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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.41384169 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Devs went ahead with the site overhaul despite the flurry of feedback suggesting that the beta was "loud" and "really fucking white." Do you like/hate it? Any luck with your LFG posting? How are your games?

>> No.41384200

The new interface is really fucking dumb. Instead of being greeted with a list of my games now I have a literal page's worth of HURRR WELCOME BACK. And then when I do scroll down they've turned my nice list of square icons into rows of banners. The fuckers.

>> No.41384237

I, among many other Mentors, spent WEEKS giving them feedback on the Mentor-only forum where they were testing the design on the Dev server.

They then went live with the design after listening to and taking not a single word of feedback. The design they rolled out is identical to the one on the Dev serve a month ago, one I know for a fact I wrote a whole page about why it sucks and where it needs to be fixed.

So yeah. Read the locked thread in the General forum, you'll see they freely admit they have no interest in feedback, and will only change things after people "live with it for a while".

>> No.41384257

>>41384237
Oh, and I just checked.

They're locking every single thread saying the design sucks.

Yay.

>> No.41384292

>>41384237
Redbeard?

>> No.41384297

>>41384292
No.

>> No.41384311

>>41384257

All because we insulted his "consultant" buddy.

It just reeks of a cash grab in the same way DA's redesign went over. Sadly there is no alternative short of wasting hours in maptools.

>> No.41384328

Why did they round the fucking avatar images? What's the fucking point?

>> No.41384354

>>41384311
>>All because we insulted his "consultant" buddy.

Oh yeah, holy fuck that post.

Like, dude, seriously. He's a bad web designer. LOOK AT THE FUCKING CODE.

And they're just not gonna do anything about it. They're just going to let it sit, and as someone on the forum said, they're just going to keep it with nothing the community can do, and after a few weeks of complaining start to die down and people just kind of accept that it's the way it's gonna be for good, they're gonna pat themselves on the back and say "See, it was successful!"

>> No.41384426

>no longer lists games by "schedule"
>no longer able to access all my games directly from the front page

>> No.41384452

>>41384169
What was wrong with the website in the first place exactly?

>> No.41384454

>>41384237
perhaps they deemed your ranting as idiotic
>>41384169
i for one like it
deal with it, scrub

>> No.41384474

Did they at least fix the dice RNG?

>> No.41384485

>>41384474
All they did was have some blogger fuck up the website or something. The App is still the same.

>> No.41384486

>>41384454
>perhaps they deemed your ranting as idiotic
Hurf

>Well laid-out, point-by-point critique of a web design beta test (one that they ASKED FOR FUCKING FEEDBACK ON) coming from the technichal perspective of a web designer
>Nearly every single point is echoed by literally every other person in the thread, all bringing the same basic issues up over and over
>For weeks of the "beta" testing.

But sure, it's just me that was "ranting"

Why ask for critique if you're going to ignore it and make excuses? If you don't want criticism, don't put something up to be critiqued.

>> No.41384496

It's like none of you people ever played League of Legends before.

The Devs do not listen too hard to beta testers, ever. They will ship buggy/broken/OP/etc. shit to the public because they want real-world use and feedback. Oftentimes, what is complained about in betas never gets fixed because the wider player population has no problems with it, and those few times it is problematic the devs would rather mumble apologies and try to save face than actually do anything that's been suggested to them.

Why anyone thinks complaining will get them anything I never know.

>> No.41384508

I like it conceptually but it needs work. There are some pretty ridiculous screen-scaling issues that should have been fixed before going live. Also the fonts are all... way too big. Even for big, clean designs, they're way too big.

At least they finally added thread pagination.

>> No.41384516

>>41384354
>Kinja
>Deviantart
>Gamespot
>IGN
>Cnet
>Skype
>Windows 8
Welcome to tech, may I take your fedora and pipe?

>> No.41384528

>>41384496
Because their "Beta testers" are their source of income in this case.

>> No.41384537

>>41384311
>maptools

I'm still salty about the kickstarter Mote -> MoteX bullshit the Maptools guys pulled.

If I weren't such a poorfag, I'd move over to FantasyGrounds instead. I hear their devs actually care about user experience.

>> No.41384539

>>41384496
>what is complained about in betas never gets fixed because the wider player population has no problems with it,

Which is why they're in lockdown mode, shutting down forum threads by Mentors and non-Mentors in the public board that are critical or negative about the changes?

If they cared about the "wider population" they would listen to the weight of evidence against them. They're not interested in listening to anyone, at all. They're interested in doing their thing, using the design their friend made them, and just hiding their heads in the sand until people give up and accept that nothing is changing.

>> No.41384554

>>41384508
>There are some pretty ridiculous screen-scaling issues that should have been fixed before going live.

I made a post literally about exactly this during testing. I even told them how to fucking do it. It's easy, it doesn't require anything but a little bit of CSS and HTML.

Nope. Nothing.

>> No.41384556

>>41384485
Disgusting.

>> No.41384557

>>41384474

They switched over to a hardware RNG a while back, advertised as "Quantum" rolls or some such silliness.

>> No.41384585

Clicking on the email or password field to "Sign In" makes the drop-down menu roll right back up. Did nobody bother to test that?

>> No.41384602

>>41384585
>go to sign out to test this
>sign out button brings me to a "not found" page

>> No.41384615

>>41384585
>Thread paginates before there's even a second page.
>Literally generates a link to page 2 before there are any posts to go on page 2.
>The link returns a blank error page

No, no one tested this.

>> No.41384622

>>41384539
>those few times it is problematic the devs would rather mumble apologies and try to save face than actually do anything that's been suggested to them.

>> No.41384634

>>41384554
Legally, they cannot use any code offered to them by their community without opening themselves to all kinds of legal trouble.

>> No.41384644

And here I was thinking I would use it for playing an RPG with my buddies.

I hope the Rollplay Youtubers comment on the site overhaul.

>> No.41384657

>Open https://wiki.roll20.net/Acknowledgements to try to find out who's behind this
>Wiki page
>Not updated since February 2015

Fuck you.

>> No.41384658

This shit is exactly why my group switched to Tabletop Simulator a few weeks ago. it is literally the best move I could've made for online RP. I can't think of anything Roll20 could possibly do to lure me back.

And best of all dice as physics objects means no RN jesus. it is glorious.

>> No.41384691

>It was sort of broken, so we really fucked it up for some reason
>If people stop using it because we keep breaking it, then we'll stop breaking it and fix it instead

>> No.41384694

>But we also wanted to take the focus off of titles and move it toward in-application features. A Roll20 "Plus" experience, a Roll20 "Pro" experience.

Cash grab?

>> No.41384695

>>41384658
>dice as physics objects means no RN jesus. it is glorious

>> No.41384696

Can I ban people from my games yet without having to use a new room link? If not, why the fuck not?

>> No.41384697

On the bright side, this confirms my suspicions about the dev team being a bunch of hacks and makes me feel better about not giving them any money.

>> No.41384699

>We're taking constructive feedback into consideration and will be pushing out some new changes in the morning that should help.

>That said, since this thread is only an hour hold and we're already devolving to personal insults, I'm going to close it.

The insult?

>All the content seems like it was thrown together by someone who took one HTML class in high school.

>> No.41384702

>>41384585
Can confirm, that was retarded.

>> No.41384715

>>41384496
>EHHHHHHH, why complain about things you don't like?
>You can't change anything anyway!

>> No.41384733

>1. The LFG tool is now better integrated with the site. Several different areas now feed into it, meaning it no longer needed to be stand-alone in the toolbar.

This is stupid. It's as stupid as the Metro Start Page in Win8. Why would you make it HARDER to find something so important, even if you have it appear on more pages in dozens of different, inconsistent locations? It's so fucking dumb.

>2. The site is intentionally "cleaner" in design.

I remember using it before and it wasn't too bad. I don't know about the current site because I haven't logged back in yet.

>3. The virtual tabletop itself hasn't changed-- the site simply looks more like the tabletop.

But the site matters just as much, doesn't it? And the tabletop was actually rather hard for me to use as an IE10 user. That should've gotten more work, not the site.

>We'll be sorry to see anyone go over this redesign, particularly a Pro user, but we believed strongly that it was time to shed our three year old site look (and more importantly, site map). We hired consultants and had an extended feedback period for Pro accounts. We'll continue to refine the design, but are overall quite proud of what we're launching today.

So who provided feedback? >>41384237 says that they didn't even listen to anything?

>> No.41384750

>>41384715
There are plenty of alternatives if you don't like it. Or make your own if you think you can do a better job than the only 21st Century online roleplaying tool to have more than 50 users.

>> No.41384769

>Our first priority with bring the site back up was payment-related areas (people checking their subscription level, looking at their Marketplace purchases, etc). Next we're moving towards I think Private Messages, and then some forums stuff.

We wanted our money system to be working so people would pay us money! Then we'll actually fix real usability/readability bugs!

>> No.41384785

Guys, I'm a Pro now
:-)

>> No.41384790

>>41384750
An alternative wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't decided to fuck everything up.

>> No.41384798

Someone should make a stink on leddit or twitter or something if it hasn't been done already. The reason I say that is because they do get more traffic than this single thread ever will ("normies" or not). Get the message out there so more can see it.

>> No.41384801

>Combining the created and joined games was intentional.

Is this a dumb idea? I think it's dumb, but maybe more casual users and more players would prefer it?

>>41384715
>TODAY, RIGHT THE HECK NOW complaining doesn't do much, no, but we're interested in what reactions are like after people have lived in it for awhile.

>> No.41384811

>>41384750
The reality is that there are few workable alternatives to Roll20 that are worth using. Roll20 remains (mostly) usable, accessible, and free--and this snafu aside, will continue to be so unless their announcement tomorrow is to fuck with their freemium model.

>> No.41384851

Something one of the players in my group mentioned over skype earlier. Thought it was rather telling.
>"You know what made me laugh too. Is today is the FIRST day I ever tried to launch this in Safari on a Mac at work. I just figured it wasn't compatible."

>> No.41384867

>>41384733
>So who provided feedback?

I and other Mentors did. I can show you the posts on the hidden forum.

>> No.41384877

>>41384867
please do

>> No.41384878

>>41384867
Please do so.

>> No.41384879

>>41384867

Please do. Blackout your names or w/e in case the devs are lurking itt and feeling butthurt.

>> No.41384880

>>41384867
Nab that shit right the fuck now

>> No.41384887

>>41384851
Jokes on you. It's not compatible with any browser. Not IE12, not IE11, not IE10, not Chrome on Windows, not Firefox, not Opera, not Safari on iPad, not PS3 Browser, not 3DS Chrome, not Chrome on Android.

>> No.41384897

>>41384292

I was Canuhearmenow in that thread.

I think I made Nolan angry.

>> No.41384979

>>41384658
>dice as physics objects means no RN jesus

I don't think you know how these things work.

>> No.41384987

>>41384452
>What was wrong with the website in the first place exactly?

It wasn't integrated and the synergistic of the Subscription model were hardly ergonomic.

Their response was a series of buzzwords that amounted to nothing and the only thing with substance they mentioned was "oh wow, we want financial success, why is that so bad?"

In the thread I was smashing Nolan in he outright said the new design was made to "better guide users, especially new ones, towards the Subscription page."

That's it, that's exactly it, they're expanding their demographic (the site looks okay on mobiles, grabbing that HUGE mobile online tabletop market) while tricking people who don't know any better into buying their subscriptions.

And you know what? When I pointed that out, straight up without any sort of wordplay, and then said a proper business model works on showing you care about the customers, they got *offended* and closed the thread after saying some snarky "we're done here" comment.

>> No.41385000

>>41384897

Waiting on forum thread. Why do dev's always do this shit.

Dev: "Hey guys can you give us feedback?"

Guys: "Its terrible"

Dev: "What do you mean? I put in all this work, all these changes are awsome"

Guys: "Ok fix this, this, and this"

Dev: "Why would we do that its perfect?"

Guys: "WHY DID YOU ASK FOR FEEDBACK THEN!"

Dev: "Stop attacking us!"

>> No.41385006

>>41385000

Here's the thread

https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/2211748/please-tell-me-we-are-in-some-sort-of-half-released-state/

>> No.41385017

>>41384877
>>41384878
>>41384879
>>41384880

I don't feel like skimming the forum and making a big-ass graphic of every post I can find, so I copied a few bigger ones.

Links to the screenshots for sizing:

http://i.imgur.com/koFp5YN.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/gdSp3gh.jpg?1

>> No.41385044

>>41385006

"believed strongly that it was time to shed our three year old site look"

WOOOOOOW, Dont fix what aint broke, some of the most popular sites have not changed there front end in over 8 years. Why? Because you dont fix what aint broke.

