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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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[ERROR] No.41225119 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

So Legate Lanius, the Monster of the East, has unexpectedly died (choked on an iguana on a steak, don't you know), and the great Caesar has named you his latest Legate. How to you defeat the NCR and conquer the Mojave while staying true to the ways of the Legion?

(The Courier has not yet awoken from his coma and started exploring the Mojave.)

>> No.41225158

Invade the Dam. We all know that without the courier the legion was going to take New Vegas

>> No.41225164

I stab Caesar to death, powerfist everything else in the camp to paste, sell everything I could carry out to the Gun Runners and Crimson Caravan, down a few beers, and head out into the wasteland with Rex and Lily in search of the land of gumdrops and sodapop.

>> No.41225180

Even assuming you are right, taking New Vegas is one thing, but holding it is an entirely different matter. You need the East to hold the West. This is why Lanius backs off if you point this out to him.

Also, Mr. House and his securitrons would curb-stomp the Legion.

[spoilers]Legion a shit

>> No.41225184

More drums, and bigger banners on the riverside.
Kidnap a few soldiers, make it public you kidnapped them, and torture them to death in the vicinity of the dam. Use the dam as an echo megaphone.
Even more drums.

>> No.41225185

The NCR is spread thin across the Mojave so send frumentarii out to identify their weakpoints and then personally stomp their shit in while backed with Legion raid teams. When they can't control the caravan routes anymore, you've won.

>> No.41225199

>defeat the NCR and conquer the Mojave
>staying true to the ways of the Legion

you may pick one and only one.

Legion was pants on head retarded.

NCR had superior numbers and way more inclination to use these magical things called "guns" and at least some sort of body armour where as the Legion just liked to run around in sports equipment and hit things with pointy sticks and big knives.

House had murder-bots with machine guns and rocket launchers. Even before waking up the spares and upgrading them he could have mounted a fair defense of the City.

Legion invasion and the threat of loosing the dam and the city would have been enough to unite both House and NCR with or without the Courier and despite the back stabbery between the Big Families of the Strip.

>> No.41225253

>savages armed with scraps of aluminum
>defeating an army equipped with firearms and artillery

The Legion's only hope is to get the platinum chip and use the Securitrons. Of course that means getting rid of Caesar, but the old man wasn't long for this world either way

>> No.41225280

Legion had superior numbers. The only reason they didn't use guns was because they didn't have any. California was armed to the teeth before the war because the Chinese might've tried a land invasion.

>> No.41225292

This man has his priorities straight. But seriously, fuck Legion. They're a bunch of shit edgelords anyways so nothing of value would be lost.

>> No.41225303

What if Caeser has more men than the NCR has bullets?

>> No.41225326

That's still a disgusting amount of losses on the Legion's part making holding the Mohave a fool's dream. NCR isn't the only other faction who will be out to wreck their shit after all.

>> No.41225375

What if the NCR gives fully functional T51b suits to all of its soldiers.

What if House replaced all of his robots with Liberty Primes.

What if the Brotherhood had 50,000 knights heading from the East to reinforce them.

>> No.41225409

Vipers, who nobody can actually beat.

Not to mention Ulysses, the Think Tank, and both east and west of the Brotherhood.

How many Legion Recruits does it take to kill Deathclaws, you think?

>> No.41225457

Also Cazadores.

>> No.41225469

I am not sure of that. There are many faction that could have make temporary alliance together to get rid of them. I think it would have be safer to expand more in the fourth state commonwealth and build civilization there.

>> No.41225499

>How many Legion Recruits does it take to kill Deathclaws, you think?

I suppose it might choke on plastic sports products at some point.

>> No.41225520

Send frumentarii to the NCRCF. They hate the NCR more than we do and can probably be convinced to attack. Offer them some guns and explosives (the Legion has them, even if they prefer using hand-to-hand weapons). Have them drive the deathclaws north out of Sloan toward the Sharecropper lands. Those that succeed can join the Legion as legionaries, not slaves. Those that fail will die.

At the same time pay the Great Khans to produce massive amounts of Chems and get the Fiends fucked up and pointed in the direction of Camp McCarran. The combined pressure of the Fiends and deathclaws should keep the NCR's attention while we focus on the Boomers.

They are to be treated as equals and allowed to remain autonomous if they aid us in the Second Battle for Hoover Dam. If they don't want to join us, we simply make sure they don't join the NCR.

The Brotherhood of Steel is a tricky one. I'd suggest wiping out the Van Graffs and sending the weapons and ammunition to the BoS as a sort of peace offering- they want tech, we don't. We both want the NCR gone. Once that enemy is taken care of we'll figure out how to finish off the Brotherhood.

As for Camp Forlorn Hope and the Mojave Outpost, Vulpes Inculta had the right idea. Gather more nuclear waste and flood the areas. That way when we're ready to march on Hoover Dam we can hit them from both sides of the river, catching them in a trap.

Also send someone to assassinate Chief Hanlon. He's been a thorn in our side for too long.

At the same time

>> No.41225529

Sheeit, late-stage legionnares are some hard-core motherfuckers. I think I'd just call it quits, and head back to Phoenix to consolidate my military strength. I'd kill Caesar (it will solidify morale by killing him rather than have him die of a brain tumor) and head back East. Stay there, build my army, conquer some more tribes, then try to meet the NCR as trading partners. After a certain point, I don't think it would be unthinkable to hold everything from Utah to New Mexico.

>> No.41225546

Reminds me of the Star Wars comic where Grievous says the main use of Battle Droid marines is to block passages with their piles of bodies.

>> No.41226130

Step 1: Do not fuck with Boomers
Step 2: Dirty bomb the fuck out minor NCR positions
Step 3: Flush NCRCF and camps with non-lethal night raids, send then into Vegas farmlands
Step 4: Ambush more trade routes and starve out towns
Step 5: Hand off ambush spots to hungry Vipers and Jackals with no strings
Step 6: Offer trade with the Khans
Step 7: Offer trade with Fiends
Step 8: False flag ambush chem shipments as NCR
Step 9: Push a Fiend-NCR confrontation
Step 10: Coach the Khans and Gangers into raids
Step 11: Encircle the Vegas area
Step 12: False flag some attacks on the Khans as NCR Rangers
Step 13: Force an NRC-Khan confrontation
Step 14: Flood the Fiends with stockpiled chems
Step 15: Open up offensive lines for Gangers
Step 16: Assault NCR positions
Step 17: Allow the Fiend, Khan and Ganger confrontations to ease down
Step 18: Cement new holdings and convert all minor settlements within the region
Step 19: Kill the weakened Caesar
Step 20: Use superior numbers to push Viper and Jackal into the now clusterfucked Khan-Fiend-Ganger-NCR territory
Step 21: Take the new starved NCR positions and push them back the Point and Helios
Step 22: Wait for the NCR to push everything they have on a counterattack to avoid splitting their forces
Step 23: Use chaos to slip infiltrators into key positions thought to be defended by the counterattack
Step 24: Fighting retreat back to original fortified positions
Step 25: Activate infiltrators and sabotage
Step 26: Launch assaults on infiltrated positions to destroy arms, food, defences ect.
Step 27: Allow attrition to force NCR back to unfortified, now worthless positions
Step 28: Sweep through and crush the already injured, tired, demoralised forces with no defences or supplies
Step 29: Allow any retreat that isn't to the Dam to be crushed by the clusterfuck
Step 30: Work a Khans alliance
Step 31: Force an attack of the Dam
Step 32: Leave the NCR with a blockaded base at Vegas and the Point
Step 33: Wait for retreat

>> No.41227049

>Poorly trained conscripts armed with weapons they barely even understand, led by incompetent generals who were more concerned with politics than achieving results on the battlefield
>defeating an army of ruthless, bloodied, fearless soldiers, who don't rely upon unreliable pre-war tech, that outnumbers them at least five to one

Legion and NCR were evenly matched. The NCR made much more use of pre-war tech, but the quality of the average soldier was also much, much lower, and their leaders were as likely to be corrupt and incompetent politicians who cared only for their own career advancement as they were a competent battlefield commander. The Legion was much more poorly armed, but they also were ruthless and almost fearless individuals, who thought nothing of charging head first into the enemy guns with only a machete and their rage. Every Legionnaire was a veteran of their tribal warfare in the past, and their veterans had killed dozens of other people in straight-up fights of pure strength. Each Legionnaire was a hardened killer used to relying on his own strength to win a battle. Furthermore, each Legionnaire was a true believer in their leader, and served him as if he were a God.

The Veterans of both nations were pretty evenly matched, because they were wise enough and well-armed enough to make use of any and all weapons at their disposal, though Rangers still preferred long-distance warfare while Centurions/Praetorians preferred hand to hand combat.

If a Legion war party managed to close the gap against an NCR patrol, the patrol would be massacred.

If an NCR patrol gets the drop on a Legion war part, the Legionnaires would mostly be killed before they even knew what hit them.

It all depends on the competence of the commanding officer of an expedition.

>> No.41227717

Probably reunite the Mormon clans and act as trusted neutral traders to both sides. Use funds to rebuild Utah piece by piece and make it a death trap to anyone trying to get in. Focus on training a reliable intel network in every faction and use it to my advantage. They can have the dam, I'll take the paradise that is a GECK altered Utah and the best stopping point throughout the Rockies. I'd also find Ghouls that are not feral and use their knowledge to find old tech and re establish connections with Canada and Mexico. My time will come.

>> No.41227775

Then the NCR switches to energy weapons.

