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[ERROR] No.43640421 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

They're not pals and they're not...

On a more serious note, what is it with the paladin class that evokes so many powerful feelings in /tg/ and the roleplay community in general? When you ask people for their most beloved class, a significant portion of players will mention the paladin. When you ask them for their most hated class, many will also mention the paladin. Paladin's are considered one of the most waifable classes while others cringe at the idea of a a paladin romance being brought up in a game.

So what is it about paladin that evokes so many powerful emotions in us?

Pic related, believe it or not

>> No.43640447

Because its a really easy character to fuck up the role play for, while being such an idealistic character to play. The concept is beautiful, but on the table it's alot harder to pull off properly.

>> No.43640495

>>43640421
My emotions right now are annoyance, due to you shitting up the place with your thinly veiled smut thread about female paladins, as if we haven't had discussions like this a billion times before.

>> No.43640634

>>43640421
>waifable
If your paladin has low Con, then you're playing them wrong.

>> No.43640657

Mechanically, is there any other class that specializes in fighting the undead, demons and other foul creatures, with magic.

>> No.43640665

>>43640657
Clerics?

>> No.43640700

Well basically people don't really do alignment when roleplaying and the paladin is an alignment - matters class.

>> No.43640784

>>43640657
Cleric, they can usually do it better too.

The thing about paladins is, they are the pinnacle of our legends.
Holy warriors pure of heart and clad in divine energies facing down a great peril without hesitation, ready to give their lives to defend those who cannot.

Something about that speaks to us on so many levels. Even non-religious people can see the greatness behind the Knight in Shining Armor. They are the ultimate force of good and justice in a world that despises them.

Playing a paladin is to challenge the evil of the world directly and mercilessly, while helping those in need.
People may hate paladins because when played, they may not live up to the golden standard.

Another reason may be that some are sick of the "Goody-two-shoes" ideal and want darker characters with morally grey personalities.
Nothing inherintly wrong with that, but a paladin shakes that idea to the very core.

>> No.43640998

>>43640421
People that hate paladins tend to have played with bad players that used them.

>> No.43641088

>>43640998
To expand on this.
I have met many people with the same experience of an arrogant wannabe leader playing a paladin.
The paladin demands to be the leader and if they don't get to call all the shots they throw a fit. Many times the paladin has also attacked other players .

>> No.43641170

>>43640421
Their ethics limit the mechanical and roleplay options of other people, for better or worse. A party with a paladin and 5 other people all have to deal with the paladin's shit or throw the paladin out. Not sure what other class gets such a position by default.

>> No.43641229

Because the entire core of the class is being a moralistic crusader, which seems to attract the sort of player that enjoys being considered a moral authority.

Also I strongly dislike them on the basis that they're a niche already covered by clerics, whose only defining feature is "they're good, like really good" which could just be covered with roleplaying.

>> No.43641401

>>43640421

We all wish the world was simply divided into good and evil, and that a man could know he's doing good by simply opposing what he knows is wrong.

When people begin to get frustrated with the ambiguities of reality where there's no black-and-white morality there's a natural pushback against this worldview as childish or simplistic. This is why edgelords love coming up with situations where a paladin falls no matter what they choose - they find it hard to keep believing, but they want to tell themselves it's because they're too smart to believe.

If you keep pushing you'll see that you can still try to be a force for good in a world of grays, it just takes a more tempered approach and a willingness to keep working against odds that feel impossible. Compassion and empathy start to fill spaces that used to be bitterness and defeatism. You'll make a difference, and you'll feel better for dreaming that impossible dream. And I do mean this both at and away from the table.

This whole thread probably became a Lewd Paladin thread while I've been typing anyway.

>> No.43641595

>>43641401
I'm seriously fascinted how this guy is wrong with the spoiler.
Either the participation is too low or /tg/ has one of it's rare moments whih makes me a bit proud guys.

>> No.43641658

>>43641401
>DETECT AND SMITE!

>> No.43641697

>>43641595
Well, the OP girl isn't a real paladin.

She's just a slut.

>> No.43641717

>>43641088
>The paladin demands to be the leader and if they don't get to call all the shots they throw a fit. Many times the paladin has also attacked other players .

Wow. That's fucking retarded.

>> No.43641764

>>43641595
>Either the participation is too low or /tg/ has one of it's rare moments whih makes me a bit proud guys.
I almost wanted to post more Bikini Warrior Paladin, but then I saw your post and decided I didn't want to disappoint you.

>> No.43641938

>>43640784
pretty much this.
A Cleric is just a holy guy who does things.

A Paladin is an idea

>> No.43641966

>>43640421
OP, something else I don't really understand about fa/tg/uy Paladin fanatics is how they judge people by their role-playing characters. How does the persona I adopt for a game of pretend reflect anything about me?

I've played edgelord characters before. I've played upstanding paladin characters before. I've played lots of classes based on my mood. Why do so many fa/tg/uys act like them preferring a certain type of character in a role-playing game makes them superior in real life? They're just games, people.

>> No.43642039

Figher was here. Paladins are pretty cool guys that do good things.I just don't appreciate having to give up poker night at the tabern in exchange for praying at a temple.

>> No.43642060

>>43642039
Also, fuck me for writing tavern with a "b". Party's wizard is going to kill me.

>> No.43642066

>>43640421
Paladins are really easy to play wrong. A lot of people assume that because they have a moral code they must follow paladins are all stick in the ass do-gooders whose code makes them completely blind to logic. Like if the PCs device a plan to sneak into a corrupt lord's castle to find proof that he's been stealing money from the crown, the paladin decides that sneaking around is wrong and goes to turn the party in because Baron von Badguy is the lawful ruler of the province. Or poeple play them as mindless smite-bots whose entire behaviour consists of a flow-chart (does it detect as evil? y: SMITE, n, move on).

Or DMs just use the paladin's code as an excuse to engineer convulted situations that lead to them falling (Oh no, Baron von Badguy has pushed a cart full of nuns down a hill! It's going to crash into those people unless you push this baby in front of it!")

>> No.43642100

>>43641697
She's pure. She just fantasizes about being a slut.

>> No.43642168

>>43640784
>>43640665
My problem with Clerics is they usually don't have mounts

>> No.43642180

I do dislike the idea that the Paladin was made into a class. Even though PrCs were a terrible concept it makes sense that one has to earn the right to be a Paladin rather then just be one from the get go which is especially strange when you consider the Paladin's counterpart, the Black Guard, was a PrC that anyone could go into assuming they met the PrC's requirement so you could easily have a fighter who's a Blackguard or a Wizard who's a Blackguard but Paladin is just Paladin.

>> No.43642202

>>43640421
They bring out the idealist in people.

Tabletop games are basically rooted in escapism. Things like honour and chivalry, which doesn't exist in today's society but are still subconsciously romanticized by a large percentage of people (especially in this hobby) can be freely expressed without rancor through the humble paladin.

>> No.43642216

>>43642180
In 5e you can't be a real paladin until level 3, since you can't actually swear your oath until 3rd level. You're either in training to become a paladin, or just know that it's your destiny to become one.

>> No.43642243

>>43641764
>I almost wanted to post more Bikini Warrior Paladin, but then I saw your post and decided I didn't want to disappoint you.

Are non-lewd paladins okay?

>> No.43642296

>>43642180
PrCs were a great concept. It was basically designed to be branching classes that provided more options the higher you went.

It's just that the execution was fucking awful.

>> No.43642412

>>43642216

Yes I know, what I said only really applies to caster edition but that's just my feelings on it

>>43642296

I agree but then again having 20 levels seems arbitrary seeing as, according to a number of anecdotal accounts, most games never get to the point where you hit the capstones of the class.

I much prefer the way 5e handles it where the archetypes fit a certain idea within the classes frame without having to waste levels going into another class entirely bt I'll say no more least someone bitches about "no fun allowed" because I think multi-classing is dumb.

>> No.43642431

>>43642243
got any sauce for this?
its a bit flavorless right now.

>> No.43642528

>>43640421
Some immature manchildren are incapable of dealing with a realistic setting and are obsessed with pretending that they can "fix" things. These white knights are the worst sort of players.

>> No.43642601

>>43642528

>> No.43642655

>>43642528
>this guy again

>> No.43642732

>>43642655
>tfw no cute, extremely waifable paladinfu who is an ALLY OF JUSTICE

>> No.43642763

>>43642655
I love how your response to him calling paladin fans immature manchildren is a comic where someone uses violence as a response to an argument.

>> No.43642772

Because most people, even the neckbeards in /tg/ (especially the neckbeards in /tg/) inherently have a moral compass and want to be good. /tg/ just has a boner for being good in the face of adversity.

>> No.43642799

>>43642763
It wasn't really an argument, and welcome to Kamen Rider you fucking faggot. Violence is not inherently bad, and good doesn't mean nice.

>> No.43642820

>>43642799
So, Kamen rider, where would-be totalitarians kick people in the face for having an opinion? Shining fucking endorsement there.

>> No.43642848

>>43642820
Shut the fuck up, Akagi.

>> No.43642858

>>43642820
>where murderhobos kick people in the face for having an opinion?

>> No.43642903

>>43642732
>implying she's a Paladin and not just a hyperbolic take on capeshit
Doesn't help she's from a shitty show

>> No.43642920

>>43642763
Welcome paladin players, they behave like children (oftentimes because they are) and when they eventually do so in game they complain whenever they face realistic consequences (like falling).

>> No.43642933

Paladins are a reminder that idealism is not dead and we - all of us - could be better people if we tried. There's a certain kind of person who doesn't take well to such reminders.

That, and Paladins are so very, very easy to get wrong, either as a player or GM.

>> No.43642948

>>43642732
>Seiryu
>Paladin

Nah, m8, that's a Hellknight right there.

>> No.43642951

>>43642920
Go back to your WH40k threads and don't come back before you've matured a bit, kiddo.