There consultant should be tard and feathered.

>> No.41385066

>>41385044
>There consultant should be tard and feathered.

He was their friend. He did the work, so they love it.

I'm sure they showed him all the feedback on design in the mentor forums over the course of about 2 months, and he said "Uh...I dunno what they mean. Looks fine to me."
and they were like "Yeah, cool, ok launch it."

>> No.41385102

>>41385017
That's hilarious, reading that they're getting complaints from non-Pro users about exactly the same things.

>> No.41385103

>>41385066
>I'm sure they showed him all the feedback on design in the mentor forums over the course of about 2 months, and he said "Uh...I dunno what they mean. Looks fine to me."
>and they were like "Yeah, cool, ok launch it."

But anon!

>On a secondary note, I think "sod the consultants" is the first thing I've legitimately taken offense to today. We worked with a designer who's worked with us from the Kickstarter to create and unify our look. Someone who's played here and is well regarded in all sorts of geek design areas. This wasn't some disconnected ad agency job. While there's plenty that will be balanced in the coming days and weeks, this conjured negativity towards the effort won't fly.

The designer uses Roll20 and was with them on Kickstarter it's totally okay, you're just being a bigot by saying the designer is terrible.

>> No.41385109

>>41385017
Fuck

>> No.41385121

>>41385000
That's an issue with people not wanting testers.

>> No.41385169

>>41385102
I told them. I told them exactly what to fix. They didn't fix it. They launched it. Now people are telling them EXACTLY WHAT I FUCKING SAID.

They asked for feedback, they changed nothing based on that feedback, and they expected the wider population to not see things.

I wrote my posts to them literally based on my first impressions and notices, followed by deeper criticism on a design-level. If they're things I noticed right away, every fucking other person will see those things too.

But they've moved on to the "Well, we'll just see how everyone feels in a few months" model now. I can only assume they will collated and poll absolutely no data from their users between now and then, and will only lock critical threads.

>> No.41385185

Biggest problem for me is that so many things redirect to "Not Found"

>> No.41385190

>>41385185
They haven't gotten around to renaming everything yet, just give them a few days to launch.

>> No.41385198

>>41385017
>Digitial
Well, at least we have concrete proof that they fixed one thing between beta and now.

The size thing probably isn't going to change, though. Even professional websites like Forbes do that shit - I have to zoom out at least two steps to make the text in an article small enough for my eyes to focus on it. I blame tablets and mobile users.

>> No.41385203

>>41385000
Did they want feedback or did they want beta testers?

Because contrary to popular opinion and fucking stupid early access shit, those are not the same thing.

The point of beta testing is to find bugs, not provide suggestions.

>> No.41385233

>>41385198
Weird. On my web browsers, on a 1920 x 1080 resolution, I always have 150% zoom on because I don't want to be straining my eyes looking at 9-point font.

>> No.41385235

>There's usually at least two new campaigns posted daily, for the past two weeks
>Today comes and goes, not a single new listing, Pathfinder (usually at 2-3 pages) is down to 1 and shrinking

I hope to god these guys get the biggest profit drop they've ever seen.

>>41384987
>In the thread I was smashing Nolan in he outright said the new design was made to "better guide users, especially new ones, towards the Subscription page."

Like hell this is going to attract new users, the average person is greeted with a sterile white background with terrible font and an unintuitive design scheme, and you know what happens when someone even hits "search for new games" because hey, they want to know how alive this site is?

They're forced to make an account, which encourages them every step of the way to subscribe.

If you're a Joe Schmo who was recommended to search for games on this site, what are you supposed to take out of this? Unless they do a roll-back, they're going to see a drop in users until it's just the die-hard brown-nosers or people still trying to finish up campaigns.

I don't know what I want to see more, the site waste away into pathetic mediocrity or die entirely.

>> No.41385265

>>41385169
>But they've moved on to the "Well, we'll just see how everyone feels in a few months" model now

I don't know what's a scummier move, saying "shut up and deal with it" or "we'll maybe think about things in a few months when everyone has settled into quiet discontent."

I think it's notable that Nolan did both in the same thread.

>> No.41385273

So now that roll20's gone to shit, what alternatives are there?

>> No.41385283

>>41385273

Maptools is not terrible.

>> No.41385287

>>41385273

MapTools, although there you run into the problem of finding a group without a "Looking for Group" button.

>> No.41385295

>>41385265
Yeah. The message overall is just one that has left me in a sour mood.

On the one hand, I can't imagine not having my Roll20 to run the weekly game I've been running for almost a year and a half now, with the Dynamic Lighting, API, and the tons of things I've put work into for my players.

But this whole thing has really just made me pissed off at the devs and actually considered pulling my subscription.

>> No.41385301

>>41385273
maptool, I guess

>> No.41385307

>>41385283
I am physically incapable of using Maptools. It's literally the shittiest program I've ever experienced.

>> No.41385324

Is there any way to roll dice in skype?

>> No.41385326

>>41385301
>>41385287
>>41385283
I saw someone suggest tabletop sim a way up. Is it worth looking into, and can it work without steam?

>> No.41385350

>>41385283
Why must you lie, anon?

>> No.41385368

What is it about Roll20 and Maptools that make them better than anything else?

Couldn't we just whip up a simple click-drag interface for maps, a dice rolling algorithm, and let users sign up for an LFG database to find one another on a simple site?

>> No.41385378

>>41385273

Maptool/MOTE, Fantasy Grounds, Tabletop Simulator, not much else.

>>41385307

MOTE was supposed to be a UI upgrade to Maptool, but it seems to be stalling out, and the devs want to move to Mote-X, a for-pay version, because their kickstarter didn't go as well as they hoped.
>nerd_rage.png

>> No.41385393

>>41385368
They did, that's what R20 is supposed to be. Problem is that people want to make money off of it, which is fine- but it invariable leads things into one of a few routes that can go badly. Like this. This is going badly.

>> No.41385406

>>41385368
Because those things take time, money, effort, and know-how.

>> No.41385407

>>41385393
Well, they don't have ads, right?

They make commissions off of selling assets for the tabletop interface and for people subscribing for features, as I understand it. So it seems like this update is pushing for more subscriptions?

>> No.41385417

>>41385393

Maybe Roll20 should stop hiring consultants if they dont have enough money -_-

>> No.41385436

>>41385368
>What is it about Roll20 and Maptools that make them better than anything else?

Roll20 used to be literally three clicks away from the homepage to find a full listing of every available game in the system you want.

It was simple, pleasing to the eyes, and very easy to use.

They threw it all away for... I don't even know what this was supposed to fix, when pressed the only excuse Devs have given was a nebulous "the site is three years old and needed a change, it NEEDED it guys."

This is quite possibly the end of Roll20, but at the same time that poses a problem because there actually isn't any other site that does online tabletop like Roll20 does.

Why is this getting me so upset. I loved you Roll20, and you had to go and do this.

>> No.41385438

>>41385406
What is Roll20's tabletop built off of?

>> No.41385439

>>41385407

Ya ive noticed that over time they are doing more and more to make money, and I am wondering where is all that money going? Are there servers eating it up? Did they hire 6 new people? Are the devs just greedy?

Does anyone know?

>> No.41385450

>>41385273
Used to use Rolistik a while ago.
I don't know if it's still updated.

>> No.41385462

>>41384474
What exactly is wrong with Roll20 dice rng?

>> No.41385464

>>41385407
>They make commissions off of selling assets for the tabletop interface and for people subscribing for features, as I understand it. So it seems like this update is pushing for more subscriptions?

The update pushes people making new accounts to buy a subscription.

>>41385439
>Does anyone know?

Let me give you the full discussion on this topic:

>Dev: We're looking forward to working with feedback, it just isn't going to happen immediately. With all the restarting of the site today, we've got folks who can't get in games and the like, so that's the current developer priority. Anyone who wastes time complaining at Gen Con, though... then we might physically do combat. :)

>User: Why is that? Is that because when they're complaining to you about your tyrannical profit-hungry schemes in person you can't just ban or ignore them like you could on these forums, where you're the king of the playground? :)

>Same Dev: More 'cause that's happy-fun-time / a place where taking feedback isn't particularly easy (try taking notes worth a damn when answering a deluge of questions on a panel in front of folks you're trying to entertain). And, yes... we like financial success. Not sure why this is an issue.

>> No.41385465

>>41385407
You know what? I don't even really have a huge problem with pushing for more subscriptions. I liked it and what was going on (although admittedly I wasn't looking too closely at what seems to be coming up now,) so I pro-actively made an effort to be a mentor. I got a good amount out of it, and my group had been using the app to great effect for a while, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to give back.

It's just the stupid moves people make when their money and friends are involved.
>>41385417
Shit like this.
Shit like ignoring your contribution-based userbase.


I'm giving them a week to smarten up.

>> No.41385470

So did the application part of roll20 change as well, or is it just the web interface?

>> No.41385477

>>41385439
Presumably Roll20 has been losing the devs money for the last 3 years and one or more of them just lost their job so they're trying to live off of Roll20.

Servers are NOT cheap, especially given all the data used up for hosting a messaging client and accepting inputs from a bunch of different sources for a single game.

>> No.41385488

>>41385470
No, the app (arguably one of the only things that needed tweaking) is exactly the same. All that was done was a bizaare shuffle of the website on the whims of paid "Consultants."

>> No.41385489

>>41385450

Never heard of it, but it looks like there's active development on a branch called Rolisteam

>> No.41385493

>>41385324
Not that I know of. My group used to use the Servitor dicebot over IRC, back when we still played.

>> No.41385496

>>41385439
Roll20 is a pretty traffic-heavy website, so a lot of it goes toward paying for hosting, probably.

Then there's paying the dev and management team which, hey, full-time employees at successful-tech-startup payment levels, that can be a pretty penny.

There's also the possibility of debts that have accrued over the course of starting and running a business, which is to be expected.

And of course, nearly every business' main goal is to expand to offer more services and make more money.

>> No.41385507

>>41385462

It used to commonly spit out noticeable patterns, like a bias toward high or low numbers. They switched over to a hardware RNG and it seems better, though.

>> No.41385519

I'm not gonna get my laptop out to do this since I dont remember my login somebody should link a forum to this thread so he can see heavier feedback that is softened when told to him.

>> No.41385520

>>41385470
>So did the application part of roll20 change as well, or is it just the web interface?

What, you mean the page you go to when you hit "Looking for Group?"

I was going to post the actual page and an example game, but that part of the site is broken.

You can't hover over names anymore, a single listing takes up half the page, and most of that is useless empty space. It's hard to look for when games are playing, and the summaries of most games are forced into ellipses.

It's a straight downgrade from what they had.

>>41385465
>I'm giving them a week to smarten up.

Fat chance at that, another developer trying to provide feedback to the problems everyone is having basically said, "No, it is going to stay like this."

>> No.41385539

>>41385519
No one gives half of a single shit what 4chan thinks on any subject.

>> No.41385550

>>41385520

Dev: "What happens if we take this loaded gun, point in towards the ground and shoot"

Guys: "Dont do it you might hurt your self!"

Dev: *Pulls the trigger* "Aaaggg! I hit my self in the foot!"

Guys: "I told you not to do it."

>> No.41385554

>Hadn't logged in since Sunday's game
>See thread about site overhaul
>"I wonder what it's like, if it's an-"
>WELCOME BACK, BRAVE ADVENTURER

Well, that's cringe inducing as fuck.

>> No.41385562

>>41385539
Well we'renot /b/ or /v/ and it's not like /tg/ players are really that much different wherever you go so I feel like iur opinion on this subject is about as relevant as anybodys at this point

>> No.41385565

>>41385520
I meant the bit with the map and chat and such where the game happens. Since I only really use it to play with friends, I guess it doesn't affect me much, besides the experiencing eye-blight on the way to the campaign

>> No.41385576

>>41385565
>I meant the bit with the map and chat and such where the game happens.

Oh no, that hasn't changed at all, apart from being significantly more laggy and prone to crashing.

>> No.41385578

>>41385006
>Reading that
>The 'Consultant'
>We worked with a designer who's worked with us from the Kickstarter to create and unify our look. Someone who's played here and is well regarded in all sorts of geek design areas.
>well regarded in all sorts of geek design areas.
>geek design areas.

What is this fucking big bang theory? Did they hire fucking sheldon cooper to be their 'geeky design consultant XD'?

>> No.41385579

>>41385539

I can think of 3 groups that care, retarded politicians, retarded news groups, retarded feminists... Am I seeing a pattern?

