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[ERROR] No.40001367 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Outsider Edition, whatever the fuck that means. What's the best race of outsides, and why is it the Azata?

>> No.40001410

Threadly reminder that Swashbuckler is the best class in Pathfinder

Threadly reminder that futanari mahou shojo tieflings vs motherly robots is the best unwritten Adventure Path

>> No.40001425


Still accepting suggestions on which classes fit into which Paizo class roles best, especially Harbinger and Mystic, as well as any archetypes I missed.

>> No.40001444

They're terrible because there's no playable race of lamias and looking at them makes me jealous.

No, I'm not going to put in a meager amount of effort and tweak the aasimar race by adding a serpentine lower body or something. Please help me in my quest.

>> No.40001461

How does the Unquiet Grave discipline fare for a Harbinger?

>> No.40001465


>literal shit tier lamias
>not godly tier naga masterrace


>> No.40001499

You a shit.

>> No.40001539

I want to cum inside Lillends

>> No.40001546

Now, now, gentlemen. This is no place to be shittalking others waifus.

Anubis master race reporting in.

>> No.40001597

How does one archer hunter? Is it a viable style?
Is the Megaloceros mechanically worthwhile? They look cool.

>> No.40001643


>How does one archer hunter

Be a Nature Fang druid instead

>> No.40001664

>Archer Hunter
Same way as you'd Archer Druid, except you're more pet-focused. You'd focus on the archery bit more than a Druid would though, because you're not as spellcasting-focused.

Megaloceros is pretty decent. It's no Allosaurus, but it's no slouch.

>> No.40001927

Bitch, you got two, count 'em, TWO playable snake-folk races in Pathfinder: Nagaji and Vishkanya. Pick one of them and just add a tail.

>Nagaform: Some Nagaji/Vishkanya take after their ancestors in a more bodily way than ones. These people have a long serpentine tail for a lower body, rather than two legs. Though this doesn't affect their base speed or size category, it does afford them extra stability compared to their two-legged counterparts. Nagaform Nagaji/Vishkanya gain a +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground. This trait replaces the Armored Scales trait for Nagaji and the Poison Resistance trait for Vishkanya.

Boom, easy.

Go ask Chiie.

Isn't Anubis a deity, not a whole race of outsiders?

>> No.40001941

Previous thread

The ability to look back through past generals easily is helpful. In the past few threads, I can think of at least three times someone asked something which had been answered a few threads back, and I was able to quickly find it and copy paste it, or easily link him to the appropriate thread.

Could you try to include a link when you make a new thread?

>> No.40001969

Yes, Anubis is. That doesn't change the fact that an entire race of Anubises would be an amazing thing.

>> No.40002028

Do any of the pow classes get an animal companion, familiar, or eidolon?

>> No.40002041


I fucking hate how every fantastical creature has to be turned into an entire race

>Greek mythology has a single medusa? NO, THERE MUST BE MILLIONS.
>Greek mythology has a single minotaur? NO, THERE MUST BE MILLIONS.

>> No.40002075

I don't believe so.

>> No.40002115

When are all the variant rules from Unchained going to be on pathflounder SRD? I can't find VMC

>> No.40002130

There's an archetype for Harbinger that grants them a Bird animal companion that's as smart as they are. Its kinda cool

>> No.40002155


Hmm. Thanks.

>> No.40002163

Don't forget the Omen Rider, which gets a mount that functions as a druid's animal companion.

Damn, Harbinger is the best. Just the best.

>> No.40002194

New Wordspells in Occult Adventures or we riot

>> No.40002196

Yeah, for the most part, I like the PF/Golarion take on the outsiders, the Evil Outsiders got disproportionate attention, but everything is better fleshed out than 3.5.

I really dig the Kami/Oni, Kytons (HELLRAISER WOOO), Inevitables and Angels. The only ones that miss the mark are Qlippoths and Proteans. I don't understand Qlippoths residing in the lowers planes and not a realm beyond, a _far realm_. Proteans are just like fucking boring, too much like demons. Slaads are certainly odd, but I understand there are copyright problems.

>> No.40002328

Best APs Paizo has put out and reasons?

Best Chronicles supplements Paizo has put out and reasons?

>> No.40002352

What about the playtest stuff?

Ideally something that combines combat styles and a full druid companion from the druid list with pow stuff.

Though a pow martial with an eidolon like a summoner (but ideally can stay overnight and received healing) would also be fantastic. Build my own magical beast mount, or an oni cohort, or whatever. Bonus points if I'm not limited to outsiders or outsider types, and the eidolon system is expanded to allow me to build multiple creature types.

Is there anything like either of those?

>> No.40002397

Well, IIRC Medusa was unique, but only because Medusa was a specific person- there were other "Medusae", except they were actually called Gorgons. Medusa was a pretty human girl that was turned into a Gorgon because some goddesses got jealous of her for being so pretty. Man, I hate Greek mythology.

I'm pretty fond of the Qlippoth, actually, and one day I'll totally run a campaign themed on investigating them and in the process learning some scary, fundamental facts about existence. Anyway, the Qlippoth do reside in a far-away realm, in a manner of speaking- it's true that technically speaking they share the Abyss with Demons, but the Abyss is the only plane that extends out infinitely. There's no end to it, the Abyss just goes deeper and deeper as far as anyone knows... And the Qlippoth hail from the "deep Abyss", where even the Demons don't go. As for Proteans, I don't really see how they seem too similar to Demons beyond the shared chaotic alignment. They aren't the most interesting race of outsiders, but they're still kind of interesting.

Also, even though they aren't technically a race of outsiders, I think the fae can be cool. Exploring the First Would would be interesting, I think, and Fey have a lot of different representatives that would be helpful if you were running a fae-focused campaign.

>> No.40002439

Nope. Likely by intention.

The intention is not to give you an initiator who actually happens to be two martial characters; it's to make martials who are fun and effective in play.

>> No.40002532

>not having a charismatic as all hell noble scion/warlord 10 with a loyal warder nohomo friend

>> No.40002535

CL for spell effects = your character level

Each class has a separate thing called caster level that determines max spell level/spell slots per day

All classes have the same spell list

Wizards gain 1 CL every level
Clerics gain 3/4 CL every level
Paladins gain 1/2 CL every level
Fighters gain 1/4 CL every level

>> No.40002537

Wow, the first time I've heard anything about the Harbinger other than bitching about it being too SAD, bitching about it not being SAD enough, or "so edgy".

>> No.40002585

So you think you can't have a martial character that's fun to play that is also a pet-class?

Why is that exactly?

>> No.40002694

I never said that. I am simply saying that an Eidolon or full-Druid-level animal companion are highly unlikely, beyond something similar to their Ranger archetype.

The Initiator is the star of the show. An animal companion/eidolon generally either ends up being mostly a flanking buddy, or if the opposite case, he's way stronger than the actual character at the fighting role, and that's pretty against DSP's intentions.

>> No.40002774

There's also the third option of having it be two equal but different parts of a whole.

Out of curiosity, why does the initiator need to be where the bulk of the power lies?

Why not have a fairly unimpressive initiator with an interesting Drake mount?

>> No.40002776

So no maneuver school for animal companions, then?

>> No.40002867

Because you don't play the Drake, you play the Initiator. While most DMs do allow players to control the animal companions, that's actually a house rule.

Pretty much, the Initiator is supposed to be a one-man-show (not in the sense that they don't help the party, because that's obviously untrue), with the Ranger archetype being the notable exception. The Omen Rider pretty specifically is stuck with a horse (unless the DM goes out of their way to allow other options) and most people don't like horses as animal companions.

The Ranger archetype's AC gets to use Primal Fury maneuvers.

>> No.40002875

Or an initiator who is not too impressive on his own, but fights alongside 1+ duplicates of himself, multiple man style.

>> No.40002919

So make an explicit mention that the two things are controlled by the player, like there's a telepathic hive mind or something.

>> No.40003187

My dissapoint in the Proteans is that their designs don't set them apart from Demons and Qlippoths very well. They needed some kind of more iconic trait. If I were inventing some new CN paragon outsiders, I'd probably have them be less "DESTROY, CORRUPT, CONFUSION" and more as subtle trickers, with tempremental attitudes. Its hard to see PCs interacting with Proteans beyond combat.

Qlippoths just seemed to generic, there have been some many lovecraftian monsters in DnD, the bar is set pretty high.