>> No.43642983

I think the surest sign that the paladin is an ill-conceived concept at best is that every player thinks that their way of playing one is the correct way to play the class, and that every other player is playing it wrong. You don't see this kind of shit with any other class, even clerics.

>> No.43642992

>>43642920
>I know! I'll railroad him into a situation he has no good way out of and block off any option that isn't something a child or a mindless psychopath would do! That'll show him to be an idealist!

>Why is the player whose fun I've ruined angry with me?

>> No.43643003

>>43642951
I'm sorry if I don't like having my games spoiled by people not mature enough to comprehend complex storytelling.

>> No.43643014

>>43643003
"Complex storytelling" does not equal grimdark horseshit.

>> No.43643020

>>43643003
Like >>43642992 for example.

>> No.43643034

>>43642528

I kinda feel like people who think realistic settings are "DM's grimdark tour of rapemurder, the rape and murder capital of the world. You must be at least this evil to play," are barking up the wrong tree.

Grimdark isn't "realistic" any more than noblebright is, it's just fetishizing human unpleasantness as opposed to idealizing human virtues.

>> No.43643038

And this is why no one talks about paladins. The people who actually play them have fun with them most of the time, and the only ones who want to talk about them are either self righteous fanboy idiots or edgy hater idiots

>> No.43643052

>>43643003
>muh Game of Thrones
>muh grit

For the last bloody time, people, cynical does not equal complex or intelligent.

"Everyone is horrible and nothing good happens ever" is even worse writing than "happily ever after," because at least you can care about Disney-tier characters. When the entire universe is horrible and everyone in it deserves to suffer in their eternal torment, none of the central conflicts even matter anymore. You don't even care who wins because everyone is equally repulsive.

>> No.43643071

>>43642060
Listen buddy, im not going to ask you to stop drinking. I'll even have a few rounds with you. But when you down a barrel of Johnny Jump Up and try to challenge the fountain to a pissing contest, it does rather tend to put people off. Particularly our employers. So maybie a few less?

>> No.43643086

>>43643052
Not that guy, but you do know there are other works that aren't particularly nice and star some very not nice people that aren't a total shit-show, right? One of the most influential works in western literature, the Iliad, is an example. The moral reasoning of a paladin would be quite out of place there.

>> No.43643087

>>43642983
This and
>>43642180
This sum up most of my feelings on the subject. Paladin doesn't fit in with the other classes in theme as they are all how you get shit done and paladin is why, I don't dislike them but they seemed out of place in 3.5 (when I got into DnD).

>> No.43643090

>>43643071

I am admittedly a huge fan of responsible bro paladin. He's a pretty cool guy to have around.

>> No.43643110

>>43643038
I don't even think the Paladin Internet Defense Force would be a thing if people didn't see a need to judge things about people's personalities based on what classes they like playing in RPG's. They could easily just like the mechanics, for crying out loud.

That's like saying anyone who plays a Barbarian is a beta trying to live out his power fantasies, or anyone playing an Elf is an airheaded klutz in real life. The class you pick doesn't mean anything besides "which mechanics do I want to use during this game?"

>> No.43643128

>>43643086
I do know that, but every GM I've ever seen have a problem with Paladins brings up Incest Simulator: The Book.

I WISH one of them would be inspired by the Iliad.

>> No.43643136

>>43643052
Then again, it'd be awesome to play a paladin and his band of do-gooders in a grimderp world.

>A tavern in a shady part of town
>The paladin batters the door open with the body of a thief who tried to slit his throat
>He walks in and smashes a bunch of thugs over the head with their own table
>Decapitates another thug
>Detects evil on a local prostitute
>Tears the evil spawning inside of her out of her womb yes, like that
>Stabs the bartender through the chest
>Cuts the faucet off a beer barrel and starts filling Steins for himself and his mates
>"Call the guards, I don't give a fuck"

It's like being a total douchebag, except you're the good guy somehow.

>> No.43643175

>>43643090
Responsible Broadin is my Paladin of choice. What can I say, its fun to be the good guy without having to push your views on others.

>> No.43643178

>>43643128
Well, I really like the Iliad. I could take up GMing some time. Not for you (I don't do online games), but you can take comfort that the Iliad would be a big source of inspiration for me.

>> No.43643220

>>43643052
It's not my fault if George RR Martin is the only person writing realistic fantasy.

>>43643034
>>43643014
>muh grimdark
>muh buzzwords

>>43643038
Well if trying to educate people makes one a "hater" then I shall wear the name with pride.

>> No.43643235

>>43643220

>> No.43643242

>>43643220
>Well if trying to educate people makes one a "hater" then I shall wear the name with pride.
And the award to most euphoric comment of the week goes to...

>> No.43643243

>>43643220
Listen, anon, I know you might not want to hear this, but happiness is closer than you think. You've gotta talk about these things, ya know? Discuss your pain and work through it instead of just bottling it up and letting it make you all bitter and shriveled.

There are hotlines you can call.

>> No.43643267

>>43641088
Man, having a "leader" is fucking retarded

>> No.43643292

>>43643220

>> No.43643300

>>43642243
But she is the lewdest

>> No.43643334

>>43642983
That's because people like to forget that clerics/druids/etc are bound under just as strict laws of conduct, but they are far more defined.
I'm a paladin in a party with another paladin, and I like how we both have different methods of doing the same thing, but that doesn't mean I don't ask him "Hey, man, why not do it like this? Why do you do your thing?", because good roleplay results from it.
That said, it's the roundly held opinion the guy is playing a poor paladin more concerned with smiting evil than doing good.
Further, I, like >>43643175, but am also entirely willing to call people out for being fucktards, like the 2 guys who tortured a prisoner I brought in while I was in the building, or the shopkeepers who were arguing because one was willing to give me freebies when I was stone broke and the other one just wanted money.

>> No.43643354

A good paladin character is usually the result of the best player in the group, because to act like a paladin in-game you generally act like one out of game.

>> No.43643392

>>43643136
>It's like being a total douchebag, except you're the good guy somehow
No it's just being a douchebag while using a belief in some magic sky fairy to justify your actions.

>> No.43643403

>>43641088
That's the player, not the class.
The stupid player thinks the class gives them the right.
I play a paladin, I lead from the front. First in, last out, no one is left behind. It's gotten me killed a few times, but I've always held the idea that paladin isn't a class, it's a title, and you need to fucking own up to it.
It's hard, dammit, to be better, to offer chances, accept responsibility, go without when others need it more, always putting the best face forward because a PALADIN isn't just a warrior, but a symbol that yes, good is there in the world, and it will get shit done for those who can't. A good paladin can even be conflicted internally about the weight of the burden they carry, and I believe they should, because only groundless arrogance would belay it.
But you do it every day, because it's not about you, it's about the people everywhere you are fighting for. That's a fucking paladin, and anything less is a scumbag fighter prancing about with fancy word on their character sheet.

>> No.43643416

>>43643354
By murdering people who don't believe what you do. Because that's what real religious warriors do.

>> No.43643445

>>43643136
There's nothing in the paladin code about not being a douchebag.

God doesn't care as long as you get results

>> No.43643453

>>43643445
>There's nothing in the paladin code about not being a douchebag.
The whole "Good" thing generally stands in the way of being a douchebag that tramples the rights of others.

>> No.43643461

>>43643392
>why yes it's only logical that all paladins fall
>How could I tolerate any other worldview when I tip everyday?

>> No.43643473

>>43643416

People in real life don't know for certain their god exists and is not the only one. None of the gods in D&D settings capable of attracting paladins to their cause WANT you to kill nonbelievers. They want you to fight EVIL.

Additionally, it's a fallacy to assume that Paladins are neccessarily religious. Plenty of them gain powers from purity of heart and all that jazz. Just as a cleric can gain power from the ideal of good, so too can Paladins.

>> No.43643475

>>43643392
>>43643416

>> No.43643480

>>43643453
>The whole "Good" thing generally stands in the way of being a douchebag that tramples the rights of others.
Is this how criminals and murderers see themselves?
Restricted of restricting other peoples right of property and living and healthy peacefully life?

>> No.43643486

>>43643392
That makes it even better.

>> No.43643489

>>43641658
>Neutral
>everyone is neutral

>> No.43643510

>>43643403
this
that's How I always do Paladins
Selfess, very pro-active and demending the best of themselves, to inspire similar selfnessnes and betterment in others. In word of one of my characters mentor:
"You are the Light, the Lantern in the misty grey world. Let them see you shine bright"

>> No.43643519

>>43643473
As for D&D, only 4e and I believe 5e paladins gain power from gods.
Basic to 3.pf, they gain their powers from cosmic forces above the gods, but can choose to worship a deity.
>>43643480
Wut?

>> No.43643531

>>43640421
What's the deal with Paladin? She's a pervert.

She knows she's in a smut universe and has decided to enjoy it instead of getting annoyed about it like Fighter or being the moe moe innocent victim type like Mage.

>> No.43643550

>>43643475
Well I guess using critical thinking could be considered edgy to someone like you.

>>43643473
Evil breing nonbelievers

>> No.43643589

>>43643519

Actually, from what I can tell, 3.PF paladins are generally assumed to be religious, as several LG, NG, and LN gods have particular paladin codes, while the 5e paladin is often getting some powers from cosmic forces but mostly from ideals. Ancients paladins have power from the world itself, Devotion paladins are often dedicated to a diety or the ideals of chivalry, Vengeance paladins are kinda vague but very angry, and Crown oath paladins are almost literally able to turn patriotism and loyalty into a superpower.

>>43643550

Again, you're blatantly trying to interpret D&D pantheons, which observably exist and are not jealous gods, as being the same as monotheistic religions that exist in the real world and view outsiders as in the wrong. They aren't. You're a moron.

>> No.43643602

>>43643519
>Wut?
Here
>tramples the rights of others.
This implies that a Paladin does oppress people, despite all those people he smit were obviously evil.

