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[ERROR] No.43437181 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

More sexuality in 40k Edition!

>Rules databases


>40k 7th edition quick reference sheet(s).

>Forgeworld Book index

>/tg/ 40k argument lore and tactica.

>> No.43437220

1st for Darkstrider works in Taucurion

>> No.43437573

How strong are DKoK? Can they be played competitively in any way?

>> No.43437592


It might be worth saying that my friends are getting Tau and Tyranids, the nid player is getting pic related while I have no idea what the other is getting. We are mostly in it for the fluff and the painting so I'm not trying to tailor my army to theirs, but I know I'll be facing a lot of MC so I'm trying to figure out witch weapon to bring. Since everyone is getting a battle force for starter we though of using 800-1000pts so here is my first attempt ever to making a list

>Wolf Lord 105pts
>Runic armour 20pts
>Frost sword 20pts
Total 145pts

>bloodclaws(9)(Wolf Lord attach) 108pts
>wolf guard pack leader 10pts
>power sword 15pts
>Two wolf claws(pack leader) 30pts

>Grey hunter(6) 84pts
>Wolf guard pack leader 10pts
>Plasmagun 15pts
>Combi-Plasma 10pts

>Grey hunter(5) 70pts
>Wolf guard pack leader 10pts
>Plasmagun 15pts
>Combi-Plasma 10pts
Total 372pts

=Fast attack=
>Drop pod(bloodclaws) 35pts

>skyclaws(5) 75pts
>Wolf guard sky leader 10pts
>power sword 15pts
>two wolf claws 30pts
Total 165pts

=Heavy Support=
>Long fangs(5) 30pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
Total 90 pts

Grand total of 772pts

I'm short of 800pts, how those it look? Anything I overlooked? I'll look into getting a rhino or a razorback later, it might be fun.

>> No.43437612


>> No.43437686

Right, so I've been out since 5th, and thinking about a big project Demonkin style army.

Thing of it is, I just found out I can basically do whatever I want for army construction, and now I'm wondering.

I was thinking about 99% Demonkin, but I love the shit out of Culuxes assassins, and would love to include one in my army.

From what people have been telling me, I can totally do this, but they've been pretty unclear about how it works and what it does to me in list construction and on the table.

Anyone mind explaining it to me?

>> No.43437722

>Long fangs(5) 30pts
Really? Arent they 15pts/guy?

>> No.43437766

>not building the S7 T6 W5 A10 2+/3++ IWND AP2 Rending Lord with 4 S5 Wolf attacks


>> No.43437828

Stop letting your autism judge your models and just get them done, that's what I do

You can touch them up later

>> No.43437838

see pic related


How do I do that? I'm all ears.

>> No.43437845

Thanks for replying, but I meant actually getting out of bed and getting the will to do it. I keep going "today is the day", but I never do it.

But I think that'll help, yes. Just gotta stop worrying about the models and just make them.

Thanks anon.

>> No.43437893

30 points is the price for 2 dudes, you can add up to 4 more for 15 points a model. lrn 2 read

>> No.43437965

My mate wants to field a Knight in under 1500 points using AdMech/Skitarii and SoB. He is rather competetive, but I actually try to build fluffy lists. I don't want to lose every time though, so just as a thought experiment, would you consider this a fluffy list for Iron Warriors?

The knight is mostly there to counter his. Also do you think its a strong or rather weak list? Very low mobility makes me think it can easily be outplayed and maybe deepstriking units will fuck it up

+++ New Roster (1495pts) +++

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ (No Category) +

Force Options (Supplement options here) [No unique force (Vanilla CSM Codex)]

Show Forgeworld

+ HQ +

Warpsmith [Aura of dark glory, Bolt Pistol, Power Axe, Warlord]

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [Autocannon, 9x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, Plasma Gun]
····Aspiring Champion [Boltgun, Close Combat Weapon]

Chaos Space Marines [Autocannon, 9x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, Plasma Gun]
····Aspiring Champion [Boltgun, Close Combat Weapon]

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Vindicator

Obliterators [3x Obliterator]

+ Lord of War +

[FW] Chaos Knight Errant

++ Renegades of Vraks: IASoV - The Lost and the Damned (2015) (The Purge) ++

+ HQ +

Renegade Command Squad [4x Disciple w/ Lasgun, Flak Armour]
····Arch Demagogue [Close Combat Weapon, Flak Armour, Laspistol, No Chaos Covenant, Ordnance Tyrant, Warlord]

+ Elites +

Renegade Chaos Spawn

Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery [Militia Training]
····Artillery Carriage [4x Crew, Medusa Siege Cannon]

Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery [Militia Training]
····Artillery Carriage [4x Crew, Medusa Siege Cannon]

+ Heavy Support +

Renegade Field Artillery Battery
····Field Artillery [3x Crew, Heavy Quad Launcher]

>> No.43437966

You're right my bad. I should have paid closer attention.
I actually reach the 800pts mark

>Wolf Lord 105pts
>Runic armour 20pts
>Frost sword 20pts
Total 145pts

>bloodclaws(9)(Wolf Lord attach) 108pts
>wolf guard pack leader 10pts
>power sword 15pts
>Two wolf claws(pack leader) 30pts

>Grey hunter(6) 84pts
>Wolf guard pack leader 10pts
>Plasmagun 15pts
>Combi-Plasma 10pts

>Grey hunter(5) 70pts
>Wolf guard pack leader 10pts
>Plasmagun 15pts
>Combi-Plasma 10pts
Total 372pts

=Fast attack=
>Drop pod(bloodclaws) 35pts

>skyclaws(5) 75pts
>Wolf guard sky leader 10pts
>power sword 15pts
>two wolf claws 30pts
Total 165pts

=Heavy Support=
>Long fangs(5) 75pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
>Missile launcher 15pts
Total 135 pts

Grand total of 817pts

Anything else I should be aware off?

>> No.43438041 [SPOILER] 

No problem anon, also I've seen you post here before m8 talking about this and I reckon you gotta stop letting this illness hold you back and just get shit fuckin done eh

We're all gonna make is bruh

>> No.43438052

For those too lazy to read through it, its 1500 poins
1 warpsmith, aura of dark glory.
2x10 CSM with plasma and autocannon
3x Obliterator
Chaos Knight Errant (Melta variant)

Allied: Renegades/Lost and Damned (Purge)
Renegade Command. Ordnance Tyrant
Elites: 3x Chaos spawn
2x Medusa, military training
Quad Launcher

Nobody has a mark of any chaosgod. Spawns are there as rather cheap units to throw against enemies about to charge me and provide some meatshield to the warsmith.

>> No.43438065

They are a bit less powerful than normal IG. So no, they really cant be.

>> No.43438090

Oh God... I'll need to download the Codexes. Hang on.

>> No.43438103

Taking a frost sword instead of two claws is a more efficient way to gear your Pack Leaders. They aren't that durable (1 wound, 3+ armor), so try not to spend too many points on those individual dudes, especially not 10 points for Shred.

Switching those two dudes appropriately puts you under 800 points, allowing all three of you to aim for a 800-point maximum. Dealing with nice, round numbers is generally helpful, and more in-line with how most people structure their lists.

>> No.43438106

Ah... Sorry. I do talk a lot bout it, don't really have anybody else to talk to.

Thanks again man.

>> No.43438165

I need some notes and Analysis on this list, it's going up to some tournaments. The Chapter Tactics are Raptors

1750 pts
> Lias Issodon: 175 pts

> 10-man tactical squad, Grav-gun, Combi-grav, Grav-Cannon, Auspex: 205
> 10 man tactical squad, Grav-gun, Combi-grav, Auspex : 170
> 10 man tactical squad, Grav-gun, Combi-grav, Auspex: 170

==Heavy Support==
> 10 man devastator squad, 4 Missile Launchers: 200
> 1 Vindicator: 120 points

> 3-man Dreadnought Squad 300 points
> 5-man terminator squad: Hammers & storm shields: 225 points

== Transports ==
> Rhino, Extra storm bolter: 40pts

> Callidus Assassin, 145 pts

The gist of it is that Lias Issodon uses his warlord trait to infiltrate the tacticals into solid cover near the enemy, reacting to whatever his deployment is. Infiltrate, Isolate, Destroy is used to expose/soften up the enemy command squad for my callidus to snag up first turn Slay The Warlord, and if that's not possible than I will use it on a vehicle to troll for First Blood during deployment.

Lias Issodon grants Shrouded to a squad of my choice. His abilities combined with the Callidus also means that my opponent's first reserve roll is done on a 7+, and further rolls on a 4+.

>> No.43438207

Yes that makes sense. Changing both sergeant to frost sword+bolt pistol puts me at 797pts. much closer to our goal of 800.

>> No.43438223

Looking at building a Hunting Force from the Kauyon book and I have some bike related questions
1) Attacks Bikes; run solo or squads of two?
2) How do I scout bikers? Since I need 1 mandatory unit I'm trying to choose between min sized, maybe with a couple of grenade launchers, or going for 5+ to get the double HoW attacks for harassing heavy support guys/small objective sitters etc
3)Is the glaive worth it for 30pts? Seems like it could be pretty nasty on a captain, especially since Scars get H&R, plus I can still throw the Eye on a Chaplain for that sweet sweet ignores cover

>> No.43438326

Why can Stormboyz, Burnas, etc. not take 'Eavy Armour?

>> No.43438338


Wolf Lord: 105 points
Storm Shield (3++): 15 points
Black Death (+2S AP2 +3A when out numbered): 25 points
Wulfen Stone (Furious Charge to Bearer + Unit, Rage to Bearer): 40 points
Thunder Wolf (+1S +1T +1W +1A +Rending to all melee attacks) 50 points
Runic Armour (2+): 20 points

So, base Wofl Lord is S4 T4 W3 I4 A4.
So, Thunder Wolf makes him S5 T5 W4 I4 A5. Then Black Death makes him S7 T5 W4 I4 A5(+3 if out numbered). Then Wulfen Stone makes him S8 T5 W4 I4 A6(+3 if out numbered) (and gives +1S to his unit). Counter-Attack means he always has +1A, whether he charges or not. So he's S8 T5 W4 I4 A6(+1)(+3 if out numbered). All at AP2.

Now, I mentioned IWND. In the Champions of Fenris codex, there is a armour which is 2+/4++, gives IWND, Relentless but you can't make Sweeping Advances. If you want to, drop the Storm Shield (you lose 3++, but 4++ isn't bad) and gain IWND. And this means you end up with ANOTHER attack due to having a pistol + melee weapon. So you now do 11A when outnumbered and 8 when you're not. At S8 AP2 Rending.

Yes it's expensive, but if you have 3 Thunder Wolf Cav with SS as his bodyguard, you'll be outnumbered by everything bar MC's.

>> No.43438376


>> No.43438386

It's mostly to discourage novice players from taking legitimately great options. You can make them god-tier by putting Burnas/lootas in a Trukk.

The stormboyz need to have a Bike-Bigmek with the Kustom Force Field to really shine, as that'll get them in melee with basically anything.

>> No.43438390

Yeah thats fine and dandy but can he take on Abby or Sigismund?

>> No.43438398

In normal games, I'd recommend not to bother with Wulfen Stone or Runic Armour. That'll save 60 points.

You'll then be 3+/3++ S7 T5 W4 I4 A5(+1)(+3) AP2 Rending.

195 points total if you build him like that. That's cheaper or equal to every Lord of War and much better stated. I can't think of any Lord of War that's 3+/3++ S7 T5 W4 I4 and able to dish out 9 AP2 Rending Attacks. Even if not outnumbered, 6 is still more than every other LoW.

>> No.43438414

I'm saving this for later. I didn't plan on getting TWC for a while but they are the mean reason I'm playing with space Wolves. You can't beat the look of space marines on giant wolves.

>> No.43438433

I guess that makes a lot of sense, It just sucks because I'm poor as shit and can't afford huge hordes of models right now, so taking 'eavy armour makes it a lot easier to play with models that I love

GW gonna GW I guess...

>> No.43438489

Running Attack Bikes solo is nice for keeping that part of the Force cheap. If you want them to actually go out and threaten things, then run them in squads of 3 and give them multi-meltas.

For your Hunting Force, make them all 5-man unless you know 100% that the Scouts will only sit on objectives...which is kinda silly, considering they don't have Objective Secured.

30 points is dirt cheap for an at-Initiative S+3 AP2 weapon - for comparison, the Burning Blade is 55 points and has that pseudo-Gets Hot. A biker Captain with artificer armor and the Glaive is 160 - way cheaper than many beatstick HQs, and he gets to swing before most of the ones that have AP2.

