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[ERROR] No.38890265 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>At every con I attend, I run the "I kill ‘em, I keep ‘em" game. People bring their Legend of the Five Rings characters to the game, and if a character dies, I keep the character sheet. That way, folks know that they’re playing for keeps. It works well in a samurai game, with the players knowing that they’re always four feet away from death. Final. Permanent. Death.

Why is this allowed?

>> No.38890316

Why wouldn't it be? Assuming the players know what they're getting into, it might be a lot of fun.

>> No.38890333

Wick is a bit of a stupid berk. I mean he has some interesting ideas, but by and large he's full of shit.

The "Kill 'em keep 'em" rule isn't even one of his more offensive suggested practices.

That honor goes to "faking a roll to kill someone who's powergaming."

>> No.38890340

Just make a photocopy of the sheet before hand

>the DM thinking that "he" is killing the characters


>> No.38890342

This. If you willingly do it, it is your own fault. No one forced your hand. Tempted, maybe.

Besides, it add's a real element. Its permanent. Sure, you could just rewrite the character or remake them or something but its not the same. You lost him. He died. Their not coming back.

That said, I feel that way whenever any of my characters die and refuse to reuse characters.

>> No.38890347

I would make a new character for the con.
No way I'm gambling my campaign on a killer DM- not a bad thing, by the way.
But I love games where you struggle for every inch, so long as it isn't gratuitous.
Take a photocopy for the dude, let the guy rack up a folder of characters, he brings it back for inspiration later.

>> No.38890349
File: 127 KB, 528x292, 1426828891245.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Immunity gives a character supernatural immunity to diseases and poisons. It’s a very popular advantage. Of course, Mr. Carter had to do something about that. I had his scientists come up with a disease that would kill off anyone with the “super gene” that meta-humans had. Carter had a cure, of course. The only problem was all those super fellows who bought Immunity were, well, immune to it.

>> No.38890354

He always seems like he has such an adversarialrelationship with his players. It seems like he doesn't see them as friends gathered to have a good time, but enemies who are out to ruin his games and must be stopped at all costs.

>> No.38890355

The circular logic there is boggling.

>> No.38890364

Probably got bullied growing up and became social maladjusted.

>> No.38890367

So wait, this guy is playing to kill his party, but doesn't want them to "power game" (playing competently is more likely his trigger) and kills them arbitarily for it? How is this guy still friends with anybody?

>> No.38890391

The fundamental behind DMing should be this

You are working with the players to tell a story.

Unless you are gygax and you and your group are constantly trying to out asshole each other, the DM vs Player mentality is pretty toxic. I've dmed a lot, haven't been a player very much. But honestly, if you work with a setting and are flexible, some hilarious and entertaining things can happen.

>> No.38890410
File: 10 KB, 480x360, wick.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Let’s pretend for a moment. We’re roleplayers, we can do that. Let’s pretend that God Himself comes down from Heaven with a list of Carters. He tells you, “Pick one, and I’ll remove him from the planet, erase him forever from Existence.” Then, the Lord looks you in the eye and says, “But you have to give something up. Something precious.”

>Would you do it?

>Would you give up your life to make sure that no such person as Jefferson Carter ever existed in our world? How about a limb? How about a loved one? How about your sight or hearing or touch or taste or smell?

>What price is too high to erase evil?

>There’s a few of you out there who are saying, “No price is too high.” (I agree with you, at least, in theory. But I have to be honest; I don’t know if I could give up my wife to get rid of Carter. I don’t know if I have that much courage in my heart.)

>How about... your Aunt May?

>(Was that a low blow? I can’t tell anymore.)

>> No.38890428

Who is this guy and why does he matter?

>> No.38890447

John Wick, ceative mind behind Legend of the 5 Rings and 7th Sea.

>> No.38890449


"what a tragedy. i have to remember what was written on my sheet. "

Anyone thinking they can force any character to have a " Final. Permanent. Death." is seriously underestimating their players, and probably has delusion of grandeur.

>> No.38890457

Game designer, supposedly popular.

He matters because cautionary examples matter.