>> No.41227818

> Furthermore, each Legionnaire was a true believer in their leader, and served him as if he were a God.

Their leader has brain cancer.

The NCR just needs to wait a bit and the Legion falls apart.

>> No.41227875

I feel that later into the schedule some parties would be better straight up exterminated than kept around as puppets - tying loose ends and all...
But overall well thought-out plan, I like it.

>> No.41230249

doesn't factor in Mr.House, or the BoS, or the Families/kings

Anyways, taking vegas isn't the issue. Holding it is.

Congrats, you now have a bunch of pissed-off people that you just fought. This is the speech/barter checks that you have in the end against lanius, pointing this out to him. The legion will become too strung-out and poorly supplied, and then something like the Institute or the Midwestern/eastern BoS shows up in a decade and fucks you all over.

Not a bad plan to TAKE the dam, but it doesn't work for vegas, nor does it allow you to hold it.

>> No.41230357

Do you know what the phrase "Pyrrhic victory" means?

>> No.41230826

I'd question the worth of even holding Vegas. What was it worth to the legion besides symbolism? If I remember right, they don't allow gambling, the fields around Vegas are irradiated, and having the population as resources only works if either they like you or you can crush any organized resistance (BoS, Boomers, House, Kings etc.)

>> No.41231949


Right now the legion is an army on the march. Caesar wants to build a Rome so that he can finally settle down and be a ruler, not just a general. Granted he could settle for the cities he already has, but defeating the NCR and taking Vegas would cement the fact that the Legion is not to be fucked with. That and having a capital worthy of the Legion would prevent it from dissolving when Caesar dies.

>> No.41232243

>Right now the legion is an army on the march. Caesar wants to build a Rome so that he can finally settle down and be a ruler, not just a general.

Wait, wait, wait. Caesar didn't leave all the tribes he conquered as vassals, taking their tribute in soldiers with him to Hoover Dam? He doesn't have a proper empire with a an administration and bureaucracy back east? He got around this by telling EVERYONE, "pack up your bags and march west"?

He took literally EVERYTHING to the Mojave?

Jesus christ, now I know what the NCR meant about "superior numbers". And I guess he's planning to hold the Mojave through sheer amounts of brute force.

This isn't a Nova Roma, these are Gauls in costumes...

>> No.41232391

that guy is talking out his ass. There's an empire and bureacracy out east, it's just a shaky fan fiction theory he came up with to justify the various weak points in the Legion's game story not to mention their philosophy.

no medical, slaves, a haughty disdain for foriegners, all the new romans following ceasar and not his ways... after ceasar dies the legion is fucked. Best case scenario is legate lanius gets killed at the battle of hoover damn and the legion is forced to retreat back into the arizona wastes and attend to their old/new empire.

>> No.41232537

When did you stop beeing everyones questbitch and turn NV into "the big quest for the most epic loot" by betraying and killing anything and everyone.

>> No.41232713

It's sad that there's so few well-written lawful evil villains these days. An actual new Rome which was safer and less corrupt than the NCR but much more brutal and militant in the name of survival would've been a lot more interesting than Edward's tribe of cosplayers.

>> No.41235724

>Not playing a wargod
>Not just murdering everyone once you have what you need
>Not being hated by every faction
Just kill people and leave a trail of blood on your wake.

>> No.41235878

I go back to Phoenix. The Mojave literally isn't worth it, and holding Hoover Dam is too hard. I give Caesar the old Brutus' handshake and take the legion as my own, then tell them that we're headed home. I build up Phoenix as the Nova Roma Caesar envisioned, cool back on the whole "dude let's treat women like slaves lmao" part of the legion, use especially trained soldiers from the wars of conquest as the back bone for my new Legions, invite all the tribes we conquered back in the day to come to Phoenix, settle them there. Rise from the ashes, like the Phoenix
Basically cool the Legionnaire part of Rome and pick up the "holy shit that's advanced" part

>> No.41237361

I follow the previous Legate's example and do nothing in particular until it's time for the big fight. Be sure to let that psychopath with a dog on his head keep massacring towns for no reason though, that really helps our image as the real good guys and hope for the future. See if there aren't some gangs and tribes we can betray and backstab when they try to join us, those Powder Gangers will look great nailed to crosses right? I'll have someone look into that.

>> No.41237428

Official factions power rankings lads:
House > NCR > Legion > Independent

House is a pre war genius, able to prevent 50+ warheads from hitting Vegas. Intelligent, have a sense for business, have a sense for technology, the only one capable of restoring humanity and leading it to greatness.

NCR is good... if you are one of the rich and greedy who use democracy as a tool to control population who have no real power, check all those free ranch farmers and land owners bullied into submission.

Legion is fucking insane, they are based on bullshit (>son of mars, >22xx) and are anti intellectual. A recipe for catastrophe where men live like a cattle.

Independent does not have required organization to achieve anything, "anarchy rules the street" and its just a matter of time before entire Vegas become another raider/junkie cesspool. And I like raider/junkie cesspools.

Fight me nerds, I know my opinion is better then yours.

>> No.41237552

>What if the NCR gives fully functional T51b suits to all of its soldiers.

The NCR actually has faction armor in the game that's essentially T51-b with the servo-motors stripped because, and get this, it requires special training that they lacked to wear power armor.

>> No.41237808


I like this plan coupled with the Van Graffs bit from >>41225520. But of course we'll have to wipe out the BoS once Hoover Dam is ours.

Shame that in game the Legion gets fucked by the Van Graffs.

>> No.41237815

So they fuck up perfectly good power armour to make a suit of basic metal armour.

Stupidity only matched by the Legion.

>> No.41237830

I meant this as a response to this

>> No.41237874

> tfw I sincerely consider Fallout: New Vegas to be the best WRPG I have ever played

That said I don't understand the people saying the Legion are all spearchuckers. Even middle-rank legionaries are almost all using guns and that's not even talking about veterans and officers

The truth is that the Legion uses guns, the recruits just have to prove themselves worthy first

>> No.41237926

The Legion was legitimately one of the crappiest things in any fallout lore.

Shame on you.

>> No.41238032

Their ideology is a spearchucker one.

Yes, they used a radiation bomb and yes, they are stockpiling energy weapons, but if you talk with Caesar at later point in the game, when you get more dialogue out of him, he tells you how the point of life is to serve the Legion and not use technology and stuff, that is what he says just way more philosophical then it is in this post.

House wants humanity in space. NCR also wants humanity in space, some 500 years later then House. Brotherhood isnt a faction but they are more like a House then like NCR. And independent.. I dont know, I just dont see it.

>> No.41238041

Figure out how to domesticate Deathclaws and Cazadores

>> No.41238081

Whats stopping the legion from building some rafts and attacking the dam from behind?

>> No.41238089

Their ideology is primitive because they are focused on the present: pacifying their territory, expanding their borders, fostering the aggressivity and strength of their soldiers

It's all right for House to want humanity in space but in the meantime the Mojave is a shithole that is barely held together by the NCR. People are generally poor, unsafe and unhappy. Remove the NCR and House is done for, at least until the Courier come and fix his shit personally

But I maintain the fact that the Legion use guns

That's actually what they do during the battle, that's why there are so much of them in the underground parts of the dma

>> No.41238135

bruh Caesar is a luddite, just ask him why he insists on destroying the robots in his backyard instead of using them, and he will tell you himself

he hates technology with passion, which is why I got rid of him (with energy weapons)

>> No.41238192

Caesar thinks that using technology make someone weaker, which in some contexts is right: even unarmed Legionary Recruits can probably slaughter unarmed NCR troopers

Caesar is also a big hypocrite having an autodoc in his tent though

>> No.41238248

So you plan to arm the brotherhood even more so than they already are, and then kill them? Shit plan/10

>> No.41238269

This. I liked the guy. I really did. Liked the whole being a follower kid, reading books all childhood and getting smarter all life. But then he takes a turn and goes full irrational luddite spear chucking idiot.

And about legion recruits being stronger then other recruits unarmed: so what? Yeah sure, they would win unarmed. But you know what? They would also win if everyone else was tied up and beaten up.

Wars and conflicts arent sports or 'what if' games. There is no 'what if one guy is unarmed' thing. There are chances and probabilities, but chances are the other guy is going to be in power armor, not unarmed. Chances are he is going to have that laser machine guns, those war helicopters and those boomer missiles.

>> No.41238277

Call me edgy if you want but Caesar's Legion was the best faction if you don't count Doctor House.

>> No.41238329

Well let's see it this way: it took about 220 years for the NCR to be created and then go to the state presented in FNV. It started from a single shitty village, using several GECKs and the help of the Brotherhood of Steel to flourish into this Republic of 4 states.

For the Legion it took them only 34 years to be created and to conquer a bigger territory. The Legion is an entity created for a single goal, unite the wastelands and topple the NCR.

>And about legion recruits being stronger then other recruits unarmed: so what?
Well considering NCR troopers are mostly shaking in their boots at the idea of fighting the Legion, I guess it does matter.

The only true advantage of the NCR is their Ranger corps, because power armors, laser machine guns, fancy helicopters and bombers, the NCR doesn't have those - or is unwilling to send them to the frontlines

>> No.41238347

it would've been a much larger game with a legion controlled territory but it got cut. obsidian suffers from planning too big.

>> No.41238401

>But I maintain the fact that the Legion use guns
That is a fact. High level legionaries carry brush guns and anti-materiel rifles. You can have a gun once you've proven you don't need it.

>> No.41238437

But still, luddite Legion cant win.

