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[ERROR] No.46228725 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Pathfinder General - /pfg/

Waifuing the villain edition: when standard waifus aren't enough to get you going anymore, will your characters pursue The Most Dangerous Game?

Unified /pfg/ link repository: http://pastebin.com/XehJXVjp

Old Thread: >>46223468

>> No.46228756 [DELETED] 

>gets btfo about caster imbalance
>immediately makes new thread

Is this how /pfg/ threads usually are?

>> No.46228759

I'm a fan of Meyanda, though I haven't met too many villains yet.

>> No.46228782

>>46228756
>people complaining about "early" new threads
When will it end?

>> No.46228785

>>46228752
I played in an ERP-themed Way of the Wicked game as a female cleric of Asmodeus who got off on all the misogyny in her religion.

>> No.46228794 [DELETED] 

Anyway, I am still waiting for your reponse as to why 7 goblins would literally stand in a perfect cone to be colorsprayed.

> implying they wouldn't spread out
> implying a 1st level wizard might fail casting defensively
> implying they would all fail their will saves

There was so much wrong with your example it's not even funny. And then you stopped responding once you got blown the fuck out because god forbid someone dare to challenge the dogma that casters are over powered.

>> No.46228799

Anon drew me a thing

>> No.46228818

>>46228799
D'aww!

>> No.46228823

>>46228794

Because the vast majority of encounters apparently take place in basic dungeons.

>> No.46228828

>>46228755
I think so. You still must take penalties for having a non-light weapon in the off-hand.

>> No.46228849

How do I play a good catfolk?

>> No.46228850

>>46228799

That's so cute! What's the story behind it?

>> No.46228871

>>46228849
Dont be a stereotype, dont go for catnip dont nuzzle people dont meow/etc. Act like a predator, when someone acts weak start flashing your fangs at them and showing them you're the leader. etc.

>> No.46228875

>>46228849

Male or female? This is actually important for a Pathfinder Catfolk.

>> No.46228884 [DELETED] 

>>46228823

Except they don't. And even then there is no reason to assume all 7 goblins would be within 5 feet of each other.

Color spray is a very powerful spell but it loses effectiveness past 1st level and half of its effects don't work on undead. But retarded caster shills just go "LOL WIZARDS GET SoD AT FIRST LEVEL" and refuse to even read the rules past what they want to see.

Hence why caster supremacy is a meme. Sure it's there somewhat, but not nearly as much as /tg/ memes about, and certainly is offset by having to run a wizard and keep track of all those spells in the fucktarded Vancian magic system that D&D still uses 15 years later that is specifically designed to use up erasers as if WoTC has a fucking backroom contract with Ticonderoga.

>> No.46228891 [SPOILER] 

>>46228725
I'm going to give my Angelkin Aasimar Chosen One of Iomedae a backstory enemy, who just so happens to be a Pitborn Tiefling Antipaladin about his age.

He constantly rebuffs her uncouth advances because one, she's Evil, two, he's too innocent for that, and three, her hairdo creeps him out.

If I get my way, they will eventually fight and one of them will die.

Deus Vult.

>> No.46228897

>>46228850
Halfling Cavalier resting with her wolf, not much story behind it but i think it will make a good image to share while the party camps

>> No.46228912

>>46228891
I want a picture of that hairdo.

>> No.46228925

So in the previous thread I saw a lot of kitsune art and the like.

Is there a kitsune race somewhere that id for Pathfinder?

>> No.46228944

>>46228925
Yes, its in both Dragon Empires book and the Advanced Race Guide

>> No.46228952

>>46228925
Kitsune are a race for Pathfinder, yes.

>> No.46228970

>>46228944
>>46228952
Well damn. Looks like I will go through them. Thanks lads

>> No.46228975

>>46228925

Kitsune are a race you can play in Pathfinder, they're actually really solid by race standards and often played due to their fluffy tails and racial abilities.

Pathfinder Kitsune are Anthro-Fox-Human, but most people accept Kenomomimi-Fox-Human.

>> No.46228978

>>46228891
>being a paladin of a vain torturer god
Asmodean paladins probably know more about morality than that character.

>> No.46228984

>>46228925
Yes, they even have a racial feat that can be taken multiple times to gain more fluffy tail to touch

>> No.46228997 [SPOILER] 

>>46228912
This, but on someone who already has horns.

It's just too "oooh, look at me, I'm EEEEVIL" for 'im, ya know?

>> No.46229021

>>46228978
>Chosen Ones
>not being innocent cinnamon rolls who don't question their gods

>> No.46229031

>>46228261
Actually on the same boat, I joined a late RotRL game and I talked my party into capturing Athroxis so we can interrogate her.

(My character) Didnt have the balls to actually torture her so I ended up geasing her and a few other captured Wrath fighters and now they live in our farm.

Very recently we also managed to snag Delvahine alive and I did the same trick but left her in her halls.

>Try to be nice to Athroxis
>She gives me the cold shoulder every time
>Her wrath fighters try to talk to me
>She gives them a look and they shut up
Meanwhile
>Day 1 running with Delvahine profane gift
>She gives me tips and talks to me in an affectionate manner through the telepathy
>Realize I have better odds of ending up with Delvahine being legitimately friendly to me
>Still determined to make friends to Athroxis
Someday everyone will be my friend.

>> No.46229033

>>46228875

Reminder that Catfolk in Pathinder live in societies of 90% women, and when a male Catfolk wanders by a village he bangs any of the ones that want kittens and leaves a week later.

>> No.46229043

>>46226629
Oh god, it just keeps going
>My mech rules aren't overpowered, the GM just needs to have some common sense and use more powerful enemies if one of the PCs has a mech

>> No.46229075

>>46229021

Chosen One is the greatest archetype in Pathfinder.

>> No.46229084

>>46229033

...Don't remember seeing that on the SRD.

>> No.46229086

>>46228849
End all of your sentences with "nya"

>> No.46229087

>>46228997
That paladin has too many preconceived notions about what good and evil looks like. They need to be more open minded!

>> No.46229090

Can I two hand two greatswords if I have a four armed eidolon? Does it just suffer ordinary twf penalties?

>> No.46229147

>>46228849
>>46228875
>>46229033
>>46229084

>> No.46229154

>>46229084

It was from Inner Sea Races, they're an almost pure-nomadic race that only settles down when the women are pregnant, want to get pregnant, are too old to keep going, or are taking care of children. The men never really settle down and aren't part of the rearing process.

>> No.46229156

>>46229090

Well, the "ordinary" penalties in that case would be -4/-4. Pretty hefty.

>> No.46229165

Hey /pfg/. Been working on the Light Handbook today, trying to iron out some of the bugs and pieces I haven't tackled. "Playtest soon" seems to be using the standard industry definition of soon, unfortunately.

One thing I've been dealing with is the very basic nature of how the Light sphere works. Namely, how you need an action to both create a glow, and an action to make it shed bright light. Given that bright light is generally required to do anything really useful, there's this extra setup cost to do much of anything with Light.

To me, the mechanic feels clunky and difficult to work with, possibly annoying for players, and maybe unnecessary for balance. But, I wanted to ask you guys about the subject. What does /pfg/ think?

>> No.46229181

>>46229090
Yup, pretty much. Keep in mind a greatsword is not a light weapon in any way, so you will be taking the full penalties.

>> No.46229198

>>46229156
>>46229181
What happens if I get six arms and two hand three greatswords?
Is it still a -4 on the third hit?

>> No.46229211

>>46229165
Talent to lower the action needed to make a thing shed bright light if it's already glowing? Or would that shanghai things already in there?

I'm not too familiar with Light, if I'm honest.

>> No.46229218

>>46229198
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat

>> No.46229232

>>46229198
Number of hands only matter for the ability to wield the weapon at all; the penalties will only decrease if you're using a light weapon in the off-hand.

>> No.46229259

>>46229147
>>46229154

Huh. Did not know that.

>> No.46229263

>>46229198
At that point you are using a multiattack, so you are taking a -5 on all non-primary attacks (which all weapon attacks are, if I remember correctly). Taking the multiattack feat can help reduce that somewhat, but its only available to PCs via dm fiat unless the rules for eidelons have some way of getting it.

>> No.46229273

>>46229232
>8 arms.
>three greatswords.
>One longsword.
>One dagger. In your 'off' hand.

>> No.46229274

>>46229156
That's why you get Stupendous Strength.

>> No.46229297

>>46229273
and a glorious nippon steel katana in your mouth

>> No.46229302

>>46229263
Scratch that, >>46229218 has the best answer.

>> No.46229305

>>46229154

>tfw you will never play a cool tomcat whose motivation for adventure is being the hottest stud on the breeding market

>> No.46229307

>>46229263
>At that point you are using a multiattack, so you are taking a -5 on all non-primary attacks (which all weapon attacks are, if I remember correctly).
Primary and secondary attacks are only a thing if natural weapons are involved.

>> No.46229312

>>46229273
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat

>> No.46229364

>>46229273
EVERY hand except the first one is an off-hand.

>> No.46229388

>>46229305

Isn't this the motivation for basically every male adventurer?

>> No.46229400

So I am looking for ways to buff up my unarmed damage as a monk.
What are the best ways to do this?

>> No.46229413

>>46229388
Hey man, SOME of us still abide by the Code.

>> No.46229415

>>46229400
Play a larger size class

>> No.46229419

>>46229400
Dragon Style

>> No.46229424

>>46229273

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKgv6xyY5MM

>Synthesist/Magus VMC
>Take accurate strike arcana
>Inevitable Eidolon subtype
>Literally become Grievous
Sounds like fun

>> No.46229435

>>46229388
>not being a pure, chaste, innocent youth with an overprotective familiar

It's like you don't even serve the Gods.

>> No.46229441

>>46229400
Brawler Fighter, Dragon Style, Bleeding Attack.

>> No.46229443

>>46229305
>tfw you'll never have a qt catfolk girlfriend with daddy issues.

>> No.46229446

>>46228794
>implying there's not failure points for the fighter too
>implying by "optimal turn" they meant anything but "magical christmas land"
>implying someone realizing that you're bait and not responding is "blown the fuck out"

Wait shit I took the bait within the bait! It was metabait! This guy is a master baiter!

>> No.46229447

>>46229413

>Talking about waifus when I'm just talking about NSA relationships.

>> No.46229459

>>46228849
Play through the old romantic classic "Let's Meow Meow" to properly understand.

>> No.46229463

>>46229447

W-what does national security have to do with it?

>> No.46229480

>>46229305


Captcha thinks pork ribs are steak

>> No.46229505

>>46228849
>I'm lookin nice
>My shadow's lookin nice
>What a team!

>> No.46229555

>>46229480
>>46229505
Holy CHRIST what a flashback this is.

>> No.46229571

>>46229211
I could potentially do that, but Meyers is offering me the chance to put out some errata if I think its the best choice. So the question is how best to handle it - whether its really a problem, or just something someone might want to upgrade away from.

>> No.46229608

>>46229571
Light's base sucks.

Fix it.

>> No.46229611

Question: I'm super unused to necromancer concepts, but if I wanted to raise my dead party members as intelligent undead, allowing them to largely be the same character, how would I go about this? Is it even possible? Would the other PCs be irritated by this development or find it hilarious as I am?

>> No.46229656

>>46229480
>>46229505
Talk about great minds thinking alike

>> No.46229665

does the monks unarmed damage go any higher than 2d10 purely from its class? aka not factoring in the size or anything other than that?

Because I am thinking of stacking loads of "you are treated as a monk of +4/5 levels" and punching stuff

>> No.46229677

>>46229611
You can do it in Spheres.

Summon Spirit lets you call up dead spirits and slap them into animated objects, constructs, undead abominations, etc.

>> No.46229679

>>46229611

It's called Create Greater Undead. Unfortunately, it's a level 8 spell, so you won't get access to it until late in the game. But when you get right down to it, do you really *need* intelligent companions?

>> No.46229685

>>46229571
It's a problem. Absolutely a problem. If you can errata it to let us do glow+brighten as a single action, do it in a heartbeat.

>> No.46229704

>>46229679
That doesn't use their soul though. Or involve it in any way.

>> No.46229711

>>46229611
Unless you help them all become liches or vampires or something, it's not gonna go well. People who become undead after they died aren't actually the same people, so you'd just get a bunch of evil Juju Zombies or whatever that have the memories and abilities of your party, but not their personalities.

And, y'know, evil. There's generally at least one person in any party who's not down with that.

>> No.46229716

>>46229611
That VERY much depends on the individual players.