>But then there are players who feel they need to break other rules. You know, the ones not listed in the book. “The Laws of the Table,” one of my players called them. They boil down to a few simple rules:

>I. Pay Attention

>II. Don’t Invoke Monty Python

>III. Don’t Read at the Table

>IV. If You Must Speak, Whisper or Pass a Note Those kind of rules.

>Players who can’t seem to follow these simple rules of etiquette really chap my hide. And so, in order to deal with breaches of etiquette, I use Kharma Dice.

>I’ve mentioned this one somewhere else, but not everyone is a 7th Sea fan, so I’ll put it here, too (and I’ll be brief). In short, whenever someone breaks a Table Law, put a black die in a bowl in the center of the table. Then, later on in the game, when another player is making a really crucial roll, remove the die from the bowl, turn to the player and say: “YOU FAIL.”

>> No.38890462

No, no.

If he deems someone's character is using something overpowered (read: he can't torment it conventionally) he uses DM fiat to render their choice of character useless or dead.

>> No.38890473

Don't Invoke Monty Python?
>into the trash it goes

>> No.38890478

>That honor goes to "faking a roll to kill someone who's powergaming."

It's not powergaming, it's "abusing character creation rules"!

>Get yourself three sets of identical dice. This is easy if you’re playing a game that requires only one die type like Vampire or (coincidentally enough) Champions . Then, arrange a set of those dice for the perfect roll behind your screen. Save ‘em. Don’t touch ‘em. Finally, when you’ve beaten Bruiser Bob to a bloody pulp, make a roll. Ignore it. Look very sadly at the dice behind your screen - the ones you arranged before the game began. Then, lift the screen and show the players your “roll.”

>> No.38890499

>Just make a photocopy of the sheet before hand
This. And even if you didn't do that, you could always just make the same character again. I don't really understand what it's accomplishing. "Oh, no! Please, sir! Don't take away a piece of paper that I've written some things on! How could I ever hope to replace such a thing? Oh, woe is me!"

>It works well in a samurai game, with the players knowing that they’re always four feet away from death.
Why are they always four feet away from death? Why not 3 and 1/4 feet or 22 feet sometimes?

>> No.38890506

Ol' Johhny's method against all these rules lawyers who dare challenge his authority: make them remember their character sheet by heart.

>There’s that fellow who’s always telling you: “You’re doing that wrong.” Or, “That’s not how that works.” Or, “Let me look that up.” This guy is The Enemy. Instead of relying on your judgement to make a snap decision, he wants to play things By The Book. Instead of accepting that you’re improvising things, juggling story, character, narrative and a rulebook, he’s insisting on everything going by What the Author Intended. And if he does it enough, players start looking to him for rulings rather than you. This kind of challenge to our authority is unhealthy. Therefore, you have to do something drastic. Something dramatic. Something dirty.

>First, take away his character sheet. Then, tell him if he doesn’t remember how many dice to roll, or if he rolls the wrong number of dice, or if he forgets something on his character sheet...


>> No.38890507

This is like a how-to guide on how to either lose all your friends or only play with masochists.

>> No.38890508

Those fucking "rules". Hahah wow, textbook power trip.

>> No.38890512

Four feet is Wick's idea of the length of a katana. He may or may not be right, but I'm on the bus and can't be assed to look it up.

>> No.38890525

I'm impressed that such an epic douche bag exists, let alone created more than one setting.

>> No.38890526

>I’ll use the Storyteller System as an example. Whenever Bob starts his rules ranting, take away his 10-siders and give him 4-siders.

>“Here, Bob. You make all your rolls with these.” There is nothing in the rules that says you can’t do this. Therefore, you can.

What a clever ruse!

>> No.38890529

>If You Must Speak, Whisper or Pass a Note Those kind of rules.
What the fuck. The others I can kind of see, and the penalty is fucking insane and over the top, but you have to whisper everything you say? Fucking why.

>> No.38890532


Why not just ban those options if he's butt-blasted about them instead of being a passive-aggressive prick ?

>> No.38890535

He sounds like a jerk.
A jerk who happens to design games, even if they are good games, is still a jerk.
There are better ways to play than enforcing your 'iron rule' upon the players.
0/10 would not play with.

