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[ERROR] No.44208529 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Pathfinder General /pfg/

"Ancient Arodens" Edition

If you are asking for build advice, please mention which third-party books are allowed. If you do not say anything, we will ask (probably about DSP).

Unified /pfg/ link repository: http://pastebin.com/N12s5sEi
Proposed revision and reorganization of tier list: http://pastebin.com/t4BXvY3Q (what does everyone think of this?)

Previous thread: >>44200128

>> No.44208566

>>44208529
First for Aroden got deleted when he tried to use the Dimension of Time to go back to the past and stop Earthfall.

>> No.44208573

Before we switch to a (semi-anonymously maintainted and potentially shared-account) Google document, I would like to post the following semi-updated link repository:
http://pastebin.com/sj0CVhYc

As well as this slightly updated version of the preposed revision and reorganization of the tier list:
http://pastebin.com/Q0E8C8wJ

Dreamscarred Press has probably received enough feedback for Psion Focused Disciplines, but the Destruction sphere handbook for Spheres of Power could still use comments. To that end, allow me to repost this miniature spiel:

Help make the Destruction sphere from Spheres of Power good! The author of the Destruction sphere handbook is trying to let blasters annihilate enemies as well as martials, without obsoleting martials. Read through the Google document below and leave comments on the new options there.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c3LPA0j7qKpLFP2lOr3I9X9VUpH8vOvs17pKmTCj36M/edit

>> No.44208590

Suggested changes to Zen Archer Monk to make it Unchained compatible and just as powerful?

>> No.44208591

So, is that new Cheliax the Hedgehog adventure path any good?

>> No.44208605

Reminder that Carligni exists

>> No.44208611

>>44208573

Anon, I removed all that from the OP because half of it is worthless schlock and the other half is stuff you shouldn't be hounding people about with the OP.

>> No.44208618

What races need more attention?

>> No.44208621

I'm learning myself up on Path of War stuff. It says that you never expend a stance and that your current stance remains active until you use a swift action to change it. Does that mean you're constantly in a stance between fights, and that you also start fights already in a stance?

>> No.44208622

>>44208618
All elf races.

If by attention you mean removal.

>> No.44208626

>>44208618

Hobgoblins, Kitsune, Tengu are the big three.

>>44208591

Hell's Rebels? It's kind of bad, but not mechanically.

Hell's Vengeance is shaping up to be nice, though.

>> No.44208641

>>44208626
I was asking about the evil one specifically. Can players rape women and kill children?

>> No.44208653

>>44208621
That is exactly what it means. You can choose to end a stance as a swift action if you want, but since some stances have effects that are useful outside of combat like scent, flight, teleportation, or extra movement speed, they're useable outside of combat.

>> No.44208655

>>44208618
Trox
Wyrwood
the B5 races, but they haven't had time to be expanded upon
Teiflings
Wayangs

>> No.44208665

>>44208653
Ah, okay, thanks. That also explains why you would want to keep a stance going. I'm literally reading through the book right now, so I probably would have realized that when I got down to the list of stances, but I still appreciate the response.

>> No.44208675

>>44208641
>Can players rape women and kill children?

You probably *could*, but it's not supported in the AP.

Probably for the same reason most DMs don't let their players run around raping women and killing children. You're evil and working against Good, but you're still operating within the boundaries of Cheliax, which I imagine does not like the heroes violating their population.

That said, I guess you could always grab a member of the Glorious Reclamation and do it that way, but I have a feeling there's going to be a character from the Glorious Reclamation you can grab and convert anyway, since corruption fetishes are patrician-tier.

>> No.44208685

>>44208626
Less foxgirl please, s2g theyre the most played race in my group already. Dickery has generally ruined my sessions. At least its girls playing them

>> No.44208691

>>44208611

Weeks ago, people were complaining that ongoing third-party playtests were *NOT* in the OP. Those people had suggested that summaries and links to those playtests should be placed in the OP (rather than simply being buried in a pastebin), such that they would be immediately obvious to everyone.

/pfg/ is difficult to please at times.

>> No.44208700

>>44208621
By RAW, yes. A lot of DMs will rule that you'll need to reassure the stance at the start of an encounter, or that you lose it if you go to sleep or something similar.

>> No.44208701

>>44208675
Welp, you got me sold on that, pal.

I liked Way of the Wicked (except the ending), so I hope it lives up to my expectations.

>> No.44208717

>>44208665
Thank you for actually taking the time to read the book. A lot of questions are already answered in there or in Path of War: Expanded, but if you still have questions, there's PoW authors like me around on occasion to answer them.

You other PoW fans could stand to step up to the plate too though /s

>> No.44208723

>>44208685

This is why I want Kitsune to be fleshed out more, because as it stands they're just [Fluffy Tail] foxgirls.

Tengu would be good as well, always a fan of vaguely neurotic isolationist bird-people.

>> No.44208749

Can fiendish vessels worship evils other then the ones listed, and gain the appropriate familiar?

>> No.44208811

>>44208641
I think Paizo-people specifically mentioned that there won't be any sexual violence in the evil AP, but that just means there's none built in. You could still include it yourself, if you're so inclined (although how your group feels about that is up in the air).

>>44208700
I think it's reasonable to assume you lose it when you sleep ("How does he sleep like that, standing up on one leg the whole night with his arms spread?" said the bard to the wizard as they observed Warder while taking their turn at night-watch.) but I don't see why they should need to reactivate a stance when an encounter begins. Fluff-wise, their training should enable them to maintain their stance even when surprised by an ambush, and mechanically if you want to use PoW but think it needs to be nerfed in some places, is forcing initiators to burn a swift action at the start of a fight really the fix you think it needs?

A lot of DMs are silly.

>>44208717
To be fair, you answered that one pretty quickly, before other people had much of a chance to.

>>44208655
Teiflings have had enough attention, I think. Not to say they shouldn't ever get any more attention, but I think that there are races more deserving of attention than them and they should get some attention first. By the way, funky name you have there, Anon.

>> No.44208822

What are the downsides of summoning a succuboobs and having sex with her then binding them?

>> No.44208835

>>44208822

She might suck out your soul before that.

>> No.44208840

>>44208811
I have a bit of a know-it-all streak. I just hopped on it because it was an answer I didn't have to look up to make sure I was right.

>> No.44208861

>>44208835
You can prevent that can't you?

>> No.44208871

>>44208811
>>44208641
>>44208675

I really hope we get a nice range of husbandos for this AP, as I heard the "friendly" NPCs run the gamut of LE to CE.

It's all but guaranteed that we'll get the chance to grab a member of the Glorious Reclamation and corrupt them into our side, it's just such an obvious thing that should happen.

Unless Paizo goes full retard and tries to punish the party for being evil in their evil campaign.

>> No.44208884

>>44208529
That new tier list is awful looking, what kind of super autist made it? Keep the old one.

>> No.44208896

>>44208884
2hufag made it, explains everything huh?

>> No.44208903

Agents of Evil pdf when?

I need those glorious industry traits and items.

>> No.44208909

>>44208884
>>44208896
I'm sort of inclined to keep this one if it means touhouanon will shut the fuck up about tiers.

>> No.44208914

>>44208903
Knowing VH in a few weeks unless we throw money at him.

>> No.44208916

>>44208884

I am taking suggestions on how to improve it.

What sparked the reorganization of the tier list is a series of arguments from previous threads regarding whether or not certain archetypes, class options, and so on were enough to push certain classes up a whole tier.

I decided to solve that by instituting a tier list with "major options" rather than directly placing those options in higher tiers.

Also, please refer to the slightly updated version here:
http://pastebin.com/Q0E8C8wJ

>> No.44209013

Reminder that cybernetic gargoyles make the best waifus.

Especially if you're an artificial intelligence with literal god powers

>> No.44209038

>>44208916
Looks fine to me.

Don't worry too much about the autists who fear any and all change.

>> No.44209053

>>44209038
Talking to an autist there, bro.

>> No.44209078

>>44209053
We're all autists here, anon.

>> No.44209092

>>44208916
>What sparked the reorganization of the tier list is a series of arguments from previous threads regarding whether or not certain archetypes, class options, and so on were enough to push certain classes up a whole tier.

What arguments? Are we talking about the arguments where you nagged for a dozen generals about "why the tier list was wrong" and took the rebuttals that came out of it as an "argument?"

That's troll logic, anon.

>> No.44209144

Morning there, /pfg/!

Quick little question, can anything else be jammed onto this 3.P rogue?

DSP, Paizo and WoTC stuff up for usage.

At the moment, I've got:

Archetypes: Hidden Blade, Scout, and Knife Master. Tacked onto the Unchained Rogue.

ACF (optional, at DM's okay): Penetrating Strike.

>> No.44209205

>>44209092
This.

There us literally no reason to care about tiers.

>> No.44209207

>>44209092

I have not actually changed any of the base class entries for Paizo and Dreamscarred Press classes in the tier list. The sorcerer is still tier 2, the investigator is still tier 3, the slayer is still tier 4, and so on.

What I did change was the presentation of each class's "major upgrades," such as various class options and many fighter archetypes. Rather than hard-coding them into the tier list as new entries, I presented them alongside each class as "major upgrades," allowing people to decide for themselves whether or not, say, the hexcrafter archetype truly pushes the magus up to tier 2, or whether or not an urban bloodrager gains enough to enter tier 3.

I had written the Spheres of Power tiers from scratch after using my understanding of the Spheres of Power system to assess the various classes according to the tier definitions.

I had also written the miscellaneous third-party tier list after hours of comparing various third-party classes to Paizo classes under a context of "all books allowed." It turns out that the vast majority of third-party classes on d20pfsrd.com are in tier 5 due to being overly conservative with their power and flexibility (perhaps having used the original fighter, monk, and rogue as benchmarks). There were a few close calls though, such as the corsair being just barely tier 4, but arguably a high tier 5 as well, especially when compared to the bounty hunter that is a solid tier 4.

I am hearing out suggestions for improvement.

>>44209144

You should ask if Drop Dead Studios' Rogue Glory is allowed. If it is, you can improve a rogue considerably using any of the archetypes here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/drop-dead-studios---rogue-archetypes

The Weapon Expert, in particular, is noteworthy due to how it interacts with Advanced Weapon Training from the Weapon Master's Handbook:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/drop-dead-studios---rogue-archetypes/weapon-expert

>> No.44209222

>>44209207
why are your posts always so big

>> No.44209237

>>44209222
autism.