>> No.43643628

>>43643453
>The whole "Good" thing generally stands in the way of being a douchebag that tramples the rights of others.
Due process isn't a concern in a world where LITERALLY EVERYONE is guilty.

>> No.43643644

>>43643589
>Actually, from what I can tell, 3.PF paladins are generally assumed to be religious, as several LG, NG, and LN gods have particular paladin codes
This applies to FR setting, where everyone is assumed to worship a god, or else.
>>43643602
Oh, so foolishness.
>>43643628
>LITERALLY EVERYONE
Really?

>> No.43643746

>>43643628

>Humanity has to deal with an invasion of new humans with strange and terrible powers and alien morals that dethrone their kings, slaughter their armies, and change their laws.
>The twist is the existing humanity has grown so corrupt and twisted that the cosmic forces have begun incarnating paladins in a world of evil to throw down their tyrants, cull the armies of looting rapist soldiers, and unmake the twisted laws that destroyed the goodness in the human spirit and made the victims as vile as their oppressors.

That might be an interesting campaign. The grim'n'gritty assholes could have an evil campaign about trying to protect their turf because they were here first and like how it is, the new humans are trying to fix a fundamentally broken-down world...

And then maybe there's a third party, the adventuring party, who realizes that while humanity has brought this on itself by becoming so corrupt, the cosmic forces don't understand the complexity of the matter, and are setting up a repetition of the cycle if they try to wash away the filth with blood. Good must be restored to the world, but not at swordpoint. Humanity must embrace its reincarnated goodness, and the new and old humans must come together and strive to be better, or the cycle of genesis, corruption, and a violent purge will continue forever.

>> No.43643814

>>43642243
Onna kishi the best kishi.

>> No.43643829

>>43642528
Don't cut yourself on that edge, son.

>> No.43643898

>>43643392
>he says in a setting where said "magic sky fairies" can actually pop down and punch you in the dick

>> No.43643899

>>43643829
See >>43643550

>> No.43643929

>>43643898
>haveyoutriednotplayingd&d.jpg

>> No.43643946

>>43640421
Paladin's typically demand some level of roleplay. If you aren't particularly experienced with playing a character, it's easy to fall into the trap of playing yourself, or just being a boring logical opportunist. (Not that the logical opportunist can't be a great character, it's just boring if the only reason it's done is due to lack of creativity.)

Playing paladin is like being given a good prompt before starting an improve sketch. You know what your goals are, you know how your character should act. And despite all that, there's still a good variety of the kinds of character's that can be a paladin, so it's not trite and old hat.

>> No.43643965

>>43643898
Exactly. You see if you read the bible you'd realize how much of a dick god is even to his followers, I try to bring that into my games

>> No.43643974

>>43643929
Indeed, try FATAL. That one is realistic at least.

>> No.43643989

>>43641170
>Not sure what other class gets such a position by default.

Well, if your character is an assassin or thief, they might. Depending the general alignment of the party. But most of the time we just conveniently call those people "rouges" to ignore the fact those people's skill set is typically only useful to criminals.

>> No.43644018

>>43643965

I'm not sure if this implies an utter lack of creativity in designing original religions so you just fell back on christianity, which you clearly hate, to vicariously live out your hateboner for religious people, or if you fall more into the "fetishizing people being unpleasant all the time" like that other anon said.

>> No.43644020

>>43641229
>Also I strongly dislike them on the basis that they're a niche already covered by clerics

The cleric's niche is faith. Way different from ethics if you have any amount of nuance in your game.

>> No.43644056

>>43641170
How about Clerics, Druids, Monks, Barbarians, or any class with an alignment restriction? They all technically have the same limitations of a Paladin, yet for some reason its the Paladin that causes autists to lose thier shit and either bitch about "moralfags" or act like retards and instead you thier restriction as an amnesty instead

>> No.43644058

>>43643899
I have yet to see any critical thinking.
>>43643929
The "Paladin" is a concept that originated in D&D, as it relates to pnp. If you are talking about something else, you are in the wrong thread entirely.
Now, dismissing the twat, talk about your paladins in play. What did you do that perhaps surprised even you?
>take on some giants
>knock one out in a single massive blow
>tie it up, drag it back to the town it was menacing, intent on pronouncing the death sentence upon it
>ask if it will repent for it's evil at the final hour
>expect it to spit in my face
>DM asks for diplomacy check
>outrageous score
>it... repents?
>whole game stopped
>not sure what to do
>sense motive??
>it's being honest, straight up
>lead it in a simple prayer asking for forgiveness
>The whole town is watching me
>companions are watching me
>....
>untie the giant, help it stand, heal its wounds
>lead it to a small barn, share a meal with him
>town is in an uproar, companions outraged
>respond with "Mercy is the greatest test of the good heart"
>after several months, reform the giant
>now he fights with us as friend and companion
>this is my Justice

>> No.43644125

>>43644020
>religion
>ethics
>>43644018
I merely dislike the immature and the foolish, you sir are obviously both
>>43644058
See this is the kinda unrealistic shit I'm talking about, if your gm is any good the giant will betray you.

>> No.43644147

>>43644058
>ask if it will repent for it's evil at the final hour
There actually lies the problem.
While I don't say the giant can't repent, such a change of heart can easily degenerate back considering it was a repent or die - ultimatum.

>> No.43644270

>>43644056
Paladin is the only one with strict rules that are spelled out and breaking them can cause the Paladin to fall: a Paladin will fall for any Evil act, a Good Cleric will, at least by RAW, only fall if the act is extreme enough to cause an instant alignment shift - and even then, most often only if the said act was extreme enough to instantly make him Evil. ARGUABLY most gods should hold their priests to equally strict standards as Paladins are held, but that's not spelled out in the rules.

Further, all your other examples are restricted to a SET of alignments rather than a single one. The Paladin is by FAR the most restrictive one

>> No.43644347

>>43644125
>See this is the kinda unrealistic shit I'm talking about, if your gm is any good the giant will betray you.
>>43644147
>While I don't say the giant can't repent, such a change of heart can easily degenerate back considering it was a repent or die - ultimatum.
Well, do realize the mechanics work directly against you.
I made a diplomacy check high enough to take it from hostile to friendly in a single stroke.
My sense motive was high enough to tell if it was speaking falsely, and at no point did I say that if it repented, it would be released. Even I had every intention of watching it's head roll.
I released it into my custody. He was still my prisoner, and I spent more than a few sessions teaching the giant ethics, as well as the rewards of a good life. I earned it's genuine trust in real time, and that trust went both ways. In time, that trust made me take him on trips abroad, working with me on projects like raising barns, simple things to help people out.
As for >>43644125, your example only rings true if people are absolutely 2d and more set pieces than living beings who can indeed change their ways. At least the game mechanics directly stand in the face of such juvenile, combative thinking.

>> No.43644370

>>43644270

Typically a paladin will not fall unless they freely and willingly violate their code. It's not "a bad guy tricked you, lose all your powers," or "you were rude to the obnoxious NPC, lose all your powers."

3rd edition paladins are much more tightly restricted than other paladins, though, that's true enough. I like the 5th edition a little better in this regard, where you can play a VARIETY of alignments while still being a paladin. You just have to honor your code.

>>43644147

Typically it is better at sticking if someone takes the last second chance offered BEFORE combat, but people can legitimately change their ways when an enemy who has demonstrated they are their better offers them mercy. Particularly if your giants have any kind of racial honor, which isn't that uncommon. You do have a point that there needs to be care shown that the giant does legitimately embrace the values offered to him rather than doing what he has to to survive, though.

I like taking a "don't kill them if you don't have to" and "fight fairly when the fight is fair" approach with paladins. It can be more flexible than you think, particularly once they made it easier to nonlethally subdue enemies in combat.

>> No.43644416

>bait OP pic
>bait topic (why are paladins so shit/so awesome is a staple...)
>a troll and/or autist responding to every post that doesn't line up with their ideology and worldview with religious fervor
Way to go, OP.

>> No.43646146

>>43640421
There is like zero porn of that character.

What is this shit?

>> No.43646256

>>43646146
The purer something is, the more joy there is in corrupting it. The lewder something is, the less motivated people will be to corrupt it.

By being the lewdest, Paladin is simultaneously the purest.

>> No.43646310

>>43646146
You're not looking hard enough.

>> No.43646695

>>43640784
>People may hate paladins because when played, they may not live up to the golden standard.

This is... oddly profound. Part of the reason people dislike paladins is because whether in-game or through personal experience they saw a paladin (or someone they looked at in a similar manner) fail. They lost faith.

To them I say, be not afraid. Though a paladin may fail, we are but mortal in the end. What matters is that we try. Every day, even in the smallest of ways, we must try and bring goodness into the world. There are those who would say that to merely try is not enough but all success begins from trying.

We may falter, we might lose our way, but we will never stop trying. Eventually, we might even succeed.

>> No.43646737

>>43646695
>we might lose our way
SAY THAT TO MY FACE AND NOT ONLINE SEE WHAT HAPPENS

>> No.43646926

>>43646737

>> No.43647911

>Tfw you want to play a Paladin
>tfw your group never finishes a campaign
>Tfw you're forever GM'd

I just want to play a young Paladin looking for his mentor/parental figure, who he was separated from during a battle.

I keep coming up with unique backstories only for them to go nowhere.

Then those fuckers always go: "Gee Anon, another Paladin? XD"

>> No.43648392

>>43642431
Blade play.

It's about a guy who was told he was the chosen one in the middle of fapping, so when the message asked him what he desired as a hero, he put down "sex".

This resulted in him getting a holy dick that smites evil and purifies demon girls that he fucks.

The series is actually pretty good when the author remembers he had a plotline going on, but there's annoying periods of time where nothing of importance happens while the protagonists (and villains) goof off for several chapters at a time.