>> No.40003368

They seem different to me, I guess, because I see it less as a "DESTROY, CORRUPT, CONFUSION" and more like "Political agenda: Advance CHAOS in multiverse" where as demons are "DESTROY, CORRUPT, CONFUSION" and Qlippoth are "Yo man fuck demons and fuck you for turning into them when you die".

>> No.40003451

Not gonna lie, a Dragonrider-style archetype would be baller as all hell. Hilariously powerful and having no actual place with the rest, but it could be a fun homebrew class.

Why are you so obsessed with multiple characters?

>> No.40003486

Why isn't there a PoW/Psionic class/archetype that lets me play 3 characters? One is a fighter, one is a rogue, the other is a spellcaster

>> No.40003536

I'm not sure if your trying to say something or just asking a really weird question.

In any case, you don't need 3pp. Play a Master Summoner.

>> No.40003587

He's trolling the idiot spamming his stupid question.

>> No.40003624

The fuck are you talking about?

>> No.40003705

Because it's a lot of fun, anon.

Not all the time, but sometimes I want to pay a tag-team, or more.

I ran a hound master cavalier (gets two wolves) one time with a warg cohort via leadership. Coordinating a small squad in combat instead of always just using a single guy is highly entertaining.

It's not always what I want to play, but maybe 1/4 times I want to control a couple dudes in combat.

Running a 5-man team against the players is one of the more fun parts of doing, too. Sure, that five man team is set up to lose, but not without making the PCs work for it first.

>> No.40003758

Well, that's easy. Just do what >>40002532 said and have everyone be noble scions with a few initiator levels.

>> No.40003816

>the PCs face when the enemy team is entirely summons, animal companions, eidolons, and cohorts and they get 0 exp and 0 treasure for winning

>> No.40003839

So when do I get to have a loving Azata waifu for my futa tiefling to bond with over their shared passion for music, who makes the tiefling mellow out some and stop being so evil and murdery but is in turn taught by her tiefling waibando to enjoy a newfound breeding fetish?

>> No.40003861

But I don't get the wiiiiings

>> No.40003862

Since I'm the one who asked about a pow beast master, I assume you mean me?

I'm hardly spamming anything. I made two posts, and thereafter responded to the replies others had made to them.

Yes, I'm disappointed there isn't more support for pet classes, but it is what it is, and I've gotten the answer I was looking for regarding their availability.

That said, if you want to discuss a more interesting topic than concepts you wish were doable in this game that are not, then present one. What do you want to discuss instead?

>> No.40003902

I still want a martial discipline that uses fly as its class skill.

>> No.40003956

Yeah, I suppose noble scion 2 is a decent way to add in a PC cohort.

Doesn't, for instance, give you a sweet Drake mount though (unless you have a really easy going gm).

>> No.40003958

Well dandy, now you have a motivation for you character. Gain a pair of wings for yourself, I'm sure if you adventure long enough you'll be able to afford some magic item or something. Do good deeds along the way.

>> No.40003985

that's not the same thing

>> No.40004009

Rustled Feathers Style soon.

>> No.40004042

They are part of the experience value of their masters. You actually gain the XP for vanquishing the traps / summoner / Conjurer and NPCs they serve.

Probably modified due to less powerful since they couldn't use all their class abilities.

>> No.40004049

So get yourself a gm like me who lets people play misters all the time, and slaps together a base race and PRC/archetype for them to use.

a gm like me, not actually me, because I only game in person, and it's tremendously unlikely you live in my city

>> No.40004086


Fucking auto correct

>> No.40004095

For real?

>> No.40004134

Just keep checking the blog.

>> No.40004207

What are the best Bloodlines/Mysteries to use with the new variant multiclassing?

>> No.40004439


VMC a shit

>> No.40004448

No mysteries, because Oracle VMC is AWFUL. Sorcerer is okay, and I think better than Eldritch Heritage. Depends on the bloodline though, of course.

>> No.40004538


VMC sorcerer is actually worse than plain Eldritch Heritage (unless you just don't have the charisma)

Leave it to fucking PAIZURI to copy from themselves and fuck it up

>> No.40004569

It's kind of impressive that they managed to make every option pretty awful. The Wizard one (how surprising!) is pretty much the only VMC that isn't hilariously awful. Maybe the Alchemist one, too, but not as much.

>> No.40004576

Stop making me associate something great with an awful company!

>> No.40004628

>want to play Ranger
>no one to play with

Feels bad.

>> No.40004671

I know, right? It's been bothering me, too.

Yeah, nah. Playing Bob and his Hilariously Overpowered Animal Companion might sound fun, but then you are not only taking twice as long per turn as a normal Initiator, you're pretty much playing the Drake and his tagalong. Sounds like a convoluted excuse to just play a Drake instead of a normal character.

I know that feel. I finally managed to get a Witchguard Ranger into a PbP game, though, and he's lots of fun. Too bad his Favored Enemy hasn't come up in a while, though.

>> No.40004728

Is the Duelist prestige class a good idea for a bard in frontline combat?

>> No.40004734


The company is called Paizuri because 90% of what they do is Jason Bulgeman and James Jacobs putting their dicks between each other's manboobs while fantasizing about their waifus/self inserts in Golarion

>> No.40004766


Duelist is a bad idea for everyone


Doubly so for Bard because it doesn't give them... anything. Or advance ANY of their abilities, spellcasting, anything. It's pure shit.

>> No.40004784

It can't be too bad for Core Monks, in fact its probably an improvement for them.

>> No.40004794


They're based on different mental stats, the Duelist doesn't progress any of the Bard's actual good class features/spellcasting, and it's actually not even that good at fighting in the first place.

Yeah, nah. Paizuri is a beautiful thing, when a dude's waifu wants to bring his manhood as close to her heart as possible. It's an act of love, and not even Bulhman and crew's terrible awfulness can impinge on that.

>> No.40004806

What does /tg/ think of
Lionheart Knight, Technique Master, Ferocious Warmaster, Trickshot Gunman, Foereaver, & Doombringer?

Are they any good?

>> No.40004827

I have no idea what any of those things are.

>> No.40004855

PoW Archetypes for Paizo Classes
LK is Paladin, TM is Fighter, FW is Barbarian, TG is Gunslinger, FR is Ranger, and DB is Antipaladin.

>> No.40004882

The only link I found to them was marked for deletion, so I made a copy so I could read it.

>> No.40004883

How so? You take the VMC, you give up five feats (but one of the VMC sorcerer features is a bonus feat, admittedly from a small list of options but still there) to gain five bloodline abilities. You go with Eldritch Heritage, and you have to take 4 or 5 feats (Skill Focus tax plus basic, Improved, and Greater EH plus Improved as second time if you want the other ability), have to have a high CHA, and have to deal with your effective sorcerer level being your level -2 the whole time.

I won't say the VMC is unconditionally better, especially if you're going after a bloodline with an associated skill that isn't so bad to have Skill Focus in, or if you only want to go part-way up the tree to snag a specific ability and stop. But it's not flat-out worse than the Eldritch Heritage feats either.

Witchguard tempts and taunts me with the theoretical possibility of a necromancer ranger, but it doesn't do necromancy things for a long time, is shit at necromancy things when it does start doing them, and also forces me to use the fluff and mechanics of a witchguard.

>> No.40004900

There's a playtest document for Summoner, too.

>> No.40004911


Eldritch Heritage gives you 9th level ability at level 11, VMC gives it at level 15

Eldritch Heritage gives you 15th level ability at level 17, VMC gives it at level 19

>> No.40005083

VMC doesn't require a high charisma score. But really, why not do both?

>> No.40005119

Because you'll have pretty much no feats left.

>> No.40005143

>But really, why not do both?
>put that shit on either a bloodrager, arcanist, or eldritch scion
I am become Mary, the Sue-est of them all!

>> No.40005151

I could see reasons for it, but it'd be a specific build. Likely, you wouldn't want to go the full Eldritch Heritage line.

But mostly, I don't think I'll be asking my DM about Variant Multiclassing. The balance is so out of whack (poor, poor, paladin VMC). It's got a smooth implementation, but dropped the ball on balance and viability.

>> No.40005163


>tfw Andoran Bloodrager with Draconic, Angelic, and Arcane bloodlines

>> No.40005180

Oh yeah, do a Crossblooded Bloodrager (Abyssal/Celestial), then take the Protean line through Eldritch Heritage and the Impossible bloodline (for your Inevitable ancestor) with Variant Multiclass

>> No.40005208

Don't forget to pick a race like half-elf or undine while you're at it, for maximum mud-blood!