>> No.41385581

>>41385562
most people will see the 4chan part and just ignore the rest.

>> No.41385590

>>41385562
Although now that I say that I realize we're only 25 posters apparently jusg a lot of posts coming from us although it is 3:00am where im at so you win some you lose some.

>> No.41385592

Can it with your meta 4chan shit, it's not related to the thread.

>> No.41385600

If I could program I'd try to come up with a very simple alternative just to see if it was even possible to replicate some of what they do in something like Javascript.

>> No.41385601

>>41385519
More criticism probably wouldn't help at this point, and linking to 4chan never ends well.

The best option at this point is to just let the problem solve itself. They'll figure something out right quick once the money starts drying up.

>> No.41385604

>>41385600
You'd either start and give up or know how much of an undertaking that actually is and not even consider it.

>> No.41385607

>>41385578

Yep, and he bazingaed the shit out of the site.

Well, hey, this Rolisteam thing looks kind of neat, if a little sparse in the features department.

>> No.41385614

>>41385578
It's someone like Zoe Quinn.

>> No.41385628

>>41385604
Not for public consumption, but something for me and my friends to run off a Raspberry pi or something. Maybe it'll be complex enough that I can't do it in a few weeks but something I can see the end of.

>> No.41385629

>>41385601
>They'll figure something out right quick once the money starts drying up.

What if the money doesn't dry up and they continue afloat on naive subscribers and Paizo-tier brown-nosers?

I'd agree they're doomed if there was competition for their business, but there isn't.

>> No.41385636

>>41385581
I feel like anybody who does this is just looking for an excuse to not take input and is a pretty shitty businessman up front.

>> No.41385639

>>41385578
I swear to fuck if it's somebody's girlfriend or boyfriend or some shit

>> No.41385648

>They would dry up if they had competition
Do it then.

>> No.41385651

>>41385639
Maybe it's Nolan's realdoll?

>> No.41385652

>>41385578

"We worked with a designer who's worked with us from the Kickstarter-"
>the audience begins to chuckle and snicker

"to create and unify our look."
>hearty belly laughter emanates from the audience, people start clapping their hands violently

"Someone who's played here"
>the laughter of the crowd grows increasingly distorted, inhuman and hyena like as their amusement grows beyond endurance; cheers, hoots, and hollers

"-and is well regarded in all sorts of geek design areas."

>the applause grows ever louder and meatier sounding as people's hands begin to bruise and break from too much applause but it keeps going, someone from the crowd yells "NERDS AMIRITE LMAO" and a number of people begin to have strokes from their humor centers becoming overloaded and rupturing from the pure hilarity of the nerd shit

>> No.41385664

>>41385651

Wow, that’s harsh. You should not insult his realdoll when she talks she means business.

>> No.41385673

>>41384537
What happened with Mote?
I'm one of the guys with far too much time on their hands who actually learned to code shit into Maptool to make my campaigns work neatly, so I completely missed the whole Mote thing as it was happening.

>> No.41385700

>>41384695
What is RN?

>> No.41385712

>>41384785
For free?
How/why?

>> No.41385716

>>41385628
Which part would you replicate? just the app engine? the website frontend?

>> No.41385720

>>41385700
Random Number.

>> No.41385739

>>41385716
Some kind of shared screen where the designated GM can draw on it in real-time; multiple players can drag and drop images or manipulate tokens on it, maybe only in sequence so that it's not too complicated for me to program; and a text chat thing.

>> No.41385741

Why don't some neet anons with too much time just make a p2p replica of roll20 and sell it for 10bucks a pop to buy animu dolls?

>> No.41385753

>>41385741
>Why don't some neet anons with too much time just make a p2p replica of roll20 and sell it for 10bucks a pop to buy animu dolls?

As beautiful as that sounds, server maintenance *is* a thing.

>> No.41385755

>>41385741
What would you program it in? What language is Roll20's tabletop interface built in?

>> No.41385763

>>41385673

Well, that's part of what went wrong.

They ran a kickstarter to raise money, planning to work full-time on MOTE, a new revision of Maptool that would basically fix everything and make it fucking awesome. Problem was, apparently nobody heard about it, and the kickstarter went nowhere. I know I found out about it well after the kickstarter ended, and I'm not the only one. Getting the word out is important for a kickstarter.
Then they started work on the phase 1 UI changes (which they said was 95% done already when they launched the KS), and as that neared completion, they made a bitchy post about how KS didn't work for this kind of software, and they were going to create MOTE-X, a proprietary fork that would be for-pay, and how MOTE was going to go into bugfix only mode.
That's about where everything sits last I checked. Honestly, at this point I think I have higher hopes for this French Rolstik/Rolisteam project I just found out about upthread, as it looks like it's already got a nicer interface, and a cleaner codebase than Maptool/MOTE.

>> No.41385771

>>41385753
Not if the GM hosts game sessions on their device and everyone else connects to them through something like Steam or Hamachi.

>> No.41385787

>>41385753
>p2p
>server maintenance

Am I missing something?

>>41385755
I don't mean a carbon copy, just something very similar.

>> No.41385802

>>41385739
If that's all, it shouldn't take more than 24~48 hours, depending on your competency. I've seen people do more in less

>> No.41385823

>>41385787
I don't mean a carbon copy either, but wouldn't it be a good place to start by copying the language they started in so you can learn how to replicate their functionality?

I can sort of see how you'd create functions for decks, dice rolls, and tabletop in a language like C# or Java, but I really wouldn't know how to integrate them into a cohesive whole on a webpage.

>> No.41385848

>>41385823
Basically all web stuff these days is JavaScript+HTML5+CSS

>> No.41385875

>>41385763
Wasn't there another RPG tool that went down a similar route and then died? OpenRPG or something?

>> No.41385915

>>41384237
They might have a design and feedback process as bad or worse as Anonkun.com, holy shit.

>> No.41385933

>>41385875
Huh, I actually remember hearing about that one.

>> No.41385967

>>41385915
>Hm, Anonkun?
>Is that related to Anonib?
>What the fuck is this.
>Oh god this looks like shit.
>This tells me nothing.
>I already hate it for stealing so many images.
Is Anonkun basically a proprietary /quest/?

>> No.41386113

>>41385741
Rolistik was p2p.

>> No.41387452

>>41385763
>Maptool damage control: engaged
You're mostly correct, but there's some blanks that need to be filled in.
When you say 'they', what you mean is Lee, one of the code contributors. He started a company specifically to do Mote (Idle Ideas). He wanted to make a _branch_ of MT's code (MT is open source, literally anyone can do this). Shortly after he set up the company and started the kickstarter, something happened to him (something involving a motorcycle accident; reading between the lines, the guy's either dead or comatose). The coders Lee gathered for Mote (who had next to no investment in Maptool, and wanted to make some money) decided to make the otherwise reasonable move of throwing away the hodgepodge of code that is MT and do their own thing.
tl;dr Idle Ideas =/= the MT community as a whole

>> No.41387458

>>41384696
I guess this is a no, then?

>> No.41387709

does anyone else have issues trying to login at the front page? it takes me 2 or 3 tries. the drop down bar keeps disappearing.

>> No.41387753

>>41387709
That is happening to me too and was mentioned early in this thread. It's working for me because I had Chrome save my username and password, so I just had to input those, reopen the menu, and click Login. If you haven't done that, I'm sorry can't help you.

>> No.41387835

>>41384354
And here's the thing.

The consultant's job is to basically give advice on how to better improve the site's design and the user's experience while organically bringing in more consumers.

Instead, they did the opposite. They made design choices on par with pic related, stole code from Tumblr of all places, a site whose staff is infamous for making retarded UI decisions, violated one of the fundamentals of UI design by not only failing to reduce the number of clicks/rollovers required for someone to get where they want, but increased them, they're driving people out of the site while plastering it with links to the subscription page.

I can commend Ryan for trying to address the functionality issues (among other things, you can't log in because the rollover for the login thing goes away when you try to click on the text boxes), but Nolan is a complete asshat.

The only site I've seen fuck up this badly is Wikia back in, like, 2010 or 2011, when, again, they redesigned the site with mobile users in mind, completely ignoring desktop users. That's why you saw a bunch of wikis, gaming wikis in particular, leaving for other hosts.

>> No.41387977

So the site wasn't hacked by a virus or something? Is it still safe to run a Saturday evening game?

>> No.41388012

>>41385477
Of course it's losing them money. They've been banning anyone who posted even constructive criticism for over a year now. It won't make people stop playing, but shit like that makes them stop PAYING. If you're providing a service and treating your customers like trash, you're going to go into the reds, unless you have a monopoly on a vital service people NEED and HAVE to pay for. No one needs RPGs that much to shell out cash for R20's abysmally poor consumer interaction.

>>41387835
>Nolan is an asshat

Agreed. Fire him and solve most of the problems with the site because he's simply stopped talking.

>> No.41388015

>>41387835
It's pretty obvious that roll20's team needed someone with digital marketing experience, not just web design 'experience'. That way, they'd get it drilled in their heads that GOOD PRODUCT sells better than BAD PRODUCT.

>> No.41388057

>>41384237
Made me think of this

>> No.41388433

This is some Tumblr-tier UI update. Do they not base this on any feedback, or do they simply choose to ignore it?

>> No.41388760

>>41385629
...Then make competition?

A lot of you sit on your asses whining about the site and making jokes. Thing is apparently, as stated here ,we got web designers. R20 apparently is a business that actually makes money. They just shot themselves in the foot and weakened themselves. If there was a time for a proper competing site to boot up, it's probably now.

>> No.41388804

BRAVO NOLAN
R
A
V
O

N
O
L
A
N

>> No.41388818

>Roll20 got updated? Oh let's check this shit ou-
>GAH WHAT THE FUCK?!
>WHAT IS THIS HALF-BAKED, HALF-LOADED LOOKING MOBILE SITE?!
>WHY THE FUCK IS IT SCALING TO SUCH LUDICROUS SIZES ON A 1080P DISPLAY?!

It's awful. No seriously, this new design is an affront to every guideline of good visual design. It looks like the page never finishes loading, a desktop site should not scale and behave like a mobile site, and the fact that I have to scroll to read the welcome back message on a 1080p monitor is fucking stupid beyond belief.

>> No.41389933

>>41388760
I think it would be hilarious if someone makes a clone of old roll20 and all the users upset with this new design change leave to go to this new alternative. Then when the roll20 staff look to see where their userbase is going they see a site that pretty much what they were and they realize they were retarded.

>> No.41389954

>>41389933
Pretty much. That is what I'm suggesting.

>> No.41390116

>caring about anything outside of the roll20 app itself

>> No.41390307

>>41390116
The shit website is actually hurting the LFG, which is a very important part of the system.

>> No.41390465

Not sure that I'll stick around for a full drumming, but as I've frequently come here to discuss Roll20 and get feedback in the past, I feel like I owe it to /tg/ to at least take a stab at some response.

Let's start with what's less important (my frustration) and move to what's more important (your frustration).

My frustration comes with the "conjured" reasonings. The Monday morning quarterbacking. Bullet points:

>This was done by some outside entity / consulting.
It was done by us, from design work by the person who designed our logo. And all of it, from the "Welcome Brave Adventurer" on, has been part of our look for a long time. We're just making a fuller effort to unify that look.

>But nothing was broken.
I WISH. The previous website was a snowball effect. We made the VTT. Then grafted on forums. Then a Marketplace. Then a wiki. Then a blog. Then an LFG. Nothing flowed. People learned-- through sheer force of will-- to use it. But it was awful. What's more, because it was so many pieces, updating anything required updating four different things. It also made it nearly impossible to get a proper language translation program off the ground. If nothing else, the new website fixes all these problems.

>> No.41390564

>>41390465
Before this continues, it'd be nice for you to post some proof that you are who you claim to be, else this isn't gonna work well.

>> No.41390581

>Roll20 likes money / Roll20 isn't making money / money.
http://www.clickhole.com/article/dark-side-celebrity-chris-pratt-wont-star-movie-un-2765

Seriously, though, Roll20 is in good shape. We DO prioritize the folks who pay us (we'd be dumb not to), but also make big pushes to enhance the free elements (like the Android/iPad applications).

In the new site design, we wanted to remove the "Support" bar because we were making enough that updating the bar was silly. So we tried to move the "asks" for money to the places it made sense (near the places where the subscription bonuses come into effect). We'll see what that does or doesn't do.

This is a business, but there's no hail mary here. Nor is there some huge philosophical switch (anyone who's saying we redesigned for mobile... that's just incorrect. I can absolutely see how that assumption was reached, but it ain't the case).