You have more than enough points to fit in a Librarius Conclave all on bikes alongside a Hunting Force and auxiliary of your liking, and one of them can take the Eye.

>> No.43438498

Sigismund in 30k and is OP as fuck in 1v1's.

As for Abby? I don't think so. Abby will do 6 attacks at a higher WS and Initiative. However, if your Wolf Lord survives it (T5 W4 3+/3++ isn't to be sniffed at) then he'll end up dishing out 6 attacks of his own at S7 AP2 Rending.

I'd still say Abby wins, but it'd be a fun fight. Of course if you did the FULL build (which would take you into 300 points mark) then it'd be easier, but there is no point. The point is you can build a generic lord with better stats than Lords of War.

>> No.43438510

Okay, okay. We all know about Shas'o Bah'ma.

How does Putin's formation work?
everything gets Skyfire and Preferred Enemy: Crimeans

>> No.43438532

What are you saying sorry for man? Like I said don't let the illness hold you back, do you really think I care if you're sorry on this bolivian rice trading message board?

what cuntry you in anyway man? If straya I'll come swing by and we can do some painting

>> No.43438542


Different person but what about Burnas and Lootas in a Battle Fortress?

>> No.43438547

You have us, bruv.
We never leave.

>> No.43438583

I'm not familiar with the Battlefortress, but what matters is the following:

Burnas: Assault Transport so you can Om-nom things on the charge
Lootas: Relentless Open-top/shit ton of firing ports

Trukk's provide both of those concepts thanks to Open-top. I'm not sure what the Battle Fortress provides though.

>> No.43438642

It's cool anon, I'd certainly wink my right eye 16 times, moonwalk backwards while chopping my hand, and scream the into to Immigrant Song if I met you irl.

>> No.43438707


Not the guy you're talking to, but I wanted to give you a thumbs up for being a cool dude.

>> No.43438752

I just play them with the IG codex.
2 Wyverns and 3 Thudd Guns lets me adhere to the Krieg fluff while using the codex.

>> No.43438770

Thanks guys. I know this attention seekingfaggotry in a way, but when you got nobody else to talk to about stuff. Gets on top, ya now?

Life ruined cause I stood up to a cunt bully. Oh well.

Interestingly SEGA just released a shitty DLC for DoW2. I wonder if DoW3 will be announced soon.... Or maybe E3 next year.

>> No.43438809

Motherfucker, we all gotta lean on somebody now and then.

If you think we're the faggots to go to, we can hardly refuse a brother in plastic dudes.

Talk if you want to. The cunts are asleep anyway.

>> No.43438827


>I'm not familiar with the Battlefortress

This thing.

Never could decide it's utility as an assault vehicle myself.

>> No.43438831

I would consider avoiding Daemonkin. Chaos is due for an update, early 2016 most likely. Since Daemonkin is a 7th edition codex that uses the ultra-shitty 6th edition statlines, its a fair bet that the Chaos update will make Daemonkin obsolete.

>> No.43438840

Well fuck, now I have to check steam

>> No.43438859


Lootas aren't Relentless.

Unless you're talking about the whole "Sticking a Mega-Armored Mek to give them SnP" thing.
I find taking away their ability to Overwatch to be to big of a hindrance, honestly.
Of course I play in an assault heavy meta so you might have better luck.

>> No.43438883

Scrap these and gather up the change.
Run it down to 5 man. If they're being fired at it means your tacs are idle or already down and you've fucked up.
Get another with the points you save. One vindicator always becomes a meat shield.
>Dreadnought talon
Will have trouble getting into melta range but i'm assuming this is your primary distraction. I am biased towards naughts though so I like this.
Need a transport if you don't plan to only drop them near Issodon.

What is this for?

>Cadillus assassin
I have no experience with this thing so it's your call. I have a vindicare in my assassin slot that I use to snipe out sarges and special weapons.

>> No.43438885

it's the same shit they pulled for Total War. I'm actually surprise they remembered DoW2 existed.

>Great Unclean One on the DLC banner
>Not a Khorne alling unit


>> No.43438905

Callidus is either really good or really bad, there's really no in-between.

>> No.43438907


Id drop the Warpsmith for a beatstick Lord or a Sorcerer. Id also drop the Vindicator for either 3 more spawn, or 2 more Quad Launchers.
The two squads of 10 CSM on foot are confusing me too. I feel like you could stick them in Rhinos for mobility and grabbing obj's/linebreaker.

>> No.43438916

Is TL Fusion Blaster & 1 plasma gun good load out for deepstriking Crisis Suits?

>> No.43438939

Sure. Depends on what you're DS'ing against, of course, but TL melta is always good.

>> No.43438968

Working on a cheesy Kill Team list at the moment, how's this look?

Iron Hands Tactics

+Command Squad+
>Bikes for squad
>Vet with grav gun x4
>Apothecary with grav gun

Went with iron hands for the 4+ FnP, but would white scars be better for the skilled rider? Also considering dropping a pair of gravs for 2 stormshields to avoid having to jink.

>> No.43438984

The bloody dlc for shogun 2 made it a bit more entertaining to watch the fighting, this does nothing for the game

>> No.43438988

GW kill team or Heralds of Ruin kill team?

>> No.43439003

It would be three suits with Farsight to act as a scalpel for something I can't get to.

Not sure if I have two much fusion though, I'd have:
2 Ghostkeel double fusion
2 Pirahna with fusion
2 three man scout squads with fusion

My meta is entirely marine with now necron so I assume that the fusion is still nice to have as back up guy removal.

>> No.43439018

pushing Heralds of ruin for my FLGS, but right now we're doing the GW version because it has a physical book that new players can read up on in the store.

>> No.43439027

Yeah, with that meta you're fine. If you had to deal with blobs, flamers might be of interest, but as it is fusion melts MEQ just fine.

>> No.43439073

Why's that? Consider the Tau codex. The update changed no stats and most if not all of the points remained unchanged. Unit comp was changed for some units and the new detachment and units were added, but those you can get via the Kauyon campaign.

It's not out of the question if Chaos got the same treatment.

>> No.43439081


I'd say it's only utility would be as an assault vehicle considering it's guns are really, really sad for a Super-heavy.

It'd be pretty fun to have multiple units in it to eat up that 30 man capacity and then drive it right up the board to wreak some havoc.
Expensive as shit, but fun regardless.

>> No.43439107

Would it make sense that the Farsight Enclave has access to the new formations as well? I know for most of them its probably a downside to have to pay for bonding knives (other than the Riptide special system), but I feel like the fairness for Farsight is paying for that tax.

>> No.43439108

Apothecary can't take a grav gun, btw. Also, refresh my memory, does the whole squad benefit from FNP from the apothecary if the bikes are treated as single model units under the kill team rules?

>> No.43439111

That, and AV11 on the fucking back
It's no fon getting glanced to death by heavy bolters

>> No.43439153


At the moment I think it's highly unlikely the Enclaves have any Ghostkeels, but we may see it justified in the Kayuon sequel or something.

>> No.43439167

If all you want to do is take those formations while rocking out a farsight supplement CAD, then yes you can. No worries on that count. If you're asking can you take these formations using units pulled from the farsight supplement and thus gaining all their benefits and drawbacks, I don't think so but I am not sure

>> No.43439175

Sounds pretty good. Main reason I was asking about the glaive is because if he can't H&R, or if he gets charged he's stuck with a slightly better power sword. Not to mention he's vulnerable to ID, since the glaive means he can;t have the shield eternal

What would you recommend for the other auxiliary?

>> No.43439187

thought in the FAQ it said the apoc could be upgraded as normal, or maybe it was adepticon or some such, but totally forgot about the individual units, so he's out the door anyway.

New list in progress:

White Scar Tactics

+Command Squad+
>Veteran on bike w/ grav gun x5

>> No.43439204

Well rules wise, they do have access to Ghostkeels, but fluff wise they are known to hijack suits from passing Tau ships. Depending onswhen the Ghostkeel actually started to exist in the fluff world, it would make sense to have one, since that's also how they got their riptides.

>> No.43439237

Tau's 6th edition codex was still competitive in 7th edition. You cant say the same for CSM.

>> No.43439296

Ok (the 2x10 CSM were there mostly for theme reasons, I consider them maybe the least effective unit in the list).

Do you consider the list fluffy?

>> No.43439297

IMO, the small model count will kill you. Assuming 200 pts limit, I can bring 18 scouts, all bolters. Or I can bring something like 30 boyz, all shootaz. While you can kill 5 of my guys a round reliably, I can drown you in weight of dice and the trade will almost always be in my favor, especially if I get to go first. IMO, sternguard are a better choice for a more elite style army, but that is just me

>> No.43439332

I agree. However, it is still not out off the question, especially since this is GW we are talking about. Will they overhaul the Chaos dex? or will they slap a decurion style formation, a bunch of auxilliaries and call it a day? Seeing as the Tau has set a precedent for it, I won't be surprised if that is what GW is gonna do for chaos. It also has the benefit of keeping in line with KDK, but when has GW ever cared for the fate of an earlier codex? Space Wolves and Blood Angels, I am looking at you

>> No.43439334

On the other hand, CSM can be fixed in various ways. Points cost aren't atrocious for most of the units, and adding a special rule (similar to Fire Team) to them might make them really good. I doubt chaos marines are actually going to get good, so hope for a powerful formation detachment if you actually want to use them.

Personally, I hope you guys get the boon tabled removed and replaced with either legion tactics or god tactics. After, playing against CSM fairly often, the boon table seems like the worst part of the codex by far.

>> No.43439360

Which is the most broken formation in all 40k?

>> No.43439428

Wraithguard spam off the top of my head

>> No.43439435

If by worst you mean the most inconsequential part of the codex, I agree. Most times you get a boon that you have no use for. Scratch that. Make that all times. I have not ever gotten a boon that I could use or that would have turned the tide of battle for me.

>> No.43439442

Probably either Gladius Strike Force or War Convocation.

>> No.43439469

probably the cantopek formation. Giving reanimation to wraiths, combined with the decurion for 4+, is pretty disgusting.

>> No.43439471

Different guy, but how do you suggest running drop pod sternies? I have enough bits to do whatever I want, i just need to figure out my best options.

I'll have 17 sternguard by the time strike for solaq comes in the mail

>> No.43439506

>Gladius Strike Force

Battle Company is shit. War Convocation is way better in terms of "lol free stuff: the formation", Decurion is way better in terms of "lol they just won't die: the formation", Eldar anything is way better in terms of firepower. Battle Company is the best at Objective Secured, but since when is standing on objectives while slowly dying considered "broken"?

>> No.43439510


Just an idea but I was theorycrafting a Ravenwing/White Scars Hybrid with a Librarius Conclave.

You take your White Scars Commander on a bike with the Glave, and Interrogator Chaplain with the Mace Of Redemption, and then put both of them and a Librarian with the Eye in a Maxed out ravenwing Command Squad.

Now you get Ignores cover plasma with Furious Charge S6 Rending Hammers, Rerolls from Chaplain, and the AP2/AP3.

Stick one Librarian on a bike with each of the ravenwing Squads and under a darkshroud everybody is getting rerollable 2+ jinks and skilled rider bonuses.

Spam Psychic Powers short range overwhelming shooting and then hit and run everything into the ground.


>> No.43439511

Well the way I see it, CSM is Space Marines without Chapter Tactics. Missing grav centurions sucks, but Daemon Princes and Heldrakes are pretty damn good (not grave centurion good, but still strong). If CSM gets a good global rule, they might be pretty decent to good in CAD, and if they get a good formation on top of it they could be easily competitive.

>> No.43439522


Objective based missions. My buddy plays a Red Scorpions Battle Company and the FNP does work. Especially with the Librarius Conclave attached for the defensive buffs.

>> No.43439528

I was going to ask, why the hell are there not CSM tactics to make them fun/worthwhile to play?

Like, my chaos friend never runs chosen because, why would he?

>> No.43439554

also different guy, but the fact that they can hyper-specialize in any task is great. If you feel that you need more anti-tank, pack em all with combi meltas. Need horde control? Combi-flamers with a pair of heavy flamers will butcher a chunk of any green tide. Combi-grav works amazingly for filling out anti-MEQ in your army. After they blow their load, their ammo can rip things apart too. I run Imp fists with Pedro Cantor for delicious ob-sec and rerolls on their special issue ammo. haven't found much use for plasma, as melta/grav is mroe efficient when they go drop pod, but a razorback/rhino squad may find use of em.