>> No.40005227

>not Aasimar (Scion of Humanity)

>> No.40005286


>implying you have enough feats for that

At least half-elf gets racial bonus feat for entry into eldritch heritage

>> No.40005307

Male that a Cross blood bloodrager Celestial/draconic with your others being and Destined and Elemental

Nah, go either Suli or Kitsune

>> No.40005352

No, because he's already got celestial blood in him from being a bloodrager. Don't double-up like that. Also, as a half-elf, make sure you take Racial Heritage (Kobold), or some other race you haven't already tapped as far as ancestry goes.

>> No.40005375

>tfw no Brawler POW archetype

>> No.40005377

What makes Path of War so much better? Skimming through it, maneuvers seem to still all be attacks, without utility powers for dealing with out of combat problems.

>> No.40005380

>racial heritage Tengu
>Become the Swordian

>> No.40005414


I don't see how this is a response to half-elves getting skill focus as a bonus feat


Just as long as we're on the same page, the attempted joke was Andoran with Red White and Blue bloodlines

>> No.40005419

Because it gives you utility in combat, and encourages developing more skills (because disciplines are tied to class skills and many maneuvers require skill checks) which can be applied to out of combat stuff.

>> No.40005437

Have any of you folks played a Wayang?

>> No.40005452

Theres a bunch of classes that got skipped, anon.

Brawler, Cavalier, Samurai, Monk, Ninja, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Slayer, Medium, & Bloodrager, and those are just the ones that need a bump up to T3ville.

>> No.40005460

>what is Steelfist Commando
There are plenty of CMB maneuvers spread throughout the various disciplines.

Also some of the Initiator stuff can indeed provide you with more versatility for out-of-combat stuff (flight, teleporting around, healing, skill stuff, etc.)

>> No.40005473

Imagine playing a fighter
Imagine having Pounce as a class feature at level 1.

It's kinda like that. Excep your 'Pounce' comes in all sorts of flavors and does more than just damage. It can heal, crowd control, teleport you, protect you from incoming attacks, make you fly, make TWF/Unarmed not shit...

>> No.40005502

Man, I wish. Neato little dudes. You know they're based on indonesian shadow puppets?

I'm not playing in a Golarion setting (DM converted her Scarred Lands 3.5 game to PF). So pushing for obscure PF races isn't in cards, sadly.

>> No.40005519

It encourages Martials to keep some mental stats and skills high.

The classes also have more in combat utility in combat, they can actually debuff enemies with their strikes. You can also do cool shit like shooting a weapon out of a foes hand or pinthe enemy to wall with an arrow.

>> No.40005522

Hey, /pfg/. I'm playing an undead-focused oracle, and plan on making necrocrafts when I hit the level needed to do so. The material component on animate dead looks annoying, though, and I was wondering whether there was a way to ignore it with False Focus or some other such thing. Currently, my plan is to dip one level of sorcerer at level 7, pick up False Focus and an expensive holy symbol, and start animating skeleton-mechas for my party to ride for free.

Is there some other way to make animate dead cheaper? Maybe an outsider I can enslave to make it cast animate dead for me?

>> No.40005529

How do I steel fisted commando?

Only things that I can't change is the fact I am playing a hobgoblin, and will be level 14.

>> No.40005530

It's not. Sorry, I meant to erase the post number before hitting post; and forgot.

Ah. Still, out of combat utility seems pretty hard to come by for them.

>> No.40005541

I really dislike the Warlords recovery mechanic and I hate playing high charisma characters because I'm a sperglord and I hate the "charming warrior" archetype in general.

>> No.40005542


70% of PoW could be replaced by giving fighters a mental stat of their choice as bonus to random shit and adding double damage or a free combat maneuver with a bonus to CMD on their first attack

>> No.40005560

But that makes me think it would only get up to T4.

At the end of the day, I'm still all about hitting things; and don't have the big toolbox for solving other problems that would make me T3; No?

>> No.40005565

>Not understanding the innate-yet-subtle fundamental connection between PoW maneuvers and the Skill Focus feat
Irori would be disgusted with your lack of internal reflection.

>> No.40005574

or making martial flexibility be the standard across all non casters.

>> No.40005596

That does sound better; but it still sounds more to me like a great T4 than a T3. Maybe my understanding of the tiers is off.

>> No.40005635

About to start my first campaign ever. Friends asked me to DM. Playing PF, decided on running the Giant Slayer campaigns. Any suggestions?

>> No.40005651

Monk and Rogue have been covered. I don't think Advanced Class Guide stuff is in the plans, and Medium isn't even out yet. Cavalier's the only big omission right now. And Gunslinger, too, I guess.

>> No.40005664

Really? Besides the Bushi, the Warlord has hands-down the best recovery (when used solely for the purpose of recovering maneuvers and for doing DPR). Warder's is awesome, but you have reason to use it on its own, and it hurts when you're forced to use it when you don't want to.

Also, there's really nothing saying that you HAVE to play as highly charasmatic with a high Cha score. You can fluff it as being so goddamn sure of yourself that it lets you punch people's guts out, and then just play the quiet and stoic type.

Not really. I FULL ATTACK every round is still boring as shit, but having ways to figure out how to best use your maneuvers and class features together is infinitely more interesting.

Also counters. Fighters ain't got SHIT like counters.

>> No.40005668


Ban wizards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, arcanists, summoners, witches, and shamans

Beyond that, don't listen to /pfg/ for advice

They want to overcomplicate your game and make it less fun

>> No.40005692

Is this guide good? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y6rRKBlTwsglz1KPa7PDh46ItWx5nocvViv95AaJ2MQ/edit?pli=1

Should I use two weapon fighting with 2 greatswords as a titan mauler with prodigious two weapon fighting?

Ot should I just go deadly agility dex route or a more traditional frontline warrior?

>> No.40005695

I know your that troll from last thread, but no not really.
You have enough in-combat utility to bump you up to tier 3 as you can do more than just straight HP damage.

Some disciplines do give you some great out of combat stuff. Black Seraph/Silver Crane grants good flight without using a magic item. Veiled Moon grants teleportation stuff.

>> No.40005732


Except I'm not trolling though

>> No.40005750

Prepare you maps, go over details, be a good actor and try to get inflections right, and make sure your players know their options.

Also, it should be noted that a smart inquisitor and steamroll his way through the adventure. I should know because I played Christian Bale Batman + CSI Miami Half-Orc inquisitor.

Don't expect combat to be too tough, as long as the dice are in the player's favor

>> No.40005755

If all of you are completely new, then you probably won't have an issue.

If your wizard wants to blast, then let him. Casting classes are mostly considerd OP when you optimize their spell list. Otherwise a straight-blast wizard would probably be a tier lower and closer to the gap.

>> No.40005775

So you're just stupid.

>> No.40005794

>Monk and Rogue have been covered
Oh? Got a link?
>I don't think Advanced Class Guide stuff is in the plans.
Shame, I really like the Slayer, though it's a tad lacking in versatility.
>And Gunslinger, too, I guess.
Gunslinger has one at least in a playtest form.

I suspect the link upthread >>40004855 is out of date. Does anyone have a link to a more up to date version?

>> No.40005800

>Implying Aegis is not fun
>implying SoP is difficult to learn

>> No.40005815

Say I want to run a game set in pre-modern Japan where players are hunters of the supernatural

What adventures would you recommend to adapt, and what era of Japanese history should it be? inb4 sengoku inb4 this post ignored

>> No.40005829


>Breeding fetish

Anon stop, you're hitting a button I really enjoy having hit.

>> No.40005840


Or maybe people have opinions that differ from your own. A shock I know, as you're only used to circlejerks and echo chambers

>> No.40005842

> the Warlord has hands-down the best recovery (when used solely for the purpose of recovering maneuvers and for doing DPR
It seems kinda shitty given that you can cripple yourself with a bad roll when you attempt a gambit and most pointbuys aren't generous enough to let you put sufficient points into charisma to actually benefit much from the luck bonus.

>> No.40005854

>What adventures would you recommend to adapt

Carrion Crown is perfect for this.

>> No.40005879

Why not a WoD and PF mix? Homebrew it, mate.

I would stick more to the WoD system because it is more lethal.

