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48572017 No.48572017 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What if the world of Warhammer Fantasy advanced to the 18th century?

Which factions would be predominant? What would elves, dwarves, orcs and goblins look like in the gunpowder era?

Would the Empire be as strong as it is now? Would Brettonia get some sort of Louis XIV character and rise to hegemony?

Would the orcs be able to field an effective battle line? In 40k they are assumed to have basic mechanical skills, so it's safe to say they can operate muskets and cannon.

I would love to see some artistic adaptations of WFB factions having advanced technologically a few centuries. Elves in 18th century style uniform would be awesome.

Thoughts? Ideas? Personally I think it's an exciting concept.

>> No.48572188

The empire is ascendent while the Elves struggle to adapt. The Dwarfs have pushed the Greenskins out and have reclaimed much of their holds. The Ogres still hold dominion over their mountains and foght as mercenaries in the many conflicts of the Old World. Lustria is under assault by Skaven and Humans while the Bampires have manipulated their way into the very heart of the Empires governance. It is age where science and reason have triumphed over dark magic and superstition but it is still an age of war.

>> No.48572226

Would an age of Imperialism set in?

Would Araby have become some great existential threat like the ottomans?

What would remain of the Lizardmen, assuming some Estalian Cortez character brought them to their knees?

Would Albion have eventually become relevant after an Elizabethan age, modernized to the same point as the other factions?

How would the Ogres go to battle? Would they all wield cannons?

What about chaos? Gunpowder use is plausible to the Greenskins, but I have a hard time imagining Chaos picking up guns, unless there was some development where the Warriors from the North were totally defeated and the new Chaos faction was some sort of Empire rebellion a la 30 years war protestant/catholic divide.

The more I think about this, the more it excites me.

>> No.48572233

>>48572188
So the armies would be as follows:

Empire(merged with VC)
Skaven
High Elves
Tilea
Estalia
Dwarfs
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Cultists(old WOC merged with imperial style units and beastmen fodder)
Lizardmen
Skink Empires
Ogre Dominions(OK + O&G)

>> No.48572278

>>48572226
Yes

No

Skink Client States while the few remaining Slaan hold out in the deep jungle with the aid of the artifacts of the Old Ones

No

Yep probably looted hellblasters too

Chaos would mostly be cultist armies and Daemons

>> No.48572388

>>48572278
I like your answers, except for Albion and Araby. Would that be too confusing? I feel like there wouldn't be a whole lot of room for the orcs to be truly a threat, with so many great human powers.

Do you feel like Brettonia should be modernized or still be 50-100 years behind militarily

>> No.48572428

>>48572388
Brettonia would probably be some french revolutionary esque state or conquered by the Empire. As for Araby well the Ogres kind of fill the Ottoman thing(down to the giant cannons)

>> No.48572677
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48572677

>>48572233
>Chaos Cultists(old WOC merged with imperial style units and beastmen fodder)

I think the Warriors of Chaos and the Beastmen would stay pretty solidly together. They can be bulletproof while still being fairly fast (WOC) or specialize in uneven guerrilla combat (Beastmen). The Iberians and redcoats were often outmatched by big French columns that could take a pounding and keep going straight through their line, and that was with a century more of infantry tactics. Imagine what a horde of beastmen, concealed with magic (of which there are several different variations in WHF) to reduce accuracy and rushing in a looser horde could do. Sure, they'd take losses, but they'd make it close enough to rip into the humans.

That's one thing that nobody has brought up- many of the races of the Old World are inclined to stick with melee, either because they are faster than humans (Elves, Skaven), stronger than humans (Orcs, Ogres, Chaos, actually most of them), or better able to push through the lead hail at 15-second intervals (Undead of all stripes, Orcs, Ogres, etc). There's a reason the humans still have plenty of greatswords and well-armoured knights, and it's not just that the handgun tech is a bit primitive.

>> No.48572688

>>48572428
See I think you could do the Brets either way, Louis XIV or Napoleonic, either way I feel like they ought to be the major human faction instead of the Empire in the new setting.

Obviously the old imperial domains are fractured, but will there be some type of Austrian/Habsburg analog in the east?

Let's say middenland is Prussia. Does Kislev get some Peter The Great Character to compensate?

But let's get back to the Orcs. Have they become a lesser power, subjugated by the military superiority of mankind or are they still a major threat?

>> No.48572996
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48572996

>>48572677

The cultists seem a bit far fetched, as far as being able to actually deploy full armies, unless they are some bastard combination of empire/woc/beastmen as you've suggested.

In my mind I was picturing more of a Horus Heresy/30 years war scenario (or a combination of the two) where there are distinctly chaotic human city states, sort of a complete reverting to chaos, where the armies are really just evil humans augmented with demonic characters and warmachines, like the CSM. They would fight very similarly to normal humans (line infantry) but have an evil look to them and special rules, etc...

I dunno. It's a very big question. Adapting this setting to a factual historic development is extremely complicated. But I really like where we are headed here.

>> No.48573003

>>48572688
Nah, make Bret like Britain, the major colonial and sea power. While the Empire is Napoleon's empire.

>> No.48573120
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48573120

>>48572996
>Chaotic city state

Anon, we need to sit down and talk about what Chaos is. Chaos is not just 'a bunch of assholes'. They may occasionally gather in one place and be beaten into doing something, but the idea of a structured government that survives and continues to produce anything but hellspawn and misery is antithetical to the whole operation. Even Chaos Dwarves, who are the least chaotic of the followers of Chaos (likely because of their natural immunity) survive only by trading slaves with less organized warbands and raiding caravans for su.

>> No.48573159

>>48573003
That is an interesting albeit far simpler development, and frankly it does make a lot of sense. The real question you raise is whether or not the Empire really ought to remain "The Empire" or go the historical route of disintegrating the way it did.

Considering Warhammer has no real analog to Charles V, uniting most of the old world under one "banner" it's hard to gauge how the political development progresses. I would argue that this continuation should stay in line with the fluff and keep its historical grounding. Personally it's why I find Warhammer so intriguing to begin with; no other fantasy setting really juxtaposes stages of human development as well as WFB.

>> No.48573227
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48573227

>>48573159
>Warhammer has no real analog to Charles V

What did you say, heretic?

Everyone didn't start kneeling before the hammer, but he did bring all the feuding imperial states into line, and established strong ties with the High Elves. Combined with the friendly relationships with Bretonnia and the Dwarves, they're already aligned.

>> No.48573313

>>48573120
I am imagining the Chaotic corruption being similar to Vampiric corruption in the sense that the leader himself becomes corrupted, but for reasons of power remains somewhat normal to his followers, in order to execute his agenda and increase influence.

The inhabitants of the Empire respect order fundamentally and therefore need actual leadership and direction, not just "kill, maim, burn!"

Which is why I proposed that the warriors of the north were defeated, and now the Gods must act more subtly, corrupting the government in less obvious ways, until it erupts in devastating civil war, where both sides are truly fighting for their religions.

The Empire (Sigmar/Catholics) against protestants (chaos/Sweden). You know?

>> No.48574163
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48574163

Another thing about chaos corruption is that it is directed by a God which is by definition Sentient. This conscience is scheming and malicious, and can be as rambunctious or subtly meddling as it likes.

So assume a scenario where the Storm of Chaos campaigns went heavily in favor of the forces of order. Chaos is almost completely eradicated in a few decisive battles and the forces of Men, Elves and Dwarfs begin to finally claim the north for themselves. Chaos is resisted almost completely for a century and the threat fades into memory.

Until now, a new age, where the old world loses focus. Looking outward, the forces of order begin taking whole masses of the globe for their own.

>High Elves taking control of Cathay
>Brettonians subjugating Dark Elves in Naggaroth
>Estalians conquering Lustria
>Tilea dominating the Dwarfs in trade
>Arabyan Sultans channeling the Tomb Kings to do their bidding
>Kislev pushing back the Ogre kingdoms deep into the east

And the Empire, drunk on its economic superiority, looks outwards to the globe. The Dark Gods know this and are beginning to make a move, corrupting governors here and there, driving an elector count (or two) mad. The Empire is divided, fighting between the old Gods and the New.

These corrupted Imperial armies are not openly chaotic, in fact they look rather normal. Except now their shields are adorned by tasteful Chaotic insignia rather than that of Sigmar. Their armor and dress is roughly twinged the color of their patron god and they exhibit only barely discernible traits of their respective mark. Khornate Cuirassers are particularly noticeable as they become ravenously bloodthirsty on the charge. But as a whole these armies are far more refined and dignified than the Chaos armies of old.

I'm trying to envision a sober world where the Western Human Domains are on top politically and economically, despite the continued existence of the remaining races of the world.

>> No.48574395
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48574395

So already the Skaven have some advanced firearms the likes of actual Gatling Guns and Sniper Rifles and an abundance of muskets.

In this 18th century Warhammer, and in keeping with them having more advanced firearm concepts than most of the rest of the world, would it be acceptable to mold the Skaven into a more WW1 Deutsches Heer or even WW2 Wermacht vibe?

Instead of a ratling gun say, a Maxim or MG34 Ratling gun, and Jezzail's being replaced with bolt action rifles?

>> No.48574477

>>48574163
Well if your talking about how Storm of Choas should have gone then Tomb Kings were big Order contributors. I kind of like the idea of them finding a way to reverse partly or fully the corruption of the great waterways and making part of the land lush again.

TKs would be a mix of living and undead units, a land under the staggering weight of tradition but also busing with pioneer spirt from the population boom of new settlers being invited in to making a home in the revived land.

Good friction of people trying to figure out how social mobility working when the man above you can never die.

Revival of the Mortuary Cult and other institutions then being filled with warm and cold bodies as the demands of the empire explode with the tidal waves of immigration.

On the table they'd deal in unbreakable but limited line infantry supporting large Malitia units.

Conventional artillery bought from The Empire mixed with wicked bone magic augmentations to do silly shit like quick lime that toughness up the skeletons.

>> No.48574930

>>48573313
I think you are trying to force the 30 years war thing too much. It's not even 18th century. Maybe something more like the war of spanish succession or the seven years war?

>> No.48575011

>>48573313
More like Sigmar vs Myrmidia.

>> No.48575386

>>48574395
This thought does genuinely terrify me. What would be their weakness though?

>> No.48575847

>>48575386
Still just as divided. Skaven technology advances rapidly, but the Skaven as a whole are held back due to their own predilection towards backstabbing and paranoia.

>> No.48575995
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48575995

>>48574395
The skaven would destroy itself.

>> No.48576012

>>48575847
Europe was divided and far less numerous when they took over the globe.

>> No.48576160

>>48576012
Massive awakening to their presence and then a concerted between other factions to eradicate them?

Thus forcing the large concentrations into the badlands where resources are scare but their science is solid so they skip straight past the modern era to becoming Mad Max warbands draped in dieselpunk sensibilities.

Just an idea.

>> No.48576174

>>48576012
We're talking Slav/balkan levels of internal conflicts here, possibly to the point of enjoying self conquest more than actual external conquest

>> No.48576271
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48576271

>>48576160
I like the dieselpunk, but I also like the idea of knowledge of Skaven still being ignored and suppressed, despite everything. This is still Warhammer, after all.

>>48576174
Maybe Clan Pestelins goes hot and starts dropping bioweapons all over the Under-Empire in a bid to take control, and the Council of Thirteen fights back? You get Skyre as the power of the Council, Pestelins as their main enemy, Clan Moulder splintered (some with the Council, some with Pestelins, some making their own independent kingdom in the North harvesting settlers) and the majority of the minor clans throwing in with either side and flip-flopping based on who is winning today.

>> No.48576850

>>48575386
even less reliable

>> No.48580758

>>48576271
Admittedly, the rise of urbanization in the later 18th century would greatly aid the spread of the Skaven. More sewers and tunnels for them to hide in and unsanitary conditions work in their favor.

>> No.48583941
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48583941

What happens? Why glorious NULNDON Of course!

>> No.48584574

Most importantly, everyone would have OUTRAGEOUS wigs. The Empire would be at a new height of power but revolution would be stirring, and behind every other revolutionary band would obviously be a chaos cult.

It would be great fun, basically.

>> No.48584849

>>48584574
>slaaneshi jacobins.

I'm okay with this

>> No.48584964

>>48584849
I think the revolutionaries would be mainly Tzeentchian. Slaanesh would be having great fun with all the foppish nobility instead.

>> No.48585017

Philosophes would be subtly suggesting that the gods aren't real, Sigmar was just a dude with a hammer, magic operates according to perfectly comprehensible natural principles and daemonic possession is a myth.

The Chaos Gods would of course love them.

>> No.48585387

An important thing to consider is that 18th warfare depended very much on breaking the morale of the enemy through massed volleys. As many factions in war hammer are either much harder to kill, or have far better morale then your average regiment of humans, it is quite likely that warfare in the war hammer world would differ significantly from the warfare during the 18th century, even with the same technology.

I see the dark elves as being quite likely to industrialise and adopt gunpowder as soon as it becomes more reliable, as many of their iconic weapons such as respecter crossbows are adapted from other cultures and their cities are already massive enough that they are on the verge of industrialising.

The high elves would likely be more set in their ways and due to their immense magical power would probably be able to retain a great deal of relavence in the world, although their status as the most powerful force of order would be less certain.

I see Bretonnia becoming a major colonial power, possibly expanding into Araby and the southlands or even establishing a foothold in the new world. Meanwhile I see the empire either fracturing into warring provinces or uniting and attempting to establish hegemony over the other nations of the old world.

Cathy could become a major player if the threat of chaos is reduced and they could expand into Nippon and Ind.

>> No.48585533

>>48572677
And even in the 18th century, armor would've been pretty useful at stopping bullets - Chief Iron Jacket had an old suit of conquistador mail, and it supposedly took six shots to kill him. It's just that by that time in real history, armor had been phased out because the protection wasn't quite worth the cost of trying to equip everybody, and bright colored uniforms and organizing in big ranks to inaccurately shoot at each other was the norm. Honor was very important, and at least early in wars generals and captains would be doing chivalrous actions for enemy commanders.

Basically I don't think the Empire would be able to go fully 18th century like the 18th century was in real world history, because very few of the other factions would be willing to play by the 'civilized' rules that warfare used then.

>> No.48585723

>>48585533
No that's retarded.


A. Bulletproof armor was extremely thick and heavy compared to the armor of previous generations, which is why you only see them as cuirasses

B. There were a number of reasons that European armies formed up in tight ranks vs the looser formations of the eastern empires. The main reason being, shock was important. The purpose of fire(shooting) was to weaken and disorganize the enemy, not break them. Battles would often be decided by bayonet charges. In fact Napoleons most important contribution to the french army was probably the adoption of massed infantry columns that could assault the enemy. Another reason for the tight formation was drill, guns still weren't super lethal and it was hard to coordinate a lot of men that were very spread out. Finally cavalry really hadn't ceased to be a significant force at this point and a cavalry charge could turn a battle if the infantry weren't organized to repulse it.

>> No.48585785

>>48585387
>>48585533

This, can't really do a straight cut&paste of warhammer to 18th Century without really having to trample tons of stuff to fit. And if you did just a straight copy-paste of fantasy stuff you just get Flintloque, and no-one wants that.