As for us bringing back paid features first when we went live yesterday, YES. When somebody logs into a very different looking website, the first thing they do is check that all the stuff they paid for is there. So we hit that first. But we're talking about prioritizing in terms of minutes. We then went onto private messages, some extra errors getting into games causing by restarting the server (which would have been first if that had happened first), and so on. Today we're fixing problems with the drop down.

>> No.41390711

>>41390465
You're not adressing any of the issues we're bringing up, proper, though. Yeah, sure. Apparently you claim that the last design was a tacked on mess. I get that. Fine - you needed a new one.

We don't care. The issue is you took your previous base design - that people liked - and instead of refining it - you basically fucked it up. The gigantic font size coupled with the awful empty white space is awful on the eyes. Organization's a mess.

Secondly, you've moved the LFG away from the frontpage. This was a dumb move - LFG is your main attraction. There's no reason for you to put it somewhere else that isn't directy the frontpage. /That/ is what's getting you your subscriptions, not you fucking redirecting people to subscription pages. This is basic knowledge, shoving things in people's faces like that. Doesn't. Work.

It's been proven that your mentors have brought up the site design issues way before and you just ignored them thinking that people would eat it up. It didn't. Your numbers very clearly dwindled - the current PF LFGs are proof of that.

I doubt you want proper opinions and critique - but i'll give it to you anyway.

The "WELCOME BACK, BRAVE ADVENTURER" into thing needs to be smaller. Okay. I get it. The look. The feel of something kind of dorky. That's *fine*. It doesn't need to occupy half the goddamn page. Organize it. Bring LFG back to frontpage. Don't use this white, sterelized look. It looks like shit. It looks unnatractive, it doesn't *sell*.

Your current UI is not intuitive. At all. Look back at your old design. See what you did. Refine on it, don't try to make something randomly new from the start. Work on your previous project and *refine it*. I can't stress this enough. It had a great base. Don't throw it away.

>> No.41390716

>>41390564
https://twitter.com/NolanTJ/status/623892305938747392

I think that takes care of MY main grouchiness. There was a lot of snap judgement being leveled on the forums yesterday, which is odd for anyone who's been through an update with us. There's always a settling-in period. That's crummy. And the amount of weird assumptions is particularly irritating. At the end of the day, it doesn't MATTER because we know what's what (there weren't any drop-off's in subscriptions, LFG postings, site use, etc. yesterday), but... well, sometimes YOU WANT TO CORRECT SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET WHEN THEY ARE WRONG. Could be done with greater tact, but what can I say, I got my start in PR here on 4chan. :P

Onwards to your concerns. Recall we're just a day in...

>They aren't gonna listen.
https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/2215323/new-design-updates-plus-bugfixes-7-slash-22
Straight to it. Trying to make changes where we've seen the most stress (the white, the sizing, and obviously the bugs).

>Nolan is a jerk.
Yes. Sorry.

>LFG is going to suffer.
It hasn't yet, but this is going to be a very serious area of focus. Because we are Chris Pratts over here, we do polling upon subscription cancellation, and the #1 reason someone cancels is their group falls apart. So we NEED a good LFG. Which is why we've tried to have it popping up in several placing during your first go-rounds on the site. If we see drop off, we'll be fixing it.

>> No.41390749

>>41390465
>>41390581
Okay, but if you are who you say you are, then can you explain why the site's scaling looks like it's made to run exclusively on iPads? Or why the layout in general is so simultaneously full of wasted white space while usable elements are bloated in size beyond reason?

I should not have to scroll nearly as much as I am now. I should not fucking blink and see giant text blurred into my vision because you decided to use giant black text on a plain white background.

>> No.41390783

>>41390711
In addition, I don't quite follow. Why are you "fixing" problems now? The mentors had acess to this a month ago. They gave you critique. That's when you should've fixed. Why the hell did you wait until your full release to fix shit, instead of using your testers to release a fully functional system from the start?

>> No.41390839

>>41390711
So, in a thread on our forums when someone brought up "LFG isn't front-and-center" I said, "neither are subscriptions. We took both and integrated them." This somehow has become, "Roll20 is dumb, and only cares about money."

What happened here is that we tried to better unify both things into our core. MAYBE WE DID POORLY, but there is no statistical evidence of this yet (that said, a lot of complaints certainly have us looking at it).

The front page is going to change some because the styling breaks on smaller monitors (which was missed in beta). So you'll get a smaller head's up.

The UI of the old design was NOT INTUITIVE. AT ALL. Here's an example-- these double-bars, not unified, repeating areas "Community Forums, Community Forums". It was-- objectively-- bad. People liked our software, so they lived with it. It needed a fix. Are we to THE fix yet? No. But this was a step in the right direction.

>> No.41390922

>>41390749
I think it's more that we work on giant screens so we went with big and bold. Obviously too big and too bold. So we'll adjust.

>>41390783
We made a lot of changes based on Mentor (now Pro) feedback. We didn't implement every thing suggested, but we never do. You look at the feedback, go "this makes sense, this doesn't, there's no time for that" and move forward.

As for why it went live yesterday, we knew we needed to get some of this up and running before Gen Con / some upcoming announcements (nothing business-major, just cool stuff). We already had built in time after Gen Con to finish up things (more on the Compendium, the translation stuff, and woodshedding the design), so nothing's changed there other than we'll probably have more design time.

As for us ignoring Mentors... there wasn't THAT much feedback? I mean... don't get me wrong, we had probably two dozen responses, but for as big as we are... drop in the bucket. We've got a lot more now. :P

>> No.41390973

>>41390839
>The UI of the old design was NOT INTUITIVE. AT ALL. Here's an example-- these double-bars, not unified, repeating areas "Community Forums, Community Forums". It was-- objectively-- bad.

I'm sorry but...no. I can understand that it's redundant - and that it is in way a mess - but it worked. I've invited multiple people to r20 and they always learned to use the interface from the get-go, even with those small, messy bits. I'm not saying it was perfect - please, do get that idea that people want everything to stay the same forever, that's not the case - because it wasn't perfect. But it was simple and it worked. Again, right now, what you have feels messier and cluttered.

Nonetheless - let's be honest here, moving ot the LFG positioning and your integration. It's not a case of "Maybe you did it poorly". You did - else the backlash wouldn't be this violent. Criticism is always to be expected when you change things, yeah - but when it's this violent, it's a clear case something's wrong.

It is however, ultimately good to know that you'll fix the sizing issues. They're one of the main issues I have with the design right now.

>> No.41390978

>>41390922
I'm sure none of the Mentors suggested that the interface should continue to look like a half-loaded mobile page. Which it does.

>> No.41391003

>>41390922
I'm gonna sound like a dick, but there's a line between "big and bold" and "what were you thinking?" That line was crossed when you used what looks like 70+ point font for goddamn welcome message.

Everything fr

>> No.41391004

>>41390922
> but for as big as we are... drop in the bucket.

...erm.

Dude, aren't your mentors exclusively given acess to speaking with the Dev team directly and such? They're...your main paid supporters that are your source of income.

I wouldn't call their opinion "A drop in the bucket."

>> No.41391011

I dig the new layout.

>> No.41391088

>>41390465
>>41390581
>>41390716
Couple of concise criticisms/suggestions here, since I won't get banned for it here:

1. The font is too big. You could reduce it by 50% and still have everything visible.
2. You can merge the welcome back message and your logo to save space. It might even make the logo friendlier.
3. In addition to that, check out the layout on this site, for example:
http://te4.org/
You have everything largely in one place and plenty of room for pictures, as well as a pleasant colour scheme. A neutral colour like blue with light text is also far less stressful on the eyes to read. That's not my opinion, that's that of my eye doctor and several others in his field.
4. Monetisation
4.1.I don't mind it. What I don't feel like paying for is poor customer service and the feeling I'm being actively spited. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, but since the discussion of the site was closed down in one of the, honestly, tamest communities I have ever seen online, I've felt absolutely no incentive to purchase anything with the roll20 brand. The community of "us, gamers" was gone and what was left was a faceless, angry pitbull that lashed out at its users for the silliest infractions. I don't know about you, but I won't pay for that, no matter who does it.
4.2. Have you considered ad space? There are ways to put it unobtrusively into your layout, while retaining peak visibility. Just don't put it next to anything people click on a lot. That's cheap, they notice, and they say "fuck you". You don't want them to say that, though, you want them to make you shiny bling bling.

>>41390839
Change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing. Your old design, while not perfect, was better simply because one could see everything at one glance. Not having to scroll down endlessly is important for visibility and how a design would be received.

>> No.41391120

>>41391003
Man that looks ugly. Do you have Adblock taking out tweets or is it just not loading?

This is the design we're working off of. Still not there (and not, obviously, we rid ourselves of double bar).

>>41391004
Absolutely. It would be better to say... we didn't get as much MENTOR/PRO FEEDBACK as is possible with as big as THAT pool is. That said, we understand not everyone wants to play with the broken development server... many Pro users are just there for the API. Long story short, "I would have loved more Pro feedback. We got more pro feedback yesterday than we did during testing."

>> No.41391164

>>41391120

Ah, I get you. But again,as you said, ultimately a lot of people don't want to beta-test your design. I understand you mean about not having a lot of Pro/Mentor feedback then, but - honestly. You really cannot just ignore it because of numbers. I do know numbers play a big part on things - specially in a business, but you can clearly see that a lot of their criticism then are being reflected now. You'd have saved a lot of trouble for r20 if you guys had listened to them on some things - specially really basic shit like "It not looking good on their screen" , because, yeah.
>Man that looks ugly. Do you have Adblock taking out tweets or is it just not loading?

This IS how everything looks for us. As you said - pretty bad, isn't it? And a very simple thing to check out, too, if you had asked one of the Mentors for it.

>> No.41391204

>>41391164
A quick attendum- the tweets do appear, but in bloated boxes, and just two of them. And it leaves a fuckton of empty space.

>> No.41391213

>>41391088
1-3. I hear you.
4.1. We moderate tone a lot on our forums. Criticism is fine, but ALL CAPS "GRANDPA FONTS, YOU TYRANT" is never gonna fly. Mass banning's aren't new on our forums. We don't want to spend time moderating that could be spent on the real stuff (which is why we closed our off topic board). And we don't want you paying for that / focused on that. We want our virtual tabletop to be the focus. That's why we switched Mentor to Pro... focusing on the product over a title.
4.2. I wonder how folks come to this sort of question. "Hey, in three and a half years of doing this, have you ever considered this thing?" Of course! We tried it briefly, but we found it better to advertise subscriptions than try at ad revenue. We might take another stab at it now that we have more page views, but we'll see.

And yeah, the scroll needs fixin'.

>> No.41391238

>>41391120
Like one guy said earlier,
>The consultant's job is to basically give advice on how to better improve the site's design and the user's experience while organically bringing in more consumers.
A goal that, in many ways, was not achieved.

I'd have to agree with >>41390973 on a lot of things. The redundancies were annoying, an some things could be better integrated into each other, but LFG is a big part of the site, and absolutely needs to be front and center, plus a little "subscribe" button in the toolbar is generally less obtrusive than having a subscribe link whenever someone runs into something that's affected by a paid subscription. One of the key goals of UI design is reducing the amount of digging around someone has to do to find what they want. The three biggest ways of doing this are by minimizing the clicks and rollovers to get where you want, and by minimizing the amount of scrolling required. Going through a huge welcome banner is fine for something like Homestar Runner, but not so much for Roll20, where you want to get to the meat of things as quickly as possible. Think about what Facebook, Twitter, or Tumblr had a huge "Welcome to the show" banner that you had to scroll past in order to get to your feed.

And, I'm going to level with you 110% here: Large swathes of black text on a white background, and large, screen-filling letters /suck/. It's a crappy holdover from print media that's hard on the eyes. Most sites that have large amounts of black on white usually have darker borders (See: Wikipedia, TVTropes, Tumblr, Twitter, most of Wikia, Cracked, the old site, really just most websites in general). That's not just there to disguise filler. Switch to light text on a dark background.

That example actually isn't that bad, but I'd suggest smaller text, and, again, switch to light text on a dark background.

>> No.41391308

>>41385875

Yeah, OpenRPG was branched into Traipse, which looked promising for a while, then just died.
On the plus side, Rolisteam already looks nicer than Traipse did.

>>41387452

Ah, interesting, I didn't know about that. I did feel like the "we took the kickstarter money, and now we're just going to quit and build a proprietary app" thing felt kind of slimy.
It's a shame because the plan outlined in the KS for reworking Maptool into MOTE looked well thought out, and a really good direction to go in.