>> No.43648521

>>43640421
I played a Paladin once. He was fresh, interesting, and /fun/. He was not a being that did good out of law or loyalty, but due to his innocence. He was vegan. He refused to strike first. Yet he still would have been on board with sneaking in to Sir Evil Atrociousguy's hideout to discover the truth rather than fight his way in. His goal wasn't a greater good, but rather the good he could make in the world, which meant working with his allies (and later friends) by protecting them (because tank). He would talk first and bash last because violence is only an answer when all other options fail.

I love and miss him dearly.

>> No.43648671

>>43648392
Panda didn't have anything, is that actually the title?

>> No.43648689

>>43648671
http://mangafox.me/manga/blade_play/v01/c001/1.html

Google.

>> No.43648714

>>43648689
>mangafox

>> No.43648718

>>43648671
it's too vanilla for panda

>> No.43648727

>>43643267
Said only people playing games where the party spends three hours discussing shit because everybody is too beta to make any decisions.

>> No.43648775

>>43642066
Why do I have to throw the baby? I throw myself in front of the cart.

>> No.43648787

>>43647911
It takes a good group to work well with a paladin.

I've dmed for 10 distinct groups since high school, and I've found that the shittier the group the more trouble they have with paladins. I mean occasionally a good RP group will choose a theme that isn't paladin compatible, but 9 times out of 10, when a group playing a party of reasonably standard composition, but are paladin hostile, it's because they have at least one shitty role player that is likely an edge lord.

My favorite characters have all been paladins, desu, a well played paladin as the moral and charismatic center of a well role played party is fantastic fun.

>> No.43648803

I tend to try to sneak in /pol/adins, but apparently LG and fascism aren't compatible.

>> No.43648806

>>43643946
It would be neat if all classes were like that.

>> No.43648815

>>43648689
http://bato.to/comic/_/comics/blade%e2%99%a5play-r6758

>> No.43648819

>>43643531
>Pure paladin
>Gotta be faithful and save herself for marriage and all that
>Nothing says she can't be lewd nor flaunt what she's got though

>>43646146
She's completely pure

>> No.43648845

>>43640421
People nowadays find people with strong beliefs that are willing to enforce those beliefs by force as distasteful.

>> No.43648852

>>43648775
The baby is strapped to a device on wheels which is the only thing capable of traveling quickly enough to intercept the cart.

>> No.43648865

>>43648803
They are when you make fascism the law.

>> No.43648869

>>43648815
What's the issue with mangafox? I'm not a huge manga reader, so I'm not hugely well informed.

>> No.43648877

>>43648852
Jump onto the device and ride it,use my body to shield the child, jump off and sprint the rest of the way if it's not fast enough with me on it.

>> No.43648903

>>43644370
But freely and willingly violate their code is "traveling with an evil PC" -- likewise at-will detect evil means they can't really even claim ignorance for the sake of the party getting along.

>> No.43648927

>>43648903

Well, for starters, the DM who allows one player to have an evil PC an another to have a Paladin when the adventure starts is a fucking moron.

>> No.43648955

>>43648927
But this is literally the only class where this is a problem. There are few other classes that instantly and completely warp party compositions around them like a paladin does.

>> No.43648964

The problem is that people play them as absolutes. Base them off real life paladins I say.

>HERETICS! PAGANS! REPENT YOUR SINS OR DIE!

>S-s-ir I refuse to renounce the Eastern Church, b-b-ut I have my family's silverware.

>Heretics? What heretics? I don't see any heretics. I also thank you for your donation to m- ur I mean the Church.

>> No.43648969

>>43646737
go away you are garbage now

>> No.43648985

>>43640421
>Paladin's are considered one of the most waifable classes while others cringe at the idea of a a paladin romance being brought up in a game.

Both groups are idiots and assclowns.
A paladin is not an appearance, nor is it a set of personality traits.

>> No.43649011

>>43648955

You ever tried having a monk and a barbarian on the same team?

>> No.43649023

>>43648877
You, in all your Paladinny armor, will slow down the vehicle beyond the point of usefulness for either scenario or be unable to ride it/find a handhold.

>> No.43649034

>>43648955
But they don't have to. If they do, the player is the one making it so.

>> No.43649059

>>43649023
Cut the baby loose, without hurting it.
The straps can't possibly be that tough.

>> No.43649076

>>43640634
You assume some stuff with that statement. One, that low con= "waifable", two, that there is a wrong way to play a paladin. Both of these are silly things to assume. Please go find a corner and think about what you did.

>> No.43649104

>>43649011

Sounds like the set up to a fantasy version of a buddy cop story.

>> No.43649149

>>43648819
>Nothing says she can't be lewd nor flaunt what she's got though
She's also literally a paladin because it's her fetish. She actually, sexually, gets off on making sacrifices for the good of others.

>> No.43649156

>>43649059
Solid iron bands hold the child/baby in a St. Andrew's Cross fashion. They're enchanted to have a ridiculously high resistance to magical and physical attempts to break them and the enchantments.

>> No.43649195

>>43648869
It doesn't benefit anyone who puts work into providing manga, delivering no revenue to the original creators or the scanlation groups that work on it, while still running ads and putting up pages from licensed publications.

And while that isn't actually an uncommon story, it also provides a mediocre service. The servers are slow compared to some other popular sites, the pages are watermarked and it doesn't offer full chapter loading or downloading like competitors do.

>> No.43649238

>>43649156
...I cast Banishment on the baby and wait until the child reappears where the cart was originally or where the cart ends up.

>> No.43649310 [DELETED] 

>>43649076
... not him, but he was making a joke about the guy misspelling "waifUable". You know what a "waif" is?

>> No.43649411

>>43649238
By the time you figure all this out and get the cart moving, you have missed your window of opportunity. Better luck next time!

>> No.43649457

>>43649149
>She actually, sexually, gets off on making sacrifices for the good of others.

This isn't actually that weird of a thing, it's a sort of Pavlovian mechanism where your mouth isn't the thing drooling when you did the good deed.

>> No.43649475

>>43649411

>> No.43649579

>>43649475
<3

>> No.43649619

>>43649011
>>43649104
As a person who had a monk and a barbarian in the same party until recently, I can confirm that it is, indeed, a fantasy version of a buddy cop story.

>> No.43649645

>>43649619

>"You're a loose cannon, barbarian, but you're a damn good cop!"

>> No.43649648

>>43649411
I grab the party rogue and ranger by the scruff of their necks (where those layabouts were when all this was happening is a question for another day) and set them to investigating the wreckage and the surrounding terrain. I want to know who else has been here, where they went, and where they procured all of the surely devastatingly expensive parts for this insane Rube Goldberg contraption.

Somebody in this world had the sheer brass balls to play dominoes with sapient lives purely to jerk me around. That person is going to get their ass kicked.

>> No.43649824

>>43649648
You find evidence that Baron von Badguy was actually in dealings with multiple factions in order to procure all of the resources necessary, and that he was instructed by one person to do so. You find furthermore from what survives of his correspondence that his campaign of evil was sponsored by an anonymous benefactor with the resources to help him achieve his dark aims and goals, all with the sole purpose to draw you (by profession, rather than name) to this very spot and to be drawn into that very engine by which you were forced to make such a horrible decision.

>> No.43649967

>>43646310
There's maybbe a single image out there.

Where's our Doushinji?

>> No.43650449

>>43649824

What, it wasn't done entirely by one guy who cannot be found manipulating local widows and orphans who had no idea what they were constructing? Tsk, tsk.

>> No.43650549

>>43650449
I had something in mind, but our stoic Paladin never continued his efforts.

>> No.43650629

>>43648955
There are a ton of classes that cannot cooperate with each other unless you ignore fluff restrictions.

The Paladin just puts the restriction in the crunch so munchkins can't ignore them.

>> No.43650734

>>43640784
A guy in the campaign I'm currently in plays his paladin as a grizzled veteran whose (almost) entire regiment has died, and he's tired and fed up with the world, but he still persists and perseveres, wishing to drive us forward, to fight on, because he feels he has to, because it's the only thing he's even believed in.

>> No.43650756

>>43643403
>That's the player, not the class.
The problem is, such a shining, leaderly class draws players who tend to play that way to it.

Sure, there are people who know how to play it properly, but the class will always seem appealing to those who would misuse it.

>> No.43650777

>>43643602
>tramples the rights of others.
You clearly misread their comment. They said that a Paladin's code GETS IN THE WAY OF and PREVENTS them from being a douchebag who tramples on the rights of others, Re-read the sentence you're quoting.

>> No.43650845

WOW I came into this thread expecting slutty paladins and instead got whining and people saying edgelord and euphoric. Can we still post girls or is it over?

>> No.43650866

>>43650845
We moved past that as well, in case you hadn't noticed. But this thread is borderline dead anyway. Might as well make it a Charismadin thread.

>> No.43650876

>>43650866
Just what do those look like hmmm?

>> No.43650887

>>43640421
I typically hate anime. But, I am intrigued by how meta this show sounds. Is it meta enough that I would like it? I love OPM if that is any indication.

>> No.43650902

>>43650876
I think we each have a different ideal.

Mine have ample curves underscored by muscles from a life of physical labor. And I do mean "ample". What about you, friend?

>> No.43650923

>>43650902
I like all kinds, but I enjoy the idea of a dainty Paladin girl with a large bust who calls upon her gods power to smite more than her physical strength. Maybe a little naive, but she stands up for what's right and loves her friends.

>> No.43650987

>>43650923

That was more or less the paladin in our campaign, yeah.

She ended up hooking up with the party cleric and they went back to her family bakery together after the party killed a demon lord.

>> No.43651000

>>43650987
That's adorable.

I guess I'm just posting blonde girls in armor at this point.

>> No.43651012

Personally I always hated girly girl paladins.

They should be all business, more professional than any of the men.