To some of us, who think the only thing undead are good for is comparative exposure tests between sunlight and various settings on plasma cannons, having one's mind usurped in exchange for a fuckton of vulnerabilities is quite cleanly in the "WELL FUCK YOU TOO ASSHOLE, MY NEW CHARACTER OPENS FIRE" category of events.

>> No.46229717

So, continuing off last thread, how do I play a Zweihander Sentinel Warder as a rogue-ish individual while still using a fuckhuge sword? Wearing, at MOST, a breastplate for armor. I want to be as speedy and acrobatic as I possibly can while still swinging around a claymore.

I'm not good with PoW, so if there's a better way to do this feel free to educate me.

>> No.46229734

>>46229704

It's not like they'll need it...

>> No.46229739

>>46229716
>Plasma cannons

I'm honestly surprised they made beam cannons, but didn't make a plasma version of them.

>> No.46229743

>>46228455
Hey, Gareth.

Given that the OGL statements in DSP books prohibit "proper names (characters, deities, etc.)", could we get an official statement on whether that is meant to cover the names/descriptions of the martial traditions or not?

I want to put them on Pathminder, but the name thing could be kind of an issue, especially since some of the traditions directly reference character names (e.g. "Stained Glass Knight").

>> No.46229796

>>46229441
>Bleeding Attack
wait.. does this mean that the enemy will take 1d4 damage forever/until they succeed on a Heal check?

>> No.46229808

>>46228925
Kitsune are pretty great mechanically because you can get 3.5 Changeling-style shapechanging with a feat, there's a favored class option that's excellent if you like enchantments, they can get pounce with some feat investment at level 10, and there are a couple of nice skill bonuses.

Plus some build options (in particular, Oracle) can pretty easily get a bunch of 2/day spell like abilities at minimal cost.

>> No.46229809

>>46229716
>>46229711
>>46229679

Bummer. I was hoping for a fun "evil" alternative to raise dead or something ya know? Just in this case, more like, raise to undeath while still allowing the undead PC to retain their class levels and free will.

>> No.46229816

>>46229679
Can't you get a scroll of it? Or alternatively, some item that does it even cheaper like Candle of Invocation does?

>> No.46229819

>>46229796
Or otherwise receive healing, yes.

>> No.46229832

>>46229796

Pretty sure they take 1d4, then the result of the 1d4 is what they take for each round until healed, yes. You don't roll 1d4 multiple times. If you roll a 2 then they take 2 each round.

Also I think Bleeding Attack is actually called Belier's Bite.

>> No.46229839

>>46228533
Not ALL the benefits. You still only get 1x Str to damage unless you've got the bit from Landsknecht or however the fuck you spell that shit.

>> No.46229847

>>46229832
That's incorrect actually, they have to roll the 1d4 every round until the bleeding stops.

>> No.46229853

>>46229090
Don't do this. Greatswords after the first probably only get 1/2 Strength to damage because they count as "off-hand weapons". (I say "probably" because the rules don't actually cover multiple two-handed weapons.)

4x 1-handed weapons will get you more damage from Strength (x1 + x.5 + x.5 + x.5 = x2.5) than 2x 2-handed weapons (x1.5 + x.5 = x2), will have higher attack bonuses (assuming the ones after the first are light), and will get you more individual chances for critical hits (important for effects that trigger on a critical).

>> No.46229860

>>46229717

Scarlet Throne works. Plenty of kickass lightning-fast moves, and two-handed heavy blades are explicitly part of the style. Plus, the related skill is Sense Motive, which is always helpful for streetwise types. You'll have 4+INT skillpoints, and traits can get you any kind of sneaky skill you might want as a class skill, so you can do all kinds of rogue-ish things. As for armor, well, you're already getting a shield bonus for ZS and a shitload of counters, a breastplate works just fine.

>> No.46229863

>>46229832
It got defluffed to Bleeding Attack for the SRD.

>> No.46229865

>>46229839
Either way it's stupid. The answer to how to make a totally different style viable isn't to make it exactly the same.

>> No.46229876

>>46229571
I agree that Light needs an action economy fix, to at least allow it to keep up with Dark

Also, I've always thought having the ability to create magical lenses to alter light that shines through them would be cool.

When you have the playtest available, would you mind sharing so we can look over it?

Also, some feat support to mix its effects with Dark would be cool

>> No.46229878

>>46229819
that is amazing at low levels.. nice. Thanks for the info

>> No.46229880

>>46229809
Use control undead to control a vampire, have it bite the PCs and turn them into vampires, then stake and kill it so they're not under its control.

>> No.46229882

>>46229717
Scarlet Throne primary, maybe go into Veiled Moon as a secondary for teleport/sneaky ghost effects?

>> No.46229911 [DELETED] 

>>46229446
>>implying there's not failure points for the fighter too

There are but you highlighted those while giving the wizard an ideal situation. Stop beign biased and stop trying to hide it.

>> No.46229937

>>46229739
Well they're a Heavy Repeating Crossbow level of trap-option for anyone other than Warsouls, so it's quite obvious paizo put them in there not out of love or interest for the things...

I mean just look at that never-scaling DC on the blast. one of the lowest reflex DCs in the entire game. Worst in the tech guide, worst of all weapon blast saves in general. And no way of ever bringing it up.

>> No.46229948

>>46229865
Well then pick any of the homebrew classless benefits to doing it, because the basic benefit of a weapon style should never be attached to a class feature to begin with unless it's really nonstandard, and einhanding really, really is not.

>> No.46229967

>>46229880

Much too convoluted.

Also I'd rather raise them than just turn them ya know? The idea is that undeath is just the continuation of life. So if they die I'll just bring them back as undead and continue our journey.

Seems like I'll have to give up on this or request homebrew from the DM if I decide to dabble in this.

>> No.46229972

Is there an alchemist archetype that swaps bombs for a breath weapon?

It seems like it could be a good chassis for a Dragonfire Adept-type class, with Internal Alchemist type "I am turning myself into a dragon/manticore/whatever" theme.

>> No.46229994

What is the most money you've ever dumped on a "fluff" item?

Coming off of that, what's the most you've ever dumped on a building as per Downtime?

>> No.46229995

>>46229937
True, true.

But they're 3d6 damage, non slow-firing, and only take one charge per shot if you're using the nonblast mode. It's one of the less-bad weapons for Vital Strike, if you don't wanna blow 5 charges a shot for an X Laser.

More efficient than pistols or rifles, to be sure.

And... as for the blast, well... Sometimes you need to vaporize a bunch of level 1 commoners I guess.

>> No.46230006

>>46229608
>>46229685
>>46229876

Thanks for the input guys. This is honestly what I was thinking as well, but... as a designer, being too confident in your view and competence is what seems to lead to many of the worst mistakes, so before suggesting errata I wanted to get some extra opinions.


>>46229876
The Light Handbook is definitely going to come to /pfg/ when its ready. Since we've finished editing Divination (oh yeah, the Diviner's Handbook is now out if you guys are interested) I've got more time to put into it at the moment. Maybe I can get it ready for public playtest in a few days?

Also, as it happens, there is indeed a new category of talents called (lens) talents.

>> No.46230031

>>46229865
I'm honestly trying to understand what the fuck your post has to do with mine, and I'm fucking lost.

Are you trying to say that the way to make einhanders viable is to NOT make them work like zweihanders? Because Paizo tried that, and it's shit.

>> No.46230087

>>46229911
>highlighted those
Dude, that WAS an ideal fighter turn. He has Cleave AND Power Attack at level 1, he kills both of the enemies he can POSSIBLY hit in one shot.

But wait, maybe he's an archer, using Rapid Shot! Alright, well, that will bring us up to.. no, wait, still two.

Well, let's see.. We could discard Cleave and introduce TWF, since we're assuming every attack is a hit and every hit is a kill, bringing the ideal kill count up to... shit, it's still two.

Alright, maybe he's a Kasatha! Maybe he has multi-weapon fighting! Alright, now we're talking! That DOUBLES the number we can get, all the way to four!

Which is, you may note, assuming you passed gradeschool math, still smaller than seven.

Please, stop avoiding the point and ignoring me just because you're wrong. Using math, show me an ideal Fighter turn that matches this ideal Wizard turn, or admit you've been blown the fuck out.

>> No.46230108

What's your favorite tier 3 class, or class+archetype, that's not on this list yet?

http://pathgminder.github.io/classes/

>> No.46230129

>>46230087
Obviously senpai you're discounting the exploding collars the fighter is wearing that will deal 2d8 to anyone surrounding him! A masterpiece of encounter design!

>> No.46230143

>>46230129
>actually, the fighter's armor is covered in bear traps

>> No.46230158

>>46230108
you added an extra g to the url
http://pathminder.github.io/classes/

>> No.46230166

>>46230108
>pathgminder
(╯°□°)╯︵ ƃ
http://pathminder.github.io/classes/

>> No.46230176

>>46230108
Aegis ;_;
Definitely Inquisitor. Fucking LOVE me some Inquisitors. Sanctified Slayers especially.

>> No.46230192

>>46230143

Actually, his armor is made up of portable holes leading to a pocket dimension filled with 1,250 bear traps.

>> No.46230199

>>46229839
>>46229865
>>46230031

What's wrong with 1x STR? The most you're going to squeeze out of 1.5x by the endgame is maybe 3-4 damage per hit, which is very negligible, and the payoff is a fighting style that makes parrying and AoO far easier to perform.

And besides, all that "lost damage" is more than made up for with Scarlet Einhander, the Discipline weapon feat, and the numerous strikes and boosts of Scarlet Throne.

A Zweihander Sentinel wielding a one-handed longsword using Scarlet Throne Style is going to be doing equal or more damage than a barbarian of equal level, with far more utility and options.

>> No.46230201

>>46230158
>>46230166
Wow, how the heck did I do that?

Thank you.

>> No.46230228

>>46230192
>the fighter charges
>every square he passes through is left filled with primed bear traps

...Actually, now I want to see this kind of thing as a class feature.

Move through squares and they're turned into traps/difficult terrain, attack enemies and later you can make them blow up for extra damage, whatever.

PoW discipline when?

>> No.46230229

>playing online on skype and roll20 with people i know in RL, it's the second day we play
>DM finds out one player, who is slightly less interactive and somewhat distracted, is playing heroes of the motherfucking storm while playing with us. Last session he was the already the least interactive player, (only slightly distracted in my opinion).
>DM goes " you can't play something so distracted while playing my campaign; it's either my game or that"
>he just leaves the very next second; we lost a player, campaign is somewhat ruined
>later in the night he asks me if he did it right or he has been too quick, intolerant, undiplomatic.

what is your opinion? have you ever been in similar situations?

>> No.46230233

What would make a better nature-based trickster character? A Feyspeaker Druid or a Elusive Wildling Beguiler?

>> No.46230262

>>46230108
Literally any SoP class, but the nature of spheres means you'd have to somehow mark Conjuration and Weather as banned.

>> No.46230268

>>46229717
Did they get rid of the Brutal Stalker? I can't seem to find it anywhere. Because it, possibly combined with Bushi, would be really good to fit this. Big 2-handed weapon but still sort of ninja...ish.

>> No.46230281

>>46230228
Bomberman. The thing you want to play is Bomberman.

>> No.46230303

>>46230268
Brutal Slayer is in Path of War Expanded.

>> No.46230323

>>46230233

That elf is very skinny.

>> No.46230349

>>46230323
I like waifish elves.

>> No.46230386

>>46230201
Psychic Warrior is T3; also has PoW access
I think Tactician is considered same tier as Vitalist, so T3

>> No.46230404

>>46230229

I'd side with the GM on this one. The player may have only seemed "slightly" distracted, but the fact is, he's still not paying attention, which slows down the game and makes things difficult for other people. Not fair to the other players, not fair to the GM.

>> No.46230427

>>46230349

I like it too, anon.

Sometimes it's nice to see a character that isn't meaty or particularly well-endowed.

>> No.46230438

>>46230281
Yes. Yeeeees.

>> No.46230555

>>46230199
A Zweihander Sentinel using a 2H does everything the Zweihander Sentinel using a 1H w/ Scarlet Throne does, but has an extra 1-3 feats. Scarlet Einhander is an good low level stance, but you certainly wouldn't want to use it 1-20.

>>46230268
It's totally in there. When I was rebuilding mine when PoW:E dropped, I legit forgot I was a Bushi and I was sitting there wondering "HOW THE FUCK DID I GET MITHRAL CURRENT, AGAIN?!" Man I felt like a baka.

>> No.46230583

>>46230303
I had the document open and was ctrl-F'ing for brutal stalker, not slayer. Thank you.

