Quantcast
[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / g / ic / jp / lit / sci / tg / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports / report a bug ] [ 4plebs / archived.moe / rbt ]

Due to resource constraints, /g/ and /tg/ will no longer be archived or available. Other archivers continue to archive these boards.Become a Patron!

/tg/ - Traditional Games


View post   

[ Toggle deleted replies ]
[ERROR] No.42388334 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What would it take for the Imperium to destroy one of these things?

>> No.42388422

>>42388334
The need for Games Workshop to establish a new chapter as "super badass."

>> No.42388444

>>42388334
A good, decent, well-stocked Craftworld?
Most of a sector fleet. If not a whole sector fleet.

>> No.42388446

>>42388334
In bl fluff a sm chapter with imperial guard + navy support will do the good quite nicely

>> No.42388447

Isn't it essentially another starship? Couldn't the Imperial Navy just surround it and bombard it to smithereens?

>> No.42388448

>>42388334
A couple virus bombs

>> No.42388455

>>42388422
.... is this a reference to the Ultrasmurfs? Did they already do it?

>> No.42388859

>>42388447
They are starships, but they're absolutely fuckhuge starships and they're usually insanely well protected. Those tiny ships next to them are Frigates or Crusiers.

>> No.42389468

A whole lot of plot armor.

>> No.42391087

>>42388444
According to various fluff, your standard Craftworld is a flying fortress/carrier housing millions of soldiers and will eat a sector fleet for lunch.

According to Gav Thorpe, they (specifically Alaitoc) have got maybe 20,000 combat capable dudes and >>42388446 does the trick just fine.

>> No.42391666

>>42391087
>According to Gav Thorpe, they (specifically Alaitoc) have got maybe 20,000 combat capable dudes

The 7th edition Craftworld Codex says that billions of Eldar lived on Iyanden before the Tyranid onslaught.

>> No.42391724

>>42391087
This is admittedly the same fluff that has Leman Russes lying somewhere between papier mache and neutronium. I don't think GW knows anything about maths outside of, maybe, probabilities.

>> No.42391759

>>42388447
They're more on the magnitude of planets in size. It would take a while to destroy them from the outside.

It is far easier to depopulate a Craftworld than to destroy one. Unless you can somehow set a chain reaction explosion from the engines.

>> No.42391892

>>42391666
Again, Iyanden was the greatest and most populated Craftworld. It's the exception that proves the rule.

>> No.42392222

>>42391892
>Again, Iyanden was the greatest and most populated Craftworld. It's the exception that proves the rule.

Not saying Iyanden was typical of the great Craftworlds, but rather consider what that figure means. If Iyanden's standing army pre-Kraken was a mere 1 percent of its population, that means 10 million Eldar fighting troops, and at least a million aspect warriors.

Also consider that the entire population was armed to fight off Kraken - it means that hundreds of millions of Eldar troops weren't enough to fight off the Tyranids in a static battle of attrition.

Not even the Imperial Guard can easily throw around a billion soldiers for a single campaign. I think GW needs to take a good look at the ridiculously low numbers of troops listed in climactic campaigns in most parts of the fluff.

>> No.42393651

>>42388334
A reason

>> No.42393676

>>42388455
No, 3 of their Successor Chapters did it 3 different times.

>> No.42393701

>>42392222
You're forgetting a few things.

1. Alaitoc is a jobber. They have a history of jobbing.
2. Alaitoc is the Craftworld so strict that people leave it and never come back on a regular basis. 20,000 combat troops, assuming a very generous 1% of the population figure, which probably isn't standard for the Craftworld Eldar, would still mean that only 2 million Eldar live on the Craftworld. It's not a planet at that point, it's a medium-sized city.
3. Space Marines.

>> No.42393747

>>42393651
Brutal

>> No.42393844

>>42393747
Honestly, the Imperium does not feel threatened by outside enemies (Xenos and chaos alike).
What they fear, what their entire system is built to prevent, is a rebelion.They are desperate to keep power split in such a way that nobody ever gets to be independant enough to split away from Imperium.
They could cut out so much shit, but cut cuting it out would make another large scale rebelion like Horus Heresy possible.
So evryone gets biurocracy up the ass, where waiting years or even decades for a shodier version of something you really need right now is commonplace.

>> No.42393960

Pretty sure there were BFG rules for craftworlds, so if you add on the almost definite escorting fleet, figure it out yourselves.

>> No.42394012

>>42388334
About a thousand of these guys.

>> No.42394427

>>42391087
According to Gav "I don't work for GW anymore and when I did, it was not my job to make good rules" Thorpe, 2e fluff is still a thing, Eldar didn't reincarnate naturally (meaning they were even shittier than human psykers) and forgot all about their gods, thinking they died during the War in Heaven.

He's free to think what ever he likes, he's no longer in charge of anything.

>> No.42394583

>>42391759
What if they use that ship used to destroy planets that can't be saved from heresy?

>> No.42394622

>>42394427
>He's free to think what ever he likes, he's no longer in charge of anything.

BL is a division of GW so he still works GW. What he writes in the novels are canon. So that's that.

>forgot all about their gods, thinking they died during the War in Heaven.

Naturally, Asuryan ordered the gods to disconnect from mortal realm and ordered them to never again communicate with the Eldar.

>> No.42394792

>>42394583
You mean exterminatus? Not a ship, a procedure, usually using either specialized torpedoes (that a point defense system would shoot down) or concentrated lance fire (which the shields eat). On top of a decent, healthy craft world having 3-4 full on Eldar fleets surrounding it at all times, and in fluff, ship combat with the Eldar is an absolute nightmare. About the only thing worse is Necrons.

>> No.42394924

Theoretically they could just enter the warp close enough to one and all the Eldar will get Daemon'd instantly.

>> No.42395015

>>42394924
First off, no.
Second, Eldar can traverse the warp safely. As safely as human ships, anyway.
They don't because the Webway is vastly better, but if they can build man-sized teleporter suits with the needed shielding they can build a warp drive with the needed shielding.

>> No.42395052

>>42395015
>Second, Eldar can traverse the warp safely. As safely as human ships, anyway.

Bullshit.

"Eldar do not, indeed cannot, use W'arp travel in the same way as the Imperium"

-Rulebook 6th ED (Craftworld Eldar section).

>> No.42395069

>>42395052
l'll post all of it.