So it'd be easier and probably more useful to simply track changes in style of warfare and society that can be paralleled, and work out how the improvements in industry and organisation would work when integrated with existing parts of the setting. Like is it worth moving from knights with lances to knights with pistols? Or is it smarter to have knights with both?

I'd be very wary of trying to have one nation achieve domination over another like the Empire vs Brettonia though as the world is set up so natural geographic boundaries (aka all those fuckheug mountain ranges) prevent that.

>> No.48585859

>>48572017
I really don't think the Warhammer world would stay in the 18th century all that long, I mean they already have a working steam engine and semi-modern rifles. My best guess is that after 10 or so years the Empire would undergo an industrial revolution at which point Chaos and the Greenskins would be absolutely fucked by things like machine guns and explosive artillery.

>> No.48586388

>>48585859

I think it could remain that way for a suitably long time, things in warhammer move in strange manners regarding time. For instance back in the (Empire) year 2000 with Mordheim, pistols were a fairly new but not uncommon thing. In the 2400s, pistols and other gunpowder weapons are still much the same, let alone everything else.

>> No.48586565
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48586565

>>48572017
>Would the Empire be as strong as it is now?
Considering it'd be neither Holy nor Roman, no.

>Would Brettonia get some sort of Louis XIV character and rise to hegemony?
18th century includes the year 1799, which means Bretonnia would get Consul Napoleon. The best kind of Napoleon!

>> No.48586904

>>48585785
Agree with this, Trying to copy paste real world 18th century history directly into warhammer isn't going to work. Unless the setting started off like this in the first place.

Assuming that the empire had massive victories in the endtimes/storm of chaos event equivalent, I still don't think they'd ever go full uniforms and bayonets like in the real world. We'd see more cooperation between The colleges of magic and the engineering and gunner schools during that war, and this would continue on after that. Remember, the Empire has only recently had wizards and they are advancing magically as well as technologically. I don't think wizards or arcane battle altars or magi tech will go anywhere just because handguns and artillery become more prevalent. If anything we will have more fusion between those. I remember in Sigmars blood they had experimental rockets that created artificial daylight, and in end times the Bright wizards and engineers combined their wits to create tiny bombs that created much greater explosions than their size gave off. I also remember seeing that Gelt and the gold college would often develop better metals, gunpowders and explosives through the use of magic and sell them to the engineers.
After a few centuries the empire probably would have figured out how to advance their steam engines at least to the level of the dwarfs currently, and would finally have ironclads, gyrocopters and better steam tanks.

>> No.48587353

I want dandified dorfs in powdered wigs.

>> No.48590211

>>48587353
No dwarf would ever bring himself to wear a powdered wig

>> No.48591095

>>48584574
>>48584849
Now that's a good direction to take chaos.

I love that we're having fun with this idea. Still no one has really presented any thought out opinions on how to implement the orcs. I reckon they would make a hardy force if led properly. Lots of grenadiers.

>> No.48591429

>>48591095
Orcs remain orcs, if they start getting guns, well I doubt they'll be forming ranks and firing in volleys with them, more like firing off a bunch of pistols or just delegating them down to Goblins. Back to 3rd edition with goblin suicide bombers (intentional or otherwise) it'd be if handed grenades.

Black Orcs could have the discipline to use massed fire, but still would prefer not to, since orcs designate the people in the tribe that are kinda crap to be the shooty ones, and no black orc is that low on the social scale.

>> No.48591548

>>48591429
Orcs could get very Swedish with Carolean tactics where they just march up, shock with one large volley then charge to break and run down.

>> No.48592038

>>48591429
Maybe base the Orcs off the Iranians? A mix of archaic and modern forces with a high degree of mobility. Maybe some sort of Ghazgkull type figure who takes the role Nader Afsharid did?

I'm interested in the Dwarfs, they are super tradition bound so I can't see them adopting the new style of warfare without issues

>> No.48592303

>>48584574
>revolution would be stirring,

Isn't that already happening in the Empire?

>> No.48592376

>>48572226
>What would remain of the Lizardmen, assuming some Estalian Cortez character brought them to their knees?
I think that a Skaven Cortez would be more likely; although, thats forgetting that the Lizard men lack everything that hurt the Aztecs. Unlike the Aztecs, they arent totally unimune from disease, they are homogenus under the Slann, and they have Dinosaurs to help even the odds. Not to mention that the only reason Skaven can put such a dent into the Lizardmen is because their plagues are so fucking deadly, and the laughably huge hordes they have to throw into the grinder. To think that a Estalian could succeed where the Skaven, Warriors of Chaos and Dark elves failed is rather unlikely.

As for the rest of your questions, Maybe? A big difference is that when The Empire and Brettonia crusaded into Araby, they actually did a pretty good job of trashing the place, and killing their Sultan. So im not sure if they'd be so eager to have that happen again. Albion, in the Warhammer world, is still pretty much a place filled with Celts and Druids. So them rising to power would be rather strange.

Ogres already carry Cannons, leadbelchers, so its not too far off to have more and more ogres prefer them. I dont think they'd replace melee entireoly though. Greenskinz would like them, but just like non-empire Ogres, getting them would be dammably hard while Melee would still be relatively usable.

>> No.48592393

>>48592376
In my opinion, the problem with this scenario is that in the Warhammer world, most creatures eat bullets for breakfast and there is very little for them to colonize:
North America has the Dark Elves with Ulthuan inbetween
Down south is the death trap of Nehekara, before you reach the south most jungles
Lustria/South America is a cluster fuck of Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos, Amazons, Skavens, Undead and a very very deadly jungle.
China has repelled many chaos invasions, and Japan is filled with Kitsune, Beastmen, Ninjas and the homelands of Clan Eshin.
Ind is possibly a good place to exploit, seeing as the Everqueen can punch through the beastmen every ten years. It wouldnt be too hard to establish a colony there, enslave the peoples and begin working it as a colony. Perhaos beastmen could be enslaved, or Undead are used as a cheap source of manpower? That would be the logical extensions of Necromancy and the growth of industry.

>> No.48592419

>>48590211
>>48587353
Nay, they shall wear powdered beards

>> No.48592442

>>48584574
>and behind every other revolutionary band would obviously be a chaos cult.

Already been done.

See: Beasts in Velvet

>> No.48592815

>>48592038
Honestly I'd just keep orcs as they are, and maybe add guns as warmachines. Classic organ gun style (historical not warhammer) with bundles of muskets rigged to go off together, maybe steal a few chaos dwarf blunderbuss, and perhaps attaching rockets to goblins for fun and fireworks.

>>48592303
There's always something like that going on, the empire is a big place after all.

>> No.48593266

If the empire advances technologically and magically, that doesn't mean the other factions do as well. If anything, the Empire ascendant would drive the beastmen back into the deepest woods and clear most of the greenskins out. Both would be occasional problems but ones that could be dealt with much more easily than they are currently. Just like in the time when the Elves and Dwarfs were ascendant and all the "evil" races were driven back to the point where they were considered minor threats. The skaven would be too scared to go after the Empire, but they would still be sabotaging, bribing and attempting to bring the empire down from the inside out. Same goes with chaos cults, those aren't disappearing anytime soon. The empire would start launching Retaliatory crusades against the Norse like they were before the end times, and the threat of chaos raids would be much reduced. With most of the bad guy races hiding or too scared to challenge Imperial Supremacy, they start turing their attentions towards Bretonnia, Kislev, Estalia and Tilea. Kislev would be first to fall and be brought into the imperial fold, while Tilea and the border princes are next. Bretonnia would be the hardest to take down due to their navy and the mountains separating the 2, and will likely remain as the chief rival for control of the old world. I'd rather see Bretonnia go full Magic than go full french revolution, with their faith in the lady being even more powerful and actually deflecting bullets and other non-chivalrous Weapons. In fact, Bretonia could be the primary reason why the empire still needs to invest heavily armored knights and melee troops.

>> No.48593435

>>48593266
Eh, I dont think invading Kislev would be all too good a Idea, nor does it make much sense. Even in the real world, England didnt invade Russia even though it was both far behind them technologically wise, and still running under feudalism. Infact, considering that Kislev has always been allies with the Empire, and is on par technologically wise, they might even go on to become minor rivals to the Empire. Plus, they work nicely as a buffer against the northern Chaos Wastes

>> No.48593732

I had a concept for a 19th century version of the Warhammer world a few months back, all I really got done was deciding what the human armies would be like:

>Empire
The most "modern" army. It has stuff like repeating rifles, machine guns, airships, and much improved steam tanks. Politically unchanged for the most part.
>Bretonnia
Underwent a peasant's revolt led by a Napoleon expy who united the kingdoms. It's now a French Empire-like entity that militarily focuses heavily on defense and artillery.
>Kislev
Politically unchanged. Replaces Bretonnia as cavalry spammers.
>Tilea
Went FULLREPUBLICANISM. It's military is ill-equipped and rather small but it makes up for these deficiencies with training and guerrilla warfare.
>Estalia
Gets into scuffles with the various factions while trying to extend their New World colonies. Has a rather outdated army.
>Araby
Sick man of the Old World.
>Cathay
19th century China without getting trampled by the European powers. Has to deal with lots of famines and rebellions.
>Nippon
19th century Japan that's rapidly industrializing. Has its sights set on the slowly-weakening Cathay.
>Ind
Getting colonized by Marienburg.

>> No.48593861
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48593861

>>48593732
>Bretonnia focusing on Artillery and defense
>not knights gloriously charging into battle no matter the odds
>Kislev replacing them as the cavalry faction

Absolutely unchivalrous

>> No.48593905

>>48593732
Only two problems I see:

How the hell cpuld the peasants of Brettonia revolt? Even with a guy like Napoleon at the helm of them, they'd have to deal with the reality that not only are they under equipped, but they're going against Knights who are so righteous they can reverse reverse curve bullets, have the direct affluence of a Goddess, have no magic of their own, and that the average peasant is a inbred mess. This isnt getting into the fact that the Brets are also propped up by Athen Lorel.

As for Nippon, last I recall is that they have a majority of not-awful beastmen and are busy infighting.


Other than that, I like it.

>> No.48594055

>>48593905
>napoleon expy leads successful peasant revolt in his home town
>Every Knight in that Province unites against the peasants, fully supported by the damsels and knights in other provinces
>Napolean BTFO in first straight up battle against the knights
>other peasants see what happens if they try to revolt and never attempt it again

Most of the peasants wouldn't even want to join the revolt since they would see the knights as their protectors, and going against them is a sure way to get fucking killed. So not only would a peasant revolt have to deal with the Knights, but also the Damsels, the Fay Enchantress herself, Grail Knights, and the peasants who see no point in trying to change their circumstances when they know the knights will annihilate them badly

>> No.48594178

>>48594055
I could imagine that perhaps, MAYBE, a peasant revolt could work. Whst I imagine possibly happening is that perhaps a rather down trodden port city is supplied with arms and troops from the Empire Ascendent. Not every part of Brettonia is ruled by fair and just lords, so the oppressed middle class of traders revolts, along with the especially mistreated peasants. Here, Napoleon rises up, and leads the armed peasantry. It would be propped up by the Empire, acting as a way to hurt the Brets withoit directly coming to blows with them.

Still, its really unlikely

>> No.48594210

>>48593905
I could see a king there being a king whom while popular and even following the rules of chivalry, does shit that ultimately fucks with the elves during a time of a fairly successful, or atleast more competent and successful then usual, peasant revolt, causing the elves to abandon the Nobility and instead back the Napoleon guy instead.

Though I'm personally against it, if we're going to advance the factions, I'd like for all of them to continue the themes of the original ones, so hypothetical player bases won't be betrayed by their designated new factions being nothing like their old ones.

>> No.48594248

>>48594178
This is what I was thinking of.

Either way the revolt happens in the somewhat distant past and Bretonnia is currently ruled by the granddaughter of not-Napoleon.

>> No.48594447
File: 132 KB, 584x600, Whose Plumes_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48594447

>>48593732
Don't you think this is a little too real-life?

>>48587353
>I want dandified dorfs in powdered wigs.
>Dwarfs
>Not orcs

>> No.48594669

>>48594210
>>48594248
The only problem is that the Brettonian puppet state is held up by the idea of dumb peasants being kept in line by the work of the Wood Elves. The Bret's exist to protect Athen Lorel, and keep humanity away from the sacred woods. Feudalism works in this role by controlling the masses, the knights and lords are controlled by the laws of chivalry, which are regulated by damsels, ladies and their ilk. Thus, the Lady of the Lake is the only true controller of progress in Brettonia. Thus, I think the only way that progress would happen is through a sort of Magna Carta/Revolution of the Ideals of Brettonia. Persay we do have a bad king, but, at the same time, the Wood Elves realize that Brettonia will soon be outpaced when it cones to war. Thus, when Bretpoleon comes onto the scene, the reiging king is surprised to have the Ladies and Damsels of the lady support Bretpoleon instead of him. This divides the knights, but in the end, Bretpoleon wins.

This acts as a duel solution for the wood Elves: this roots out the not as chiviliraious knights, while also allowing the Brets to progress a little. Instead of Arthurian tales and Feudalism guiding the public, it is a sort of Rebuliquè patriotism, mixed with the remnants of the old Brettonian monarchy. Instead of being held by feudalism, they are controlled by nationlism, as Peasants think their free. But in reality, there miles and miles of Red Tape for any former Peasant wishing to do anything. The lady of the lake becones the Lady of Liberty, secretly enforcing this beaucracy, while the former nobility are the only ones allowed to cut through it all. The ruler of the Rebulique of Brettonia emphasizes the values of liberty and brotherhood, yet while also ensuring that Freedom does not spread to far, same as how the knights priorly upheld chivalry and yet went against it. Knights still function as Heros of the state however.

>> No.48594681
File: 199 KB, 686x385, GettyImages-520718981-E.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48594681

>>48594210
I think you've got the right idea.

The factions should undergo changes militarily but not lose their flavor. The Humans, although having the benefit of full gunpowder based forces, are not invincible... they merely now have the advantage as opposed to classic WFB where humans are usually the underdogs in a world of magic and mischief.

Technology pushing back the darkness but not totally supreme yet. Melee is still what decides close contests, but firepower generally dictates the order of battle.

I think in the case of Brettonia it would be smoother to just have Louis XIV analog rather than Nappy. Once we start putting enlightenment philosophy into WFB I think it's getting a little convoluted.

Louis was really just a damned proficient monarch with a great vision of his country. His likeness is more adaptable to WFB than ol' nappy quite frankly.

>> No.48595001
File: 118 KB, 541x700, I don't have any WHF or 19th century pics, so here's a Cossack owl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48595001

Honestly I'd prefer a move towards the 19th rather than 18th Century. Much more eurocentric, considering the main hallmarks of the 18th century were piracy in the West Indies, the Seven Years War which was global, the American Revolution, and the French Revolution which spilled over into the 19th Century as the Napoleonic Wars, which were Objectively better than the Revolutionary Wars.

The Empire evolves from a feudal system to a unitary state, and they give up puffy sleeves for pickelhauben.

Bretonnia, either a fucking French Revolution because they're French so they must have a revolution because that's what the French do, they carry on business as usual with knights and shit, or they become sort of a mix of the two, like how Khador is a mix of Tsarist and Communist Russia in Warmachine.

Dwarfs carry on as usual. They augment their defenses with technology, but they use outdated tactics on the battlefield.