>>46229717
Check out the Brutal SLAYER archetype for the stalker. Makes it almost completely dependent on strength. So you can still be rogue-ish but with said fuckhuge sword. Trait out Solar WInd for Scarlet Throne for even more shenanigans.

>> No.46230679

>>46230583
trait out solar wind? why not take the stalker art Lord of War instead and spend the trait on another disc?

>> No.46230708

>>46230555

The point is Scarlet Throne Style lets you one-hand a sword and still be useful.

It's a feat for a fighting style that rarely gets love.

>> No.46230757

>>46230555
>>46230583
>Bushi Brutal Stalker
>quickdrawing a fuckhuge sword
>being a speedy motherfucker and having all these cool stalker things

I really hope these stack, because hot DAMN

>> No.46230767

>>46230708
I mean, yeah. But he specifically stated he's trying to run around with a Claymore. So not only is that suggestion counter to what he wants to do, but it's also straight-up inferior to not using that option at all.

It's fine that you like it, and you're not ruining your character by taking it, but it's literally "Wow, it's fucking nothing" as far as feat investments go. From a flavor standpoint, I totally understand where you're coming from.

>> No.46230769

>>46230176
Added.

No domains, inquisitions, or slayer talents are up yet, but I welcome pull requests to add any.

>> No.46230784

>>46230108
Magus
Sacred Fist archetype Warpriest

>> No.46230787

>>46230708
One thing I noticed that I liked, was that one Vigilante talent was specifically 'the sword and board' talent. Gave you improved shield bash, TWF for shields only, and let you bypass the dex requirements for improved and greater, at the expense of only being able to use them with shields.

>> No.46230822

Would you play a class that was just 1-6 casting that you pick from EVERY class's list?

>> No.46230840

>>46230822
Yes, because between Summoner and Occultist you've got a bevy of 9th-level spells as 6th-level spells.

>> No.46230852

Have you ever had to deal with min-maxers, /pfg/?

Like, the types who build these monstrous specialized characters and promptly never give them a personality?

because I just had to deal with a controller sorcerer like that in my last session, his only time talking was to say that yes, he was in the party.

>> No.46230856

>>46230822
Prepared or Spontaneous?

Spontaneous, sure why not.
Prepared, fuck you.

>> No.46230875

>>46230757
GOOD NEWS CHAIKAFAG. They do.

>>46230769
Neat.

>>46230784
Sacred Fist is now pretty much straight inferior, considering you trade a bunch of shit to be unarmed, unarmored, but you're still a 3/4th BAB d8 HD guy with spells and no decent Flurry-equivalent.

>>46230822
Would be potentially total bullshit, so no.

>> No.46230890

>>46230822
consider that the shaman got the ability to get spells from the wizard list already, and you generally can't get more happy than wizard+cleric list, aside from cheating high level spells into lower slot as >>46230840 said

>> No.46230907

>>46230822
No, and it would be irritating to ask a new player (or just someone who hasn't played at least two of the main casting classes) to even build one because the lists aren't compiled in one mixed list together anywhere. They also very likely end up with mostly spells from one or two lists and there's again a very real possibility that someone who doesn't know what their doing could build themselves a STRICT downgrade of another class with no gain, which is a big no-no.

>> No.46230909

>>46230852
I'm a min-maxer. I build strong characters, but this does not prevent them from having character and depth.

What you are describing is a shitty roleplayer. It is likely that he just doesn't like playing TTRPGs the same way you do. He's not "wrong," he's just not in the right group for his style.

>> No.46230918

So, what do you think it'd feel like to be on the receiving end of an Atonement spell from a follower of each of the Core 20?

I'd imagine it kinda like this.

>Gorum: You can feel the clash of arms ringing across the great battlefield, calling to you. You hear the flash of axes on shields, and witness the swings of greatswords against armor. An ancient instinct stirs in your blood, calling you forward. A sword lays stuck into the ground before you. Will you claim it?

>Shelyn: Music swirls about you as an iridescent display tickles your eyes. A warm, soft sensation grips your entire body, as if you were being tenderly embraced. You have never felt so loved, so cherished, so /acknowledged/ in your entire life. A little bird flits by and offers you a rose. Will you take it?

>Rovagug: Hunger. You feel hunger like you have never felt before. Rage. Hatred. The desire to kill. Your higher thoughts begin to melt away as the brute beast within screams for release. You want to kill. You want to destroy. A town in miniature appears before you, beneath your foot. Will you crush it?

And I'm too lazy to do the other 17.

>> No.46230932

>>46230679
Because it's a waste of a stalker art, especially if you exactly what he wants to do here >>46230757 and pair them, in which case you swap Broken Blade for Mithral Current. Because they can stack. They replace/modify different things.

>> No.46230977

>>46228975
It' KEMONOMIMI, anon.

>> No.46230982

>>46229967
One avenue often overlooked is the custom spell creation aspect of a game. While fairly home brew the rules state magic can be created as long as it is placed in a spell slot of an appropriate level. A character that knows how to create undead as well as revive allies could in theory research a custom spell using their knowledge of both. Creating this spell may require the assistance of a god or demon lord, or may involve researching the spells, getting an idea of how they work and synergizing their effects. The gm can rule the two spells operate under similar principles and is equal to the revival spell needing little research or it could be a 9th level spell with a rare divine focus and costly components.

>> No.46231000

>>46230977
kenomomininomomoino

>> No.46231002

>>46230852
in my opinion it is ok if someone wants to play a class at the best of its ability, as long as he avoids broken stuff and clear abuses, which eventually the DM should ban.

you should just force him to also create a background for him and to roleplay it a bit. it doesn't matter if he put every single skill point into the best possibly optimized skill and then builds a background to explain that. if he can roleplay it's allright.
Ask, Encourage, Force him to roleplay. Start by forcing him to describe his spellcasting in battle and by providing solid reasons for " why i want to be in this group of adventurers".

>> No.46231005

>>46230918
Nethys: You see a path branching before you, disappearing into the mists. Ahead of you, you're already walking down them. Two paths, two of you. One in black, one in white. Which will you follow?

>> No.46231015

>>46231000

>> No.46231036

>>46231005
Motherfucking Nethys, quit this false dichotomy shit.

>> No.46231038

>>46231015
Kimonomimi

>> No.46231084

>>46231015
Kehmamohno
DOOT DOO DO DOO DOO

>> No.46231112

>>46231038
>>46231084

Stop saying it you Baka!

>> No.46231134

What are some good houserules for starting a new campaign? What character creation rules?

>> No.46231165

>>46231134

Power attack and point blank shot are free for those with +1 BAB.

32 PB with PoW material allowed.

>> No.46231176

Does anyone have a link to Ultimate Intrigue pdf, or at least scans of the Vigilante class and archetypes?

>> No.46231177

>>46231134
and 25 point buy

>> No.46231190

>>46230982

I'll keep this in mind if I go forth with the idea, thanks.

>> No.46231209

>>46231112
CHILDWORLD
HILDWORLDC
ILDWORLDCH
LDWORLDCHI
DWORLDCHIL
WORLDCHILD
ORLDCHILDW
RLDCHILDWO
LDCHILDWOR
DCHILDWORL

>> No.46231219

>>46231209
Ugh, stop shitposting, buildposer.

>> No.46231226

>>46231209
Holy shit guys, it's KIDDY LAND!

>> No.46231247

>>46231219
>wheredoyouthinkweare.jpg

>> No.46231250

>Anyone got that Unchained Swashbuckler homebrew handy? Want to try making a character in that vein, and I've heard it's decent.

>> No.46231265

>>46231176
http://imgur.com/a/kudp9

>> No.46231290

>>46231247
I'd say hell, but that was last thread with all the shit bait being taken.

>> No.46231310

>>46231265

thanks

>> No.46231312

>>46230918
>Calistria: You feel wounded, attacked, whether by slights real or imagined. Your heart cries out for justice, for retribution, for vengeance in the name of yourself or others who were wronged. A passing bee hums into your ear the means by which you might make things right. Shall you?
>Desna: The vast ocean of black stretches out above you, small lights gleaming and beckoning. The sense of scale inspires awe as much as it staggers with a feeling of smallness. All of your worldly cares seem so insignificant in comparison. A shooting star stands out among the rest, pointing the way to your next journey. Will you follow it?

>> No.46231313

>>46230233
If you want to be a less good druid with delayed wildshaping and a small handful of tricky spells (for the most part that's all you'll need) go druid. If you want to be a stealthy spellcaster with a magical pet and not a lot of nature magic, go beguiler (and make sure you pick up the playtest version with the magical beast companion).

>> No.46231349

>>46230108
Beguiler.

>> No.46231372

>>46231176

I wanna fuck that wolf.

>> No.46231403

>>46231226

That video was 10 years ago, anon.

>> No.46231426

>Vigilante social talent

WOW it's like they're forcing me to want to archetype out

>> No.46231509

>>46231176
>>46231265
>>46231310
Having gone through and ordered the current screenies, it seems that we're currently missing class/archetype pages 20-25, 28-31, 40-53, and anything after 70.

IN CASE ANY SUBSCRIBER/TROVE PEOPLE ARE ABOUT, HINT HINT but no rush tho

>> No.46231532

>>46231426
Wanna like, specify which talent you're referring to?

>> No.46231538

>>46230918
>Asmodeus: You see the world corrupted, vile, degenerate. Nothing is quite like you know it should be like, and you notice a quiet, yet wrathful fire burning inside. You feel the power to remold the world as you see fit near your hands. Will you grasp it?

>> No.46231544

>>46231134
require background and solid reason for everyone to be in a group; require some minumum of roleplaying.

if you fear your player trying to break the game banning master summoner and overpowered feats such as divine geometry. honestly you can just ask yourplayers beforehand if they are going to take some feats/item/option of questionable power level and decide case by case.

as for houserules it really depends on the campaign and what your palyers want.
this is a variant rule i would allow so your warrior won't get stuck with being boring out of combat http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills
i would suggest you to not bother counting experience points unless you want to use them as a reward for good roleplaying.
many mundane character builds are inhibited by long feat chains; there are no good solutions as far as i know but i heard some people using this; i would suggest it only if player were frustrated by feats http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/.
i would allow player to create odd enhancement bonuses magical items such as a +1 belt of giant strenght.
if you have many players and you fear them dying you should allow the retraining rules: players can spend few golds to maximize the hit dice they get every level.

>character creation
20 point buy.2 traits(you might want to disallow the initiative and utilize magical devices traits).standard races, you should allow any class and archetype in the main paizo bookline.
please do not roll dices for character creation. at best it leads to overpowered characters that are a bit harder to balance, at worst someone might not be able to make his class work but you won't be able to ease down encounter difficulty because he is in the party with people who got lucky and are really strong.

pathfinder is a bit extreme at level 1 and at very high level, which are domainated by strong spellcasters. probably level 2-10 are a solid choice for a diverse party.

>> No.46231572

>>46230918
>>46231005
>>46231312
>>46231538

>Irori: A still, silent pool appears before you. Gazing into it, you see a reflection of yourself, as you might have been were you to make the proper choices. As you still could be. Yourself, perfected. A simple garment rises up from the pool, the water undisturbed, and floats over to you. Will you accept it?

>Abadar: The gates of a great city appear before you. As they open, the gilded streets and perfect rows of houses promise peace, safety, and wealth. They beckon to your spirit, which recoils from the frightful wilds behind you. As the spears of the two guards turn away to open the path to you... will you enter?

>Gozreh: You find yourself sitting on the shoreline. The sea-breeze wafts against your face, and the waves lap at your feet. Behind you, the calls and cries of joyous beasts beckon you to join them in their frolicking. A stone rises beneath your feet, and the water calls. Will you dive in and join them?

>Sarenrae: The sun shines above you, caressing your flesh in its light and heat. There is the sense of warm sand beneath your bare feet. You kneel as your guilt and regret begins to fade, for you know that you are forgiven. Your eyes are drawn to the sun in the sky. Will you lift your hands in praise?

>> No.46231580

>>46231165
I'd go a little further. Saw a campaign a guy posted where basically feats that are part of a tax-feat chain automatically award the later feat when you meet the prereqs (so, like, TWF grants ITWF/GTWF once you meet the ability and BAB prereqs, Weapon Focus offers Weapon Specialization and then GWF and GWS, Improved [Maneuver] becomes Greater [Maneuver], etc)

As someone who hates tax feats, this appeals to me greatly.

>> No.46231596

>>46231532

Pretty much any of them; the ones that are useful are almost all "you must be level 15" to take this or w/e

>> No.46231601

>>46231426

The vigilante is one of the greatest classes Paizo has released in the past decade.