Check British colonization of Africa, Americas, and even China.
Also check first fights of the world war 1 (the one where French thought war is still Napoleonic thingie, with flashy uniforms, marching with music bands in the back (they are luddites in this example) and German generals figuring it out and machine gunning them by the thousands).

Superior technology always win, that's how reality works. Even in Fallout universe when the brotherhood lost that solar powerplant, they inflicted 100 times more casualties, and then had to retreat from there, they werent completely defeated, it was just a.. negative stalemate.

>> No.41238463

Well I'm not saying the Legion will win the war, I'm just saying that Caesar tried his best with what few resources he had, and boy, did he really achieved something here

>> No.41238520

Why didn't the Legion and the Brotherhood get along better? Legion doesn't want fancy tech but does want land and people to rule, Brotherhood are isolationist pricks who just want to hoard all the tech for themselves. They seem like a good fit for each other. Much less of a threat to each other than the NCR is anyway.

Anyway: the only way for the Legion to win is to go full Ho Chi Minh. Make holding New Vegas a real chore that turns politically toxic, then offer the NCR a dignified exit before overwhelming everything.

Just make sure not to kill either Hanlon or Kimball. Just keep blowing up monorails, instigating Fiend raids, and pull back any time they try to counter attack.

>> No.41238560


kek are you serious? A good fit?

Legion is a good fit only for itself. Brotherhood too is a good fit only for itself. What they both share in common is that they dont like anyone else, but that's pretty much it.

Not even to mention that iron men and spear chuckers are pretty much the biggest philosophical/political opposites, like you couldnt make them more opposite even if you tried.

>> No.41238583

Vietnamese disagree with you. So do various commies all over the world.

War is a political act. Make fighting the war politically unpalatable. Don't assassinate prominent leaders, do make sure lots of young recruits die in stupid ways for no significant return. Don't give them hard targets, do drag the war out indefinitely so voters get bored. Flood Vegas with even more cheap drugs and disease ridden whores to make sure every 20 year old soldier comes back with a habit and a rash.

You don't have to beat the NCR's army, you only have to beat the voter's will to continue.

Hanlon already thought they should just go home, others will start agreeing with him if you give them a good reason to.

>> No.41238596

They don't have to agree philosophically, only practically.

Legion thinks people shouldn't use hi-tech stuff. Brotherhood agrees.

Brotherhood likes to isolate themselves in their impregnable bunkers. Legion presumably wants an agrarian society.

History has produced stranger allies.

>> No.41238613

Or you can see it a different way - you've got the NCR, a nation that has managed to survive hundreds of years, that has slowly and steadily expanded (without actually being intent on expanding and dominating the continent in the same way Legion does) and nothing is really an existential threat to it, that is slowly putting back together the pre-War industrial and scientific base.

Then you've got the Legion, which is wholly untested. Which has been around for only one guy's life time, a guy who is dying and it seems has put zero provisions in place for succession in the event of his death. The Legion is created for the single goal of following Caesar. Where's it gonna be when Caesar dies? Nowhere.

>> No.41238651

>Where's it gonna be when Caesar dies? Nowhere.
Yes. But in the meantime, if Caesar lives long enough and the Courier doesn't help the NCR, the Legion can still defeat the NCR at Hoover Dam and take Vegas, which if i I remember well is actually Caesar's end goal

Tandi built a civilization, Caesar built a weapon. The Legion is more efficient at conquering than the NCR but the NCR will still most probably outlast the Legion

>> No.41238674

Well all I am saying is, if I lived in a Fallout universe, I would really, really like to live like a brotherhood member. Having an auto doc, having the shiniest guns, having a perfect shelter and so on. Or being a viper/fiend.

In any event, I would very much fear for my way of life, or just fear for my life in general, as long as the legion is present. So naturally I (and many other likeminded people) would want to eventually somehow get rid of the legion.

So I dont know, I just dont see it. If I was down there, in the fallout world, I couldnt see myself not trying to destroy the legion. I would actively try to somehow get rid of it (or ended up living alone on a mountain, far away from everything).

>> No.41238689


There aren't many of them, and destroying them is a back up plan if they won't leave us in peace. And if I must destroy them, it won't be in open combat. Perhaps their bunkers have some sort of generator that can be disrupted...

>> No.41238721

You could've allied the Legion with the BoS, but that quest chain got cut. Based Bethesda.

>> No.41238732

Brotherhood generators are deep down in the Earth, and you need pretty advanced tech to dig there.

You see, the reasons why Legion is retarded just keep popping up.

>> No.41238755

The NCR already has trouble holding what they have. They are bloated, and support for the war is waning. On the contrary, the Legion needs war to stay on its feet. This presents us with a sticky situation.

The raids are a good strategy, so we keep them up. In fact, more raiding. Not only will we harrass the NCR and exhaust their civilian population, we will also gain rapport with the tribal raiders across the river, who will be more susceptible to our culture, and with whom we can strike seperate bargains. Groups like the Fiends will likely be impossible to control or cooperate with, but others like the Khans and the Boomers could be Romanized and take their place with Legion culture.

We can strangle the Mojave through asymmetric warfare. If we meet the NCR in the field, we give them exactly what they want. Currently, our influence stretches across the river, right down to Nipton, an important stop on the way to New Vegas. The Jackal gang operates in that area. They are destitute and desperate, and make easy targets for either cooperation or destruction. Either way, small outposts need to be established in this area to keep an eye on NCR troop movements, and possibly to disrupt their supply line. Camp Searchlight and Nipton were powerful messages to the NCR. Focusing on this area might consolidate our hold. In the worst case scenario, we divert NCR attention away from Hoover Dam and New Vegas, forcing them to stretch their resources even thinner.

>> No.41238775

Anyone played Fallout Dust?

>> No.41238806

Try to see it from the perspective of a Brotherhood elder. You can't control the Mojave, you're not big enough. What you can do is choose your neighbours.

The NCR wants your stuff, can break into your bunkers given time, and has plenty of resources to throw at doing so.

The Legion doesn't want your stuff, isn't well equipped to take it from you, and has much bigger problems than getting things they don't want from people who can ably resist them.

With the NCR as your neighbour you will be enveloped and either destroyed or gradually robbed of your sovereignty and way of life.

With the Legion as your neighbour they'll probably just mostly ignore you, maybe ask you to fix stuff they're too dumb to fix themselves, and worry themselves shitless about what would happen if the NCR came back in force.

Unless the Legion had literally no external military threats you're more likely to preserve your way of life with the Legion controlling the Mojave. If the Legion could completely destroy the NCR that would be different, but that's not something that's likely to happen.

>> No.41238822

Shame. It always seemed like the logical option to me. Like what the fuck were they planning to do if I couldn't infiltrate their bunker?

>> No.41238981

Caesar is a megalomaniac. His only goal is to gain further power and control. The idea of letting a group within his borders exist outside of his control, especially whilst armed to the fucking teeth, would be unthinkable. Yeah, they might not threaten him *now*, but what if that changes somewhere down the line? Best not to take the chance, and destroy them while he has the chance.

Also, lol if you think the Legion doesn't like using hi-tech stuff. Caesar himself fights with some kind of black-hole-emitting power-fist, and relies on the ministrations of an Auto-Doc. If Caesar wanted power armour, he'd damned well march into Hidden Valley and take it, ideology be damned.

>> No.41239111

Since without the Courier, Legion probably wins, you don't have to do much.
I'd focus more on reinforcing supply lines and making sure Caesar has a heir than think about military tactics.

Maybe send some Frumentarii to fuck up Hanlon or other military chiefs, as well as send some to make deals with big names in Vegas like the Chairmen, the Kings, or White Gloves. If Legion knows about the Powder Gangers, sending an ambassador out to convince them to run raids on NCR settlements could work.

Reinforcing Nelson and Cottonwood Cove would be good. More raids from them keeps the pressure on the already stressed NCR troops. Attacking the NCR's caravans or even their farms would do wonders to destabilize them.

>> No.41239138

I thought it was only with House?
There are cut lines and everything, but apparently it was cut because House would definitely want them all dead.
I haven't heard anything about Legion offering an alliance with them before

>> No.41239291

Nope Brotherhood pretty much can't do anything with the Legion.

>> No.41239422

Caesar doesn't want to destroy the NCR, he wants to assimilate it
It's a ready-made civilisation, with corrupt as shit leadership. His plan is to slaughter the top and replace it with his own, his Pax Romana (I think he calls it that).
The Legion's strength is also its weakness: it's a weapon, but it can't support itself. The only way it can is by raiding others.
The same for NCR, its strength is its weakness. It's a glorified network of traders, preferring to keep its troops back to protect its economic interests even when faced with an existential threat.
It makes sense that the biggest raiders around would go after the biggest civilians around

>> No.41239574

Simple really.

Send the entire Legion, the entirety of the forces at my disposal at the Dam and as they're getting slaughtered flee and fulfill my purpose of being a mortition. Also court Cass.

>> No.41239832

Benny has no way to get the Platinum Chip to Fortification hill. No Platinum Chip = Only Securitrons Mk I (The Mall Cops).

The only reason Wild Card and House plots can happen is that Caesar, while a materialist dialectic, has a weird fetish about Great Man history. The Courier represents a possible Great Man.

>> No.41240435

Then those bullets punching through those tightly-packed mobs of retards in sports gear will go a long way to evening that up.

>> No.41241281

>Legion just liked to run around in sports equipment
That's likely to high quality, lightweight plastic armor that's resistant to trauma made for rugby players. That shit might not stop a bullet but it's likely beyond what anyone can still make after the apocalypse and sure is better what non-elite NCR soldiers wear.