>> No.42395236

>>42395052
IIRC, they don't like it, they are scared shitless of it, and they are some sort of demon candy-shop-neon-sign when they enter the warp.
Also, there are no Eldar Navigators so they wouldn't even know how to sail through it.

>> No.42395457

>>42393701
> 3. Space Marines.

This. As long as it happens offscreen, there is nothing that Space Marines cannot do.

Remember that, in fluff, a force of 100 space marines can, using only the ammunition that they carry on their person and without any further support from orbit or the imperial guard, conquer a planet.

1000 space marines, with just the resources on their battle barge, can re-take an entire sector from populated worlds, orks, and various smal xeno empires.

As long as it happens offscreen, that is. Onscreen, 100 space marines vs 1000 orks ends with at least a handful of those space marines biting it to bad luck and massed fire, so there is no way they could fight a whole planet of orks without help.

>> No.42395521

>>42395069
Key phrase in that is "in the same way"
>"Using a compact warp-generator housed within their armored backpack, Warp Spiders can make short Warp jumps…"
Codex Eldar, 6th edition

Eldar can into the Warp. How they do it uses different tech, but when someone posts "JUST ACTIVATE A WARP DRIVE CLOSE BY" when Eldar infantry grade artillery is a fucking warp generator in the shape of a gun, that's bullshit. When the key element of one of their units is "making jumps through the warp", it's bullshit.

>> No.42395533

>>42395236
>Also, there are no Eldar Navigators so they wouldn't even know how to sail through it.
Kroot don't have Navigators either and they get through it just fine. The Imperium needing Navigators =! everyone needs navigators

>> No.42395553

>>42395521
>>"Using a compact warp-generator housed within their armored backpack, Warp Spiders can make short Warp jumps…"

I don't see any mention of ships. It's just a specifically trained aspect warrior making a quick jumps through the warp.

What I am saying is bullshit that the Eldar ships can traverse the Warp safely. It's impossible for them to do so.

>> No.42395559

>>42394012

Based Invaders

>> No.42395573

>>42395533
.....

The Kroots do navigate through the Warp. Their Warpspheres navigate towards worlds with a lot life/biomass.

>> No.42395605

>>42391724
>I don't think GW knows anything about maths outside of, maybe, probabilities.

Have you played 40k? I very much doubt they even know that.

Not to just pick on them in particular, it's pretty much everyone in the industry.

It was more than a decade before White Wolf employed anyone with math or stats training despite being based right by Georgia Tech where an army or neckbeards waited to help them clean up their system.

FASA was famously innumerate, hence the endless parade of charts and lookup tables in their games. CGL seems to be slowly cleaning that up.

FFG is a mixed bag. Their RPGs are a mess but the minis games are statistically speaking very well balanced.

The first gaming company that really took stats seriously IMO was WotC, which hired psychology professors to make MtG maximally addictive back in the very early 90's.

And GURPS, of course, where you have academics writing supplements and a particle physicist as the Line Editor. Given the way they operate, it kind of has to be that way.

>> No.42395607

>>42395573

Yeah. Bit they don't need special psykers based on the astronomicon as a lighthouse to do it. Only the Imperium leans on that crutch.

>> No.42395616

>>42393844
Pretty much. On the whole even chaos didn't cause as much damage since the 35ks as a whole segmentum going up in flames for completely non-chaos related rebellions.

>> No.42395622

>>42395607
And that makes their warp travel very limited.

>> No.42395637

>>42395616
>>42393844
That's a massive amount of bullshit from you both that has no basis in lore at all.

>> No.42395654

>>42395533
Imperium doesn't "need" navigators, but neither does your car "need" a clear windshield.

Also, Kroot do have psychic shapers, which would help them in making some sense of the warp. Probably not as much as a Navigator, but better than nothing.

>>42395553
In Farseer the Eldar has to employ a rogue trader to take them to their destination, and along the way the ship got massively hammered by daemons, and even the navigator noted the massive beacons the Eldar aboard were, clearly luring the daemons in.

>> No.42395726

>>42395236
This is pretty much the exact explanation given in older lore. Almost every Eldar codex up to the current one has said that their ships can travel through the warp, but it's slow/difficult and dangerous for them, so generally they don't.

Regarding the guy you're replying to though, I must once again question why Carnac is posting in a thread about a faction he claims to have no interest in.

>> No.42395758

>>42395726
>Almost every Eldar codex up to the current one has said that their ships can travel through the warp

Pages? Quotes?

>> No.42395783

>>42395607
Navigators don't even actually NEED the astronomican. It's just that doing without it is considered mighty heretical and it's a lot more complicated.

>>42395654
The Imperium does need navigators though. You can go through the warp without one with short jumps of 4-5 light years but that would slow the traffic routes down considerably. It would be like saying that from now on, you can no longer use a car, but bikes still exist. Very helpful.

>even the navigator noted the massive beacons the Eldar aboard were, clearly luring the daemons in.
in that same book the Eldar actually admits to being scared shitless of going through the warp. They call it "hell" in eldar.

>> No.42395792

>>42395758
>Though many Eldar spacecraft can travel through the Warp itself, it is a difficult and dangerous process – to risk a craftworld in such a way would be to carry a candle into a storm of darkness.

Nevermind. Found it

>> No.42395796

>>42395654
>Also, Kroot do have psychic shapers, which would help them in making some sense of the warp.
Yeah, it's too bad the Eldar don't have any trained psykers, much less ones adept at reading the currents and flow of the Warp, which could possibly let them scry the future. Real shame.
>>42395553
>It's impossible for them to do so.
The way humans do.
They have warp generators. They have warp shielding. They regularly shoot the warp at people with a mechanical failure rate of zero. They regularly open up portals to the warp, and every piece of tech they have has a psychic component (and thus makes use of the Warp). They travel through the warp to pin point locations without arriving weeks before they left. A craft world was stuck in the Eye of Terror for several thousand years and it doesn't have the daemonic possession rule. To say that an Eldar ship cannot be build to travel through the warp with a measure of safety is insane.

>> No.42395827

>>42395796
>Eye of Terror for several thousand years and it doesn't have the daemonic possession rule.

You mean the Craftworld whose Eldar speak in only whispers and refuse to remove their masks in the presence of other Eldar? Sounds legit.

>> No.42395834

>>42395796
Damn dude, we're arguing about non-existing space elves going through a non-existing immaterial realm, calm the fuck down.