Nobody cares about the unimportant nations like Estalia and Tilea, they're irrelevant. Kislev, we could do something with them, maybe the Vampire Counts got chased out to here and they took over. Talk about hemophilia.

Orcs... Are orcs, but with gatling guns and revolvers. Same for ogres.

Chaos is behind every other revolt, but not the hypothetical Bretonnian one.

Beastmen that aren't chased out of the Old World are negro slaves to the Empire, so the rest of them are super pissed.

Chaos is Chaos, now with guns. They had a brief stint like two hundred years before where they successfully held most of the Northern Empire, but then Everybody kicked their asses (Except Araby, because they're heretics).

Elves are the same. Dark Elf attention has turned to the Southlands where there are Imperial and maybe Bretonnian colonies that are easier to raid.

Skaven are still dicking around and have dug to Australia. Meanwhile, the Empire sends convicts to Australia to work in mines. Birth of the fantasy German Australians.

>> No.48595185

>>48595001
Witch hunters are still a thing, and guess who one of them is.

The Empire and Bretonnia tried setting up colonies in the New World, but the Dark Elves destroyed them. They moved west over the mountains and became elf-hunting cowboys. Whenever a dark elf band rolls into town and takes over a movie references helps the locals fight them off. Also brought beastmen with them, but a lot of them escaped and became Indians.

Lizardmen are still screwing around in Lustria. They won't be relevant until the rest of the world discovers football and joins them in the Great Cup.

>> No.48595734
File: 69 KB, 300x162, Call my therapist.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48595734

>>48595001
>>48595185
>Beastmen that aren't chased out of the Old World are slaves to the Empire, so the rest of them are super pissed.
Also, some beastman slaves are too big for normal humans, so it's legally required in most places for slave-owners with larger slaves to hire an ogre supervisor called a bulldozer.

>> No.48595843

>>48593732
I've thought this over a bit and thought I'd expand on some things and make a few adjustments because I originally came up with the concept while taking a shit:

>Empire
Has evolved into a unified constitutional monarchy, with the current sovereign being Luitpold IV. Most of nation's power is held by Parliament, with the current Prime Minister being not-Otto von Bismarck.

>Bretonnia
Having listened to the various comments made in response to the original concept, I'll return them to a cavalry focus. The shock and melee cav that we all know and love is now augmented by a bunch of gun cav and light but highly mobile horse-towed artillery. I'm still keeping the peasant revolt idea, which means they're still a French Empire-esque monarchy led by Eugenie I, the granddaughter of not-Napoleon.

>Marienburg
The richest nation in the Old World with the second-biggest colonial empire, their army is mainly made up of mercenaries and native troops.

>Kislev
They're now the defense- and artillery-focused faction. Nothing has changed politically.

>Tilea/Estalia/Nippon/Cathay/Ind
Nothing has changed from the original version.

And now onto a few of the non-human factions:

>Dwarfs
Really have only made progress with helicopters technologically due to tradition, and for the same reasons their tactics are rather outdated.

>Vampire Counts
I don't have a fucking clue what to do with them, how do you bring spooky skellies into the 19th century? I guess you could just make their army up of vampires, having small but incredibly good units that are great at both melee and ranged combat.

>Skaven
Literally the same thing.

>Greenskins
More silly bullshit like Gatling guns made up of surplus muskets the Empire left in warehouses and forgot about a century ago. Also rocket goblins.

>> No.48595940
File: 139 KB, 752x1063, 1460997954594.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48595940

What happens to elves, i would imagine asrai becoming not!irish and immigrating to new world.

>> No.48596004
File: 261 KB, 1600x1200, Dracula-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48596004

>>48595843
>>Vampire Counts
>I don't have a fucking clue what to do with them, how do you bring spooky skellies into the 19th century? I guess you could just make their army up of vampires, having small but incredibly good units that are great at both melee and ranged combat.
Maybe they took over Kislev. Maybe they no longer have a military force and just do like pic related.

>> No.48596031

>>48592393

This, petty much all of not-America is already occupied by civilizations that can crush a serious attempt at colonization from the Old World: The north half is filled with dark eves and warriors of chaos, and in the south, Lizardmen would flip their shit and brng forth their doomsday devices (read: Kroak) if there was a serious human invasion on top of the Skaven bullcrap they're dealing with already.

>> No.48596090

>>48596004
Them taking over somewhere is what I was originally going to go with, but wouldn't it conflict a bit with what the Lahmians are supposed to be doing?

>> No.48596201

>>48596090
The Lahmians maybe, but they're not the only bloodline.

>> No.48596238

>>48595843
> I'll return them to a cavalry focus
Their Cuirassier units would be cavalry with bullet resistant armor and would be able to attack on the move or engage in melee; their dragoon unit would be this high mobility gunline that might have dismount capability.

Good at horses goes beyond good horsemanship, like the fast moving artillery you mentioned. Overall new Bretonnia is going to embody what made Napoleon so successful, which is the power of logistics and strategic mobility.

>Revolution vs non-revolution
I think an Important element would be how the rebellion gave way to Chaos (maybe literally, Ill get to that later) where the nobility suffered but ended with Napoleon becoming an Emperor who brought about new styles of oppression to his people and ascended new nobility to replace the old. There was a revolution, but like most it gave minor concessions under the guise of major change.

>> No.48596278

>>48596031
Dark Elves and Chaos have to devote too much resources to stalemate each other, faced with the possibility of the other side gaining an advantage if they focus on the colonies they cede the poorly defensible regions of their territory to the Old Worlders out of practicality. The new colonies are located far enough away from the Lizardmen that they don't really care that much and it offers them an opportunity to destabilize the Dark Elves and Chaos.

There you go, not that hard.

>> No.48596321

>>48596278
Is the west side of the New World inhabited by the Dark Elves? If not then this idea works. >>48595185
>The Empire and Bretonnia tried setting up colonies in the New World, but the Dark Elves destroyed them. They moved west over the mountains and became elf-hunting cowboys. Whenever a dark elf band rolls into town and takes over a movie references helps the locals fight them off. Also brought beastmen with them, but a lot of them escaped and became Indians.

>> No.48596369

>>48596201
I meant that the Von Carsteins taking over Kislev would sort of conflict with the Lahmians role of being Warhammer's Illuminati.

The easiest option would be just locking the Carsteins and Lahmians in a shadow war over controlling the various governments of the Old World.

>> No.48596417

>>48596238
My major interest in this concept is doing Chaos some fucking justice before we turn them into retro 40KAYOS while exploring the philosophy that exists in this age. I suspect everyone will hate my ideas so feel free to nope them.

Chaos is no longer seen as this existential threat to life its self, but rather as a starkly anarcho nihilistic alternative to civilization and all of the other stuff Chaos wants to destroy. Instead of endlessly screeching for destruction it whispers into the ears of the helpless and tell them that civilization exists only to weaken man and hide the freedom of Chaos to them. Chaos is still here to wreck everyone shit, but it also promises that you as an individual will have a freer and more fair life in the wreckage.

In the age of 'rationality and reason' Chaos assumes new forms, it has gone from a corruption of spirit to the poisoning of the mind, for dark voices are now joined by philosophers who empower oblivion by merely discussing it. No longer is one turned by the machinations of evil, but also by reading of these ideologies with a sound mind. As Nietzsche claimed God was Dead and wrote of Perspectivism, the great minds who have accepted Chaos claim Sigmar is no more and that evil is in the eye of the beholder.

In practice, Chaos goes from the great horde Ala the huns to being an almost humanitarian/classically inspired sect that expresses its self in the form of peasant revolts or by passive ideas that undermine the empire. Just as the rights of man and liberal thinking was a threat to the conservative monarchies of the old world, it is in this one. Though like anarchists of the 19th century they bomb, raid, and devastate too much to be seen as 'the good guys.'

>> No.48596477

>>48596369
>I meant that the Von Carsteins taking over Kislev would sort of conflict with the Lahmians role of being Warhammer's Illuminati.
Fuck the Lahmians, I want to make hemophilia puns.

>> No.48596499

>>48596321
The problem is that you'd have refugees crossing Dark Elf lands and that'd unlikely leave enough people to have a stable population. Looking at the world map it might be easier to have them land south of Naggaroth then head west. Also beastmen already exist in the New World apparently.

>> No.48596522

>>48596417
Oh, and the last idea is they'd obviously be the Luddites smashing the machines. If anything industrialization would be at much greater risk of wiping out Chaos with endless production of very-unchaotic interchangeable parts and the creation of centralized armies.

>> No.48596536

>>48596477
Vampires are sterile senpai.

>> No.48596606
File: 153 KB, 630x630, Not if we're both screaming.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48596606

>>48596499
>The problem is that you'd have refugees crossing Dark Elf lands and that'd unlikely leave enough people to have a stable population. Looking at the world map it might be easier to have them land south of Naggaroth then head west
They could inhabit what would be the Louisiana Purchase. Have a massive port defended by great ironclads.

>>48596536
I never said I wanted babies.

>> No.48596619

>>48594669
So Foot Guards and Curaiseers with ward saves.

>> No.48596657

>>48595734
I like the idea of a large population of Ogres living in the Empire.

>> No.48596697

>>48595843
That's why I merged VC with Empire. It's kind of teased in the VC army books that Neferata is moving to take over so it makes sense that the vampires have enough political influence that necromancers raise zombies and skeletons to fight the enemies of the empire. Just treat them like skavenslaves, disposable chaff that holds the enemy while the troops shoot.

>> No.48596759

>>48596417
>>48596522
Two worlds for you: Chaos Romanticism.

Also you need to think about how Chaos would change in turn with the changing culture. The servant of Khorne is no longer the rampaging warrior, strong of flesh and steel, it's the efficient and clever quartermaster keeping an army in bullets, food, and pay. The Slaaneshi cultist is no longer the depraved lord with a dungeon full of victims, it's the penniless rake who seduces wayward daughters for their inheritance. Nurgle is no longer found in the leper colonies, but in the opium dens and sanitariums. The voice of Tzeentch no longer whispers to the mage in his studies, but shouts from the printing press of the jingoist.

>> No.48596805

>>48596238
>I think an Important element would be how the rebellion gave way to Chaos (maybe literally, Ill get to that later) where the nobility suffered but ended with Napoleon becoming an Emperor who brought about new styles of oppression to his people and ascended new nobility to replace the old. There was a revolution, but like most it gave minor concessions under the guise of major change.

I was planning on basing the reign of Eugenie on the Second French Empire except more competent. As for the character herself I'm going to go at it from the "Older sibling(s) who were expected to succeed to the throne died and now you have to take the job despite not being groomed for it at all" angle.

Luitpold IV would be Karl Franz meets Wilhelm II, except with the latter's aggressive foreign policy kicked up a notch.

>> No.48597004

>>48596697
You could have a split between the older VCs and the more modern ones, with the newer VCs being far more attached to home and country. So while Vlad Nosferatu is all about ruling over a populace of frightened peasants from a crumbling castle, Fritz von Blutwurst, Eternal Count of Lower Doomlandia, is leading a zombie forlorn hope for Sigmar, the Empire, and Emperor Karl.

>> No.48597056

>>48597004
Well Vampires generally need something to fixate on so they don't go insane. Maybe super patriotic Murican Vampires from Lustrian colonies?

>> No.48597065

>>48597056
They transform into eagles instead of bats and fight for Freedom, both political and from death

>> No.48597104

>>48597056
I think it best to not have a direct America analogue in this case. A confederation of independent territories sitting uneasy amid colonies and protectorates gives more options. Plus you could bring a bunch of conspiracy shit into play between the VCs, Chaos, the Dark Elves, Lizardmen, and Skaven.

>> No.48597267

>>48596759
>ILikeIt.thor
Though on Khorne's characterization I'd probably say he's the brave soldier who charges into hopeless odds to seek a heroic and tragic death to fit the romanticism angle. For Nurgle, I feel like things like inoculation and sanitation would play into his hands, the great plagues are less devastating but because those who survived and gain immunity (especially asymptomatic carriers) are marked by nurgle in their own way. Sanitation, even washing your hands, is a sort of sacrifice of filth to Nurgle.

The purpose is that populations that deal with disease, get new ones via trade, and all the other things that made IRL Europe a disease-hole make them excellent carriers. Just like how the Spaniards spread disease to the New World that killed millions, what seems to be mercy for some can actually lead to death for countless more. Nurgle is the god of disease, and he hedged his bets by also being the god of immunity.

>Maybe super patriotic Murican Vampires from Lustrian colonies?
I was actually waiting to float the idea that with the above ideas, America is a lost Imperial Colony overcome by Chaos. Though with their founding political elite taking on demi-god status and definitely more Jefferson "live free on your farm and slaves you own" and less "lets make a national bank" Madison. They're far from becoming a world power, but they're dangerously competent enough that others want to learn by their example. The states would hate eachother and would lack a federal government, perfect for Chaos IMO.

Vampire Counts I see following a Van Hellsing type alliance of Vampires with mad scientists to create the next generation of undead. Frankenstein abominations that take rifle fire yet are smart enough to hate their makers, and undead creatures fused with mechanical components. Skeletons/zombies are now rather excellent line infantry, marching and loading slowly but never retreating and taking many more shots than the living.

>> No.48597331

>>48597104
You know you want Freedom! Vamps

And it works perfectly, a burgeoning industrial power built on the backs of (undead) slaves and downtrodden proles with a great plutocracy of corrupt decadent rulers who could care less about those who were sacrificed for their fortunes.

Come on. The industrialists are bleeding the poor dry. This shit writes itself. And the vamp colony in Lustria is the most successful one.

>> No.48597416

>>48597267
>>48597331
Why not all the above. If we assume that there's never any fucking crossover between the factions we're not really inventing as much as re texturing WFB.

Vampire planters are common enough that the trope isn't particularly too new to fail or too worn out; and Chaos as freedom would add some more flavor so its not a carbon copy of the old world VCs.

>> No.48597469

>>48597331
My issue isn't with the Freedom Vamps, its with a direct America analogue. Look up the actual functioning of America under the Articles of Confederation or how the CSA worked out as a government. A dysfunctional mess of competing interests and inefficiency. And the colonies and protectorates are supposed to represent Mexico, the Caribbean, and Canada to some extent.

>>48597267
I'd think that more Slaaneshi that Khorne, but really you'd have a ton of overlap. Your peerless warrior is the spoiled son of nobility with a military academy education, a drinking habit, extensive gambling debts, a wife, a mistress, another mistress, and a custom uniform that requires two aide-de-camps to help him get dressed. He's also buggering one of his aide-de-camps.

>> No.48597590

>>48597469
>CSA worked out as a government.
The Planter as the new nobility element I think would play an important role regardless, as would the division of the states.

>More Chaos stuff
Agreed, in general I think newer Khorne would be the type who could calmly command artillery batteries and get just as much satisfaction watching shells tear through lines of infantry.

I guess the question is how Chaos would manifest in say, a table top scenario. I see them being the peasants who guillotine the nobility and the Clerics, while agents of a Robespierre-like character endlessly purge.

Like Chaos in the old world, it'd be less based on hard boarders as much as growing internal threat. There'd be Cities in active rebellion I'd imagine to keep the war going as much as we needed to. Like if Paris stayed a commune for years and years and came out whenever someone wanted to adopt their ideology.