>> No.41241367

Actually, the legion relies heavily on stealth and subterfuge. It's why Vulpes is such a big deal, he's very much a Tactical Genius when it comes to guerrilla warfare.

>> No.41241648

I think you are badly mis-assesing the situation. Its really not that far form Vegas to the NRC heartland. The legion isn't some vague, ideological opponent 2000 miles away, the NCR cant just pack up and head home if they dont like the results of the war. The Legion is very tangible, existential threat ot the NCR that is on it's doorstep.To be fair, perhaps I have played too much Fallout Doomsday, and and thus over assessing the NCR, because they almost always win agisnt the legion ever since the moved the Legion out west (good change too)

>> No.41241664

>What if House replaced all of his robots with Liberty Primes.
>America the Beautiful playing in the background

>> No.41241759

Off-topic, but what are the aliens trying to achieve? Just what the hell is going on up there? Kidnapping humanity, Collector-style? Random experiments? Being space dicks? Trying to abduct all our women to repopulate their planet, but still having difficulty telling the difference between the sexes? Somebody fart?

>> No.41241805

>Trying to abduct all our women to repopulate their planet

Where's Duke when you need him?

Probably drinking himself to death to dull the pain of his last shitty game, no doubt.

>> No.41241830


Mothership zeta had them turning people into super soldiers - the Abominations.


Return of Dr. Proton was great, and it almost redeemed the shitfest that was Forever.

>> No.41241850

They wanted to breed supersoldiers. Humans are naturally better fighters and warriors and they tried to make cross their DNA with ours. That is what made the abominations, which took over a 1/4 of the mothership as and infestation.

>> No.41241876


Abominations, son. Invincible super-soldiers.

>> No.41241906

That get wasted by the Lone Wanderer.

>> No.41241918

If they wanted an invincible super-soldier all they'd have to do is strap a pip-boy on their wrist and shove a camera into their eye socket, and have a kindly paternal man ask them to fill out their SPECIAL stats.

>> No.41241920

But independent doesn't mean anarchy, it means you run Vegas via yes man. You still control all of the securitrons and casinos.

>> No.41241969

And attach stimpaks to the number 1. And possibly give access to `.

>> No.41241974

>House is a pre war genius, able to prevent 50+ warheads from hitting Vegas. Intelligent, have a sense for business, have a sense for technology, the only one capable of restoring humanity and leading it to greatness.

>Fight me nerds, I know my opinion is better then yours.

Mr. House detected

>> No.41242002

Which rather begs the question of who they're fighting.

>> No.41242096

Space bugs, civil war, Chaos? Maybe all 3?

>> No.41242138


Do everything in my power to dissuade Caesar from going anywhere near the dam or Vegas. Even if we take the dam we will be so depleted that House will wreck whats left of us even with the shitty Mk1's and it's probably a safe bet that he can hire mercenaries to fill in the gaps. If we go around the dam and take the city without slamming into the NCR we will either have to leave it quickly, endure a siege with no relief in sight or try and fight them in the open with depleted numbers. Either way the game is rigged for Legion to suffer unprecedented attrition. If there is enough of us left we will have a hard time holding on to Arizona from even a mildly determined tribal group.

If Caesar can't be reasoned with, a big probability, then i put scorpions in his bed/strychnine in his tea/viper on his chair or some other way of killing him to make it look like an accident or an acceleration of his brain cancer.

Take the Legion back to Arizona and plan to build Phoenix into the new Rome. Set about repairing that big fucking Central Arizona Project canal for one thing. Send spies back into NCR and other places to tell those share cropper, hired farm hands and indentured servants that they can have some land of their own, watered and green by the canal, if they swear loyalty to Caesar. Legion can't farm for shit so they will have to bring in others who can.

Reform the social hierarchy. As it stand there are Masters and Slaves and sweet bugger all else. There should be Citizens, Subjects and Slaves. Citizenship is automatically given to those who do military service, have been awarded it as a reward for something awesome or perform some vital role that no other could do or couldn't do as well. Basically everyone in the Legion as it stands at the time of the battle for Hoover Dam that isn't happening is going to be a Citizen.

>> No.41242230

>If Caesar can't be reasoned with, a big probability, then i put scorpions in his bed/strychnine in his tea/viper on his chair or some other way of killing him to make it look like an accident or an acceleration of his brain cancer.

Why not just publicly stab him? By Caesar's own logic, if you kill him, he was weak and unfit to rule.

>> No.41242254


Aliens are gonna show up in Fallout 4. Maybe you can ask them there.

>> No.41242288

Am I really the only one that finds it preposterous that Caesar named some of his soldiers "Frumentarii"?
That means "The grain".

>> No.41242318


"Frumentarii were officials of the Roman Empire, originally wheat collectors, who also acted as the secret service of the Roman Empire in the 2nd and 3rd centuries."

>> No.41242459

Subjects have less rights but less obligations. The traders and other support people at the time of the withdrawal from the Vegas area all come under this category. They have to pay a tax of their produce (or equivalent value in goods or services) to the Legion for protection. They pay and they get protection, they don't pay and they get exile or bumped down to slave.

Beneath Subject is Slave. Prisoners of War, criminals, debtors and the like. No rights but few to no obligations beyond doing what they are told. Their masters have responsibilities of care and codes of conduct they have to follow but that's about it.

Make an offer to the Brotherhood. Tell them that we are going to be scavenging in old ruins quite a bit until we can get the New Rome thing up and running and we would quite like someone with a good brain to prod some of the shit we find. If we do it we will probably set off nukes, wake up malevolent A.I., release sentient clouds of nerve gas or open a biological weapons container or something. We need their wisdom. In return they get all the high-tech crap the scav-teams find. If they don't accept then we try to make peace with the Followers of the Apocalypse and get them to do it. Offer the Scribe a position as adviser.

Relax the restrictions on drugs. Drugs are now permissible for medical reason and medical reasons only. Anybody found taking prohibited substances for recreational reasons gets a fuck hueg fine. Should they be unable to pay then they are bumped down to slave until the debt is paid in service.

Military service is expected but not demanded of all able men. It is the only reliable way to get full Citizenship.

Invite the Followers of the Apocalypse. They know lots about agriculture, medicine, history, geography and other shit needed to build an Empire to last a Thousand Years.

>> No.41242498

Travel to the east.

Send messagers to Ishmael Ashur. he is the perfect ally. We can mass produce swords, armor and guns.

>> No.41242524

Ashur is dead, Werhner is in charge now.

>> No.41242616

Apparently some of the pre-war tech is stolen from them. Medigel (for robobrains and dogs) possible the FEV too.

In return, the aliens stole the nuke codes and started the great war.

ayy lmao

>> No.41242790

Maintain aversion to technological dependency. Not for previous Caesar's Luddite bullshit but because we can't make it ourselves and we must rely on nobody else. Bring in others and make them part of us, sure, no problem with that. We will steal their wisdom and make it our own. If we need metal we will take it from the ruins of the old world or mine it for ourselves eventually. If in time it becomes inevitable that we need outside metal we will trade for the raw material, ingots and scrap and the like, and then shape it ourselves.

Agriculture is the basis of civilization. True Civilization doesn't happen without people having enough to survive and at least little bit more. If there is a river it needs a dam on it to collect that water and irrigation systems made to get it to the fields. The Followers historians will be so very useful in this regards if we can just copy what some long dead civilizations did when they needed this doing.

With an increase of grain there will be an increase in rats. Thankfully not too big of an immediate increase as the previous Caesar depopulated the surrounding area so thoroughly. Harsh training will continue for the Legion, supplemented by any tribals who want to join. Even for tribals military service in the name of Caesar will grant Citizenship.

Keep the roads easy to travel as people that spread and mingle freely are less likely to band together and form their own little thing and try to overthrow you. Continue to try and break up tribal allegiances by intermarriage but with a bit more subtlety than the previous dude.

Citizens in good standing can take an additional wife or two so long as they can support them and all parties in the marriage agree to this arrangement but for paper work purposes they will go down as concubines.

And the number 1 thing to do is to abide by your own laws. At least look like an example to follow

Yes I may have just turned the faux Romans half way to sort of Saxons. Still an improvement

>> No.41242820

It's simpler this way.

This way we can act "in the memory of Caesar", "for the dream of Caesar" and others such bullshit for a while without question.

>> No.41243429

Bear in mind that this armour still confers ALL of the protection of a normal suit of T51-b, which means it's still one of the best protective suits in the wasteland. You just have to carry the weight yourself, which isn't good for staying in action for extended periods of time but is still perfectly good enough for most combat.

>> No.41243566

NCR presidents serve for a lifetime, and I believe they have complete control over the NCR

>> No.41243600

Why do you think the Legion will follow you, and not some knucklehead with bigger muscles who had *not* been arguing with Caesar prior to his death?

If Caesar dies, the rest of the Legion will crucify you, then throw themselves naked at the ramparts of New Vegas until god forgives them.

>> No.41243658

I'm a PC.

If Fallout has taught me anything its that a determined PC with an axe to grind can get shit done. 100 speech skill + a nice suit

>> No.41244608

>NCR had superior numbers and way more inclination to use these magical things called "guns" and at least some sort of body armour where as the Legion just liked to run around in sports equipment and hit things with pointy sticks and big knives.
Yeah, NCR has superior equipment (both weapon and medical), yet they still were getting their shit kicked in by a army of raiders with sticks and stones.