>> No.43439576

is there a reason not to take five marines with a dev squad if you can just combat squad them and/or use them as ablative wounds?

>> No.43439581

>since when is standing on objectives while slowly dying considered "broken"?
When you just cant wreck those 24 obsec units and pretty much autolose because of that.

And War Convocation is "Free, mostly useless stuff - the formation". Most of its points are in pretty meaningless upgrades like 4++ for you squadleaders, relics, random doohickeys on onagers, pistols on dragoons etc.

>> No.43439584


>and AV11 on the fucking back

Well a Kustom Force Field might help with that.

But I don't really think there is any Ork Super-Heavy that has extremely good rear armor outside of the Stompa.

That might explain why none of the others are really seen as often on the table.

>> No.43439594

I'm thinking about giving them all combi-meltas, but I'm gluing them, not magnetizing them(I'm good at losing shit) so I hope I'm making the right choice.

Not that my friends are dicks, I'm just a hobbyist at heart.

>> No.43439611

CSM have some potentially scary thing already in their codex, Chosen, the ability to take 2 special weapons in a squad, T+1 on whatever they want, etc. The problem is they are all very powerful so they need to cost extra. Unfortunately, they are missing the universal rule to make them worth their base price point.

>> No.43439620

I would be so much happier to fight interesting CSM chapter forces than "hey, these guys are nurgle so T5 all around"

>> No.43439676

I gave mine the fancy bolters from the kit. So long as I dont give one squad different kinds of combi-weapons in a game to keep track of, most people are pretty chill with it. Those new kits where you are limited to making only one kind of combi suck for magnetization.

>> No.43439714

You know, I might just give them all the bolters, since if I'm kitting them with combi, I'm probably kitting THE WHOLE SQUAD with combi, amirite?

>> No.43439760


If you are podding I would at least consider a pair of combi-meltas as they are definitely worth 20 points.

>> No.43439831

If you're podding a ten man sternguard squad, it's not a bad idea to do half of one combi and half of another. Like 5 meltas/5 grav or something like that. This allows you to combat squad them and you have a melta squad for tanks and grav squad for heavy infantry

>> No.43439839

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1060pts) ++

+ HQ (50pts) +

Lord (50pts) [Staff of Light]

+ Troops (260pts) +

Warriors (130pts) [10x Necron Warrior]
Warriors (130pts) [10x Necron Warrior]

+ Heavy Support (750pts) +

Transcendent C'tan (250pts)
Transcendent C'tan (250pts)
Transcendent C'tan (250pts)

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (790pts) ++

+ Formation (790pts) +

Conclave of the Burning One (405pts)
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Cryptek [Staff of Light, The God Shackle]
Cryptek [Staff of Light, The Veil of Darkness]

Conclave of the Burning One (385pts)
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver
Cryptek [The Solar Staff]
Cryptek [Staff of Light]

Semi-competitive fluff-based Necron list. My imagined dynasty is basically obsessed with enslaving the C'tan (moreso than normal Necrons, even) and since they've lost huge numbers of troops pursuing that goal they force the C'tan to fight for them.

>> No.43439856

I agree. Give CSM players solid in game incentives to focus on a god/legion and you're already solid. KDK did a good job of that, actually and I hope they continue to improve upon that and make CSM a varied and fun codex over all

>> No.43439859

Should one always seek to spam as many strength 6-7 weapons as possible? Is this the magic number?

>> No.43439867

The 6th edition CSM codex is one of the worst codexes theyve ever produced. Poor internal balance, bland, full of way overcosted units.

>> No.43439869

Downside of combis are the one use only, so the more you have, the less chance of flubbing the rolls and watching you one chance at popping that leman russ turn one go down the drain as you opponent laughs. stuff like combi gravs that have multiple shots per gun can be taken less, but for meltas definitely 5 minimum for me, or just grab 2 straight up meltaguns instead for multiple rounds of shooting, and presenting a bigger distraction because you didn't blow your load turn one.

>> No.43439872

Sounds interesting. How much would you ball park this at?

>> No.43439920

I know this has probably been answered before, but I've spent 2 hours now trying to figure this out, and I am still not sure.

Can you field formations by themselves? And if so, how does that change what type of army you are?

I was thinking of using the commander+crisis suit+Broadside+Riptide formation for a couple of 1250 point games this weekend. Can I do this and still remain battle-forged?

>> No.43439926


I was just spitballing around 1850.

I can post the list if you are interested.

>> No.43439934

Do eeeeeeeeeeeet

>> No.43439950

Yes you can field just formations and still be battle forged

>> No.43439960

>Can you field formations by themselves?

>And if so, how does that change what type of army you are?
If it's just formations, it's a battleforged army. A battle forged army is an army that is organized in detachments. A formation is a detachment, the decurion style formation is also a detachment, a force org is also considered a detachment. As long as all your models in your list are in one detachment or the other, your army is battle forged

>> No.43439977

Depends on meta but if you don't know what you are against s6-7 reliably wounds almost anything and can dent most vehicles. Combine this with the fact that s6--7 weapons are usually multishot weapons so they are kinda ok against hordes too.

>> No.43440011

Sticking them in a vehicle basically makes them relentless is the point.

>> No.43440023

>CSM is Space Marines without Chapter Tactics

>what is atsknf
>more expensive counterparts with weaker statlines
>no grav

Yeah the Heldrake is great at 170 points.
Obliterators are only good because the other heavy support choices are so bad. In any other codex they would be considered meh. Cultists are ok at 5 ppm, but Scouts are arguably better. Chaos Spawn are incredible at 30 ppm.
Lords and Sorcerers are decent HQ choices in the context of the CSM codex, but not that great in the 7th edition environment. Theyre absolutely boring as fuck to play, and comically underpowered when put up against any army outside of Orks, Blood Angels, or maybe DE. I feel sorry for CSM players that dont have another army to play.

>> No.43440029

Cool, thanks guys.

I don't suppose it makes much difference when taking a detachment where none of them are troops anyway.

>> No.43440062

>Free, mostly useless stuff - the formation

Ha! You obv arent too familiar with the Skitarii or Mechanicum books. WarConvo is a top 5 formation in the game right now.

>> No.43440070


I mean TO BE HONEST SENPAI kitting out a super saiyan wolf lord probably, probably isn't the best way to get into the hobby with two friends who are getting starter boxes. Your friends will figure out really good combo's for their units too (two flyrants with twin linked devourers is 24 Str 6 Shots that DON'T MISS)

However, getting a squad of Thunder Wolf Calvary is definitely a good idea right off the bat, as they are extremely fluffy, one of the focal points of the army and will give you great matchups against both of your friends armies. I would go for it, especially since you like it.

Also, go mobile.

>> No.43440092


I'm here working on it. Will be a minute.

>> No.43440105

way, way wrong.

>a bunch of 1 wound models with no invul

>> No.43440126

I am, I play it (with flesh tearers and usually Assasin). But quite a chunck of the free points dont end up being that usefull. The formations most powerful thing isnt the free points anyway. Its the all units getting chants of omnissiah.

>> No.43440132

Wraith Host
War Convocation
Necron Decurion
Battle Company

Not too far behind:

Whatever Nids do that lets them take 5 Flyrants
Sky Hammer
The Necron one with near indestructable Wraiths

>> No.43440159

>Points cost aren't atrocious for most of the units

The main problem with the book is that you pay more for less, comparitively.

>> No.43440212

What? Where does it say this?

>> No.43440246

Space Wolves didnt get fucked like Blood Angels. The BA book looks like it was purposely made to be bad. SW, DA, and SM all share statlines and point costs for the same units. Fir example BA have weaker stats for HQ's and Scouts, but still cost the same. BT chapter tactics from the SM codex are better Blood Angels than the actual BA codex. BA Terminators cost 25 points more, yet share the same stats, with less kit options. No Centurions, very limited access to Grav.
The BA codex is just a blatant fuck you to anyone that hoped to play BA competitively.

>> No.43440259

>Do you consider the list fluffy?


>> No.43440322


That's not Battle Company's strength, that's Red Scorpions and Librarius Conclave.


If you have trouble making Battle Companies be nearly tabled by the final game turn, try playing a stronger army. Eldar or the new Tau will wipe the floor with Battle Company. Something as simple as a Sicaran generates free VPs every time it shoots. Battle Company may be strong at mission based objectives but they also have a huge handicap during kill point missions.

>> No.43440341

Honestly, the codex is so internal shaky, a lot of the stuff has to be either completely reworked or scrapped. Yeah you have your Defilers and Mutilators that probably need to drop some points, but the imbalance between the mark systems is so potentially busted. Can you imagine Nurgle bikers with access to grav? Give Terminators or anything Storm Shields? Well now Tzeentch is giving them 2+ invulns. There are a ton of combinations that would be absolutely absurd, which is why I see they did it this half-ass way. They'd half to issue a ton of limits, nerf the good marks, or have them cost so much that they aren't even worth taking in the broken load-outs.

>> No.43440459


>"Models firing out of a vehicle that moved at Combat Speed count as having moved that
turn. Models firing out of a vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can only fire Snap Shots
that turn. They cannot fire if the vehicle moves Flat Out or uses smoke launchers that
turn, nor can a vehicle move Flat Out or use smoke launchers if a unit embarked inside it
shoots out."

Nah brah you is wrong.

>> No.43440471

Dude I mostly play War Convocation when going full balls-to-the-wall and battle companies give me headaches in maelstorm.

>> No.43440594

Where a good place to buy some decent recast models? Want to get into the hobby but not willing to spend the sort of cash that GW want to charge for things.

>> No.43440604


What's your typical War Convocation list?

>> No.43440688

i recently really fallen in love whe the CSM HQ choices. build your army around them and they can wreak absolute havoc.
tzeentch lord on disk with 3++ really dishes out the pain, especially if you give him a power axe (for regular 2++ armour) and the murdersword (get that warlord with him)

beeing able to move 36" in a single round (keep him out of LoS) guarantees him to get into CC and once that starts he goes on a killing spree

>> No.43440744

Jebus this is gonna be long

>Flesh Tearers
>Librarian, auspex, melta
>5x scouts, meltabomb
>3x Drop Pods

>Culexus Assasin

>Techpriest Dominus, Eradication Rau, Infoskull, phospor serpenta, scryerskull, statsis field

>2x3 Kataphron Destroyers with flames
>Ironstrider Ballistarii, lascannon
>Onager, Icarus array, all the stuff
>Infiltrators, tasers, omniscient mask, conversion field, digiweapons
>Ruststalkers, razors, conversion field, digi weapons, dataspike, pater radium
>Rangers, omnispex, 2x Arquebus, , arc maul, arc pistol, divinator
>Vanguards, 2x plasma, omnispex, arc maul, arc pistol, phospheonix

>Knight Crusader, Battle cannon, melta, Ironstorm missiles

>> No.43440801

I'm looking into building a tau drone-only army. How effective are remoras? Burst Cannons are ok, but networked marker lights with seeker missiles seem like a great AA option. Thinking about running 2 squadrons of 3.


>> No.43440857

That sounds hystericlal. even if it sucks no idea if it will, I don't play tau you should go for it.

>> No.43440876

How much does this lord cost?

>> No.43440882

If you're doing drone only they'll be your best bet for AA but they'll spend the whole game jinking, so its best to run them solo as much as possible

>> No.43440914

200 Pts with veterans.
has T5 thanks to beeing a jetbike aswell as 5 attacks, 6 on the charge

>> No.43440918

How do you move 36" in a turn? A Tzeentch disc doesnt give you that.

>> No.43440938

Jetbikes can turbo boost 24

>> No.43440961

Not too shabby. While not exactly top tier he can definitely dance with some of the big boys in the game and not fold like a house of cards.

>> No.43440972 [DELETED] 

The Banner of the Eagle 30 Furious Charge Fleet 12"
Glaive of Vengeance 30 S7 AP2/3

Hunters Eye 20
Mantle of the Stormseer 20


Ebay or Craigslist if you aren't in a hurry.