>> No.43651017

>>43651012
They have a lot to prove, after all.

>> No.43651029

>>43643589
>Crown oath paladins are almost literally able to turn patriotism and loyalty into a superpower.

Americana paladin when ?

>> No.43651034

>>43650902
I am going to second curcymuscle paladins as best, but >>43650923 is fine too, exspecially if she starts as one and earns them muscles and curves

>> No.43651045

>>43651029
Now

>> No.43651047

>>43651012
I like the idea that all kinds of people can fight for good if they want to. A girly Paladin might not be the best or most capable, but that's the fun of roleplaying. I like the idea of the more devout or good the person is, the stronger they can be too.

>> No.43651067

>>43651047
I accept paladins of all sorts so long as there is good in their hearts.

But you see, powerful women are my fetish.

>> No.43651099

>>43651067
Yeah, and for me it just comes down to not liking muscle girls, so that's my fault. I like physical fighter women more than magic or ranged ones though, so I really don't make them super muscly unless it's a Barbarian girl or something.

>> No.43651138

Okay, so if I post pallytits will someone answer my question here >>43650887?

>> No.43651163

>>43651138
It parodies NES era JRPGs really well. Dragon Quest particularly. It's not really the same kind of meta OPM is though, the focus is on exploring conventions of what it's parodying, not examining them.

>> No.43651178

>>43648845
>People nowadays find people with strong beliefs as distasteful.

>> No.43651182

>>43650887
>>43651138
The entire show can be described as "boobs and meta JRPG jokes". Yes, you'll probably like Bikini Warriors.

>> No.43651195

I'd like to play a godless, silent, paladin.

He believes that words are deceitful, and that actions speak much louder. He believes that someone needs no order, nor god to be a good person. He hardly speaks up, because he doesn't want to discourage others.

If someones hits an innocent, he'll grab their hand. If he needs to kill, he does so with no banter. If someone asks him for help, he accepts. If someone must be in pain, he'll take that role.

Simply, because he wants/believes in making the world a better place.

So basically, I'll play a chivalrous fighter with paladin ideals.

>> No.43651197

>>43651163
Hm. Maybe I'll take a look at it. I just find meta parodies satisfying because I suffered a really bad backlash against anime and fell out of love with it really hard, so the stuff that makes fun of itself is mostly what I can enjoy anymore. Needless to say, I am a fan of several "abridged" productions.

>> No.43651225

>>43651197
>because I suffered a really bad backlash against anime and fell out of love with it really hard
All of anime? I hate to sound condescending, but I doubt that considering how varied the medium is. Are you sure you didn't fall in love with a certain subgenre like shonen?

>> No.43651231

>>43642066
>>43648775
>>43648877
>>43649059
>>43649238
>>43649411

>> No.43651248

>>43651225
>telling me what I like/how I feel about things
I dunno Freud, enlighten me with your armchair expertise.

>> No.43651253

>>43651231
Oviously you fire the cannon on Theseus' ship at the trolley. This is not only the only solution to the problem that doesn't kill anyone, but it also bypasses the "Theseus' ship" problem. The ship can be taken apart plank by plank, but the cannon cannot. So if one asks you whether the cannon belonged to the original Theseus' ship or the one that was torn apart and rebuilt, the answer is "both".

>By trying to complicate the trolley problem, they actually made it easier

>> No.43651280

>>43651253
>wat de fak am i leading.jpg

>> No.43651296

>>43651197
You might want to check out "One punch man" as well. It's a sendup of superhero comics.
The main character is sort of a min-max build: he has absurd attack power and damage resistance, but is lazy, not very smart or charismatic, bald, and has a bad reputation.
His sidekick is an edgelord not!Sauske.

Together, they fight crime.

Don't look at me like that, its really good!

>> No.43651302

>>43651253
Both the ships have cannons, you only have enough time to fire one.

>> No.43651303

>>43651296
I do like OPM a great deal, actually. I mentioned it in my original post.

>> No.43651310 [SPOILER] 

>>43651296
>His sidekick is an edgelord not!Sauske.
His sidekick is best girl. His """""rival""""" is not!Sasuke

>> No.43651315

>>43651302
Then if one is being deconstructed, it must be Theseus' ship. But, if the other is being built, since it is being reconstructed, that implies that too is Theseus' ship. So there is no wrong answer.

>> No.43651319

I always had trouble thinking of concepts for paladins besides shining knights with a stick up their ass shouting "JUSTICE!"

I had an epiphany recently, though, and I can't wait for a chance to play a paladin now. I'll play him like a by-the-books cop who takes no shit from evil. No matter how heinous the enemy or what they've done, he'll offer them a chance to come quietly, and execute even-handed justice if they refuse. Bandit or greater demon, no admonishing them, no engaging in typical good vs evil dialogue, just take care of them like all the other scum.

Of course that's a bit boring, so I'll get into cop movie cliches when he's not in a fight.

>> No.43651325

>>43651296
Genos is not edgy, he is the perfect disciple.

>> No.43651329

>>43651302
>>43651315
You take a cannon from the new ship. Because the cannon is not deconstructed, it is still the cannon of the original ship (the original ship just isn't there anymore). It is also the cannon of the new ship, because now it's on the new ship.

It's a win/win situation.

>> No.43651337

>>43651319
He is a by-the-books paladin.
He is a renegade rogue who doesn't play by the rules.

Together, they fight crime.

>> No.43651339

>>43651248
Not the same guy, but I'll enlighten you with mine. You misinterpreted his post, probably not deliberately. He asked for clarification on a reasonable inference, yet you took it as him telling you how you felt. Or rather how you should feel.

I'm going to say you're insecure about your choices. That you do things not because you genuinely believe in them but rather because you want to be accepted, yet you realize on some level that this is artificial, which brings your larger identity into question.

That's my armchair analysis on limited information.

>> No.43651355

>>43651319
>Playing paladins as cops.

Love this cliche, do it all the time, adapted for medieval times.

>Fifteen bandits surrounding me, plate armor gleaming in the torchlight of the cape, my large red cape trailing down my back, greatsword held on top of it by vidya logic or some kind of pins or something.
>"Gentlemen, I am Sir Gerald of Loreshire. You are all under arrest for banditry, murder, rape, conspiracy to the crown, and missing Mass. I offer you the chance to come quietly."
>They attack me.
>"And assaulting a servant of his highness King Cyrus and his excellency Archpriest Dionisios the Wise" *draws greatsword*

>> No.43651364

>>43651319
I find people overthink paladin characters. Utimately the hard part is only the ethical part, which can be a complete crapshoot depending on who your DM, where your setting is, and hell, what your ridiculous ideas on good and evil might be.

As loadout goes, you can pretty much go with anything as long as you can smite evil with it. As personality goes, really anything is fine if the values check out.

A Paladin can be sarcastic, lazy and a mean drinker/gambler. He can have a hair-trigger temper and hate races other than his own. He can be too gentle to hurt anyone with as much as a mean word so long as there's a remaining chance at peace. All that matters is that he does right, whatever right is, and that he does his best at it.

>> No.43651376

>>43651339
This is pretty far from the truth. I actually speak my mind even if people don't like what I have to say because I don't care what people think of me in most regards. Regarding being insecure about my choices... nobody is confident in everything they choose to do. Merely deciding on a course of action is more bravery than most cowards these days can manage, truth be told. I moved 2000 miles away from everything I had for something uncertain. So no, I think you missed pretty hard there.

The fact of the matter is I was a massive otaku; statues, manga collection, dvd collection, only fapped to hentai/2D, then one day, that all changed. I just left it all behind. I enjoy scant few things I did, and scant few new things as described. So sorry chum, keep working on that armchair thesis. Your Lay-Z-Boy PhD will get you far someday, I'm sure.

>> No.43651388

>>43651315
>>43651329
That is the point of the "Theseus' ship" paradox, you morons.

Its the question of "If you replace some, most, or even all the constituent parts of a thing, is it still that thing? At what point does it stop being the original object?

A simpler version:
>You have a broom.
>One day, you notice the bristles are worn out, so you replace them
>Later, you notice the handle is cracked, you replace it as well.
>When did it stop being the original broom?

>> No.43651390

>>43649076
I think his pun exceeded your grasp.
Waifable is similar to waifish which means thin and frail, that would imply low con.

>> No.43651412

>>43651388
Well since you're not the original you to begin with, how can your statement have meaning?

>> No.43651418

>>43651390
I'm completely lost on which of the people in this conversation interpreted waifable as waifish and which interpreted it as "waifu-able".

>> No.43651419

>>43651390
>>43649076
>>43640634
What word should OP have used? "Waifuable"?

>> No.43651424

>>43651388
Except here, the question avoids the entire point. You can never truly know what Theseus' ship is, but the "canon of Theseus' ship" (ie. the only part you need) remains unchanged, because the cannons themselves cannot be further deconstructed and reconstructed (unless they're reforged, but that process takes so long the cannons become useless).

As such, the "cannon of Theseus' ship" remains completely unchanged. The only question is which ship it belongs to and you could make an argument for both.

The problem is that the fact that the cannons cannot be further deconstructed make the "Theseus' ship" problem completely moot. We can debate all day about which ship is Theseus' ship, but for the sake of using a cannon it's completely insignificant. For example, even if the entire ship shipwrecked and only one cannon survived, it'd still be the cannon of Theseus' ship, Theseus' ship would just be no more. The cannon remains in this world completely unchanged.

>> No.43651449

It is not that I hate the idea of paladin. I hate all the shitlord players that derail my campaign because "HURRR DURRR MY PALADIN CODE SOMETING SOMETING!", and after next two hours of game we either have TPK or total campaign disintegration.

Of course Paladins are not the only class that allows this but somehow it is the most popular among such dicksummoners. And in my opinion easiest to use to fuck everyone's day up.