>> No.42395839

>>42388334

According to fluff Eldar tech is so superior their fleet would completely slaughter Imperial fleet.

Their advantage in space would be far greater than on the ground.

It would be like F-22 vs Korean War planes.

>> No.42395848

>>42395827
Ulthwe does that? Where did you get that info?

>> No.42395867

>>42395848
Ulthwe isn't struck in the Eye of Terror. It wanders near it. It's like saying Cadia is in the eye.

I was referring to Craftworld Altansar

>> No.42395907

>>42395867
I never even heard of those, thanks anon.

>> No.42395926

>>42395758

2e codex page 6:
>Eldar spacecraft can travel through the warp using their warp drives, although this is a slow and dangerous process for them. Unlike humans, the Eldar have no Navigators who can steer through warp space. Furthermore, the daemons of the warp are attracted far more strongly to vibrant Eldar spirits than to the dull, shadowy minds of men. As a result of these factors the Eldar travel infrequently to places that lie more than a few light years from their Webway exits.

4e codex page 13:
>Eldar spacecraft can travel through the Warp itself, although this is a slow and dangerous process for them. As a result the Eldar travel infrequently to places that lie more than a few light years from their webway portals.

6e codex page 12:
>Though most Eldar spacecraft can travel through the Warp itself, it is a difficult and dangerous process for them - to risk a craftworld in such a way would be to throw a candle into a storm and hope for its flame to stay alight. As a result, the Eldar travel infrequently to places that lie more than a few light years from the safety of their webway portals.

7e codex page 8:
>Though many Eldar spacecraft can travel through the Warp itself, it is a difficult and dangerous process - to risk a craftworld in such a way would be to carry a candle into a storm of darkness.

Possibly somewhere in the 3e books too, these are just the ones I could remember and find easily.

>> No.42395938

>>42395827
If my ancestral home spent thousands of years in the hell dimension I'm pretty sure I would have a lot of uncomfortable taboos as well.

It's great fluff, and I wish it was developed more, but at the same time I know as soon as it is they'll make it retarded.

>> No.42395968

>>42395926
"Unlike humans, the Eldar have no Navigators who can steer through warp space"

Well, It looks we have a rebuttal to this posts (>>42395796) sarcasm.

>> No.42396004

>>42395834
I'm perfectly calm, Dude. I'm just getting real SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF THESE FUCKING CHICKEN SHIT ANONS! I DIDN'T WATCH ALL THOSE BOYS GIVE THEIR LIVES FOR OVER IN VIETNAM TO PUT UP WITH THIS!
…While it is true that we are discussing fiction, I think that it is appropriate to take in mind what has been rewritten as the rules of said fiction, and not simply make things up to suit our beliefs.
>>42395827
Yes, that one. No worse than the Dark Kin, at least.

>> No.42396035

>>42395968
No where did I say they have navigators.
Just that they have psykers capable of navigating the warp. Like the Kroot. The original came was "they don't have navigators so they wouldn't even know how"
Now, you can argue that they can't do it as well as a navigator, and I'll give you that. It wouldn't be blind, though. Because they have psykers. Like the kroot.

>> No.42396114

>>42388334
Logically, an entire segmentum fleet, maybe more. In order to sustain warfare on the scale of 40K a craftworld must have a population in the high billions and the space to sustain them, and as it's environment is controllable it is the worst sort of nightmare to board - commanders have to prepare for their oxygen to get ripped away and the like.

In space it should be even harder. Corsair fleets sometimes number in the area of 85,000 ships and craftworld fleets are generally bigger, and if Gothic taught me anything, it's that Eldar shit on the Imperium ship-to-ship.

An offscreen chapter of Marines can probably kill a minor craftworld, but offscreen Marines should be ignored as they're never consistent with focused Marine fluff.

>> No.42396180

>>42396035
Just let humans have one thing at which they out-do the Eldar, even though it's through creating a race of mutants with a third eye in their forehead.

>> No.42396188

>>42388422

This.

It's always "needs of plot". Whether the population of a craftworld is millions or billions depends on the writer. How militarized they are is also a literary decision. There's so much contradictory canon that you can justify anything you decide makes sense in your setting.

In my setting, a typical craftworld carries a few billion Eldar. The very biggest ones like Iyanden carry tens of billions, and the very smallest carry millions.

I use a power law. Let's start with >>42391666 and put ~30 billion formerly on Iyanden (RIP). The other Big Craftworlds (Alaitoc, Biel-tan, Saim-Hann, Ulthwé) would all have about three billion (1-10 billion) each.

Then I'd fluff about 16 lesser craftworlds as having populations between 100 million and 1 billion. Dozens (about 64) craftworlds have a population of ten to one hundred million. Plus hundreds of outposts and very minor craftworlds with a few million people each.

Total craftworld population across the galaxy is about 50 billion, smaller than a single Hive World but still significant. To me, that's the low option.

Adjust numbers up and down to taste. If you want a trillion Craftworld Eldar, which spread over a Galaxy means they're still pretty close to extinction, then you use the same formulas and work backwards. Each big craftworld has 150 billion people on it, lesser ones have 15 billion, the fringe ones have a billion each, and over a thousand very minor craftworlds and outposts have populations in the millions.

That would still give you about a million humans for every Eldar.

(1/2)

>> No.42396212

>>42396114
>and if Gothic taught me anything, it's that Eldar shit on the Imperium ship-to-ship.

How do Eldar ships compare to Necron ships?

>> No.42396256

>>42396180
I'm totally doing that. Navigators are super good at navigating. Especially the ones that weren't inbred.
But a seer could manage, if he had to, though it'd be better to have a navigator. I'm pretty sure any human psyker can as well (I know Typhon at least got Morty to believe that). You can do it to some degree of accuracy with a trained non-navigator, is the point.
Long and short
>Navigators=super good
>Other psykers=you'll get by, but it's better to have a navigator
Fair?

>> No.42396289

Phalanax + sector fleet vs Eldar Craftworld, who would win?

>> No.42396296

>>42396256
Maybe there are eldar who, with training and experience, could be good navigators. But there will never *be* an eldar with the required training and experience because trying to acquire it would be suicidal and no one is trying to attain it.