>> No.38890540


"Man, thanks! Don't worry, I'm just going to add a zero to the roll I make, so my minimum roll is now a 10! After all, there's nothing in the rules that says I can't do that!"

>> No.38890541


"Dear Mr. Wick: being immune to disease means being immune to disease. If a character with super-genes is immune to disease, they cannot be affected by a disease targeting their super-genes.


Anyone with any level of reading comprehension "

I think the guy is a bit stuck on the level of kids who go " my attack is stronger" "no, mine is!" in the playground

>> No.38890556

In the very first game I ran, I had a set of commandments. They were things like "don't take ages in the toilet", "don't dust cheetos all over the place" and "ringing cell phones will be dispatched via sledgehammer". We all had a good laugh and of course I never invoked them but reading this STILL makes me feel like a douche.

>> No.38890565

Our group has lost many hours of gaming time to this, so when we started playing 7th Sea we agreed that that rule was actually a pretty good one.

>> No.38890576

How dare players be disruptive when the storyteller is narrating! Interrupting the epic tale being spun from finest silk before their very eyes, simply barbaric!

>> No.38890583
File: 2.00 MB, 2592x1936, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>Punishing characters for outside-of-the-game actions


whoah. I found a worse GM than the guy who described NPCs being raped by a giant-fly-oni thing

>> No.38890584

Its funny, i hate the other rules but I may have to try implementing that one. My players can get kind of loud.

>> No.38890591

>ringing cell phones will be dispatched via sledgehammer

>If I don't like you I'll destroy your personal property haha! ;) j/k guys

Wick, is that you?

>> No.38890595

What follows is an imagined transcript from John Wick's dream session.

>So, your next combat should sound like this:

>Player: I roll to hit. Succeed. Roll to damage. Ten hit points.

>Game Master: The villain grabs your sword arm (dice roll). He succeeds. You can’t use your sword next round because your sword arm is tangled up.

>Player: Uh. Okay. Roll for initiative?

>Game Master: Sure. But you subtract two from your roll because you’re surprised. (Dice roll.) You lose?

>Player: Uh, yeah. Game Master: All right. He twists your arm. He rolls Strength. You roll Stamina. He gets a +5 because he’s got an arm bar on you.

>Player: Uh, okay. (Dice roll.)

>Game Master: All right. The villain won. He takes you down to the ground. Now, he’s on top of you. You’re face down on the ground. He’s got your arm behind you, and your shoulder’s making strange sounds. He grabs hold of your hair and pulls your head up just before it comes slamming down into the castle’s stone floor.

>> No.38890602

Two and a half feet is a quite long katana blade. Add your arms and I guess the range is near enough four feet.

>> No.38890604

But what if the guy with the katana is standing 10 feet away from you? I mean, you're a really shitty fighter if you're letting him stand 4' away from you the entire time. Surely there are some times when death isn't even in the same room as you are.

>> No.38890605
File: 995 KB, 500x281, 1425944509591.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.38890607

What a cunt.

>> No.38890609

>Raped by a giant-fly-oni thing
>Bad GM

>> No.38890612

>If I don't like you
The issue is with the phones ringing, not that the GM doesn't like them, you daft motherfucker.

> j/k guys
...yes, j/k, you nitwit.

>> No.38890619

Regardless of context, it's dogfuckingly terrible GMing.

With an Ironic name, if the practice ever gets caught in game.

>> No.38890633
File: 93 KB, 400x336, Oddball.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Why not just, like, talk to people?

I mean seriously, why not just say to your players "I find that people taking X Class or Y Skill tends to unbalance the game, so I'd prefer it if you could avoid that" and then have a sensible discussion like adults?

>> No.38890650

Apparently, the only way to GM in this guy's mind is to be a passive aggressive, deceitful fuckstick.

>> No.38890655


>It's so unhealthy I will take his sheet and then tell him he fails! That'll teach him!

Is Wick an angsty teen?