>> No.41391347

>>41391213
Honestly I assumed it was because of some kickstarter promise about not having ads or something. Anyway, here's a slighty edited reference pic of how my stuff looks on log-in. Edits only to preserve my anonymity on an open forum.

>> No.41391397

>You've played over 1921 hours in games using Roll20.
Holy fuck I'm wasting my life.

>> No.41391403

>>41391238
And as an addendum: I notice that layout is made with a portrait format in mind, with nothing to the sides.

Keep in mind that, outside of very specific fields that call for a portrait format screen, most computer displays are in landscape. You need to design with that assumption. Either use the sides of the screen do display more information (not always optimal, since you might give people an information overload), or just fill it something that's a different from the main body's background, just to break up the monotony.

>> No.41391404

>>41391347
>left your name showing in the upper right ta b anyway

Anon...

>> No.41391424

>>41391404
I know. That's so the dude can find it because that shit is probably logged. Anyone searching for it as a regular user is unlikely to, because I change it ever so often, and just did.

>> No.41391431

>>41391403
This guy here basically refined my points with more technical knowledge. Wholly agreed with him.

>> No.41391757

>>41391431
Not gonna lie, I'm mostly self-taught on this stuff (I've lived through the mass exodus of people leaving wikia after one of their major theme changes, as well as the many atrocious UI changes that Tumblr has made. With a combination of this and spending time on forums and IRC with people who work in the field, you pick stuff up, and learn to compare what works and what doesn't), with a bit of basic principles of design that I learned from a two-year digital art class I took back in high school.

Speaking of, here's a bit of visual hierarchy stuff: You don't want a tagline taking up more space on the page than both the site's logo and key information. Ever. That's tertiary information at best.

I should also add that hot pink on a black background is more aesthetically appealing than hot pink on white. Pink against a white background should be more of a pastel color, and you're usually better off the other way around - white against pastel pink.

I just realized that I know my shit well enough that I could be the web design equivalent of that one anon who bullshitted his way through an IT job by updating Adobe Reader whenever someone had a problem.

>> No.41391777

>>41391757
You could, yeah. Got the right combination of knowing some stuff and bullshitting the rest.

>> No.41392135

>>41385600

The actual app itself is using a javascript library called Fabric for most of its heavy lifting. Placing and moving object, stretching them, drawing, etc is mostly powered by fabirc, though obviously they're doing a lot of custom stuff with it.

Fabric is is a pretty nice library. I've used it at work for some projects, and it's been good to work with. Adding some menu buttons and a chat client would give you something close enough to roll20, though there would be some effort required.

Now storing saved data and making it easy to share with others is going to be the annoying part, along with sessioning things for mulitple users, though if you end goal is just to make something local like you imply in >>41385739
that's should be easier.

>> No.41392325

>>41391397

You could be like me and just accidentally leave the tab open after a session is over.

>> No.41392488

>>41391213

>DING DONG BANNU

Glad to hear Roll20 mods don't have to live up to the same code of conduct that everyone else does. Heaven forbid that hard-working dev team stop stealing code from Tumblr for one second to get some freelance-ass moderators to ding dong bannu for them. We should be so grateful.

>> No.41392512

Holy shit the new site is ugly.

>> No.41392914

It's not so bad when you do this.

>> No.41392931

>Someone makes a thread on the General forum for "general redesign discussion"
>"This thread will probably be closed."
>Thread is closed and everyone is told to post in the sticky for bugfixing.
>Posts in the stick are deleted if they're not about bugfixes.

Is Nolan still here? Fuck you. Seriously, fuck. you.

>> No.41393077

>>41392931
We don't allow any prediction of moderator action. "I bet I'll get X'd for this," will always result in a ban. If there's every a thread where that hasn't happened, it's an oversight.

We still have feedback threads going in the Pro forums, the Suggestions forums, and two in General.

>> No.41393111

Nolan is shit... But is there even anyone on the Roll20 team that isn't totally incompetent? There has to be someone at least trying to fix this shit, they can't all be retarded can they?

>> No.41393156

>>41393077
Do I need to point to >>41385017

We GAVE YOU feedback on the Mentor forums. You chose to say "lol no our designer friend thinks ur wrong" and ignore absolutely all of it.

Look, I know you're so interested in keeping a squeeky-clean, family-friendly censored forum where no one is really sure what they can and can't say, but have you ever considered just for a minute letting people actually speak their mind on these issues?

Look dude, you have not read a SINGLE WORD that people have said. You have pushed every single bit of critique aside with "Well, you're just a small percentage of our users" because you know in your hear that you're right and everyone is wrong. Which is why you're not good at your job, and which is why this is going to cost you members.

Seriously, take an afternoon. Make a thread yourself where people can be honest and respond without censorship from you and your mod team, and fucking READ WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.

Try it. Please, I'm begging you. Join us in reality.

>> No.41393166

>>41393077
"We don't allow any prediction of moderator action"

Why?

>> No.41393167

>>41393077

>We don't allow any prediction of moderator action. "I bet I'll get X'd for this," will always result in a ban.

Is that why the entire thread was closed for one infraction?

>> No.41393211

>>41393077

>> No.41393314

>>41393156
There was positive reaction as well.

In terms of listening... I mean, I'm here. On 4chan. Where I can't ban or moderate in any way. With our forums, we have ongoing needs (not just right after an update where there's harsh reaction) and we've made the choice to keep a high standard there.

>>41393167
>>41393166
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy thing, and it's NEVER anything good. If someone starts, "HEY, I KNOW I'M TRYING TO BE A JERK..." It's... "not to be a dick, but..." well, don't. Don't be a dick.

Plenty of people are giving feedback in ways that aren't crummy.

>> No.41393332

>>41393314
"Only give feedback if the feedback sucks our dick and gives us an icecream too"

>> No.41393375

Do people really care this much about the frontpage layout? So what if it's aimed towards tablets...?

Not like you should be spending much time outside of the launcher itself, so what difference does it make?

Or is it because all of these mentors don't actually run games because they're too autistic and demanding to actually draw in players? Seriously, why is everyone so fucking buttblasted? "MUH FEEDBACK." Yeah, okay, they got your feedback -- now they're gonna launch and see the feedback of everyone else.

What brilliant business practice would it be to acknowledge some neckbeard with too much disposable income without putting their own decisions first? Who cares if you pay them extra... you get perks for it, and if you honestly think that the Mentors are some sort of pseudo-employees then you're fucking retarded.

With that out of the way, I'm not particularly fond of the layout. But I don't mind it, because I'm rarely looking at the roll20 website itself. Maybe this diminishes my opinion somewhat, but still...

I don't see what the big deal is.

>> No.41393425

>>41393375
>I don't see what the big deal is.

AUTISM.

>> No.41393453

>>41393314

Holy shit. That is not what happened in >>41393167, and you fucking know it.

>> No.41393461

>>41393314
>There was positive reaction as well.
No. No there isn't. Seriously, show me ONE example of someone overall have any large positive criticism. The most I've seen is "I don't hate the new design". And yet that is what you choose to give more credibility to, because it's more valuable to you than critique. You're interested in ass-pats, not fixing shit.

>In terms of listening... I mean, I'm here. On 4chan.
Being defensive about everything and not actually taking anything on board.

I'm dead serious, after reading this entire thread of people saying your design is dogshit and laughing at your handling of the forums, what are you going to do? What are you going to change after being here? Nothing, right? You haven't learned anything from this thread other than "lol 4chan uses bad words, ok back to locking threads on my forums".

>we have ongoing needs... and we've made the choice to keep a high standard there.
And we're all laughing at you.

>It's... "not to be a dick, but..." well, don't. Don't be a dick.
To you, being critical, is being "a dick".

>Plenty of people are giving feedback in ways that aren't crummy.
Yeah, we did on the Mentor forum. You didn't listen to it. You're not listening now.

When you solicit opinions and feedback, and people give it to you nicely, and you proceed to ignore it completely and proceed, then you turn around and say "So, how do you like it?", people tend to stop being nice with their feedback. They're still being HONEST, mind you, they're just no longer interesting in being cordial, because you just ignored them the last time.

>> No.41393506

>>41393375
>>41393425
You're like that guy on /v/ who comes into a thread to post "lol i dunno why you guys care about videogames so much they're just for fun stop being autistic", right?

>> No.41393578

>>41393461
One example.

We're actively working on the front page right now, based on feedback. There will be a new front page in seconds.

Being critical is not being a dick. Being a dick is being a dick.

>> No.41393611

>>41390711

The only reason he's here ITT is because it got linked on the roll20 subreddit. And to no one's surprise the attitude there was "fuck us up the ass more! We'll even pay!"

>> No.41393628

>>41393578
Saying "this thread will probably be closed" is not being a dick. Closing that thread because you're scared of what's to come is being a dick.

Grow up and act professional.

>> No.41393644

>>41393314
Out of curiosity, have you received ANY positive feedback regarding the switch from Mentor/Supporter to Pro/Plus? Every now and then we've got people saying they like the new design aesthetic, for sure, but that's the only positive feedback I've seen, and that's really chalked up to taste.

I mean, I sort of understand the design philosophy behind it, but it just seems like another case of fixing what isn't broken. Was there an outcry or negative social divide between the different user groups? Did you honestly anticipate one or did somebody just smile and nod somewhere?

>> No.41393649

>>41393578
>Ignores everything else I said.
Slick.

>Being critical is not being a dick. Being a dick is being a dick.
So you only listen to critique which is preceded by "I love the site guys! But here's a thing you may want to try if you have the free time in your busy schedule...."

>> No.41393682

>>41393628

>Saying "this thread will probably be closed" is not being a dick.

Maybe not, but it is pretty meta, though. We have rules against meta threads here for good reason -- that kind of bullshit exists solely to stir up pointless drama.

>> No.41393687

>>41393578
I used to like you. You came here and asked for opinions and feedback.

Okay, so Roll20 is shit now and MapTools has always been shit. Is Tabletop Simulator actually any good at all?

>> No.41393706

Is this whole thing going to have to be like the "folders" fiasco? Where its going to take months of drilling into their heads that this decision is counter-intuitive for ease of use and needs to be changed?

>> No.41393707

>>41393375
>I don't care, so other people are X for caring
>I don't use the thing being discussed

Thanks for the input I guess

>> No.41393721

>>41393506

Not at all, really.

I get the frustration but the man is running a business. And the change is so fucking miniscule and unimportant... like I'd understand if he warped the roll20 launcher and made it look like shit... yeah, that'd piss me off... but we're talking about a website here. A website used pretty much solely to GET to the launcher, and very little else besides some forum posts and shit.

All I've gained out of this is the fact that Mentors feel like entitled pieces of shit. I fork out enough for a subscription every year and all I expect is some dynamic lighting and more space... what the hell do Mentors expect, does it say "part time employee and consultant that we will listen to 100% and take their advice without question?"

Jesus fucking christ, people. Roll20 is a pretty awesome thing, doubly awesome because it's fucking free, but all you can complain about is the fact that your gripes weren't acknowledged until AFTER the thing was launched.

Sorry Nolan. Chin up my man.

>> No.41393740

>>41393682
More likely in this case it's an offhand remark and an eyeroll next to the actual content of the thread.

The worst it warrants is an edited post. If they actually say something later that truly warrants a ban or closed thread, do it then.

>> No.41393761

>>41393721
Settle down. It's hard for Nolan to fuck his website and make an ass of himself on a public website with your tongue so far up his ass.

>> No.41393806

>>41393644
Here's the thread about that: https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/2181716/mentors-the-forums-and-community-changes-dot-dot-dot

I think overall we've been pleasantly surprised folks are understanding? Not everyone LIKES it, for sure.

As far as what was broken... *we* couldn't update everything simply because the multiple sites, the ununified design, etc. And the worst part of that was that we couldn't get the site translated into other languages.

>> No.41393811

>>41393578
Please be more clear about what you see as being uncritical and just a dick, because there's clearly a bit of a dependency between what most people consider being critical and what you consider being critical.

Thats not to say you aren't getting people being an ass to you, that's clearly happening, but you can't just lump in general concerns with that crowd, and whether or not you feel as if you are doing it, your community does, and you need to try to resolve that.

>> No.41393846

>>41393811

Don't bother, he's not going to answer. Especially when his little yuppies can do it for him:

> Discussion is always necessary for the best results but someone apparently needs to talk to you about having civil discourse without undue aggression.

>> No.41393860

>>41393811
If you refuse to listen to people who are "being an ass to you" because you believe that tone and critical content are one in the same, you do not have any place in a position of any kind of authority.