Dark Angels Ravenwing Strike Force

Interrogator Chaplain w/ Bike 130
Librarian on Bike 85

Ravenwing Command Squad x 6; Apothecary, Champion, Company Banner, Grenade Launcher 295
Darkshroud 80
Bike Squad Melta x 3 Bomb 80

White Scars Hunting Force

Chapter Master on Bike with Artificier Armour, Storm Shield, Glaive of Vengeance 195
Command Squad on Bikes, 5 Grav Guns, Banner of the Eagle 230

Bike Squad x 3 w/ Melta Bomb 68
Bike Squad x 3 w/Melta Bomb 68
Scout Bike Squad x 3 54
Attack Bike 40

Speartip Strike 153
Scout Bike x 3 54
Scout Bike x 3 54
Landspeeder 45

Librarian on Bike, Mantle of the Stormseer, Mastery 2 130
Librarian on Bike, Mastery 2, Hunters Eye 130
Librarian on Bike, Mastery 2 110


So The Interrogator Chaplain Joins the Stormseer Librarian and the Chapter Master with the Black Knights. So that's nasty.

Dark Angels Librarian Rides with the White Scars Librarian with Hunters Eye in the Command Squad.

Dark Shrouds give mean that the Command Squad and the Black Knights don't take overwatch fire. Because they have a Dark Angel in them they gain Stealth and Shrouded.

The Dark Angel squad gets skilled rider and therefore a 2+ rerollable, as do the Black Knights.

You are getting a stupid amount of psychic charges, averaging 10 charges and suceeding on a 2+, with Maelstrom and spammable shrieks. You notice there aren't any special weapons other than the Plasma and Grav from the Knights and the Command Squad. I don't have the points. Essentially the Librarians ARE the special weapons. Then you get Furious Charge and hit and run to mop up, and so on. Pretty good stuff. Some nasty mid level CC with the Chapter Master and the Chaplain.

>> No.43440979

the best thing is the murdersword. especially if the enemy has killy characters you want to get rid off.

select one of them as target and as soon as you are in contact with him. your murdersword lets you attack at S8 ap 1 at I5 with instant death rule.

>> No.43440984

Does heavy retribution cadre prevent units from turbo-boosting? Strict rule says that the targeted unit can't run or move flat out.
Turbo-boost says that bikes can't run but instead can turbo-boost.

>> No.43440992

The Provider?

>> No.43440997

>>2x3 Kataphron Destroyers with flames
>against Battle Company
>Knight Crusader
>MELTA instead of the AP3 spitting death machine


>> No.43441025


Ebay or Craigslist if you aren't in a hurry.

Dark Angels Ravenwing Strike Force

Interrogator Chaplain w/ Bike 130
Librarian on Bike 85

Ravenwing Command Squad x 6; Apothecary, Champion, Company Banner, Grenade Launcher 295
Darkshroud 80
Bike Squad x3 Melta Bomb 80

White Scars Hunting Force

Chapter Master on Bike with Artificier Armour, Storm Shield, Glaive of Vengeance 195
Command Squad on Bikes, 5 Grav Guns, Banner of the Eagle 230

Bike Squad x 3 w/ Melta Bomb 68
Bike Squad x 3 w/Melta Bomb 68
Scout Bike Squad x 3 54
Attack Bike w/ HB 40

Speartip Strike 153
Scout Bike x 3 54
Scout Bike x 3 54
Landspeeder 45

Librarian on Bike, Mantle of the Stormseer, Mastery 2 130
Librarian on Bike, Mastery 2, Hunters Eye 130
Librarian on Bike, Mastery 2 110


So The Interrogator Chaplain Joins the Stormseer Librarian and the Chapter Master with the Black Knights. So that's nasty.

Dark Angels Librarian Rides with the White Scars Librarian with Hunters Eye in the Command Squad.

Dark Shrouds give mean that the Command Squad and the Black Knights don't take overwatch fire. Because they have a Dark Angel in them they gain Stealth and Shrouded.

The Dark Angel squad gets skilled rider and therefore a 2+ rerollable, as do the Black Knights.

You are getting a stupid amount of psychic charges, averaging 10 charges and suceeding on a 2+, with Maelstrom and spammable shrieks. You notice there aren't any special weapons other than the Plasma and Grav from the Knights and the Command Squad. I don't have the points. Essentially the Librarians ARE the special weapons. Then you get Furious Charge and hit and run to mop up, and so on. Pretty good stuff. Some nasty mid level CC with the Chapter Master and the Chaplain.

You can also provoke stuff with the speartip formation, or pin them

>> No.43441045

Umm yeah, I dont tailor my lists.
And are you retarded or do you not just know the rules? If i say the knight has battlecannon and melta, what weapons the knight then has? hint: Crusader always has the mega-pewpew-assaultcannon.

>> No.43441221

I snagged the SM from an AoBR box ages ago but never really had anyone to play with until now. I've got them all assembled and glued so the only thing now is to get them painted up.

Only problem is what chapter tactics do I run them with?

I plan on using what I've got already as my core for the foreseeable future but will probably pick up a box or two in the next couple months. My main worry right now is having to buy a ton of stuff to get passable list since I've heard that SM are really formation based now.

>leaning towards UM currently

>> No.43441226

So I am allying in grey knights and inquisition and I was worried about how fragile GKs are for their wounds (terminator squad and brother captain, 8 wounds at T4 for 400pts). I was thinking about maximising psykic powers with daemonology and divination on the grandmaster with a biomancy psyker following them and praying I roll sanctuary/precognition/endurance.

What I also saw is that I could take a chimera for 55 points and seeing it has a capacity of 12 with no restriction on bulky termies. I could drive it 12" and use purifying flame to auto-hit everything in range, right? Or drive it 6 and hit them with the D. Would this be as cheesy as it sounds?

>> No.43441305

What chapters do you like? If you don't know your fluff, what colour schemes do you like?

>> No.43441324

Chimera are more likely to get destroyed than a Rhino, unless it's near a board edge and you know all the threats to it.
Do inquisition Chimera still allow you to fire 5 models from the top hatch?

>> No.43441336

Considering a Farsight army is chosen from the Tau codex, but with alternative warlord traits, relics and some added special rules, I don't think there's really anything stopping you from using the Taucurion (it is in the new codex, after all). The Marine supplements are still useable with the new SM codex, and that altered a lot more thing than the Tau book (Iyanden supplement isn't useable anymore, though, due to being rendered largely obsolete by the new Eldar codex and there technically no longer being a Codex: Eldar).

>> No.43441373

It's 12/10/10 to the rhinos 11/11/10 but the rhino has a special rule disallowing bulky units anyway. It has a fire portwith room for 5 on top but termies count as 2 models each so witchfires in the psychic phase then psycannon and storm bolter.

>> No.43441456

I'm just speaking from experience as an AM player, where my opponent is aware of the side armour on a Chimera and would use his Autocannon equivalents to nail them.
Wouldn't bulky be taken into account solely for transport capacity purposes? That's what it says in the book, so I'm sure you could squeeze five guys out of that tiny hatch.

>> No.43441471

I know a bit of the fluff.
>like IF but not the color scheme or the rules
>IH seem like they've got cool rules but not thrilled by plain black marines
>like UM fluff alright but rules/characters look pretty cool
>enjoy WS colors but not really into bikes

I guess one nagging worry about choosing a chapter tactic is making a force that doesn't ally well. I mean SM seem like they've got all their bases covered a bit already unless you go really specialized.

>> No.43441535

Oh wait, you're right. That only makes it sound cheesier. Is it possible to use a nova power on a model that would be snap-shotting? Technically it's not a template it just hits everything in range.

>> No.43441539


holy shit orkz arent fucking around anymore, is this the beginning of 40k endtimes?

>> No.43441577

Have you brought greater good to your neighboring systems yet?

>> No.43441581

FUCK i misunderstood the timeline nvm

>> No.43441583


The Beast is from the year M32.

>> No.43441591

You could always check out successors for IH, that's the good thing about liking first founding chapters.

For IH you have
>red talons, red
>sons of medusa, green
>steel confessors, steel
>iron lords, black with red legs
So there's a few options in there if you dislike the scheme but like the rules. With ultras you have a gorillion different successors to choose from as well, including a couple with white schemes.

Really though all marines ally well depending on who you wish to ally with. Assault based chapters work well with admech and guard but shooty ones can also bring the hurt at mid range while the allies hang back.

With that said ultras cover the most amount of ground with their doctrine system, so they're probably better for your indecisiveness. Look up the successors for schemes you like or different fluff and remember that you can make your own up too.

>> No.43441650

Skip tacticals and infiltrate honour guard or sternguard vets instead, and get a couple of scout squads (preferably with MM landspeeder storms)

>> No.43441654

Well hooray for that, maybe now the people over at the Advanced Tau Tactica can get over it and stop arguing in every single thread.

What am I saying - they'll never stop arguing.

>> No.43441710

If it has Assault, yes, you can move and fire it off.

>> No.43441736

Go just tl fusion or tl plasma for cheap firepower if you have little markerlight support. With plenty markerlights twin linking is a waste.

>> No.43441737

Not that guy but i'm running a 3 nob-bikers+deffkopta in a 200pts tournament and I'm quite raping (I must admit that my deffkopta passed 12 4+ saves in the last game but that's merely skill).

>> No.43441751

>rolling dice
Pick one, and only one.

>> No.43441763

Each of your models have 2 wounds per dude. One unlucky save and he's down a dude. It's a lot harsher on his part.

>> No.43441835

How am I doing?

Sisters of Battle - 750 points

Canoness (145 points)
- Eviscerator
- Combi-Plasma
- Rosarius
- Mantle of Ophelia

Battle sister squad (70 points)
- Heavy Flamer
Immolator (65 points)
- Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
- Dozer blade

Battle sister squad (70 points)
- Heavy Flamer
Immolator (65 points)
- Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
- Dozer blade

Dominion squad (105 points)
- (x4) Meltagun

Dominion squad (105 points)
- (x4) Meltagun

Exorcist (125 points)

>> No.43441843

Git gud scrub. I bet you haven't even mastered the Cantabrian d6 circle.

>> No.43442013

Is it worth loading up Veterans with 3 special weapons and carapace even if you want them to stay inside a Chimera? I'm sitting at 1000 points right now, unsure of what to upgrade, or change.

Sitting at exactly 1000 points.
* HQ (375 Total) *

Tank Commander - 30 Pts
Leman Russ Vanquisher - 135 Pts
>Knight Commander Pask - 40 Pts
>Lascannon - 10 Pts

Leman Russ Exterminator
>Lascannon - 10 Pts
>Multi-melta - 20 Pts

* Troops 1, 2, and 3 (145 each) *
Veteran Squad - 60 Pts
>2 Meltaguns - 20 Pts
>Chimera - 65 Pts

* Heavy Support 1 (120 total) *
Leman Russ Eradicator - 120 Pts

* Heavy Support 2 (70 total) *
Hydra Battery - 70 Pts

>> No.43442112

As a Daemons of Chaos player, how do I deal with Imperial knights?

I have little to no anti armor I can count on getting, and what I do have is getting sternguarded as priority one.

I've tried to tie it up but stomp makes it a very costly and not too effective afair.

Not to mention his repairing the damn thing with tech priests.

>> No.43442136

Before I suggest a ton of models you don't have, what do you have to work with?

>> No.43442141

Screamers, screamers and screamers?
If it's not the melee D version try give him some D-thirster?
Flying mc circus and kill everything else?
Summon so much shit that it can't stomp through all of them?

>> No.43442163

Tau had a great codex. CSM has one of the worst codexes in the game.

>> No.43442196

Wait what? Could you explain that one to me please?

>> No.43442232

So for the sake of discussion. what's the best way for a Necron player to deal with a Knight of any flavor in general? I know I've got a lot of anti-tank stuff but getting close without being blow to shit even for undead robots ain't easy. So do I just Godzilla/King Kong the thing with lots of flyers or what?

>> No.43442246

Oh god fuck off.

>> No.43442261

Nurgle Plaguebearers glance IKs on 6s, enough of those should take one out.

I'm talking from experience - I brought one IK alongside my SWs against a friend's Nurgle Daemons and he took it down fairly quickly

>> No.43442262

Okay so, I'm running an Ordo Xeno army as my lead detachment, and I wanna have an allied force running as my deathwatch, which chapter tactics should I roll with?

As a side note, my inquisition army is rather shooty (carapace armor And storm bolters for everyone !) So I want guess a more melee focused space marine tactic would be best, also keeping in mind that the inquisition does lack any real heavy support ( best it has is the landraider which is great but I find it lacks firepower to deal with most armies)

>> No.43442281

I know that. On all accounts the CSM deserve a complete overhaul. Will they get it? Had you asked me when 7th hit, I would have laughed. Or at least pointed you to the codices of the Orks and Dark Eldar. Had you asked me at the start of the year after the necron codex I would have said "oh fuck, they are gonna get a decurion style and it would be OP" and then KDK came out and now I am not so sure. But since you're asking me this now, I'm pointing to the Tau codex as a precedent of what you might expect out of the Chaos update.