>> No.44209251

>>44209222
He is an attention whore

>> No.44209254

>>44208529
So what are the theories about Aroden's disappearance?

>> No.44209255

>>44209207
>I have not actually changed any of the base class entries for Paizo and Dreamscarred Press classes in the tier list. The sorcerer is still tier 2, the investigator is still tier 3, the slayer is still tier 4, and so on.

Oh my god that's not what I'm arguing about, anon.

I'm saying you conjured a problem out of thin-air and smashed our faces in it until we told you to shut up and keep the tiers as they were, which you took as an argument rather than a dismissal.

That's what's happening here, nobody gives a fuck about fine-tuning the tiers because the tiers are nothing more than play-time suggestion bullshit only used to pepper an argument. They don't hold power, they've never held power, and yet you're trying to make them a big deal.

>> No.44209274

>>44208723
Kitsune as a fully fledged PC race always felt weird to me, but I'm also someone who was interested in the mythology of youkai, so maybe I'm just a huge faggot.

Going full fluffy tail is kind of fun if you have a GM willing to put up with it, though. Especially if you both decide to make a sidequest be "monstergirl quest lite".

>> No.44209279

>>44209254
1. Aroden is an Anunnaki
2. Aroden tried time travel and paradoxed himself
3. Aroden is currently trying to turn his rapebeast body into that of a most enlighted female.

>> No.44209287

>>44209144

Also, if your GM allows Spheres of Power material, you could have a look at the new rogue options in the Divination sphere handbook. I have just received permission to share those specific rogue options:

New Rogue Talents:

Attention to Detail (Su): (Requires the Divination Sphere) A rogue when using a divination sphere talent or ability, may choose to spend 2 additional spell points as a free action to count her class level as her caster level to determine the effects of any divine or sense ability she uses. This stacks normally with caster levels gained from other sources.

Expanded Sphere-casting: (Requires the ability to use sphere talents and abilities). Gain the Extra Magical Talent feat as a bonus feat. You may take this talent multiple times each time acquiring a new talent or sphere.

Hedgewitch Secret: A rogue with this talent may gain a hedgewitch secret, having an effective hedgewitch level equal to its rogue level. The rogue must have sphere casting capability in order to select this talent. You may select this rogue talent multiple times, each time selecting a different hedgewitch secret.

Prescient Dodger (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the rogue adds her highest mental ability score (Int, Wis, or Cha) modifier to her AC and CMD. These bonuses apply even against touch attacks or when the rogue is flat-footed. She lose these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. This does not stack with the monk's AC bonus and similar class features.

Roguish Know-How (Ex): A rogue with this talent has honed her memory. When making a Knowledge check, she may add her Intelligence bonus a second time. Thus, a rogue with 5 ranks in Knowledge (local) and a +2 Intelligence bonus has a total skill bonus of +9 (+5 + 2 + 2) when using this ability. The rogue can also use this ability when making an Intelligence check to remember something.

>> No.44209297

Can demon lords be summoned and bound like regular demons?

>> No.44209298

>>44209254
If you mean the stuff from AP #100, literally fucking nothing.

>> No.44209309

>>44209297
Technically yes, but you would have to be mythic and fully optimized for binding to actually succeed.

>> No.44209314

>>44209298
Can anyone (re)post that actual article? I never read it so all I know about it is second hand. And that Aroden made a sword once.

>> No.44209319

Currently building a White Mage Arcanist for a group I'm running with, I'm looking at White Mage because the group is full of idiots who keep getting their shit wrecked in combat.

I'm focusing on using Sacred Geometry as much as possible.

Any advice on how to build this, feats, traits, etc?

Currently level 7

>> No.44209325

>>44209287

Treasure Seeker (Unchained Rogue Archetype)
Casting: A treasure seeker may combine spheres and talents to create magical effects. A treasure seeker is considered a Low-Caster, and uses Intelligence as his casting ability modifier. (Note: all casters gain 2 bonus talents and may select a casting tradition the first time they gain the casting class feature.) This replaces the Danger Sense class feature.

Spell Pool: A treasure seeker gains a small reservoir of energy he can call on to create truly wondrous effects, called a spell pool. This pool contains a number of spell points equal to his level + his Intelligence modifier (minimum: 1). This pool replenishes once per day after roughly 8 hours of rest.

Magic Talents: A treasure seeker gains a magic talent at fifth level and every five levels thereafter. This replaces the Rogue’s Edge class feature.

Perceptive: A treasure seeker gains the Divination sphere as a bonus sphere at 1st level. This replaces the trapfinding class feature.

>>44209255

I was not arguing against any of the tier placements for the base classes being incorrect. I was arguing against *automatic tier upgrades* being dubious, which is what I address in the revision and reorganization here:
http://pastebin.com/N12s5sEi

The tier list is a fairly important part of /pfg/'s culture and is referenced on a regular basis in these threads, so it stands to reason that a more intuitive reorganization of the tier list would be helpful.

>>44209222

Comprehensiveness and replying to multiple posters.

>> No.44209334

>>44209274
>Kitsune as a fully fledged PC race always felt weird to me

For what it's worth, I agree with you. Keeping the Kitsune as a side-race you can work with and occasionally take as a wife, like the Huldra, always struck me as the better option. Hell, then you could have the "either full woman or full fox" thing, and the tails as an indicator of power.

>> No.44209337

>>44209314
Aroden making a sword was literally the only new thing in there.

>> No.44209350

>>44209337

But don't worry the truth is out there! You just have to wait for JJ to write about it when you're toppling the Linnorm King system in favor of a unified Ulfen republic.

>> No.44209379

>>44209319

If you insist on trying to heal your allies as an arcane spellcaster while using the Sacred Geometry feat, I would strongly recommend being a wizard 5/Collegiate Arcanist (also known as Magaambyan Arcanist) 2 and using your free druid spells to acquire whatever restorative spells suit your fancy.

A prepared caster makes much better use of Sacred Geometry than a spontaneous caster, and for the purposes of metamagic feats and Sacred Geometry, an arcanist is considered a spontaneous spellcaster.

Really though, prevention is better than curing; if you are truly concerned for your allies' well-being in combat, you should be dedicated to providing battlefield control upon the enemies and buffs for your allies, using spells like Create Pit, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, and Stinking Cloud.

>> No.44209380

>>44209350
>You just have to wait for JJ to write about it when you're toppling the Linnorm King system in favor of a unified Ulfen republic.

>JJ wipes out the Linnorm King system

Don't you fucking joke about that.

>> No.44209387

>>44209325
You are literally the only person who cares, and you've spent about twenty threads talking to yourself about it. Please leave.

>> No.44209392

>>44209298
I meant more in general, but did AP #100 add anything of any interest at all?

>> No.44209395

>>44208871
It's not like Way of the Wicked doesn't so the same. Are there any other evil adventure paths out there, either for Pathfinder or various versions of D&D?

>> No.44209408

>>44209380
>Revolution of Winter!
>Join a group of plucky CG rebels to topple the facistoid Linnorm King system.

>> No.44209417

>>44209325
>The tier list is a fairly important part of /pfg/'s culture and is referenced on a regular basis in these threads, so it stands to reason that a more intuitive reorganization of the tier list would be helpful.

The tier list is not an important part of /pfg/ culture, it's a thing we like to throw up every now and then to add bulk to our arguments.

Literally the only useful thing about the tier list is broad-stroke indicators of what class is where and why. There is no need to fine-tune it because that goes against the purpose of the tier list.

>> No.44209431

>>44209387
Pretty sure I started frequenting /pfg/ during touhou fags ban and I must say that he really does shit up almost every thread he has posted in so far. It was nice coming in to see pathfinder discussion and not some shit head trying to force his shit on everyone else.

>> No.44209450

>>44209408

You're forgetting the part where they team up with the progressive White Estrid to make her High King of the Ulfen.

>> No.44209456

>>44209431
It's a pity that he's not going to leave until he gets banned again.

Even though he hates PF and is quite happy to tell everyone how much he hates PF, he won't fucking leave and let us do our thing in peace.

>> No.44209467

>>44209450
Of course! White Estrid become the first Holy Matriarch of the Ulfen Republic.
She then allies with Holomog.

>> No.44209490

>>44209387
>>44209417

If it is irrelevant to /pfg/'s culture, then does that mean the tier lists should be removed from the link repository?

If not, what makes the original tier list useful and my proposed reorganization inadequate?

>> No.44209497

>>44209450

Know what bugs me about White Estrid? She's legitimately a cool character, but Paizo always tries to put a progressive spin on all her habits.

It doesn't help that two of the three other Kings are lecherous, greedy cravens and the other one is years away from fucking off to Arcadia.

>> No.44209505

>>44209490

Who's the girl on the right? I imagine the one in the middle is a dog-girl, but is the third girl another wolf?

>> No.44209509

>>44209490
Your proposed change as derailed the past 5 fucking threads because you keep pushing it on people, that's how it is inadequate.

>> No.44209515

Why haven't we pointed out the CG rebels thing on the Piazo forums?
As long as it's done respectfully and we guise it in the face of a "what kind of APs would you want to see" thread nobody is going to block it because even the most unreasonable can see it wouldn't in any way be inflammatory.
>>44209490
Yes remove it, and stop talking about it.

>> No.44209518

>>44209505
Woof, doge, fawks

>> No.44209529

>>44209518
wolf tengu, yamabiko (echo yokai), werewolf.

>> No.44209534

>>44209497
>>44209450
>>44209467
>>44209380

>There will never
>EVER
>Be a campaign set in the Land of the Linnorm Kings
>Not even a sandbox where you're just fucking around to become the biggest, baddest Linnorm King

Just kill me now.

>> No.44209558

>>44209505

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Kagerou_Imaizumi

>>44209509
>>44209515

To be absolutely clear, then: the current /pfg/ consensus is to remove the tier lists from the link repository? Is that correct?

If that is the consensus, then so be it.

>> No.44209563

>>44209558
The consensus is for you to stop posting.

>> No.44209577

>>44209558
Just leave the goddamn original tier list and drop it, I mean holy shit can you not tell we don't want your new list already?

>> No.44209578

>>44209563
Seconding this.

Stop posting 2hufag.

>> No.44209584

>>44209558
>If that is the consensus, then so be it.