I'm sorry. This man doesn't do his job well, because he's more interested in people saying nice things than people saying helpful things.

>> No.41393873

>>41393706
Folders is something we really resisted. I don't think we have resistance to making adjustments here. Especially now since it's easier with the site unified.

>>41393721
Gracias.

>>41393811
I don't think there's any reason for folks to be rude / angry about this change. Particularly as we haven't run this thing into the ground previously. I understand why people have concerns, but there's a lot of out-and-out venom that's not necessary.

>> No.41393877

>>41391120

Holy shit, is that pic related the Roll20 design now? It looks like something you'd expect out of a corporate office.

Nolan, when people go to your site they want something warm and inviting, not the harsh glare of a white screen with soulless "integrated features" behind buttons after buttons.

But here's the question I suppose I need answered: WHY did you move the Looking for Group button, which is literally 1-click away on the old site, behind "Games?"

Because it feels redundant, which is ironic because you said a major reason you changed the old design was fixing redundancy. At the moment Games only includes campaigns you joined and LFG... The former of which used to be presented right on the front page in that convenient lower left white space, while the other was its own button, labeled "Looking for Group."

So again, why was it necessary to remove that and put them into a drop-down that does literally the same thing, only uglier? And please, for brownie points answer this is one sentence, I'm hearing a lot of corporate talk being flung around here and I just need it answered plain.

>> No.41393886

>>41393806
Why was your site so horrible from a technical perspective to begin with? And if it was bad then, why should I believe you're any more capable now? It sounds like you had issues with planning your design from the start.

>> No.41393888

Did they actually change the interface in any way that makes it harder to actually play the games you're running, or are you fuckers just making mountains out of molehills again?

>> No.41393923

>>41393806
>This has increasingly lead to confusion in regards to why someone on the forums with the title, “Mentor” might be unhelpful towards a new user.
Alright, that makes a lot more sense, but it's a cold reality, I feel. R20 has started pretty small and the community, as you mentioned, was really rather constructive and integral in the early stages, which is why Mentor seemed like a good term. Changing it away makes me personally feel as if you expect that positive nature to go away as we grow, and that really bites.

I really wish we could be at a point where we could maintain that early feeling of community, just with a larger pool of people.

>> No.41393937

>>41393877

>Nolan, when people go to your site they want something warm and inviting, not the harsh glare of a white screen with soulless "integrated features" behind buttons after buttons.

This is some pretentious fucking bullshit, man.

When I log on to roll20 I just look for the quickest way to "launch application." I couldn't fucking care less about the layout of the website.

>> No.41393940

>>41393721

Holy shit, Nolan's ass has developed a membrane of your fucking saliva, dude. We get it, they finally changed the size 72 WELCOME BACK ADVENTURER after 24 hours of hard asspat-worthy labor.

>> No.41393942

>>41393846
>>41393860
Moderating a comment does not mean we didn't read it (quite the opposite). It just means we don't want things of that tone. We've gotten important content from shitty comments, it's just... shitty they're being shitty.

>> No.41393948

>>41393888
The website design is annoying. Everyone makes mistakes, though.

But their reaction to feedback is just horrible. I don't think this would've happened if they listened to their mentors to begin with.

>> No.41393949

>>41393888
The website is that badly done. Anyone who has even remotely bothered with webdev has their autism flare up.

Shit, the sign out button gives a 404 error for instance.

>> No.41393954

>>41393888

A tiny bit of the former, a whole shitload of the latter.

>> No.41393972

>>41393937
Just because you're a fucking idiot doesn't mean the entire human race is.

>> No.41393976

>>41393888
The latter.

I'm no fan of Nolan or his draconian forum policing, the way he fishes for compliments and praise while ignoring valid criticism because of "muh feelings", but this shit isn't gamebreaking.

It'd be nice if the UI was better designed, or even have a toggle to make the white black so I'm not blinded at 2am by an intense white pseudo-sun.

But it's a molehill. A very annoying molehill, but a molehill.

>> No.41393987

>>41393949
They fixed most of the problems people talked about this morning, and they've even changed the terrible "Welcome back, brave adventurer!" thing now.

Now it's down to bitching about aesthetic and people feeling their input was ignored.

>> No.41393990

>>41393873
>Don't be rude
Fair, I guess. People have different sensitivities.

>Don't be angry
Okay, I'm going to be rude here. This is fucking stupid. You can't deny people from providing feedback because they don't like the thing you're asking for feedback for. That's the point.

>> No.41393995

>>41393942
When you moderate a comment you deem negative in "tone", you are inherently discarding it's content. You may read it, but you sure as fuck are not understanding it.

Again, I'm pretty sure your reading process involves scanning a post for bad words, and if you find none, saying "Hey, thanks!" and if you find something you think is 'mean', you delete it and move on.

Because you sure as fuck have not learned anything from this thread.

>> No.41394001

>>41393942

Welcome to the motherfucking internet. If you can't handle the fact not everyone is going to sugarcoat their opinions then get the fuck out. But don't come crying to us or your former paying subscribers when your hugbox crashes and burns

>> No.41394018

>>41393888

From loading it on my tablet earlier (this was this morning, mind you), it was actually much easier to navigate than before. Only glaring problem was that when I tried to click login it kept collapsing the email/username prompt.

Probably fixed that by now, but I haven't checked. Game isn't until Friday.

You have the right of it though, for the most part. It's mostly buttblasted Mentors thinking that they're co-executives or something.

>> No.41394019

>>41393976
>but this shit isn't gamebreaking.
It is when my entire group doesn't even want to bother with the website anymore.

>> No.41394044

>>41393877
We think LFG works better grouped into various game areas (like when you're on a page looking at starting a game, we go, "hey, want to find a game?"). WE MAY BE WRONG. That's one that'll take a minute to figure out, but we'll have data to help.

>>41393886
I mean, it was fine when it was 2000 people. There's a million now. Thousands more wiki pages, campaign pages, etc.

>>41393923
You and me both. We literally didn't have a ban feature in our forums for the first... like year and a half?

>> No.41394056

>>41394019
You already have a group. Just send them the link to the game proper. The in-game UI is unchanged, and any group that is breaking up due to this is a shitty group in the first place.

>> No.41394060

>>41394019

Tell your group to stop being a huge gaggle of fucking drama queens, fan themselves on their couches until the vapors pass, and get over it.

>> No.41394077

>>41394044
Why can't I ban people from my games, or even remove people?

>> No.41394079

>>41394044
But that just sounds like you didn't plan ahead for the potential scaling up of users.

>> No.41394093

>>41394044
You guys just removed the "welcome back" thing right? Looks way better now.

>> No.41394113

>>41394079

As a former programmer, scaling issues are seriously hard. It's closely related to optimization, you might try to optimize a program, but until you have actual testing done, you may be wasting hours optimizing the wrong things and just have to start over afterwards.

>> No.41394150

>>41394077
You should be able to kick players. Hover over them on the main Game page.

>>41394079
There was a point where we kept hitting the ceiling on our servers and we were pretty pissed at our hosts. Their response was, "You're growing faster than Facebook did their first year. We have never had a company move this quickly." (Obvious note: we'll never be 1/4th that big.. we're a niche product. But our niche really like the product.) This has all been a learning curve, and we've done pretty well learning.

>>41394093
And a few other tweaks, yup!

>> No.41394181

>>41394113
Some of the problems he mentioned are easy to predict, however -- such as language translation. Even if he can't afford to translate immediately, the site should be programmed with /potential/ translating in mind to ease the transition.

>> No.41394215

>>41394150
We just had a problem player who trolled one of our games. We kicked him. He kept the tab open and just kept harassing us and posting dick pictures. We had to make a new game.

Could you say if this is at least an issue you intend to resolve in the future?

>> No.41394229

>>41394215
>Could you say if this is at least an issue you intend to resolve in the future?

It's not.

>> No.41394256

>>41394150

Yup, much better. LFG in the forefront and clear, and things are smaller. Only thing that I'd recommend changing now would be the drab white background, or something along the sides - it still looks unfinished.

>> No.41394267

>>41394215
Yes. A harder force-kick is on the development list for next update.

>> No.41394269

So much better. Keep up the fixes. Maybe add some nice colour in there somewhere.

It's starting to look more like a professional site again.

>> No.41394274

>>41394150

>You should be able to kick players. Hover over them on the main Game page.

Personally had an experience with this very recently. It does not work if they're still in the game. In fact, they can stay in there so long as they keep the window open and continue posting like a fucking Roll20 poultergeist. I'm guessing that doing this to some people will just make them more vindictive, and no matter how much music you play, they'll stick it out as long as they can. The only way to actually get rid of them is copying and extending the campaign over to a new shell.

And if I want you to actually listen to that, I have to suck your dick, right?

>> No.41394289

>>41393940
>>41393761

You know, I used to think /tg/ was a bastion of sanity in the narcissistic cesspit that is 4chan. You guys were the ones that roped me back into tabletop, after a traumatizing experience at a "F"LGS when I first started out in the hobby.

I had almost given up. But I came across /tg/, and you guys were helpful. You didn't judge. A few laughs were thrown my way when I asked about help playing D&D (not too unlike the guys at the FLGS, who, and I quote, said: "You play D&D? Only fucking faggots play that unbalanced shit. Are you a fucking faggot?"), but for the most part you were helpful.

I don't know what has changed. Reading all these posts have disturbed me. You're acting like narcissistic children. Your responses to anyone with a differing opinion are vulgar insults with no thought behind them.

No, I don't like the layout, but that suddenly means I'm a staunch supporter of someone I never knew existed prior to this? Because I understand why he did what he did?

The worst part of it all is the fact that the complaints in question are so fucking minuscule. And the entitlement people are feeling because their complaints weren't immediately acknowledged before presented to the greater community is astounding.

And anyone who thinks that roll20 has "draconian" moderation policies? Well, most forums do have some sort of moderation beyond banning illegal things. Not everywhere can be 4chan, and SOMETIMES THIS IS A GOOD THING, because look at this fucking mess of a thread. It's pathetic, it accomplishes nothing, and it amounts to little more than entitled people bitching and moaning about practically nothing.

>> No.41394311

>>41394269
I'm hoping for more of that sweet purple to make it in.

>>41394274
No dick suckage necessary. Heard (and I'm in a chat with Riley right now and he said it's already on his short list of things being worked on).

>> No.41394328

>>41394044

Hate to say it, but you're very much wrong. There was literally nothing wrong with the way Played Campaigns and LFG were placed in the old site.

The games tab in general isn't needed at all, it's function was done, much more ergonomically mind you, by the LFG button and showing the complete list of campaigns one is in on their front page.

Why am I even saying this? You aren't listening to us Nolan, you have proven that much for the past 40 posts. This is why people are getting mad, Nolan, not because you changed things but because you changed things and hide your reasons behind corporate jargon and demands for us to "play nice." If there's one thing people hate it's not being heard, and the Mentors/users now certainly don't feel like they're being heard.

I mean sure you could argue we're just a drop in the bucket, which is an EXCEPTIONALLY rude thing to tell people their opinions don't matter, but between the brown-nosers and people who are just willing to "deal with it" and enter a state of quiet discontent, you're not going to get a whole lot of criticism for these changes beyond people mad enough to make their voices heard, which WILL come across as angry.

So please, don't equate "it's just a drop in the bucket" complaining as most people are fine with the change, because most people who use your product are willing to grumble and "bear it" rather than complain.

>> No.41394357

>>41394311
>Sweet purple slightly fading into pink, as the logo
Yes. Just a bit of it.

It's getting better but you need to keep tabs on what posts you're deleting (I've seen a few decent posts with constructive criticism get cut for reasons unknown.) I won't press for details, but know that it looks bad. You're starting to unfuck it, don't refuck it.

>> No.41394359

>>41394289
Settle down. The thread has been productive apart from some people typing one-liners in all caps. Bugger off with your drama, discussion's actually being productive.

>> No.41394386

>>41394289
It's literally just you and one troll. Calm down with your meta shit.

>> No.41394393

>>41394359
Has it? Nolan literally has not even indicated that he actually read any of the real, critical feedback that's been leveled at him and his site, but just keeps responding to smaller titdbits hoping that if he ignores the real meat of the thread, it will go away and he can go back to pretending everyone loves the site.

Seriously, I'm waiting for a fucking answer: What have you ACTUALLY learned from this thread, Nolan?

>> No.41394397

>>41394289

It's usually better than this, but summerfags.

(Bum bum, bum-bum-bum bum, bum-bum-bum bum, bum-bum buuuuuum.)