>> No.48597616

>>48597469
Yeah but if we are doing 19th rather than 18th century we can skip the bullshit with the squabbling over currency and the government being unable to pay for shit and go straight to the gilded age

>> No.48597657

>>48597590
I like the idea of Cultist armies. Basically rabble combined with defectors and powerful Daemons available as rares and specials. Maybe some sort of chosen analogue at the high end but lacking the rank and file chaos warriors. Although that sounds a bit too much like CSM. Maybe only characters would get chaos gifts?

>> No.48597727

>>48597657
I actually really like the idea of chaos being an army of sycophants and followers being lead by these larger than life figures. Really captures the idea of revolutionaries

>> No.48597742

>>48597590
That'd certainly work for Tzeentch. For Nurgle you could flip it, it's the doctors and philosophers of health testing out whatever theories come to mind to cure disease, remedy ailments, and treat the insane. You could even add in the public moralizers.

>>48597616
I really have no idea exactly when we're setting this, it's all vaguely late 1600s through early 1800s to me.

>> No.48597800

>>48597742
>I really have no idea exactly when we're setting this, it's all vaguely late 1600s through early 1800s to me.

I'm basing my thing off of a mish-mash of the entire 19th century post-Congress of Vienna.

>> No.48597837
File: 113 KB, 288x333, Rat.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48597837

>>48574395
>World War 1 Skaven
Oh hell yes.

>> No.48597871
File: 407 KB, 750x493, Mob.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48597871

>>48597657
>>48597727

>I like the idea of Cultist armies.
Cultists who may think they're actually doing away with superstition would be interesting in their own right as well. Said cultists may have a more or less literal view of the Gods, but overall they're seeking to destroy what they see as oppression; doesn't make them any less awful when they burn down the libraries and so on and so forth.

>sycophants and followers being lead by these larger than life figures
I think we're on the same track, the angry brutal masses and the calm charismatic leaders that know exactly what to say.

>>48597742
Tzeentch would also be the great spymaster, now that we're progressing towards an era where espionage matters more.

>>48597800
Anachronism is good, if anything I could see a couple old WFB things popping up once in a while.

>>48597837
I guess the assumption is that Skaven being ahead now due to weird tech would lead to them adopting industrialization? I guess. The WW1 element implies there'd be lots of artillery and massed assaults. Rat infiltrators with grenades and clubs are my initial idea for that.

>> No.48597883

>>48597800
I think post-Congress of Vienna locks out too much interesting stuff on the European continent. I'm going to the 1830s.

>> No.48597904

>>48597883
Its not like WFB can be tied to a single decade in history so I feel like we can be flexible enough to have an army of repeater using line infantry and have some pike and shotte elements co existing.

>> No.48597926

>>48592419
>Powdered Beards
Drawfags! Stat!

>> No.48597934

>>48597883
>post congress of vienna

Anon this is set in the warhammer world, a place which features ancient egyptian chariots, high medieval french knights, vikings, and 16th century halberdiers

>> No.48598018

>>48597871
Putting the Skaven at WWI tech levels would give them too much of an advantage, I say Franco-Prussian War tech level with some of the batshit WWI prototype stuff.

>> No.48598035

Anyways I'm focusing mostly on Bretonnia, the Empire, Marienburg, Kislev, as well as Tilea and/or Estalia in that order. I already have leaders down for two of them and am looking for a historical figure to base Marienburg off of.

Also, Gatling (Replace this with generic French inventor name) guns for Bretonnia. Not as good as the Empire's Maxim (Replace this with generic German inventor name) guns but they can be pulled by horses.

>> No.48598058

>>48598018
I think a good way to deal with the Skaven is to have them recovering from a massive civil war. The majority of their armies are slaves supported by rare and extremely powerful mad science creations.

>> No.48598097
File: 61 KB, 600x450, Mitrailleuse_front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48598097

>>48598018
I agree that in terms of raw tech its ahead, but I can also see how there's more than a few elements that kind of match how they'd fight.

Trenches into tunnels, their warp fire thrower (even operated by two rats like in ww1) and I can see them getting into chemical warfare (once again, likely derived from warp stone)

Not full on ww1, but lots of meat walling and getting special weapons into position. Oh and shelling your own men of course.

>>48598035
Instead of Gatling for French give them Mitrailleuses, perfect for being rather french and very underrated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrailleuse

And I'll take your lack of complaint or interest of Chaos that I should keep going in that direction?

>> No.48598150

>>48598058
Could also have the Skaven broken into separate "countries" each controlled by a different Clan with the New World being full of Skaven who just said "I'm done with this shit."

South American Commie Skaven.

>> No.48598168

>>48598150
Admittedly I'm a dark elf player but that seems pretty counter to everything the Skaven are about.

>> No.48598211
File: 585 KB, 904x1038, skaven_globadier_by_emiljart-d7jp7rm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48598211

>>48598018
What if we just have them recreate ww1 in the Underempire, they'll be too busy to deal with the surface? The surface things the skaven menace is gone, all while a war of massive proportions is raging between different clan-factions beneath their feet.

>> No.48598321

>>48598168
Going with the idea that the Skaven have been torn apart by what are essentially ethnic conflicts or WWI, Commie Skaven make sense as a reaction to their culture disintegrating. Plus, like real life communism, it'd rapidly turn into an authoritarian, bureaucratic, police state full of paranoia, internal power plays, and a privileged elite living in luxury and powering over a downtrodden, backstabbing populace. Business as usual for the Skaven.

>>48598211
You'd still need the occasional Belgium Invasion equivalent to keep things interesting.

>> No.48598400

>>48598321
I'm fine with leaving Skaven alone but going full on Soviet Union is way the fuck too far out of scale m8. Thats 20s/30s, WW1 was already a bit of a stretch.

All in all forcing them into that niche leaves the original skaven tropes mostly untouched.

>> No.48598449

>>48598097
>And I'll take your lack of complaint or interest of Chaos that I should keep going in that direction?

Sure, your version actually reminds me a bit of how Chaos is portrayed in Beasts in Velvet, which I like. Speaking of which, the guy who wrote the book also wrote another series which has shape-shifting (of the bat variety) vampires enhanced by science and having machine gun chest rigs. Warhammer has shape-shifting vamps IIRC but hasn't really done anything with them. Food for thought.


Anyways, I'm off to bed.

>> No.48598466

>>48598400
Communist Manifesto was published in 1848. I don't mean go full Soviet Union on them, but playing on the theme that communism simply recreates the conditions the lead to its installment.

>> No.48598577

>>48598466
Fair enough, maybe I'm being defensive because I'm already taking some communist-y elements into the new Chaos, which I've quite literally described with almost entirely French Revolution terminology. I'm keeping Chaos in that direction, and I suppose if want to keep working on that skaven direction you are free to do so.

I would maybe see what other skaven players would think.

>> No.48598641

>>48598577
Communism has the same underpinnings as what you talked about so some overlap is inevitable. I think the main difference is that Chaos, by its nature, is always more individualistic.

>> No.48599087

>>48573120
ruined cities in the far north are mentioned by the fluff consistently, given how fucked up time flow is it;s not far fetched.

>> No.48599841

Bumping

>> No.48600844

>>48592393
>Perhaos beastmen could be enslaved, or Undead are used as a cheap source of manpower? That would be the logical extensions of Necromancy and the growth of industry.

Given that Beastmen are unconquerable and untamable monsters, and Undead/Necromancy is literal soul-destroying evil, no it's not. Nothing logical at all about that.

>> No.48601085

The whole setting could take place post end times chaos invasion and now the scattered norscan tribes have settled in the south and have been buying weapons from various cities

Think of them like mandelorians

>> No.48601337

Both skaven and chaos dwarfs have reached ww1 levels of technology and are both locked in a huge war with each other

>> No.48601692

>>48601085
I don't understand how this fits in a 19th century context.

>> No.48601738

>>48600844
>Given that Beastmen are unconquerable and untamable monsters, and Undead/Necromancy is literal soul-destroying evil, no it's not. Nothing logical at all about that.
>Being this uncreative in a hypothetical.

At the very least, human mutants could be turned into a slave-caste rather than being allowed to join Beastman herds.

As for Undead/Necromancy being soul-destroying evil, we have several instances of undead characters being, if not good, at least pragmatic.

Genevieve and Richter Kreuger come to mind.

>> No.48601747

>>48600844
So you're saying necromancy fits the Industrial Revolution perfectly.

As for Beastmen, who cares, the idea of plantations and mines being worked by Beastmen against their will as chattel while their free brethren fight for their liberty is cool and very 19th century.

>> No.48601812

>>48598211
I like this. Maybe occasionally there's a tunnel collapse and Tommy rats spill out.

>> No.48601836

>>48598097
I still think that a few hundred years before a Norscan empire managed to form using contemporary technology, because Sweden.

>> No.48602068

>ITT: Americans use Wikipedia on the history of Europe to butcher the Old World.

There comes a point when you're confusing Bretonnia, an archtype of Le morte'D Arthur with ACTUAL FRANCE and suddenly forgetting that the setting has magic armor that makes bullets worthless.

>> No.48602086

>>48601747
It's also fucking retarded, because Beastmen are literally untamable by their very nature as CHILDREN OF CHAOS

>> No.48602146

>19th century Warhammer

Admit it, this is an excuse to try and shoehorn in America.

>> No.48602283

>>48602086
And Chaos is now the Enlightenment. Problem solved!

>> No.48602294

>>48602146
Surprisingly, no.

>> No.48602521

>>48602068
We may be trying to marry Warhammer and history too much, rather than taking a liberal stance and painting with broad strokes.

>> No.48604940

bumping for Sigmar

>> No.48605100

>>48593266
>The skaven would be too scared to go after the Empire
Skaven out number the empire and are at an equal if not greater technology level.
I'm guessing you are a long time empire player.

>> No.48606275

>>48605100
>Skaven out number the empire and are at an equal if not greater technology level.
The Empire figured out mousetraps.

>> No.48606386

one thing I just wanna contribute. The 18th century was a time of a rising, intellectually stimulated middle and non-aristocratic upper class, combined with the slow decline of monarchism. What we should see in the Old World is the rise of elected governments and ministers becoming the major players while the local monarchs slowly decline into purely ceremonial roles, or a guillotine.

>> No.48607061
File: 153 KB, 347x409, 1444235131441.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48607061

>>48606275
>mousetraps
>not just throwing grenades down the sewer

>> No.48607138
File: 165 KB, 500x500, Thumbs up.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48607138

>>48607061
I like the way you think.

>> No.48607472

>>48607061
>Using normal grenades
>Not grenades filled with poison gas

>> No.48607579
File: 117 KB, 444x440, Jesus Christ how horrifying.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48607579

>>48607472
>Poison anything against Skaven unless you're talking about chemical weapons that burn the skin and cleanse the lungs of life

>> No.48608596

>>48602521
This. Very much this.

Direct parallels like throwing in a communist manifesto skaven or beastman slave plantations are simply holding up a funhouse mirror to history rather than working with what fits the setting.

>> No.48608775
File: 143 KB, 1077x800, Parade_1894.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48608775

>>48608596
Adding to what you're saying, some inspiration from history is fine, such as the advancement of the Empire into Space-Prussia/German Empire, which is pretty cool but doesn't detract from their theme. Some, like Bretonnia becoming the Fantasy French Empire, less so Although I think a fusion of canonical Bretonnia and 18th/19th-century France would be cool.

I do like the idea of beastman slaves though partly because it was my idea, and also a Skaven Great War boiling beneath the Earth to explain why Skaven aren't overrunning the world.

>> No.48609195

>>48593732
>>48595843
you dopey shit, marienburg is analogous to the fucking hanseatic league, making it into quasi-britain makes no fucking sense

>> No.48609390

>>48609195
Warhammer =/= real life anon. Marienburg is barely elaborated upon in the lore anyways so I can do whatever I want with them.

I made them a colonial power because that's what the Dutch did and I find that having an army based largely on colonial troops and mercenaries is an interesting idea for the setting.

>> No.48609494

>>48609390
ok, that's valid, but remember that since they're fundamentally a trade-focused city-state-structured thing, any colonial shit they do will be based on trade posts rather than directly controlling large amounts of territory/population since they wouldn't logically have the population to actually colonise land per se, relying more on indirect and semi-direct governance systems

also muh spices, muh cash crops, muh limited centralisation and reform capacity due to high patrician/merchant-class influence over government dooming the state long-term

>> No.48609631

>>48609494
My plan is for them to have an East India Company analogue doing all the colonization. Their colonies in Ind would also be governed rather indirectly, with most of the troops being natives recruited with money.

>> No.48610206

>>48608775
Beastman slaves is a very uphill battle to argue for given how insanely dangerous beastmen are. It's not like enslaving other humans, those things really are out to just murderfuck everything in the name of whatever chaos deity they feel like.

>> No.48610253

>>48585533

Dude, massed ranks of infantry had nothing to do with honour or chivalry lol, nor did the uniforms.

People weren't stupid. The guns were fairly inaccurate, as you mentioned - so everyone just firing them off whenever in skirmisher formation would have been ineffective without rifles, which were expensive and rare. If you group your musketmen close together and firing in time, it makes them a more effective wall of death.

Most uniforms were designed with colour based on what was cheap, like the British redcoats. Since the guns produced so much smoke, and you needed big blocks of guys moving together, trying to camouflage was pointless.

This was all what was most effective, not "civilized" or "honourable".

>> No.48610586
File: 155 KB, 600x444, Ironclad is OP, US plz nerf.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48610586

>>48610206
Eh, oh well. Still want cowboys and fantasy Louisiana in the New World though. I just like the idea of a port city far from Bretonnia protected by massive ironclad warships. Not a carbon copy of America or the Civil War, just a little tip of the kepi.

>> No.48610765

>>48610206
>Most uniforms were designed with colour based on what was cheap, like the British redcoats. Since the guns produced so much smoke, and you needed big blocks of guys moving together, trying to camouflage was pointless.

To add onto to this, brightly colored uniforms made it easy to identify who was who when the battlefield was literally covered in smoke. If everybody wore camouflage there would be a ridiculous amount of friendly fire and generals would have no idea which troops were theirs.

>> No.48611197

>>48610586
And here we come to the crux of it

>I WANT AMERICANS IN WARHAMMER

Stop it, it's pathetic.

>> No.48611225
File: 159 KB, 700x609, Tips fedora.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48611225

>>48611197
That's not really a sound rebuttal, but whatever.

>> No.48611237

>>48611197
>I WANT AMERICANS IN WARHAMMER
But they are called druchii.

>> No.48611285

>>48611225
The charm of Warhammer is this large savage world where death sits in the forests and the mountains, wanting to pick clean the bones of man. Men thrive because they have had steel and valor to cut out their Empires, but darkness still dwells in the deepest forests.

You want to effectively destroy all of that because you have some boner with early 19th century.

Where Europe was largely tamed and mystery and myth were buried under Industry and regiment.

I mean fuck, half of you morons even forgot Bretonnia is BRITAIN AND FRANCE together.

You know their King is literally "king Louis the Lionheart" and His heraldry is the heraldry of England and France.

>> No.48611349
File: 1.02 MB, 325x203, There is no need to be upset.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48611349

>>48611285
Somebody needs a hug. Or depression meds.