If you think GW updates codices based on some kind of understanding of what *needs* to be done, then you must be extremely naive. Setting aside the thorny question of just what needs to be done and how, GW has had a weird track record of updating codices. Watching the trends these past two years alone should have highlighted that GW operates on a weird ass internal logic that doesn't really follow any pattern at all. Honestly, at this stage CSM could get an Orkified codex or a Necron style codex, a Tau half update or even something new entirely and I would not bat an eye. No, GW will do what GW wants. I'm simply pointing out that the Tau codex half update has happened and can happen again.

>> No.43442297

You will need a metric fuck ton if they are bringing in more than 1 Knight though. like 2 squads for every knight, at least.

Another option is to focus entirely on the mission. Take your losses as they come and ignore the knights as you scramble to get as many VPs as possible.

However if you want more specific tricks, we'll need to know what models you have to work with

>> No.43442331

I'm not naïve actually but thanks for that.

I don't think this will happen again. The reason they did this (imo) is because the sixth edition Tau codex was actually really well balanced, written and had viable options everywhere (inb4 "muh vespids" fuck off).

I was wondering how they were going to do this for a while and I was thinking how intimidating it would be to follow up on Vetlocks codex due to how fucking intricate it was. Basically, in trying to improve it they could very easily make it mono build or whatever.

But they didn't. Instead they added an extra layer to it, because they recognised a good codex that didn't really need arbitrary updates for no reason. Plus balance.

I strongly doubt they will do the same thing for CSM because, as much as we like to think so, GW aren't THAT retarded and probably know that CSM and nids suck right now, and don't give a shit because the models sell.

I say a new codex with new rules is far more likely. I think Tau was an exception due to how well the sixth edition codex was done.

>> No.43442341

Carapace armour is pretty boss. It'll save your skin sometimes, especially if the Chimera goes boom.

Another option is to give the remaining Veteran a heavy flamer to give the unit some extra utility. If not, a 3rd melta never hurts as if the Chimera explodes, you want to have as many meltas as possible.

>> No.43442346

Sorry, fogot to add I'm mono Slaanesh, pretty much every model and if it isn't I could make it. It's been working like a charm until I ran into that monster with stomp.

I also often pair them up with my CSM Slaanesh army where Forgefiends seems to be the only thing that has dented it so far, that shield is mighty effective when he got some tech priests nearby for healing.

>> No.43442357

Oh. I know it seems kind of unhelpful, but bring something other than mono Slaanesh or prepare to get stomped repeatedly.

>> No.43442361

>I say a new codex with new rules is far more likely. I think Tau was an exception due to how well the sixth edition codex was done.

This is my thinking too. GW is just experimenting with their options. I expect IG will get a similar treatment when their codex gets an update because it works.

I expect Orks, Nids and CSM to get an overhaul.

>> No.43442381

Take a 1st company whatever detachment of 4 sternguard units with imperial fists chapter tactics as your kill-team(s).

>> No.43442411

Ultras tactics could be more useful.

>> No.43442419

Slapped together a 2000 point list for my Thousand Sons that uses pretty much most models I have or want to field. I know this won't do shit in any competitive environment but I figure it's pretty solid for a casual meta that occasionally fields a cheese unit or two.

HQ (Joins Rubric squad): Sorc (60) + Terminator (25) + MoT (15) + Combi-Weapon (7) + 2 Mastery (50) + Spell Familiar (15) = 172
HQ: Daemon Prince (145) + DoT (15) + Wings (40) + Black Mace (45) + Power Armour (20) = 265

Troops: 16+1 Rubrics/Sorc = 426
Troops: 9+1 CSM/Champ (140) + MoT (20) + 2 Flamers (10) + Champ Powerfist (25) = 195

Elites: 4+1 Terminators/Champ (157) + Champ Dual LC (22) + 4x Dual LC (28) + MoT (25) = 232

Fast Attack: 2+1 Bikers/Champ (70) + 2 Meltaguns (20) = 90

Heavy Support: Forgefiend (H.AC) = 175
Heavy Support: Forgefiend (H.AC) = 175

Dedicated Transport (Termies): Land Raider (230) + Dirge Caster (5) = 235
Dedicated Transport (CSM): Rhino = 35

2000 points. If I want to downgrade it to 1850 and keep the same dynamic and strength of most units, I just downgrade the CSM to minimum size with 1 flamer and nothing else.

>> No.43442422

How many knights do you expect to be fighting?

>> No.43442440

If you are meaning stomped in terms of actual stomping from the titan, then yeah, you are probably right.

As for actual games, I've actully had a very plesent win rate with the army, there are so many gunlines out there and no one know how to deal with turn 2 mass charges anymore. It's delious.

>> No.43442450

Just the one so far.

It's backed up by vendettas and Sternguards through which kills what little armor I have.

It's isn't game breaking but I feel like I have no answer to that monster.

>> No.43442452

I have a question. What standard do you reckon GW does use when measuring the strength of a codex?

Consider for a moment that GW does not run tournaments nor do they have a hand/high level representative at big level tournaments. This means they have no feedback from the major tourney crowd, the ones that cry OP and nerf in equal measure. So where else do they get feedback on their rules or how do they know if a codex is broken and where is it broken?

>> No.43442454

Wait are you run and charge guy from two threads ago?

Eh anyway, try to go for the KOS with the lash of Slaanesh and Iron Arm. Or Slaanesh daemon prince, whatever. That should hurt.

>> No.43442463

If it's just one, ignore it. That's your best answer. Mono slaanesh is fast and the knight can only assault one thing at a time. Just watch the range on the stomps so don't cluster up too much. The battle cannon might make a mess of your lines, but it's dealable. Focus on removing his meat bags then scatter, claiming objectives as you do. There's only so much damage one knight can do anyways.

>> No.43442482

Maybe the dude who right to codexes frequent forums? I know ADB comes here so it might not be out of the question.

Plus, if I was going to write a codex, and wasn't a total hack, I would frequent review sites and see what was wrong and also play the army extensively myself. Just to get an idea.

Honestly I'm just guessing, but it seems logical.

>> No.43442488

>Wait are you run and charge guy from two threads ago?

Not that I know of.

As for the Keeper I'm doing that but it's an uphill battle, and a point gamble when his got str D weapons.

As for Lash I've had very little yield from that thing. even with lance it's still str 6 against AV 12, not a good investment imho.

>> No.43442492

*who writes the codexes

>> No.43442502

Well then I advise doing what the other guy suggested and run away. You are fast enough. If he gets close then just toss some summoned daemonettes at him and keep running.

>> No.43442514

Has anyone here ever bought the deathwing knights kit?

I kinda want one but I'm worried the arms are all in retarded poses. I can't tell if it's GW's assembly team or the kit itself from the pictures.

>> No.43442516

Iron arm would make it strength nine.

>> No.43442523

I don't have much advice other than get a keeper and two princes, put two greater gifts on each and swap the worse one for a greater blade. You want to hope for hellfire gaze/touch of uncreation with dark blessing or demonic resilience to compliment it.

>> No.43442525

It does. Here's another scenario, one that is admittedly rather cynical. They don't have to run tournaments. They have no stake in the tournament scene so they have no reason to write rules that cater to the tournament crowd. Instead, the write rules that they feel is enjoyable to them. They figure their primary audience are small isolated gaming groups anyways and any issues in the rules can be ironed by a talk and a vote, just like what they do in the office. So they write those kind of rules. And because of that, they have a different idea of just what is OP and what is not. Maybe in the office meta, CSM is sitting number 2 while Eldar lags behind at number 3 or something like that. I dunno. I've heard of weirder metas from my time here so anything is possible really. What is likely - if the codices are any judge - that they don't really take into account the tournament crowd or what's winning at major tournaments. My two cents.

>> No.43442542

Hmmm. Actually you may have convinced me of that, that does seem more likely.

>> No.43442545

The Deathwing knight kit is honestly one of the worst terminator kit I have assembled. They are all mono pose and the legs are specific to the robes as well. The shields are badass, but the maces and hands are all one piece so you're stuck with what you got until you start cutting. It's an abomination, worse than the standard assault terminators. At least the only sin those are guilty of is being bloody boring

>> No.43442546

I'm in the process of building my deathwing right now. Give me weapons and poses to put them in and I'll have some pictures for you tomorrow.

>> No.43442555

Yes but bolter drill with spec ammo is cooler.

>> No.43442613

Just to add some general advice, remember stomps happen at I-step 1 so if you can kill it in one round it won't stomp.

Don't forget how great psychic powers are, a keepers only trick isn't a chance to get invisibility but remember you can have him roll on melefic for cursed earth and summoning spam.

Daemon princes can roll on biomancy for buffs or it may be worth taking one power from telekinesis. 3/6 random powers are good at fucking up vehicles with good rolls on crush auto-penning and a haywire attack that makes ALL it's weapons get hot.

>> No.43442619

They don't know, because they don't care.

The way they play (and the way they think everyone else should play) the 'strength' of a codex doesn't really matter, since it's about creating a story on the battlefield with your miniatures and having an agreement with your opponent about what game you want to play.

The reason some codexes are 'strong' and some are 'weak' is because the design team has favourite armies that they spend a lot of time, creativity, and enthusiasm on, and armies that no one really cares for and only gets a perfunctory update.

Look at the Tau update in comparison to the Dark Eldar one - Tau get a bunch of new units, formations, an entire campaign supplement. Dark Eldar get a shitty new formation that's one of the few that's legitimately worse than a basic CAD.

So yeah, they don't get feedback because they believe they don't need it.

>> No.43442627

It's funny you say that, because in my local area Eldar are definitely one of the lowest (they recently lost a campaign to IG) whilst CSM are riding high, though admittedly the main players use the Heretics and Renegades list.

>> No.43442638

Sounds plausible weirdly enough. My local meta is 6 Nid players, an ork bloke, a 16 year old who plays BA and only cares about rule of cool (power to him) and a chick with pink space wolves who literally only plays wolves and thunderwolf cavalry. As the only Vanilla/Tau player I kinda find myself more levitating to horde control then high S low ap weaponry.

>> No.43442647

You are comparing a pre decurion codex to a post decurion codex and blaming it on favourite army syndrome, where as the much more likely and reasonable answer was the change in management and the subsequent decision of OP RULES SELL WOOO.

Because before necrons, 7ed edition was bland streamline edition.

>> No.43442650

If he's not using the CSM codex, he isn't playing "CSM". Clarification is needed as on the tabletop the source of the rules is what you're playing.

>> No.43442678

Awesome! I want to see what the commander looks like in a pose other than the "come at me bro" memewank pose.

I would like to see if some of the deathwing knights can be posed so their arms look less freakishly awkward. Maybe a kind of 'at-ease' pose?

All the pictures I've seen of them so far just have them looking like retarded action figures with their arms just holding weapons and shields out straight infront of them which just looks so awkward and unrealistic.

Could you possibly substitute the arms for the vanilla assault marines so they look less awkward?

>> No.43442691

Made a Death Guard for 40k using CSM rules list that follows their tactics and use of stuff. What yall think? Uses nearly every model from calth set so will not be very expensive.

Lord MoN, blight grenades, termie, chainfist, lightning claw 157

Chaos contemptor, nurgle, 2 butcher cannons 265

chaos termies x4 Mon 150

plague marines x5 2 melta, melta bomb 145
plague marines x5 2 melta, melta bomb 145
plague marines x5 2 melta, melta bomb 145
plague marines x5 2 melta, melta bomb 145
plague marines x5 2 flamer, melta bomb 135
plague marines x5 2 flamer, melta bomb 135

helldrake 170

vindicator siege shield, bolter 135
vindicator siege shield, bolter 135
vindicator siege shield, bolter 135

>> No.43442715

Tau hunter contingent 1850p

Hunter Cadre (Core, 1+)

-Drone controller, stimulant injector, Puretide chip, Command&Control node, Multi-spectrum sensor suite, Iridium armor

5 Strikers
5 Strikers
10 Kroots

3 Stealth suits
-Shas'vre with homing beacon

5 Marker drones

Sniper drone team
-3 Sniper drones & 1 spotter

Retaliation Cadre (Auxiliary 1/10)

-2xPlasma rifle, advanced targeting system

3 Crisis suits
-All with 2xFusion blaster

2 Crisis suits
-All with 2xFlamers
-4 Gun Drones

2 Crisis suits
-All with 2xPlasma rifles
-2 Gun drones

-Ion accelerator, twin-linked fusion blaster
-Stimulant injector, early warning override

3 Broadsides
-All with twin-linked plasma rifles
-All with advanced targeting systems

Infiltration cadre

4 Pathfinders
4 Pathfinders
4 Pathfinders

3 Stealth suits
-Shas'vre with homing beacon

3 Stealth suits
-Shas'vre with homing beacon


Total: 1850

Lots of small units to combine to get that +1 bs. Infiltration cadre + Retaliation cadre to give flexibility on deep strikes, either with pinpointing with homing beacons and/or allowing broadsides and/or riptide to stay on board and still get guaranteed mass deepstrikes. Buffmander to share all those buffs through contingent, sniper drone team + marker drones to get easy bs5 without commander.