>> No.41394403

>>41394393

he learned that /tg/ is a bunch of autistics who should be avoided at all costs

>> No.41394407

>>41394386
>Whole thread has been hugely fucking critical of the website and how the rollout has been handled by the moderation team
>Tons and tons of heavy feedback on the shitty designs and policing of the forums.

>All of this has been swept under the run and is reduced to "it's just one troll".

Yeah, I think we're done here.

>> No.41394416

>>41394328
I've explained our reasoning for changes. Several times. Sorry you don't feel heard. Hope our changes in the coming weeks will help with that.

>>41394357
Just FYI-- deleted posts don't actually "delete." Normal users aren't able to read them, but they exist for us developers normally. So they remain very present.

>> No.41394432

>>41394393
Sizing issues, basic frontpage organization and LFG at the forefront, for one? This was a big part of our criticisms here, dude. He hasn't adressed everything, no - but you can't say some of it was adressed either.

>> No.41394435

Is there a collected, easy to read list somewhere of all the current broken features or problems that have been reported? I've seen a couple things that are broken, and I'd like to report them, but I don't want to be redundant.

>> No.41394451

>>41394150
Please tell me you're taking the color scheme change bit of advice into account? Light text on a more neutral color background like a dark blue, grey, or green would be swell. As would the sidebar bit.

>> No.41394454

>>41394416
>I've explained our reasoning for changes. Several times. Sorry you don't feel heard. Hope our changes in the coming weeks will help with that.

This is the text equivalent of a ":^)".

>> No.41394456

>>41394416
>Just FYI-- deleted posts don't actually "delete." Normal users aren't able to read them, but they exist for us developers normally. So they remain very present.
That's not what I was concerned about. Don't delete constructive posts if you're trying to build your communities trust in you. I don't care if moderators can still see them.

Censored comments aren't present in a light you want them to be in.

>> No.41394482

>>41394393
The thing I'm seeing most consistently is concern about looking for group. Which has changed on the site over the course of this conversation.

(This also took care of the much-mocked "Brave Adventurer" mega pic.)

I also think I personally need to do a better job of making certain folks know banning doesn't equate to not being heard.

>> No.41394512

>>41394482
>The thing I'm seeing most consistently is concern about looking for group.

Yeah. And this is how I know you're either illiterate, or not interested in fucking criticism.

>> No.41394534

>>41394512
What would you like me to take from this thread?

>> No.41394544

>>41394482
>The thing I'm seeing most consistently is concern about looking for group.


...No. It's one of our main concerns, sure, but the other just as major ones were the bloated text (granted solved) and the currently bad color scheme of black on white.

>> No.41394565

>>41394393

If you want him to address something, say it to him plain and in a way that demands a concise answer devoid of weasel words or nebulous promises.

Don't just say "listen to us," say exactly what you want answered in one sentence or less. This is Mock Trial 101, give a question that can be answered in a yes or no or short blurb.

>> No.41394574

>>41394534
Visual Hierarchy, and minimalize the clicks required to get around the site. More important information should be larger. LFG gets a relatively tiny button on the front page and another one in the Games dropdown, when it's something that should be part of the main navigation bar.

>> No.41394590

>>41394416

>we explained our changes several times.

The fact you needed to say it several times, and people are STILL asking for a reason, should tell you the explanations given aren't working.

>> No.41394638

>>41394482
Here's my suggestion. Work on transparency and organizing your community. Put a link somewhere on the front page. "Welcome to our new layout! Click here to leave feedback!" or something along those lines. On this linked page, list all of the common comments -- thus proving they're heard -- and things being worked on -- reducing repeated reports and requests. Then, from there, link whatever megathreads exist for people who wish to say something new or more complex.

>> No.41394640

>>41394534

Not the same guy.

Criticism has been getting harsh. But not too long ago it was a lot more constructive. Don't brush it off as nothing and then get flabberghasted people are now angry.

You should have listened the first time.

>> No.41394645

>>41394574
Yeah, I can see how the LFG button is a good example of something that could be raised in the visual hierarchy / the "From the Dev Team" text could be smaller.

>> No.41394659

>>41394534
>What would you like me to take from this thread?
Maybe that you had asked yourself this question when I first posed it to you >>41393461

How about that your design is literally only tolerable at 60-75% zoom to begin with? How about that you solicited our critique and feedback for over a month, and did literally nothing with it?

I told you how miserable your "nav" bar was, and the fact that you removed clicking the word Community as a straight line to the forums, and now force the dropdown is even more miserable. Stop adding extra clicks and searching for links to everything, dude, this isn't 1995. I told you no one gives a shit about your blog posts being easier to find than the link to the forums. I told you that the semantics you used made no sense, yet you carry over all these ridiculous "legacy" terms that really need to be fixed. Your forum paginates before there's even enough posts to create a new page. You don't have a link directly to the most recent page of posts on the actual forum, so you have to click through the thread and then click through to the last page just to get to anything new.

Come on, guys, this is kindergarden stuff. I could go on for days about all the terrible design choices, but what I want you to think about is WHY YOU DON'T SEEM TO CARE.

>> No.41394674

>>41394534
Stop silencing criticism because it makes you feel sad. When you fuck up, which you most assuredly have with this update, let the community actually express itself rather than plugging your fingers in your ears and pretending nothing happened.

>> No.41394720

>>41394659
Oh, let me add:

You have officially silenced dissent on the forums. I hop you're aware of this. 100% of the forums, which includes people arriving for the first time and not being present for the last day or so, will see "New" posts about the design and discussion for it, and will see ALL of them locked by you.

No one is going to make a new thread for fear of being silenced or censored. You will not here a word of feedback from your forum anymore.

You did this. You told them not to speak. That was you choice.

>> No.41394749

>>41394534
What I think you should take from the thread is the first 150 or so posts. The proof that the beta testers pointed out issues that were not solved. The fact that, to people who use roll20, you're coming across as money hungry. That if someone is angry about something, there's probably a good reason for it, and it should not be dismissed.

Most importantly, you need to stop ignoring the posts or part of posts that address significant complaints and instead addressing a tiny part of them that isn't all that significant.

Oh, and be a professional, meaning what >>41394674 said.

Honestly, I acted like this when I was 13. You're an adult, act like it and take some responsibility.

>> No.41394817

>Incoming Nolan ignoring everything.

>> No.41394826

>>41394749
Of course, because of
>Most importantly, you need to stop ignoring the posts or part of posts that address significant complaints
this will likely be ignored too.

>> No.41394841

>>41394817
Hey man, I'm pissed, but he at least listened to most of my shit.

>> No.41394842

>>41394817
Read everything. We have never been able to incorporate everything thrown at us, but I can tell we did a poor job letting people know what was incorporated / why we did it.

We'll keep working on it.

>> No.41394892

>>41394749

Honestly it reminds me more of politicians or verbally abusive spouses than an edgy 13 year old.

It's honestly distressing how you could say your problems again and again and again only to either get ignored or given a non-answer, and then at the end of it be told your opinion not only doesn't matter, but will get locked at the first sign of trouble.

Oh but it's okay because later on down the road, when people have either quit the site or settled into angry acceptance, you can give the same criticism and be told "where were you when this was an issue? The site's still here, I know the update was shaky but hey, it works!"

This is another reason why people are angry, Nolan. We're yelling to get our voices heard because we KNOW we're working on borrowed time.

>> No.41394898

>>41394842
Your best bet right now is to issue an apology for silencing dissent on your forums and stop locking threads. You might be able to save some face that way.

>> No.41394935

>>41394892
Huh, I guess I acted like a verbally abusive politician spouse when I was a kid then.

That's... Pretty disturbing, actually.

>> No.41394940

This whole thread, man...

>> No.41394944

>>41394534

Let the community moderate itself in some manner. Just get some responsible people from the forums to go through posts. Because, let's be real, ever since someone hurt a consultant's precious ego, you guys haven't been so great at handling communities. As devs, you guys really should be doing development, and not overseeing the entire community at the same time.

>> No.41394945

>>41394842
>We'll keep working on it.

Keep working on what? Because

>we did a poor job letting people know what was incorporated / why we did it.

Does not sound like "We're seeing what works and what doesn't, and fix accordingly", it sounds like "this change is final and all we're doing here is giving our reasons why it's final, stop complaining."

>> No.41394960

I don't understand how other people's posts that are much more positive and concise than mine, are getting swept up, while mine are still fine even if I say we look like we've been done by a teenage blogger.

I'm afraid to ask, but are they being cleaned up because they mention the possibility of those users discontinuing their Mentor/Pro status due to this change?

>> No.41394971

>>41394842
>We have never been able to incorporate everything thrown at us
First, this isn't about "incorperating ideas". Most of this shit is Web Dev 101. If your retard friend who did your design couldn't get basic shit like "Don't add more clicks to get from A to B than there were on your previous iteration", then you wasted your money, because that guys is a fucking idiot. And I sincerely hope you interpret that as a "personal attack", because it really is. Whoever did this design has no clue what they're doing.

> but I can tell we did a poor job letting people know what was incorporated / why we did it.
That is the LEAST important thing you failed at.

What's absolutely more important is the fact that you started fucking locking and deleting posts that brought up any sort of criticism, which basically tells everyone "Yeah, you guys just gotta deal with it, this is how it is now. No talking about it.", and when people came to places like /tg/ to bitch about you being a bitch, you came here and just started brushing off the exact same feedback. The problem is, this time it's coming from REAL FUCKING PEOPLE and not just the "small number" of Mentors, our critique you ignored months ago.

>We'll keep working on it.
If "working on it" means doing what you've been doing? Jesus christ, I feel sorry for you.

>> No.41394988

>>41394960
>I'm afraid to ask, but are they being cleaned up because they mention the possibility of those users discontinuing their Mentor/Pro status due to this change?

Nolan has already confirmed this was all a money-grab in the first thread on this issue, he's just in full Politician Speak at the moment which means ignoring the positive answers and getting righteously indignant at the ones he can easily feel offended by.

He is *not* listening to advice in this thread, if he was we wouldn't still be saying the exact same problems and hoping for an answer.

>> No.41395001

>>41394945
Not at all the case. We will absolutely be seeing what works and what doesn't and fix accordingly. As we always have. We have fixed things today already. That won't stop.

Re: comments about not moderating our forums, it's more likely we remove our forums (which we don't want to do; particularly to help folks with bugs). But this has made me think we should do a better job helping folks express themselves without devolving into flaming.

>> No.41395040

>Thread at 300+ replies, already in auto-sage.
>Thread will die and all content therein will vanish.
>Might as well never have happened, because Nolan's feelings got hurt so he's gonna go back to Roll20 like nothing ever happened.

Yeah, I'll be pulling my sub.

>> No.41395044

>>41395001
Oh, I see. So you haven't actually learned anything from this thread. You'll keep on silencing dissent so the fucking idiot that you hired to do your redesign doesn't feel bad, and nothing will get better.

>> No.41395060

>>41395040

Just post archive links if anyone wants to see it.

>> No.41395064

>>41395001
I want help to easily express my concerns while being efficiently informed of what's already being worked on.

You know, the vote system on the suggestions forum is fantastic. Reusing something like it could really help to organize things!

>> No.41395086

>>41394971
>Yeah, you guys just gotta deal with it, this is how it is now. No talking about it

It's funny because another developer in a thread handling bugs said this exact thing about the changes.

Beyond a few touch-ups here and there "this is what the site is now."

>>41395001
>But this has made me think we should do a better job helping folks express themselves without devolving into flaming.

... You think "you guys are idiots and here's why" is flaming?

You actually think that's flaming? Holy shit, you either haven't been on a proper forum long or you know their criticism has bite. Flaming is VERY different from getting angry at a terrible design decision, EVERYTHING we have been saying in this thread has been said on your forums, and curiously enough every time it's been said those threads have been deleted.

You are NOT giving advice, you are NOT fixing things people say need fixed, and you are NOT listening to us.

Can someone actually give this hothead a clear, concise list of problems that can't be weaseled out of? Because that's exactly what he's been doing this entire thread.

>> No.41395092

>>41394971

>, this time it's coming from REAL FUCKING PEOPLE and not just the "small number" of Mentors, our critique you ignored months ago.

Nah, it's still mostly coming from mentors regurgitating the same shit that was ignored before.

The general populace of the roll20 community doesn't give a shit about the layout. Oh, it sucks, whatever, move on. Websites do redesigns constantly and it's almost always negatively received.

This has more to do with "LISTEN TO ME! LISTEN TO ME! *waves hands around frantically* MY OPINION MEANS SOMETHING!" and less "this is a terrible, terrible decision that will negatively affect roll20."