Not only is it a competent class in and of itself, it's also a class that excels at the most important of class functions; narrative power. Unlike most other classes, the vigilante is able to go about situations a variety of ways; want to be a talker? The vigilante is good at that. Want to be an adorable magical user? It can do that. Want to be a brutal fighter and monster of the night? You guessed it, the vigilante can do that too!

Paizo have their problems, but the vigilante isn't one of them.

>> No.46231612

>>46230918
>Sivanah: You hear a voice echoing in the void. It speaks to you... Well, well well. It seems as though you have once again, despite your best efforts, become a pawn in one of my rather elaborate ruses, and it seems as though the end result of said ruse has left your state being of a lesser quality than before you had dealt the card hidden up my sleeve while being none the wiser. And yes, while it is true that you will eventually recover from this recent turn of events, it remains unclear whether your social status on this website will remain at its current level, or if it will take a turn for the worse. After all is said is done, at the end of the day, you will have to accept the fact that you just got the short end of the deal. I hold no remorse or regret for I am and always shall be a master ruseman.

>> No.46231621

>>46231601

Just like Swashbuckler

>> No.46231657

>>46231601
>low T3 at the absolute best
>implying it has lots of narrative power
top kek
is this the new

C H A R M E D L I F E
H
A
R
M
E
D

L
I
F
E

>> No.46231675

>>46231426
Also, I don't think any of the archetypes swap out social talents. They all trade out the vigilante talents.

>> No.46231687

>>46231580
>http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/

>> No.46231709

>>46231675

That sucks

Also, why does Vigilante make such a nice monk? +15 unarmed damage if you play your cards right

>> No.46231731

>>46231509
Missing pages 66, 68, and 69 as well. Which have the occultist archetype and oracle mystery. Which I want bad.

>> No.46231744

>>46231709
And full BAB.

It's cuz Vigilante is actually pretty nice.

>> No.46231748

>>46229743
This...this is an interesting question. I'm not in a position to answer it right now, as I am at work; however, I'm going to talk to the bosses about it ASAP and get with you on the results.

>> No.46231769

Don't hide it from me, /pfg/.
Tell me about your homebrew deific obediences and boons for minor gods.

>> No.46231801

>>46231313
Thanks anon. Have you got a link to that playtest, I'd like to check it out?

>> No.46231812

>>46231744

Shit, Vigilante gets Greater Vital Strike AOO

>> No.46231829

>>46231769

I like the "gotta fuck someone" obedience that one Empyreal Lord has.

Not the "orgasm from wind" one, the straight up "have sex with someone" one.

>> No.46231855

>>46231748
Hey Gareth, you didn't answer me last thread so I'd like to ask again
How did you feal about those Discipline ideas in the last thread?
Would you like me to post them again, if you didn't see them the first time?

>> No.46231859

>>46231829
Isn't that part of Calistria's obedience, too? Fuck somebody for money, information, or favors.

>> No.46231862

>>46231769
Why would anyone bother homebrewing those, tbqh? You don't get any unique stuff out of them until 16 HD, and nobody plays that far in without knowing exactly what their build is.

Also, we got Sivanah's obedience in ISF leaks.
>Carry an ordinary scarf or veil and walk through a settlement, making sure you are seen and exchange pleasantries with at least one person. After you reach the settlement’s edge, place the scarf or veil over your face so you aren’t easily recognizable, and again speak with anyone you encountered before. If your true identity is recognized, you must deny it, providing a false name if necessary.

>> No.46231886

>>46231687
Also good.

I'm working on a premise for a campaign right now that basically casts the players as secret agents in a collapsing fantasy!Roman empire, working against the 'legitimate' government to try and save the Empire: the Praetorian Guards have seized Imperial authority because the succession is in crisis, and the various noble houses are too busy spending the Legions in internecine warfare to get their shit together and deal with barbarians to the north and Not!Persia to the south.

>> No.46231936

>>46231855
I've been at work. Patience, friend.

Though I'll warn you, I'm a hard sell when it comes to disciplines.

>> No.46231959

>>46231859

Calistria is "fuck someone for money, favors or information," yeah.

I remember more about the other one, it's "have sex with someone and give them compliments about their performance or body." It's the sweetest thing.

>> No.46232017

>>46231687
Can we go further? Can we go better? Can we finally kill how awful feats are in Pathfinder and make them something worth taking and being excited to get more of?

>> No.46232027

>>46231829
>What diefic obediences do you like
>lol sex
Never change pfg

>> No.46232029

>Cabalist and Warlock Vigilantes can hide invisible wands in their hands and shoot out stuff from them

That's kinda neet

>> No.46232044

>>46232027
>>46231859
>>46231959

Found it!

>Achieve sexual release by yourself or with one or more partners. Praise the most beautiful aspects of yourself and any partners aloud, and offer a prayer to Arshea while still naked. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks when interacting with an intelligent creature who could be sexually attracted to you.

>> No.46232053

>>46231886
The campaign I'm launching is set a couple hundred years after the collapse of the fantasy!Roman empire, where they're exploring the New World as part of one of six Expeditions to celebrate the one hundred year anniversary of this stable Kingdom.

Far to the West, there's that fantasy!Byzantine Empire, but all throughout fantasy!Europe it's savages, barbarism, chaos, and bloody crusades of new Gods.

>> No.46232054

>>46232029
I think Staves are spell-trigger too.

>> No.46232069

>>46232044
>with an intelligent creature who could be sexually attracted to you
>so...mr. old fat DM...does the princess think I'm hot? Do I get the bonus?
Why is this game so creepy

>> No.46232074

>>46232029
I imagine neither is compatible with Magical Child, right? Fuck me for wanting to be a blaster mahou shoujo.

>> No.46232105

>>46231936
So do you need me to repost them, or can you find them again on your own?

>> No.46232121

>>46232069

Anon, odds are this means any intelligent creature of the opposite sex.

Also, I like how it says you can gain the boon through masturbation while praising an aspect of your body, it makes me imagine a Cleric of Arshea just jerking it behind some bushes late at night while crying about how "hot his abs are."

>> No.46232148

What are you supposed to do with Warlock Vigilante?

3x 1d6+5 damage attacks are pretty pathetic at level 20, even if you spend feats on TWF 6x 1d6+5 isn't much better

Why does this ability exist if it's so useless?

>> No.46232187

>>46231801
>http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmqe&page=11?Beguiler-conversion-for-Pathfinder#523

>> No.46232201

>>46232105
Repost them, or links to them, once I'm home if you'd be so kind.

>> No.46232202

>>46230875
>>46230932
>Bushi and Brutal Slayer stack
>finally my dreams of being speedy muscle man can be achieved
>nobody will ever know that I'm muscular because I'll be wearing loose, baggy clothing so I can hide all my tools and shit
>mfw the inevitable scene of "holy fucking shit man, THIS is what you look like under all that?"
>mfw that will never happen because I'll never ever get to play a Brutal Bushi

>> No.46232210

>>46232148
Don't forget you're also getting your elemental effect. Flaming, etc.

Also, you can Deadly Aim them if you don't make them hit touch.

>> No.46232259

>>46232210

>elemental effect

Only at high levels if you spend one of your talents for that

>if you don't make them hit touch

But then you're hitting with shitty BAB and you don't get any +hit bonuses

>> No.46232287

>>46232201
One more question:

Take a look at the Pathwalker archetype description for Psychic Warrior.

It seems confused about whether you get the associated class skills for your known disciplines automatically, or if you only get them by selecting a path for it.

The former seems to be how most everything else works, but if it's that, then the listed paths give you class skills that you already have as class skills just by knowing the discipline.

>> No.46232291

Is it possible to kill an Empyreal Lord?

Can I realistically kill Atatatatakek, the God of Manta-Rays?

>> No.46232322

>>46232259
You're also forgetting the damage boost from Arcane Strike itself.

>> No.46232330

>>46232148
All weapon feats can potentially apply to them, as well as Arcane Strike. Take archery feats, and you're basically a sling-user who doesn't need Str for damage and can ignore all DR (and you have multiple energy types available from 7th on, so resistance and immunity should be a minimal issue).

Remember, using touch excludes you from Power Attack and Deadly Aim, but not from Precise/Rapid Shot. You may as well take DA for extra damage when hitting won't be an issue, but you can use it or not as you please and Arcane Striker should keep up the balance.

>> No.46232331

>>46232201
Alright, I'll repost them. Just take your time and don't feel pressured to look till your home and ready.

The idea was making Discipline ideas for all the non-claimes skills.

>Swim
Walking Tide. A Discipline that focuses on mobility, charges, and repositioning enemies. Also aids in underwater combat, and is based vaguely off of Jeet Kun Doh. Weapon groups are Monk, Spears, and Flails

>Climb
Grinding Glacier. Defensive style, that focuses on keeping close to enemies, grapples, and deflecting attacks. Weapon Groups are Close, Axes, and Hammers

>Knowledge (Engineering)
Golden Architect. Supernatural. A math focused discipline that puts emphasis on sundering and bypassing defenses. Weapon Groups are Thrown, Hammers, and Improvised Weaponry

>Disable Device
Finger of Havoc. Focuses on Sunder, steal, trips, disarming, and sabatoging enemy actions. High in counters. Weapon Groups are Close, Light Blades, Crossbows, and Firearms

>Escape Artist
Formless Wisp. Supernatural. Emphasis on combat mobility, attacks of opportunity, and anti-flanking maneuvers. High level stuff includes turning into phantom or misty forms. Weapon Groups are Close, Light Blades, and Heavy Blades.

>Disguise
Pale Masquerade. Honestly not too sure. Not even sure if it should be supernatural or not. I guess it'd be like Shattered Mirror, but the opposite somehow. Could probably work well with feints. Weapon Groups could be Close, Double, and Improvised Weaponry.

>Handle Animal
Velvet Lash. Supernatural, it focuses on restricting enemies while also giving bonuses to Ally actions and movements. Weapon Groups are Flails, Spears, and Polearms

>Appraise
Gilded Eye. Supernatural. Focuses on creating and manipulating "supply and demand" of the battlefield. Includes granting temporary HP and points to people's different pools, balancing out the strengths of allies and enemies, and redirection. Can also use coins as weapons. Weapon Groups include Bows, Thrown, and Polearms

>page 1/2

>> No.46232377

>>46232291
They have stats, so yes. Not terribly easily, and it won't have reality-changing side effects since they aren't real gods, but it's certainly doable.

>> No.46232419

>>46232377

Didn't Sarenrae used to be an Empyreal Lord?

You could say I'm doing the universe a favor by aborting gods in the celestial womb.

>> No.46232424

So I was thinking, somebody should make a PsyArm blade skill or blade skills that let you replicate the function of low-cost magic items, or maybe let you create temporary versions of nonmagical items up to a given gp value.

Basically, Green Lantern Junior type power.

>> No.46232432

>>46232331
>>46232201
>Part 2

>Use Magic Device
Diamond Butterfly. Supernatural, this discipline is a bit different. It specializes in granting equipment Enhancement bonuses, transferring Qualities between weapons and armor in your possession, and even chaining, linking, and using magic items with your Weapon. Weapon Groups are Double Weapons, Monk Weapons, and you can use Staffs, Wands, and Rods as Discipline Weapons.

>Linguistics
Iron Tongue. Not sure what to do here. Feels like it would have too much overlap with Golden Lion and Scarlet Throne. Could possibly be paired with Craft (calligraphy) to make a fruity writing-themed discipline. Weapon Groups would be Light Blades, Polearms, and Spears.

Anyway, these were the Homebrew Discipline ideas I bad for filling out the other skills. I was also planning on maybe doing more based off the Knowledge skills that haven't been grabbed, but I'm still working on those ideas

>> No.46232541

Sneak Attack Vigilante or Full BAB Vigilante, /pfg/?

I wish Avenger could take the talent that lets you tag enemies for AOOs

>> No.46232581

>>46232541
Honestly, the fact that both have really neat things is a sign of good design.

>> No.46232643

>>46231612
>>46231572
>Cayden Cailean: The air is heavy with the scent of grain and liquor. You feel a pleasant buzzing in your head and the slight weight of a mug in your hand. All around you is a wide-open space, full of bonfires and revelry. You breathe in the air again. You have never felt so free in your entire life. A jovial young lass comes to you bearing a fresh mug. What do you say - will you have another drink?

>Iomedae: A mighty castle stands before you, banners flying high above the road. Those that wave now bear the sigil of a shining blade set against the light of the sun. Another banner covers the casket carried by a slow procession of proud knights. Though they are clearly in mourning, there is a sense among them that they will follow the path the man in the casket set out for them. You follow the casket, and its banner bearing a great eye, towards the castle gates. One of the knights looks to you and points to a rider-less horse. Another offers you a blade and shield. The man's work is far from done. Will you take up arms?