Anon, of all the things I don't like about your posting, the fact you act like you're the final arbiter on what does or does not happen in /pfg/ general threads is probably the most infuriating.

>> No.44209596

>>44209563
Thirding.

You see that link you posted about that 2hu character? That is the most constructive thing II've seen you post my entire time here, and by that I mean it didn't shit up the thread.

>> No.44209606

>>44209558
That's not the consensus. Leave the original tier list (not yours) and just stop bringing it up.

>> No.44209607

First time playing PF and my DM is allowing everything first and third party.

What do I do?

>> No.44209618

>>44209563
Fourthed.
I'm tempted to begin knee-jerk retaliation shit posting whenever I see you.

>> No.44209622

>>44209606
This.
Keep original tiers, they are useful as reference, stop shitting up threads with arguments about tiers.

>> No.44209629

>>44209607

How much time do you have before the game starts? You could read up on Path of War classes.

>> No.44209633

>>44209607
Trox brawler

>> No.44209636

>>44209392
Nope. Just the cool see-through sword.

>> No.44209644

>>44209607
Be a divination (Forsight) Wizard with Sacred Geometry and later go into Collegiate Arcanist aswell as Evangelist.
Make Collegiate Arcanist your aligned class.

>> No.44209646

>>44209607
I have just the book for you.

(warning: NSFW, a Chris Fields book)

>> No.44209650

>>44209607
Pick something simple and fun. I recommend Fighter of Barbarian to help get a grip on the combat rules, or Bard to learn RP, skill, and minor spell stuff

>> No.44209654

>>44209577
>>44209606

I am trying to find the logic behind this.

It seems that people find the tier list to be irrelevant, yet they have enough of an attachment to the tier list to request that the original tier list be preserved.

What is the logic behind this? It is either:
A. The tier list is irrelevant and thus the original tier list should be removed as well
B. The tier list *is* relevant and thus discussions on reorganizations of the tier list are relevant as well.

>>44209584

I am not trying to arbitrate what gets posted in these threads, but seeing how I am the one who has been maintaining the link repository all this time, it is very much relevant what goes into the repository and what remains outside of the repository.

>> No.44209660

>>44209654

see
>>44209618
>>44209596
>>44209584
>>44209578
>>44209563

Sure looks like a consensus here.

>> No.44209668

>>44209654
>I'm not an arbiter, I just try to filter what gets in regardless of others

>> No.44209679

>>44209654
The original tier list is relevant because it's what everyone has and will use. It's worked so far and changing or complicating it is unnecessary.

>> No.44209685

>>44209654
>I am trying to find the logic behind this.

Anon, the logic behind their arguments is we don't CARE about Tiers, their only function is to fluff up arguments about class competency.

You don't need logic for raw apathy and disinterest.

>> No.44209693

So I'm getting the impression that /tg/ likes the Lands of the Linnorm Kings?

>> No.44209697

>>44209607
Pick a character concept you want to play, keep it simple like: Studious wizard grad student, clever thief, or grizzle war veteran. Then ask/look around for classes that seem like they'd fit what you want. Use the class's fluff to refine your character concept, read guides on the classes then ask for advice on building the character to better fit your refined concept.

Make sure your character is a person with wants, needs and goals. Once you know who your character is, you can know which mechanics will help define WHAT your character is.

>> No.44209702

>>44209650
>>44209607

Expanding on this, I'd suggest trying out the Slayer as your first class.

It has a wide range of skills, can be built to "be" multiple things due to the Talents, it's a solid melee or ranged class, and has class abilities that aren't difficult to use, but rewarding to those who pay attention to them (Studied Target and Sneak Attack.)

>> No.44209738

>>44209654
C. The tier list is a useful guideline for players and DMs, but further refinement only leads to more confusion and baseless arguments. So refining the tier list doesn't actually improve its usefulness.

>> No.44209756

>>44209668

You might notice that the slightly updated repository in >>44208573 contains many new homebrew links that I had retrieved from previous threads.

If anything, that is a sign of being less strict with regards to inputting links into the repository.

Someone has to maintain the repository of links.

By the logic of "there should be no arbitration on what goes into the repository," then all links should go into it, up to and including both sets of tier lists.

>>44209679

The original tier list is muddled with dubious calls on "tier upgrades," it is incomplete with respect to the Dreamscarred Press classes, and it is quite inaccurate with regards to the Spheres of Power classes.

That, to me, says that the original tier list could use:
1. A different way of presenting "major upgrades," while still preserving the original placement of base classes.
2. Completing the Dreamscarred Press tier list.
3. Rearranging the Spheres of Power tier list based on actual assessment of the various classes and archetypes in Spheres of Power.

>>44209738

Then by this logic, the current tier list should have all of the "major upgrades" removed from it, which are currently cluttering up the tier list, somewhat questionable (e.g. magus [hexcrafter] being presented in tier 2), and not even particularly complete, correct?

>> No.44209768

>>44209756
Touhoufag, why are you ignoring the consensus saying you should stop posting if you care so much about consensuses?

Could it be that you're a hypocrite in addition to being an obnoxious piece of shit?

>> No.44209799

>>44209756
The concensus has decided you should go and stay go you fucking piece of shit.

Sheesh even Buildposter is easier to deal with. At least I can filter him.

>> No.44209854

Latest strawpoll in regard to touhou fags tier debacle. This will help draw a consensus on whether he should keep posting or fuck off.

http://strawpoll.me/6284192

>> No.44209890

>>44209756
>Then by this logic, the current tier list should have all of the "major upgrades" removed from it, which are currently cluttering up the tier list, somewhat questionable (e.g. magus [hexcrafter] being presented in tier 2), and not even particularly complete, correct?

I should have led with this: Your original post was a false dichotomy fallacy. There are other reasons why people might not want an updated tier list other than the two you posted or even the response I posted. I'm not sure what those reasons are, but I guarantee you they exist.

To answer your actual question, allow me to respond with an adage:

>If it ain't broke, don't fix it

The current tier list works for the majority of posters in this thread. So further changes only sparks debate and resolves nothing, as you've managed to demonstrate here.

>> No.44209933

I'm building a huge ancient, forgotten, magical library dungeon with an APL of 5. What are some neat traps, puzzles, monsters, loot, ect that I can include?

>> No.44209937

>>44209890
>I'm not sure what those reasons are, but I guarantee you they exist.
Because the tier list is easy to read and gets its point across effectively. A tier list shouldn't be heavy on nuanc, and it doesn't help that 2huanon's is a clusterfuck to navigate. I vote for keeping our current list and/or 2huanon going and staying go.

>> No.44209950

ITT: 2hufag drowns out any potential interesting discussion and takes the tier list way too fucking seriously.

Tier list debates are shit that ends only in everyone being assmad as fuck, no matter where you are. I came here to talk about mechanics, DEEPEST LORE, and to shitpost/read shitposts about stuff that happened in games. When can we get back to that?

>> No.44209974

>>44209950
Let's talk about squires and cohorts, and why taking a magus squire as a fighter makes you less effective than your apprentice.

>> No.44209990

>>44209768
>>44209799
>>44209854

The issue with such a negatively-charged consensus is that it is the kind of poll that would only draw negative responses.

Those who have no stake in this, those who are ambivalent, and even those who are supportive have no reason to voice their opinion or vote on an online poll; it does not matter to them. The ones who *will* be voicing their opinions are the ones with negatively-charged opinions, because those are the ones who have enough of a stake in this to make their preferences known.

>>44209890

I suppose that makes sense, and that it is simply the usual resistance to change endemic to such threads.

That said, would this not mean that the current tier list, for all of its faults, vague definitions, incomplete entries, and outdatedness, will remain as it always is and will never be updated or reorganized? What would be a good reason to actually update or reorganize the tier list?

>>44209950

Posts in previous threads had expressed positive opinions towards my reorganization of the tier list, but >>44208884 had expressed a distaste for it, which is why I had to respond to it.

>> No.44210002

>>44209990
So you ignore consensus when it's convenient for you, even when you're clearly not wanted.

Disgusting.

>> No.44210013

>>44209379
You do know white mage arcanists exist right?

>> No.44210036

>>44210013
He was explaining how I could access those abilities without being a spontaneous caster.

Prepared casters are much more effective with Sacred Geometry than Spontaneous.

>> No.44210056

>>44209990
>
I suppose that makes sense, and that it is simply the usual resistance to change endemic to such threads.

>That said, would this not mean that the current tier list, for all of its faults, vague definitions, incomplete entries, and outdatedness, will remain as it always is and will never be updated or reorganized? What would be a good reason to actually update or reorganize the tier list?

Given the progress of our conversation so far I'm not sure I'm capable of having a productive discussion with you, so I think I'll just stop.

>> No.44210057

>>44209990
The poll is 50/50 right now so fuck off with your "The ones who *will* be voicing their opinions are the ones with negatively-charged opinions". If there are any non-touhou fag anons who think he should stay give us a reason as to why.

>> No.44210079

>>44209950
Well, apparently there are people actually trying to discuss dungeon builds:
>>44209933
Scrivenites from the Hell's Rebels AP. They're pretty neat.

>> No.44210093

>>44209974
>taking a magus squire as a fighter

Okay, now you're just intentionally being silly. I really hope you're at least a well archetyped fighter.

As far as cohorts, I haven't gotten to give it a shot yet, but my GM has said that he's totally down for letting me take leadership if I want. How do most people handle cohorts? Do you work with your GM to make them, or does your GM just hand you a list and say "here's potential cohorts, pick one and I'll roll them up".

Does the Promethean Alchemist's homunculus count for this conversation?

>> No.44210097

>>44210013

Yes, but white mage arcanists are *not* especially good at in-combat healing for the same reason that the majority of characters with access to Cure spells are *not* especially good at in-combat healing: it simply is not worthwhile short of major investments.

A wizard 5/Collegiate Arcanist (also known as Magaambyan Arcanist) would be able to add a smidgen of Cure spells to their spell list for the sake of character concept (although Infernal Healing is an option too).

The poster in question wishes to help preserve their party's well-being through indirect methods. Battlefield control and buffing are far more effective at such a thing than in-combat healing.

The poster also wants to emphasize the use of the Sacred Geometry feat, which wizards employ much more effectively than arcanists.

This is why the poster in question would be better served by a wizard 5/Collegiate Arcanist (or Magaambyan Arcanist) who uses battlefield control and buffing and the Sacred Geometry feat to assist their party in combat, and the occasional healing spell outside of combat.