>> No.40005882

>circlejerks and echo chambers
Hello white-room anon

>> No.40005884

play other system instead.

>> No.40005889

That link is indeed out of date. Most of the archetypes are here

Then alchemist/investigator and inquisitor/warpriest combo archetypes are here

And the Bard archetype is segregated from the rest for some reason

>> No.40005891

Sengoku Era.

>> No.40005892

>classes that are fun and interesting can be replaced with a boring, unfun addition to a class that was boring enough on its own
Yeah, nah, yer a cunt.

You add your Initiation mod to the Gambit, in addition to everything else. It's super likely to work. Especially since when you're using strikes, you're almost always making attacks at Full BAB, which is generally going to hit at all levels of play.

>> No.40005927


>I can only enjoy a game by adding more and more mechanical complexity until I don't even interact roleplaying with the fictional universe anymore, I just move dials and knobs and levers

>> No.40005956

Don't listen to this guy:>>40005668

I would however, suggest that while you should allow many sources (anything Paizo Published, anything Dreamscarred Press Published, and Spheres of Power); you should limit your players to classes that are within a 3-tier span of eachother, or at least warn the guys at the bottom further than 3 tiers away, that they're likely to feel overshadowed by more effective characters if they choose that class (Can someone post the tier list and a summary of what tiers mean?)

>> No.40005975

>Initiation mod to the Gambit
I know, but it really won't be high enough to actually benefit from it unless you have a ridiculous pointbuy. That might be because I have no issue dumping Cha down to 7 but will refuse to dump Int unless its some sort of RP gimmick.

>> No.40005988

>implying PoW in any way takes away from roleplaying
>Strawmaning this hard
Wow, it is you white-room anon

>> No.40005996

>I actually have to fucking read, this somehow disables me from roleplaying.

>> No.40006004

No, I'm going to keep hitting it, much like my Tiefling keeps hitting her cervix.

>> No.40006028

>wanting to be good at things AND having fun is badwrongfun, stop enjoying things
Even if no one else will, I will continue to talk in /pfg/ about how much I enjoy my PoW classes, just to spite you.

Actually, that's a lie. I'll continue doing it because I'm having a fucking blast with my Warder and my Zealot, and I'm looking forward to giving both a Brutal/Bushi Stalker and Bushi Warlord a try.

14+2 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha is a perfectly passable 20pb Warlord array.

Seriously dude, no. I'm told that shit hurts like fucking crazy. It is nothing like our chinese porn comics.

>> No.40006058

>replying to the shitposter after he's come up with new bait
I hate you all.

>> No.40006075

What does that even have to do with playing other system that fit the theme better?

Are you saying you can't RP in other system??

>> No.40006076

>injecting realism into a fetish
What's wrong with you?

>> No.40006086


At what point did I say I don't want characters to be mechanically capable?

I'd be fine if fighters got +100 to every attack and damage roll and threatened every square within a mile, if it didn't need 500 extra pages of rules baggage and subsystems to do it

>> No.40006119

Yeah, I suppose we should let him stew in his ineptitude. I'll stop now.

Breaking people's insides is bad, mmkay.

I'm with you on the breeding part, though.

>> No.40006126

>tg complaints department.png

>> No.40006148

This is probably all just personally hangups, but I never really feel comfortable having less than like 18 AC on a starting melee character(before taking stuff like Rage/debuffs) into account.

Anything less and it just feels like you're just getting hit 99% of the time. That's probably just my problem though.

Having low Dex also hurts cause you need Two Weapon Fighting or else why even bother with unarmed combat?

>> No.40006157


Hitting the cervix is usually a sign that she's not properly aroused, or she's not at peak fertility (in which case why are you even pounding her in that hole.)

If you're hitting her cervix even when she's aroused and at peak fertility, well, she's gonna be walking funny for the next couple days and might want to have sex less.

Sure, she might be into that - it's painful, but in many cases not unbearable - since many people (men and women) like mixing pain with their pleasure.

If you want something hardcore, go for width, not length.

>> No.40006171


>but everyone plays fucking D&D.image format

>> No.40006189

So you are saying people should like amputee porn?

>> No.40006204


Amputees? No.

Dwarves and Halflings.

>> No.40006224

Dude, what? You have access to Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade. If you're ever actually making a TWF full attack, you fucked up.

And I can understand wanting more AC, but you really don't need it. Warlords do so much fucking damage at low levels that it doesn't even matter if shit hits you. They'll be dead before they can really hurt you.

>> No.40006231

No shit it hurts like crazy in real life, but when we start talking about futa tieflings and azata waifus who might not even possess the equipment for reproduction and them being able to breed, real life steps out of the room... Don't tell me you're one of those "Pathfinder realism" types, Anon.

I kid, of course, but that's not the point.

>> No.40006246

Also dungeon world is a thing and probably better suited for someone like you.

Any-hoodle, your bait has gotten stale now, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

>> No.40006284


Anon please stop, you're making me think about the reproductive habits of uncommon/rare races and it's taking my mind to dark places.

>> No.40006296

Some of us (not that guy) actually LIKE playing D&D.

>> No.40006333


But seriously, I am just too gentle for my own good. In my vidya and TTRPGs, I'm cool with bludgeoning shit (likely to death) but with people I'd ostensibly be in a relationship with HAHA I'M SAD NOW it's not my deal at all.

Different strokes for different folks though, I guess.

>anon's face when

>> No.40006339


Dungeon world is fine in concept but terrible in execution because its rules don't present an internally consistent world

Every fucking thing has the same DC, which means what's the point of having a leveling up mechanic?

>> No.40006363

>Sure, she might be into that - it's painful, but in many cases not unbearable - since many people (men and women) like mixing pain with their pleasure.

Which iconics do you think are into that.

I'm betting Amiri and Lini, the former because Barbarian and latter because it's just something she's used to at this point, what with being a small gnome.

>> No.40006368

Not same guy but...why not go TWF with dervish defender/dragon fury or something similar? Good AC, Good damage and sweet late game. Also why TWF full attacks are a bad thing? Their damage is pretty swell.

>> No.40006389

because you can't move and full attack in the same turn

>> No.40006397


>tfw no Dryad waifu
>tfw you don't build a quaint cottage next to her Bonded Tree
>tfw you don't get to experience her changing shapes, and personalities, as the seasons change.

>> No.40006420

Bakatora pls

I bet the qt3.14 psychic iconic is into that stuff. Transcending the boundaries of her body and such.

It's mostly that TWFing is boring (yay let me roll 8 dice to see which of these attacks hit, when ~4 of them are pretty much guaranteed to miss), that maneuvers are way more fun and interesting, and >>40006389

Truly, we live in an awful world.

>> No.40006424

Well then they shouldn't mind having to actually read through the rule books to get new, balanced, and interesting material. I know that's why I enjoy D&D. I just love pouring over page after page of info, coming up with character idea after character idea and amusing myself with the possibilities of new and exciting heroes, villians, and in between and the type of history they had that led them this this point.

That is why I told him to do something else, because D&D is about pouring over page after page of options to create some unique amalgamate character to throw into the world of high fantasy adventure

Which is why I can't wait for Akashic magic to be finished. I absolutely adored Incarnum and still have its rulebook

>> No.40006435


I wonder how long you could play a blonde human female techslinger with the Tengu racial heritage before people pick up who you're based on.

>> No.40006442

Probably best to have at least one person in the game well versed in the rules, to be able to explain things as they come up.
If your game is going to be heavy combat, have your players calculate the modifiers for attack roles before hand, those aren't very likely to change between attacks bar very simple situational stuff (+2 for charging, +2 for flanking, -2 for two weapon fighting, ect). Same with damage, have all that stuff sorted so you don't have to add everything up every turn. Other things that would be nice to know your modifier for are initiative, perception and AC.
Have a firm grasp of the rules before you start if you are the DM, but at the same time don't bother with niche rules until they come up.
Use this site, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home has everything you might need.
Take advantage of every resource you have, there are stats for every creature you could imagine, no need to homebrew it yourself.

>> No.40006448


I'd hazard a guess at one sentence

>> No.40006449

ah, neat

my main problem here is to find some sort of reference picture for my character

since i'm really interested in playing one.

>> No.40006460

So? If you are full attacking it is because whatver you are fighting is standing still or fighting something else. Although even then you could probably prefer to do a maneuver or something. I am just saying full round attacks with TWF do have their use.