>Torag: You feel the invigorating heat of a mighty forge about you. Everywhere, on every wall, hand weapons and armor and shields crafted so ornately that they capture the starlight and make it their own. The sun and moon you find meshed in crowns of twisted wire. Directly before you, at the back wall, a great carving depicts an ancient history, stretching back millennia to when the world was young. At the base of the carving, representing the beginning, is a hammer. It is exquisite, and it seems like it would fit your hand perfectly. You feel stronger, more disciplined, and more creative just looking at it. Will you take up the hammer?

>Pharasma: A chill falls over you - but it is a pleasant chill, one that soothes and relaxes you. Above you flows a great river, twirling about in a perfect circle. You see the planes, in perfect balance, in precise and fair judgement. A soft bed of flowers lies beneath you. Will you rest?

>> No.46232648

>>46232581
At least a step in the right direction.

>> No.46232740

>>46232581

If Pathfinder 2.0 had all of the base classes built from Vigilante up I'd be impressed

>> No.46232750

Anybody ever played the higher RP races like Wyvaran or Trox?

>> No.46233023

>>46232643
Who are we still missing? Is it:

>Erastil
>Urgathoa
>Lamashtu
>Norgorber
>Zon-Kuthon

>> No.46233096

Anybody have a PDF of Inner Sea Faiths, or a link to the leaked images?

>> No.46233107

>>46232541
Personally I like the Sneak Attack one. But mostly cause I like the feel of Inspiration/Rogue Talents etc.

>> No.46233136

>>46232331
>Swim
>Walking Tide. A Discipline that focuses on mobility, charges, and repositioning enemies. Also aids in underwater combat, and is based vaguely off of Jeet Kun Doh. Weapon groups are Monk, Spears, and Flails

Throw in something about powerful lungs

>> No.46233152

>>46230386
>Psychic Warrior

Added.
http://pathminder.github.io/classes/psychic-warrior/
http://pathminder.github.io/classes/psychic-warrior-pathwalker/

>> No.46233245

>>46233107

>Foe Collision
>Leave an Opening
>Mighty Ambush
>Twisting Fear

Fuck

>> No.46233272

>>46233096
Not even images from it yet. There's a fair chunk of text from it on the Paizo forums, though.
>http://paizo.com/products/btpy9j74/discuss&page=6?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Inner-Sea-Faiths#tabs

>> No.46233352

Take two levels in Vigilante. Get Deadly Grace. Take a few in Weapon Master Fighter. Get Fighter's Finesse. Get Dueling Gloves. Take rest of levels in Vigilante.

So you've got x1.5 your strength, +3 to hit and damage from weapon training, and then +8 damage from lethal grace.

>> No.46233373

>>46233136
Actually, I intended for Walking Tide to be a mundane Discipline. Though utilizing proper breathing technique and skill for a boost would be a good idea.

I don't really plan on making these myself though, I don't trust myself or my design skill. I was just brainstorming ideas and inspiration.

I will say though, a good gimmick for the Discipline though would be "Undertow", where certain Maneuvers would have different effects or boost while performing them while swimming in water.

Sane with Grinding Glacier and Climbing, though I guess the ability for it would be called "Avalanche"

>> No.46233463

>>46233373
Mundane doesn't mean it shouldn't be extraordinary.

>> No.46233475

Vigilante gets all the Blind Fight feats for the cost of only a single talent, giving them super easy access to Blinded Blade Style

That said, is Blinded Blade Style worth even bothering with?

>> No.46233500

>>46233023
Guess it's up to me.

>Erastil: You find yourself swaddled in a thick cloth, sitting beside a warm hearth. A bowl of thick stew lies in front of you. You're not quite sure who the children sitting at your feet are, or whom it is that just handed you a trencher and is pouring a serving of stew into it just for you, but you have the nagging sense that these people are very close to your heart. The more you watch them, the more everything outside this little home ceases to matter. They're your whole world, and you wouldn't have it any other way. The stew is still warm, and these people. Your family. They're huddled up against you now, sharing their warmth. Will you take a bite?

>Urgathoa: You awaken in a den of sin and debauchery. Pleasures of the flesh, for every taste and part of the body, lay all around. The air is thick with the pallor of illness. Everything here feels so /wrong/ - but so /good./ The fetid air itself seems to lick rapturously at your skin, and a ravenous desire builds up within you. The finest foods, the most satisfying partners, the silkiest fabrics - you want it all, in this life and forever after. Your throat begins to feel dry, and a fountain makes itself apparent at the end of the room. The smell is metallic - bloody, even - but the feel on your hand is like a fine wine. Will you take a sip?

>> No.46233540

>>46233475
Seems like it takes a long time to come online

>> No.46233566

>>46233023
Not him, but

>Erastil
>You are standing near a well kept hearth. You smell the welcoming aroma of a home cooked stew, in a crock pot over the fire, and a sense of welcome and acceptance fills you. A fatherly old man sits in a chair by the fire, carving out what appears to be a child's toy from a piece of bone. He looks sternly into your eyes and cracks a small smile, pleased by your presence, and motions for you to take a seat in the chair across from his and try some of the stew. Will you rest from your troubles?

>> No.46233578

>>46231829
Now imagine a PC Evangelist with that.>>46231829

>> No.46233630

>>46233463
I said that because I didn't want it to become Sonic water breath like in your pic.

Being able to hold your breath for a long time? Sure. Being able to expell Miasma and clouds from around you for a while? Also acceptable. Full on Breath weapons though, are a bit much.

>> No.46233686

>>46233630
That's not water breath. The character in the pic has super-powerful lungs due to being an expert swimmer, meaning they can hold their breath for hours and shout so forcefully that they can blow things away.

>> No.46233710

>>46233500
>Lamashtu: You feel your flesh begin to twist and warp. At first, it is painful beyond belief. You've never felt so horrible before. And yet, after a while you feel nothing but an intense pleasure. Your arms take on a reach and a strength the "pure" could never dream of. Your clawed feet are fleeter and hug the ground more securely. Your fangs can rend flesh from bone. Your form is the true perfection of flesh, of desire, and of blissful madness. Small, misshapen creatures gather around you - your fledgling brood. A wicked smile creeps across your distended snout. Will you feed them?

>Norgorber: Shadow falls upon you. You feel invisible, invincible. Nobody can see you. They can't touch you. You could do whatever you want! Poison them. Rob them. /Kill/ them. No one will know, and no one will care until you put on the mask. The mask is in your hand. Will you wear it?

>> No.46233761

>>46232331
I'm gonna note that I don't find the idea of making a discipline for every skill appealing in itself. If we were heading that route, we woulda gone there with some of the discs we wrote already.

I should also note that I'm speaking from the perspective of publishing here, not their worth as potential homebrew, and that I am currently A. biased and B. exhausted. Please bear with me; I do not intend to insult.

> Walking Tide.
Could be interesting, sounds at risk of overlapping with Primal Fury. Not enthused by Undertow.

> Grinding Glacier.
> Grapples
Reeeeeeeeee.

> Golden Architect.
Ehhh. This feels like it'd struggle to find its own voice.

> Finger of Havoc.
> Sunder
You know better and I know you know better. The rest could actually be pretty cool.

> Formless Wisp.
Feels overlappy with Veiled Moon but could be cool, if tricky to balance.

> Pale Masquerade.
Get back to me when there's a more solid idea here.

> Velvet Lash.
So Golden Lion with a bondage fetish? I could dig.

> Gilded Eye.
This sound a lot more plausible than the dosh disc in terms of concept but also tricky to execute elegantly.

> Diamond Butterfly
I'm gonna let you tell me why this idea isn't workable. Not bad, per se, but wholly unrealistic in terms of publishing or gameplay outside of, perhaps, idiosyncratic games.

> Iron Tongue.
See comment on Disguise disc.

>> No.46233771

>>46232331
>>46233136
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Fishman_Karate

One Piece went really in-depth with how a martial art designed by aquatic creatures would translate to land.

>> No.46233782

>>46233710
what about zun-kuthon?

>> No.46233801 [SPOILER] 

>>46233710
>and no one will care until you put on the mask

>> No.46233803

>>46233761
>
If you were speaking from the prospect of homebrew, where would it fall? Do you like homebrew discs?

Fuck off about the grappling, man. Find someone else to write a disc that supports grab attacks.

>> No.46233855

>>46233803
I like and appreciate homebrew. I was a 'brewer for a long time before I ever got published and still do homebrew stuff; it's great for things that are too narrow or maybe too idiosyncratic to publish, but are best executed in a particular niche in terms of bringing their idea to life. Almost any of those could be a pretty good homebrew disc idea, except Diamond Butterfly.

Grapples reeeeeeeeee

>> No.46233875

>>46233855
>Diamond Butterfly

Color me intrigued only for my deathly fear of Butterflies.

>> No.46233920

>>46233855
So if I wrote a grappling discipline based on angels grappling slaad, what would you think

>> No.46233947

>>46233920
Why would anyone WANT to grapple a slaad? Why are good creatures grappling chaotic creatures?

>> No.46233965

>>46233920
"What in all nine flaming hells made the servants of the NG and LG gods - fuck, are the CG angels in on this? - have to grapple slaad so much, and have such a rough time of it, that they developed an entire martial art based around suplexing frog-men?"

>> No.46233966

>>46233920
>angels grappling slaad
what

>> No.46233991

What was your bleakest moment in Pathfinder?

>> No.46234028

>>46233782
>Zon-Kuthon: You have never hurt so much in your life. Your skin is gone. Your flesh is bound in spiked chains. Every orifice is pierced with nails of iron. Your screams echo into the unending darkness for what feels like years. Your screams turn to sobs, and then fall silent. Somehow, this is your new normal. You don't remember what it was like to have skin, or unmutilated flesh. Your eyes open, the shadows parting before you. You can feel a mad cackle of ecstasy crawling up your throat. Will you let it out?

>> No.46234123

>>46233991
Realizing that my GM probably won't pick up on the backstory hooks I'm leaving for my Inquis.

>> No.46234173

>>46233991
The GM for my two-years-running roll20 campaign suddenly vanishing off the face of the earth with no warning. It was the best game I'd ever had ;-;

>> No.46234181

>>46233991
When my party made a song parody of Love in an Elevator for my druid called Sex with an Alligator.

>> No.46234194

>>46233991
I read Emerald Spire all the way through and tallied all the levels that I'd need to edit or replace wholesale.

>> No.46234209

What mortal has/had the shittiest life in all of Golarion?

What's the fucking worst thing that can happen to you on Golarion short of death, soul gem collection, etc?

>> No.46234228

>>46233991
When I bought the strategy guide, at least I have every hardcover.....

>> No.46234249

>>46234209
Well, Zyphus was canonically the first mortal ever to die a completely and utterly meaningless death, and was so pissed when he found out that he spontaneously ascended to godhood from sheer existential anger.

>> No.46234254

>>46234194
What did you replace?

Care to share notes?

I recall you had an issue with the box level, though I don't recall what.

>> No.46234256

>>46234228
Strategy guide?

>> No.46234264

>>46234194
All of them?

>>46234209
Probably Zyphus.

>> No.46234293

>>46234254
My players read this thread, sadly.

>> No.46234298

>>46230875
Sacred Fist is still reasonably T3ish, right?

>> No.46234316

>>46234209
>What mortal has/had the shittiest life in all of Golarion?

For some reason the first three people that came to mind when I saw this question was Nadya Petska, Nualia Tobyn and the Paladin from Book 1 of Hell's Vengeance.

Nadya lost her husband to a troll attack, lost a daughter, and can potentially lose one of her twins. Nualia was always the town freak, got knocked up by some loser, had a miscarriage, and spent the rest of her life in blinding rage. The Paladin was a street urchin that got involved with Zon-Kuthon and only found peace behind a mask as a Paladin of Iomedae, and in her dying moments will see everything she accomplished crumble to dust.

Oh, and there's that woman from Book 2 of Reign of Winter; got knocked up by a satyr as a young teen, was forced to be a single mother and village outcast for most of her teens and 20s, and when she finally found love in the arms of a woodsman, he got brutally slain by the satyr's friends.

>> No.46234338

>>46234298
>Sacred Fist is still reasonably T3ish
It went from great, to okay, to fucking shit tier.

>> No.46234384

>>46234298
If you use Unchained flurry instead of standard flurry it's still alright.

>> No.46234389

>>46233991
Realizing that my weekly game being literally the only time I get to see these particular friends is, apparently, more important to me than having a game that I actually enjoy playing.