>> No.42396300

>>42396289
I'm sure that Fisters would find a way to fuck it up and get rescued by Ultramarines

>> No.42396332

>>42396256
>any human psyker
No. Staring into the warp makes one insane, and even navigators have to be careful not to stare too far and too deep into it. It is literally the stuff of nightmares and even navigators don't perceive it in its raw form. The eye allows them to filter it and their altered brains transform the image into something the mind can understand, like a sea of sorts. Other races, maybe with sufficient training they can learn to see currents and not go insane, I'll leave that in the middle.

>> No.42396403

>>42396188

This fits surprisingly well. Craftworlds can still be nearly empty even with these huge numbers, because you can fit more people into a volume than smearing them over an area.

Just by way of comparison, assume a human requires 100 cubic meters of space, including infrastructure and a biome. Current pop density is three times that, but this includes oceans that are mostly uninhabited.

The earth would have a total population capacity of 51 billion. But if you dig into the planet and fill its entire volume, that rises to a quadrillion people, or one thousand trillion people.

Craftworlds are described as "continent-sized disk with multiple levels". Using the same population density, an average continent (let's pick North America) can fit a maximum of two and a half billion Eldar per level. With only a few levels, you can have billions and yet still have a dying, mostly-empty craftworld.

If accept my assumptions and math, the total remaining CE pop is one trillion. Most of that (60%) is concentrated onto one of the 4-5 very big craftworlds, with populations of over a hundred billion. Those are your outliers.

A typical craftworld is 1-10 billion, with a few rising up into the tens of billions. That's a third of your overall population. The rest live on hundreds of nearly dead craftworlds plus outposts and havens.

>> No.42396407

>>42394622

>Asuryan ordered the gods to disconnect from mortal realm and ordered them to never again communicate with the Eldar.

Do phones even work inside slaanesh's tummy ?

>> No.42396430

>>42396212

Much like the way Eldar compare to humans.

Necrons absolutely own the shit out of everything. Their points value is huge so you can't take many of them in a balanced fight, which is the only chance that someone has against them.

And even in a points balanced fight, the Necrons (and Eldar) are excellent for their points.

>> No.42396459

>>42396407
Obviously, that was during the War in Heaven.

>> No.42396666

>>42394622
>freelancing a novel once in a while = being a member of the design studio

Good one, anon.

>What he writes in the novels are canon.

Even when they contradict what studio fluff says, I bet.

>inb4 "newest fluff takes precedence"
>inb4 newer codex fluff that contradicts Gav
>inb4 "herp-derp"

>Naturally

"What are tears of Isha?" for $300.

>> No.42396701

>>42388444

You mean two and then some. The 6th ed rulebook also mentions an unspecified craft world routing a sector fleet.

>> No.42396702

>>42395783
>The Imperium does need navigators though.

They can travel the warp without one, just like anyone else. That was my point.

>>42395796
>Real shame.

Did I say something that disagreed?

>> No.42396756

>>42394012

Those losers couldn't even over run a craft world that was considered small BEFORE it was turned into a ghost town by tyrannies. They needed Legion of the Damned to pop up and decide they were immune to Avatars because reasons. They got their planet wiped out by worst craftworld.

>> No.42396803

>>42396666
>Good one, anon.

He works with GW and has put some input in writing the End Times (Elves part especially). He is the guy who worked on retconning the Elves Pleasure cults away from being Slaaneshi

>Even when they contradict what studio fluff says, I bet.


Like you said, newer takes precedence. There is nothing in the BL works that GW hasn't unapproved of. In fact, BL has been restructured to adhere closer to the lore.

>"What are tears of Isha?" for $300.

Something that got Asuryan angry and made him deliver Isha and her husband to Khaine to punish them.

After the whole War in Heaven was over, the Eldar Gods remained disconnected from Eldar. It's part of the reason why the Eldar Gods were helpless to stop the Eldar deline into decadence.

>> No.42396830

>>42396701
That's mighty Stronk.

Based Biel-Tan.

>> No.42396840

>>42394924

Nigga pls. Altansar lived in the warp for fuck knows long and Biel-Tan established bases on a planet in the Eye.

>> No.42396854

>>42396756
>They needed Legion of the Damned to pop up and decide they were immune to Avatars because reasons.

They Legion of the Damned only helped with the Avatar which was wrecking everything in its path.

Also FYI, Legion of the Damned are immune to all flame based attacks even it was warp based. The Avatar sword is firey. Put two and two together. It isn't just Avatar flaming sword, the fire from Tzeentchian flamer daemons had no effect on the Legion of the Damned (Source 7th ED marine codex).

>> No.42396866

>>42396840
Didn't they retcon the exploits of biel-tan and saim-hann in the EoT?

Fuck knows why

>> No.42396868

>>42396701
A single (though, large) Night Lord warband destroyed a Craftworld. I highly doubt that a single Night lord warband has enough ships as a sector fleet.

>> No.42396884

>>42396840
>>42396866
Eye of Terror =/= Warp

>> No.42396974

>>42393960
There were. Printed in Planet Killer #1.

ELDAR CRAFTWORLD
Type/Hits: Battleship/20
Speed: 10cm
Turns: None
Shields: Holofields
Armor: 5+
Turrets: 2

Weapons Battery: 45cm, 20, All around
Port Pulsar Lances: 45cm, 5, Left
Port Launch Bays: 30cm (Darkstars)/20cm (Eagles), 5 Squadrons
Starboard Pulsar Lances: 45cm, 5, Right
Starboard Launch Bays: 30cm (Darkstars)/20cm (Eagles), 5 Squadrons
Linear Accelerator: 30-150cm, 1, Front
Dorsal Missile Batteries: 30cm, 10, All around.

>> No.42397038

>>42393651
This, really. Most of the time the Imperium figures taking out a whole craftworld is more trouble than it's worth, so they focus on individual Eldar threats as they pop up. Compared to the Orks, Nids, or Chaos, they're not much more than an occasional nuisance.

>> No.42397071

>>42397038
They won't punish whole Craftworlds but they will punish individual Eldar

>>452.M34 THE BLINDED SEER

>A Culexus Assassin is sent to claim the head of the manipulative Farseer Lithandros-Esmanthil. The Eldar senses the threat and scries the skeins of fate accordingly, but is increasingly alarmed to find he is unable to locate the thread corresponding to his pursuer. After a long and terrifying hunt, the Assassin ambushes his prey in the lonely halls of Saim-Hann’s Dome of Reflection. Rendered psychically inert and driven to exhaustion by the chase, Lithandros-Esmanthil gives himself up to the sinister violence that follows.