>> No.43651452

>>43643403
That is how I imagine paladins, when not imagining the kind that shoots 155mm rounds

>> No.43651464

>>43651424
>>43651388
Or we could admit that all these are simply terms, linguistic constructs whose definitions are set artificially and have no essential nature.

>> No.43651520

>>43651424
>>43651412
>>43651464
>Oh god, the stupid, it burns.
YES!
You are correct! Just as Theseus' ship is having its boards replaced, so too are your body cells dying and being replaced, new memories being formed in your brain as old ones fade.
The parable of Theseus' ship is a paradox with no clear answer that makes us think about the nature of reality. Its PHILOSOPHY.

>> No.43651535

>>43651452
I never liked the common use of Brad as a paladin. I always thought he leaned chaotic, and he's neutral at his absolute best on that axis. Everything he does seems personally motivated.

I might go so far as to say that he's a well-done take on chaotic evil.

>> No.43651555

>>43651535
depends on what choices YOU make in the game

>> No.43651581

>>43651520
Philosophy is like a game that can't stop being played because there is no end to it, since ultimately the entire thing is circular logic.

>> No.43651594

>>43651520
Obviously the set of all sets does contain itself in an infinitely recursive fashion. Otherwise it would be "the set of all sets, except itself"

It's not like you could write down "the set of all sets, except itself" anyway, cause it is too impossibly big either way, so the infinite nature of this recursion is fundamentally meaningless.

Russel's Paradox is about sets of all sets that are not members of themselves, which prevents that recursion.

You also refuse the mission, which means you have accomplished it. This makes your a liar, in that you said you were not going to do something and then you did it, but does not create a paradox.

Course, I am just fucking tired and probably need sleep so I am probably talking bullshit.

>> No.43651599

>>43651424
The addition of the cannon in that image may be whats confusing you, here's the original version, because you all are too lazy to check wikipedia:

>The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.
>—Plutarch, Theseus

Plutarch thus questions whether the ship would remain the same if it were entirely replaced, piece by piece. Centuries later, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes introduced a further puzzle, wondering what would happen if the original planks were gathered up after they were replaced, and used to build a second ship. Hobbes asked which ship, if either, would be considered the original Ship of Theseus.

>> No.43651601

>>43651555
At his core, regardless of your decisions, Brad is always a man inclined to act on his impulses and do what protects his own world no matter what logic or ethics might dictate and who he hurts.

I don't think you can ever justify him as lawful or good. His "try" is the same kind of try that villains in other works use to justify their rampages.

>> No.43651607

>>43651601
Even the sacrifices that you can make that automatically end the game?

>> No.43651628

>>43651607
Alright fair. There's that. But I still don't consider them very indicative of his character.

>> No.43651633

>>43651599
Fuck you, Hobbes. That's too much thinking for me.

>> No.43651637

The best Paladins are the ones which aren't starting classes so you have to earn the power of one, and hopefully learn how to play one correctly during your journey.

>> No.43651641

>>43651628
You mean, YOUR character, since YOU make those decisions.
You can choose to end the game when ever Brad dies.
That is what makes LISA so great.

>> No.43651643

This thread is a perfect example of why I love this place for all its faults.

>> No.43651650

>>43642732
source?

>> No.43651677

>>43651520
The nature of reality is quite more subtle than the blunt instrument of language. Better use mathematics for that descriptive purpose.

>this kills philosophy

>> No.43651680

>>43640421

It's mostly because /tg/ largely consists of cynical misanthropes.

I do have a complaint in that I can't play the kind of Paladin I want. Basically, I want to play a Paladin who gleefully slays heretics, who rejoices in the death of evil races, and has the complete blissful surety that comes from an intimate relationship with the Almighty.

But I can't do that. I have to behave like a Paragon Bioware protagonist. I want to be a bloody-handed knight who smites the unholy and the unrighteous, and smites them unto the seventh generation. Basically, I really, really want to play a zealous avenger, a merciless reaver who sheds no tears for the enemy of God and who believes total war on the subhumans is justified.

More, this kind of Paladin wouldn't have any trouble fitting in with an adventuring party. Poison? Better than the godless filth deserve. Torture? Just for existing, they should be chastised. Looting and plunder? Their worldly goods should be put to better us. The death of children? Better the little snakes die before they grow up to become vipers.

Paladins have more constraints than Clerics, and they're arguably a less powerful class. That, I think, is deeply unfair. Why would Heironeous be upset that I butcher followers of Hextor without mercy? What, is the GOD OF WAR a pussy?

>> No.43651694

>>43651680
so, a /pol/adin?

>> No.43651703

>>43651694

Honestly, I was thinking of a Crusader knight. They did plenty of looting and even raping, but everything was still okay in the eyes of God.

>> No.43651722

>>43651555
Circular logic is a set of assumptions that are only confirmed by themselves.
>Pvt. Joe Bowers: What are these electrolytes? Do you even know?
>Secretary of State: They're... what they use to make Brawndo!
>Pvt. Joe Bowers: But why do they use them to make Brawndo?
>Secretary of Defense: [raises hand after a pause] Because Brawndo's got electrolytes.

Philosopy involves people pushing the limits of our understanding of the world. Asking questions like "which one is Theseus' ship?" isn't just words meant to confuse you, it's pointing out flaws in our "simple" understanding of the world, like finding glitches in the matrix. By doing so, philosophers try to push past those limits to our understanding.
But it wont affect the price of gas or make your breakfast taste any better, so you should probably just stop thinking about it and go back to work like a good little drone.

>> No.43651730

>>43651703
>They did plenty of looting and even raping, but everything was still okay in their personal interpretation of their God.
ftfy; but this is just one way to play a paladin.
it ultimately comes down to DM, player, and group cohesion

>> No.43651731

>>43651703
You just need the right god, and a GM that'll feature said god of "good" that allows its followers to treat non-faithful like inhuman trash in his or her setting.

Godspeed, sociopathanon.

>> No.43651733

>>43651677
I refer you to the ending of the image that started all this. >>43651231

>> No.43651737

>>43640421
I hate paladins because from time to time they try to bomb people and places here. You can guess which country I am from quiet easily.

>> No.43651742

>>43651680

>> No.43651743

>>43651722
I can't wait to see you philosophize about mislinking your post.

>good little drone
It amuses me when people who like to think such a great deal about nothing view themselves as a great deal of something.

Philosophy is like a game that can't stop being played because there is no end to it, since ultimately the entire thing is circular logic.

>> No.43651771

>>43651743
not that guy, but I agree with you.
that is why the scientific method is used today, and not the old style of greek debate. Greek debate was good for it's time, but our knowledge of the natural world has advanced tremendously in the past 500 years, particularly the last 150 years.

>> No.43651792

>>43651771
Philosophy still has its use, however. It's a thinking game, and it sharpens the wit. It can help you think outside yourself, and it can help give you practice looking at things from a perspective aside from the tired old angles you're used to. It won't unravel the secrets of the universe, but it will give you the presence of mind to do it with SCIENCE.

>> No.43651824

>>43651722
god, philosophers are really the most useless liberal art majors.

>> No.43651826

>>43651792
>Philosophy still has its use, however. It's a thinking game, and it sharpens the wit.
absolutely.
unfortunately, I see more and more people slip into the quagmire that is Solipsistic philosophy. And it is usually people that refuse to change their world view even when presented with evidence to the contrary.
I think that is why I, personally, prefer the scientific method of thinking to that of philosophical thinking. But a basic understanding of philosophy is great for testing the limits of your own way of thinking.

>> No.43651837

>>43651826
I hate philosophers because they pat themselves on the back arguing about whether a boat is another boat, meanwhile the sailors don't care and just get on the boat, and the lawyers clearly demarcate which boat is who's.

>> No.43651849

>>43651792
>philosophy is only good for practice

You're saying here that any question that isn't answerable by science isn't worth asking. I disagree.

>> No.43651852

>>43651837
>Doesn't understand the importance of abstract thinking.

Dropped.

>> No.43651866

>>43651852
>doesn't understand the importance of using abstract thinking when it is useful, and not just jacking off about boats all day

If a philosopher wanted to use abstract thinking to help people, he wouldn't be a philosopher.

>> No.43651869

>>43651837
>>43651743
As luck would have it, there is a philosophy perfect for people like you.

>> No.43651872

>>43651869
anon, that has little to nothing to do with the posts you linked.

>> No.43651879

>>43651869
Insane as she was, she looks like she could suck dick pretty damn well.

>> No.43651884

>>43651637
Agh I never really thought about this but you might be right

>> No.43651887

>>43651872
I think it's because us people in Ameristan, are up late and are probably inebriated to some degree.
Or I could just be projecting.
But I am drunk, and not that guy you linked.

>> No.43651893

>>43651849
That isn't actually what I am saying, but since you're so defensive about it, that's what you assumed.

>>43651869
>I know! I'll accuse them of being Objectivists!
Oh god, how droll.

>> No.43651911

>>43651731

I certainly don't mean all the non-faithful, but I think 'ugly' non-humans should apply. Like, a guy who doesn't flinch after butchering an entire tribe of orcs, but insists that human prisoners are treated with courtesy. You know, as in a:

> "Of course I'm treating them well. They're living creatures!"

with the caveat that he doesn't consider the monstrous races to be sentient or even properly alive.

>> No.43651936

>>43651911
that just described a shit ton of fantasy animu

>> No.43651946

>>43651872
Rand hated do-nothing philosophers. She thought that anyone who failed to completely accept objective "A is A" reality without any possibility of interpretation was a delusional idiot. So she seemed relevant.

>> No.43651952

>>43651911
Well, at least your character's attitudes will be grounded in some semblance of reality, even if that part of reality is a foul, malodorous thing.

>> No.43651956

>>43651936

Yeah, but it's usually villains who do that. I want to be a PC who does that. You know, basically the argument FOR racism. For instance, I would defend a man (who's selling fake cures during a plague) from a lynch mob, then shame the mob for trying to take the law into their own hands.