>> No.48611368

>>48611349
Not at all, I'm just here to point out you're not making a Warhammer setting, you're just recreating History and pretending it's worth shit.

I mean people in this thread literally started talking like Beastmen were black people and that a Napoleon figure would automatically rise out of Bretonnia.

>> No.48611451

>>48611368
>Not at all, I'm just here to point out you're not making a Warhammer setting, you're just recreating History and pretending it's worth shit.
That's what I said, minus the pretending it's worth shit part.

>I mean people in this thread literally started talking like Beastmen were black people and that a Napoleon figure would automatically rise out of Bretonnia.
That was a joke.

>> No.48611462

>>48611368
You still need a hug though.

>> No.48611504

>>48611451
No it's wasn't.

Here, you want your 19th century Warhammer world?

NOTHING CHANGES

Orcs still have muscles and numbers to overwhelm gunlines.

Chaos Hordes survive the hail of gunshot to butcher people

Beastmen raid and pillage the world

Gromril and Runic hammer hold the line

Lance and the blessing of the lady win the day

It stays the same because that's what each faction has to be effective.

What did you honestly want from this? Human wank? Because that's literally all I see.

>> No.48611532

The Empire would basically be like the British empire, or the Prussians, or Austrians, or French. Basically the vanilla 18th century army with line infantry, skirmishers, cavalry.

You guys seem to have thought of solid ideas for the rest, but for orcs, I'd love to see them be like Scottish highlanders. Divided into clans, mostly subjugated by The Empire and kept contained, but can lead to large wars of rebellion if rallied by charismatic leaders. Kilts are a must. Still use swords and shields alongside muskets and pistols.

Dwarves could go more into the whole Elizabethan steam punk industrial revolution thing.

Wood elves would just be like native Americans. Still using horses and guerilla tactics, but take well to using guns.

High elves and dark elves, who the hell knows.

Chaos could basically be the same honestly. I see no problem with lines of redcoats firing well-drilled volleys of musket fire into hordes of beastmen, bandits, mutants, etc.

>> No.48611581

>>48611532
It's these kinds of posts that make me so fucking annoyed.

You know literally nothing about the Warhammer universe do you?

I mean you called Warriors of chaos bandits for fuck sake.

And you think Wood Elves would use guns EVER when they barely use steel.

>> No.48611603

>>48611504
I'm beginning to suspect you're autistic.

>>48611532
This is just retarded.

>> No.48611611

>>48611504
>No it's wasn't.
Yeah it was. I was the one who made it.

>> No.48611617

>>48611603
>Autistic

>For knowing the setting

Dwarves have had matchlock rifles for ages and they still use shieldwall tactics because you can't do 19th century formations when a thousand goblins pile up your asshole.

>> No.48611708

>>48611285

You dolt, what we want from Warhammer is a future.

We want a setting that can grow, thrive and change. It shouldn't stay stagnant and unyielding. The events in the Old World should mold and direct the growth of the setting, which is something we are exploring here.

The Warhammer setting as we know it now certainly exists in the state you describe, but it hasn't always and it can't stay that way forever.

The setting has a past, and we are looking to give it a future.

>> No.48611754
File: 48 KB, 235x251, Madoka.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48611754

>>48611617
This kind of stubbornness and refusal to accept viewpoints different from yours is a sure sign of autism. Since you have also refused hugs you show a lack of empathy, another sign of autism.

Confirmed for autistic.

>> No.48611791

>>48611708
>We want a setting that can thrive and grow
>Orcs and Beastmen driven out of the forests
>Everyone is now using guns and for some reason allegories for different places.
>Only things people even talk about are Humans who are X version of Y country in real life

You want Warhammer Historical. They literally have that. or did.

>> No.48611950

>>48611791

Eh, I'm not particularly agreeing with all the view points on where the Warhammer world could grow too - personally I prefer the idea of the Druchii exploring the Dark Beneath The World and setting up shop there while the Skaven launching some sort of space program that the Dwarfs are desperately fighting against and the Orcs try and take the fight to the Warp Gates.

But the point is, discussion is key. You might not agree with what is being discussed, but at least fucking contribute. Sperging out "YOU'RE DOING WARHAMMER WRONG" gets you nowhere.

If you disagree, that's cool. But offer what you think would actually happen.

Saying everything stays the same forever is retarded, and we're having this discussion to avoid that.

>> No.48612015

>>48611950
And your discussion went south and keeps going south.

All you guys care about is transplanting some kind of Real life scenario into Fantasy.

>> No.48612033
File: 413 KB, 1024x1330, pic498280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612033

>>48609390
>Marienburg is barely elaborated upon in the lore anyways

It got a fucking sourcebook.

Barely elaborated my ass.

>> No.48612104

>>48612015
>All you guys care about is transplanting some kind of Real life scenario into Fantasy.

I'm transplanting real life inspired stuff into the Old World because that's what the human nations already are.

>> No.48612135

>>48612104
Yes, but they are not LITERALLY those nations.

Like the fucking Napoleon idea.

>> No.48612165

>>48612135
>Yes, but they are not LITERALLY those nations.

The Empire is the Holy Roman Empire. They are literally the exact same thing except one has magic and tanks.

>> No.48612202

>>48572017
People seem to be struggling to find what the VC would do in the wake of this.
It's simple.
They would be the real biggest proponents of massed infantry volleys.
As people have repeatedly pointed out, musket volley isn't about breaking the enemy, it's about breaking their morale.
Who better to carry a musket than a skele? They don't need accuracy or fine coordination like bows do. They move eerily together in blocks and lines of formation. It's even classic Carstein. The only reply you get to that is to try and do exactly the same, but better. You can't charge through the killing field, you can't break and run. So you take the high ground, and try to hold out, and your men are dying all around you, and a little ways off the Carstein's set up their command tent and watch the slaughter unfold and wait for the mortals to break, while sipping tipples and snacking as though it is all the prelude to a little hunting party. which it is

>> No.48612226

>>48612165
Ah yes, I forgot the Holy Roman Empire was founded by a Conan the Barbarian Expy and used a magical hammer forged by dwarves to cast down the legions of evil.

>> No.48612245

>>48612226
So you're saying it's okay to consider context unless it's an idea you don't like.

Definitely autistic.

>> No.48612284

>>48612226
You do realize that Sigmar is also a Charlemagne expy, right?

>> No.48612323
File: 52 KB, 270x649, SigmarEmperor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612323

>>48612245
No, what I am saying is something can be inspired by something and not literally be a parallel to it at all times.

Just because there was a Napoleon doesn't man Not-Napoleon MUST show up in Bretonnia.

Especially considering Bretonnians are one part French, one part England.

>>48612284
>Doesn't make an order of paladins
>Doesn't drive out other faiths than his
>Broods on a throne before leaving into the wilderness
>Literally sat as a Barbarian King atop his Kingdom

He's an Expy for Charlemagne in the most loosest of senses.

>> No.48612349
File: 1000 KB, 500x246, Social Anxiety.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612349

>>48612323
>No, what I am saying is something can be inspired by something and not literally be a parallel to it at all times.
>Just because there was a Napoleon doesn't man Not-Napoleon MUST show up in Bretonnia.
>Especially considering Bretonnians are one part French, one part England.
I'm confused, are you saying this is a bad concept or are you saying it's a good concept that's being poorly executed?

>> No.48612374

>>48572017
Personal armor would still be around to some extent since plenty of races like Orkz wouldn't really go to an 18th century technological level. That and because there's shit like Gromil armor (sp?).

>> No.48612387

>>48612349
It's a pisspoor concept that ignores the object that is Bretonnia, and just slathers an ill informed idea upon it assuming Bretonnia is just 100% Fantasy France.

>> No.48612414

>>48612323
>>Doesn't drive out other faiths than his

He literally committed a Warhammer version of the Verden massacre.

>>48612323
>Just because there was a Napoleon doesn't man Not-Napoleon MUST show up in Bretonnia.

He's inspired by Napoleon in the same way Sigmar is inspired by Charlemagne: somewhat loosely.

He's a military genius who leads a revolt, taking control of Bretonnia and establishing a much more centralized government. Unlike Napoleon, he is never deposed and doesn't conquer most of the Old World.

>> No.48612424

>>48612387
I meant the concept of Warhammer advancing to the 18th/19th Century. Bretpoleon and Brevolution are silly ideas. Cowboys aren't though. Cowboys never are.

>> No.48612476

>>48612015

And you're a shitposter. At least these guys are developing something.

>>48612202

Question: How effective would mass musket/rifle fire be against an army of skeletons? I mean, they don't have any flesh/muscle/organs to rupture, so you're only really looking at pure bone breakage.

Would it be more effective to just rush a gunline with a wall of skeletons, knowing that the enemy fire ain't going to do shit for morale?

>> No.48612494

>>48612414
>He literally committed a Warhammer version of the Verden massacre.

Sigmar was crowned by a priest of Ulric. Ulric and Taal Worship is not only in the open but have shrines and temples right alongside Sigmar.

It was the church of Sigmar that caused shit.

>He's a military genius who leads a revolt, taking control of Bretonnia and establishing a much more centralized government. Unlike Napoleon, he is never deposed and doesn't conquer most of the Old World.

So he literally demolishes the identity of Bretonnia for your pathetic expy for MUH FRENCH EMPIRE

Yeah, no.

Fuck off and go back to Total War:Warhammer you fucking turd.

>>48612476
He's developing nothing, all he wants is his real world with humans as the main characters.

Look how the namefag literaly did NOTHING for any other faction, he doesn't even understand them.

>> No.48612533

>>48612414
>taking control of Bretonnia

So what happens with The Green Knight and the Lady in the Lake? Wouldn't they have been opposed to the revolt in the first place?

Do they lead a magical resistance against the new military junta that's taken over Bretonnia?

>> No.48612544

I think one thing to keep in mind is that the Warhammer setting is in its own 15-17th century stasis instead of a conventional medieval stasis.

WFRP/WHFB seems to already have pepperboxes and breechloading firearms in very limited numbers too, and flintlocks (or at least snaplocks) also exist in the setting.

I think it's more of a manner of infrastructure and society catching up to the innovations they have for a more "18th century" setting.

>> No.48612574

>>48612533
Better yet, what happens now?

The Entire government was made up of Lords and lesser nobles.

You get rid of them and suddenly you have a nation of LITERAL INBREDS sitting around waiting for the Empire to roll them over.

Or did you forget the only thing stopping the Empire Rolling Bret over is the Empire really cannot handle huge castles filled with flying heavy Cavalry.

>> No.48612612

>>48612494
>Look how the namefag literaly did NOTHING for any other faction, he doesn't even understand them.

Then help him, you fuckwit.

Look at >>48612533
>So what happens with The Green Knight and the Lady in the Lake?

Ask question that expand on the ideas, blend it into the setting. Don't be a useless cockwaffle and do nothing but bitch, ask questions, extrapolate answers and lead on from there.

For example - how does not!Napoleon get the munitions and funding to back a revolt? That doesn't happen overnight. Is someone making a powerplay? Who stands to gain from Bretonnia being in civil revolt? Was it the Druchii, trying to upset the status quo with the Wood Elves bitchboys?

How do the Elves respond? Are they aware of the interference? Is it all just a Chaos plot to install a cultist as the leader of a fledgling nation?

ASK QUESTIONS AND EXPAND.

IT'S YES-AND, NOT NO-BUT.

Jesus, you are a shit.

>> No.48612623

>>48611285
And the Empire is ruled by Karl Franz.

Charlemagne's name was Karl. He was the king of the Franks.

These are not subtle people.

>> No.48612654

>>48612612
Or how about this.

No fucking Napoleon because Bretonnia is not just France is it you stupid fuckwit?

>> No.48612668

>>48612494
>Ulric and Taal Worship is not only in the open but have shrines and temples right alongside Sigmar.

That's so the setting can have a Protestant/Catholic distrust analogue.

>So he literally demolishes the identity of Bretonnia for your pathetic expy for MUH FRENCH EMPIRE

How the fuck is this demolishing the identity of Bretonnia? They're still an incredibly cavalry focused faction.

>Look how the namefag literaly did NOTHING for any other faction,

It's because I'm currently focusing on the human factions, the others are Other Idea Fag and vamp anon's territory.

>>48612533
Wood Elves realize that if war comes with say, an industrialized Empire, Bretonnia is going to get stomped no matter how much magic they have. So the Wood Elves choose to back the revolution and use it as their new shield.

>> No.48612669
File: 156 KB, 618x342, FrenchLineInfantry.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612669

>>48572428

I like the idea that Bret was conquered by the Empire and it became a sub state or something.

I could REALLY get behind this setting, to be honest. There need to be more 18th century fantasy settings. Every one I know is kinda just pirates.

>> No.48612684
File: 575 KB, 570x470, Pappenheim_Curassiers.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612684

>>48612654
Why does Bretonnia have to be 18th Century level anyway? Why can't it be 17th Century, before the liberals started ruining everything?

>> No.48612688

>>48612574

That's a hell of a point. How do you succesfully revolt against a magical government that has pegasus cavalry and fucking witches at it's behest?

And what happens afterwards? These Knights and Ladies aren't going to take this shit sitting down. You can damn well believe they'll start a quest to retake their nation.

The Empire might be looking with very curious eyes at the situation. It wouldn't take much cajoling for a deposed Lord of Bretonnia to convince their erstwhile allies to help return the country to its rightful heir.

And what happens after that? If they're succesful? You have a suppressed populace who briefly tasted life out from under the jackboot of oppression, you have a militaristic nation under puppet-rule from the Empire due to crippling sanctions put in place in exchange of help, and you have some pissed off supernatural types who are in the middle of it all watching all their hard work go down the drain.

>> No.48612691

>>48612668
>Wood Elves
>Backing a bunch of people who would chop down the forests for more industry

You literally do it in every post, you are a fucking moron.

>> No.48612718

>>48612688
Know, this draws direct parallels with the BRITISH Civil War.

But namefag the retard didn't even consider that did he?

You know, where a Bretonnian Magna Carta could be signed and Peasents don't get downtrodden as much, leading to a renewed Bretonnian identity that leads them to being a major world power again.

BUT FUCK THAT, I WUNT MUH 19TH CENTURY NAPOOPAN

>> No.48612767

>>48612718
>BUT FUCK THAT, I WUNT MUH 19TH CENTURY NAPOOPAN

Have you even read the fucking thread? Napoopan isn't even leading Bretonnia during the time the setting takes place.

>> No.48612799

>>48612654

Remove your head from your ass before your type. I was starting to think that lump in your throat was your nose.

>>48612668
>How the fuck is this demolishing the identity of Bretonnia? They're still an incredibly cavalry focused faction.

Uh, Dude - that's not Bretonnia's identity. They are essentially every trope of the Noble Knight on a Quest as a fucking nation, with added shit for the peasants that has a vaguely Pythonesque feel. The cavalry is not the focus here. Have you read their army book? Or the WFRP Bretonnia sourcebook?

>>48612668
>Wood Elves realize that if war comes with say, an industrialized Empire, Bretonnia is going to get stomped no matter how much magic they have. So the Wood Elves choose to back the revolution and use it as their new shield.