Yes, maneuvers are usually cooler.

>> No.40006471

I don't get this reference, and I wish I did.

>> No.40006484

Think harder.

>> No.40006497


Three words that might unclog your memory.

Downy feather pubes.

>> No.40006518

Probably the moment she either curls into a ball, starts falling into her bird seed addiction, or someone sees her feather pubes

>> No.40006524

Well, I don't REALLY want to drag things into a conversation about kinks, but I'm likewise a gentle person and I'm not at all into the thought of cervical pressing/penetration in real life. Pain, for me or my partner, is a pretty big turn-off in my book. But within Fantasypornland, realism doesn't have to apply and cervical penetration ends up being the end result I arrive at when bringing together certain other unrealistic kinks. I only enjoy it in muh hentais when it's portrayed as something very pleasurable, even though I'm well-aware that in real life it would be the opposite. It's sort of a... smutty suspension of disbelief. In any case, back to the subject of Pathfinder. Uh...

>> No.40006545

>Then they shouldn't mind having to actually read through the rule books to get new, balanced, and interesting material. I know that's why I enjoy D&D. I just love pouring over page after page of info, coming up with character idea after character idea and amusing myself with the possibilities of new and exciting heroes, villians, and in between and the type of history they had that led them this this point.
Fair enough. The wealth of content & concept coverage is one of the main draws of the system.

>D&D is about pouring over page after page of options to create some unique amalgamate character to throw into the world of high fantasy adventure
I agree with you, but I know a few people who just want to see group after group of AD&D1e style parties, with a heavy leaning toward fighter mage thief cleric.

>Which is why I can't wait for Akashic magic to be finished. I absolutely adored Incarnum and still have its rulebook
I never picked that one up. But once DSP puts out a PF version, I will at least give it a look-through.

>> No.40006565

Pallerina from Pillars of Eternity? Wasn´t she a Paladin?

>> No.40006569


Where did the feather pubes thing even come from? I assume it's just a joke about how she was raised by birds, but I've seen it insisted upon enough times by people to make me really wonder if there was some insinuation in official media about her having them.

>> No.40006574

Picture related. I am not a bright man.

Fair enough. I'll let it go.

>> No.40006580


>start playing game
>want to play a character
>pick a class, good to go!
>no wait maybe that class isn't good
>is this even a valid character concept under the system
>maybe I should use this class and archetype
>oh and I'll need that feat
>oh but I can't take it because I need to be this race
>okay so I'll take that feat and this class in this archetype and grab that magic item at this level that lets my character be valid
>wait no that sounds fun but its actually pretty suboptimal
>lets start over
>lets pick a class that works and then make a character around it
>x20 times until finally make a character
>Wind up with absolutely nothing remotely similar to the original idea I was eager to play

Why is the game even class based? It's all of the weakness of a point buy system like GURPS with none of the strengths

>> No.40006606


Samus Aran from the Super Smash Brothers series.

>> No.40006614

Its because those birds infused her with their DNA while she was a little girl, so the pubes thing started as a joke about her going through bird puberty as a result.

Also because there's art of it.

>> No.40006654

...Sure, why not. She's probably an Aegis/Soulbolt/Metaforge, this is totally /pfg/ related.

>> No.40006663

>Super Smash Brothers
If this is not a joke, I will throttle you all the way to Zebes and back

>> No.40006673


Samus Aran *was* from Metroid, but sense that's a dead franchise I consider her from SSB now.

>> No.40006674

I think we already determined in a previous general that Lini is kinky as fuck, probably loves anal, and possibly hopefully goes commando under the outfit. I also like to think that gnomes and halflings have bodies that are a little bit elastic, enough so that they can handle the medium-sized races without great difficulty or discomfort. Someone pulled out a blurb of lore about gnomes which basically said that most gnomes are down to fuck with folks of other races. I don't know where it's from, but I'd hazard a guess and say Gnomes of Golarion.

>> No.40006685


Metroid died when they went 3D

>> No.40006720

>that's a dead franchise
Why did Other M have to happen? Why couldn't we just get more Prime or Prime derivitives? Or perhaps mixing both Prime and Metroidvania into a brand new genre.

What are you talking about? The Prime series was fantastic

>> No.40006721

What useful things are there to pick up with Racial Heritage Tengu, anyway?

>> No.40006744

Sword training. Use All the Swords.

>> No.40006759

>Someone pulled out a blurb of lore about gnomes which basically said that most gnomes are down to fuck with folks of other races. I don't know where it's from, but I'd hazard a guess and say Gnomes of Golarion.

That's not a blurb, but rather an implication that Gnomes are very curious and always seeking new, exciting experiences, which inevitably leads to them to banging a couple (dozen) men and women.

That being said, Gnomes are pretty cute with this bit:
>Indeed, gnomes often confound their allies by treating everyone who is not a gnome as part of a single, vast non-gnome collective race.

Gnomes of Golarion might be a poor thing to follow since Elves of Golarion has been retconned in more than a few places, and Gnomes probably got the same fate.

>> No.40006769

I guess you can get Tengu wing.

>> No.40006772

Hey, sounds /pfg/-related to me. That picture looks like some kind of Agathion warrior to me. Probably a CR in the 8-13 range.

>> No.40006788


They can take a feat to fly, I guess

There's also some weird shit like a human taking the long-nose form feat to turn into a human with a nose as long as their nose

>> No.40006790

Truly, he is the most Andoran thing in history.

>> No.40006796

That's not how racial heritage work. You can't get racial trait. You can get race trait though.

>> No.40006805


Don't forget Linguist, which gives you two languages for every point you put into Linguistics, rather than one.

Plus Sneaky and a compulsion for hoarding shiny baubles.

>> No.40006826


I've got bad news son, racial heritage doesn't get you any of that shit

>> No.40006830


Their national patron is literally a divine, humanoid eagle.

>> No.40006836

Again. That's not how racial heritage work.

>> No.40006856

I have a raging, burning hatred for gnomes in most settings, but the thing with the bleaching, the first world, and the whole level 20 baker thing won me over for golarignomes.
>Need ancient, legendary oven to make better kaiser rolls, too bad it's under a red dragon
>Need behemoth meat for sammiches
>Need obscure and arcane plant ingredients from a Tane for the coleslaw
>Need to convince a master cook in the City of Brass to pass down his teachings to you for the best barbecued meat
>Do all the things
>tfw people fear and respect you for murdering shit across the planes and not for your godlike sammiches

>> No.40006857

Ahaha that's fucking amazing. Andoran confirmed for best country.

>> No.40006873

Technically you are qualify to get those traits. But there is no way for you to get racial traits (not to be confused with race traits), so you can't actually get it.

>> No.40006885

Time to delve into my PDF files...

>Gnomes draw people of all races to them with their charm and attention. Though many who spend time with gnomes gripe about their companions’ incessant curiosity and restless energy, it’s these same traits and other distinctly gnome characteristics that make them so attractive as companions and lovers. The focus and obsessive curiosity of the fey folk is impressive enough when turned upon a field of study, but when turned upon a romantic target, the allure of such attention can be unbelievably powerful, even for those of other races. (Despite an inability to crossbreed with other races, gnomes’ constant hunt for new sensations means they rarely restrict their liaisons to their own kind.)

So yeah, we're pretty much both right.

Also god damn, I never noticed before but the cover art on Gnomes of Golarion is horrible.

>> No.40006905


All art of gnomes in Pathfinder is horrible

Elves too, for the most part, look more like ettercaps than anything else

>> No.40006908


The best part is one of the biggest threats Andoran faces at the moment are corporations growing more powerful than the government and threatening Common Rule.

>> No.40006941


Poor Shalelu, one second she's a green-haired waif and the other she's got blonde-hair and large, heaving breasts.

>> No.40006949

God fucking damnit. When do we get to be Andoran Freedom Fighters who bring down the Thrunes already?!


>> No.40006965


>not state-subsidized/supported corporate monopolies and draconian laws edging out small business

>> No.40006992

what about kawaii Lini with a cute dog that was posted a few thread ago?

>> No.40007005

please respond

>> No.40007026

Tengu Wings and Raven form might be useful, and Long-Nose form might be fun for scent.

Shigenjo is also a decent Oracle archetype

>> No.40007036

Are you undead or healed by negative energy?
Fucking excellent
Otherwise it's still pretty good.