Then I'll chop off his hands, because the crime for selling fake cures is amputation. So a strong moral code, but not an inconsistent one.

>> No.43651957

>>43651946
>these two things share a single characteristic.
>the characteristic isn't even the primary characteristic of the thing I will post as an example of that characteristic

you need to work on picture contextuality, anon.

>> No.43651972

>>43651956
so a SJW?

>> No.43651975

>>43651946
See that's the problem; Rand doesn't apply because no philosopher "does nothing" in the views I have put forth. I simply condemned a philosopher for thinking so highly of himself when the very truth is there is nothing to aggrandize himself over in the musings of nonsense. Now, understand that those very musings are useful, but their pursuit does not sit one above those who choose not to bandy about with them all day long.

>> No.43651986

>>43651972

I don't see the correlation, really. My point is that - in that case - the law would call for the amputation of the man's hands, not his death. If it called for his death, I would have been the first one to saw his head off.

Due process, man. That's why we burn witches and tribal shamans, but we treat academy-trained Wizards with civility.

>> No.43651992

>>43651975
I think I would hate them less if they got over arguing about the literal same prompts since the greek times. I get that there's some resurgence in interest in theseus shit because of the prospect of robuts, but all that means is you have to come up with a practical application, not just revisit the problem over and over.

It's the same type of hate as the hate for those guys who discovered quantum physics and insisted anyone from then on who wasn't having a mental breakdown from quantum physics didn't understand it properly. Then all the kids who grew up with quantum physics studied it and didn't have mental breakdowns because it's not actually that shocking. Same type, but for probably different reasons.

>> No.43651997

>>43651680
That's called playing a fighter who runs around as a knight. A paladin is specific archetype of characters consisting of LG warriors blessed by their gods to do good and what you want is something that isn't that archetype.

Instead what you want is the bloody knight, the monster that kills other monsters. This is an archetype of the fighter. In fact there is a prestige class in PF for exactly what you want called the Hell Knight. They are bloody warriors of the god of tyranny Asmodeus and they go around smiting the unfaithful, the "evil", and bringing bloody law to those they consider savages.

>> No.43651999

>>43651986
>That's why we burn witches and tribal shamans, but we treat academy-trained Wizards with civility.
hahaha that sounds like something right outta Terry Pratchett

>> No.43652006

>>43651997

Yeah, I'll probably just play a Lawful Neutral Fighter (As a Knight), then. I've always found the Hellknights a bit trying too hard, but there are certain Cavalier orders that work. (I dislike mounts, however, so I usually don't play Cavaliers.)

>> No.43652007

Because people are shit and don't like to be reminded of that fact.

>> No.43652009

>> No.43652032

>>43652007
I mean, a whole lot of people here actively revel in how hateful and intolerant they are. Do you expect such people to like someone who stands for Good?

>> No.43652034

>>43652032

Hatred and intolerance of evil are Goodly virtues.

>> No.43652040

>>43652034
the first not really, the second sure.

>> No.43652041

>>43652034
And Anons only hate evil things :^)

>> No.43652080

>>43652040

No, think about it this way. You can't just "Oh, Evil's troublesome." You have to hate it, and things that are Evil. Otherwise, you just give it a chance to take root. You need to bust down Evil's door and kick it's face in, or the problem will be an eternal one.

To my mind, a Paladin is the kind of guy who, after the Demon Lord is destroyed, immediately sets off to hunt down the minions. He won't let any of them get away. The act of destroying evil is its own reward.

It's like a guy who really fucking hates vampires. He'll kill them even if it wasn't the right thing to do, because he personally loathes them.

>> No.43652093

>>43652080
>you have to hate it
Nope. By definition, you just have to not tolerate it.

If you are hating it, you're gonna do some evil shit for kicks because that's how hate works.
If you are not tolerating it, you will do what is needed.

>> No.43652095

>>43652080

>You can't just "Oh, Evil's troublesome."

You kinda can. You can feel empathy and sympathy for people who've fallen onto a dark path while fighting them.

I mean, that was kinda the point about her beloved needing to kill her in Dracula. Because love was setting her free, not hatred of vampires.

>> No.43652120

>>43652095

That's not really consistent, though. Van Helsing later hammers stakes through the hearts of the brides without any real tie to them. Johnathan himself stabs Dracula in the heart, and he fucking hated Dracula.

I personally think they got Arthur to do it to exorcise his demons. You know, for closure. Less charitably, it could be argued that they made him do it so that he'd be 'one of them'. Like, if he had second thoughts about mutilating a corpse later, he couldn't turn them in. Remember, Arthur was an English lord. On his word, they could all have been locked up in an asylum.

>> No.43652139

>>43640784
I like the darker characters, but those kinds of characters are more fun when there's a paladin type around.

>> No.43652315

>>43651520
>>43651599
Consider the following before calling others lazy or stupid. Yes, I am familliar with this paradox, the problem here is that when we only need the canon, the ship does not matter at all. We don't need to know whether or not the rebuilt ship is still the Theseus ship, because the object "Theseus' ship" is of zero importance to us in the overall problem. What is of importance to us is "the canon of Theseus' ship" which, unlike the object "Theseus' ship" cannot be broken down into smaller fragments and then rebuilt.

In other words, the "Theseus' ship paradox" can be applied to the literal "Theseus' ship" as is introduced in the overall story, but the "Theseus' ship paradox" cannot be applied to "the canon of Theseus' ship", nor to "the plank of Theseus' ship" (unless you saw it into pieces and then glue it together or something).

So unless there's a forge present, just pick any given canon and fire it, they're all "the canon of Theseus' ship".

What confuses you is that you look at the ship when said ship is of no importance: we don't need to apply the Theseus' ship paradox to Theseus' literal ship in this case.

>> No.43652347

>>43652080
Hate the sin, not the sinner, lad.

>> No.43652352

>>43651599
>>43651388
But why does anyone actually think that this isn't blatantly obvious? Are they unclear on the definitions of the word "original"?

The broom stopped being the original when the bristles wore out. The ship stopped being the original when the planks reached a condition where they needed to be replaced. Repairs are fundamentally an attempt to fix the damage that made an object distingishable from its original form and function.

If you take apart a ship and build two copies of it, one with the planks of the original, then neither is the original, you just have two imitations, one of which is more convincing than the other.

That's because the very definition of "original" in relation to objects is the model that serves as a basis for copies or imitations.

It's not that difficult to understand. At least the greeks had an excuse for being unaware of basic definitions since dictionaries probably weren't widespread at the time, but Hobbes should have known better.

And as for the "link to the human condition",

No shit we aren't our original bodies or minds. Our original body was a single celled organism that turned into a glorified fetal tapeworm, and our original mind was nothing more than a basic desire to shit and an obsession with our mother's tits. Granted some people don't progress too much further in the mental department, but anyone with a brain should be able to look at a fully grown man and understand that he's not the parasite hooked up to his mom's blood supply that he was several decades ago. No clear answer that makes us ponder reality my ass.

In relation to the cannon problem, it's clearly referring to the cannon from the original ship that is being disassebled, since the mettalic ship wouldn't have existed when it was written.

>> No.43653006

>Party constantly gets ambushed.
>Wizard binds some hell hounds to help watch the party's back.
>Hell hounds imprint on the party and follow them loyally.
>Party enjoys their new and interesting companions and have fun interacting with them.
>Paladin kills the hounds because they ping as evil.

>Party goes on adventure in double hell and kills lots of demons.
>Trail of demon corpses attracts a young abandoned Bebelith who wanders into camp.
>The Sorcerer miraculously makes his knowledge check and realizes the Bebelith can be communicated with.
>Bebelith asks the mysterious strangers if he can join their band and is willing to help for the small price of being allowed to eat demons.
>Druid also makes his knowledge and sense motive check and confirms that the Bebelith only enjoys eating demon flesh.
>Party agrees to let the sapient apex predator who has literally evolved to hunt and kill demons join them.
>Party enjoys their new and interesting companion and those who know abyssal spend time interacting with it.
>Paladin kills Bebelith after its been suitably weakened in combat because it pinged as evil and he didnt want to risk getting his armor broken by taking it head on.

>Party encounters stealth segment
>Rogue finally gets his time to shine
>Party agrees to let him do his thing
>Paladin forbids him from doing so because its "dishonorable" under threat of a good stabbing.

Fuck paladins, literally most anti fun class there is. Sometimes I suspect they throw their tantrums not because its against their moral code but just because they always want the spotlight on them.

>> No.43653105

>>43653006
aside from this never happening, why was the paladin with a party that clearly had no qualms working with demons in the first place?\

There is no limitation on sneaking in any code of honor. There has never been any rule in and code of honor that the party must also follow a paladin's code

>> No.43653117

>>43653006
>Party wants to cavort with evil monster
>Party wants to cavort with evil demon

The third one is a good example of poorly playing a paladin, but what the hell did the party expect when they introduced beings made of pure metaphysical evil to anyone who is good aligned, much less a paladin?

>> No.43653127

>>43653105
>Fantastic things happening in a fantastic setting.
>Unrealistic

>>43653117
>Everyone born in an evil plane is evil and must be killed immediately!

>> No.43653168

>>43653127
Does it show up as evil on the test to determine if something is evil?
>Yes
Is it part of an outsider race, undead, an evil cleric, or is it just holding onto something that's probably evil?
>It's an outsider race.
An Evil outsider? Keep in mind that things with an Evil subtype are actually made out of literal, physical evil.
>Yes, it's an Evil subtype outsider
Well then it's obviously evil. It's pinging as evil, it's from an Evil plane, and it's literally made out of evil.
>Well, that's, um,
>I was just pretending to be retarded!

I know you were.

Good we cleared that up.

>> No.43653199

>>43653168
Cool lawful stupid way of thinking you got there!