Eh, I have to disagree. The Wood Elves went out of their way to keep Bretonnia shaped as it is. And the elves aren't political simpletons. Assuming the Empire could leverage all of it's military might against Bretonnia, they wouldn't have an easy fight of it. And that's assuming they could manage that much - the other enemies of the Empire aren't going to suddenly relax and say 'Nah man, you take your time with that French-y thing'.

Plus the whole Lady in the Lake thing - she's not going to support some usurper to the throne.

If you want your not!Napoleon to stand a chance, there has to be a reason that the Lady chose him to lead the nation. Otherwise the entirety of Bretonnia would be bogged down in a civil war between a proletariat uprising and the Holy Crusaders running the country.

>> No.48612803
File: 568 KB, 1614x1215, percussionlock532improguns.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612803

>>48572226
>Would Albion have eventually become relevant after an Elizabethan age, modernized to the same point as the other factions?

Happens after Bretonnians conquer and settle Albion, with Albion eventually becoming the center of the kingdom/empire. That's how I'd do it for a stronger Earth parallel.

>What about chaos? Gunpowder use is plausible to the Greenskins, but I have a hard time imagining Chaos picking up guns, unless there was some development where the Warriors from the North were totally defeated and the new Chaos faction was some sort of Empire rebellion a la 30 years war protestant/catholic divide.

Gunpowder weapons are stupid simple to make, but I figure Orkz and Chaos warriors would essentially stick to whatever firearms they improvise, be they a handgonne or matchlock musket. More advanced ones may exist but I figure they won't focus on fine craftsmanship.

Pic related is a percussion cap made in russia

>>48572677
>There's a reason the humans still have plenty of greatswords and well-armoured knights, and it's not just that the handgun tech is a bit primitive.

Greatswords would probably go out except for some limited and prestigious formations. It's better to have two guys with a musket and bayonet.

I think munition plate cuirasses and helmets would still be around for Empire infantry, at least for some formations that are expected to deal with Orcs, Beastmen, etc.

>>48573159
>The real question you raise is whether or not the Empire really ought to remain "The Empire" or go the historical route of disintegrating the way it did.

At the same time, the 18th century saw the rise of nation-states in other regions of Europe too.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if Araby didn't hit hit the high point the Ottomans (and predecessors) did in the medieval and later eras, they wouldn't do it by the time the setting reaches a sort of 18th century analogue.

>> No.48612821

>>48612803
>I want Warhammer to become Historical boring shlock: The Post

>> No.48612828

>>48612718
>You know, where a Bretonnian Magna Carta could be signed and Peasents don't get downtrodden as much, leading to a renewed Bretonnian identity that leads them to being a major world power again.

>>48612669
>I like the idea that Bret was conquered by the Empire and it became a sub state or something.

Now we're getting somewhere.

>> No.48612887

>>48612828
No we're not, Because the namefag will argue his stupid case for Napoopan and disregard Bretonnia's idenity for the sake of his Historical parallels.

I mean, Bretonnia survived being hundreds of years behind the Empire anyway, it's called Bretonnia's have magic flying horses and most of their armies are made up of crazy motherfuckers who would ride down Daemons if it would make a nearby damsel moist.

>> No.48612918

I want more of this.

>>48611950
>personally I prefer the idea of the Druchii exploring the Dark Beneath The World and setting up shop there while the Skaven launching some sort of space program that the Dwarfs are desperately fighting against and the Orcs try and take the fight to the Warp Gates.

and less of this

>>48611791
>You want Warhammer Historical. They literally have that. or did.

>>48612803
>At the same time, the 18th century saw the rise of nation-states in other regions of Europe too.

It could see a return to the Time of Three Emperors. As each county becomes more and more capable of sustaining and defending itself, it'd be the perfect time for old grudges to come out and for different Electors to start claiming they should rightfully be on the throne.

>> No.48612919

>>48612803
I think I'll address you easily with this.

No.

18th century combat would be a fucking bad idea dramatically in Warhammer Fantasy.

Mostly because half the armies have numbers and morale to not care.

The other half are effectively bulletproof.

>> No.48612939
File: 1.56 MB, 1811x925, My two bits on the advanced setting.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48612939

>> No.48612985

>>48612918
Now someone is actually fucking talking sense outside of "muh history" bullshit.

>>48612939
Here is something I can work with.

Beastmen would be impossible to push out of places like the Drakwald.

In return this would concentrate the Beastmen so instead of small raids you have province shattering invasions.

Dark Elves using guns makes sense, but I'd just see them as replacements for the crossbows.

>> No.48613002

>>48612684
Anon do you know what years the 18th century takes place in? Because I don't think you do.

>> No.48613006

>>48612887

So ignore him, fuckwit. Move on and work together. Either the namefag will realise his idea doesn't fit and change, or he'll fuck off and keep spouting his nonsense.

In which case - you can just hide his posts.

Fucking retards, I swear to god.

>>48612918
>Skaven launching some sort of space program that the Dwarfs are desperately fighting against

Would the Dwarfs get desperate enough to team up with their Chaos tainted brethren? For the sake of their mutual survival, knowing that neither can stop the cataclysm that will follow if the ratmen reach Morrslieb or Mannslieb? Will they work together, combining their chaos magic, runic talismans and engineering know how to develop a dirigible that can reach the very heavens?

>> No.48613023
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48613023

Honestly, I think what really needs doing is the Empire should get its Pikemen back. And maybe retcon the Steamtank thing back to being able to produce them at great expense (aka rarely) rather than have fuck all of them.

>> No.48613039

>>48612985
Honestly I could see Dark Elves as just Dark Elves with guns. It kind of fits them to take the technology but not the societal changes

>> No.48613047

>>48613006
>Would the Dwarfs get desperate enough to team up with their Chaos tainted brethren? For the sake of their mutual survival, knowing that neither can stop the cataclysm that will follow if the ratmen reach Morrslieb or Mannslieb? Will they work together, combining their chaos magic, runic talismans and engineering know how to develop a dirigible that can reach the very heavens?

No.

Dwarves would not join with their chaos kin and taint their runes and ancestry with heretical chaos magic.

Because they're fucking DWARVES.

They fucking siege and destroy castles because they were short-changed.

>> No.48613063
File: 29 KB, 245x339, blackbeard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48613063

>>48612985
>Dark Elves using guns makes sense, but I'd just see them as replacements for the crossbows
Pic related. I'm no pirate, but I assume a pistol is more compact than a crossbow, so dark elf pirates would probably make use of them while others use crossbows.

>>48613002
I wasn't aware that the 18th Century was good for anything except making America. 19th>18th

>> No.48613098

>>48613047
They could team up with the Empire. I dunno. Maybe the Skaven space program just failed.

>> No.48613137

>>48612985
>Beastmen would be impossible to push out of places like the Drakwald.

I tend to agree with this. They tried doing something similar in Tasmania and it was an abject failure.

I like the idea of the Norscans uniting under a non-Chaos ruler for a change. Maybe a brief moment when someone worshipping a Norscan version of Ulric tries to unite the warring tribes against the corrupting influence of Chaos. Only to get utterly trounced.

Chaos starts to question humanities place as their chosen front line warriors and starts focusing back in on the Beastmen trapped in the Drakwald.

Cue the Beastlords of Chaos.

>> No.48613149

>>48574395
Maybe they'd be a more proper 1860s-1870s army instead of the schizo-tech kitchensink they are now.

Any more advanced and they would just decimate any other faction.

...Actually, they'd still fuck up any 18th century army. Napoleonic infantry blocks would not work against anything with an abundance of breechloading or repeating firearms for their infantry.

I think you could have Skaven be a bit more advanced, but the Empire would need to exploit the innovations they made in canon.

In which case they're no longer a "pure" 18th century army but one that makes heavy use of pepperbox and nock guns.

Really, Warhammer Fantasy already has advanced enough technology and different circumstances that you wouldn't have a total parallel to the 18th century.

Warfare would probably look more like the 19th except with more body armor and melee weapons among humans. Probably with a very low key (but mostly still plausible) "steampunk" vibe.

>>48580758
>More sewers and tunnels for them to hide in and unsanitary conditions work in their favor.

More plumbing would make things MORE sanitary, not less.

>>48593732
>Nippon
19th century Japan that's rapidly industrializing. Has its sights set on the slowly-weakening Cathay.

Won't happen without an America to force them into industrializing. If Cathay doesn't get colonized or ends up modernizing, neither will Nippon.

>>48595001
>Bretonnia, either a fucking French Revolution because they're French

They're more like Brittany than a "pure" France IMO.

>Orcs... Are orcs, but with gatling guns and revolvers. Same for ogres.

No.

>Beastmen that aren't chased out of the Old World are negro slaves to the Empire, so the rest of them are super pissed.

God no. Just have them killed off. I can't see the Empire putting up with a "domesticated" beastman population.

>>48585017
The supernatural and divine is just too tangible for that to fly. This isn't like IRL where they really were just fairy tales.

>> No.48613201

>>48613047
>They fucking siege and destroy castles because they were short-changed.

I read that White Dwarf Battle Report.

Also, not all Dwarfs are the same. You have plenty of renegade dwarfs that go against the stereotype. That's why Slayers are a thing. That's why they've always been so slow to adopt and accept new changes in technology - despite having the capacity to design, develop, build and maintain fucking Zeppelins that can go into the Chaos Wastes safely since the 2500's.

It makes total sense for a group of dwarf radicals to realise the threat the Skaven represent and try to mend the bridges with their Dawi-Zharr kin.

The rest of the Dwarfen society would grudge them for it, and never permit them to return for sure, but that doesn't mean that some of them wouldn't do it.

Also - they are Dwarf and Dwarfs numbnuts. Not Dwarves. This ain't Tolkien.

>> No.48613232
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48613232

>>48612939
>>48612985
Oh yeah, and this. You can't stop me, I'm the gINgerBREaD man!

>> No.48613247

>>48612668
>, the others are Other Idea Fag
I mean, mostly Chaos.

But I realized that regardless if Napoleon is a tiny bit represented or can find a character, I think the larger issue might be that the rather German Empire is due to be transformed. The Holy Roman Empire's fall and it being replaced with the proto-nations that would make up modern Germany is a key event in Europe during this time. We don't need a Napoleon to lead Bretonnia, but it would make sense to see Bretonnia see a dramatic reform of their military into centralized organizations and subsequently pressure the disjointed Empire into adopting new practices and technology.

>>48612718
> Bretonnian Magna Carta could be signed and Peasents don't get downtrodden as much, leading to a renewed Bretonnian identity
That was literally my idea, you can suggest ideas and not be a fag about it.

>>48612799
>They are essentially every trope of the Noble Knight on a Quest as a fucking nation
Sure, but at some point that society changes and adapts. We can come to better conclusions to what the nobility became, but leaving them as is doesn't really make sense either.

>> No.48613320

>>48613149
>God no. Just have them killed off. I can't see the Empire putting up with a "domesticated" beastman population.

I'd be more inclined towards believing that the Empire turned their mutants into a slave-caste rather than try to enslave Beastmen. Sure, you might get the odd yahoo who insisted on capturing Beastmen and raising offspring in captivity, but that'd always end in disaster.

Meanwhile Mutant Slaves and Prisoners are sent off to the Dark Beneath to try and set up a trading colony that connects to the ruins of the Dwarfen underground network, set to work clearing it and claiming it for the Empire.

>> No.48613358
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48613358

>>48613232

Uh, where exactly do you think they'd be that Dark Elf bandits would be an issue?

But Pistoliers turning into a gunslinging cowboy class going up against lizardmen and dinosaurs is definitely something I could get behind.

>> No.48613359

>>48596004
Pirates. Skeleton pirates.

>> No.48613404

>>48613247
>Sure, but at some point that society changes and adapts. We can come to better conclusions to what the nobility became, but leaving them as is doesn't really make sense either.

The problem is that the nation is being influenced by greater powers to stay the way they are. The Elves are taking an active hand in keeping things the way they are for their own powergame. This is something that isn't being taken into consideration.

I'm not saying that Bretonnia can't grow and flourish - but you have to do something about those damn Elves first.

You're treating a symptom without curing the disease.

>> No.48613421
File: 512 KB, 1599x1093, About here.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48613421

>>48613358
>Uh, where exactly do you think they'd be that Dark Elf bandits would be an issue?
See pic. Do dark elves have a reason not to bully humans there? Do humans have a good reason not to be there besides dark elves?

>But Pistoliers turning into a gunslinging cowboy class going up against lizardmen and dinosaurs is definitely something I could get behind.
Even better!

>> No.48613434

>>48613359
>The Dead Seas

Yes. I approve this post.

>> No.48613466

>>48612803
>Gunpowder weapons are stupid simple to make,
Correct, if anything they're better for Chaos because they're a weapon that requires less skill and easier to maintain.

Overall, I saw Chaos as having plenty of looted Imperial firearms for their more traditional line infantry; with more dedicated melee units to make up for more advanced weapons and so forth. The Chaos Dwarves are still around and would clearly be the industrial backbone beyond rebelling cities that similarly churn out Imperial equipment. They're by no means a new national entity, but they're also not the wandering hordes they were in the previous age; with Chaos warlords wandering between the 'liberated' cities to recruit and rearm. The few who have adopted anything vaguely democratic or republican traditions are more accurately cults of tzeentch who whispers a different lie to every soul in order to exact a single outcome.

Better Firearms are going make armored infantry more expensive and increase their weight, not remove them entirely. With respect for most, this means a breastplate and a helmet are what a soldier can expect in terms of protection.

>> No.48613486
File: 154 KB, 1599x1093, muhbad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48613486

>>48613421

Ah! I thought you meant somewhere more like here.

There'd definitely be Druchii influence there, probably even some Chaos and the odd lizardly encounter. But if I recall the geography correctly, that's a very volcanic/blasted wasteland sort of area. And the question is how did they get there in the first place? Go the long way around? Land on the East side, past the fleets of elves and then make it over the mountains by foot?

Not undoable, but it changes the flavour of the region.

>> No.48613511

>>48572017
Are the gunpowder weapons powerful in WFRP 1e and 2e? By that I mean can they instantly kill an adult male at close range with only a single shot?

>> No.48613520
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48613520

>>48613466
>Better Firearms are going make armored infantry more expensive and increase their weight, not remove them entirely. With respect for most, this means a breastplate and a helmet are what a soldier can expect in terms of protection.
This is true in real life, and I can tell you it sucks.

>> No.48613527

>>48613404
OK, that makes sense. So would be it be fair to say that elves need to have more attention before Brets get their clear identity?

>> No.48613691
File: 498 KB, 1811x903, Not the Gulf Coast.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48613691

>>48613486
I was stumped at first, but trains solved all my problems.

>> No.48613769

>>48613247
>We don't need a Napoleon to lead Bretonnia

I'm actually okay with this, I've mostly just been using him as a vessel to get Bretonnia where I want it to be.

>> No.48613773

>>48613486
Maybe dumb luck? Fast steamships? Blockade runners?

>> No.48613792

>>48613511

Yeah, definitely capable. WFRP had a fairly lethal system, though. The first had it's bugs, but the 2nd ironed a lot of them out.

>> No.48613884
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48613884

>>48613527

Yeah. They'd need a reason to basically give up on Bretonnia and move onto other projects. Maybe if the Beastmen are being cornered in the forests of the Empire and Beastlords of Chaos are starting to poke up, it could be putting significant pressure on the Wood Elves who are fighting a constant guerilla war against an increasingly violent and powerful Beastman nation.

