder is basically like playing a wizard without breaking the game. You can do it but it's not the extent of the class, and not what the system can really be measured by.

>> No.50065400

>PoW is advertised as working alongside more normal PF, when it really doesn't.

Ultimately, I think that's PoW's biggest crime: pretending to be balanced against 1pp. It can be, but it can also very easily not be.

Fingers crossed for the errata to work miracles. no pressure, DSP devs silently reading this

I think some of DSP's newer stuff has had the design goal of competing with initiators while not using initiating, though. Psionics Augmented and the Malefex, in particular. They don't have the crazy damage ceilings (I guess DSP's learnt their lesson), but they can stay competitive with initiators.

>> No.50065409

PoW was made by morons who thought the ToB classes needed MORE COMBAT. I question them playing 3.5 with people who knew what they were doing. If they did, we wouldn't have shit like Warlord gambits.

If you took the Warblade and tacked on something like the Vigilante's social talents to it, it'd be a much better-balanced, and better for the game, class than any of the PoW initiators.

>> No.50065418

>I think some of DSP's newer stuff has had the design goal of competing with initiators while not using initiating, though. Psionics Augmented and the Malefex, in particular. They don't have the crazy damage ceilings (I guess DSP's learnt their lesson), but they can stay competitive with initiators.

Yeah. They tend to be trying to compete in options/ease of building/fun, but thanks to their numbers being better designed, they're actually, you know, PLAYABLE in a Pathfinder game.

I've been playing a Living Legend, which is supposedly balanced against War Soul (but getting more utility/less combat power), and it works well and comparably to our party's Vigilante and Magus. I couldn't say the same of a PsiArm WarSoul.

>> No.50065423

Given the warder is building on my build plan that's meant to kill Tor Linnorms solo at level 15, I have to respectfully disagree. The brawler is keeping up because he's optimized well and uses pummeling style to nearly ignore DR, while also shifting around combat modes as needed since brawlers essentially have a floating feat. Being large size helps a lot, as does the Throat Slicer feat.

>> No.50065424

PoW 1 was all errantx with elric and gareth pulled on halfway to check over things when most of it was already written

>> No.50065439


More combat? 'Use concentration for your damage roll' blew the crap out of what most PoW characters can do due to how cheap magic items that boosted skills were.

>> No.50065443

>Throat Slicer
Ah, I stand corrected. Fair enough. It's early, and I'm multitasking prepping for work and this. I'm sorry for being rude about that.

If it's working for you, great. You're an exception though; most of the stories of players tend to be about imbalance.

>> No.50065446

yeah Path of War is basically ErrantX's homebrew but in a book. so, uh, that's the timeline we live in.

>> No.50065450

It's as balanced as anything can be.
Remember, when you balance things against 1pp, you have to balance against:

>Wizards, Clerics and Druids
>Paragon Surge Oracles, Master Summoners
>Synthesist Summoners and Alchemists
>Barbarians, archer paladins and investigators
>The rogue
>The Vigilante
>Sword and board fighter
>The Monk
>The Overwhelming Soul Kineticist

you gotta pick a balancing point. They picked roughly tier 3. And that means the things above are still better, the things around it are just as good, and the Overwhelming Soul stays utter shit.

>> No.50065453

No 3.5/PF game at all can function without an agreement of trust between all players to not break the system.

Optimised casters breaking things is a problem. So are maximum damage initiators.
If the former was already a consistent problem to you though, the question is why you haven't left PF already.
I see PoW as a useful tool for people who have agreed not to break the game, but also want to have fun as martials.

>> No.50065454

Or 'give a party member a second round of actions as a swift action', which, if you REALLY wanted to push your luck, you could do every single round with an idiot crusader.

>> No.50065458

>due to how cheap magic items that boosted skills were

Unless your DM was houseruling in such items, the highest you could ever get was a +10. "Use concentration for your damage roll" tended to be about 2 * (16ish + level in damage), and came online at level 7.

46 damage, +2 per level, as a standard action, with a normal attack roll, really wasn't that huge.

>> No.50065460

Yeah, I've experienced it before, and I'm sort of dreading what's going to happen around the time we reach level 15 or so. that's around the point when PoW characters and spellcasters leave standard martial behind entirely, and my boyfriend doesn't always take that sort of thing well, despite his stubborn refusal to accept being anything other than a standard martial.

Until then, though, he's happily twisting the heads off of giants.

>> No.50065461

>Unless your DM was houseruling in such items

You mean 'using the item creation rules that were in the core rulebooks along with the item creation feats in the core rulebooks'?