>> No.42397075

>>42396974
The Craftworld is intended for use in only very specific scenarios, as no Eldar would intentionally endanger them in battle, and as they follow an unalterable path through the cosmos, it would be impossible to do so anyway.
A Craftworld costs 700 points of an Eldar player's fleet allowance, however any Admiral present must be on a ship of the fleet and not the Craftworld.
The Craftworld's Farseers can guide any ship on the tabletop of the best course of action in battle. One Eldar vessel or squadron per turn to consider its Leadership value to be 10 for any test it has to make.
The Webway gate attached to the Craftworld's rear allows it to pull Eldar vessels of its own fleet or other Craftworlds' to its aid. The Eldar player may buy any ship in his fleet for half points cost aside from the Craftworld, however these vessels start off the board. At the start of every Eldar turn after the first, the Eldar player rolls a dice, allowing him to bring one vessel or squadron through the gateway on a score of 6.

A Craftworld's Leadership is always 10.
A Craftworld always moves 10cm per turn straight ahead, and cannot turn.
A Craftworld may only use the Lock On, Reload, and Brace for Impact special orders.
All Eldar special rules for Attack Craft, Torpedoes, Pulsars, and Weapon Batteries apply to a Craftworld.
Because of the stable firing platform and massive power source, the range of a Craftworld's Weapon Batteries and Pulsars is extended to 45cm.
A Craftworld's Torpedoes may be fired every turn without the need to reload, due to its massive missile bays.
A Craftworld's Launch Bays need to reload after launching attack craft the first time, but they may never run empty (rolling doubles means nothing)
A Craftworld's Holofields are reinforced with repulsion generators, so while they have no shields, a Craftworld is unaffected by blast markers or celestial phenomena.

>> No.42397088

>>42396803
All I've ever seen Gav associated lately has been BL novels. If you have some hard evidence of him working for GW once more, do share.

>There is nothing in the BL works that GW hasn't unapproved of.

Good to know multi-laser marines and Slaaneshi Eldar are as canon as codexes.

>BL has been restructured to adhere closer to the lore.

Too bad people make it sound like GW's been restructured to adhere closer to BL.

>After the whole War in Heaven was over, the Eldar Gods remained disconnected from Eldar. It's part of the reason why the Eldar Gods were helpless to stop the Eldar deline into decadence.

According to Gav.

Before you can quote it from a codex or a rulebook, good luck pushing that shit. If I took everything some BL author wrote as pure canon, no matter how much it disagreed with everything else, you'd go skitzo.

But hey, what ever float's GW market appeal and IP, I guess.

>> No.42397110

>>42397075
The Craftworld's Linear Accelerator uses all the rules for nova cannons and is considered to be one for game purposes (It is used by the Craftworld to destroy objects in its path, including planetoids)
A Craftworld does not suffer Critical Damage. Instead, for every 2 points of damage, it suffers -1 to each of its Weapons Batteries, Pulsars, and Launch Bays
A Craftworld may not be targeted from the rear because of its Webway gate.

Needless to say, they're pretty beastly.

>> No.42397197

>>42396868
And they got rekt in turn when some guys from Ulthwe and a Phoenix lord destroyed an entire company.

>> No.42397298

>>42396701
>The 6th ed rulebook also mentions an unspecified craft world routing a sector fleet.

More than that, actually: the 5th edition rulebook said the disaster of Blood Nebula and the loss of an entire sector fleet was the result of the last Imperial attack on a craftworld. However, 6th edition changed this: now the disaster of Blood Nebula and the loss of an entire sector fleet was the result of the ONLY Imperial attack on a craftworld.

>> No.42397310

>>42396701

This fits my math perfectly. You have a handful of overwhelming craftworlds that are overwhelmingly powerful and pretty much untouchable except by extraordinary events.

But the TYPICAL craftworld is much smaller and more vulnerable. Still overwhelmingly powerful, and a GM or author can always haul in reinforcements from one of the big ones to save it if they don't want the craftworld destroyed. In the ordinary course of events, though, its power is more on par with a typical 40k faction: SM chapter, a sector's worth of IG/Navy, a tyranid splinter fleet, a Necron minor Dynasty, etc.

Which is what you want. It needs to be close so the fight can go either way, both for reasons of plot or drama, and also to balance each author's favorite snowflake factions against one another.

>> No.42397326

>>42397088
>All I've ever seen Gav associated lately has been BL novels. If you have some hard evidence of him working for GW once more, do share.

Try asking around in WHFB and AOS particularly on the Pleasure Cults and number of Elves. He has a forum post here he talked about being consulted about these things by GW.

>Good to know multi-laser marines and Slaaneshi Eldar are as canon as codexes.

Happened before the restructuring (before GW and BL cared) and by the law of "New trumps old, they are doubly irrelevant.

>Too bad people make it sound like GW's been restructured to adhere closer to BL.

That's a strawman. All I am saying is that "new trumps old" whether it comes from GW, BL, or FW. If a new source said that Eldar can reincarnate without the need for spirit trees, then I will go with it regardless of which division it came from.
In fact, GE is using BL to push new lore and retcons like the recton that saw the Black Templar numbers drop to just a little above chapter strength.

>Before you can quote it from a codex or a rulebook, good luck pushing that shit.

According to the murderclown dex, Khaine, Asuryan, and Isha were helpless to stop the Eldar from their decline to decadence. All they did was sit and watch. But if you want to ignore that, okay then.

>But hey, what ever float's GW market appeal and IP, I guess.

Trust in a GW and stop being a cry baby over old lore. In a few years, everything will fall into place neatly.

>> No.42397328

>>42396212
Not great, but primarily because Necrons have weapons to specifically counter Eldar special rules. Eldar ships would still probably be better if it weren't for that, and I have a much harder time playing against Eldar than Necrons with any other fleet.

It's their sheer maneuverability combined with their rapetastic lance array. In a 1v1 fight, no Imperium vessel can beat an Eldar one unless the Eldar player is a total backbirth. They need to establish a net of fire or the Eldar ship can just run rings around them and stay way out of their arcs of fire.

They're well balanced when you have equivalent point fleets, though. Get enough guns pointing enough ways and it's hard not to hit something.

>> No.42397339

>>42397197
Wrong Night lord warband.

>> No.42397359

>taking BL as the be-all-end-all of canon

You might as well be using FFG - which, by the way, is only canon in the games you use it for.