>> No.43653241

In my experience, the only people that don't like paladins as a concept are edgy shitlords.

>> No.43653242

>>43653199

Actually, he's completely right.

Think about it for a second. What makes you Evil in D&D? Well, you're evil if you're Undead or a demon, if you're above 5 HD and a complete fucker, and/or a worshipper of an evil god.

If someone pings evil, he's REALLY BAD NEWS. It's actually a good reason to kill someone, or at least investigate further. Hell, even being born on an Evil plane doesn't make you ping evil; Technically, being Undead doesn't necessarily make you evil either.

If you're Evil, you're a piece of shit.

>> No.43653255

>>43651733
>Tumblr: the board game

>> No.43653256

>>43653241

Basically this. They're especially uncomfortable when you're dealing with someone who's the living embodiment of everything they mock...And he draws divine strength from it.

It's like an atheist running into a Cleric who is getting his God to smite bad guys left, right and center.

>> No.43653335

>>43651826
The scientific method is a philosophical approach, you're presenting a false dichotomy.

Any research-based PhD course worth its salt will require you to have had a course in the philosophy of science.

>> No.43653350

>>43653242
>If someone pings evil, he's REALLY BAD NEWS
This.

If anything, the problem isn't with Paladins who react in a completely normal manner to finding out that they're near a being of such concentrated evil.

It's with GMs not reading the rules and thinking that anyone who's done a single bad thing in their lives should ping as capital E Evil.

>> No.43653373

>>43642763
>an argument
no
you are dumb
you are very dumb and you should be ashamed
you are very dumb and should never share your opinion again

>> No.43653401

>>43643220
>It's not my fault if George RR Martin is the only person writing realistic fantasy.
my fucking sides

>> No.43653402

>>43653256
as an atheist I would be pretty sick hype if somebody saved me from some shit with jesus bullets.
so I don't know if the metaphor works.

>> No.43653431

>>43640421
People just like the idea of a righteous paragon of morality ready to fight for what he believes in and to defend the weak, I guess.
But their code of contact can seem needlessly strict and unnecessary for them to achieve that goal.

>> No.43654584

>>43653256
Yeah, what >>43653402 said. If an atheist is given proof that gods exist and still doesn't budge, he's actually a misotheist instead of an atheist.

>> No.43655691

>>43651650
Use the image searches next time.

It's Akame ga Kill btw

>> No.43655750

For my next setting, I'm making Paladin World. It is a world where everyone starts out Lawful Good, and everyone has a different idea of what Lawful Good is.

>> No.43656287

>>43653006
I often get saddled with breaking paladins of these habits. It's really satisfying to see a paladin learn the difference between actions and thoughts. As for the stealth stuff, never faced such a situation, but I tend to pack a lot of cc spells, so I think if worse comes to worse I could subdue with with non-lethal measures.

Yeah, my clerics, witches, and sorcerers make better paladins than most actual paladins

>> No.43656456

>>43642168
Most of the Paladins I've seen people play didn't use their mounts, if they even had one to begin with.

Plus, Clerics can buy mounts too, they just don't get any special bonuses above and beyond what a normal horse of that level of quality gets.

>> No.43656550

>>43656287
Are you trying to imply a Paladin should not kill hell hounds on sight?

That is the most sensible and most realistic response.

>> No.43656653

>>43656550
A thoughtless action is very rarely the most reasonable.

There's no rule saying paladins need to be morons who can't grasp the notion of cause and effect.

>> No.43656708

>>43656550
I'm breaking the habit of strike first, ask questions never, which is a huge step for many paladins, the idea that you judge a being on its actions and context rather than if it pings as "evil" or not.

As >>43656653 pointed out, it's about it not being thoughtless action.

>> No.43656995

>>43640421
I hope this has been posted already but I'll try anyways.

>> No.43657069

>>43656995
I hate this because it implies that it's impossible to get that alignments aren't supposed contradict themselves without trial and error.

>> No.43657089

>>43640447
I think "Totally not Captain Carrot" is a good way to go with it, but people have trouble with the concept.

You could also arguably go "Judge Dredd" but only if you understood the nuance of the comics.

Before you say anything Paladins are very martial, and by the book. Dredd isn't basically bad, the full on Lawful part too. Especially if you accept the idea of "being within one step of your deity" or paladins of Lawful Neutral deities. The Lawful is the important part. And Paladins are based on medieval knights, who were comfortable with punching people in the mouth for Law and Good. They also used plenty of weapons. It's a long established thing that Paladins solve problems by hitting them with swords or fists in this game too. I mean, they won't if they don't have to, but if they do, they beat your ass.

Then maybe heal you so you won't die, but still beat your ass.

>> No.43657244

>>43656995
>Even if your DM punishes you for every lawful good act you perform, it's better to fight for righteous causes than to succumb to easier, wanton paths
And on the other side, we have a DM who rewards for every edgy, evil act done.

>> No.43657469

>>43656708
But its a DEMON, its a being of pure evil.

That is as idiotic as the people who try to justify necromancy as good and think they should be able to summon zombie while there is a Paladin in the party.

Something that pings as evil is meant to be an inherently dangerous being that a Paladin has to deal with. And if its an actual hell hound there are not many questions to ask it. Don't put evil in quotes, its an actual objective thing in this game.

>> No.43657652

>>43657469
>inherently dangerous
Pretty much everything is inherently dangerous.

>its an actual objective thing in this game.
It's also often irrelevant. If the "evil" is harmless because it is being controlled and funneled into constructive purposes, then getting rid of it sets back the cause of good. Which a reasonable paladin shouldn't do, unless some part of his faith or something gets in the way. But that's another thing.

>> No.43657683

>>43651733

I highly doubt a nihilist would be able to use a spell like ubermensch. Then again I don't know what you would call a follower of Nietche but that'd be what you want if you want to wield the Tuning fork and cast Eternal Recurance.

>> No.43657727

>>43657469
I'm kind of liking the idea of a scholar Paladin who not only teams up with, but actively seeks out necromancers and warlocks, looking not to change their methods but to find ways to turn their actions towards good.

>What lies there is only the corpse. Its soul lies where good men go, but right now these people need protectors, and this land needs to be rebuilt. Raise it necromancer, prove that even death has a meaning.
>You are powerful sorcerer, each man here knows that now. But in a hundred years, you can be a forgotten blood stain on my blade, or you can be the hero who sealed away the demon that no other man could face.

>> No.43657922

>>43651869
>Helping other people
>Objectivists

>> No.43657938

>>43651637
So, Rules Cyclopedia D&D?

Paladins start out as Fighters.

>> No.43657969

>>43655691
>It's Akame ga Kill btw
Isn't that show supposed to be terrible edgy bullshit?

>> No.43658012

>>43657938
Same for Hackmaster, which is what I based my example off. It's very difficult to become a Paladin in that system, meaning you'll have to face several trials in order to earn the right to become one. If a player somehow still manages to play a Paladin wrong after having gone through everything to qualify rather than just going down a stat checklist during character creation, then I don't know what would remedy them.

>> No.43658050

>>43657727
DnD canon necromancy is pulling evil energy from the plane of evil to desecrate corpses. it's evil

>> No.43658125

>>43658050
No, it's pulling destructive energy from the plane of destruction. Putting it in corpses without a good set up will make the corpses seek to spread destruction. That doesn't mean you can't set it up well.

It's the same for a sword. A sharp metal edge can hurt people. That doesn't mean you can't use it responsibly.

>> No.43658289

>>43658125
If you don't have a problem with desecrating the dead, I think necromancers are actually really easy characters to play heroically. It's pretty difficult in any case to make a guy that advances the plans of demons morally right, even if he moves along good simultaneously, but necromancers in a lot of settings tend to have overlap with healers and spirit men in others.

A backwards village who couldn't find a healer might've settled for the town necromancer, who does all the same spiritual rites to guide the dead away and applies his knowledge of anatomy practically. When the season comes that the spirits are at unrest, he'll let you talk to your dead loved ones for a warm meal.

>> No.43658380

>>43658289
Desecration is a matter of social and religious customs, so it would depend on whatever they happen to be locally.

If you're talking about any of the standing examples, I didn't see any where the plans of demons were advanced.

>> No.43658499

>>43658289
you seem to be confusing necormancers in DnD with necormancers in mythology. If you want to flavor your necros more classically fine by me, but don't act like that flavor isn't completely opposite their intended design according to the DnD writers

>> No.43658512

>>43657469
Hey. Not telling you not to squish the demon, just telling you to wait to squish it until it actually starts acting evil.

Also, what about the necromancer who uses his research to advance healing techniques? I'm like 90% certain at least one edition of D&D put healing as necromancy (which I honestly felt was most fitting).

>> No.43658630

>>43658499
There is nothing inherently evil about necromany in D&D.

>> No.43659093

>>43657969
Yes, incredibly so.
Just because it's bad doesn't mean it can't be fun though.

>> No.43659278

>>43658630
Apart from the fact that you are disturbing the the dead, usually by enslaving their corpses and often by binding their souls as well.

>> No.43659325

>>43658050
Only in 3.X/PF

>> No.43659361

>>43659278
No, not in d&d terms. The soul doesn't return to the corpse, it's in the afterlife, so the dead are not disturbed. What inhabits the corpse is plain old negative energy and possibly some of your own magic. A lifeless thing (the corpse) can't be enslaved.

>> No.43659392

>>43659278
>usually by enslaving their corpses
Who cares? That's not them anymore. That's detritus. The real them is busy partying it up in Ysgard or wherever. Zombies, skeletons, et al are harmless to the deceased, you just have to be careful when you use them to constructively channel the destructive urges of the corpse. You could have them do demolitions, or kill dangerous wildlife, or guard against raids.

>> No.43660244

Why didn't they just make an all-power Necromancer Police that punishes anyone who's using their necromancy for good if they really wanted them to be 100% evil?

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