No roleplaying, pure hack 'n' slash combat from a GM that still doesn't really know the system (and ignores those of us that do know half the time, despite this game ostensibly being about him learning the system), a fully randomized dungeon including randomized wandering monsters that leads to stupid shit like three minotaurs trapped in a 5'x20' room, and - after months of no story at all - the only attempt at a story is "the dungeon is now devil-themed... in that all the monsters are devils now, but nothing else has changed".

I quit out of frustration for a few weeks, but when the GM invited me back, it turned out I missed my friends more than I hated playing in this campaign.

>> No.46234393

>>46234338
>>46234338
why? some FAQ shit?

>> No.46234398

>>46234298
No.

>>46234393
Yeah, errata shat on it.

>> No.46234521

So, is the best Unarmed fighter now a Fighter (Brawler ) 4/Vigilante 16, or Fighter (Brawler, Eldritch Gaurdian) 4/Magical Child 16.

>> No.46234532

>>46234521
It's either Steelfist Commando or Monk of the Silver Fist.

>> No.46234616

>>46234521
Worth noting, Brawler's Close Combatant includes gauntlets, and Fist of the Avenger works with unarmed, or gauntlets. So you can use gauntlets and enchant them and be fine.

>> No.46234795

>>46234521
Warlord 20 with Broken Blade.

>> No.46234824

>>46234521

What was the final opinion on the Magical Child? I know some people were not too happy about the Summoner spell list, but does it look like it'd be any fun to play?

>> No.46234839

>>46234532
I don't know man, Going Oraora as a magical child with your mauler quasit or earth elemntal pal (looking between 28-30 str pre buffing) that shares all of your combat feats seems pretty good, plus some mediocre spell casting.

>> No.46234843

>>46234824
>but does it look like it'd be any fun to play?

Hell yeah! It's a very fun class with a nice flavor.

>> No.46234880

>>46234824
It just doesn't really do anything Magical-Girl-like. It's fine if you want to be a summoner-vigilante with a eidolon-familiar, but actual magical girl characters will do better with Warlock or Psychometrist.

>> No.46234956

>>46234824

It's not too impressive on a mechanical level, being a pet class without a particularly effective pet, but it could be a fun addition to a campaign.

>> No.46235094

>>46232331
I know I was looking at Disguise as a Magical Girl/Tokusatsu Henshin Powers discipline for a while. Perhaps draw on that?

>> No.46235122

>>46230229
That player was a cunt, but that is sadly a risk of playing via an online medium

>> No.46235159

>I want 15 PB
>I don't want any stats below 8
>I'm doing this because I want to force the party into working together

>> No.46235193

>decide to allow path of war
>player does some maneuver bullshit where he can punch twice at full BAB as a standard action
>destroys the monsters every time, every combat just gets one rounded by him
>if they don't get two shotted he just grapples them almost always automatically and everyone else destroys it
Why should I allow this again?

>> No.46235223

>>46235193

Now you realize why Path of War is known as overPoWered here, it's really kinda shit.

>> No.46235224

>>46235193
You could always readjust the monsters to give a greater challenge.

You could even give the monsters maneuvers of their own.

Think about it.

Owlbear. With. Primal Fury.

>> No.46235230

>>46235193

So basically, he can do something roughly equivalent to TWF?

Show us his sheet.

Also
>Grappling
>PoW
Pick one. PoW doesn't actually have grapple synergy, that's entirely 1pp stuff.

>> No.46235237

>>46235193
Because you're DOING IT WRONG!

Obviously, you need to give the MONSTERS PoW as well, or you're being a bad DM you scrub!

>> No.46235238

>>46235193
Because errata's due. For now, pretend Broken Blade and Primal Fury don't exist. Perhaps allow the playtest versions of Piercing Thunder and Mithral Current in their place.

>> No.46235262

>>46235237
To be fair I expect he would be having the same problems if the guy was playing an optimized martial.

PoW just has a floor of "competent" without having to jump through a million hoops to do it.

>> No.46235263

>>46235230
He's a Fiendbound Marauder Warder who gets the Grab ability so yeah, he does grapple shit.

>> No.46235270

>>46235193
>grappling
>PoW
Pick one and only one.

>attack twice at full BAB
So TWF?

What level are you?

>> No.46235271

>>46235193
Because it's better than having Wizards circumvent encounters entirely and buggering back to their demiplane.

Also, youre a shot DM. Give enemies manuevers of their own, have them be more than just beating dummies, and remember that Quantity is a quality all on its own.

Also, recheck your player's math and actually read and learn the rules yourself you lazy sot.

>> No.46235293

>>46235262
And so if you have any idea what you're doing, you break things in half with one flex of your asscheeks.

>> No.46235304

>>46235270
>attack twice at full bab as a standard action
That's not how TWF works at all. Come on, even real buildposter isn't that dumb.

>> No.46235333

>>46235293

To be fair, that's how the game already works for magic, so.

>> No.46235335

>>46235237
>>46235271
>including a system requires the monsters to also be using the system because otherwise it's too powerful
You don't see a problem with this?

>> No.46235337

>>46235293
>And so if you have any idea what you're doing, you break things in half with one flex of your asscheeks.
Welcome to Pathfinder

>> No.46235341

>>46235304
The -2 penalty is mostly irrelevant unless you built like shit.

>> No.46235342

>>46235293
They aren't Wizards. They have nowhere near as much narrative control to do that.

>> No.46235349

>>46235304
Pretty much just snapkick

>> No.46235370

>>46235293
That is literally applicable to any class, including Commoner.

>> No.46235389

Question for you guys on a homebrew race:

-2 str, +2 to one attribute of your choice.
Large size

I'm worried that it forces every "uses AoOs a lot" build to use this race, which I don't want to do.

>> No.46235406

>>46235335
You don't need to but it helps. Using monsters at full HP, better tactics, and more mooks always helps.

I mean really, most martial characters are 1/2 shotting most monsters anyway. How is this any different?

>> No.46235408

>>46235342
It's possible to be overpowered without having narrative control you know.

>>46235333
The solution to a broken game is not letting the other half of people break it too.

>>46235335
I was being sarcastic.

>> No.46235423

>>46235335
When it's a lot more interesting than 'I full attack'? Not really, no.

PoW combat is significantly more interesting and active than Pathfinder's default combat. I'd give my monsters Path of War access even if none of my players were initiators. Because it's good, and interesting, and makes them threatening and unusual.

>> No.46235434

>>46235335
You don't need the monster to have them, especially if the monsters already have magical capabilities. Just the martial NPCs, since really you shouldn't be using any other system for martial characters period.

Plus, having enemies actually fight intelligently, and possibly ganging up on them, doesn't require optimization in the system, it requires the GM to not be a lazy gamist chucklefuck

>> No.46235439

>>46235270
I'm looking at his sheet now. He has a maneuver that does this
>The disciple of the Broken Blade learns to maximize openings in his opponent's defenses and makes lightning fast attacks whenever possible. As a standard action, the initiator may make two attacks at his full base attack bonus.
Does that sound like two-weapon fighting to you?

>> No.46235440

>>46235193
I learned this through experience: don't allow PoW if you don't want a higher power game than usual.

>> No.46235485

>>46235337
>>46235342
>>46235370
I would love to see your "fucks the whole monster manual over it's kneee at level 3+" wizard builds. While theoretically incredibly powerful, Schrodinger's wizard is still one mistake away from dead in most fights.

I find it funny that a common "fix" is just giving everything +30% hp as if it doesn't nerf every other damage-dealing class into the ground. People suggest this all the time. The irony is halarious.

>>46235439
keep reading. there is a "you make three attacks at your full base attack bonus WITH additional damage dice. At level 8"

>> No.46235511

>>46235408
>It's possible to be overpowered without having narrative control you know.
No, because at most you'd just be a low Tier 3, and anyone with half a brain could take advantage of your crippling overspecialization and fuck you up the ass. Seriously, try having someone drop this Initiator down a pic, surrounding him with a dozen archers, or get some Wizards to Grease or Liquify his shit. Or maybe even have an encounter or problem that can't be won via combat.

Seriously, you must be the same type of faggot who gets upset when someone play a good Barbarian and one shots most anything

>> No.46235512

>>46235389
Generally you also want a modifier to mental stats and miscellaneous abilities. About the AoO thing, multiple Large races already exist and elves/half-elves are still the best AoO builds because of elven branched spear. If it's that big a worry, go for -2Str/Dex +2 Con, +2 to two mentals, I guess.

>>46235439
Mechanically, yes, thanks for asking.

>>46235440
kek ok let me know how PoW changes your narrative power, I'm sure it'll put all those wizards binding outsiders and teleporting between planets out of business.

>> No.46235520

>>46235406
>full hp
When an initiator deals twice that with an attack, not a whole lot of help

>better tactics
That requires the monster having an action with which to perform said tactics. If you give them an automatic surprise round, then you start going into "this is harder bcuz I said so, nyeh". You can't always have a convenient pit of lava blocking the way between the initiators and the enemies, and that stops being a problem when they can fly through environmental blocks.

>more mooks
You mean more free XP.

>> No.46235540

>>46235485
>find it funny that a common "fix" is just giving everything +30% hp as if it doesn't nerf every other damage-dealing class into the ground.
Along with the Path of War character, I don't really see your point. Path of War characters are objectively superior to every other martial class in the game, that's part of the fucking point.
>. While theoretically incredibly powerful, Schrodinger's wizard is still one mistake away from dead in most fights.
So is an Initiator, because Pathfinder is fucking rocket tag.

>> No.46235546

>>46235511
Yeah, it's possible to be tier 3 and still overpowered. Tiers are not a measure of power. Tiers are not relevant. If you kill everything by looking at it, you might be tier 3, but you're still fucking broken.

>> No.46235552

>>46235223
>Path of War is known as overPoWered here,
Yes, and its because of the spread of that fucking meme that we ended up getting Tempest Gale and Piercing Thunder.
Thanks a bunch assgoblin.

>> No.46235563

>>46235520
>free xp

Protip: Ad-hoc XP system.

PCs level when you tell them to level. Keeps everyone equal, and keeps you sane.

>> No.46235578

>>46235511
Your post is dumb.

"i can kill things so well its a problem" is a narrative power. Things being dead changes the narrative.

>>46235546
exactly. I would rather run encounters for a conjuration wizard than a bow fighter. One is at least fun to play with/against.

>>46235563
This is used in 100% of the games I have ever played. Not joking. I can't believe this isn't the standard rule by now.

>> No.46235585

>>46235552

Spears and ranged were already powerful pre-PoW.

Stop acting like you're entitled to things.

>> No.46235588

>>46235520
>That requires the monster having an action with which to perform said tactics. If you give them an automatic surprise round, then you start going into "this is harder bcuz I said so, nyeh". You can't always have a convenient pit of lava blocking the way between the initiators and the enemies, and that stops being a problem when they can fly through environmental blocks.
They can't fucking kill everything in the room at once, have more than one enemy that can actually fucking do something.
>You mean more free XP.
>giving XP per kill
This makes you a SHIT fucking DM right hear.
But no, mooks aren't free XP when used intelligently, because time spent fucking up the mooks buys the other fuckers time to do stuff. Single Monster encounters in pathfinder. Don't. Fucking. Work. They never worked. And they never will work unless you drastically change the rules.

>> No.46235591

>>46235511
>Seriously, try having someone drop this Initiator down a pit
Fly stances and counters to boost reflex saves

>surrounding him with a dozen archers
You mean targets

>or get some Wizards to Grease or Liquify his shit
See above for saves, and this assumes the Wizard gets to act first.

>Or maybe even have an encounter or problem that can't be won via combat
Such as...? If there's one thing that's true in PF, combat solves a lot of encounters including the ones that weren't supposed to be combat.

>> No.46235595

>>46235546
>"Tiers are not relevant"
>doesn't even understand how Tiers work.
Also, by your definition, a well built Barbarian is overpowered, which is just fucking retarded. Please stop taking about stiff yu don't understand you retarded gamist

>> No.46235610

>>46233023

>Besmara: You find yourself in the middle decks of a ship, swaying with the tides. One of the walls explodes, showering splinters and killing a nearby cannoneer outright. You can hear the captain's shouting over the racket - the order to fire. The cannon remains loaded and the torch is nearby, you can see the flag of the wealthy merchant vessel in the distance. Will you open fire?

>> No.46235620

>>46235591
>Schrodinger's initiator
ok

>>46235585
>melee was ever powerful
ok

put on a name or a trip so I can filter you

>> No.46235627

>>46235595
Actually...As a player and a DM: Yes. My "AM BARBARIAN" build is downright bullshit.