This is assuming that the poster in question does not simply want to use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or a Wand of Infernal Vigor, of course.

>> No.44210100

>>44210079
I bought the book for Hell's Rebels.
>Scrivenite encounter
>Creature described on page 46
>Look down at corner
>page 46
>No fucking creature stats
>Go online
>Nowhere to be found
Can you please help me find this fucking thing's stats?

>> No.44210110

>>44209693
It's not!Scandinavia, complete with burly Vikings fighting mythological beasts and each other for personal glory and kinghood. How do you not like it?

>> No.44210156

What are you expecting to see from the refluffed statblocks coming in AP#100?
Some Kineticist BBEG? Maybe a Mesmerist Ileosa? or an investigator Ameiko?

>> No.44210176

>>44210156
Unarchetyped fighter 9 / bard 1

>> No.44210177

>>44210156
>Kineticist BBEG
Bitter impotency is the worst villainous motivation.

>> No.44210196

>>44210156
>What are you expecting to see from the refluffed statblocks coming in AP#100?
Garbage mechanics.

>> No.44210212

>>44209990
Your case might be helped by a few things.

>give it a fucking rest for a while, let the dust settle, let a few threads go by, maybe wait until the new year
>stop avatarfagging with 2hu. Full stop.
>if you have to have your own tier list RIGHT NOW, make it an alternate list and keep the current one the way it is, and keep yours tucked under the rest of the lists
>stop posting about tier lists for a few threads
>stop feeling the need to write formal business letter replies to everything
>yes I get the irony

>> No.44210304

>>44210110
Oh god no, I love it. I just didn't know it was so well received on /tg/

>> No.44210325

>>44209319
>>44209379
>>44210013
>>44210097

That said, if you absolutely *must* have Cure Light Wounds (as opposed to Infernal Healing) on your class spell list as a wizard, the most efficient thing for you to do would be to create a samsaran wizard.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-samsaran
>Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.

Use this to add Cure Light Wounds to your wizard spell list via the bard spell list, and use the other slots for discounted spells from the chained summoner spell list.

You should still be using battlefield control and buffing spells in battle, however. Create Pit, Glitterdust, Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud, and even Sheet Lightning are all good examples.

This circumvents the need to be a Magaambyan Arcanist/Collegiate Arcanist (and, truth be told, the Fast Study arcane discovery quite possibly trumps that prestige class's features anyway). You can then be a single-classed wizard, or even a wizard/Evangelist if you would prefer such a build.

>>44210212

>give it a fucking rest for a while, let the dust settle, let a few threads go by, maybe wait until the new year
Should I attempt to present a my proposed revision on January 1, then?

>> No.44210364

>>44210325
Wait 2d8 days after the January 1st, so that it will be a surprise rather than something people in the thread expect. Obviously, don't state what you've rolled in this or another thread.

>> No.44210388

>>44209933
>traps
Books that open and magic pops out. Murder magic.
>puzzles
Book codes. Books that spew out Rubik's Cubes.
>monsters
Books that flap around and look goofy that try to eat you, which is significantly less goofy. Also occasionally blast you in the face with magic.
>loot
BOOKS.
>etc
Don't make your players eat books.

>> No.44210413

What classes/other methods can get you prerequisite-free Style feats? Kirin Style and Kirin Strike in particular look perfect for a character I want to play who will probably never reach 9th level.

I know there's that Monk archetype that can't really do Knowledge-related stuff (as a Monk with unaltered skills) or really do anything else that benefits from high Int.

>> No.44210443

>>44210388
>Don't make your players eat books.

I thought most older books used an animal fat glue that was edible?

>> No.44210461

>>44210364
>2d8
Go with 4d12

>> No.44210501

>>44210443
It's not just animal fat, and even if you could eat it (which I doubt), it's going to be deep into "why would you eat this," next to chili with beans.

>> No.44210506

Why so much vitriol /pfg/?

>> No.44210509

>>44210304

Anon, it's literally everything we'd want in a campaign:

>Reputation system
>Rewards for taking thralls and prisoners
>Buxom blondes
>Buxom Asian girls
>Big burly Vikings
>Raiding
>Not!Scandinavia landscape
>System in place to become a king, all on your own

It makes me wonder why nobody's tried to make a campaign for it on Roll20 or here, I know one anon got into a campaign for all this but it died.

>> No.44210528

>>44210506
Because I'm tired of every other post in this thread being Touhoufag asking the same questions or complaining about the same things over and over again.

>> No.44210569

>>44209990
Man, the amount of butthurt you inflict.
Probably some pride to be had there at setting off so many assburgers

>> No.44210572

>>44210528
Then don't go ARGH I HATE THIS NEW TIER DOC IT SUCKS?

>> No.44210600

>>44210572
We're mostly going
>ARGH I HATE MR 2HU
the tiers are more of a footnote

>> No.44210604

>>44210572
But it does suck and nobody except 2hufag wants it.

>> No.44210608

>>44210509

Why didn't they make a Land of the Linnorm Kings AP to be released around the same time of Skyrim?

>> No.44210614

>>44210604
Hell there are people who don't want it simply BECAUSE 2hufag wants it.

>> No.44210616

>>44210604
Looks fine to me.

>> No.44210625

isn't 2hu breaking a rule by using an avatar

>> No.44210626

>>44210388
>Don't make your players eat books.
What if they are Tome Eaters?

>> No.44210628

Can someone explain to me "Improved Psicrystal Augment"?

>"Improved Psicrystal Augment: Magical or psionically enchanted weapons that possess special abilities that are not normally on the soulknife’s enhanced mind blade list (such as bane) are temporarily added to that list for use by the augmented blade when using his psicrystal augment class feature, and the enhancement bonus applied to the weapon by that class feature increases by +1. The augmented blade must be at least 4th level to select this blade skill."

Does this mean you add other effects to the list, but at a total equivalence of +1 eaten up?

Or does it let you augment weapons that already have these qualities on them, but at the cost of its total equivalent being +1 (even if it's got +4 of abilities you can't apply with augment, but that are on i) with the rest of its abilties overridden?

Or... what?

It reads like fucking spaghetti.

>> No.44210632

>>44210604
This. I'm am showing support for this sentiment. All in favor?

>> No.44210644

>>44210625
Yes. The problem is he's not as bad or annoying as buildposter, so the mods ignore him.

>> No.44210654

>>44210626
They're not allowed in the library, they have to wait outside.

>> No.44210677

>Temple Champion Paladin
Why? Who thought this was a good idea? It's just a shittier Sacred Servant! At least give him the Warpriest's Divine Weapons or other stuff to justify getting rid of most of the Paladin's class features!

>> No.44210703

>>44210677
Isn't sacred weapon fucking garbage though?

>> No.44210752

>>44210625
He's not avatarfagging.

>> No.44210753

>>44210703
pretty nice on a rapier by high levels tho

>> No.44210757

>>44210703
Well, it's better if your weapon's damage die is small.

>> No.44210855

Which disciplines are due for nerfing/buffing? Should I ask my players not to use those disciplines right now, or just warn them that the disciplines might suddenly change when/if the errata comes out (giving them the chance to respec if they choose to)?

>> No.44210861

>>44210632
Can anyone say what they hate about 2hu other than generic 'he asks stupid questions?' All I'm seeing is assburgers getting riled up.

>> No.44210872

>>44210703
At least it would be something and would have at least somewhat justified removing Divine Bond

>> No.44210877

>>44210703

Yes and no.

It's useful if you're using something like a dagger or gauntlet or whatever as your weapon of choice. It's OK if you're using a rapier or scimitar type weapon, bleh if you're using a longsword or longbow, and garbage if you're using a great weapon.

>> No.44210903

>>44210861
I don't like that he devotes most of his time to picking apart Spheres, something that no one else but him is anywhere near as invested in, I don't like that he ignores people who don't respond to him the way he likes, and I really don't like that he considers himself in charge of what gets discussed in /pfg/ and what goes in the topic.

>> No.44210914

>>44210861
They way he types and runs on forever in huge autisticly assembled rants and textblocks, regardless of of anyone is paying attention to him or not, and automatically assumes people will agree with him and that he's the most important and justified individual on /pfg/. Also he keeps assuming that he's /pfg/ universal spokesman and decision maker, even when no one asks him or wants him to do so.

>> No.44210922

>>44210861
He acts like the arbiter of /pfg/, cares way more about spheres than anyone has any right to, avatarfags all the time with 2hu pictures, and generally just litters the general with quantifiable levels of autism.

>> No.44210927

>>44210903
>2hu, why you gotta make such long posts
>2hu, but you also gotta reply to EVERYONE!

Make up your mind.

>> No.44210953

>>44210927
Are you stupid? Where did he mention long posts?

>> No.44210967

>>44210927
I don't give a shit about the length of his post; if you'd actually read my reply you'd have seen that that was, shockingly, not one of my complaints.

You dense motherfucker.

>> No.44210983

>>44210967
He probably assumes everyone who doesn't like 2hu is a samefag

>> No.44210985

For fuck's sake can we stop talking about the touhoufag. If he bothers you that much, ignore him.

>> No.44210990

>Upon command, a suit of glamered armor changes shape and appearance to assume the form of a normal set of clothing. The armor retains all its properties (including weight) when it is so disguised. Only a true seeing spell or similar magic reveals the true nature of the armor when it is disguised.

So, does this mean the texture of the suit stays metallic?

Like, say I glamer a suit of Full Plate, if someone touched my shirt would it feel like steel, or cotton? Would I be able to sit like I was wearing clothes, or armor? Does the clothes morph, stretch and bend like metal, or fabric?

>> No.44210997

Are there feats, races or traits for changing a class's casting stat? I want to play an Int-based Bard.

>> No.44211041

>>44210990
One would assume, yes, since it does not state any change in weight or texture.

>>44210997
The only 1pp things I've seen do that are archetypes.

>>44210985
I'd love to, but if people ignore him he'll just alter the OP of /pfg/ as he sees fit and generally make the general an even bigger clusterfuck. Since silence to him clearly means consent.

>> No.44211050

Alright. I am confuss.
I'm trying to figure out what's compatible, archetype-wise, with a Rubato.

It changes Spells, Cantrips, Versatile and Bardic Performance.

Now a quick look at the bard page will tell you not only that everything modifies bardic performanceS, but that "bardic performance" in and of itself is listed as an individual entry.