>> No.38890659

Four feet is the blade length of a fucking Zwiehander. Dude can get fucked the retard

>> No.38890660

>whenever someone breaks a Table Law... later on in the game, when another player is making a really crucial roll... turn to the player and say: “YOU FAIL.”
So let me get this straight. Somebody does something outside of the game, so you punish a different player's character inside the game? I'm a "divine right GMing" sort of guy and even I think this is total bullshit. It's like in elementary school when somebody I hardly even knew did something bad and the entire class had to miss recess because of it. If I were in one of Wick's games and somebody broke one of his rules, I'd like to imagine punching Wick in the dick before turning to the guy who broke the rule and saying "let that be a lesson to you." Seriously, what the fuck?

>> No.38890665

These tactics are last resort measures, meant for those too stubborn to either accomodate others or leave the group.

>> No.38890683 [DELETED] 

John Wick on how the distinction between player and character knowledge is necessary only to keep munchkins in line.

Let’s get rid of one assumption right quick. This whole “Player vs. Character Knowledge” hoo-la has got to go. The reason we use this rule is because naughty players use it to their own advantage at the expense of everyone else.

“I open the door from the left side, carefully avoiding the poison dart trap, stepping on only every third tile, putting 60% of my weight on my left foot while singing The Yellow Rose of Texas... what’s that? No, I haven’t read the adventure.”

Yeah. That guy.

The fact is, a player sharing knowledge with his character can aid the group and make the whole roleplaying experience a lot more fun.

>> No.38890685

See >>38890602. Though I'm not disputing the retard part.

>> No.38890690

Let's just accept 'four feet from death' as the Wickerman's attempt at a poetic image, since one of the words for 'four' in Japanese also means 'death'.

>> No.38890714

it takes no skill or creativity at all to be a power tripping GM who seeks to fight the players. you have all the tools. you can do whatever the fuck you want and there's really nothing stopping you.

to then fellate yourself and describe how you're smirking when ruining everyone's evening is just the peak of shitty GM that you'll ever find.

A GM should cheat though, when it makes the game BETTER.

No wonder he thinks he's better off unmarried, any relationship with this guy is likely a social hell.

>> No.38890750

OK, I didn't know who Jefferson Carter was, so I looked in the book. For those unaware, he's a NPC millionaire Wick puts in as many campaigns as he can. What does Carter do?

>Carter is a mastermind, a genius beyond mortal measurement. Ever since his childhood, he has played “human chess” with his teachers
and playmates. His acquired fortune came about from his ability to manipulate the minds and lives of mortals, and now he has learned to
manipulate the minds and lives of meta-mortals.
In short, he is causing pain, misery and conflict for his own enjoyment.

>And, don’t forget, he’s doing it for his employees. After all, he provided for the Vigilante Act. He provided United Superheroes. He equips and trains the supervillains they encounter. Carter is the reason they are living the life they are. And if his tricks and traps take out one or two heroes here and there … oh well. What is life without a little risk, eh?

The whole character is just so he can fuck with his players whenever he wants and pull "Just as Planned" out of his ass.

>> No.38890752

>Then, later on in the game, when another player is making a really crucial roll, remove the die from the bowl, turn to the player and say: “YOU FAIL.”
I'm sorry, but this is one of the rare instances when I would actually reject the GM's ruling.

"You fail."
"No... I don't."
"No, you don't understand. When Mark wasn't paying attention, I put a die in the bowl and I pulled it out on your roll, so you fail."
"What do you mean: no?"
"I mean: fuck you, that doesn't happen."

I'm sure that would quickly be followed by him kicking me out of the game, but I'd be as disruptive as possible in the interim.

>> No.38890773

So you're always four feet away from four? While that's true, it's not particularly intimidating.

>> No.38890774

What a fucking jackass. Since when is "playing by the book" a bad thing? Nobody likes a rules lawyer but ignoring the rules to stick it to them is not how you deal with it.

I've got no problems with killer GMs but their games are only fun if they're following the same rules you are.

>> No.38890775

Sounds like he's just inserting himself into the game.

>> No.38890793


Actually I agree with this. If a player wants to just suppose shit like when they hit or when they deal damage then why can't the DM?

Obviously it's an extreme example but I get it.

I really think its a shit book but its always funny to me what /tg/ latches on to since most of them have a pretty skewed view themselves over what makes a good player/GM/game.

>> No.38890812

If they rolled a success on an attack then they hit. This guy is negating the rules of his own game just to be a jackass.