>> No.46235632

>>46235595
Tiers are not relevant to the discussion which was combat power you twit, not narrative power.

>> No.46235639

>>46235591
>this assumes the Wizard gets to act first.
Almost every Wizard gets improved Initiative, since they have the the free enough feats since they aren't sinkig everything into combat feat taxes

>> No.46235649

>>46235610

>Besmara
>Relevant

Pick one.

>> No.46235651

>>46235620
>schrodingers initiator is a bad argument for power levels
>schrodingers wizard is a good argument for power levels
ok

>> No.46235659

>>46235651
>tiers
>power levels
God dammit I understood this when I came here. Go read the tier list again.

>> No.46235661

>>46235552
What's wrong with those? I looked at them and they look actually balanced compared to all the other bullshit in that godawful subsystem.

>> No.46235663

>>46235610
Nice work.

Anyone got a Birgh?

>> No.46235670

>>46235591
Every initiator now flies and never fails a save. Gotcha.

>> No.46235677

>>46235659
Did you though?

>> No.46235684

>>46235651
>strawmen
Ok, cuck

>> No.46235693

>>46235639
And a familiar that boosts their initiative

Don't forget that

>> No.46235698

>>46235591
>Fly stances and counters to boost reflex saves
>because every fucking initator as a fly stance
>because every initator is in their fly stance 24/7
>because every initator has a reflex boosting stance that is prepared at that very moment
>because every initator hasn't already used their swift/AoO

>You mean targets
>WAAAAH my players kill things
Yes, enemies exist to be killed. Having more enemies means that they aren't laying waste to fucking everything and gives the others more time to do things

>> No.46235699

>>46235649
>Besmara will never get fleshed out
>There will never be a good pirate-themed AP
I just don't get it, how did they manage to make it so mind numbingly dull

>> No.46235705

>>46235512
>elves/half-elves are still the best AoO builds because of elven branched spear.
wait what? reach weapon with +2 to hit? I don't get it.

>> No.46235706

>>46235670
Yes.

>>46235684
You said it first senpai.

>> No.46235735

>>46235591
If every Initiator now flays and makes all their saves, then all Wizards have spells prepared to make combat a non-issue and dozens of spells of Dazing Fireball and always use either Save-or-suck or No-save spells

It goes both ways retard, in which case the Wizard is still more overpowered than Initiators could ever hope to be.

>> No.46235743

>>46235699

Isn't Besmara in Inner Sea Faiths?

>> No.46235751

>>46235735
Except that the wizard breaks the game at level 5, maybe 7, while the initiator breaks it at level 1.

>> No.46235753

>>46235591

>"Martials win because the wizard won't always go first or gets surprised!"
>Never being surprised and basically always going first is literally a wizard class feature

C'mon, man.

Also, you're making one hell of a Schrodinger's Initiator here. Like, two of them have fly stances, none of them have paladin-level saves, and generally speaking PoW maneuvers are just as single-target focused as anything else martials get so they're still not going to do shit against a massive number of enemies at once besides knock each one down quickly.

You're also making a lot of the same complaints GMs that haven't learned how to handle halfway-competent casters make.

>> No.46235760

This conversation is getting heated, just because we have disagreements doesn't mean we have to call each other names. Let's step back a bit and talk civilly!

>> No.46235762

>>46235699

Besmara will never get fleshed out because there's an *even better* freedom-girl on the celestial block!

AND HER NAME IS

MILANI
I
L
A
N
I

>> No.46235775

>>46235751
>he thinks combat is the entire game
ok whiteroom-kun

>> No.46235779

>>46235760
Second. Let's all remember to be excellent to one another.

>> No.46235780

Path of War seems very interesting. Might convince my GM and group to implement it. We use 1pp stuff in our game. Is PoW considered balanced? Do all classes have access to the Maneuvers or do they need proficiency in martial weapons? Or do other non martial classes need feats to gain access to the maneuvers? Do maneuvers basically act like "spells"?

>> No.46235795

>>46235751
In my experience Initiators broke the game until level 9.

>> No.46235801

>>46235760
Are you a moderator? No? Then suck my hot, throbbing dick, because I'll insult people when and how I see fit. If that bothers you, find a different hugbox.

>> No.46235823

>>46235775
well it is 95% of the god damn rules. Also: The non-combat rules are shit.

S H I T
H
I
T

>>46235780
Pow is kinda overPoWered, but it is really fun and has some cool ideas. Just make sure to build your initiator to be the second most powerful character and everyone will have fun.

>>46235801
When people get emotional they are harder to convince/teach.

>> No.46235827

>>46235780
> Is PoW considered balanced?
You know what? It depends on a lot of variables. Who is playing what and how? I love Path of War, but I wouldn't recommend who need to be convinced to use it in the first place.

>> No.46235833

>>46235780
No, it's not considered balanced at all compared to first party stuff. If you're interested in 3PP I can tell you some closer in power level to what you're used to.

>> No.46235851

Hey /pfg/. What are your favorite PrCs? I've never really bothered with them in PF before, but this one Anon was talking about a Battle Herald a while back, and it got me interested.

>> No.46235856

>>46235833
>No, it's not considered balanced at all compared to first party stuff.

But I mean, it's not like 1pp is balanced to 1pp either. It really does depend as >>46235827
said.

>> No.46235871

>>46235856
>But I mean, it's not like 1pp is balanced to 1pp either.
Exactly. I mean sacred geometry is a thing that exists.

>> No.46235873

>>46235851
Eldritch Knight, because I can have a mage-knight that still gets 9ths and the Sorc/Wizard list.

>> No.46235876

>>46235751
>Grease
>Color Spray
>Charm Person
>Deja Vu
>Glue Seal
>Hypnotism
>Ray of Enfeeblement
>Sleep
>Snapdragon Fireworks
The list goes on.

>> No.46235879

>>46235851
I'm still a sucker for abjurant champion!

>> No.46235881

>>46235780
I wouldn't take it to a table that wanted to play PFS-tier shit, no.

If you're party like skipping past rusty-dagger-shank-town then go for it. It gives martials sixth level casting, more or less.

>> No.46235895

>>46235833
It depends.

a Warder/Warlord mops the floor with a Fighter and Barbarian.

They're more in line with magi, melee alchemists, and Bloodragers.

>> No.46235897

>>46235823
Fair point.

>>46235827
Yeah, generally try to have your party all be on the same tier and level of combat ability.

>>46235881
Please tell me those tables don't actually exist.

>> No.46235903

>>46235851

I really love the flavor of Holy Vindicator.

>> No.46235909

>>46235851
Stalwart Defender

>> No.46235919

What is the best archetype in Pathfinder, from a fluff perspective? Which one, to you, offers the widest array of potential origin stories while remaining an effective alternative to other archetypes or the base class?

>> No.46235924

>>46235780
Short version; there's new classes that are built around using maneuvers, but with the newest book pretty much any martial character from Core and APG can pick up an archetype, and anyone can access maneuvers through feats.

Maneuvers function somewhat like spells, in the loosest sense of "special ability that you know and prepare ahead of time". You have a set of maneuvers known, and you can ready a number of them based on your level. They aren't quite as far reaching as spells, and focus largely on adding combat techniques like providing movement options, replacing niche feats like Cleave, and bolstering weaker weapon styles.

It is definitely stronger than 1PP martials, largely by design. The classes were based on a 3.5 1PP book that made classes specifically designed to revamp martial characters into something more interesting. They require a bit more thought for a GM planning encounters, but I've never really had too much of a problem myself.

>> No.46235936

>>46235919
Wildblooded.

>> No.46235945

>>46235743
Yes, and already in the first book of Skulls & Shackles. But that's not good enough for needy Anon!

>> No.46235947

>>46235876
>16 AC
>15 HP
>20% chance of a made save.

>> No.46235948

>>46235897
>Please tell me those tables don't actually exist.
They do. But don't worry, they're jumping ship to 5e.

>> No.46235953

>>46235919
Wildblooded or Crossblooded, if only because crossblooded actually lets you make non-spell choices as you level up instead of locking in all your class abilities at level 1.

>> No.46235963

>>46235851
Arcane Archer, because fuck I love magic archery.

>> No.46235977

>>46235193
Welp. Nice to meet you, new friend. Thanks for your interest in Path of War, and sorry that this had to be your first experience.

The short version is that when it comes to Broken Blade and Primal Fury, we kinda Done Fucked Up. There are some reasons that happened, but they all shake out to We Done Fucked Up, And We Are Sorry. There is, as has been mentioned, errata scheduled for that, but at the moment - as you've been observing - both are in a position where they're too strong for their role and cost(s). I might suggest you talk to your player about swapping out for another Discipline or set of Disciplines.

>>46235780
Please, please my new friend, see above w/r/t Broken Blade and Primal Fury. This is also fairly accurate >>46235924; notably, Path of War gives martials access to the entire action economy (swift/move/standard/immediate) and lets them move away from the full-attack paradigm.

Unfortunately full attacks are still more optimal but there's not much we can do about that.

>> No.46235979

>>46235936
>>46235953

I... I don't see how those are useful for fluff.

It doesn't seem like it alters the Sorcerer origin story at all!

>> No.46235981

>>46235762
>Atonement from a Cleric of Milani

I dunno I'm out of pottery. Somebody else do it.

>> No.46235990

>>46235919

Possessed Shaman sounds like fun, if only because the potential hilarity of someone trying to go about their day with a multitude of spirits tagging along.

>> No.46235994

>>46235897
>Please tell me those tables don't actually exist.
They're usually nice enough folks for what it's worth. They try to take a different approach then /pfg/ to balancing the game, to more or less the same effect.

>> No.46236005

>>46235979
You're not terribly imaginative, but alright... child of Acavna and Amazen or whatever it is. It lets your fighter get angry at two gods for giving him the spellcasting martials have wet dreams of and STILL screwing him over ceaselessly.

>> No.46236012

>>46235895

Every time I see someone say this I laugh.

So take a Magus/Alchemist/Bloodrager and strip it of all its utility out of skills, then pump it directly into pure stat numbers of saves, attack, damage, and AC.

That's what a Path of War Character is.

Hell a Warlord can even full attack better than a Ranger on their favored enemy! Use the 'not-victory gambit' every round so you don't get a reward or rake, but you get cha to atk rolls and be in a stance that gives you damage numbers (Primal Warrior, Battle Dragon, ect).

Pure numbers does not make a class balanced.

Killing a 40 HP enemy in one attack on slightly above average damage rolls at level 2 without a crit is not balanced.

Walking up to an annihilator Robot and dealing almost half its HP in one hit without a crit is not balanced.

>> No.46236018

>>46235979
>class that lets you literally be a fairy cat person with angel blood and demon blood doesn't have fluff potential

I mean shit man, you could be magical toxic avenger.

You can be Harry Fucking Potter.

You could LITERALLY be Jesus.

>> No.46236022

>>46235919
Honestly, I'm a real sucker for Archeologist Bard

>>46235981
It's essentially that one musical scene from the opening of Les Miserables

>> No.46236054

>>46235981

>Do you hear the people sing? Singing a song of angry men. It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again!

>> No.46236060

>>46236012
>Killing a 40 HP enemy in one attack on slightly above average damage rolls at level 2 without a crit is not balanced.
Post the build that can do this? Hard mode: No Borked Bladeor Primal Furries

>> No.46236066

>>46236012
>Magus/Bloodrager
>Utility
Aside from mobility, they also engage in magical "kill shit harder" shenangians.
>Killing a 40 HP enemy in one attack on slightly above average damage rolls
Explain to me how does one do this in ONE attack at level 2.

>> No.46236088

>>46235977
Get more images.

>> No.46236090

>>46236054

>Do you Hear the People Sing
>Not "Look Down"

Prologue for Les Miserables is the greatest fucking thing if you want a proper rebel story against Cheliax.

>> No.46236094

When you use scarlet riposte do you just block the first attack and the others from multiple attacks are blocked automatically or do you sense motive every single one and attack for every single attack?

>> No.46236108

>>46236060
Fighter 2, str 18
Lance
attack > +6 3d8+27
?

>> No.46236112

>>46236088

>> No.46236113

>>46236060
>Hard mode: No Borked Bladeor Primal Furries
Even those disciplines can't do that at level 1.

And I honestly never got the issue with those disciplines, I usually have trouble with Veiled Moon users and *teleports behind wizard* *unzips dick* *fucks his ass into a million pieces* stuff.

>> No.46236116

>>46236090
>>46236054

Why was Hell's Rebels in Cheliax, anyway? They could've done an *amazing* homage to Les Miserables by setting it in Galt.