>> No.40007039


PoWfags only want to defend it against legitimate criticism, not actually provide you with help with using it

>> No.40007044

I actually like the creepy eyes and anime elf ears.
I'll agree it's hit and miss on quality, though.

>> No.40007051

Citation needed

>> No.40007079

Notable improvements have been made between Gnomes of Golarion and Pathfinder Unchained. Also based on the magic-looking sparkles, I assume that dog is actually Lini's snow leopard animal companion, having been subjected to some sort of polymorphing effect. This assumed context makes Lini's reaction cuter and funnier, in my opinion.

>> No.40007089

Hahaah what?

>> No.40007102



>> No.40007139

Why the hell do you buttboys always talk about third party instead of actual accepted content? The most recent book to come out had an alchemist class called Construct Rider and it sounds cool as fuck.
Anyone get a copy of Cohorts and Companions yet?

>> No.40007165


I think they're secretly DSP employees, just like muh wizards whiteroom theorycrafter is secretly a Paizo shill

>> No.40007186

Bloody hell Canucks exist in Golarion too?

>> No.40007194

Didn't even knew that book came out.

>> No.40007197

Because outside of a few exceptions (like the fun-sounding archetype you mentioned) most of Paizo's stuff is shit. Like, the vast majority of it.

>actual accepted content
>he doesn't play with DSP and assorted other good 3pp stuff

>> No.40007220

>Elves of Golarion has been retconned in more than a few places
It has?

I've been using EoG as my main source on Golarion Elves.

What got retconned?

>> No.40007234


g8 viral m8

>> No.40007246

After they went to 3D games beyond Metroid Prime you mean.

>> No.40007255

gr8 b8 m8

>> No.40007267


gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8

>> No.40007300

>What got retconned?

Elves are no longer immortal.

>> No.40007359

My playgroup uses DSP stuff all the time, we found psionics anywhere from broken to boring and so far PoW is fun but using any of the combat feats can invalidate a lot of existing content. It fees very foreign to the existing pathfinder universe.

I do love me some weeabo fight magic though.

>> No.40007390

What is that beautiful beard weapon and how do I use it in Pathfinder...

>> No.40007400

I find it silly when people complain that Psionics don't mess right with the Golarion setting or with fantasy games in general. I guess these people aren't aware that psionics are canonically a thing in golarion already, and not to mention have been a thing in D&D for a long-ass time.

>> No.40007426

White-haired witch multiclassed with the full-BAB martial class of your choice? Can't promise you'll be that good, but it'll get you to your character concept.

>> No.40007436

What exactly was it about Psionics that you thought was broken? Because they're pretty straight-up less powerful than normal spellcasting. I personally don't have any compunctions about psionics vs. vancian magic, fluffwise; they both are just ways to access the magic that is all over the fucking place in Golarion.

And by combat feats, which do you mean? I can't really imagine most of the feats in PoW really invalidating anything (except maybe Combat Expertise, and Dervish Dance/Fencing Grace/Slashing Grace, but that's a GOOD RIDDANCE kind of deal).

Refluffed barbazu (sp?) beard?

>> No.40007470

>third party instead of actual accepted content?
>actual accepted content?
What, Paizo only?

I play with any content that is good. Paizo, DSP, WotC, whatever. Bot has a player, and as a GM. I've also homebrewed some stuff for players in my group, and gotten other GMs to approve me playing something I homebrewed myself.

I pull shit out of MIC for treasure all the time. I allow Spell Compendium, too; and actually, I've been meaning to give it a comb-through and add spells to Paizo Caster lists for my next campaign.

I often use options & material from my 3.x Forgotten Realms Books, and occasionally stuff from D&D 3.x Dragon Magazine Issues.

I've used setting and adventure stuff from 2e. Storm Wrack, Cityscape, Frostburn, and Dungeonscape have seen frequent use in my games; as have my 2e, 3e, and 3.5e Planar hardcovers. Fiendish Codex is Great, too.

Draconomicon and Lords of Madness are fantastic.

Heroes of Horror and Heroes of Battle have their places in the right kind of campaign.

I use Green Ronin Pathfinde Advanced Bestiary all the time, and I can't imagine any reason I would ever want to not have it at my disposal as a GM.

Why the hell are you going out of your way to avoid allowing good stuff?

>> No.40007478

Dwarf witch/barbarian?
What is a barbazu?

>> No.40007482

It's sound cool but it's not that good. Also Monstrous Companion feat suck balls. Your companion function at your druid level -3.

So only people who want it (those without access to full companion list like Paladin,Ranger) will have them at character level -7.

Not to mentioned that Companion are already weak sauce at higher level..

>> No.40007491

Wow. That's a big retcon.

Wait; doesn't that fuck up a bunch of shit in the backstories of the earlier APs?

Anything else they monkeyed with?

>> No.40007495

I've been told that the PoW Maneuvers are OP. Is that true?

>> No.40007507

Bearded devils.

>> No.40007510

Do you think the Fighter is the pinnacle of balance?
If so, they're OP

>> No.40007529


It's a slashing weapon that hangs off your face and looks like a devil's beard. But it provokes AoOs. Probably fantastic for a CaGM Barbarian, though.

Compared to fighters, monks, and rogues, yep. Compared to any class that isn't a steaming mess of awful class design and legacy sacred cow tending, nope.

>> No.40007535


They're not OP, they're just unnecessary surgery when a pill would suffice

>> No.40007548

Compared to the weakest classes in the game?

Absolutely, PoW classes are OP.

Compared to the best classes in the game? They're Arguably UP.

They're right in the middle, overall.

>> No.40007557


Actually scratch that, my analogy is wrong because surgery is desperately needed, it's just the wrong kind

>> No.40007576

So how can I convince my GM to allow PoW?

>> No.40007577

What "Pill" would make all of the weak one-trick pony classes of T4/5 suddenly become reasonable T3s?

>> No.40007593

Bigger numbers and tougher bodies.

>> No.40007601

Teach him what Tiers are; and if he still won't allow PoW, just make crazy awesome Druids and Clerics all day every day.

Fixes absolutely nothing; they'e still garbage one-trick ponies.

>> No.40007615

Here's the Tier list I've got, it's a bit out of date, and doesn't include the newest stuff.

>> No.40007622

"Hey boss, can we look into using Path of War? The classes are fun, and though they're a lot stronger than the fighter or whatever, they're not gamebreaking or anything. They're built to be around the Inquisitor and Magus level of power."

If that doesn't work, DM a one-shot where you allow it or something, show folks that it's not ridiculous.

Confirmed for not having a fucking clue why those classes are in those tiers.

>> No.40007650

How is warder T3 and not T2?

>> No.40007668

How the hell is Warder T2? Even the mighty Harbinger is but T3.

>> No.40007671


Let's make a class, let's call it Lightning Warrior

It has no class abilities except it instantly kills something as a standard action and is immune/invulnerable to everything

What tier is it?

>> No.40007691

So...it gives fighters magical answers to their problems while calling them martial maneuvers.

Yeah, why not just give them 4th level casting ability like the other 3 useful martial classes and call them exploits or something. Same exact effect.

>> No.40007715

I tried the former already of course, but all I got were cherry-picked maneuvers and claiming that all they're good at is fighting and have no use out of combat.

I hadn't considered trying the latter, I may do that.

>> No.40007724

T5 at best, considering it can only kill one specific thing and is otherwise a brick.

>> No.40007741

Any answers for this?

>> No.40007744

You'd need to give them 6th level casting, not 4th. 4th level casting a shit.

But sure. I dont care if it's fancy sword swings, magic spells, or brain powers; you need a good variety of different level-appropriate abilities to get up to T3, and to be able to contribute in the circumstances where HP damage isn't the answer, or where your kind of HP damage isn't very good.

>> No.40007764

Because no PoW class has the capability to simply wreck games, because they still rely 90% on hitting shit hard as their primary method of problem solving.

T2 is "can solve pretty much any problem, but doesn't always have the right answer to every problem."

T3 is "can do lots of things effectively and/or is fantastic at its niche".

Warder is clearly low-mid T3 at the absolute worst. Not that that is a problem, because as long as you're in T3, you're good to go.

T4-5. Problems that cannot be solved with murderhoboing cannot be solved by stabbing them, and your proposed class doesn't do anything else.

>cherry-picking maneuvers
What, are they picking like level 7 maneuvers and going THIS IS OP
Well, yeah, it's something you only get access to at level 13 or so, of course it's going to be good. You only get a handful of them, anyway.