>> No.43442823

It was bland streamline edition precisely -because- no one cared about the armies that were released soon after 7th dropped.

>> No.43442827

They use Renegades and Heretics to supplement proper CSM armies. It's pretty cool.

>> No.43442867

Yeah no. Frankly that makes no sense. All you are seeing is "Evul GeeDubya!" And not looking at the bigger picture.

It wasn't just favouritism, it was a complete change to codex layout and updates. If Dark Eldar had come out after necrons then the same thing would have happened to them. But it didn't. It was a shake up of management that brought in this change.

Following your logic, Dark Angels should have been another shit update because GW clearly didn't give a fuck about them for the longest time. Instead they got a decurion and three different FOCs.

But go ahead and keep thinking that GW is... I dunno, out to get you or something. That is illogical.

>> No.43442872

Any other Khorne Daemonkin players around?
Ive gotten an itch to try out Bloodcrushers recently, i know theyre squishy as fuck, but with the KDK buffs they put out fuckloads of harm.

I was thinking of just sitting a Juggerlord in front of the group, to save as much as possible, then LoS! the wounds around to get as much mileage as possible.


>> No.43442889

You take a few heralds and one of them takes the exaulted book reward to give the unit a possible 3++, also putting greater gifts on your heralds helps cause the re-roll invul one is crazy. You might have to ally them in.

>> No.43442900

Cool I'll try those out, I've actually already hacked the arm and hand off the DV deathwing sergeant and replaced them with a TH/SS combo and I have the shield arm looking quite normal I think, it was hard to do but that's more because it's not meant to be there really.

>> No.43442923

I dont have access to gifts as KDK, so i'd have to ally them in, which i would rather not.

>> No.43442949

Is there any tank unit/formation that allows you to outflank?

>> No.43442959

... codex?

>> No.43442977


Any. Just curiosity.

>> No.43442993

Blitz brigade can scout, so that gives them outflank. I think, I might get the rules mixed up.

>> No.43443024

Either way there are plenty of other ways to get outflanking vehicles in the ork codex.

>> No.43443058

Besides warlord traits?

>> No.43443109

>mogroks bossboyz formation

>> No.43443146

You know I guess it would be totally Op and Bullshit but I kind of want my all deepstrike on turn 1 Necron Formation. Well, at least it would be fluffy for the Necrons to do that but is there a way to balance that or is that just a retarded thing to ask.

>> No.43443310

I don't feel like buggies and kopters are all that great.
Especially when you're fighting tau who can get rid of cover saves.

>> No.43443321

Nice. Thanks for your input.

>> No.43443400

So /tg/, what's the optimal "amount of Markerlight guns to army points" ratio?

>> No.43443448

Solar Auxilia can take outflanking Leman Russ squadrons but that's 30k

>> No.43443501

Why does Grimnar suck so much? I mean, I love him as a character and he should win any fight easily, what with him having the greatest beard in the game. But ultimately, his melee is ok at best, his shooting is only as good as an average Wolf Lord and he doesn't do anything to actually give bonuses to the army.

It's not so much that he sucks, so much as there is no reason to bring him over Bjorn.

Bjorn is better in melee, better at shooting, actually has a rule to benefit the army (+1 to Seize) and is cheaper.

The only thing that I can see to make him better than Bjorn is that he is more mobile and is actually pretty survivable (espeically if you surround him with Hammernators)

But ultimately, I don't see him as anything more than a Point sink that will never make back more than you pour into him.

Is there any reason to bring him over Bjorn? And if there is, then how do I play him.

>> No.43443549

Hmmm yeah those bolter drills would be nice, rerolling dakka

>> No.43443566

Bump for this please, anyone?

>> No.43443575

SoB Dominions in Immolators, but that's an infantry fighting vehicle more than a tank.

>> No.43443689

>all with strength D weapons

>> No.43443698

where does the new Optimized Stealth Cadre fit in here?

>> No.43443742


with templates or 12" range, that absolutely need either dark eldar allies to deep strike or wave serpents to ferry them.

Windrider and Seer Council spam is the Eldar cheese, wraithguard are too expensive compared to the above two.

>> No.43443824

It's not per army point, it's per your units. You need to be able to toss 3-4 markers on a squad before you shoot it normally. Squads of 6-8 pathfinders are great for this. So simply figure out how you shoot stuff, then add markers.

Good bet, at 2k points you want 3 teams of 8 pathfinders. 1.5k would probably be 3 teams of 6. 1k is around 3 teams of 4, but even then it's all dependent on your list. If you run a single squad of 9 suits with 2 IC's attached as a target lock deathstar, you don't really need as many lights.

Nowhere, since most stuff that has rear armor 10-11 isn't hyper broken, sorry I mean played by WAAC fags. lemon russ are exception.

>> No.43443895

>(inb4 "muh vespids" fuck off)
Stay mad :^)

>> No.43443918

Don't play Tau you fucking retard I just hate Tau players that feel hard done by because Vespids aren't good.

>> No.43443928

So posing a question, can you run a mainly psyker focused SM chapter? Does such an option exist? I mainly play CSM (I know, laugh it up) and daemons so I dunno what the warp charge level and options for loyalist forces are like.

>> No.43443938

I didnt list any Tau formations because I havent seen them in action yet. The Stealth Cadre will likely be devastating to IG players though. Those rules are just fucking stupid.
Auto-targeting rear armor? Come the fuck on. Any Tau player fielding that outside of a tournament setting is a faggot. Which most Tau players are, so expect to see it if you play IG.

>> No.43443941

It's not the only shitty thing in our dex but we're supposed to suck it up cause "Muh borken taucurion"
Fuck you

>> No.43444000

As a Renegade player, I can tell you, that you're doing it right with those guns.

Jesus can Medusas fuck shit up sometimes. I'd recommend taking Bastion Breachers to take out his armour/the Knight better, because they are fantastic AT. The Thudd Guns are also good choices.

As for the Chaos Marines, you could probably go with some Rhinos or something for the Marines, because footslogging Marine=dead Marine. You probably don't need the Vindicator with all the guns you can have with the Renegades.

>> No.43444004

Youre a fucking dumbass. You're implying a codex is written and released in a ~3 month timeframe? Hah.
Its time for you fucking morons to admit that rules sell models, and GW uses this tactic wisely.

>inb4 hurrdurr why every new kit not OP then hurrdurr

If you dont understand whats going on then you are just straight up stupid.

>> No.43444013

Librarian council allow you to add as many psyker as you want to a SM army.

>> No.43444020

Purge+Ordnance Tyrant for Renegades and Heretics.

>> No.43444039

Oh god it's you.

I am not getting into an argument with you as you seem to like dragging threads down with your shitposting.

Stay fucking dumb.

>> No.43444045

>What standard do you reckon GW does use when measuring the strength of a codex?

They dont.

>> No.43444061

Shining spears fucking suck in the Eldar codex but you don't hear them bitching constantly about it.

So yes, suck it the fuck up.

>> No.43444094

That's because you hear them bitching about Banshee.

>> No.43444096

A max squad of 20 Plague Bearers is 190 points with upgraded Sgt. They average out to 4 glances per turn. But half or more of them will die every turn so keep that in mind.

>> No.43444100

They are actually pretty good now in formation. Not amazingly top tier, but good.

>> No.43444103


I don't really think you want to get into the whole "Wah wah these bad units ruin my Codex" game.

Tau as a whole are pretty blessed units-wise.
A couple units may be a bit overpriced but nothing is unusable to the degree that units from weaker Codexes are.

>> No.43444129

You'll have to be a bit of a idiot to charge 20 plaguebearers with your knight.

Unless its a castigator. That mofo will pretty much wipe them off the planet in single turn.

>> No.43444154

Reece and the Frontline guys, the Battlefoam guys, Natfka, and many others have all publicly mentioned the fact that GW uses rules to push kits.

Perhaps its time for you to consider the possibility.

>> No.43444171

Holy shit eat a dick you insufferable faggot.

>> No.43444172

That's nice dear. Run along now.

>> No.43444175

Make me

>> No.43444179

Check out the ork codex some time champ.

>> No.43444183

Don't bother he is a relentless shitposter.

>> No.43444184


>> No.43444188

I would fucking love to have Shining Spears in my IG codex instead of Rough Riders.

>> No.43444194

how can you explain the *orkanaughts, tau fliers, dark angel fliers when first released. vespid, new logan grimnar model, coldstar battlesuit, autarch.

there's a wealth of new kits with subpar or bad rules.
The truth is GW is just out of touch with what is balanced

>> No.43444197

Try allying with Kriegers and using death charger blokes.

>> No.43444201

Well, Plaguebearers can charge a Knight too. And if the Daemon player has a factory going, a Knight will be hard pressed to avoid it.

>> No.43444204

>faggot. Which most Tau players are
baka desu senpai :^)

>> No.43444206

They are a bit better yes but they are still hard in MEH tier.

>> No.43444220


Oh yeah those Flash Gitz and Orkanaughts are just the most broken things ever huh?

See, it'd make a lot more sense if GW did use rules to push models as that is an understandable if vile business practice.
But no the rules writers are just extremely incompetent and very prone to favored faction bias.

>> No.43444237

Anyone, seriously?

>> No.43444238

Poor babby
Did you get raped too hard by hunter contingent?

>> No.43444241


According to the fluff, it is a trick of mirrors. The unit is in reality behind the vehicle.

>> No.43444278

They didn't answer the question about target locks...

>> No.43444316


Is that the fluff for it?
That'd be kind of neat if it wasn't for the fact that the unit is still in front of the vehicle to begin with.

God damn it Battlewagons were my only recourse for getting across the board.
Now they get another hard counter against it.

>> No.43444335

But... if they get shot at they still get wounded as they are in front of the vehicle.

That is dumb.

>> No.43444336

>Any Tau player fielding that outside of a tournament setting is a faggot
Seeing how they are always in melta range anyway... it doesn't matter. Just now burst cannons can glance easier. Stay mad guard faggot.

Lower the rubric squad into 2 different squads, one that big is silly.
Champ in CSM squad needs power sword, then maybe melta bombs.
Lighting claws on termies are meh, take free power axes and a chain fist or two.
Make sure the LR has extra armor and a dozer blade, always.

>> No.43444343


Good? Naw. Not at as embarrassing as some shit out there? Sure.

>> No.43444369

"...Networking their stealth fields in a manoeuvre known as mesme’j’kaara– the wall of mirrors – the pilots of the Optimised Stealth Cadre utterly confound their foes’ senses and sensors alike, appearing to attack from one quarter while in truth moving in from the opposite direction altogether. By the time their prey has realised the nature of the trick, it is far too late – punishing fire rains down upon their unprotected flanks to the ruin of all."

>> No.43444383

Doesn't make it any less stupid

Silly captcha, bread is food too!

>> No.43444411

So, if we were to make a better and non-retarded mechanical representation of this fluff, what should the rule for Hall of Mirrors be?

>> No.43444426

You can redeploy 2d6" one time each turn.

>> No.43444487

Yes, you can. Farsight knows how to do Kauyon as well, so no problem using HCont with his book.

>> No.43444500

>What am I saying - they'll never stop arguing
Yep, there are always some hardheads who will not see the truth. Don't care much, as I don't play with them anyway.

>> No.43444502

make it like flicker jump

>> No.43444523

Why don't they give them fucking infinite range guns too, and just say they were right next to the target already. Until the next turn, when they're close enough to some other tau to make a supporting fire overwatch shot even though they apparently just teleported the length of the table.

Actually, fuck it, just put the models wherever you want them to be at any particular moment. Yes, I mad, because this is breaking THE fundamental principle of tabletop wargaming: that the models on the table ACTUALLY REPRESENT WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON.

>> No.43444543

Retarded as fuck and fanfiction-tier fluff to justify it.