>> No.38890815

Except the rules explicitly state that rolls are made using d10s.
Wick. Not even once.

>> No.38890823

If the player knows the armor class (or equivalent) and knows their damage then why shouldn't they help streamline the game? In most games there's no reason for the GM to run every mechanical calculation. Obviously if there's something the players aren't aware of and the GM steps in and says "actually no" then that overrules them, but that's really the exception. Players helping to run the game is a good thing, if you aren't a control freak.

>> No.38890828

Who the fuck would be willing to play a game with this guy? You'd have better luck with a freaking anime themed forum game run by a 14 year old weeabo than you would with him as your gm

>> No.38890832

John Wick is a good example of Abused GM Syndrome.

>> No.38890833

>If a player wants to just suppose shit like when they hit or when they deal damage then why can't the DM?

But the player barely said anything. He just rolled once, made it, and told the GM his damage. The rest of the "transcript" might as well be Wick talking in a vacuum. Hell, I'm sure if the player's lines were taken out he'd have an orgasm.

>> No.38890842


Wick: And then he teleports behind you, his katana held sideways as if he just slashed. Your vision seperates as your body falls apart. "Nothing personnel kid" he grunts as he walks off.

>> No.38890843


How would he know the AC if he hadn't rolled for initiative yet? Not to mention hidden modifiers the DM applies.

>> No.38890850

I don't really understand what point this is making.

>> No.38890853
File: 109 KB, 1280x720, cant schwick the .jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?

>> No.38890856

One bit in the book is Wick talking about how satisfying it was when one group of players finally brought that particular NPC to justice, so I dunno.

>> No.38890858

Is this when a player starts his gaming life with a bad GM and then grows up to become a bad GM as well?

Isn't it possible that Wick's shittiness is in his GMing genese?

>> No.38890861

I assume it's a different sort of system being described, or he wouldn't be allowed to attack in the first place. Initiative every round or the like.

>> No.38890867
File: 107 KB, 300x269, the spanish inquistition.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>>II. Don’t Invoke Monty Python

What does this even mean? Behave or be stomped by a foot?

>> No.38890874

The point is that using silly stuff from the rules (like hit points) is pointless because you can just ignore them and make the players -sorry, the characters suffer in other ways.

>> No.38890876

>>It works well in a samurai game, with the players knowing that they’re always four feet away from death.
>Why are they always four feet away from death? Why not 3 and 1/4 feet or 22 feet sometimes?

It's the tagline of L5R, where you're supposed to be 4 feet (a sword at the end of an arm) away from death at all times, and that you need to take that into consideration when playing a samurai that you'r job is not to avoid dying but to die well.

He actually write some decent advice on running an Eastern game, shame he's a total asshat about regular GM stuff.

>> No.38890878

Some chucklefuck is soiling your good name by being the biggest dick in the universe.

>> No.38890888


Just saying, this is supposed to be a bad player. Not just some random guy rolling to attack and being shut down for no reason. Otherwise I wouldn't make that assumption. In a different context though, of course that's shitty DMing.

My biggest problem with wick is that he doesn't give enough context for a lot of the shitty things he does and it just makes him look like a complete ass.

>> No.38890891

That is the only good rule in the bunch.

>> No.38890892

>II. Don’t Invoke Monty Python
Good. I fucking hate that shitty comedy.

>> No.38890893
File: 329 KB, 640x401, wick says .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Oh. Well... as long as he leaves my puppy alone, I don't really mind.

>> No.38890897

This is fairly cool as well:

>Back to the Vampire game. When my players got Blood Points, they got them in the form of Hershey’s Kisses. You know, the kind wrapped up in red?

>When Viscicitude came to town (a nasty vamp disease for those who don’t know), I started giving out the ones with the crunchy middle. By the time they bit down, it was already too late.

Sadly, this is is one of like three good ideas in that book.

>> No.38890903


I like the idea of giving up your character's soul to death.

Of course, nothing stopping you from remaking the same character next week, but I think the DM should take a character sheet from someone. Or the party should burn it as a sign of funeral rites.

>> No.38890905

Maybe that comes across when it's in context, but it's not at all clear from the excerpt alone.

>> No.38890906

It's a "roll for initiative each round" deal.