>>48613773

Hmm...the Druchii use an underground sea to get around without the High Elves spotting them, could be used against them. A few lost colonists stumble on it, end up in the heart of Naggaroth and make a fighting retreat to somewhere defensible.

Under constant pressure, no signs of relief and near impossible to get back home. They'd have to turn to their closest allies to help.

Which just so happen to be....pic related.

Didn't an anon mention Nipponese not pushing the pressure on Cathay unless there was a not!America to push them into it?

>> No.48613900

>>48572233
what about dark elves

>> No.48613922
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48613922

>>48613884
>Hmm...the Druchii use an underground sea to get around without the High Elves spotting them, could be used against them. A few lost colonists stumble on it, end up in the heart of Naggaroth and make a fighting retreat to somewhere defensible.
>Under constant pressure, no signs of relief and near impossible to get back home. They'd have to turn to their closest allies to help.
>Which just so happen to be....pic related.
>Didn't an anon mention Nipponese not pushing the pressure on Cathay unless there was a not!America to push them into it?
What.

>> No.48613995

>>48612985
>>48613039
I think the dark elves would be a lot like dark eldar but with 18th century weapons like fast and well made fire arms but not very tough

>> No.48614262

>>48613922

What do you mean, what?

>> No.48614581

>>48613359

Aren't they already a thing?

>> No.48615540

>>48613995
I don't think dark elves would have any reason to use guns, they've been in contact with gun-using societies for thousands of years and haven't tried to adopt them for themselves. Just because the empire is using even more guns now doesn't mean every other faction is going to. If anything, the Elves of all varieties remain pretty much exactly the same. They never really give a shit about what the humans are up to, and won't change thousands of years of warfare just because the empire has more gunpowder weapons.


Also, ZERO mention of wizards or the colleges of magic at all. We must remember that the colleges are relatively new institutions and are advancing along with the technology of the empire. The fluff mentions that more and more magically inclined children are born in each generation, and we could expect this trend to continue on for the next few centuries. Wizards would probably be more common by this point, and wouldn't be as feared as they are in the present warhammer. Fluff also mentions the magic colleges cooperating with the gunnery schools and the engineering schools to develop things like better gunpowder, metals, weapons and other useful devices like flying galleons and automatons. An advanced empire would probably look less like the real world than the current empire, with magic and technology coming together to create a sort of Magiteck-steampunk society.Think Cathay or Ancient Nehekara, but with automata instead of Spirits animating statues, and more guns.

>> No.48615608

How about something like this for Imperial line infantry:

State Foot

4 points

M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7

Fire by rank(may shoot with an extra rank if they don't move)

May purchase light armor for 2 points per model

Musket(or are we using muskets) s4 armor piercing with 30" range

May have up to two detachments of light infantry, riflemen, or stormtroopers.

Can have musician, sergeant, and standard bearer as per normal WFB

>> No.48615672

>>48614581

Possibly, both Luther Harkon and Captain Noctilus are vampire pirates. Only recall the former using zombies, but skeletons probably aren't out of the question.

>> No.48615779

>>48615608
I'm of the doctrine that the unit should be designed before we make stats. Though in this case I guess we're designing something rather straight forward.

To answer your question, by this era muzzle on earth muzzle loaders are the standard. However, int he Civil War the musket was seen as a rapid fire close combat weapon (relative of course) because a shooter could potentially load and fire a musket once every ten to twenty seconds while rifles at the time had to have the bullets rammed down while engaged with the rifling; leading to a minute or so load times.

Muskets are the cheaper, faster, perhaps more reliable weapon that chaos and orcs would use. Rifles are especially long weapons with range comparable to modern firearms.

I can see riflemen being their own unit and having muskets being standard, at least for some factions. Musket was still seeing some use in the American Civil war, and the difference in rate of fire and power is enough that we shouldn't just assume they're the same.

>> No.48615827

What is with the obsession with giving every faction guns? The dwarfs have had them for at least 2000 years, the skaven for almost as long, the empire and its allies for at least 500, and in that time the only non human faction to take up guns were the ogres and thats because they'll copy any culture they come across. No reason for Chaos warriors, Orcs, bretonnians or elves to use guns just because the empire is doing it more often

>> No.48615862

>>48615779
yeah I was just wondering if we were using rifles since 19th century straddles that line (it ranges from Napoleon to the Spanish-American war)

>> No.48615889

>>48615779
also Rifles had a comparable rate of fire to muskets in the ACW(I assume that's what you were talking about) although the way you described them would be correct for earlier conflicts. The advantage of muskets was that they could use buck and ball ammunition. Although most regiments switched to rifles during the war as more became available.

>> No.48615900

>>48615827
because it's the age of gunpowder warfare? And that's part of the appeal?

>> No.48615941

>>48593732
>Underwent a peasant's revolt led by a Napoleon expy who united the kingdoms. It's now a French Empire-like entity that militarily focuses heavily on defense and artillery.
I'd go full Sun King, absolute monarchy and all that with the brets personally, with the Empire as the counterpart revolutionary nation.

>> No.48615997

>>48615827
What is the obsession with trying to force medieval combat and tactics into something specifically designed to investigate what they develop afterward. Not to mention Chaos absolutely has guns since they have Chaos dwarves; and they have that hell cannon artillery.

Even if bows were being used, how they're being used is going to change and their relative ability to pierce armor is going to be diminished.

What I'm feeling from this setting is a boshin war style clash of ages. Its fair to say there are some traditionalist methods of war where warriors in full plate charge into battle, but that's becoming a niche and needing to exploit its unique advantages to face the straight up firepower of guns.

Additionally, if you want more non gun weapons of this period there's room for grenades; though they were more popular before and after the 19th century IIRC.

Additionally, people underestimate how well a gun can be used alongside a mostly melee role. If you're charging into a line of infantry, why not fire your pistol as you charge and still clash into melee.

>> No.48616017

>>48615941
na empire should stay like late HRE

>> No.48616039

>>48616017
So, powerless, shitty and wrecked by the french in less than 2 weeks ?

>> No.48616046

>>48615900
Real world gunpowder warfare doesn't translate well into the warhammer setting when most of the empires enemies either have the numbers or durability or morale or a combination of any of those to not break under such tactics. Various anons have pointed this out earlier. And i don't know why everyone thinks musket lines and bayonets are going to be such game changers when even in the real world, it was artillery that did most of the killing. Plus, None of the tactics used in the real world had to go up against giant monsters, flying troops, teleporting or digging troops, Magic spells that can destroy an entire unit, beings with superhuman stats, unbreakable troops like the undead, reality warping and all the other crazy things that armies in warhammer have at their disposal. Better guns and artillery would help the empire and maybe the few other human nations who use them, but not to the point where every other faction has to adopt the same types of weapons or risk getting wiped out.

>> No.48616064

Cold one dragoons how fuckin sick would that be

>> No.48616086

>>48616039
Sorta good point i suppose. But to assume austria was powerless is retarded maybe more prussian than

>> No.48616210

>>48615997

I think the problem is the core idea of the thread is stupid. The Warhammer world is at a variety of levels technologically based on race and location, so saying a blanket "What if it was at the 18th century of tech?" is silly when parts of it already is.

And then when people come up with great ideas as to how the Warhammer world would grow and change - in addition to specific places evolving into basically not!Earth analogues, you ignore them and focus on jerking off over breech loading muskets.

>> No.48616229

My take on this would be to take the empire and see what happens from there.

In general the push would be to more pike and shot mixed, halberds going by the wayside somewhat as pike formations are easier to train than the individual fighting skills needed for halberds, and shot can simply replace crossbows for the most part. Most of this would be taking place in the major river and coastal areas of the Empire as they are the ones that have the greatest ability to trade.

Rifles are bound to make more of an appearance though likely in something a lot more producible than the Hochland Longrifle. But that can remain simply as skirmishers.
Repeater handguns and pistols are still expensive and complex devices not really suited for massed production, but outrider units are bound to become more common over time as an alternative to Dragoons and caracole-style pistoliers.

Knightly orders are bound to stay pretty much the same, their enemies are still just as armoured and rigged for close combat as ever. Though perhaps there would be the addition of pistols to the armoury as happened with the winged hussars of Poland. Which would get aped even more by Kislev with the spread of firearms production.

A spread of industry though, driven by being able to replicate the engines that power the Steam Tanks at last, that's going to be fairly significant. The empire is very dispersed so it's unlikely to see full coverage, but those states able to take advantage of it are only going to get stronger as they can better supply their troops and cities.

Adding magic to the mix and it's going to be a battle of innovation vs practicality.


>>48614581
Yes, they were a thing. I think they were a dogs of war unit to boot.

>> No.48616245
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48616245

>>48616046
Which might be an excuse if WFB wasn't already a setting where mundane weapons are used against monstrous targets. I'm fine with things adapting in their own ways, but your excuses don't add up to it staying exactly the same. People didn't switch to gunpowder weapons and gunlines because it was fashionable, its because it was the most effective way to fight at the time. If you make excuses to why that can't work those excuses work even more against the actual WFB setting where all of this high powered shit exists but people have even less effective weapons.

>you ignore them and focus on jerking off over breech loading muskets
So in addition to being shit at history (huur duur breach loading muskets huur duur) you also didn't read. Pretty sure there's been almost no talk on the actual weapons except the difference between a musket and a rifle.

>I think the problem is the core idea of the thread is stupid.
yet you're here trying to get us to validate how much smarter you are to a bunch of internet strangers.

Whadda fag.

>> No.48616294

>>48616245
>So in addition to being shit at history (huur duur breach loading muskets huur duur) you also didn't read. Pretty sure there's been almost no talk on the actual weapons except the difference between a musket and a rifle.


That's my point. Rather than work on good ideas, you'd rather argue the difference between a rifle and a musket.

>yet you're here trying to get us to validate how much smarter you are to a bunch of internet strangers.

And there you are, jerking off over muskets rather than coming up with decent ideas and not even responding to posts or quoting correctly.

>> No.48616317

>>48616245
>Musket References: 30
>Rifle References: 12
>Actual good ideas for where the future of the Warhammer Setting would go: 3

>> No.48616354

>>48616229 continued
So there's going to be a lot of peculiar stuff turning up in the forces of the empire. Steam tanks would be more common, yet they'd remain expensive to produce, operate and importantly given the size of the Empire: transport.

There's a lot of room for attempts to copy what Dwarfs had already mastered in the form of gyrocopters, airships, land trains (of which the steam tank was but a primitive attempt to copy), but for the most part the people and armies of the empire are going to be stuck with what works and what can be reproduced, and that's pikes, shot, cannon, archers, knights and so on.

Orcs I see not really using guns, they seem far too requiring of patience and discipline. But orcs love a good boom, so grenades and explosives could be added to the arsenal of things thrown by hand, strapping them to a goblin, or launching them out of a catapult. Goblins would like firearms, but they'd likely be relegated to crude hand cannon and early short barrelled cannon.

Chaos, well, if you go by the really old fluff and some sly nods in no-where near as old fluff, those cheeky fucks sometimes end up with bolters, lasguns, chainswords and the like as gifts of the gods. But widespread adoption of firearms is unlikely given the tribal warband nature of most of their forces. They'd appear, but intermittently.
Chaos Dwarfs are their own thing and their tech already includes a wide variety of things beyond the scope of this.

Bretonnians classically had actually a massive artillery train and the most cannon armed warships going, before they because a lot more mythology-based. Hard to say if they'd adapt to more infantry-based tactics, given their geographical isolation from the Empire means they don't really have to worry about them, Tilea and Estalia are no threat either.

Overall I see the technological thing as more a creeping advance than revolution in Warhammer.

>> No.48616385

>>48616317

Good ideas from this thread:
1. WW1 Space Skaven going straight to dah moon.
2. The New World Cowboys vs. Dinosaurs
3. Undead Revolution.
3.

>> No.48616439

>>48616354 continued again

Skaven are a bit of an oddity due to their technological schizophrenia. But they're saturday morning cartoon villains, with big guys, ninjas, endless mooks, stupidly over the top super-weapons and a tendency to fuck up constantly due to their plans being fucktarded, carried out by incompetents, defeated by unlikely heroes or internal scheming.
Essentially no change there. There's always some new insane warmachine or monster for them to try and inflict on the world before it blows itself and half the army up and that's only going to get more aggravated over time. But there's no way they're going to ever lose the swarm of basic mooks to regimented gun lines due to their reliance on warpstone for basically everything, including their firearms.

Dwarfs could stand to have more of the rare stuff featured. Sure it took centuries for things like the flame cannon to be accepted, and gyrocopter pilots are still considered to be about as mad as members of the Slayer cult, but there's no doubting their effectiveness. Perhaps they could finally make up for their lack of cavalry by having some pikeme.. pikedwarfs. But they're so slow to change it'd be easiest to feature things already seen in very limited numbers in just slightly larger amounts.

>> No.48616722

>>48593732
>Bretonnia
Underwent a peasant's revolt led by a Napoleon expy who united the kingdoms. It's now a French Empire-like entity that militarily focuses heavily on defense and artillery.

Disgusting.

>>48595843
>Bretonnia
>Having listened to the various comments made in response to the original concept, I'll return them to a cavalry focus. The shock and melee cav that we all know and love is now augmented by a bunch of gun cav and light but highly mobile horse-towed artillery. I'm still keeping the peasant revolt idea, which means they're still a French Empire-esque monarchy led by Eugenie I, the granddaughter of not-Napoleon.

Absolute peasantry.

>> No.48616875

>>48616229
>halberds going by the wayside somewhat as pike formations are easier to train than the individual fighting skills needed for halberds
The main reason why the empire and Bretonnian infantry use Halbreds so much is because those are more effective at cutting through the thick hides and armor of their enemies. Pikes are good for stopping cavalry and lightly armored troops, theres no doubt about that. But against things like Orcs, Minotaurs, chaos warriors, chaos dwarfs, Undead and monsters, you want regiments of halberds to chop them down. Pikes would be important, but as long as melee troops still exist in the empire, Halberds will probably be the most important weapon.

I like the idea of The knightly orders being upgraded with Gunpowder weapons. Generals use repeater handguns, and Most knights start off as pistoliers so they still have the skills with firearms. Unlike Bretonnians the empire knights seem to have no problem with using "unchivalrous" weapons, and in the end times they used grenades that were a product of the Fire college of magic and the engineers.

better Steam engines would be a huge change for the empire, and if they could advance them to at least the level the dwarfs have now I see Imperial ironclads, Mobile battle towers and steam tanks becoming more common. Again, in the end times an engineer finally came up with a better steam engine and planned on selling his invention once the war was over, but we all know how that ended. In a hypothetical world where the empire and friends triumph over the storm of chaos, many of the inventions from that war would be the basis of what the future empire includes in its arsenal.