>> No.40007775

Blood Money. You'll want to look up the guide to getting off-list spells in Giant in the Playground.

>> No.40007791


>Instantly kills anything
>Immune to everything

/pfg/ really is mostly trolls

>> No.40007809

Because the warder and the harbinger, when built for that purpose, can pretty much shit on any campaign. They can be, if intended, as disruptive as any T2.

Sure, they are slightly less flexible, but when multiclassed with some prestige classes (a decent martial or a dip in a spellcasting class), can break the game if they wish to.

>> No.40007811

You said 'something' before. Fuck off, troll.

>> No.40007849

>that purpose
What purpose? WHAT? The "I'm really good at killing people" one? Or the "High built-in mobility" one? Because those are the Harbinger's main things.

>> No.40007854


Your retarded 1hko class example comes up against a problem:

It's a magical death-trap, something similar to a sphere of annihilation. It's going after your friends.

You're safe, apparently. good for you.

How do your save your friends?

Another scenario: You're stuck in a 10x10 room, there's no door, but there are some small airholes. How do you get out?

etc etc etc.

Tiers are not a measure of raw power. They're a measure of how often and how useful your talents are to the party.

>> No.40007857

>recommending Blood Money
Please kill yourself. That aside, I have to actually convince a GM to do it.

>> No.40007861


>being this autistically pedantic

>> No.40007873

>being this BTFO
Go back to trolling about whiteroom theorycrafters.

>> No.40007886

It's not the Warder that is doing that, though. It's the spellcasting that would allow it to push into T2. The tier list doesn't take into account silly multiclassing (and I can almost assure you that there is no PrC that really can push Initiators into T2) or the possible kind of builds you can hamfist together.

It's just each class' versatility and power, when taken by itself.

Furthermore, let's see this situation where a Warder or a Harbinger (post-nerf) is wrecking campaigns with the tools they're provided with. I imagine most of your answers will be "well he uses his Wizard spells to X" because neither class is really capable of game-ruining fuckery on their own.

>> No.40007888

You asked how you bypass an expensive material component. That's the easiest way to do it, and it works. I'm not seeing the problem.

Don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answers.

>> No.40007904


that's not me and I wasn't btfoed by your >muh something isn't anything

>> No.40007954

Mobility, killing, protecting, infiltrating and depending on discipline chosen, even meddling with outsider shit. But maybe that is a bit of a stretch. Maybe I am thinking of multiclassing characters.

Fair point, but a decent martial class/versatile spellcasting class multiclass is much harder to fuck with (without resorting to blatant falling rocks) than a straight wizard for example.

>> No.40007955

>Tiers are not a measure of raw power. They're a measure of how often and how useful your talents are to the party.
If all you can do is kill stuff really well, you are less useful than the guy who kills stuff decently AND does a dozen other highly useful things. And in the case of most martials, they can only kill stuff through HP damage, making them even more limited.

>> No.40007969

Even pre-nerf Harbinger wasn't exactly wrecking campaigns on its own. The major nerf to Harbinger is that it's pretty much locked into needing Shattered Mirror on top of Cursed Razor being tailor-made for it. Nothing wrong with that per-se since they're supposed to be the Harbinger's signature disciplines. It's just how it is.

>> No.40007976


>wizards aren't powerful because they can cast A spell not EVERY spell

>> No.40007989

well yeah, spellslingers aren't that bad

>> No.40008009

His argument was that you could kill 'something'. As in, once that pre-determined something was dead, you literally had no abilities.

It was a pedantic reading of your text.

That said; even taken the way you meant it; see >>40007854

>> No.40008027

And the multiclass dude is less capable of wrecking the game because of his lower-level spell access. So he's probably on just barely T2, if that.

This is true, but it was a damn sight stronger before they cut back on how ridiculously SAD it was.

Honestly, I am not entirely sold that it really needs to rely on Shattered Mirror for the save counters, because it's still mostly SAD and has good Fort and Will saves. That's pretty much as good as it gets, unless you only ever play Oracles with Divine Protection.

>> No.40008045

Why not fix all this tier shit by making everything T3 at different things by adjusting the difficulty checks of everything according to the class or multiclass levels?

>> No.40008074

You are right. Now check this. I think this >>40008045 is unto something.

>> No.40008076


This is the absolute dumbest idea in the thread

Go play Dungeon World

>> No.40008078

A wandering reflex save roams into view....
The harbinger fails because it gave up shattered mirror and thus can't make reality its bitch by being REALLY, REALLY GOOD at arts and crafts.

>> No.40008079

I don't even understand what the fuck you are suggesting, but I can tell it's a terrible plan.

You can't be "T3 at different things" because T3 means you are at least decent at ALL the things.

>> No.40008103

He's suggesting wizards have to roll 18 or higher for everything, while fighters only have to roll a 10 for everything.
So >>40008076
has it right.

>> No.40008104

That was my point. Be decent at everything and be gud at one specific thing. Achieve this by implementing class specific difficulty checks to everything.

>> No.40008108

Oh no, the poor Harbinger took full damage from a reflex save spell. Like that never happens to anyone.

Like, how exactly is this worse for the Harbinger than anyone else?

>> No.40008139

If you are implying >>40008103 then please, stop. You don't even understand the problems that you're trying to fix, because you are attacking something that is very specifically not the problem.

>> No.40008150

Just shut up, warder. We already know each other, we know where this argument is going how it's going to end: You're going to stomp and snort about how the Harbinger is 'edgy' and still too SAD for your tastes because you want everybody to be monks, and I'm going to still be right.

>> No.40008196

I am kinda implying that but with a more detailed set of rules regarding how difficulty checks are modified according to class that should be constructed according to each individual campaign but that should use charts and values offered in a source material as a guide.

I fail too see how that is NOT a solution to the fucking tier gap problem.

>> No.40008224

Because half of the wizard's power is forcing YOU to roll shit instead of rolling their own shit, skill workarounds exist, and that's a fuckton of work to essentially say "The rogue gets +10 to all skills and full BAB because reasons."

>> No.40008233

There's the Ambush Hunter Ranger archetype. It's pretty decent, but my major complaint is that it can only be combined with a couple of other archetypes. I would love it if it could be combo'd with more stuff that could replace Favored Terrain, but that might be me hating that particular feature.

>> No.40008234

Calm your tits, bruv. I don't have any problems with post-nerf Harbinger (though yeah, it's still too edgelord for my tastes, so I'll just not play one) but that doesn't change the fact that it's just as likely to get hit with the weakest type of spells in PF as anybody else, assuming they don't use the specific discipline that is fucking designed to let them avoid them.

Like, what are you even complaining about? I don't bitch when my Ranger gets hit by a Will save spell. It's his weakness, it happens. You are aware that you're occasionally going to fail saves, right?

Because a Fighter needing to meet a DC10 (instead of a DC20) on things HE CAN'T FUCKING DO doesn't solve shit. It doesn't make him better, it just means the Wizard has a slightly tougher time solving the problem by himself.

>> No.40008236


That's not a simple fix, that's something that ignores nearly every subsystem of the game that you rewrite the whole fucking system from the ground up to do

And while I agree that the game needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, don't suggest this is anything other than that

>> No.40008247

It entirely defeats the point of being good at something if you're going to do that.

>The wizard has a spell that boosts their perception, but to balance it, we'll adjust the DC to notice something for them so they actually have the same chance as a fighter

There's no point to getting better then.

>> No.40008249

Bruising Intellect/Clever Wordplay/etc work with maneuvers, right?

>> No.40008265

Yep. The ones that use skill checks, anyway.

>> No.40008271

Rolled 8 + 20 (1d20 + 20)

> You are aware that you're occasionally going to fail saves, right?
I sense a will save.
Time to make an obsidian sidestep and skeedaddle outta here.

>> No.40008307


That's a funny way of spelling charmed life

>> No.40008308

Ok, then adjust accordingly whatever shit is getting rolled when it has been caused by a (insert class here).

Except he could do that shit given the most recent tools as the nearly (or not so nearly) supernatural implcations of disciplines and a associated skill or whatever. Make him have an easier time breaking walls, holding a shitload of weight, being stealthy (in the case of a rogue for example), influencing others, ect, while having the wizard a harder time doing that shit.

I did not suggest it is anything other than that. I said the solution is simple, not pleasant.