.... This individual entry is under a massive "bardic performance" category.

So. What bard archetypes can work with what? If you modify "bardic performance" can you still grab something that doesn't list it as modified but changes, say, Inspire Courage within it? Is the entire category locked out? Or, if anything in the category is locked out, is it impossible to mix and match archetypes that only modifiy, say,one song each?

What in the fuck is this giant fucking table so large for, and why are half the entries modifying or replacing things that they don't list as doing on the main bard page?

>> No.44211064

>>44211041
>One would assume, yes, since it does not state any change in weight or texture.

Well, shit.

How am I supposed to get the protection of Full Plate with the comfort and style of a spiffy outfit?

>> No.44211081

>>44211064
Enchant it with Comfort?

>> No.44211085

>>44210628
Ask again when the DSP guys show up. They'll know.

Or they'll have to figure it out.

>> No.44211095

>>44210953
>>44210967
I think he's referring to >>44210914, although whether he's assuming that post's poster is the same as >>44210903's poster or is just lumping them together to try to suggest that /pfg/ isn't cohesive enough for everyone to be happy, I don't know.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth of the subject at hand, I'm apathetic towards 2hufag. I don't care about the Touhou pictures and I don't care about whatever attitude he has (or that other people think he has, as I'm like 90% that's just his autism sounds like and not what his actual attitude is), whether it comes off as smug or not. Sometimes, sometimes, he makes useful posts and points but a lot of times he doesn't, which in my mind doesn't make him a much different than most other people in the thread. He's just more verbose about it all, and that doesn't really bother me either because if I don't feel like reading one of his posts, I don't. I take >>44210985's stance on this.

>> No.44211137

>>44211081

I did not know this enchantment exists, thank you!

>> No.44211165

>>44210903

>picking apart Spheres
Spheres of Power is perfectly valid discussion material in /pfg/, due to it being a Pathfinder product. Is there an issue with bringing it up?

>I don't like that he ignores people who don't respond to him the way he likes
I try to respond to whomever I can (and indeed, that is why my posts can be quite long-winded), but there is no way I could hope to address everyone. Have there been any especially egregious cases of me having ignored posters in the past?

>>44210903
>>44210914
>>44210922

I do not mean to attempt to arbitrate /pfg/. Such an attempt would be futile and impossible. What makes you say I come across as doing so?

I do keep the pastebin link repository up-to-date, and after someone in a previous thread had told me to include all homebrew regardless of quality (I was initially recalcitrant towards including two homebrew races of highly questionable balance), I had gone and done so for roughly a dozen homebrew links.

Someone had proposed earlier the removal of *both* sets of tier lists from the repository, which is why I assented to that initially. However, the consensus is now to remove my own revision of the tier list (which is, in a way, its own form of arbitration from others).

Is there anything in particular that comes across as particularly overbearing?

>automatically assumes people will agree with him and that he's the most important and justified individual on /pfg/

What makes you say this? I am curious to know. The most important people in /pfg/ would be anyone who actually writes Pathfinder supplements for it, be it the Dreamscarred Press team, Adam Meyers finally learning how to post here on his own, or any other writer who drops by here to entertain questions.

I am not a writer, so I am unimportant in that regard. I try to ensure that the pastebin repository and its sub-pastebins are up-to-date, and I also keep /pfg/ abreast of developments with Dreamscarred and Spheres playtests, but that is all.

>> No.44211179

>>44211137
Combining Glamered with Comfort is probably what you are after.

>> No.44211203

How hugely influential can you get with your Aid Anothers? Increasing the bonus, decreasing the actions, increasing the number of dudes affected, etc...

>> No.44211206

>>44211179

>+7.7k gold just to look good

>> No.44211225

>>44210997

The only ways to change casting ability that I know of are:
- Empyreal wildblooded sorcerer archetype (Charisma -> Wisdom)
- Sage wildblooded sorcerer archetype (Charisma -> Intelligence)

And for third-party:
- Contemplative wilder archetype (Charisma -> Wisdom)
- Fearmonger dread archetype (Charisma -> Wisdom)
- Multiclassing tricks with Spheres of Power (anything -> anything else)

There are surely many other sources of such a swap. An Intelligence-based bard would be a particularly difficult request, since not even multiclassing tricks with Spheres of Power will accommodate such a thing (bardic performances will still be Charisma-based), and since Intelligence is generally a mechanically superior ability score compared to Charisma, especially considering the many cheap ways to use Intelligence in place of Charisma for social skills.

This is something you may have to plead with your GM for.

>> No.44211231

>>44211206
I didn't say it's smart. i just say it sounds like what he is after.

>> No.44211235

>>44211165
The discussion asking you to stop posting earlier (which you ignored to talk about the tier list even more) is probably the most obvious example for now.

You spam multiple threads with your chosen pet topic (again, currently the tier list), drowning out any other conversation as if your object of interest is the only thing that matters. A lot of people would see that as trying to dictate what gets discussed in /pfg/. The fact that you also have decided you get to pick what goes into the topic and what doesn't (pushing your preferred tier list, bothering the OP when he doesn't include everything you like) is just rubbing salt into the wound.

Seriously, you really need to slow down on posting, if not stop entirely, and learn to drop things.

>> No.44211239

Hey, when balancing a long dungeon, what proportion of CR encounters should I have?
Should most of the CRs be = APL? APL+1? How many APL + 2 or APL + 3 make sense? Are APL - 1 encounters too dull, or helpful breathers?

>> No.44211242

Could people get off their fucking ass burger long enough to answer some fucking questions, instead of sperging pocket spaghetti about one guy's fucking posts all fucking day?

For once?

>> No.44211261

>>44211206
>not spending 4.7k just to look good

What are you, a faggot?

>> No.44211265

>>44211206
Pimping ain't easy

>> No.44211277

>>44211242
What are your questions?

>> No.44211281

>>44211231
>>44211206

>Implying 7,700 gp is anything when I'm rich as Rockefeller.

The character this armor's for is the glorious industrialist I'm playing in that Not!Victorian setting, I want him to have the best in protection without looking ridiculously old-fashioned doing so.

>> No.44211285

>>44211225
Okay, thanks. I'll think of somewhere else to take the character.

>> No.44211308

>>44211242
I had my questions answered, maybe yours are dumb or impossible.

>> No.44211351

>>44211203

There are many ways to optimize Aid Another. A Google search for "aid another optimization site:paizo.com" will reveal to you many such builds, including these:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ntrl?Build-around-Aid-Another-madness

That said, perhaps the most effective means of improving your aid another actions is through Dreamscarred Press's warlord class and bushi class archetype (not necessarily together at once):

>Tactical Assistance (Ex): At 8th level, the warlord's gift for helping his allies in combat improves. The character may use the aid another action for any single ally within 30-ft. of his position as a move action, and he uses his Charisma modifier for the bonus he grants to his ally's action (min +2).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit
>Respect: The bushi respects all life, and knows that the strength of his allies support his own strength. Whenever the bushi uses the Aid Another action in or out of combat, he adds his initiation modifier (min +1) to the bonus that he grants his allies.

A bushi with the Helpful trait and Respect will confer 4 + initiation modifier for their aid another actions.

>> No.44211440

How good is the Warrior of the Holy Light archetype? I know it gets rid of spells, but the alternative seems decent for ally support and the like. Plus it seems like with would have really good synergy with Hospitaler or any other archetypes that lose out on some of thier mercies

>> No.44211459

>>44211203
Zealots have no small amount of support for aid another. They can use it on them-self, with a range attack, and eventually on any member of their collective (the distance of which scales to anywhere, on any plane). When a Zealot uses aid another, all members of the collective get a moral bonus to attack for one round, up to +6.

At level 20, a Zealot can defy death by merging with the collective. Would you like to take a guess at one of the few things you can do while waiting for a revive?

>> No.44211488

>>44211440
I had a lot of fun playing an Warrior of the Holy Ligh/Hospitaler/Oath of Charity Paladin.

It's a lot more support based than the usual
Paladin but I was playing an Dhampir so I had a con penalty which was why I didn't want to frontline anyways.

>> No.44211509

>>44211277
The bard archetypes; see >>44211050

>> No.44211512

>>44211203
Investigator 2, Tactician Fighter 11 can Aid Another up to 1+Intelligence modifier allies as a move action AND a swift action in addition to standard action use, and with the usual Helpful (Halfling) and Fools for Friends traits making those +5 Aid Anothers. That's +5 Attack and AC to allies in reach essentially, with either a Swift or a Standard action to spare depending on whether you want to spend Inspiration.

>> No.44211518

>>44211440
It's garbage.

>> No.44211542

>>44211512
Almost makes going Vital Strike worth it.

>> No.44211559

>>44211235

>The discussion asking you to stop posting earlier
Am I obligated to stop posting because others demand that I do so? I value a consensus (that is why a contact and I pooled together $75 to commission something from DSP on /pfg/'s behalf and settled on what to commission through a /pfg/ poll) to gauge what /pfg/ prefers, but I am not necessarily bound to always follow that consensus, am I?

>You spam multiple threads with your chosen pet topic (again, currently the tier list)
The first person to spark a true discussion on the tier list in this thread was >>44208884. Was I to simply ignore this person, even when their comment directly addressed me? You had previously expressed a displeasure towards me ignoring posters.

>as if your object of interest is the only thing that matters
I participate in conversations that interest me or directly address me. Tiers are a relevant point of discussion in /pfg/. If there is no interest in them, then people would not be so invested in them as to bring them up, have me respond, reply to me in kind, have me respond again, and so on and so forth. In other words, if it is of no interest to people, then why are people in /pfg/ so deeply invested in speaking of it?

>dictate what gets discussed
Is it any more "dictating" than someone starting a discussion on some facet of Golarion or another, which then engulfs the thread in 50+ posts regarding obscure setting minutiae? This occurs all of the time on /pfg/, and yet nobody seems to mind.

>(pushing your preferred tier list, bothering the OP when he doesn't include everything you like)
How exactly am I doing this? The OP themselves had included my own repository and my proposed tier list; I had simply provided updated versions of both the repository and the proposed tier list. I had also pushed for the inclusion of the Destruction handbook playtest in the OP for the reason I lay out in >>44208691. I thought that people had wished for such playtests to be prominent in the OP?

>> No.44211576

>>44211512
>tactician fighter 11
Ew.