Codices trump all.

Specific stories that don't generalize and use incredible vagaries trump within codices.

>> No.42397384

>>42397359
Nope, All the quotes say that novels are as canonical as codexes and with GW actually tightening its grip over BL editorial-wise there is no excuse for you guys to go "LOL BL".

>> No.42397409

Be aware, the Invaders boarded an already-skeletonized craftworld. Idharae had just finished fighting a Hive Fleet and most of its population had either left the heavily damaged ship or died in the previous battles.

>> No.42397428

>>42397409
If they were weakened, then why were they a threat to the Imperium, ehhh? The Imperium doesn't just attack with no reason. A whole chapter doesn't get deployed unless it's solidly justified.

>> No.42397463

>>42397384
In fact, It's GW, who in a case of a inconsistency or contradiction in the lore, that reviews all sources and decides the most logical and consistent path (also factor in their vision fir the setting) to choose for the canon.

(picture related).

>> No.42397495

>>42388334

>What would it take for the Imperium to destroy one of these things?

The amount of resources it would take would utterly cripple the Imperium. That combined with the fact the Eldar are the closes thing they have to allies means the official Imperial stance is "not worth it bruv'.

>> No.42397509

>>42397428
Because the Invaders fluff was published first, then someone saw it and thought "Wait, that's retarded, craftworlds are hueg. Retcon time!"

Secondly, Chapter fleets attack what they want. There's plenty of examples of Space Marines just running off to fight things for glory. The Imperium has policy of attacking unprovoked, too.

>> No.42397510

>>42396884

In regards to Altansar it is specifically said that Maugan Ra "delved into the unreality of the warp" in order to rescue them.

>> No.42397544

>>42397298
>the loss of an entire sector fleet was the result of the ONLY Imperial attack on a craftworld.

It's in 7th ed too.

>Crying_Gav_Thorpe.jpeg

>> No.42397549

>>42397510
All fine and good but Altansar was stated to be struck in the Eye of Terror which is a place where reality and and Warp intersect. It's not totally reality and it's not totally the warp.

>> No.42397557

>>42396974
>Holofields

No fucking way.

How the fuck to you mask something that big and unmaneuverable?

Even at the systemnal ranges at which space combat takes place in 4K, it should be extremely hard to miss something that big and slow. Craftworlds should have fuckoff shields and incredible point defenses.

>> No.42397558

>>42388334
>What would it take for the Imperium to destroy one of these things?
Not much considering a single Zoanthrope did it after getting to the infinity circuit which was apparently COMPLETELY UNGUARDED and there it found out how it works then it ate the uncountable numbers of the souls housed in the infinity circuit and destroyed the entire craftworld.

Pretty easy really... Eldar are very stupid...

>> No.42397575

>>42397428

>The Imperium would never attack aliens without justification

Lol.

>> No.42397596

>>42397557

But it's also a light and airy design-- mostly empty space. So a little like a christmas tree.

Most of your shots will pass right through the gaps.

Now with that said, those rules are pretty fucking stupid. I'd treat it as an exterminatus scenario with better planetary defense weapons. Presumably the ships on the table are only a small part of the overall fleet battle, which would be in the hundreds of thousands of points.

>> No.42397597

>>42396702
Honestly, I'm sorry, I got caught up in the moment. My point on the kroot getting through wasn't meant to mean they didn't have psykers, so I took your comment on them having psykers capable of getting by to mean the Eldar didn't.

>> No.42397607

>>42396701
Based Biel Tan.

>> No.42397613

Think of a craftworld as a vast room with doors along each wall.
How long will it take to clear the room of aggressors?
It depends how many have gone into adjacent rooms.
Also they may return if they know there's a fight going on.
They may not though.

>> No.42397621

>>42397549

It states specifically that Altansar was swimming in the warp at the time of rescue so I don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

>> No.42397640

>>42397575

Hey now, that's unfair. They need a perfectly good justification, like "They're filthy xenos" or "I'm bored"

>> No.42397643

>>42397557
I've heard that they used to have regular shields too but it was too OP.
So now Eldar never, ever, use regular force fields for their vehicles and ships. As asinine as that is.
Shit is probably riddled with guns though. They don't have to reload to launch torpedoes after all.

>> No.42397663

>>42397621
Where exactly?

>> No.42397696

Wasn't there Eldar Craftworlds in BFG?

>> No.42397723

>>42395052
>6 ED
Should be disrecarded immediatelly.

>> No.42397731

>>42397663

Maugan Ra's codex entry in 6th.

>> No.42397742

>>42397495
>>42397544
Makes sense.

Eldar Corsair fleets are larger than multiple Imperium sector fleets. Craftworld fleets are bigger. Their ships are wholly superior, too.

>>42397607
I used to really dislike Biel-Tan, partly because they seem the most illogical craftworld of the bunch, and partly because I spent most of 3rd Ed fighting an uphill battle against them, but between this kind of stuff and the fluff where one of their princes decides to nonviolently relocate Imperial settlers, they've really grown on me. They're not as rad as Saim-Hann or cool as Ulthwe, but they have spunk.

>> No.42397746

>>42396403
>assumptions
Craftworlds are massed like planetary gravity wells.

1 trillion was an estimate someone on warseer did for an average (not even large) craftworld.

>> No.42397768

>>42396974
The BFG rules they had for DL said use it as a planetary well. Those weren't as 'official'.

>> No.42397771

>>42397731
So basically what I said. It was swallowed in the Eye of Terror where reality and the warp intersect. They weren't purely in the Warp.

>> No.42397778

>>42397509
>Because the Invaders fluff was published first, then someone saw it and thought "Wait, that's retarded, craftworlds are hueg. Retcon time!"

To be fair, the lore is full of little bits like that which only get explained or expanded on later. Lord Ward made a point in the 5th edition designers' notes that the different codex timelines would have interconnecting stories and references to each other.

>> No.42397781

>>42397723
The same line is in the 7th ED codex.

>> No.42397803

>>42397771

It literally says he searched the warp and that was where he found them. What's your problem?

>> No.42397804

>>42397781
main rulebook*

>> No.42397815

>>42397803
>What's your problem?

They weren't in the Warp. They were in the Eye of Terror where the tides of the Warp and reality mingle.