Legion a shit, but NCR is pretty shit too in its own way

>> No.41244801

Remember that you can forge an alliance between NCR and BoS. The fact that the possibility exists means that BoS is a threat to the Legion

>> No.41245218

T-45d, but still.

If anyone wants to argue how the legion wasn't bumfuck retarded, consider this:
The 9mm pistols and service rifles that are just about ubiquitous in NCR territory? Those were made post-war in NCR factories. They're the only faction we know of (other than the Brotherhood and Gun Runners, who seem to sell to anyone) that seems to be able to make and produce decent-quality weapons and ammunition in the wasteland. They can even make small amounts of high-quality combat armor, post-war.

Their issues are training and leadership. Their soldiers are unmotivated and poorly trained, their leaders are incompetent.

The best the Legion can do is give their rank-and file some football pads, a spear, and a scrap-metal machete.

By all accounts, the First battle for Hoover Dam was an NCR victory. Why they didn't counterattack and destroy the legion while it was in disarray is beyond me.

>> No.41245352

On the one hand, i want a government of NCR and BOS working together like in the old times, but sacrificing House and his pre-war tech ...Fucking old technowizard.

>> No.41245361

Because then Hanlon would have been the Hero of NCR with a firm grip on the hearts and minds of all the soldiers and citizens and could easily have ridden that fame into high office.

>> No.41245428

>You need the East to hold the West.

Only if you want to take the entire NCR like a retard. Lanius is no strategist and clearly was never intended to be Caesar's successor, that was Graham, but Graham fucked up and Caesar needed a scapegoat. Lanius was always just a big scary motherfucker who could lead troops.

>> No.41245437


President Hanlon is a man I'd follow all the way to Flagstaff.

>> No.41247147

More important.

Where are the Horses?

>> No.41247643

All in Kentucky where they should be with the Colonel and the Khals.

>> No.41248688

>Even if we take the dam we will be so depleted
The Legion is much larger than we see in the game. There's two Legates that we see in game, and the region they occupy is almost as big as NCR territory, so you can bet they've got a lot more. The Legion will be able to take Vegas, even if he had Mk 2s, especially if the Omertas are on the Legion side at the end.
Not to mention their deals with the Khans and the Fiends. The Omertas open the gates to the Strip, then send in the Fiends and Khans, and clean up with your own troops. The Securitrons are powerful, but without the ones in the bunker they're very limited.

>> No.41248755

Because of General "Wait and See" Oliver
Troops have open contempt for their General, and he's pissed that Hanlon won the first fight when his own troops got ground up and spit out

>> No.41250717

>all these bethesda babies shitting up /tg/ with their video game threads
go and take your TES threads too

>> No.41250854

Really, in theory, as long as whoever was in charge of the Legion didn't go to the extreme of 'The Brotherhood is a threat we need to wipe out', they could make excellent roommates.

I mean, one of the big motivations for Caesar not wanting the Legion to make use of technology is to prevent humanity from eventually wiping itself out completely with another nuclear war. That's also one of the Brotherhood's top fears/goals.

Legion doesn't want pre-war tech, or anyone to use it. Brotherhood hoards pre-war tech and keeps anyone (but themselves) from using it, and are quicker to hide out than to attack with what they have.

In theory...

>> No.41250965

Horses are exitinct in Fallout.

That bit in All Roads was an error.

(Now, mechanical horses...)

>> No.41252198

>House > NCR > Legion > Independent
Your opinion a shit
>House is a pre war genius, able to prevent 50+ warheads from hitting Vegas
That was like 50% luck of having the right tools at the right time man. He's smart to have prepared for it but so was so many other people he just had a 10 Luck
>Intelligent, have a sense for business, have a sense for technology, the only one capable of restoring humanity and leading it to greatness.
>implying he isn't keeping a status quo of pre-war times and leads to stagnancy and decay with no progress
>implying he actually cares about humanity as opposed to just his little "paradise" of pre-war splendor
>NCR is good... if you are one of the rich and greedy who use democracy as a tool to control population who have no real power
>hurr durr life sure does suck for the average joe in the Republic when it's shown that it's only rough on the furthest edges of the nation
>check all those free ranch farmers and land owners bullied into submission
>Implying they wouldn't be subjugated by any of theajor power sans independent
>Legion is fucking insane, they are based on bullshit (>son of mars, >22xx) and are anti intellectual. A recipe for catastrophe where men live like a cattle.
I agree wholeheartedly
>Independent does not have required organization to achieve anything
>Big MT tech and Think Tank knowledge
>United/allied factions working together to better themselves and others barring the minor exceptions like BoS
>"anarchy rules the street" and its just a matter of time before entire Vegas become another raider/junkie cesspool.
Big MT tech to keep longevity of Courier, upgraded Securitrons to keep order, also debatably dead BoS, Fiends, Khans, and Raiders to keep order and good living
>And I like raider/junkie cesspools.
Fucking scum

>> No.41255151

>50% luck
Sorry, but no. House drew out a set of calculations that told him that there would be war, used his wealth that he not only built up but had to defend from his brother along the way, and then was still unlucky enought that the platinum chip was on its way to him when war broke out, preventing the defense system from being completed, and thus dooming Vegas to destruction.

>> No.41255383

A lot of shitting on Independent? Not on my watch. If you're playing with all the DLC, even if the Courier as an evil dick, at level 50, given the keys to the city they are the most powerful force out of any faction. Unless you dropped your Int to 1 and focused on hitting shit with sticks, the Courier will be an expert in nearly all fields.

Let's say it's an optimized Courier with good intentions at level 50. That's most likely going to be a 100 in every skill but even if it's not, then most weapons skills are useless for running a state so generally the Couriers would have 100 in their chosen weapon stat and all support stats.With the rails of vidya taken off, all of those skills could be put to immense, godlike works!

Repair and Science at 100
>Hoover Dam and Helios repaired to full functionality.
>Dozens of old factories brought into operation.
>Scores of wandering or haywire robots converted into more laborers/soldiers.

Speech, Barter and Medicine (Psychology) at 100
>All Mojave factions united
>NCR can't lift a finger against a great hero of their own damn Republic without their PR tanking.
>Legion may even be persuaded to trade.
>Non-lethal methods of capturing jackals and vipers may see them be capable citizens after some solid rehab.

Sure, you could do these few things and more with many other factions at the helm but Caesar and House outright say to kill some factions and the NCR would wrap you up in red tape.

Good Courier Vegas is best Vegas.

>> No.41255602


>dealing with the fiends


>> No.41255943

Pretty sure they do it. I could be wrong, but there's a side-quest to find a Frumentarii agent at Camp McCarren, and you overhear him making a radio call to another agent to arrange for a Fiend ambush of an NCR patrol.

>> No.41255968

Ah i forgot.

But after that the legion slaughters them for being the degenerates they are.

>> No.41255978

Yeah, a lot of Caesar's tactics hinge on riling up locals and getting them to fight the NCR, and then fucking them over later.

>> No.41256008

the great khans just get anschlussed.

They are drug dealers, but at least they have some kind of tribal culture and they were a pain in the NCRs ass for so long, the legion just has to accept them.

Not sure about the jackals and the vipers. There are some named Jackals and vipers in Northern vegas. I can imagine they are leftovers from a cut quest.

Thanks Bethesta for never finishing a game.

>> No.41256054

>Implying Bethesta had much to do with NV
>Implying unfinished games are the creators fault and not the publishers for accelerating deadlines so that content gets released as DLC

>> No.41256170

>I'd kill Caesar (it will solidify morale by killing him rather than have him die of a brain tumor)
The Legion is basically a personality cult. Lanius has his authority from the will of Caesar, killing him won't transfer that to you. They're dumb but they ain't Klingon dumb.

>> No.41256224

The personality cult is the bad thing.

Imagine them having actual roman law and culture in their lands. A Senate ,Citizen status etc.

Then let them accept some of the pre-war tech, as long they can reproduce it. This would be a amazing post-war civilization.

>> No.41256323

Is this from Fallout 3?

>> No.41256395

Aye. You find some audio logs on the mothership where the ayys torture some commander to get launch-codes.

There are more hints in the older games that the government/the enclave reverse engineered their tech.

>> No.41256428

> How to you defeat the NCR
>NCR has Vertibirds

You dont.

>> No.41256436

wasn't that launch codes thing never voiced or otherwise obtainable without looking thru the geck?

>> No.41256515

nope, its in the game.

People sometimes argue MZ wasn't canon because it was too silly, since they don't understand that fallout was never meant to be serious or utter grimdark. It has depth, but that doesn't mean you can't fight aliens with your samurai buddy, or have discussions with your own brain.

>> No.41256722


If you play a Courier that want to be a benevolent dictator then you have the potential to build Vegas into a vibrant utopia.

Int 10 and putting all of your prodigious skill points into useful shit like Speech, Barter, Science, Medicine, Repair, Survival and possibly Sneak essentially turns your dude into a perfect leader. It doesn't even matter if you took all your special points out of Cha and Luck to get them there when you have 100 in the skills.

Combine the perfect leader with all of the tech from the Big Empty, regular salvage runs to the Sierra Madre, covertly deactivating and salvaging all of the robots from everywhere and you have a techno-army that, whilst not being able to move all that far from New Vegas, is extremely powerful on its home ground. Also the City has its own reactor. Probably not enough to power much back in the day but in the post-post-apocalypse hardly anyone uses electricity so its enough for the Cities minimal needs.