>Literally *teleports behind u :^)*: the formation.

Fuck all the formations, the Kroot one was pathetic and killed the chance of any Kroot-love.

The only solace is that the new bandwagon hopping Taufags have to settle for those awful looking modern stealth-suits

>> No.43444558


>Units may choose to use their assault move/JSJ before shooting instead of after to let them get into a vehicle's side-arc and/or into Melta range
>If all units in the formation fire at a single enemy unit then that unit must make a Pinning test regardless of casualties.

Oh look now it's less bullshit but still relatively useful.

>> No.43444572

I do hope they FAQ it since while the RAW implication is pretty clear, a lot of people will arque against it because it's not directly stated in the rules and they consider it too good.

It's kind of weird that the rules of the formation and the fluff don't really match up very well. Fluffwise, the units in the formation are supposed to network their stealth fields to make themselves nearly invisible and create ghostly images that throw the enemy off, causing them to think the suits are in a completely different place than they actually are. Based on that you'd expect the formation to do something like force enemy to fire snapshots at them, or let them do a Warp Spider style move away from enemies when shot/assaulted (representing them not actually being where the enemy was attacking). Instead it gives them bonuses for shooting and lets them always hit rear armour (which probably represents them actually being behind the vehicle, but the range is still measured and and enemy shooting targeted to where the models are).

>> No.43444579

How does it work for daemons and Necrons? I think daemons don't see like we do, and only see things in thermal vision but for souls instead of heat. Crons should have some Cron science to protect them.

>> No.43444601

>Lower the rubric squad into 2 different squads, one that big is silly.
That used to be the case but I used to take my Sorc as a solo termiecide unit. I want to make him actually useful and fluffy, and someone on /tg/ told me to stick him in a squad of bodyguards. To do that best, I have a big blob of Rubrics and CSM for the 2 Troop tax.
>Champ in CSM squad needs power sword, then maybe melta bombs.
They are honestly only for the tax. To do this I need to change out some form of vital wargear from the DP or Sorc or make my bikers useless
>Lighting claws on termies are meh, take free power axes and a chain fist or two.
I tried that actually. I tried going slow CC many times but they never made their points back. I figured so many attacks with re-roll wound and AP3 might at least get them to kill something. I swear they never made their points back and I seem to roll constant 1s for their saves. It's frustrating
>Make sure the LR has extra armor and a dozer blade, always.
Same problem as number 2, just can't spare the points. It's a fairly rigid list as If I needed to change anything I'd have to remove wargear that makes a unit useless or a lot weaker and/or remove a unit I want/need completely.

>> No.43444624


>Darkstrider makes S6 Plasmasuits instant death T4 models from across the board now


>> No.43444630

If Ghostkeel can jam Iron sights then they can create false soul holograms.

>> No.43444637


Ghostkeel is produced in N'dras. A mysterious and almost empty Sept with strange readings. Once, it was a growing sept. For unknown reasons, the Ethereals ordered the Sept to be abandoned. There are only top secret research sites there.

>> No.43444640

>The reason they did this (imo) is because the sixth edition Tau codex was actually really well balanced, written and had viable options everywhere
So were Eldar and SM, but they still got better.

>> No.43444675

It doesn't, because he was listing the decurion-style formations (war convocation aside). You shold ask about Hunter Contingent, not OSC

>> No.43444686


>Have dim souls to begin with, giving Warp resistance
>Can create "fake souls" brighter than their own to trick Daemons

Man I know you're just handwaving/trolling but that's retarded.

>> No.43444695

>nothing is unusable
Vespids are pretty much unusable. Crisis suits with plasma do a better job. Shields drones are pathetic.

The rest is mostly ok.

>> No.43444717

I'm about to play against the new tau codex and i haven't played in a few years, what's a good elysian list to deal with them? should i go for a full plasma/flamer D-99?

>> No.43444720

I still wonder how it can jam iron sights.
>Fake soul holograms
Now we have cross the line where Tzeentch is confused. Get a tech priest, mekboy, cryptek, and a Warpsmith to do some research on how it jams things that shouldn't be jammed.
The Tau found the Hidden Fun Stuff?

>> No.43444749

So going by the recent fluff advances with the Tau (mainly all the shit the Farsight Enclaves brought about), it looks like the Ethereals may be experimenting with the Warp?

The most recent Tau Black Library stories has made it seem like they actually know about Chaos. I suppose the Ghostkeel might be the result of that?

It just works on them apparently. To be fair the fluff was never really consistent on what a Daemon can or can't perceive.

Sometimes blanks cannot be seen by them, other times they are massive voids and the Daemon's charge right at them.

As for Necrons, well honestly their tech should have something that counters it, but suspension of disbelief goes into play here I guess.

>> No.43444772


>most broken formation

>> No.43444781


3 groups of 3 vendettas

x2 vet squads with x3 meltaguns each

command squad with x4 meltaguns

8 sentry gun batteries with TL lascannons

>> No.43444792

It costs 5pts for Tau suits to get interceptor. You do the math if deep striking is a good tactic.

>> No.43444816


>18pts for Fleet Jump Infantry with a S5 AP3 gun
>12pts for a 4++ meatshield

I dunno man.
They certainly aren't the best but I'd hardly call them unusable.
They aren't Flash Gitz tier just yet.

>> No.43444827

Ethereals seem to be aware that Warp is a thing, at least. They also seem to be purposefully keeping it a secrt from the rest of the Tau. That's pretty much exactly what the Emperor was doing with the whole "Imperial Truth" thing, hoping to starve the Chaos Gods by denying them worshippers.

>> No.43444844

In other codexes they could be something good, but int Tau they aren't.
Stealth suits aren't bad either, but for their price I rather field something more useful.

These peeps (and Kroot) should have got some kind of small buff with our new codex; alas, GW (which is an American company now, as we were made known by another thread) didn't think so.

>> No.43444869

According to the fluff, the first prototypes of the "Ghosts of N’dras", were completed during the Third Sphere Expansion. Following the orders of Aun'Va himself, they were used to perform sabotages and assassinations against the Imperium. With the success of the Riptide, the Ghostkeel soon stopped being a secret. Recruitment of Ghostkeel pilots has begun across the empire, as has production of the battlesuits themselves.

>> No.43444871

>Vespids are pretty much unusable.
Confirmed netlist pleb
Even without the new formation that gives them infiltrate and other fun stuff, they were basically jump pack space marine scouts with str 5 ap 3 guns at 18 inches. Considering a scout is 11 points, and vespid is 18... which would you rather take?

Either the eldar D weapon spam one or the re-roll invul saves knight titan one

>> No.43444894

then how about a Marauder bomber to tank the shots and Tauros with heavy flamers?

>> No.43444895


See that always seemed like false equivalence to me.
The whole argument of "It'd be good in another Codex but it's a bad unit in this one."

Doesn't that mean it's still a decent unit on it's own?
It's just that people always want to use the best option instead of the ones considered subpar that push them down in utility.

>> No.43444898

>but int Tau they aren't
A book being full of choice units doesn't change the effectiveness of vespid.

Just means whoever's in charge of the rules is a retard.

>> No.43444901

>Were completed during the Third Sphere Expansion.

During the early stages of the Third Sphere Expansion.

>> No.43444904

They're not bad units. In fact they are pretty good. Just not compared to the rest of the codex.

>> No.43444923

>4+ save
>Ld 6

Yeah, 'basically marines'.

And I'd grab a scout all day before vespids. Camo cloaks, snipers/bazooka, ObjSec, BS4, ATSKNF... and the same 4+ armour.

>Just means whoever's in charge of the rules is a retard.
Totally agree

>considered subpar that push them down in utility.
Great, let's have warp talons instead of bikes for all CSM players, or they're pushing down warp talons' utility!

What's the point of having a tool when there's a better tool around?

>> No.43444960

>> No.43445011

>Doesn't mention devilfish breachers and stealthsuits :^)

>> No.43445020

>Great, let's have warp talons instead of bikes for all CSM players, or they're pushing down warp talons' utility!

The fact that you are comparing Vespid to Warp Talons speak much. One is a decent unit not taken because the codex has much better. The other is a useless overcosted unit that is shit even in a codex full of shit choices.

>> No.43445062


I would much rather take S5 AP3 scouts. Snipers are bad, by the way.

>> No.43445070

>Lists 3 items that cost points
Keep telling yourself that son. You wish you had 18 in range energy shotguns on jump pack guys. Vespid can easily get bs 4 or better, so that doesn't even matter. Only thing you've got going for you is ATSKNF, since objective secured doesn't matter when your BTFO.

>warp talons instead of bikes for all CSM players
Take warp talons
Take MOT on them
Take allied Daemones with book of true names
Use on warp talons
Warp talons have 2++

Sell your armies kid you don't know a fucking thing.

>> No.43445215


But the difference is is that Warp Talons aren't good to begin with.

>> No.43445229

That's a lot of points (minimum 190 for the warp talons, don't know about the daemons) to get... 16 S4 AP3 attacks on the charge. Gee whiz.

Oh, and a Blind hit.

>> No.43445233

I can't really see Vespids being particularly good in any codex. Maybe in a codex whwere they'd be troops and the only mobile units, but they suffer from the same problem most other low strenght ap3 units do.
They're extremely overspecialized. With one shot each they're not good at dealing with large units. With only ap3 they can't really hurt 2+ save models. Their strenght is too low to reliably threathen vehicles.
Only thing they can really do is kill Marines, particularly small units as they don't really have enough shots to inflict many casualities. Marines aren't really that hard to kill just by forcing saves, but GW tends to overvalue dedicated anti-Marine weapons. See also Stormtroopers and Thousand Sons, who have ap3 versions of lasguns and bolters and are generally considered very overpriced.
Of course with Tau the problem is excasperated by Battlesuits having plasma weapons that do everything Vespids do but better (more shots at close range, and they have ap2).

The formation makes them a bit better by giving them infiltrate and move through cover for free, but it's probably not enough to justify taking two units of them and 4 units of Kroot (if it was 1+ Vespids and 2+ Kroot it would at least be pretty easy to fit in most lists).

>> No.43445249

Hypothetically /tg/ if someone was selling a Forgeworld Warhound Titan for £100 (complete with shitty paint job) would you buy it? It looks like a steal but I dunno...

>> No.43445260

Eldar certainly weren't, they had some seriously bad options. It just so happened that their powerful stuff was some of the most powerful in the game.

Marines are the poster boys, they are ALWAYS going to get a big badass update.

>> No.43445278



Strip that shit and/or resell it afterwards if you don't want it.

>> No.43445304

Um... scouts?

>> No.43445344


Formations truly are a blight on the game. They couldve been used to create fluffy lists, but instead just accelerated the arms race into the stratosphere. And of course nudged people into buying razorbacks and possessed.

>> No.43445351

>tfw no battlesuit AI waifu.

>> No.43445367

I've actually started using it to run counts-as pre heresy Thousand Sons

>> No.43445381

Argh, turns out my friend is a retard and it's armourcast. The FW model is actually on auction at about £34 with 7 days left.

>> No.43445422

>cockpit open in the middle of a battlefield, infront of a bunch of marines
>looking straight ahead (in open cockpit) while firing gun to the side
>while playing tetris and space invader at the same time

>> No.43445606


Obviously she's invisible and making fun of them. She could be naked and the marines wouldn't notice her except for the deathly ray of energy.

>> No.43445719

Here are the rules for Tidewall Counterstrike Cadre this limited edition ruleset. It's awesome. http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx26/4jhatfi3ld/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-11/Screenshot_2015-11-03-09-30-58_zpsew3gkzog.png

>> No.43445856

It's less points than most other deathstars and will rip through anything except 2+ and vehicles with ease.

>I can't really see Vespids being particularly good in any codex.
You can't see a use for jump pack str 5 ap 3 guns at an 18 inch range? People claim veterans with plasma guns is incredible, this is basically the same thing and doesn't need a transport.

They will just die. In droves. To ignores cover tau. Take your scouts then.

>Formations truly are a blight on the game.
>No mention of broken superheavies, d-weapons, clearly broken models in each codex and invisibility being bullshit.
Right, perhaps it's the games rules that are the problem not the formation. Min maxers will always WAAC min max, just don't play those faggots.

>> No.43445880

which is better between ruststalkers and infiltrators?

>> No.43445892

Dude Tau will rape vespids too, what's your point?

If given the choice between scouts and vespids I would choose scouts. Vespids are weird and have no niche to fill.