>> No.42397865

>>42397815
>They weren't in the Warp
>He plunged into the unreality of the Warp and searched its malignant reaches for what was left of his lost people. Over the course of many adventures, Maugan Ra eventually found the remains of his craftworld.

You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink, I guess. There's is zero room for ambiguity. Where was Maugan Ra? The Warp. What did he find? Altansar. It's very clear, but I guess you'd rather die than admit wrong on an anonymous imageboard. Not giving you anymore of my time.

>> No.42397870

>Eldar can't enter the Warp!

There is an entire unit called Warp Spiders but does nothing but jump through the Warp and shoot people wherever they pop out.

Maugan-Ra pulled his craftworld out of the Warp.

It's stated in multiple places that Eldar ships can traverse the Warp but don't because it's uncomfortable and dangerous and they have a safer alternative in the Webway system.

>> No.42397887

>>42397865
Sorry, but they weren't in the pure warp. Read up on the Eye of Terror lore. I suggest "Index Chaotica: Eye of Terror".

It's an area bathed by the Warp but it's not wholly the Warp.

>> No.42397924

>>42397870
>Maugan-Ra pulled his craftworld out of the Warp.

Not really. He pulled it from the Eye of Terror. The only reason any life and somewhat stable matter can survive in the Eye of Terror is because it's not pure warp but merely a place where the Warp and reality mingle.

>> No.42397973

>>42397746

A continent-sized disk with supporting drives and equipment would be the size of a medium-sized moon and have a large gravity well.

And absolutely these are assumptions. I started out explaining that the canon is so contradictory and confused that you can find support for any position. My calculations are just designed to come up with some estimates based on reasonable assumptions and fit with as much canon as possible.

If you accept my assumptions, then the size of the craftworlds match up with canon. The populations come out about right. The major plot-heavy craftworlds come out as gigantic and largely immune to ordinary levels of attack, but there are plenty of minor craftworlds that in fiction or on the tabletop will be feasible if still very hard targets. I could be off by an order of magnitude in either direction and it would still work with the setting, but if you're looking for an estimate my numbers are something you can use without being too far wrong.

>> No.42397993

>>42397924
The entry on his craftworld literally says he pulled it out of the Warp. Not the Eye of Terror.

Also, material beings have been getting lost in the Warp and returning since forever, both in 40K and Fantasy. Don't talk shit if you don't know the fluff.

>> No.42398000

>>42397924
>merely a place where the Warp and reality mingle.

It just occurred to me that the Eldar were so slutty that they pulled their whole empire into a Magical Realm.

And if you're evil and neckbeardy enough with sorcery to become a Daemon Prince, then you too can rule your own private fetish world.

>> No.42398006

>>42397870

It's not even the only time Maugan Ra went to the warp. The munitorum volumes say he went there when he wanted to make his rad scythe-gun. I wonder if he ever visits Drago for a cup of tea and a chat. Do you get frequent flyer miles for trips to the warp?

>> No.42398021

>>42398006
Yeah, but the black out dates will drive you crazy.

>> No.42398087

>>42397993
>The entry on his craftworld literally says he pulled it out of the Warp. Not the Eye of Terror.

The codex says that the craftworld was pulled into the Eye of Terror where reality and the warp coexist. The Eye of Terror is a area of space bathed in warp energy. Also he went after his Craftworld when the Eye opened.

If he pulled it out of the Eye, then he technically pulled it out of the Warp.

>Also, material beings have been getting lost in the Warp and returning since forever, both in 40K and Fantasy. Don't talk shit if you don't know the fluff.

Usually, they are protected by the gods or are psykers and mages. Mundane folks don't survive there, they mutated with the raw energies of the Warp or are undone by its rage.

>> No.42398096

>>42398006
>t's not even the only time Maugan Ra went to the warp.

He went into a Cronewoeld. Not the Warp.

Sheesh...

>> No.42398104

>>42397993

Don't bother replying to him. I've already shown him where it says in writing he "plunged into the warp". Argument is over. At this point he's just shitposting.

>> No.42398136

>>42398104
The Eye is a place full of Warp energy being a wound in reality where the Warp bleeds into reality. So if he plunged inside, it means he plunged into the warp, technically.

>> No.42398145

>>42398096

>He went into a Cronewoeld.

Which was in the warp. That's two arguments you've lost now.

>> No.42398177

>>42398145
You mean in the Eye of Terror. Remember that Croneworld exists in the Eye and the Warp energies trasnformed to daemon worlds?

>> No.42398190

>>42398136

Does it say that though? No. It doesn't. It just says he went into the warp. Not the warp rift or the eye. Just the Warp. It even capitalises it as a location. You can't twist words. That's literally what it says.

>> No.42398232

>>42398177

>Remember that Croneworld exists in the Eye

Pretty sure it says right there it was consumed by the warp. I'm sure you'll recover from this defeat some day. Day by day, you'll learn to let go. I bid you farewell, gentle shitposter.

>> No.42398247

>>42398190
You don't understand context. The Warp can mean many things and in this case it mean the Warp in the Eye and not the True warp.

>>42398177
>A REFUGE OF EVIL

>The Eye of Terror is known to be home to many of the darkest evils of the galaxy. It has been the abode of Daemons since the Warp first burst through into realspace. The worlds in that region were utterly consumed by Chaos, turned into nightmare realities. Many of these were originally Eldar planets, now known as crone worlds. They are now the domain of the Ruinous Powers, as are new realms that were formed, or brought through the Warp during the Eye of Terror’s horrific creation. There, rivalries and grudges come to a head as opposing powers seek prime locations within the swirling mass. Armies of Daemons and their mortal allies fight bloody battles that rage back and forth, each of the shifting sides seeking supremacy.

>At the centre of the Eye of Terror, the powers of the Warp run strongest, meaning the laws of space, time and reality do not apply. Some worlds are flat, floating planes spinning in the ether, others are surrounded by fireballs, while tiered worlds rise up, supported by intertwining pillars. No one can say how these realities exist, save that the pure power of Chaos washes over them and has made them so. Those worlds most steeped in chaotic energy are the abodes of Daemons, and are considered outlying colonies of the Warp, while the outermost planets upon the fringes of the Eye of Terror cling to more of the physical laws of the galaxy. In the centre, time not only does not flow, but also does not exist as a concept, save for when such trivialities might please the Dark Gods themselves.

Consumed by the Warp means reshaped by its magics.