>> No.46236129

>>46236090

Well, we're doing an Atonement spell, figured it might be a bit more uplifting. But given that I'm a soulless LG abomination, I defer to your expertise in these matters.

>> No.46236139

>>46236090
>>46236054
>not choosig the one actual atonement scene
Plebs

>> No.46236143

>>46236108
You know damn well that mounted lance bullshit doesn't count. Try again.

>> No.46236149

>>46236116
>Paizo
>culture
>>46236108
I would applaud you for that epic burn, but mounted builds are ridiculously situational.

>> No.46236157

>>46235977
Would you think ill of me if I wished that more DSP complaints were directed at DSP instead of fruitlessly at other anons.

>> No.46236170

>>46236143
Well sorry for doing what you asked and showcasing it can be done in just core

>> No.46236186

>>46236143
So how are those goalposts, are they getting too heavy for you to move?

>> No.46236187

>>46236090

I might be a pessimist, but I always tend to think of this song for rebelling against Cheliax.

https://youtu.be/CRQqz4-YfNo

>And we'll stand, proud and tall, 'til they come to kill us all
>Then we'll beg and plead and soil ourselves as one by one we fall!

>> No.46236200

>>46236108
>without a crit

>>46236143
>post an actual build that can do X!!!
>NO NOT A BUILD THAT CAN ACTUALLY DO X!!!!!!
ok faggot

>>46236060
I'll give it a shot. Orc barbarian 1/ragechemist1, mounted with a lance, 22 base Str, 30 with rage and mutagen. Enlarge person makes it 32.

2h mounted charge lance: 4d6+32
Average: 44 damage.

>> No.46236212

>>46236143
Did you miss the point of the reply

It was showing that you can accomplish that even without PoW

Anyone who thinks that the majority of PoW is OP has never played above the optimisation floor

>> No.46236217

>>46236139
>>46236116

Please stop, I can't take this.

Why is Paizo so dumb with their inspiration.

>> No.46236233

>>46236157
On the one hand, it's a reasonable request. On the other hand, this discussion's fascinating to watch.

So, y'know. You're fine, but I'm not sure I agree? I do like when folks bring us their feedback, though. 's often helpful.

>> No.46236236

>>46236200
Math: 32 Str is a +11 bonus to damage, 2h makes it +16, charge doubles that. A Large lance does 2d6 base damage, which gets doubled. Also I made a small error on the math, the base weapon dice average to 14 damage, making it 46 average damage on a hit, whoops.

>> No.46236237

>>46236200
>>without a crit
Spirited charge does 3x damage with a lance. A lance is 1d8, +6 damage from strength, +3 damage from power attack, that's 1d8+9 x3 from spirited charge for 3d8+27 which averages out to 40.5 damage without a crit.

>> No.46236239

>>46236170
>>46236186

I actually wanted him to post the PoW build that could do that. I mean it is op but its not THAT op.

>>46236200
Things that NEVER FUCKING COUNT in pathfinder build discussions:
Leadership
Sacred Geometry
Mounted Lance Bullshit

>> No.46236241

>>46236149

Well, can't the small folk on their medium mounts do OK with it?

Lord knows I was surprised at how fucking lethal a halfling on the back of a dire corgi could get.

>> No.46236254

>>46236217
Because the Northwest Liberal Ignorance Bubble makes them incapable of appreciating culture since its "outdated patriarch white man stuff"

>> No.46236255

>>46236241
make it a barbarian for even more insane damage.

>> No.46236270

>>46236239
>Things that NEVER FUCKING COUNT in pathfinder build discussions:
Well, BUILDPOSTER said they didn't count, so clearly it must be true because whatever BUILDPOST says totally sets the standard for PF discussion.

Therefore, as BUILDPOSTER, I use my divine mandate to declare that yes, mounted lance bullshit does fucking count, you worthless dickless faggot.

>> No.46236274

>>46236254
>shitposting
>baitposting
pls no

>> No.46236309

>>46236270
Literally every "uses a melee weapon" build ever is 100% more efective when "on a horse, with a lance, with one extra feat spent". That combined with "Basically no DM will let you have your horse" means that its kinda pointless to bring up.

Same reason why we don't talk about leadership when comparing builds. Do you remember when leadership was used as a reason that a CHA-using sorcerer was more versatile than a wizard?

>> No.46236313

>>46236274
>implying its not a time honored /pfg/ meme
>implying half the problems with Paizo don't stem from them being retardedly SJW

>> No.46236320

>>46236060
Power attack
Discipline Specialization
Maneuvers: boost: Strength of Hell,Strike: Ravaging Blow, Stance: Savage Stance
Race: Half Giant

5d6+1d8+11=17-49 damage depending on dice rolls. Average of 33 damage. As I said, he rolled a bit above average on damage and did the 40 HP.
>but now he's out of maneuvers!
No, he had 5 maneuvers readied. In total 2 strikes, 2 boosts, 1 counter. His strategy was kill a boss or lieutenant, then victory gambit to get his strongest maneuvers back as he killed a mook.

>> No.46236332

>>46236309
Yes, and now it's wrong because of Instructor Wizard. What's your point?

>> No.46236354

>>46236332

I still find it hilarious/sad that the Fighter keeps on getting talked up as a leader of men in the fluff but it's the fucking WIZARD who gets the strictly-better Leadership archetype.

Pathfinder's odd boner for taking away Charisma's nice things and giving them to Intelligence is one of the ongoing oddities of the game. I'm kind of surprised they didn't make an Intelligence-based Divine Protection only arcane casters can use by now.

>> No.46236379

>>46236354
I could see that happening in Armor Master's Handbook, as part of Arcane Armor Training or whatever that shit is.

>> No.46236415

>>46236379

Gods, I hope not. The Weapon Master's Handbook was nice in that it was actually a martial splatbook that didn't give in to Paizo's almost pathological need to cram more spells and caster-related goodies where they don't belong. If the Armor Master's Handbook can follow that example I'll be happy.

Also if Advanced Armor Training can somehow be as good as Advanced Weapon Training, there might finally be a good reason to specifically use a fighter for certain concepts.

>> No.46236425

>>46236320
I don't know who wanted this so I'm just gonna tag all of them.
>>46236332
>>46236239
>>46236233
>>46236212
>>46236200
>>46236143
>>46236113


Also to this guy
>>46236066
There is still some utility in both their class features and spells. You don't have to prepare the murder spells and you can make scrolls, use wands, ect for a lot of shit.

>> No.46236465

>>46236320
>But that's a Half Giant!
Ok, so a non-half Giant can still do 16-43 damage doing the same shit. At level 1 without a crit.

>> No.46236466

>>46236425
>You don't have to prepare the murder spells and you can make scrolls, use wands, ect for a lot of shit
Which has a lot more game breaking potential than "kill things gudder".

>> No.46236469

>>46235977
Basically, my problem with the player doing this is that he can do two attacks at Reach with the Grab ability where, if he doesn't kill it everyone else does. Tactics like this are what I really dislike since it's easy and it's all the player does. But one thing I like is one player in the party is using a Sleeping Goddess boost to put down a square he can teleport to, then use a Piercing Thunder maneuver to charge in and at the end of the charge he teleports back to his square. This was all fine and dandy until the wizard boss made a pit behind him and he fell in.

>> No.46236473

>>46236116
But Galt is Chaotic which means they are on the right path!

>> No.46236510

>>46236469
Aye, I feel you. As I said, we're working on errata for the first Path of War, and you've sadly stumbled into one of the problem areas. You have our apologies, for what those are worth, and our promise that we're working on it.

>> No.46236512

>>46236466
My original premise was
>So take a Magus/Alchemist/Bloodrager and strip it of all its utility out of skills, then pump it directly into pure stat numbers of saves, attack, damage, and AC. That's what a Path of War Character is.

So nothing I said is contradictory.

>> No.46236552

>>46236510
So when can we expect the errata to happen, or to at least see a preview of it?

>> No.46236564

>>46236512
>then pump it directly into pure stat numbers of saves, attack, damage, and AC
Damage yes, saves and defenses fuck no. They have a little bit more potential in the counter department, but that eats up a swift.

Path of War encourages martial to at least not dump mentals without engaging in the even more busted magic item crafting business.

>> No.46236579

>>46236552
When It's Done (tm).

In all seriousness though we're not at a point where we can look you in the eye and offer a timeframe without lying to you.

>> No.46236580

>>46236510
I don't even think the first Path of War errata is going to fix the fiendbounds bullshit.

>> No.46236594

>>46236580
...the ability to swing at reach with a one handed weapon that deals one handed damage?

>> No.46236600

>>46236579
Look at the ground, shuffle your feet, and lie through your teeth.

>> No.46236616

>>46236594
With grab, with high CMD bonuses.

>> No.46236625

>>46236415
>Armored Battlemage archetype

>> No.46236627

>>46236594

He's complaining about Grab. I'm not seeing it. Grapple is strong, yeah, but it's situational and he's eventually gonna run into things that just don't give a fuck. It's also a lot of investment to put into.

My recommendation to the DM is that he play at higher levels or start using tougher encounters. Less solo fights, especially.

>> No.46236633

>>46236594
Being able to swing twice at full BAB, Grab, bonuses to grappling, so that equals twice the chance to grapple.

>> No.46236647

>>46236012
If you attempt a gambit without declaring it, you still get the bonus? That seems.. poorly written. And potentially broken as shit.

>> No.46236679

>>46236627
>solo fights

Solo fights will literally never work right in D&D because of action economy.

>> No.46236684

>>46236564

The save Defenses aren't Paladin tier, but are you telling me the Warlord doesn't have Unbreakable Gambit? It's not like he's gonna get hit by 2 top tier fort saves in one round anyway. Or that the Warder has any weak save? Reflex gets Int and even a feat to add shield bonus to the save.

The Warder in my Party could only be hit by Natural 20s if it were anything but a mook. Bosses could generally only hit him on a 15+. None of his saves were week, so even opening a pit under him failed more often than not. He also did stupid amounts of damage since, why the fuck not?

Stalker is the only one with defense deficiencies, but at least they can spend a ki to give all enemies a 50% miss chance when attacking him.

>> No.46236687

New Bread

>>46236637
>>46236637
>>46236637

>> No.46236694

>>46236633
Freedom of movement is a thing, anon.

>> No.46236717

>>46236684
And the other classes have fucking spells, so that evens the playing field quite nicely.

>> No.46236747

>>46236647
>A warlord may attempt the actions
of a gambit, but without declaring the attempt a
gambit attempt by spending a swift action to do so,
the character does not regain any maneuvers nor
does he suffer a rake for failure.

Copy Pasted from my PDF.

Yeah, a Warlord running a damage stance and using this every round he full attacks automatically does about even with most Paizo Martial full attacks.

Grab full attack strikes for extra fun. Also the second level Primal Fury Strike that lets you pounce.

>> No.46236761

>>46236647
>The warlord begins a gambit as a swift action, effectively diving recklessly into the act he is attempting.
I assume this means you have to engage in a gambit to get the benefits.

>> No.46236805

>>46236761
check out >>46236747

>>46236717
>So take a Magus/Alchemist/Bloodrager and strip it of all its utility out of skills, then pump it directly into pure stat numbers of saves, attack, damage, and AC. That's what a Path of War Character is.

I hear Death is a really strong CC

>> No.46236841

>>46236805
So they're about on par with each other
>>46236805
>A warlord may attempt the actions
of a gambit
I think that is to clarify that they can do something described in a gambit, but not suddenly recover maneuvers for free.

>> No.46236945

>>46236841
It means they can spend a Swift action, gain their cha bonus on attack rolls for the round, if they don't kill the enemy they don't suffer -2 to d20 rolls next round. If they kill the enemy they don't get the maneuvers back.

I wouldn't say that it's on par.

Offense: 4/5
Defense: 3/5
Utiltiy: 3/5

into

Offense: 6/5
Defense: 4/5
Utility: 0/5

May bbe an equal number trade, but it still puts a value over what the game can handle.

>> No.46237530

>>46236945
> but it still puts a value over what the game can handle.
I disagree on this point, because damage only does so much. Most people don't item craft, and while spell casting affords some utility most of it isn't very meaningful. Certain disciplines provides damn good mobility, and if you actually talk to your players about picking interesting abilities like the Broken Blade throwing and spin kick attacks instead of "Boost and Full attack bait" plenty of in combat utility as well.

Fuck the mere fact that the player is doing more than just, "I roll attack 4 times" is a victory in my book but ymmv.

And in PF, it eventually evens out to "This guy has 100 hit points, does it REALLY matter if one guy does 101 and the other guy does 110".

>> No.46237556

>>46235924
Thanks for the insight. This might be fun to have more options.

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