>> No.44211590

>>44211576
Excuse me we're minmaxing dumb things here

>> No.44211638

What is Council of Thieves and why did Paizo think it was a remotely good AP to release?

In fact, I'll ask that about Second Darkness as well. They're boring.

>> No.44211639

>>44211239
I think it depends on just how long the dungeon is, measured in number of encounters. Remember that the game makes the assumption that a party should be able to handle 4 encounters of CR = APL or APL+1 per day. Assuming the dungeon doesn't have a convenient place for the party to get a full rest, I stick roughly to that. In most dungeons, I'll include two or three encounters with a CR = APL or APL+1, and a single "boss encounter" with a CR of APL+2 or 3.

For encounters with CR of APL-1, I consider those trash encounters that I don't count because the party shouldn't have any trouble with them. If there is a reason the party should have trouble with an encounter like that (being ambushed or having to fight them in a situation that favors the enemies, for example) then I increase the CR of the encounter accordingly. You're right about them being used as breathers. If it makes sense for an area of the dungeon to have some enemies in it but I don't want to give the PCs another challenging fight, I'll use a low-CR challenge like that. They won't get dull as long as you don't make them the norm. It feels good to just steamroll an encounter once in a while, so it can even be entertaining. It reminds the PCs that they're powerful.

Now, if by "long dungeon" you mean a dungeon that contains more than 4 encounters, what I tend to do is still stick to the above ratio (3:1 of average encounters to hard encounters with easy encounters included occasionally when context warrants it) but will include some area in the dungeon where the PCs will safely be able to get a night's rest. If I wanted the dungeon to include more encounters without giving the PCs a chance to rest, chances are all of them would be CR = APL, with maybe the boss encounter being APL+1. Harder than that, and the party just won't have enough resources to survive. Easier than that, and the string of weak enemies probably will bore the party.

>> No.44211688

>>44211239
Depends on the party. Most of the CRs should be equal to APL so that they use up the party's resources over time, boss encounters should be APL+1 following a lot of APL encounters, APL+2 for a smaller amount or APL+3 for particularly big fights or if they're not preceeded by a number of APL encounters, APL - 1 is good for mook encounters.

Unless your party has all initiators, in which case every fight has to be at APL+3.

>> No.44211693

>>44211512

>That's +5 Attack and AC to allies in reach essentially

Would those allies not also have to be threatened in melee by opponents, due to the rules for aiding another in combat?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Aid-Another
>Aid Another

>In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

>You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.

This is the one stipulation that most heavily restricts aid another combat builds.

>> No.44211717

>>44211509
Okay. first question: Anything that doesn't modify the same exact option can work together. If two things modify Inspire Courage, they can't both be used, but bardic performance is a blanket of options.

Also: Paizo is dumb, film at 11.

>> No.44211746

>>44209013
It's Crystal's tranny stand-in since she didn't want to make any transsexual characters that were Evil.
>brutish, masculine gargoyle turned into feminine, shiny sexbot

>> No.44211764

>>44211559
I don't often agree with you touhoufag , but I do here. Anon is just being a douche .

Thanks for the playtest link, and the updated tier document.

>> No.44211789

>>44211746

She's not touching Hell's Vengeance, that's good enough for me.

>> No.44211833

>>44210156
We're not getting refluffed villians, we're getting brand-new NPCs to drop into the existing APs.

EXE; for Shattered Star, we're getting the stats of that hermaphrodite Tiefling that worships Nocticula.

>> No.44211849

So I'm biting the bullet because I love you, Anon in an extremely sexual way

Anyone have something they want to see?

>> No.44211871

>>44211717
So, does something that alters or replaces Bardic Performance lock out other song changes -affecting Bardic Performance as in the category as a whole-, or is it purely locking out changes to the Bardic Performance component of Bardic Performance? The only one where we can tell for sure they meant the whole thing is Archaeologist. Others sometimes add songs, or remove songs, sometimes that's called a change to BP, sometimes just to that song...

While I'd love to trust the chart, that same chart claims dirge bards and arcane healers don't change anything at all (among others).

>> No.44211873

When did Path of War Expanded finish playtesting and see official release?

>> No.44211876

>>44211849
Give us the Insinuator, please anon, please!

>> No.44211889

>>44211849

>Magic Items
>Racial Options
>Traits

I will spend the entire day giving you cute little kisses and hand-holding if you give us these three.

>> No.44211890

>>44211849
The fight against good please

>> No.44211894

>>44211871
My understanding is that it just locks out further changes to the specific song.

>> No.44211905

>>44210616
Me as well. I don't really get the vitrol.

>> No.44211926

>>44210855
Primal Fury and Broken Blade are due for a nerf. Thrashing dragon is due for a rework. Steel Serpent is due for a buff. Black Seraph and Silver Crane are due for slight nerfs and tweaks, iirc.

>> No.44211927

>>44211050
>>44211509
>>44211871

The rubato archetype modifies the following: Spells, cantrips, Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Suggestion, Dirge of Doom, Inspire Greatness, Frightening Tune, Inspire Heroics, Mass Suggestion, Deadly Performance, Versatile Performance.

This means that these are the only archetypes compatible with the rubato:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/geisha
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/lotus-geisha
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-wayang/shadow-puppeteer-bard-wayang (wayang racial archetype)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming---bard-archetypes/bardic-weapon (third-party archetype)

Suffice it to say, if you are a bard (rubato), you would do well to have rubato be your one and only bard archetype. At the very least, with enough discipline swaps, you can potentially use your Perform skill bonus for all manner of skills, from Perception to Sense Motive to Stealth to, via Shattered Mirror, a handful of Craft skills.

>>44211764

What do you disagree with me on most frequently?

>> No.44211928

>>44211876
>>44211889
>>44211890
Alright, give me a few minutes while I get these pages jpeg'd.

>> No.44211936

>>44211638
Council of Thieves was supposed to be an urban war between the established thieves guild and the players who are the up-and comers trying to replace them.

Instead it became a series of massive dungeon crawls where the plucky CG rebels fight against the Lawful meanies. If they hadn;t been so bust with creating and releasing Pathfinder, I bet you anything it would have included a bulky, annoying sub-rule system to running a guild.

It was Hell's Rebel's: Dry Run.

Second Darkness was an adventure that promised us pirate shenanigans but then focused exclusively on Drow. Not a bad premise and good if that is what your group wants, but it made false promises and sepnt a lot of time on just how special Golarion Drow were and how they totally were not Greyhawk/Faerun Drow.

>> No.44211971

>>44211518
Care to explain why?

>> No.44211983

>>44210616
>>44211905
Are we tossing this http://pastebin.com/Q0E8C8wJ in the next OP/pastebin collection or leaving it out?

>> No.44211984

>>44211926
>Thrashing Dragon is due for a rework
It is? In what sense? Like tear it down and rebuild it from scratch?

I didn't realize there was a problem with Thrashing Dragon.

>> No.44211987

>>44211789
Thank God!
I like the fact that the green authors are getting a chance.

I think it would be fantastic if they started getting more active on the forums in response.

I just feel so warm and comfy thinking of how upset JJ, Crystal and what's her name are going to be over it and how badly they are going to deflect all the questions. It'll be six months of them being triggered and helpless to stop it.

>> No.44211996

>>44211983
>http://pastebin.com/Q0E8C8wJ
I support it. I think the way it's presented is a lot better than people arguing if an upgrade to a class solidly moves the entire class up a tier, and it's reasonably-written.

>> No.44212003

>>44211987
>It'll be six months of them being triggered and helpless to stop it.

You should read the Hell's Vengeance sub-thread, some people are already butthurt about the themes.

>> No.44212004

>>44211996
Everyone was bitching about it earlier.

>> No.44212023

>>44211984
No idea. Gareth's talked about how Thrashing Dragon has major problems, namely being the source of the best damage in PoW (battle dragon's stance -> Dragon Fury, then full attacks), and, more importantly, the way it's written encouraging players to never use strikes and just full attack, because most of its strikes are worthless compared to getting some sort of movement and being a TWF blender with no penalties, extra damage, and Power Attack as if you were two-handing each weapon.

>> No.44212027

>>44212003
You have to be bad!
People legit moaning about this

>> No.44212041

>>44212004
And yet a couple days ago people were in support of it. /pfg/ is weird about bandwagons.

>> No.44212047

>>44211927
Thanks.

>> No.44212051

>>44210628
I am 95% sure that you get an additional point of effective weapon enchantment bonus that you can spend on numerical +1 or a special ability. So at level 4 you wil have a total +2 from regular psicrystal augment class feature because of improved psicrystal augment blade skill.

>> No.44212079

>>44212003
>>44212027
This makes me moist.

>> No.44212103

>>44211996
I think it ignores how certain tiers come equipped with problem solving abilities from day 1 and still have the capacity to outperform lower tier classes at their specialty.
It seems to be wrote by a single person with their opinion.

>> No.44212122

>>44211849
For starters, here's an expanded ToC to look at. I'll get the other shit going shortly.

>> No.44212126

>>44212103
Probably worth adding that to it. Someone could clone the paste and add in changes to make it more what they want, perhaps. I would, but I'm busy being a terrible employee and posting from work.

>> No.44212128

>>44211996
>I think the way it's presented is a lot better than people arguing if an upgrade to a class solidly moves the entire class up a tier
I think it makes a very simple concept overly complicated. Tiers aren't for nuance, and the most nuance we get out of the current tier list is "X option is noticeably better than the base class".

On top of that its presentation is an eyesore, and very much presents as something written by an individual rather than any sort of community consensus.

>>44212041
/pfg/ is a collective, not a single entity with schizophrenia.

>> No.44212147

>>44212122
Gimme those feats, senpai

>> No.44212152

>>44212051
Probably this but *only* when overwriting a magical weapon that has an ability not on the list with your psicrystal augment.

So, find a +1, bane it, augment, and now it's replaced by <enhanced mind blade>at +1 over your usual values.

wierd as fuck wording.

>> No.44212158

>>44212051
And you weapon looses all regular (added with magic item creation, not class feature) enchantment. But you can add it back with your psicrystal augment class feature ofc.

>> No.44212160

>>44212126
I say do the same thing that was done with the 3.5 and PF tier list work: put it to different websites and accrue collective opinion.

>> No.44212171

>>44212122

>For the Money

>> No.44212185

>>44208618
Skinwalkers.