>> No.50065467


Or 'Make the GM very confused as he tries to work out the limits of Iron Heart Surge'

>> No.50065475

if he's well built, at least for damage it won't be too troublesome.

the bigger issue will probably be items/value; you basically get to go "well, I can already fly, and I boost my own haste, so I guess I can afford that belt of physical supremacy +6. How's YOUR shopping going honey?"

I suggest a blowjob.

>> No.50065482

Few things are as effective against Teen Pregnant unless captain falcon is around.

>> No.50065486

IHS is fucking terrible for being a standard action with no clause that allows its usage to supersede effects like paralysis or stuns, which is the exact type of effect you'd expect it to work on.

>> No.50065494

Yeah, yeah. ToB had problem maneuvers just like PoW did, but as a whole, it was far more balanced. We all know about Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. White Raven as a whole was rather dumb.

Warblade had "you can conditionally add Int to damage rolls as sneak attack."

Warlord has "add Cha to all your attack rolls and if you hit, add tons of damage to it too."

>Using the item creation rules that were in the core rulebooks
>Using the EXPLICITLY DM-adjudication-only guidelines, with notes about being careful about what items are in play, when WotC later printed prices for a specific +10 Concentration item in the Magic Item Compendium, but pointedly left it at that.

Did you even play 3.5 or are you just going on secondhand information? I'm honestly confused. I've been playing since 2004 and I've never seen someone seriously ask for (or allow) a +30 item of a skill using the DMG guidelines.

>> No.50065495


Oh yeah. IHS wasn't the best effect but it's wording was hilarious vague.

>> No.50065496

It was badly written in general, this is nothing new.

>> No.50065503


>Did you even play 3.5 or are you just going on secondhand information?

I've been playing since AD&D. I played 3.5 for years, yeah.

>> No.50065504

>Warblade had "you can conditionally add Int to damage rolls as sneak attack."
And this is why you got PoW's class features - the majority of class features in ToB might as well have been nonexistent.

>> No.50065508

And yet you seem to think the DMG's rules were item creation rules, rather than DM guidelines.

Look, if that's what happened at your table, cool, but that was not the default or the math expectation.

>> No.50065515

It's almost like the ToB classes were designed around their maneuvers being their class features, and knew when to stop, instead of filling the table with extra abilities for no real reason.

Even if one were to fill them in, it sure as hell shouldn't be with more combat abilities like PoW did.

>> No.50065516

>Warlord has "add Cha to all your attack rolls and if you hit, add tons of damage to it too."

This one's confirmed for nerf

>> No.50065518

not that anon, but I'll point out that Technically speaking, allowing players to choose prestige classes at all was a hourserule, as the DMG outright said these were intended for NPCs.

Expectation and reality were two different things in 3.5

>> No.50065519

Youmu, anon, Youmu

>> No.50065530

>instead of filling the table with extra abilities for no real reason.
You mean like Pathfinder deliberately does?

>> No.50065533

The gambits in general do that.

I'm arguing that easy +30 skill items were not an often reality, and not really a sign that ToB was somehow overpowered. PoW has the exact same +30 skill items by that logic, and it also has skill check damage maneuvers.

>> No.50065538

>what are wizard, cleric, sorcerer

While Pathfinder does do that, DSP apparently missed the memo about classes not needing an extremely strong ability at every level when they already have an extremely good subsystem at every level as well.

>> No.50065548

didn't one of the ToB disciplines have Jump as the discipline skill? In a game where a certain race literally had a racial +30 to jump checks?

>> No.50065549



I thought you were replying to the sunbreaker stuff... then you weren't. Yohmu is one of my favorite 2hu's because she's a little ball of hate and fury in a fight.

"If I die in the afterlife, wouldn't I just 'respawn' here?" "I'LL SEND YOU TO HELL!"

>> No.50065564

Yeah, but almost nothing actually used the skill, except for literal Jump checks. The only discipline that had Skill-to-Anything maneuvers was, iirc, Diamond Mind, which was Concentration.

ToB wasn't PoW though I do like that PoW has more skill stuff, and didn't do that often, even for counters.

>> No.50065570

Yes, and LDS gave +10 ft to jump distances and made them automatic running jumps, and it didn't just apply to horizontal jumps either.