>> No.48616960

>>48616245
Gunlines in warhammer are used to thin out the enemy so that the humans aren't horribly outnumbered or outmatched in close combat. Battles are hardly decided by the hand gunners, they're mostly there to make sure by the time the enemy horde does reach close combat they're easier for the spearmen and halberdiers to deal with. Guns work for the empire and the dwarfs because they also have decent melee troops. Most of their enemies are willing to charge full speed into a hail of bullets,so real world gun line tactics alone won't work. And bayonets being perceived as a serious threat to anything but fodder troops like skavenslaves, zombies and Goblins is laughable. Again, real world humans would break under a bayonet charge, Beastmen, chaos marauders, dark elves and Orcs laugh at the humans in flimsy coats and beat them to bloody ruin in hand to hand. So the empire ever going full napoleonic warfare won't happen. Guns may get better, new artillery pieces will be invented, but they'll still need those melee troops if they plan on winning wars

>> No.48617158

>>48611532
>kilts are a must
"Oi what's whiff dis here sissy dress fing wez gots on? Dis defnetly ain't Orky..."
"Shaddup you git! Oi foinally feel pretty on the outside as Oi do on the inside. Now git stompin 'efore da Boss hearz you complainin an krumps uz both!"

>high elves and dark elves who the hell knows
>Balkanized Elves Intensifies

>> No.48617355

>>48616722
This.

>> No.48618922

>>48617158
>High elves and Dark elves
>remain unchanged because why do thy give a fuck if the empire has more guns?

I can see the dark elves splitting up, but only if Malekith dies/goes missing for long enough. High elves have little reason to Balkanize, andthe only major change for them would be setting up colonies in new places or expanding on the oversea holdings they already have

>> No.48618971

>>48616722
>Napoleon expy somehow manages to get enough support to actually be a threat to the bretonnian Knights
>peasants win a few battles
>Green Knight appears and challenges Napoleon in honorable combat
>GG peasants
That's assuming they don't get immediately crushed by all the Knights uniting to put down the peasant revolt in the first place. Nothing Unites the Knights like a challenge to their authority

>> No.48620332

OP here

Damn, glad to see the concept catch on with you guys, but it's a pity you're all getti g so riled up about this.

You would all be banned from your LGS for getting so mad at eachother for sure. This is a silly concept for an already silly universe. No need to start flinging shit at eachother.

Anyway, I like the 19th century concept but the 18th century seems more natural.

I was drunk when I made this thread btw.

>> No.48621233

>>48613149
>Any more advanced and they would just decimate any other faction.
They have the technology level to decimate any other faction right now.

They just can't be assed enough to unite, as well as reliability issues

>> No.48621572

>>48616294
you'd rather argue the difference between a rifle and a musket.
Except there isn't an argument, you're just crying that I know the difference and that you have to apply yourself other than getting autistic about the setting. You keep complaining there aren't enough ideas but so far I doubt you've provided any ; or if you have its the retarded as fuck space skaven or communist skaven.

Why the fuck should anyone validate your shitty opinion.

>> No.48621643

>>48616960
>guns are too weak
>technology can't make them better
>so they have to stick with shittier weapons because I don't understand how bayonets work

Im officially tired of you fucktards making this argument. It's dumb and exists only to keep Wahammer in stasis like 40k.

>> No.48621659

>>48616385
Thanks for creating a list for the shittiest ideas yet so we can ignore everyone who can't divorse childish wish fulfillment from world building.

Go ruin a design by post thread instead.

>> No.48623191

Just thought I'd state what my currents views on a few of the human factions are:

>Empire
Mostly the same thing except with more modern units and more reliance on guns. Politically they're now a more-unified constitutional monarchy with Luitpold IV as the sovereign and Klaus von Konigswald as the PM.


>Bretonnia
Their melee cavalry is now augmented by gun cavalry. They also have machine guns and artillery that while weaker than the Empire's can be towed by horses very quickly around the battlefield. A Second French Empire-esque monarchy currently led by Eugenie I. How exactly they got there is going to cause a hissyfit so I'm not going to work on that right now.

>Marienburg
Their military relies heavily on mercenaries and native colonial troops from Ind and other colonies under their control. Led by a council of stadtholders with an East India Company-like organization doing most of the colonizing.

>Tilea
Has an under-equipped and undermanned army that has to make up for these disadvantages with guerrilla warfare and experience. Politically went FULLREPUBLICANISM.

>> No.48623274

>>48623191
>Mostly the same thing
I feel like this is always the weakest way to design anything m8. Even if we really want to keep it the same, there's going to be reason why it stayed the same. As I've mentioned before, the 18th and 19th centuries are important because the HRE started to evolve and change who was the most important; at the very lest we should consider if we want the Empire's dynamics to be shifted by a new industrial militarist element like how Austria had to deal with Prussia being the other major German power.

>> No.48624094

>>48621659
You do know half of fantasy's point is making what you like, right? 3 I'm not a fan of, but 1 and 2 are pretty neat.
>>48623274
Maybe so many nobles died in a massive war that it briefly shifted to a meritocracy where great commanders became lords before it cemented into a more centralized but militaristic government.

>> No.48624690

I feel like justifying a massive peasant revolt in Brettonia wouldn't be difficult, but justifying a WIN for the revolution would. I mean, GK and the Lady seem cool with oppression, and they seem pretty powerful. Too powerful for just some chumps with guns and pitchforks to overthrow.

Unless Chaos, I suppose. Hmmm...

If Chaos supports democracy against oppression and tyranny, does that mean they aren't really the bad guys?

>> No.48625162

>>48624690
>If Chaos supports democracy against oppression and tyranny, does that mean they aren't really the bad guys?
This has been my angle, but the answer is still yes. When Chaos supports Democracy and Republicanism it only does so in order to bring about mob rule and the tyranny of the majority. They promise freedom and representation but in exchange for might-makes-right anarchism and subjugation to the forces of Chaos under the guise of free will.

> but justifying a WIN for the revolution would
I agree, and we don't even need them to win. Brets can still be nobles that have had to sign over a minimum of political freedom or at least human rights to peasants in exchange for remaining the powerful wealthy estate.

People have mentioned the question of elvan involvement in their politics, so that has me thinking that this evolution would have to include or markedly remove that influence. In either case the former feudal lords could be transitioning away from fighting directly and instead focus on becoming wealthy owners of a new industrial economy as happened in real life. A noble isn't taking a step down when they become an industrial magnate, if anything this would probably push them higher up the food chain if they're the ones still funding armies with large trusts and holdings.

>> No.48625212

>>48624690
If chaos supported the Peasant uprising than you can be sure that The wood elves and high elves would intervene because they wouldn't want a chaos realm right on their doorstep/right where a bunch of their waystones are. Chaos napoleon get utterly BTFO by the coalition, and anyone who supported him gets brutally executed to show the other peasants why its a bad idea to rebel against the knights.

>> No.48625291

>>48625212
>brutally executed to show the other peasants why its a bad idea to rebel against the knights.
This is what they did to the Paris commune but they still had to make political reforms as a result.

Assuming a total massacre and abhorrent treatment of the peasants after, that still implies that the Brets have changed how their society operates or are stuck as they were whatever number of centuries ago and have suffered economically as a result.

How eager would the wood elves want to keep the same power structure that failed to stomp out this rebellion on its own anyway? At the very least they'd have to escalate their control over the society.

>> No.48625438

>>48624094
>where great commanders became lords
I do like the idea there are new royal dynasties that have been created since we saw them last in WFB. Creating a proper standing army would also be an important shift towards meritocracy without removing the importance of lords.

>> No.48625497

>>48625291
>How eager would the wood elves want to keep the same power structure that failed to stomp out this rebellion on its own anyway?

thats assuming the rebellion even got that dangerous. I don't see a peasant uprising being able to organize and train very effectively when their lords are around. Best case scenario for them, the Knights launch a major erantry crusade, leaving the Kingdom mostly under the protection of the men at arms. Somehow this Napoleon is able to organize and arm a bunch of uneducated peasants into an effective fighting force capable of giving the knights a run for their money, while also convincing them to betray their masters. Then the knights return home from crusade, see their peasants trying to organize a rebellion, and stomp them out with utter contempt. Thats if the Grail knights, the green knight and the fay enchantress don't do something about it first.

>> No.48625523

>>48625497
>and stomp them out with utter contempt
and then?

I'm still hearing about what couldn't happen and not a lot of what'd happen instead.

>> No.48625741

>>48625523
As an alternative to Bretonnia modernizing in response to the empire (and just the empire) modernizing would be to go the opposite direction. More grail knights, more damsels, more potent blessings, more pegasus knights, maybe even generic versions of the green knight made from the souls of the very best of the grail knights. It's already canon that the Blessing allows the Knights to fight in situations real world knights would lose in, like charging pike blocks or being shot at.
Another thing that could happen is the lady taking an active hand in shaping the peasantry in addition to the nobility. While she seems to be turning the nobility into something more like elves, perhaps she slowly starts turning the peasants into a hardy, subservient race that can better serve the knights?
other than that, Bretonnian society remains largely unchanged

>> No.48625797

>>48625741
>While she seems to be turning the nobility into something more like elves
Yeah pretty sure Bretfags aren't going to like this.

>Bretonnian society remains largely unchanged
Shit answer, disregarding.

>> No.48625806

>>48625497
A thought: The RL French Revolution, like most, included members of the higher order switching sides because they sympathized wit the cause.

This Napoleon could be a Grail Knight who realized the peasantry were people and got a bunch of like-minded nobles to help him fund and lead the rebellion.

We don't need to do full on Reign of Terror...actually we might. Not only because CHAOS, but also because it's Warhammer and grimdarkness still has a place in the fantasy verse.

We also don't need to go full Revolution, just a peasant uprising that saw success in the form of nobles losing some power and peasants gaining basic rights and/or dignity.

>> No.48625847

>>48625806
>We don't need to do full on Reign of Terror...actually we might. Not only because CHAOS, but also because it's Warhammer and grimdarkness still has a place in the fantasy verse.
>We also don't need to go full Revolution, just a peasant uprising that saw success in the form of nobles losing some power and peasants gaining basic rights and/or dignity.
Maybe it turns out it was Chaos all along and Napoleon is actually a Tzeencthian sorcerer.

>> No.48625951

>>48625806
>This Napoleon
People are getting triggered over this term by the way. Plus I feel like we can fit some Cromwellian themes where the Lord Protector type is undertaking a holy mission at home.

>>48625847
>Maybe it turns out it was Chaos all along
In this case it'd fit the idea that it evolved to play on the humanitarian angle thats propping up everywhere. In this case the charismatic leader doesn't even need to be an actual sorcerer, he could have just become a pawn by embracing a philosophy that fulfills the wishes of Chaos. Makes it less about hunting the right evil wizard in favor of preventing the printing press from spreading the wrong ideas.

>> No.48625981

>>48625847
>Tzeenchtian
Trouble is, he fits the other Chaos Gods as well. Tzeentch for tactics. Khorne for war mastery. Slaanesh because, well, women. And continent-level warfare has historically proven to be an amazing at spreading disease.

>>48625951
So what name should we use when discussing this?

>> No.48625991
File: 29 KB, 960x540, 1460894823909.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48625991

>>48625951
>In this case it'd fit the idea that it evolved to play on the humanitarian angle thats propping up everywhere. In this case the charismatic leader doesn't even need to be an actual sorcerer, he could have just become a pawn by embracing a philosophy that fulfills the wishes of Chaos. Makes it less about hunting the right evil wizard in favor of preventing the printing press from spreading the wrong ideas.
But what if the evil wizard IS controlling the press?

>> No.48626018

>>48625981
>Trouble is, he fits the other Chaos Gods as well. Tzeentch for tactics. Khorne for war mastery. Slaanesh because, well, women. And continent-level warfare has historically proven to be an amazing at spreading disease.
Of course, I mean the totally-not-Napoleon character, not Napoleon.

>> No.48626070

>>48625797
>Shit answer
Bretonnias whole schtick is Stasis, they don't change because they adhere to the codes laid down by Giles and to break those codes would be the greatest dishonor there is. Bretonnias entire society is to be a living weapon for Lileath, and a meat shield for the wood elves. They are supposed to be RL france and go through a revolution.
However, nothing in the peasants vow says they have to live in absolute shit. Maybe one of the kings sees that Happier, healthier peasants make more produce, give more taxes and craft better items. maybe it becomes a point of pride for Bretonnian lords to have their peasants look good as long as it doesn't detract from their knightly funds. If their peasants are smelly shit covered inbreds, its seen as offensive to visiting nobles and that knight will have to have a good answer for it or be laughing stock for the rest of the knights. Peasants still wouldn't be anywhere near free, but at least they don't have to live in absolute destitute poverty

>> No.48626134

>>48625981
>So what name should we use when discussing this?
Something vague enough not to offend lore Autists. Something like the Great/Glorious Leader is pretty clear.

>>48625991
>But what if the evil wizard IS controlling the press?
Then he's exactly where he should be. Also would have a lot of weird editorials.

>> No.48626489

>>48626070
What if Athel Loren got destroyed by a horde of Chaos, dragons, or Chaos dragons?

>> No.48626677

>>48626489
If athel Loren gets destroyed then the whole world gets fucked because that place maintains the "weave" that binds the world together. The oak of ages gets destroyed and its GG for the setting. Also, anything that could wipe out athel Loren would annihilate bretonnia shortly after, if not before.

>> No.48626748

>>48626677
Okay, not an option.

What if they only destroyed it a bit?

>> No.48626986

>>48626748
>getting this desperate to see bretonnia turn into France 2.0
Why not just pick another human faction of you want napolean armies so badly? Tilea and estalia actually make more sense for going mostly gunpowder because they don't have to deal with orcs, beastmen or chaos as much as the empire and bretonnia, and they are mainly fighting other humans.

>> No.48627092

>>48626986
Not that anon, but Bretonnia would fit the Revolution model best due to the hilariously oppressive regime creating the sort of unfairness that usually causes revolutions among the oppressed in the first place.

Still, perhaps focusing this much on them isn't the best idea. Who haven't we discussed at all?

>> No.48627273

>>48616960
Anon a musket with bayonet is identical to a spear in pretty much every way that matters. Also I don't think you understand how much damage a bullet can do. It's not like the movies where they make a small hole. They will blow massive chunks out of people, especially the high caliber musket balls used by period armies. Guns represented a massive step up in the lethality of ranged weapons. Warhammer Orcs are tough but they aren't that tough.

>> No.48627492

>>48572017
Nigga the Fantasy world already was. The Empire and Skaven were basically pre-modern armies from the 18th century with 16th century elements thrown in because a lot of people in Warhammer Fantasy have magical shields that make bullets useless.

>> No.48627603

>>48627273
Guns already do all that in Warhammer. The point wasn't that guns are too weak to defeat the enemies, it's that many of their enemies don't really give a shit if the guy next to them gets a hole blown through him, or have the numbers to make up for it. Ranged troops typically thin out the enemy before the inevitable melee clash

>> No.48627675

>>48627273
No they are. Orcs are insanely durable even in Warhammer Fantasy, and it's why the Empire often uses heavy artillery over just musket lines. To stop Chaos Warriors and Orcs you need rockets, missiles, cannons, mortars, ribaults, and gatling guns.

>> No.48627999
File: 88 KB, 768x831, .577MartiniVs303BritishAnd.22LR.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
48627999

>>48627675
Or a Martini-Henry-like weapon, which I've been intending to arm the Empire's soldiers with anyways.

>> No.48628108

>>48627675
I don't think you understand how much tissue damage a musket ball does

>> No.48628833

>>48628108
I think you're missing the many, many years of how it's worked in warhammer and are focusing too much on reality.

>> No.48628900

>>48628833
Of course it works, doesn't mean musket volleys aren't effective too.

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