With no need to use the dam or the solar power station all that energy can be given to the NCR as a good will gesture. And Helios has been repaired to full operational status and the dam is looking pretty good as well because 100 repair and science skills. NCR now have no reason to invade because you are giving them everything they wanted and more whilst till getting everything you wanted.

Then we move on to the Allegiances and factions. Idolized by the NCR, everyone on the Strip, every independent settlement in and around Vegas, the Khans, the Boomers, Brotherhood and the Followers. Everyone else, Fiends, Powder Gangers, Legion and the like all despise you beyond words but thats okay because they are mostly to busy facing extinction.

By the end of it you are a living god. Sure everything will fall apart if you die but

>implying anything can kill you

By level 50 with the right perks and shit you can go to the Divide, strip naked, put your forehead on a warhead and detonate it and just about survive.

>> No.41256877


I would have actually rather kept the Powder Gangers in the equation. Sure, the guys screwing with Goodsprings could fuck off however they are a resource. Helping them in the prison raid (no matter how covertly you have to do it) still leaves you with a viable faction which has an easy in with the Khans and perhaps connections into the Vipers and such.

Get them to stop being such shit heads and the prison could turn into a viable settlement, with easy trade access to Primm, the Brotherhood and Goodsprings, a friggin' hub.

If we make a stretch, dying might be put off by the Courier slowly going more cybernetic, piece by piece with help from the big MT.

>> No.41256927

>Reform the social hierarchy. As it stand there are Masters and Slaves and sweet bugger all else.
That's not how the Legion operates.

Everyone in the Legion is a slave to Caesar, this is why in the introduction they call the Legion an army of slaves instead of an army of slaves. Some slaves just do have authority over one another.

> There should be Citizens, Subjects and Slaves.
People not being directly members of the Legion but still living in their territories are already subjects. They have to pay tribute and follow orders when given, otherwise they are free to live a boring but safe life

Also the Legionary people you meet in-game are extremely aggressives because they are soldiers and on the frontlines, stuff like mutilations and beatings doesn't happen as often in Legion territory, just at the borders

>> No.41256946

>they call the Legion an army of slaves instead of an army of slaves
fuck, I meant "they call the Legion an army of slaves instead of an army of slavers"

>> No.41257055

> people actually think 100 in a skill = perfect in the Falloutverse

>> No.41257082

100 is just the maximum the Courier can attain. Remember that the Vault Dweller can hit 200 in any skill, and F2's chosen one can hit 300. Even with a Speech of 100 you can't make Caesar decide to be best buddies with the NCR or something. You are FAR from a perfect leader.

>> No.41257114

Not perfect. Just good enough.

>> No.41257405

why would Ashur be dead? siding with him is the good choice, he has the same morals as Lyons developed later, just in a shittier place. if V76 (just outside the playable area of the pitt) has a GECK they could build a second purifier and cleanse the Chugamunky and restore the Pitt to true life.

Wherner would turn it back into the hive of scum it was before the BoS scouring

>> No.41257463


>> No.41257747

Unite all possible tribes, Khans etc, then murder the shit out of the Fiends, just because they can, and it would make an example of them.

Then, take Hoover Dam. Build up an actual long-term settlement on or near it, using its electricity to get a good grasp on actual civility. Try to locate as many ghouls as possible to interrogate on old world technology, then attempt to strike up an Alliance with the Brotherhood of Steel.
>Stay in your bunkers, and hoard your technology. We do not care for it.
After murdering/annexing NCR villages to such a degree that the NCR isn't even a proper organization outside of Vegas, locate a nuclear bomb, then bomb the shit out of the town centre because of spite.

>> No.41257798

You could also motivate the Khans to live to their name, they will found a big realm in the north.

>> No.41259435

With Followers help. They could be a calming factor.

>> No.41260834


100 Barter talks the "Monster of the East" down from attacking. Fucking. Barter. And Lanius t'ain't exactly as thoughtful as Graham or Caesar, all the nigga does is blood for the blood God his way through conquest with just enough tactics to scrape by.

100 isn't perfect, but seeing what it does and adding it to free form Tabletop play with creativity makes it essentially more potent than anything else when unrestrained from one of the big three factions.

>> No.41261101

Game programming

>> No.41261656

Lanius was always supposed to have hidden depths.

The fact that he'd actually listen to a reasonable, honest, and sound argument for why taking the Dam would be a bad idea at that time for the Legion isn't that unreasonable, really.

The 100 Barter meant you had the skill to convey the complicated economics involved in making that situation so to someone who isn't an expert in such things, and one who is unlikely to listen to anything but an EXTREMELY good reason for staying his hand.

It was Caesar that was obssessed with taking the NCR, anyway. Lanius is likely quite happy with the Legion remaining as it is, rather than transitioning into an actual Civilization layered over the NCR's groundwork. You don't 'trick' him with that Barter check, you just present the cold hard facts and he chooses to accept them...for the time being.

>> No.41261797

The first step is to implement a series of military reforms. Caesar is a strong leader but I think he has drawn the wrong conclusion as to how to structure this army.

First we destroy all pre-fall hardware. All of it. Maybe with the exception of some stuff used by the elites. Caesar is a man of vast learning and so am I. Forget scavenging. We need to start making our own equipment. Nevada is full of iron deposits, we can start smelting iron ourselves. Our weakness is a result of our reliance on scavanged gear. Football pads are not real protection. If we could produce our own hardware that would be a great step towards overcoming the logistical hurdles we will have to face later.

Secondly we need to identify why exactly the NCR is able to stand against us to begin with, and attack that. They've got more guns than we do, and they have a defensible position, but they seem like they're really bad at actually stopping us from crossing the river and wreaking havoc all over their shit. We need to step up these operations. Their problem is that they are weak. Like the United States in the 1960s, their country is populated mostly by cowards and traitors, people whose soft lifestyles and detachment from reality prevent them from understanding the threat that we represent on a geopolitical level. This means that they will sabotage their own war effort as soon as it becomes uncomfortable for them.

In other words we need to start crucifying a lot of Californians, fast. We should also be trying to infiltrate them culturally at this juncture, sending immigrants in who can try to push a narrative of Californian Imperialism and how the Legion really just wants to destroy existing class systems or some such nonsense. Call them homophobes maybe, blame their opposition of the Legion on the buttsex. Convince the people that their morality conflicts with their geopolitical interests. Weaklings will choose the former ever time.


>> No.41261894

It also translates literally to grain in Latin although I had not been aware of that contextual meaning of the word. Thank you for educating me, anon.

>> No.41261926

Thirdly, and this is principle, the whole "kill everybody enslave everything" plan needs to go. It's not sustainable. An army of slaves is a bad idea. What we need is a concept of citizenship. The idea that there is Legion, and then there are subjects. You can't join the Legion, you can only be born into it. Foreigners who join our cause or are subjugated can serve as auxiliaries, and their children can then be Legion.

This way we don't have to fucking kill all of our manpower every time we dominate a tribe or a new nation. Killing all the adults and indoctrinating the kids sounds like it'd work fine, but all it really means is that we've now got a shitton of new dependents and nobody to work for their upkeep.

Once people hear that we're not doing the whole genocide thing anymore, maybe they won't run screaming into the arms of the NCR or House or whoever as soon as they see us coming. If they think we can be negotiated with, if they think that maybe we'll let them keep their way of life, they might see us as a better option to the NCR.

What? Of course it's a lie. We're not going to let the Great Khans keep being bandits, for example, but we can let them think that until we have destroyed our principle enemies. Then we renegotiate the terms of their status as our vassals, and assimilate them.

With these three principles: Self Reliance, Analysis, and Citizenship we have removed the three key advantages the NCR had over us, Logistics, Support, and Diplomacy. We can now produce our own hardware and fight without scavenging, our enemy's morale can be broken, and we can actually hope for allies and to subjugate peoples without wasting resources.

>> No.41262137

From there the plan is simple: Fight the physical war in a Fabian fashion. The longer they have to keep troops deployed at the Dam and the longer their kids keep coming home in garbage bags, the more the people will come to blame their own leaders for our actions. As long as we can make the war expensive, annoying, and an stable platform upon which emotional anti-war rhetoric can be built, our victory is essentially guaranteed. We can keep this up indefinitely.

Eventually, as they always do, they will abandon their allies to die at our hands and retreat back to their warm decadent cities in disgrace. Their soldiers will be called monsters and tools of the government, and they will be hesitent to act against us again for fear of furthering that stigma. Their people will pretend that they have won a great victory for peace as we butcher their supposed "friends" in New Vegas with impunity, and we will have come one step closer to an actual invasion of California itself.

Finally, after we have overrun the Mojave, we must construct a war college. The only other weakness of the Legion as I perceive it now is that its officers are, while experienced, not terribly well educated. This is probably because they were drawn up through the ranks, and while that does mean their troops are probably loyal to them, it also means they're fucking stupid, which is unacceptable. Officer candidates must be chosen at a young age and educated, both so that they can make effective commanders on the battlefield, and also so that we do not face the Lanius Problem upon my eventual death--we need a pool of potential successors who know what the inside of a book looks like.

>> No.41262139

This only works if you have literally 100 speechcraft or whatever its called.
In other words, it's such a far-fetched and implausible argument that you literally have to have a gilded tongue so nimble and toxic-sweet, that satan himself would drip with envy, and probably would let you fuck him in the ass if you ask nicely enough.

>> No.41262196

>and we will have come one step closer to an actual invasion of California itself.

Aren't there robots and power armor and plasma cannons and shit in California, Mister Legate?