The charitable interpretation is he's saying to be descriptive. Don't just go "He rolls to grapple. Succeeds. Wins initiative. Rolls to pin. Succeeds."
But from the other stuff in that chapter, I think it's more "rules and combat mechanics don't matter, just wing it based on your own knowledge of combat"
Like, I'm trying to imagine how you could go into an armbar on the sword arm as you're being wounded by the blade. All I can imagine is the villain's impaled, or in moving in he's drawing the sword across him (Wick wrestled in high school, but didn't do sword fighting, so he didn't think about that and have the villain take any damage)

>> No.38890915

You're alright, John Wick.

>> No.38890918

He plans to kill your pupyuppy as a means to feel power over you.

>> No.38890922

Except the example of him being a 'bad player' is telling the GM the results of his roll, presumably instead of telling the GM the roll and waiting for the results. If the problem is something else, then why not address that directly, instead of sabotaging the character in unrelated situations?

>> No.38890924

>Just saying, this is supposed to be a bad player.
Only in Wick's mind is this an example of a bad player. Actually, not even that. The chapter this passage is taken out of isn't about bad players, it's about how to play a good villain and about how "if you don’t use every method at your disposal to win, you’re not only a fool, but you’re a fool on the wrong end of a 4 foot razor blade".

Man, Wick sure loves 4 ft. blades.

>> No.38890932

It's a bit dated these days, and it certainly wasn't always a home run, even back then, but it was revolutionary and could be pretty fucking funny sometimes. If they aren't the Beatles of sketch comedy, then they're at least the Led Zeppelin of such.

>> No.38890937
File: 32 KB, 680x478, you dicked with the wrong wick motherfucker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.38890938


>> No.38890948

>One bit in the book is Wick talking about how satisfying it was when one group of players finally brought that particular NPC to justice, so I dunno.

Yeah, which would be fine, except CARTER KEEPS COMING BACK. He's not content with having him be the douchebag of one campaign that the party beat, he's the douchebag in every campaign that you won't be able to beat for most of the game unless you start off with the power to take out a billionaire industrialist who specializes in stealing your secrets and using them against you, who also funds you and your enemies for their own amusement. The PCs are explicitly employees of Carter, even if they don't think they are.

Using the chessmaster once would be a neat twist, using it multiple times is saying, "I want an in-game reason to fuck you over on every level at the drop of a hat."

>> No.38890949

Actually, I just read the full text of that section and it's not even a bad player. It's just how Wick thinks every combat should go, because 'villains fight dirty and hit points aren't important'. He also mentions four foot katanas twice in that section, so I guess he really likes that phrase.

>> No.38890952

In the sense that they're old and way past their prime to be used, when there are better, more timeless classics that could be used in their place? I agree wholeheartedly.

>> No.38890955
File: 747 KB, 248x200, 1382466300270.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Did you see that top hat? Clearly still suck in goth phase from high school in the late eighties and early nineties.


Absolutely. Nothing gets me angrier faster than being held accountable to someone else's actions.


This would imply Wick is a genius, when he is merely an asshole.

Now if you want to say he is inserting his self image into the game, I would be inclined to agree.

>> No.38890959

It isn't that it isn't funny. It is that we have heard the joke ten billion times and don't need to hear the entirety of the dead parrot sketch every time a Pointy-Ears the elven pirate shows up.

>> No.38890973

I would use a halberd if I were playing in one of his games, just so death could never get close enough to me.

>> No.38890975

What a passive aggressive bitch. Why can't he just try something like "Guys, could you please focus on the game?"

>> No.38890976

Is there a comprehensive list of this guys niggitry?

I'm off work today and wanna get mad.

>> No.38890986
File: 54 KB, 500x339, Do Better.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Not reading OP's pdf

>> No.38890996

>Punishing people for quoting monty python
You're just asking for everyone to point out the violence inherent in the system.

>> No.38890997


Crit hits are a thing in some systems.

He sounds like a guy who don't like GMing at all.

>> No.38891006

>its a pdf
Oops. Guess I'm blind

>> No.38891008

Our group made a rule agains the excessive use of horrible, horrible puns. Everyone has three strikes and after that he has to throw 50 cents into the pun box. Two of our players regularly pay all our pizzas and drinks that way because they can never shut up.