>> No.44212202

Anyway, now that the bitching's died down, here's a suggestion:

Hey touhoufag, why don't you just stick to answering people's questions for a while instead of trying to spearhead another huge project like the tier list? Might give the buttblasted people a chance to move on or something.

>> No.44212205

>>44210855

Aside from what has already been mentioned, Riven Hourglass and Shattered Mirror will be given downgrades in the final version of Path of War: Expanded.

>>44211996
>>44212004
>>44212027

I will probably not be the one to create the next thread, but for the one who does, could you please see to it that the following link repository pastebin be included instead of the one currently in the OP?
http://pastebin.com/sj0CVhYc

I had linked to this in >>44208573. It is merely an updated version of the pastebin link repository already in the OP.

I care not whether or not you place the proposed tier list revision in the next OP, but *if* you opt to do so, could you please post this updated version?
http://pastebin.com/Q0E8C8wJ

I had also linked to this updated version in >>44208573.

>>44212103

I am simply doubtful that tier 1 and tier 2 characters are "true" tier 1 and "true" tier 2 at the low levels. They are tier 3-4 at 1st level and gradually blossom upwards, but they simply do not have that many game-breaking options at the lower levels.

Compare a level 1-5 sorcerer (supposedly tier 2) to a level 1-5 bard.

The sorcerer has only 1st-level spells from levels 1 to 3, then has 2nd-level spells from levels 4 to 5.
The bard likewise has only 1st-level spells from levels 1 to 3, then has 2nd-level spells from levels 4 to 5.

The bard, however, is substantially more versatile than the sorcerer due to the bard's d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6 + Intelligence modifier skill points, and all manner of class feature that make the bard far more capable of solving problems than the sorcerer could ever hope for.

>> No.44212227

>>44212128
What's wrong with the presentation?

>> No.44212233

>>44209395
Way of the Wicked gives options at least.
Book 6 literally starts with a chapter saying 'sit down with your players and ask them how they want this to go down, you want to be defeated by the pure and kind good queen type for the full BBEG experience, or have a chance to win and for darkness to rule over all
It's pretty mature advice really and that's exactly why I don't expect such choice from Paizo.

>> No.44212259

>>44212205
Those first level spells, picked with care, can bring all manner of versatility, like the summon monster series, or druid.
Further, the sorcs spell list is flat out better, with more possibility, even if it just came down to using wands and scrolls.

>> No.44212270

>>44212205
The final version? What version is currently out now? Is it still the playtest version?

>> No.44212304

>>44212227
The "original" tier list is concise and gives just enough information as necessary, the "revised" tier list is almost 4x the size while conveying basically the same amount of information.

>> No.44212322

>>44211996
First things first, I would modify this a little: 5th level spells or SIXTH level psionic powers. The psionics tend to be a little behind by like half a spell level in power, though it's also worth noting they don't autoscale, which reduces either power or flexibility at any given moment.

Second: Gambler I can see as reaching T4, but I'm gonna need some serious proof that it can be T3.

Additional major upgrades to Aegis: Power Stone Harness/Repository, Akashic Veilshaping and Essence Pool. Minor upgrade: Harness Skill Shard (+10 to whichever skill for 1pp per check forever)

>> No.44212334

>>44212304
Given that there's a bunch of idiots (see: BUILDPOSTER and "damage is the thing that makes a class good") who misinterpret what the tiers mean, I think that it probably wasn't doing its job.

>> No.44212357

>>44212334
There have always been people who have misinterpreted it, even in 3.5 days when people shouted that tiers didn't even exist.

>> No.44212360

So are the Psychic duel rules any good? Or are they a sack of leathery wank and chips.

How do they measure up in terms of sub-system balance?

>> No.44212362

>>44212322
Gambler gets powers known off the psion/wilder list, can get all the blasting powers it needs from the Roulette wager, and if it's careful, never needs to run out of pp. It's got both combat power (blasting, debuff-delivery, anti-mage stuff, even) and versatility (the ability to spend its powers on other things). I think it's probably worth considering T3 if the psychic warrior is T3.

>> No.44212369

>>44212259

The sorcerer and the bard's 1st- and 2nd-level spell lists share Charm Person, Grease, Silent Image, Sleep, Summon Monster I, Alter Self, Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, and Summon Monster II. The bard lacks Color Spray and Create Pit, but makes up for it by receiving Pugwampi's Grace and Suggestion levels before the sorcerer does.

The sorcerer slightly outperforms (pun unintentional) the bard in the spellcasting field, but in every other possible respect, the bard wins out. The bard can compete in a far larger variety of fields, and that is why at levels 1 to 5, the bard is tier 3 while the sorcerer is tier 4, although the sorcerer probably breaches a tier come 6th level.

>>44212304

Is the vertical orientation the issue? If so, I can change it to a horizontal orientation.

>> No.44212387

Alrighty, here we go. First off, the Insinuator Antipaladin.

>> No.44212391

>>44212334
No, it's just that those people are retards who don't actually read what is presented to them. Buildposter should not be held up as the average person.

Having been new to pathfinder and /pfg/ at one point, the tier list still made nearly perfect sense because I don't have an adamantine skull.

also BURGERS ARE NOT SANDWICHES HIROSHIMOOT

>>44212369
>Is the vertical orientation the issue? If so, I can change it to a horizontal orientation
If you could format the list in a manner that wasn't eye cancer it'd solve one of the larger issues. It's pointless though, because as I've said the tier list has no need for nuance as it defeats the purpose of the tier list.

>> No.44212401

>>44212369
Okay, I have to ask. What is it with people drawing Raiko with an exposed butt? Her skirt goes almost to her knees normally.

I think that trying to make the tier list account for levels is a bad idea, myself. That's needlessly complex, and if we explain what it is well enough, we can later elaborate.

>> No.44212417

>>44212362
Well alrighty then.

>> No.44212427

>>44212387
Also got a little something here for people to fight against good.
>literally a feat to beg for mercy
Sunder Blessing is neat tho

>> No.44212428

>>44212387

>Invocation
>You can have a long-term partnership with an Outsider
>I finally have a reason to have a succubutt buddy

This is beautiful.

>> No.44212438

>>44209607
>>44209702
I'll second the offer of playing a Slayer. It's a simple-to-play class that is effective at what it does, doesn't require you to delve into a confusing subsystem like magic/psionics/animal companions, and is flexible in what you want it to be.

>> No.44212448

>>44208573
Add superstition power to the "major upgradees" of the barbarian. Especialy with the fcb that makes it larger. Your saves go off into bullshit land forcing enemy mages to play the game your way

>> No.44212462

>>44212427
How about some racial options? Not too much here, although there's a racial feat to keep you changelings qt instead of turning into hags.

>> No.44212489

>>44212448
also:
>air/earth bender now tier 4
yay!
>ranged fighter not tier 4
meh. Not sur ehow to do it though. Its a super specific build, but it is still leaps ahead of any other fighter weapon choice.

Maybe:
Tier 4:
Fighter (only when focusing on bow damage dealing)?

>> No.44212505

>>44212489
One more thing. Is zen archer monk tier 4 or 5? It's a really good build.

>> No.44212512

>>44212489
>
"Major upgrade: bow as a primary weapon and focus" perhaps?

>> No.44212515

>>44212322

5th-level psion powers include Incarnate (Permanency), Pierce the Veils (True Seeing), Planar Travel (Plane Shift), and Psychoport (Teleport). Still, you are correct: psionics does lag behind, and it is difficult to acquire all of those at once. Perhaps it really should say 6th-level powers.

You raise good points about Power Stone Harness/Repository, Akashic Veilshaping, and Essence Pool, and Harness Skill Shard is probably enough to be considered "major" in its own regard.

>>44212401

I would not know about Raiko.

You raise a fair point. Perhaps there should be a disclaimer that the tier list takes into account a class's entire career from levels 1 to 20 *without* being weighted towards the lower levels?

>>44212448

A good suggestion, but perhaps that should be noted only for parties that are not buff-heavy?

>>44212489

I do list down archery as a "major upgrade" for the fighter.

>> No.44212517

>>44212462
>seed of a tree of giants for undead
mitebcool

>> No.44212521

>>44210608
Because if you can give Paizo credit for anything at all, it's that they don't release things on a hype-based schedule using meta-knowledge. They didn't release the Investigator as a new class when the Sherlock Holmes movies were being released even though it's literally Holmes The Class, they didn't release the Hunter when Brave came out (even though the iconic Hunter looks exactly like that movie's heroine), and so forth. Frankly I'd rather never have an 'official' LotLK AP than have one that was rushed to meet a hype-deadline.

>> No.44212545

>>44212517
>imperious headband
>an item to enable being a rich owner of a sweatshop
Yes

>> No.44212559

>>44212489
Jesus christ, adamantine was a poor comparison. If I could forge armor out of whatever material your skull is made out of it would deflect 9th level spells.

The bow fighter is stronger than a fighter, this does not make it tier 4 because it is ONLY GOOD AT DO DAMAGE AT THING WITH NO TRICKS

>> No.44212565

>>44212545

>Imperious Headband

I'm totally buying this for my PC when the time comes.

>> No.44212573

>>44212515
>You raise a fair point. Perhaps there should be a disclaimer that the tier list takes into account a class's entire career from levels 1 to 20 *without* being weighted towards the lower levels?

Yeah, I think it'd be much better than trying to segment the tier list even further - I'm just sure it needs to be said; wouldn't that be the assumption?

>> No.44212585

>>44212369
>Is the vertical orientation the issue?
No. The problem is you're essentially trying to, if you will excuse the usage of metaphor, turn a limerick into an epic edda, despite the fact that doing so provides no actual increase in value and only serves to obfuscate the original meaning and usage.

>> No.44212586

>>44212559
To be fair, back in 3.5, the Barbarian was solidly tier 4 because it was good at do damage at thing with no tricks (mostly because it got early pounce access). The tier definitions haven't changed much, if at all. I'd consider archery worth calling a major upgrade.

>> No.44212610

>>44212515
>disclaimer

Either a disclaimer or not having it at all. It's implicit.

>> No.44212625

>>44212147
Anything specific that's not in the pages posted?

>>44212171
For you

>> No.44212626

>>44212573
*I'm just not sure

In other words, wouldn't it be assumed that the tier list was for 1-20?

>> No.44212636

>>44212625
>For you

>> No.44212643

>>44212625
I'd like to see the story feats, myself.