>> No.41262322

Oh sure, and vertibirds, and tanks, and God knows what else, but all of those things are here, too. We obviously can't just assault California like Lanius would've wanted us to, but once we have New Vegas, the Dam, and connection to the railway, we at least have a place to start. Widespread infiltration of their society can begin in earnest, and we can start building up strength and plotting our next move.

I suspect that the key will be water, and tensions between the various constituent states of the NCR. We can fund any remaining enemies they have in the region, encourage political discord, and maybe even divide them. If we can never affect an invasion of California, than at least we can make sure they never retake Nevada.

>> No.41262524

Why are people so worried about getting the Legion to win? You want the Legion to win? Wait. All you REALLY have to do is wait. Between Hanlon and scare tactics, it would only take time before the NCR gradually pulls out.

Leave the fucking Dam alone for starters, keep the big scary fort there and operate out of it just so they can see you but don't touch the Dam. What people seem to not realize is, without the Courier, the NCR was always fucked and to an extent, House.

The only Wild Card IS Benny as his plans primarily failed to the Courier forcing his hand but I'd still be hard pressed to believe he'd succeed in the first place even with all the time in the world. In fact, the only attainable target Benny could get to would be House and if left unchecked they may weaken one another.

The NCR will lose on the public level, Nipton wasn't exactly a little town and without the Courier spreading the word, traders still have to pass through the damn place and see all the horrors of the Legion so far into NCR territory. Helios is as good as captured, the Legion is great at Guerilla warfare and the Helios array isn't well defended at all, it'd take one assassin team to capture it, tops. The NCRCF is another monument to the failures of holding this place, the raid on it would go on as normal but now you just have a once useful fort with holes in it and a bunch of convicts who possibly had families out west, all who got the death penalty for the idea of a few jackasses. The bomb on the train goes off without a hitch as well, the Deathclaws stay entrenched in Sloan, Kimball is assassinated and with just a few surgical strikes to seemingly unimportant areas, winning against the NCR is just a walk in the park.

>> No.41262594

Everyone is doing this wrong.

>Rad Child
>Auto-Inject Stimpacks
>Lots and LOTS of chems with the Chemist perk

Walk through all of the gunfire with ease, go up to every single faction leader as their personal guard fruitlessly fire on you. Break their limbs, rip out their eyes and literally rape them in the ass in front of their peers. Now you rinse and repeat as needed until every faction has been spiritually broken in a rather public fashion by some radioactive God-Monster.

>> No.41263021

>Not killing everyone
>And by everyone we mean EVERYONE
In morte, pax.

>> No.41263140

Like >>41261656 says, the point of the barter check is that you are presenting him with an argument that is correct. You can't just beat him over the head with technobabble at 100 Science, or fix his sense of humanity with 100 Repair. Options to talk Caesar out of being a dick just don't exist. No skill check will let a female Courier into the Legion Arena, without the direct word of Caesar himself (and only to fight Benny).

The option works because you are combining a receptive audience, with a good case. It doesn't let you work miracles, like fundamentally change the nature of the Legion.

>> No.41263187

Shouldn't the War College be for educating individuals who are already officers? If we do this, rather than selecting individuals from young age to be offiicers, we ensure there are no infirmities among our officers, and also ensure the officers are more disciplined at their studies at this "War College." Young men are impatient, and often refuse learning. Wiser men, who are not yet so elderly as to be incapable of change, seek out knowledge, and are aware of their deficiencies that need correction.

Another problem of the Old World was giving too much to the wasteful and reckless youth. We should not repeat this mistake

>> No.41263595

>Talking Caesar out of being a dick

Woah, hold up. Guy who vouched for Good Courier Vegas "A" here, I did not intend going beyond things like that. In my speculation, post game, idolized by NCR but independent with 100 skill points in all the relevant things and incremental, creative endeavors with that level of skill would lead to the best possible Vegas. I wasn't saying EVERYTHING was fair game like making the Legion and NCR buddy-buds but with what we've seen 100 skill checks accomplish, in a more liberated format I believe the things one can do would be astonishing.

>> No.41263617

Death is too good for them.

>> No.41263649

Kill them all. This is hell, you're the angel of redemption.

>> No.41265378

>First we destroy all pre-fall hardware. All of it. Maybe with the exception of some stuff used by the elites.

>Destroying things that are useful

Even if your ideal end state is a civilization built to not need them it's still only prudent to use them to get to that state before destroying them. Or better yet flogging pre-war artifacts to neighbor states when you have finished with them for profit.

Legion confirmed for not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

>> No.41265544

>First we destroy all pre-fall hardware.
>Call them homophobes maybe, blame their opposition of the Legion on the buttsex

Legion confirmed for gay savages

>> No.41265683

The reliance on salvaged hardware is a survivalist mentality unsuited for warfare. An armed force cannot rely on robbing the corpse of the old world to equip itself. The men must have uniform equipment that they know how to repair and can get parts or replacements for easily. It must have ammunition that can actually be produced locally instead of having to be looted from Wal-Marts. It must have logistics that do not rely on the ineptitude of rednecks to hide their guns well enough centuries ago.

In other words, they must be able to produce their own equipment and become self sufficient, and they must move past the reliance on pre-war salvage if they are to attain that self sufficiency. High end equipment can be reserved for use by elite troops. Football pads and machetes have got to go.

This does not mean that the knowledge of the past needs to be discarded, or that the tools used to construct things need to be discarded necessarily, but rather that uniform equipment and discipline are more advantageous than one guy in twenty having a bolt action rifle instead of a fire axe.

>> No.41265948

One https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0RWnBSX2sM&feature=youtu.be&t=176

>> No.41266554

>Clearly a KALTURION

>> No.41266805


It's like ear rape with a sandpaper dick.

>> No.41267459

Are we assuming a Courier is doing all this? If so, have we not factored in the missles? Hay-soos Christ, blowing up the 15 would just end the whole damn thing if the game were realistic. All NCR trade and support cut off at it's main artery. Boom. Done, the Legion would basically have to look to closely into the business end of their Ballistic Fists to fail after that point.

>> No.41268504

I was gonna make fun of NCR bag holders but that was a nice 6 point break out last month.

>> No.41269286


This. The legion only needs to burn Shady sands and the Hub; which are literally right down the damn road. Boneyard will pick itself apart, Necropolis could be exterminated down the road, Dayglow, Reno, SanFran, Maxson, Junkyard, Redding, Modoc, Vault City, Sac-town, Klamath and Arroyo would at best be tempting raiding targets (SanFran, Vault City, and Arroyo especially) but the Legion doesn't need to hold them.

HOWEVER, the problem is that the ego of Caesar is so great that it COULD force them to try to take everything before he dies; or force the successor to try as well. THAT social pressure and expectation is enough to overstretch the legion - as well, who knows how strong Shady Sands is in game? It already had walls before the NCR was a thing, Vault City had turrets, it would be concievable that Shady Sands would now have turret'd walls and with their massive population (I'll say around a million by now) the legion could literally just wash up against its walls and do nothing, if they could reach the walls at all. Tunneling might work, but even then the small number of legion might work against them in the long run.

>> No.41269793

Realize everything here is shit

And just go and stay go

>> No.41270127

I just can't take the legion seriously at all. I mean, okay, the game makes unarmed and melee equal to guns because it's vidja and its funner, I get that, I had a great unarmed character I loved playing.

But... the entire idea that assholes with shitty melee weapons (and the Legion's gear is complete shit; their greatest champion uses a fucking sharpened bumper as a weapon) who have some guns and hate medicine and technology could ever match a rifle and machinegun armed military, even a shitty military, is just ludicrous.

The fucking Black Prince of England with an army straight out of Crecy could beat the ill trained fucks, let alone anyone with anything resembling modern equipment. Not to mention that the bastards should all have died of disease, given their awful medical practices.

Everything about them is silly and ludicrous.

>> No.41270317

Only their recruits and bodyguards who work in tight confines use melee. Everyone else uses guns.

Plus it's not like they run across an open field against the ncr, whose troops are incredibly poorly trained.

>> No.41270421

I haven't had a single playthrough yet where I didn't slaughter the chucklefucks in Nipton to a man (and dog). It's just...they're just so fucking cartoonishly evil, it's the only rational response.

Honestly, if that bit wasn't so goddamn ham-handed (and then they didn't reinforce it with ridiculously clumsy crucifixions of random slaves and 'lol slavery' in places like the Cove), I almost certainly would have been a lot more open-minded toward the legion, because the other elements, the attempt to construct a society that isn't reliant on pre-war tech and is actively attempting to avoid contracting the Old World Blues and repeating the mistakes of the past.

...I keep meaning to do a legion playthrough, but I just can't quite get myself to do it, thus far...

>> No.41270532

I'm a Romaboo, I should love the legion.

Instead I just laugh at them.

They're ridiculous.

The other factions are Frontier America and a 50s egotistical Casino tycoon who keeps waifu AIs in giant, boxy unicyle security bots in his penthouse, despite being a popsickle, and yet the Legion is still less believable.

>> No.41270623

I also give my courier an 8 intelligence way too damn often, just so I can latin-spook Silus' skirt off.

It's just the funniest goddamn thing in the game, I can't resist, almost every time.

>> No.41272617


Guerilla tactics mean a lot in the waste land. It's also why you find them so silly that they're so effective at intimidation. In close to those words, several characters voice their shock at a bunch of savages with sticks being able to do what they do, but they do it. Melee also nearly guarantees a slow and painful death. Sure, if you're up against the NCR, a few bullets will put you down and you'll be on your merry way to hell but with the Legion? Their Modus Operandi is leaving people broken, bleeding and alive for hours on end. The game of the mind is just won so brutally on their end with displays like Searchlight, Nipton and Nelson.