>> No.38891016

>let's pretend for a moment. We're role players we can do that.


>> No.38891039

Well, this I can agree with. But maybe my friends are more sophisticated or something, because if they made a Monty Python reference, chances are it would be oblique or at least deadpan.

>> No.38891041

You're looking at it. The passages in this threads are the most cringe-inducing ones, at least as far as his attitude towards GMing goes.

The whole book is a goldmine for stunted, pretentious, masturbatory prose, though. He keeps putting these little asides in his writing, little jokes that I'm sure he thinks are hilarious, and uses ten words where one's enough. Honestly, it's just tiring to read through it.

>> No.38891046 [SPOILER] 
File: 20 KB, 500x367, 1427123513635.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

You have a Pun-ishment Box?

>> No.38891050


Well played anon, well played

>> No.38891052

This >>38891016 is exactly what I'm talking about

>> No.38891062

I love you Carlos.

>> No.38891064

>You are working with the players to tell a story.
Nope. Neither me, nor my players are interested in story. We are interested in challenging ourselves and sweet feeling of victory from overcoming these challenges.

>> No.38891065


Talk about a word trade center

>> No.38891066

>(All right, ten seconds to go. Cue audience. Cue Wick. And in five... four... three... two... one... )

>“Welcome back to Players Assume the Craziest Things! And here’s your host, Jooooooohn Wick!!!”

>Thank you. Thank you. If I could think of something funny to say , you’d all be laughing now.

>(cue laugh track)


>> No.38891073

Then just kick them out. I never understood why people waste time playing with people they hate. I've been in multiple groups in my life and whenever I got the feeling that my style of gaming and that of one group did not match I talked with them and if we couldn't find a common ground I left the group without making a big fuss. Everything else would have led to intensive butthurt on both parts and broken friendships.

>> No.38891084


Aren't the challenges tied together in a story ?

I mean, I suppose you could do without, but it's rare a GM just goes "here is the challenge. Solve it"

>> No.38891105



You don't fix things by smashing them, and you don't solve relationship problems by being a jerk

>> No.38891111

Why the hell would you have rules in the game if you insist on ignoring them?

>> No.38891122

Come to think of it, that's basically CHIM.

>> No.38891131

>Aren't the challenges tied together in a story ?
Nope. My last game was literally about group of monster hunters who wandered in fantasy kingdom and solved "problems" for money. There was no story behind that; just series of hunting events.

>> No.38891133

Even those Challenge of Champions adventures in Dungeon, which were literally just that, had a plot, with teams trying to cheat or sabotage the party.

>> No.38891142

Well, it's entirely plausible that the GM finds those rules to be needlessly complex, poorly worded, difficult to remember or just don't properly represent the situation the party is in.

In those cases, a common tactic is to make shit up and wing it.

Thing is, when you put a GM like that with a Rules Lawyer you can get stuck with situations of the two arguing for literal hours.

It's why vetting players and informing them that YOU are the last word and not the book when it comes to the rules of this game, is very important.

>> No.38891147

Yes and that makes me a sad pun-da. This situation is unbearable.

>> No.38891167

>Thing is, when you put a GM like that with a Rules Lawyer you can get stuck with situations of the two arguing for literal hours.
I do that, But, if Rules Lawyer is right and I know that, I'll say "sure, you're right, let's do it this way". Because rules are important.

>> No.38891173

>we don't have a story
>describes a story

Monster-of-the-Week is still a story, and a pretty good one. You don't have a character/narrative focus on your game, and that's fine, but you're still playing an RPG and not a board game, and you have a narrative framework in which you play.

>> No.38891184

I don't like to think of myself as a rules lawyer. I am just the kind of person when invited to a game, I read the whole rule book and try to commit as much of it to memory as I can. Because I don't want to be that guy holding up the game by asking how do I attack. Problem is, it often seems like i am the ONLY person in a group that read it. So when I correct another player or a GM, It's because I am not 100% certain they know what they are doing. I know that might make me a dick, but come on. If you want to just waive most of the rules why are we playing system X instead of just free form system Y? I feel like it was a waste of my time to be told we are playing one system, and then ignoring 80% of said system.