>> No.44212653

>>44212625

>Carnal Attraction
>Does not try to mention carnal relations or even sex in the list of potential vices

I've noticed this theme with all of Paizo's works, they *really* don't like sex, don't they?

>> No.44212675

>>44212653

They only like sex when it's rape and pregnancy fetishization.

>> No.44212679

Can scananon list weapon special abilities?

>> No.44212686

>>44212653
Sex is gross and used by penis bearing rape monsters to opress free spirited womyn

Unless it's between two womyn, then its pure.

>> No.44212705

>>44212512
well...eh. non-bow fighters are tier 5 due to never really dealing enough damage. Not sure about splitting the class up between tiers though. There is just such a huge divide between bow fighter and not-bow fighter

>>44212515
>A good suggestion, but perhaps that should be noted only for parties that are not buff-heavy?
Honestly it's just as important as beast totem. Combined with a headband of havoc it results in a "nothing can touch you except with HP damage, and you always win that fight". A fighter can deal equal(if not better) levels of damage when using a bow, but it's saves are much lower, making it general much more vulnerable.

>>44212559
"do damage with no tricks" can also mean "fully resolve almost every combat solo without aid". bow fighter just fucking obliterates 95% of the monster manual. Its a huge difference.

Bow fighter: Obliterates monster manual
Pounce barbarian: melee, focused, and kills less, but much much harder to disable/kill/stop. You can be ambushed and still win most fights.

>>44212573
just say the tier list accounts for levels 6-12. Game doesn't work at level 13 and there are some one-level wonder builds that shouldn't count at lower levels. (reach combat reflexes fighter)

>>44212653
>implying you need to mention sex in the books for creepy neckbeards to start sweating and breathing heavy
remember those spells that make us ask "is the npc after my dick?"? yea. lets just avoid that ok?

>> No.44212717

>>44212625
>>44212545

>Imperious Headband
>For the Money Trait

Guys, what else should I stack on this to become the best Industrialist I can be?

>> No.44212730

>>44212625

Giving Devils their Due/anything on Tieflings

>> No.44212737

>>44212675

>Pregnancy fetishization

They do this? Last I checked the only things that actually get pregnant in Pathfinder are evil.

>> No.44212756

>>44212679
You mean the ones here? >>44212517

>>44212643
These are actually kind of neat, it ties roleplaying into mechanical benefit.

>> No.44212762

>>44212705
>remember those spells that make us ask "is the npc after my dick?"? yea. lets just avoid that ok?

Reminds me of the "Charming" trait, which gives you a +1 bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate on anyone that finds you *sexually* attractive.

>> No.44212775

>>44212737
On a meta level, Paizo has more rape and pregnancy, pregnancy-by-rape, and stuff relating to it than I've ever seen in a more "mainstream" ttrpg (inasmuch as one can be). It creeps me the fuck out how often they just shoehorn rape into anything evil.

>> No.44212776

>>44212717
Either Noble Scion or Prophet of Kalistrade PrCs. The latter is better if you wanna go full Captain of Industry

>> No.44212777

>>44212737

If we had a good Drakaina for every not-evil necromancer people try to come up with...

>> No.44212802

>>44212762
exactly. Seducer's eyes is a bard spell that does it.

Not a conversation I enjoy having. I usually just skip those abilities.

>>44212775
I have really noticed this too.

>> No.44212811

>>44212730
Got some racial stuff here >>44212462

>> No.44212816

>>44212756
>Gruesome Butcher
>only soldiers can be mass murdering hatemongers
Seriously?

>> No.44212818

>>44212775
I'm like 99% sure that someone at Paizo is and has been magical realming their game.

>> No.44212823

>>44212756
Not as bad as 3.5's UA Achievement feats, at least.

>> No.44212825

>>44208573
Add "half orc scarred witch doctor" to the upgraded witch. +2 int for free is bullshit.

>> No.44212827

>>44212545
>Meduseion

Oh yes. Yessss.

>> No.44212835

>>44212756
No, that has premade magic weapons and armor special abilities.
I'm looking for the magic abilities you can add to armor.

>> No.44212870

>>44212816
That's because it ties into the background generation table.

>> No.44212882

>>44212776

>Prophet of Kalistrade

Well... Shit, Business Acumen is amazing but that's 6 levels into the PrC, not good if I'm slated to play the Zweihander Sentinel tank/melee in a group of Alchemists and spellcasters.

You could argue I'm just not going to be that useful in the party, considering how powerful everyone else is. Personally, I see it as a chance to really play up the Victorian dandy my character will be, purposefully putting himself in dangerous situations because he *knows* he's not actually in danger, like he's on a fantasy Safari with a bunch of natives making sure he doesn't actually get hurt.

>> No.44212884

>>44212625
>Indolence

That's as Neutral as anyone could possibly be. It is the definition of Not Caring. How is it a motivation towards Evil?

>> No.44212890

>>44212811

>If you DO outmaneuver a devil, it will devote a lot of time and effort towards a massively disproportionate retribution.

Well, that might stop some of my players from thinking it's safe-ish to try contract work with devils because it's convenient.

>> No.44212919

>>44212818
>I'm like 99% sure that someone at Paizo is and has been magical realming their game.

Why not look into the authors of the sex/rape/pregnancy-filled books and figure out who is writing most of them?

>> No.44212920

>>44212835
Yeah, those are the Bloodthirsty, Deceiving, Malevolent, and Weeping enchantments. There's nothing else in here about weapons or armor.

>> No.44212926

>>44212884

Don't you know? Neutral is the same as evil. "If you're not with us, you're against us."

I am so tired of alignment, and wish that Paizo didn't put as much stock into it.

>> No.44212945

>>44212919
Because I'm lazy and honestly don't want to look into or think about this stuff.

>> No.44212985

>>44212811
>Detect Fiendish Presence
>It can also detect clerics and PALADINS of fiendish deities, including Asmodeus, archdevils, daemonic harbingers and demon lords.
>Mfw Paladins of Asmodeus are now canon.

>> No.44212998

>>44212985
I bet they meant "antipaladins." That's fucking hilarious.

>> No.44213009

>>44212985
>implying paladins aren't just a cleric->warpreist->paladin thing where they uphold a god's will regardless if it's "good" or not and smite things opposite of the god's will

>> No.44213024

>go to pharasma
>get this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns7otcjQ_jk
what do

>> No.44213044

>>44213024

Expand dong.

>> No.44213061

Thread's going down, so I'll leave you with this little gem until the next one.

>CRAAAAAAWLING INNNN MY SKIIIIIIIN

>> No.44213068

>>44208573
add "jumping ship after level 5" to major upgrade on the gunslinger class

>> No.44213083

>>44213024
I don't know if I want the context on that video or not. I've heard how horrible that cartoon was.

>> No.44213111

>>44212985
Someone is doing an A+ job at sneaking Paladins of Asmodeus into Golarion!

>> No.44213138

>>44213111
>>44212985

I'd laugh so hard if Hell's Vengeance included a "Paladin" of Asmodeus as a joke.

>> No.44213149

>>44213068
Ok, that was funny.

>> No.44213159

>>44213138
That'd require Paizo to have a subtle and clever sense of humor.

>> No.44213168

>>44213138
Who better to heal Cheliax of the wounds of the Glorious Reclamation?

>> No.44213185

>>44213159

The people making Hell's Vengeance might have a subtle and clever sense of humor, it's none of the people we're used to, and the lead editor is the guy who's worked on most of the "good" supplements that have been released lately.

>> No.44213209

>>44213061
>Ahah! No one will suspect this poisoned potato!

>> No.44213217

>>44213159
Remember, the usual suspects aren't involved with Hell's Vengeance and want nothing to do with it.

>> No.44213225

>>44210156
Waiting on them Iron Gods NPCs

>> No.44213227

So why doesn't Eternal Guardian get talked about much?

>> No.44213246

>>44213159
>>44213185
>>44213217

Ultimately, I think the thing that will determine whether or not Hell's Vengeance is good will be the Player's Guide, which is arriving in January... I think.

>> No.44213252

>>44212811

Ooo thank you much!

>> No.44213326

>>44212387
Hmm what sort of outsider would work for an Insinuator that pretends to be good?

>> No.44213329

>>44213246
They usually are a good indicator of the quality of the Path. Hell's Rebel's PG was a clusterfuck.

>> No.44213452

What is a cool poison for an enemie to use on PCs? In his blade, I mean.

>> No.44213455

>>44212545
>mockingskull
I don't care if I'm playing a paladin I'm getting one of these.

>> No.44213457

>Hell's Vengeance: For Queen and Empire
>The Hell’s Vengeance Adventure Path marches on! Her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail II of Cheliax summons her agents to the city of Egorian to address the current crisis with the Glorious Reclamation. Arriving in the imperial capital, the adventurers find themselves swept up in the cutthroat politics of the imperial court. To impress the queen and secure a royal audience, the wicked characters must scour Egorian to root out and eradicate a secret organization that works to free halfling slaves. But to truly earn Queen Abrogail’s trust, the adventurers must perform a sacrifice for the queen to renew Thrune’s contract with Hell, and there are many—both within the court and without—that wish to see Thrune dethroned.

You seem to meet a qt Tiefling in Book 3, as well.

>> No.44213509

NEW BREAD WHEN??

>> No.44213518

>>44213452
Why not try one of these? >>44213061

>> No.44213523

>>44213509
Page 10.

>> No.44213572

>>44213457
>qt tielfling
>get to dismantle and destroy the Bellflower Network
>meet Her Infernal Majestrix Queen Abrogail II
>may gets stats for the Queen
>possibly waifu her

I am so hype.

>> No.44213574

New thread (broken promises):
>>44213566
>>44213566

>> No.44213602

>>44213061

>Widow's Kiss
>Ingested

Well, my players are never going to eat anything ever again if someone's mad at them.

>> No.44213623

>>44213574
We are on page 6 you nigger.

>> No.44214022

Building a Saurian Shaman - should I take a Velociraptor mongoliensis, a Tyrannosaurus rex, an Apatosaurus, or an Ankylosaurus for my Animal Companion?

>> No.44214420

>>44211927
Mostly your of your opinions regarding what makes a good game. I'm not a fan of the 4e/strike tactical mini game serve centrepiece of an RPG. I think combat should be less common and faster. I also happen to like t2 classes.

Different tastes, basically

>> No.44214529

>>44213159
Asmodean Paladin are a thing.

>>
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