>> No.41272933

A better question is, how do we develop the story so the Legion isn't retarded?

>> No.41274236

Honestly it wouldn't take much. The Legion already has several interesting and sympathetic elements. The biggest thing would be to remove the massacres, extreme misogyny and other things that push them over the edge into Saturday morning cartoon villain levels of evil.

So events like Nipton still happen occasionally but they aren't on orders and the Legion doesn't encourage the practice, Ceaser also disciplines those responsible, though mostly to maintain discipline. Slaves aren't crucified or killed for no reason and are treated with at least a bit of respect and decency and several slaves were criminals who chose slavery as an alternative to death for their crimes. The misogyny gets turned way down, no rape, maybe some sexual harassment at worst but mostly a "women aren't worth anything" attitude.

It mostly fixes itself after that, although there are other things you could do.
>Play up the safety the Legion provides, the NCR has trouble securing its own roads, the Legions roads are the safest in the west.

>Focus on the Legions goal of building an empire that isn't reliant on pre-war tech and how it actively rejects the old world and seeks to forge it's own path without being shackled to the past or repeating its mistakes.

>Have the player talk to some more Legion characters. Show that the Legion has some sense of camaraderie and shared identity, show that Ceaser's attempts to form them into a unified society and culture are at least somewhat successful.

>Give them officers that are capable of understanding Ceaser's vision and are actually decent leaders, they were originally tribals so there must be some good leaders among them.

>Give Ceaser some way to establish a good sucessor. Either give him some better options to pick from than just Lanius or have some system already in place. It doesn't have to be a good system, but it does need to look like he put some effort into the Legion not collapsing the second after he bites it.

>> No.41276385

I suppose the first thing that needs to be considered about Caesar's Legion is where its soldier's loyalties lie. Virtually all Legionnaires are former tribals, who have their own quarrels, their own belief systems, and their own loyalties. The only thing that brought them together was the power of mighty Caesar, Son of Mars. Frankly, it's a little surprising that it's held together at all since the first battle of Hoover Dam. Oftentimes, when an empire that rules through fear and intimidation loses in battle, that helps prove to its people that it can be defeated, and serves to foment revolution where before had only existed silent dissent. Lanius seems to be acting as a bandaid for this problem, striking renewed fear into the hearts of the Legion's members, but the only thing that can hold the Legion together for even the next few years is renewed victory, specifically the Capture of New Vegas and the Dam. Still, the legion has never acted as an occupying force in an urban environment before, and has certainly never faced the sheer number of people that live in the NCR. Not only would the Legion be stretched thin, it would be stretched thin in hostile territory. Modern armies have incredible difficulty with this. The legion wouldn't stand a chance.

But let's say Caesar is able to take the dam, as seems relatively likely given Oliver's weakness as a military leader. Then Caesar wrests control of New Vegas from House, who never manages to upgrade his securitrons and falls victim to his own mismanagement of the three families. Caesar's people now have a walled city, a small amount of arable land, access to a large amount of fresh water, and two sources of electricity, neither of which will be used.
There are dozens of factions that will be providing resistance to the legion every step of the way, but lets say that Caesar manages to find a suitable successor, and contents himself to advance slowly, taking time when necessary to put down revolts...

>> No.41276404

Everything you have just written. That would have been good.

The problem I think that F:NV had was that someone high up decided they needed good guys vs bad guys. It should have been mostly good guys vs mostly good guys who hate each other.

>> No.41276436

If I were to approach this like an elder, things would go massively different. Turning this proposed scenario on its head and stating

"You now lead all Brotherhood forces in the Mojave" would be interesting.

>> No.41276575

... he could slowly develop the Legion into a functioning empire, as opposed to a short lived expansionistic society that would be incapable of sustaining itself if it were'nt for its continued growth. Chief among the changes that need to be made is infrastructure. New roads, buildings, and probably most important- irrigation systems need to be put into place to allow for a more sedentary, agrarian society. There needs to be some form of basic nonmilitary beurocracy to properly administer these changes.

Still, even with the loss of the Dam and New Vegas, the NCR doesn't just disappear off the map. An attack of this magnitude might actually galvanize the people into fighting back. You might even see the institution of a military draft. Almost without exception, every scenario in which the Legion takes the Dam sees the NCR hitting back. Hard. So the ideal solution involves crippling them financially and militarily. A campaign of carefully chosen bombings and sabotages could weaken the NCR's grip on its own land, allowing for growth and development of the Legion. How to work it is up to your imagination.

>> No.41277082

The original tribes in the areas where the Legion sprang up were all assholes of the highest order. Sadistic, human sacrificing, cannibalistic shitheads convinced that anyone not born to their tribe wasn't really human. Go full asshole with them.

Caesar unites the outcasts and the exiles and the few groups of not irredeemable into the beginning of what would become The Legion.

He then deliberately went out to massacre the warriors and elders of the other tribes. The women, children under 15ish, slaves and non-combatants willing to renounce their old tribes were then taken in by The Legion.

Caesar was a Follower of the Apocalypse. He knows how to agriculture, metal work and organize things. He was also reasonably good with languages, but not good enough.

Along comes Joshua Graham to spread the Word of God. He is very good with languages. He takes Joshua along as his translator, Joshua uses the opportunity to spread the Good News even further.

Caesar's wars are brutal. Holy fuck yes. If you fight his legion all of your fighting force dies to the last man, no mercy and no prisoners. The social order is usually fair but strict and hard.

Tribes that bend the knee willingly and submit to Caesar's laws and authority without fighting usually retain some level of autonomy within the Legion Lands. Their warriors are usually used to police other tribes who were less cooperative and the rest of the tribe is convinced to take up farming to feed the Legion.

They take land that the NCR believes should be theirs, the NCR has land that the Legion wants. Mostly the lake. City would be nice but the lake and the river are what the Legion wants the most. SO much farm land. With that lovely fresh water they could sit down for the next hundred years and just dig in and build up.

Both Legion and NCR have a bit of a Divine Mandate mentality. NCR isn't going to stop until it hits the other shore and Legion want the dam and surrounding lands regardless of other claims.

>> No.41277136

By the time of the First Battle Caesar knows he is dying. He wants to leave his people in state where they can fend for themselves and be a real civilization.

By the time of the 2nd Battle he has, at most, a few months to live. He knows it and so does his inner circle. He appoints a successor and plans to commit suicide by poison to make it look natural. He can't let the troops see him wither away, dying drooling and shitting himself as his body and brain fail. It would be bad for moral. Better to go sooner. Either his second in command (who secretly is shit scared of the job) because he's the only other ex-Follower in high office or the Courier with ex-Follower as his sigillite.

>> No.41277303

>no rape
But then how will they replenish their numbers?

>> No.41277538

consensual sex in the missionary position with lots of loving eye contact and gentleness

The Legion knows limit to its sickness.

>> No.41277876

So there's still rape them.

>> No.41277880

It's not rape if there's love

>> No.41277930

Hard to argue with that, the legion has some fine hunks on their side.
They mount their men as much as their women

>> No.41278423

They are taking the slow logical and stable approach

Legion use the fast ultra aggressive approach without focusing largely on stability, its just a different philosophy on development

In the camp when you fight in the arena, no matter what rank the legionnaires are they all mention how the NCR trooper is unbeatable and scary in unarmed combat and how they couldn't believe someone could beat it.

The NCR have the advantage of actively using their stockpiled technology as well as their other resources, however corrupt and poor ran their management currently is.

>> No.41278456


Legion officials have done research and it appears that the majority of people enjoy gang rape.

>> No.41278466

I have no idea why "rape" and "massacres" is Saturday Morning Cartoon stuff, though I want to watch SMCs wherever you live sometime.

Rape and massacres aren't edgy or unrealistic for the post apocalypse. Pic related is about the normal level to expect.

>> No.41278556


The Enclave would probably stay out of it, but it would be awesome to see.them pound the Legion in the ass.

>> No.41278894

>Vipers, who nobody can actually beat.

>> No.41279143

Second this question

>> No.41279188


I believe it's along the lines of radroaches: no matter how hard you try, the Vipers just don't seem to die. They're annoying at worst, but they're there, being alive and a pain in the ass.

>> No.41279199


Fug, meant >>41278894

>> No.41279668

I don't think anyone has ever played fallout and wanted it to be that realistic.

>> No.41280181

>House is a pre war genius, able to prevent 50+ warheads from hitting Vegas. Intelligent, have a sense for business, have a sense for technology, the only one capable of restoring humanity and leading it to greatness.
Oh look, a trully functional vault. Let's fill it with concrete, it does not look "pre-war" enough for my special snowglobe.

>> No.41280448

The rape and massacres push them to a level where you couldn't expect a player to reasonably support them because they're so blatantly evil. No matter how admirable their goals and how much more effective they are then the NCR they're still a bunch of mass murdering rapist assholes. It more or less negates whatever good qualities they have.

>> No.41281959

To be fair, Sarah did mention that House ripped every bit of functional pre-war tech out of the condemned sections first, and it's what he used to restore his securitrons and much of the Strip.

But yes, still dangerously short-sighted. The most reasonable (barely) explanation is that the 21 ran close to the Lucky 38's underground facilities, and was therefore a security risk, but...

>> No.41282126

It was to keep people from using the vault as a way to get into the Lucky 38 and to get out of the city.

Which sorta failed because he didn't use enough concrete and benny was able to find a way out anyways.

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