Getting better? What? Also good job cherry picking something that is not really a fundamental problem in the great scheme of things.

>> No.40008330


Recommended stats for Swashbuckler

0 point buy:

7 7 7 7 7 18

5 point buy:

7 7 7 7 7 18

10 point buy:

7 7 7 7 7 18

20 point buy:

yep, you guessed it

7 7 7 7 7 18

Guess what? It doesn't matter what the rest of your stats are. You put max points into charisma as a swashbuckler and you only need one ability, charmed life. You pop that ability once every round and just ignore everything. Goblins? No problem. Charmed Life. Swashbuckling duels with a foolish harbinger who thinks he can keep up with your superior saves? No problem. Charmed life. Wizard blasting your party with a fireball? You'll get to keep all of their equipment when they reroll because you're the only one still around thanks to charmed life. Angry goddess of vengeance out for your blood (and probably more wink wink nudge nudge)? Just another typical day for a swashbuckler with charmed life.

There's pretty much nothing charmed life can't solve, it's basically the best ability Paizo has ever printed. Or should I say, Paizo is the best company that charmed life has let itself be printed by?

>> No.40008356

It's not simple at all.

Your solution to a problem in this game is literally "design a completely different game."

>> No.40008376

Honestly, if the whole argument is I SHOULD NEVER FAIL A SAVE EVER AS A HARBINGER than I don't think I even need to argue the point. The fact that some people actually think that should be a thing, without there being an actual drawback, means somebody doesn't really understand what DSP is trying to do.

>> No.40008380

I know I need to avoid rogue for this, but I have a very specific, very stupid request.
Throw Anything lets you deal at least 1d4 with thrown whatever. I need options for non-weapon enchantment damage boosting silliness, and ways to pierce DR with random crap lying around, because I want to play a guy that kills things with thrown pencils/needles/pinecones/fresh fruit/live snakes/pewter figurines/paper airplanes/etc.
I would prefer no cast time to pull this shit off, as well.
Best I've got is vivisectionist alchemist and attempt to get the flaming shuriken + vicious weapon silliness from ninja (DM may need to be coerced into allowing ninja tricks as rogue tricks)

>> No.40008408

Wait, what makes Charmed Life different from a limited use version of a Paladin's Divine Grace?

>> No.40008411

Except that it is still the same game but with another layer added that interacts with virtually everything through dynamic and class dependent difficulty checks. I am not removing anything. Just tweaking a fundamental factor.

>> No.40008425


that's the joke

>> No.40008434

oh no ;_;

>> No.40008436

It's already a thing with scarlet throne, you bozo.

>> No.40008465

He's getting a whole bunch of focus in the upcoming Andoran book isn't he?

>> No.40008548

Ah, so you want to make sweeping changes to core mechanics without addressing the massive and pervasive problems that change will inevitably cause.

Good luck with that.

I'd rather just buff the shitty classes, or disallow them.

>> No.40008553

Psion8/warder2/awakened blade 10.

>> No.40008570

Their construct has mind so it can be charmed.

No CON though, so you can hustle all day.

>> No.40008612

Question: A Dragon Fury that, obviously, uses trashing dragon maneuvers, would benefit more from shattered mirror or veiled moon maneuvers?

Also can someone link me to the shattered mirror maneuvers please?

>> No.40008628

Ok, but buff them how and at doing what? Also would it match the fluff or the action would make sense?

>> No.40008638

Does anyone have better homerules for determining intimidate DC?

A party member has put a decent amount into that skill and while it's a good solution to some problems, it often beats the RAW DC of 10+HD+WIS that hostile NPCs that are clearly stronger than the PC but just don't have wisdom mods, which feels pretty odd.

>> No.40008659


>> No.40008683

>clearly stronger
That's why you're having trouble with it. Maybe when they roll good, the intimidatee doesn't think they're stronger. Or at least, they think that even if they seem stronger right now, the intimidator must be hiding something.

>> No.40008698

According to reviewer, you can only choose horse and other traditional quadruped, so I guess it work like Cavalier's Mount.

>> No.40008699

I didn't notice before now that mage hand can't lift magic items. As a DM that sounds like an odd restriction but it also feels like I'm overlooking an important reason that rule exists.

If mage hand could lift unattended magic items but still had the weight restriction, how would you go about abusing it?

>> No.40008711

Neat? Which one of the two offers more utility? Trashing dragon already gives me shitloads of damage but it kind of lacks utility such as becomiing incorporeal and teleporting. Which one would you recommend?

>> No.40008726

You are reading Ex disciplines, try Su ones. There's only Veiled Moon in the first book I think, but second one is literally fightan magic.

>> No.40008729

Situational bonuses/penalties.
Intimidating an orc warleader in front of his tribe? Unlikely. After mowing through half of them? Much more likely.
Walk into a room and be creepy at the local thief's guild functionary with no buildup? Yeah no. He's got a bunch of dudes with big knobbly sticks for exactly that purpose.
Go "OOGAH BOOGAH BOOGAH" at a trained hellknight? Yeah no.

>> No.40008769

>Would it match the fluff or the action would make sense?
Sure. Though odds are it would alter the fluff.

>Buff them how and at doing what?
Give them a variety of level appropriate options for solving problems for when "I hit it for 24 damage" fixes nothing; so they're at least as versatile as the Magus.

As for how, you have basically two options.
1. Give them magic powers (6th level casting, psionics, or whatever).
2. Give them a wide variety of over the top superhero-esque extraordinary stunts they can do. (maneuvers or equivalent).

But given that the problem is that they can often only do the one thing (hp damage) to fix the problem, you need to give them the ability to do more things. And those things can either be magic, or extraordinary.

>> No.40008777

When is the second one supposed to come out?

>> No.40008787

No idea. You can find all playtest material here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411495-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-IV)
Also I've forgotten about crane and seraph in the first book.

>> No.40008804

>2. Give them a wide variety of over the top superhero-esque extraordinary stunts they can do. (maneuvers or equivalent).
That is the only one I see working without the DC adjustment. And even at certain moments I think the DC adjustment would work better. But I guess that is better left to DM wisdom.

>> No.40008842

Interesting. Okay.


How does one play these effectively?

From what I understand, I don't want to be full attacking, right? I want to combine move, standard, and swift actions to do different things every round, right?

But these maneuvers don't seem to scale with level. Is the idea that I replace the low leveled ones with higher leveled ones as I levelup?

Is there any more to it than that?

>> No.40008881

>Is there any more to it than that?
There's nothing wrong with full attacking when you have a chance, it still outdamages mosts standard action strikes I think.

>> No.40008914

I'd be happy to give them a choice.

You can either take the over the top extraordinary stunts (Path of War is one approach of this), or you can take the magic powers and be some kind of magical warrior (like a Magus or Warlord, or a Psychic Warrior).

Let the player go with the one that fits their concept the best.

>> No.40008917

Except most 9th level maneuvers that are one hit kills.

>> No.40008942

Sure, but then you are no longer playing a fighter or whatever. If they want to be a magic warrior, they can multiclass or be something like an eldritch knight and the like.

>> No.40008955

>racial trait
>race trait
I don't know If I should blame English or Paizo here. I'd go with safe route and blame Paizo I guess.

>> No.40008963


So I assume that the PoW archetypes bring the low-powered martials up to T3 with the fun classes?

If yes: would I be a jerk DM to mandate that all fighters be Myrmidon fighters, etc; and maybe come up with an archetype or two to do the same basic thing for the Slayer and Soulknife and any other T4 that slipped through the cracks?

>> No.40008985

I don't see any reason why the fighter class can't have magical/psionic archetypes, is all I'm saying.

But their lack of versatility is the problem. If you want to fix that, you need to give them the versatility they need.

>> No.40008988

+100 damage on one attack is two-hit kill at best, probably three. One-maneuver kills are full attacks that get +4d6 to all attacks, though to be honest at 17 you should be able to kill shit in one full attack without any maneuvers.

>> No.40009006

New Thread

>> No.40009028

No, partial initiators are high Tier 4, but not Tier 3 themselves. It's the PoW base classes that are Tier 3.

>> No.40009087

>and I can almost assure you that there is no PrC that really can push Initiators into T2
There is initiator+arcane, initiator+divine, initiator+psionic and "gets separate arcane casting" PRCs right in the first book, but they don't really push initiators up, just give casters initiating, because you can enter them with just one level of initiator, and even then you lose three caster levels.

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