>> No.50065593

It's not a matter of pronunciation, but rather how it carries over with Japanese spelling. I'm just talking about spelling here.

also, forget Youmu, I wanna play Youki in a campaign

>> No.50065622

nobody is bitching about the lowtiers being invalidated

we're worried about 6th level casters being fucked up because they can only do out of combat shit and are outright surpassed in combat

>> No.50065634

Honestly they were enough to sate you. I feel like Stalker would be in a good place if was Full BAB class feature wise

Not to mention ToB manuvers where much better balanced in that you didn't make the rogue want to kill themselves immediately.

>> No.50065647

Not true. Swooping Dragon Strike is a Fort save vs your Jump check to not be stunned, Soaring Raptor Strike is Jump vs AC for +4 to hit and +6d6 damage. Feral Death Blow is Jump vs AC for a SoD, +20d6 if they succeed that save.

>> No.50065649

I think probably my favorite build in PoW is the Brutal Slayer Stalker. It feels awesome while being rather effective, particuarly if you optimize your strength

>> No.50065652

seriously, its ok to give weak abilities to classes

>> No.50065654

That's okay, PF already did that and then some for them.

>> No.50065659

>Not to mention ToB manuvers where much better balanced in that you didn't make the rogue want to kill themselves immediately.

No, it was 'Being a rogue' that made them want to kill themselves. Being unable to sneak attack someone in a dark alleyway will do that.

>> No.50065673

Not being Full BAB hurts and so does delaying getting STR to AC for so long since your a sitting duck up till like level 6. I can understand why because otherwise Brutal Slayer becomes THE dip for any martial ever who isn't going to be a Dex faggot.

>> No.50065675

>Be unchained monk
>GM creates NPC mentor 5 levels above me
>He's just there teaching me, sometimes helping us
>Flashforward 5 levels and 2 ingame years
>Mentor tells me I'm roughly at the same level he was when he started to teach me
>Go to monastery/sanctuary in where mentor learnt
>Wise old guy tell us to go into somekind of meditative dream in where I'll face my mentor 2 years ago
>Cool, me fighting my mentor with the same level, let's see how much I learnt
>Roll ini
>He goes first
>Deals 4 times my HPs in one turn
>KO without being able to do shit
>GM as the mentor shakes his head
Fucking bullshit
How can a 8th level unchained monk deal ≈ 250 damage in one turn?

>> No.50065678

>Not to mention ToB manuvers where much better balanced in that you didn't make the rogue want to kill themselves immediately.
I call bullshit because I actually played a Rogue in a party with a Warblade. Between the constant +xd6 spam from maneuvers and stances and how much of a giant fucking pain in the ass it is to do anything other than attack once if you're on the move without a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip, they were consistently throwing a ton more d6 than me.

>> No.50065717

I'm salty that Augunas does good work sometimes. Microsized Adventures was really fucking good, but his furry fingerprints are all over it.

>> No.50065723

>Microsized Adventures

>> No.50065743

This thing. It has excellent rules for tiny shenanigans and fights against giants, but it's also the source of the "tiny furry in a jar of piss" image.

>> No.50065776

What, did you not have Craven and Travel Devotion?

>> No.50065778

He dipped some levels in DMPC.

>> No.50065835

>the cover of it is two furries


>> No.50065843

dude an 8th level anything can't deal that much damage

you just got DMPC'd

>> No.50065853

>He's pointing out a problem with improper material in a professional book
>LOL Lets call him Jack Chick!
I fucking hate paizo I swear.

>> No.50065867

what really triggers me is that one of the furries has hair in this picture, and the other doesn't


>> No.50065873

>dude an 8th level anything can't deal that much damage
I'm a unchained monk and I can't deal that much damage like at all

>> No.50065880


You got DMPC'd dude. You got DMPC's

the DM just took that opportunity to piss all over your face.

>> No.50065886

Mr. Bubbles is the hero we deserve

>> No.50065906

Sorry, I read "anything can" because your phrase was worded pretty weirdly.

>> No.50065911

PoW can deal that much at that level if you build it right

>> No.50065925

please we just got out of this i don't want to go back

>> No.50066073


The most effective thief is some type of Slayer, I think they even have a "thief" archetype.

>> No.50066115


That wasn't me dude, that was a newer, better hero.

>> No.50066932

Uh, how about a new thread? Or at least a bunch of captures of those horrifying furry rapefests from the grimoire of lost souls, that we can send a few emails to paizo about their favorite "1pp"'s materials..

Since obviously from the product thread, they haven't fucking read it.

>> No.50067037

I played a hetero duo app where a friend and I played a pair of half brothers.

>> No.50067125

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