>> No.43445894


>Opens his hatch just to call some dead Guela faggots

>> No.43445908

Neither. They are both Meh & Bleh.

And when they are good, in War Convocation, you have to use both anyway.

ps. Personally I love those spindly fuckers

>> No.43445956

>Eldar certainly weren't, they had some seriously bad options.

Nigga what? 6th edition was almost exactly the same as 7th. The same good units were good and the same bad units were bad. The only difference was in the broken shit. In 6th the basic transport was an unkillable rape box and in 7th it's the D and scatter lasers that are OP.

>> No.43446045

Why take scouts when gun drones are better at everything except melee?

>> No.43446077

Did you ever take night spinners? A fire prism in your heavy support slot instead of a wraithknight? Were Banshees good in any shape whatsoever? Striking Scorpions? Dark Reapers? Which were hilariously overpriced. Pathfinders, at 25ppm? Any of the Phoenix lords? Shinging Sp- ok they managed to get worse if anything.

A lot of stuff that wasn't even usable in a fluffy sense became viable in the new codex. Heck, I would even field Crimson hunters now. They rock.

>> No.43446098

Why take gun drones when you can take crisis suits? Why take crisis suits when you can take a riptide? What are you trying to say?

>> No.43446107

>6th edition was almost exactly the same as 7th.
Confirmed unable to read. I wonder how he shitposts so much then.

>> No.43446141

Should have 5++ and 4+ FnP

>> No.43446161

that's kind delightful

I wants it

>> No.43446163

That nearly every unit works when used correctly and in the right context.
Not everyone as to make a WAAC list and thus WAAC probably netlisting player, nobody want's to be one of those faggots.


Except pyrovores. They can't do anything right.

>> No.43446182

I guess that's true. I love scouts though, I swear by them.

>> No.43446197

They flammenwerfen things pretty well.

>> No.43446244

Argument invalid.
>Try to use pyrovore on ghostkeel
>ghostkeel says he can't
>Sad pyrovore

As do I, I have 40 of the bastards. Amazing they do well in melee.

>> No.43446268

>"hurr, tau are chinese expansionists, eldar are the weeaboo race"

>> No.43446271

>People claim veterans with plasma guns is incredible, this is basically the same thing and doesn't need a transport.
Plasmaguns are s7 ap2 rapid fire, though. They ignore terminators' saves, wound most MCs on 2+ or 3+, threathen most common vehicles and have twice the shots at 12''. They're good for a whole lot more than killing Marines.

>> No.43446275

So it's a fast moving wall of marine death?

>> No.43446318

6th edion had ridiculously good wave serpents and jetseer councils, plus good wraithknights, jetbikes and war spiders. Pretty much everything else was actually mediocre, though. Most aspect warriors were useless (except the aforementioned spiders, firedragons due to carrying meltaguns and avengers due to being the cheapest way to get more waveserpents), and the non-serpent vehicles weren't great either.

>> No.43446585

What is the profile for Chaos Infernal Relic Predator's Plasma Destroyer? Can't find it from the IA13. It would be nice if FW would put the weapon summaries in alphabetical order

>> No.43446727


Maybe I'm missing something but what Astra-Militarum player is letting them actually get close enough to use those weapons?

>> No.43446932

I need this clarified you can't take detachments of the same faction...so skitarii cannot ally with skitarii

but formations are detachments right?

are you not allowed to take a formation of skitarii with a main skitarii army?

>> No.43446959

Ally detachments are what you can't take.

>> No.43447049

So i'm starting up a Space Wolves force for my second army after being a filthy Tau player for the last year. Now I have no idea how to build a list for this army that isn't TWC spam, and i'd rather not use a deathstar against my friends, so I'd like some help in sorting my list out and pointing me in the right direction. I'll be playing against friends that have all the armies save for Eldar,Tyranids and Grey Knights, and our games are usually 2v2 with each army being composed of 1250 points.

>Rune Priest 60pts
>Psychic Hood 10pts (For use against my friend's Daemon army)
>Runic Armor 25pts
>Mastery Level 2 25pts
>Tempestas Discipline (Should I even take this? I know nothing of Psychic powers due to being Tau)

>Wolf Lord 105pts
>Armour of Russ 70pts
>Combi Melta 10pts
>Relic: Black Death 25pts
>Thunderwolf 50pts
Total 345pts

>9 Grey Hunters w/ 2 Flamer 136pts
>Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader 59 Points
>Chain Fist / Combi Plasma
>Wolf Standard 25pts
>Rhino 35pts

>9 Grey Hunters w/ 2 Flamer 136pts
>Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leader 59 Points
>Chain Fist / Combi Plasma
>Rhino 35pts
Total 485pts

=Fast Attack=
>Thunderwolf Cavalry - Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield 85pts
>Thunderwolf Cavalry - Frost Sword / Storm Shield 75pts
>Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader - Frost Sword / Power Fist 85pts
Total 245 pts

=Heavy Support=
>Long Fang Ancient - Bolt Pistol / Chain Sword 15pts
>2 Long Fang w/ Lazcannon 70pts
>3 Long Fangs w/ Missile Launcher 90pts
Total 175pts

Comes out to 1250 points on the dot.

So again, I have no idea if I just made a complete sham of a SW list. I'v gone through the codex once and googled a few other lists in order to come up with the one above. I welcome any and all C&C because I really want to start up this army, but I'v never built a Sphees Mehreen army so I have no idea what i'm doing with these things.

>> No.43447109

Tempestas is a decent psychic discipline, worth trying out anyway. Jaws of the world wolf fucks orks and necrons terribly.

>> No.43447120

Dunno anything about yiffs, but I do know you can't put terminators in Rhino...

>> No.43447147

>Were Banshees good in any shape whatsoever?

And they are now? Overwatch negation don't count for shit when your ability to reach combat is exactly the same. Scorpions are still sitting in the same place and while reapers got better, spears got even worse.

>Any of the Phoenix lords?

Still every bit the overpriced dead ends they've been for fuck knows how long. Are you saying Baharoth losing his invul and Karandras getting a poorly written rule that doesn't integrate with the new Shadowstrike rule us game changing stuff? Only Asurmen got better and he still has no purpose.

>> No.43447169

Combat squads son.

>> No.43447184

>tau playing with the warp
Whoa whoa, can someone bring me up to speed on this?

I always wondered if they had any idea of what it was or what daemons were. Like they have humans living under them, what if one could prove they were psychic? Would the tau field human psykers as auxiliaries?

I always kind of liked the idea of tau cultivating a culture of human psykers as some kind of Mage utopia (until chaos fucks everyone)

>> No.43447248

I'll try it out then, as orks and necrons are what i'm usually against.

Noted, I'v changed them to...

>Wolf Guard Pack Leaders w/ Frost Sword / Combi Plasma 54pts

I'v got 10 points open now. Stick a Fenrisian wolf with my Wolf Lord maybe?

>> No.43447309

Banshees are far better and can reach combat. And can kill shit there too. In formation they seriously lay down the hurt.

Same with these guys. Scorpions rock now. Their exarch got even scarier and their mandiblasters are good now. Plus they get stealth and shrouded until they enter combat for the first time.

Phoenix Lords are really good, while not being top tier heroes. Your list will not suffer for taking them.

Is this you trying to make out that everything I said was wrong and everything is just as shit and herp a derp? Because everything is at least usable now. With the exception of storm guardians and maybe shining spears.

>> No.43447369

Can I run what is pictured as Ravenwing Land Speeders. The description says they are Space Marines but besides small icons I do not see a big difference between them and the one on GW site.

I know I still need to get a Darkshroud since that models so different.

>> No.43447376

150 points for ten dudes, 4+ save, 3 plasma guns (that need to be at 12 inches, so need transport) and then useless las guns


154 points for 7 vespid plus leader, range 18 str 5 ap 3 guns on jump packs and higher toughness.

Tau don't have problems killing 2+ save stuff, but ap 3? They don't have a lot of that.

>> No.43447378

Space Wolves son

>> No.43447499

You have already asked this and we have already answered. There is no difference between Ravenwing Landspeeder and normal ones.

>> No.43447531

If you have lots of ap2 already, you don't really need weapons specifically to deal with 3+ saves. Vespids are admittably good at that role, but that's all they do.

I wish they were good, since I like the auxillaries, but I don't really see any point in taking them instead of, say battlesuits (which are more expensive, but also more durable, have better weapons and can do the jump-shoot-jump thing to duck out of los after firing). Plus, Vespids are fast attack and that's where all the best sources of markerlights are, which makes it hard to justify using a FA slot for a very niche unit when you could take more markerlights instead (Tau army is pretty much build around markerlights, and considering almost all markerlight carriers are extremely fragile, you want as many units with them as possible).

>> No.43447548

There is absolutely no problem in doing so and they are, in fact, the exact same model. The GW site is just designed for minimal intelligence and maximum copyright protection, nothing else.

>> No.43447554


>You have already asked this


This is my first time asking, before I was asking about an Eldar army.

>> No.43447587

There there has been an extraordinary influx of new RW players in the last days, all with the same question.

>> No.43447589

You can't take an allied detachment of the same faction as your primary detachment.
That is literally the *only* restriction on detachment army building (apart from as-of-yet non-existent restrictions in the detachments themselves)

>> No.43447595

>Banshees are far better and can reach combat

Their capacity to reach combat has not changed. +3 inches to charge is not getting you across a board. They are still free first blood to any opponent with a working brain. Scorpions buffs failed to compensate the fact their best gimmick is outflanking a wave serpent for side armour pens. They're my favourite aspect and they still achieve nothing outside of driving their WS in min squads.

>Phoenix Lords are really good

Just fuck off.

>Your list will not suffer for taking them.

Few things hurt a list more than point sink HQs that can't possibly make their points back. What kind of pleb is going to buy a PL when he can buy another aspect squad that can actually achieve something?

>> No.43447647

Vespid would be worthwhile if they could be taken as troops rather than Fast Attack. It prevents them from competing for space and gives them an extra role in nabbing objectives

>> No.43447908

Oh I recognise you. You are the guy who seems to have a zealous hatred of the banshees and Phoenix Lords. Literally anybody who says anything positive about them gets your copy paste speech on "durr 3" don't save dem, fuck off with Phoenix lords hurr"

Seriously, I have seen you trot the same shit out time and time again on this board to the point where it looks like you are reading off of a cue card.

Banshees do fine for me as I stick them to cover and they get guaranteed 9" runs, 12" if I stick Jain Zar in with them (who is a beast, sorry if that triggered you). Scorpions hit hard enough to slap MEQ off of objectives and the exarch is fucking stupid now.

But whatever man. I was arguing that the Eldar codex buffed a lot of units that were previously terrible. Because it did. Except Shining Spears. And jetseer council, but that needed a nerf.

>> No.43448069

Hey, Phoenix Lords can actually be good, although usually require pretty gimmicky lists. One of my friends sometimes runs Jain Zar + Karandras + the DE Grotesque formation. It's not the most competive chose (you could use those points to buy Wraithknights and scatterbikes), but it's a big unit that can deepstrike without scatter (since the formation includes a Haemoncules who can get a WWP), consists mostly of multiwound t5 models, has stealth and shrouded from Karandras and lowers enemy's ws an i in close combat. It's durable and can put a lot of hurt on nearly anything, so it's hardly an unviable unit.
Also Bharrot is pretty often used in a Seer Council to give them fearless and hit and run, although he dos keep them from turboboosting.

Yeah. If they were troops they'd be very good, mostly because, aside from Farsight, the Tau lack mobile troops (Kroot can infltrate or outflank, but once they're on the board they're not very mobile, especially if you want to use the sniper rifles), and they'd now be competing only againt Kroot and Firewarriors instead of all the markerlights.

>> No.43448271

Well the new formation solves many of those issues. You get snipers and you get vespid and everything's better. Only reason I didn't take my vespid before was my 22 pathfinders had to be on the field.

I'd rather not them be troops, but I would like a massive alien auxiliary formation that gave everything objective secured. Then again kroot hounds and krootox are still not their own units...

>> No.43448484

Since the new meta for this edition looks likes lets give everyone on my army cover saves while ignoring everyone else's. As a Necron player how would built your army to counter that? I was think of blast marker cover ignoring 3+ armor Tomb Blades and Flamer Destroyer Lords and lots of Wraiths. I think using cover is still your best bet but that's move to get the other guy to burn tokens than for the cover save.

Also, is running a Destroyer Lord solo the best option for the model and then making it almost impossible to kill like a 'harassment Carifex' or do you have other good build ideas for the DL?

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