>> No.42398272

>>42398232
You

see

>>42398247

Daemon worlds were originally were normal that got consumed by the warp too, you know.

You find some of them in real space.

>> No.42398311

>>42398272
normal worlds*

>> No.42398318

>>42398272

He's baiting you. He can't know about croneworlds but not know what the Eye of Terror is.

>> No.42398351

>>42396701

Now I know why Biel-Tan is so pissed on Iyanden in Valedor.

>> No.42398354

>>42398318
I know, right? Some Eldarfags in their quest for wankery are ready to rape the setting's lore.

>> No.42398381

Jesus Christ this argument is awful every time it comes up but I'm actually with Carnac on this one. All the trouble is caused by the fact that the various descriptions of Altansar use Warp and Eye of Terror interchangeably, which it seems was a poor choice.

6e:

>When the Fall caused the fabric of reality itself to burst open, Craftworld Altansar was caught within the gravitic pull of the Eye of Terror and slowly devoured. Millennia later, the craftworld was spat back into reality. Despite its uncanny resurgence, Altansar is viewed with great suspicion by all other Eldar, for it is whispered that they are tainted by their ordeal in the heart of Chaos.

>The broken infinity loop above the world-rune has only been adopted by the craftworld since its narrow escape from an eternity of damnation within the Eye of Terror.

>Altansar was one of the many craftworlds, large and small, that survived the Fall. It rode out the initial psychic shockwaves that destroyed the Eldar realms but was subsequently caught in the gravity well of the Eye of Terror. Although the Eldar of Altansar fought valiantly against the encroachment of Chaos, they were unable to escape their inevitable doom. Within five hundred years of the Fall their craftworld was swallowed whole into the Warp. The only soul that escaped the clutches of this roiling Warpstorm was the Phoenix Lord known as Maugan Ra, the Harvester of Souls – the mightiest of Altansar’s Exarchs and founder of the Aspect of Dark Reapers.

>see >>42397731 - "Eye of Terror", "gaping lesion where realspace and the Warp could coexist", "plunged into the unreality of the Warp"

>Maugan Ra guided what was left of his craftworld out of the Eye of Terror and led them against the forces of Chaos to deny them their victory.

>The question has been asked many times, though never in Maugan Ra’s presence – how could any living Eldar warrior remain untouched by the predations of the Eye of Terror for so many millennia?

>> No.42398401

>>42398381
Thank you!

At last someone with reason.

>> No.42398405

>>42398381

7e:

>When Slaanesh surged into existence, many craftworlds escaped the deadly metaphysical pull of the Eye. Altansar found itself on the cusp of the rift’s reach, and although the Eldar of that craftworld fought valiantly, over five hundred agonising years their craftworld was swallowed by the Warp.

>The world-rune of Altansar is the Broken Chain. Once a reference to Kurnous and Isha’s escape from the dungeons of Khaine, it has taken on a deeper meaning since Altansar’s mysterious escape from the Eye of Terror.

>As the 41st Millennium winds to its grisly conclusion, the Phoenix Lord has brought hope from the unlikeliest of places, rescuing the lost craftworld of Altansar from its incarceration within the Eye of Terror.

>> No.42398460

>>42397731
Okay, reading this, it says he "plunged into the unreality of the Warp and searched its malignant reaches." It also says the phenomenon was a rift - i.e. a gateway. This wasn't the Warp superimposed upon reality, this was an actual doorway into Warpspace from which "the armies of that hell-plane were spewing forth."

This isn't even remotely vague. Altansar was in the Warp, Maugan Ra went in and got it out.

All the people saying he merely entered the Eye of Terror are retarded. It AT NO POINT says he jumped into the Eye. It says he jumped through a rift into the Warp. There'd be no reason for Maugan Ra to have "took his chance" if it was just him rolling into the Eye or a space equivalent to the Eye. THE EYE IS ALWAYS THERE he had all the fucking time in the world to do that if that's what this meant.

Christ you guys are retarded.

>> No.42398485

>>42398460
Just no.

He searched through the Eye which is a place flooded by Warp energies.

>> No.42398592

>>42398485
Literally says he plunged into the Warp.

Literally says he "took his chance" while the rift was open, meaning it wasn't the Eye, because the Eye doesn't fucking close.

>> No.42398615

>>42398460
>r Maugan Ra to have "took his chance" if it was just him rolling into the Eye or a space equivalent to the Eye

OH come on.

Getting in and outside of the Eye of Terror is extreme difficult and dangerous. He waited until the Eye opened (which it does whenever the dark powers wax or Abaddon launches his black crusades both usually happen at the same) to get his chance at a safe route to into the Eye where he searched for that Craftworld.

>> No.42398680

>>42398592
You

see

>>42398615

>However, as the Eye opened wide at the end of the 41st Millennium, Maugan Ra undertook a great odyssey that culminated in the rescue of his lost people.

-7th ED Craftworld Eldar codex

The Warp meaning the Eye of Terror. the Warp inside it.

See also
>>42398381
>>42398460

>> No.42398767

>>42398680
Cadian Gate

>The tides of both space and the Warp are roiled by the presence of the Eye of the Terror. As such, travel to and from that deadly region is incredibly difficult. There are many routes, all of which shift and fluctuate save one. The one and only reliable route to and from the Eye of Terror is the area of space surrounding the planet Cadia. Known as the Cadian Gate, it is the only place a sizable fleet can enter or exit the Eye of Terror, and as such, it has become one of the most strategically vital worlds in the Imperium.

Getting into the Eye of Terror is no cakewalk. Ra needed an opening to get inside. A route provided to him when the Eye opened wide and spew its hordes.

>> No.42398776

>>42398680
>>However, as the Eye opened wide at the end of the 41st Millennium, Maugan Ra undertook a great odyssey that culminated in the rescue of his lost people.

This just confuses things further.

Did the hole at the center of the Eye stabilize or something? The Eye itself isn't hard to get into if you're prepared for a fight - there's no barrier. You can just drive into it. The difficulty is fighting all the Chaos legions and other horrors that stalk its borders. Presumably it would be harder if the Eye was 'open', whatever that means, and more demonshit was flooding out.

This fluff is so inconveniently written.

>> No.42398828

>>42398776
You

see

>>42398767

If you just dive into the Eye without having a safe route, you risk getting destroyed.

>>
Name (leave empty)
Comment (leave empty)
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Password [?]Password used for file deletion.
Captcha
Action