Because only mentors really care about something like this. They need a sense of worth, a sense that their money is well spent. They need to feel like their opinion matters.

Meanwhile everyone else shrugs, enjoys their unchanged in-game roll20 experience and goes on with life...

>> No.41395102

>>41395001
>But this has made me think we should do a better job helping folks express themselves without devolving into flaming.

Dude, seriously. Letting people speak their mind doesn't inherently mean there will be any 'devolving into flaming".

And even still, who the fuck cares? It's much healthier to let people speak their fucking minds with the basic rule of "Keep it somewhat civil", rather than have a whole forum population just stop talking because they know you're going to silence anything they say that isn't "Hey Roll20 Staff, you're doin' great! :^)"

You may SAY that you read deleted comments, but that doesn't stop the forum population from seeing that you have no qualms silencing dissent, which means they will have no reason to speak at all.

>> No.41395112

>>41394960
I don't think any threads that said they were canceling got deleted. Certainly wouldn't be a *reason* we'd delete a thread.

https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/125912/roll20-community-code-of-conduct

I think I should probably stop responding (I'll keep reading if folks get to this later), mostly because at this point I'm being personally attacked instead of much discussion about the site. Obviously have plenty of work to do.

Take care, /tg/, and thanks to those of you who gave constructive criticism (and those who said nice things too)!

>> No.41395140

>>41395112
Go fuck yourself, and tell your idiot friend to go fuck himself too. You fucking coward.

>> No.41395143

>>41395092
>Because only mentors really care about something like this. They need a sense of worth

Oh go fuck yourself.

Honestly, show of hands in here, how many people are Mentors?

>> No.41395146

>>41394817
Apparently, just nearly everything. You were close though.

Nolan: I say this without anger, merely as something you have lead me to believe:
You are a terrible person. You are not suited to the role you have. You cannot take criticism, dismissing it as flaming or trolling, or you ignore it outright, when Roll20 relies on criticism. I will not support you in this or any future ventures.


>>41395086
Several people have tried. He just straight up ignores them.

>> No.41395153

>>41395112
Op here, I actually agree a bit. It's gotten a little out of hand in the last handful of pages. I would prefer if you were dealing with problems R20-side.

Remember that it's not an excuse.

>> No.41395159

Flipping the record over for a second - I'd much rather see improvements to the mapping capacity of roll20. As incredibly annoying as the change to the website layout is, that doesn't infringe upon the ability to actually deliver a good gaming experience.

What I'd personally love to see - as would many others - is an actual layering ability when designing maps, so that mapping does not devolve into a clusterfuck of not being able to select what you want and simple changes of layering taking half an hour because of how basic the system is. Any other r20 GMs about to chip in on this?

>> No.41395163

>>41395112

Don't bother coming back until you learn how the internet works, especially 4chan.

>> No.41395164

>>41395143
Not I!

>> No.41395166

>>41395112
>and thanks to those of you who gave constructive criticism (and those who said nice things too)!

You absolute fucking douche. You just had to go shoot yourself in the foot right at the end, didn't you? You couldn't resist.

Fuck you.

>> No.41395177

>>41395112
>mostly because at this point I'm being personally attacked instead of much discussion about the site.

Can you point to examples of you being "personally attacked?"

Please! We want to know what we're doing wrong, so just give us examples and we'll either explain why it wasn't a personal attack, or agree it's a personal attack and say they're in the wrong.

You've been doing this the entire thread, making "nebulous" accusations or promises and expecting that to feed people's problems.

>> No.41395189

>>41395143

I have the regular subscription or whatever, the step below Mentor, and I don't even give a shit about any of this.

This thread has been hilarious though.

>> No.41395211

Shit is changing. Everyone needs to take a pill before we progress forward without burning houses or nothing gets done anyways.

>> No.41395229

>>41394645
I'd also like to reiterate what >>41394659 said in... less vitriolic terms, and what I said with >>41391238

You want to minimize the number of clicks that your users have to go through to get where they want. For instance, split Community into Forums and Help Wiki, move Tools to a sidebar, move LFG to a main bar, keep Games as a link to an old-style Games menu, have Marketplace go straight to the marketplace, and move all of the sub-fields to a sidebar. For example, your top bar would be:
>Home | My Games | Looking for Group | Marketplace | Forums | Help Wiki | Subscribe | Messages | User Account

While you'd have a sidebar that's something like:

>My Games
>>Start a new game
>>Player Directory
>>LFG
>Marketplace
>>Tokens
>>Maps
>>Tiles
>>Modules
>Tools
>>Character Vault
>>Compendium
>>iPad and Android
>Blog

The top bar should be for broad, general stuff and key features, while the sidebar (which move up and down as the user scrolls through the page) provides more specific stuff. This way, you have ways for users to quickly navigate from point A to Point B from a single page without having to click through dropdown menus like in the current iteration.

Also, yeah. I hate to say this, but you need to talk to whoever suggested the dropdown menu, since as several people, myself included, have pointed out, when making changes to and streamlining the site, the goal for integrating sections of a site should be to make it easier to navigate from one section to another fewer clicks, not setting up dropdown menus so rather than reducing the number of clicks necessary, you're moving all of those clicks to one page.

And I would recommend shrinking things down to about 60-70% of their current size, since everything does feel rather oversized on many desktop and larger laptop monitors. Please tell me you're not designing this on a netbook.

>> No.41395237

>>41395166
>You just had to go shoot yourself in the foot right at the end, didn't you?

Shooting yourself in the foot implies he's going to be harmed by this.

Him coming into this thread was NEVER about actually listening to criticism, but to give non-answers and feel insulted by people who "Clearly don't know why we did this." He never had to listen to us, and in fact that post proves it.

The only way Nolan will possibly listen to us is if he starts to lose money, that's literally the only thing.

>>41395211

Progress for progress's sake is a terrible model and should never be done, especially when the people doing the "progress" don't listen to people who might be affected by it.

>> No.41395238

It seems to me that the actual r20 app itself, where I run my games, hasn't changed. Which is good.

The homepage itself, if you're not signed in, is atrocious however. Everything's huge, I'm sure some anon or other has concisely and accurately deconstructed this somewhere in the thread, they're probably on to something and ought to be listened to.

Once I'm signed in, everything is much more bearable but I still find myself zooming out to 70% or so. Have you considered some background image or other? A Harsh white column either side of my colourful campaign pictures and your twitter feed really jars the eyes. Nothing too busy, just something in the background so it doesn't feel like I'm in a clinic when I'm joining a campaign. Hell, even /tg/ has a basic function that lets you choose from a number of colours for your site background. Just something, god my eyes hurt.

>> No.41395293

>>41395229
Everything you said, I said months ago.

It doesn't matter. It never mattered.

>> No.41395296

>>41395238
>Once I'm signed in, everything is much more bearable but I still find myself zooming out to 70% or so. Have you considered some background image or other? A Harsh white column either side of my colourful campaign pictures and your twitter feed really jars the eyes. Nothing too busy, just something in the background so it doesn't feel like I'm in a clinic when I'm joining a campaign. Hell, even /tg/ has a basic function that lets you choose from a number of colours for your site background. Just something, god my eyes hurt.

Didn't the old site have some campaign pages with gently falling snowflakes or other such animated backgrounds?

That helped you get in the mood to game far more than "Initech, the Company that Cares" style white backgrounds.

I guess that's what a big problem with the new site is, one of the top 3 problems; the site lost it's soul, it's not only clunky but it feels CORPORATE, and when you're playing make believe with a bunch of other nerds, the last thing you want to see while typing out an application background to join a Reign of Winter campaign is something better fit for an Amazon workstation.

>> No.41395308

>>41395237
I'm not agreeing with progress for progress's sake. This was clearly a mistake, and so far the only explanations we've seen for why it was done have been flurries of buzzwords, but they're clearly taking SOME of the criticism into account, just slowly. Flipping the fuck out at Nolan because they can't get it all done right away, or yelling because you feel listened to doesn't actually make progress- they need to know what needs fixing right now (all of it.)

>> No.41395316

Wow, I go to sleep and come back to find that the teolla have taken over.

Since when do people expect others to actually follow their advice as if they were orders? Advice isn't something that any one has to take up; it's advice. So all this talk about how the dev team ignited advice is really, incredibly narcissistic.

Secondly, while there are still problems with the site, at least changes have been made. As >>41384496 points out, what the devs wanted was more feedback from a huge test group, the entire community. Are the changes perfect? No, they're bandaids. But it's not total denial of the fact that they ducked up either.

Third, the people acting as if complaints are entitled autists are trolls, and nobody should take them seriously. They just want to get a rise out if you.

>> No.41395345

>>41395159
I absolutely agree. Mapping really needs the ability for GMs to add their own layers, so they can move things about and have things like tree cover that's semi-opaque for N/PCs to hide in. Really, multiple layers in a must.

And some sort of smoother for Dynamic Lighting. I love the tool itself, but the edges on it are very harsh, some smoothing would go a long way in helping the Players feel like they're not in some sort of spiders web.

>> No.41395361

>>41395308
>Flipping the fuck out at Nolan because they can't get it all done right away
Dude. Like I said a hundred times; This redesign was in beta on the Dev servers for almost two months, and they solicited feedback from Mentors during that time. Feedback which in almost all cases, is being repeated by people now that the design is live. Meaning they never took any of it into account at all.

It's not about him doing everything right now. It's about him not being a faggot who brushes everything aside because he's already convinced it's great.

> they need to know what needs fixing right now (all of it.)
People did that on the forums. They locked the threads.

>> No.41395397

>>41395316
>Third, the people acting as if complaints are entitled autists are trolls, and nobody should take them seriously.

Nolan did. No, seriously, he replied to at least two.

>> No.41395401

>>41395345
If you google layer suggestions from before, they've responded to it saying it's technically impossible because it causes lag. It seems they use a new canvas for each layer. Same deal for animated gifs.

>> No.41395472

Hey guys, look at what's back on the front page.

>> No.41395522

Over a million players, guys.

Also, front page is slowly looking less shit with every little iteration. That's got to be worth something.

>> No.41395673

>>41395472
Welp, /tg/ gets shit done, even if that shit is several hours of yelling at a boneheaded moron who hides behind a shitload of corporate jargon worthy of the slimiest politician until one or two obvious suggestions finally get through to him.

>> No.41395718

>>41395472

All that needs to be fixed now is the god-awful background design.

>> No.41395794

>That avalanche of buzzwords and 'muh feelings' over a webpage criticism

Christ, I am really glad I decided not to sub.

>> No.41395863

I just clicked on a random player's profile page.

And now I really feel that it is absolutely necessary that I find the person who did this web design and shoot them in the fucking face.

Holy shit, this is literally the worst web design I've ever see. Ever. And I've been re-doing shitty websites since back in the fucking 90s.

>> No.41395994

>>41395673
>We did it, reddit :^)

>> No.41396122

>>41395994
>being this much of a newfag
/tg/ has always gotten shit done, has nothing to do with reddit.

>> No.41396164

>>41396122
I think they're mocking the self-congratulatory nature of the post when most of the suggestions were just repeats of ones elsewhere.

>> No.41396199

>>41395863
AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>> No.41396231

>>41395863
Yeah, for some reason this shit has unbounded size.

>> No.41396260

>>41396231
That's annoying, but why would one go about uploading a huge-ass image without just modifying it beforehand yourself? I always crop to like 200x200px at least, and my profile still looks fine.

>> No.41396282

>>41396260
Fun Fact: People don't think about things before they do them.

Just because it's common practice for YOU to care doesn't mean anyone else ever will.

>> No.41396331

>>41385967
Yep. It's shit though, so a lot of people stay on /tg/.

>> No.41397388

>>41393721
>All I've gained out of this is the fact that Mentors feel like entitled pieces of shit.
Because they have paid money to the site and are given early access to updates and exclusive access to special forums to talk about it. They feel entitled because roll20 made them entitled. There is NOTHING wrong with that. What's wrong is roll20 doesn't give a shit about their mentors.

>> No.41397517

>>41394150
>You should be able to kick players. Hover over them on the main Game page.
Not kick. Ban. As in remove the ability for a particular user to join your particular game. We want this WITHOUT needing a new game room link.

>> No.41397679

>>41397388
>As a special "thank you" for paying a monthly fee to support us, we're going to give you a special title, a special forum where we post things early and encourage you to give feedback and suggestions, and we're also going to design the site such that you have more weight when voting on ideas, your campaigns show up in LFG first, and you have access to things no one else has!
>What, you expect us to care what you have to say? What are you, entitled?

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