>> No.38891187

I wonder how much of this is him genuinely being an ass-hole through and through, and how much of it is a persona that went out of control as he got desperate for attention/relevance.

>> No.38891188


See, I think that this guy has missed the point. I've been a GM for an eternity, and what I usually do - when I have time to narrate - is to use the die rolls to narrate. I don't stack things against the players like this, I just translate the die rolls into cinematic combat.

Like, when you hit someone, you don't just swing and hit him. The two of you exchange a flurry of blows and when he reels back, he has a big cut across his chest. Or when someone fires at you and you dodge, the wall explodes around you and your duster (for example) is reduced to tatters.

This kind of narration is a lot easier in a Quest, but I'm not making stuff up, so to speak. The dice said you succeeded, so I'm just having you succeed dramatically to impress that you're really good at this. This feels more like making things up.

>> No.38891197

This isn't a story. There was no plot, no NPCs with any personality, no quests, nothing but wilderness and monster in it.

>> No.38891218
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Yes, but the GM is still defining what the "right" reading of this ruling is.

Problem is when it becomes an inane circular argument like pic related that goes on for hours.

Taking their sheet and forcing them to remember everything by Heart is shit GMing, regardless of rules lawyering context.

>> No.38891227


It's like expecting computers to work when they have no fucking memory.


>> No.38891232

>no plot
But wandering around a kingdom fighting monsters for money IS a plot. Not a great one, mebbe, but solid enough for many seasons of television.

And are you telling me that the PCs didn't have any sort of character traits whatsoever? I've done hexcrawls where we lost characters regularly and they still had a bit of something that defined them, even if it was just a reflection of the player.

>> No.38891243

John Carter has a geneticaly engineered monstrosity with longer arms in his corporate vault. WICK WINS AGAIN!

>> No.38891256

>But wandering around a kingdom fighting monsters for money IS a plot.
Okay, define plot. For me, plot is a conflict with beginning, middle and the end; it starts, develops, reach peak and end. Wandering around a kingdom isn't a plot; there is no conflict "in-between", nothing which binds game sessions together.

>And are you telling me that the PCs didn't have any sort of character traits whatsoever?
Nope. For all purposes, they were just killing machines. Game wasn't about their characters; it was about killing monsters.

>> No.38891289


Oh god, no. You don't want that in your games. Because no matter how dirty you think your villains are, your players can be DIRTIER.

Shit, you don't want that to happen. If your players go full survivalist, all hell breaks loose. We're talking full-on My Lai.

>> No.38891322

>define plot
"Plot" was always explained to me as the sequence of events, which usually follows a beginning->middle->end structure but can have a meta-plot that works as a framing device, organizing things so that they follow one after another.

In this case, I would say that you had a plot each session of "here's a monster, hunt and kill it", while the metaplot was covering your travels across the kingdom; where you went, in what order, and what you did when you got to those places.

But I'm not sure I understand why you're playing an RPG instead of Castle Ravenloft or some other board game if all that you care about is killing monsters. You'd get the mechanics of monster-hunting without that pesky CHA stat.

>> No.38891323

>John Carter
Holy shit. Are we fighting on Mars now? Because I'm betting that I'd be some kind of superman in the lower gravity of that planet.

>> No.38891334


Don't go all political pun-dit on us, anon.


Of course it's shit GM. Wick isn't trying to solve a problem, he just wants to punish his players.

What a wick-ed man

>> No.38891358

Let me rephrase this: Why would you have rules in the game that YOU YOURSELF CONSTRUCTED if you insist on ignoring them? Why did you even make a system in the first place? Why would you find your own rules too complex and poorly worded if you wrote them? That would be inconceivable to such a pompous, arrogant twat as John Wick.

>> No.38891376

That's not rules lawyering, so it's good you don't think of yourself that way.

>> No.38891377

>I would say that you had a plot each session of "here's a monster, hunt and kill it"
Too little of a plot to call it one for me.

But I'm not sure I understand why you're playing an RPG instead of Castle Ravenloft or some other board game if all that you care about is killing monsters.
Because I planned it as "normal" RPG until I find out that nobody wanted plot and characters, but everyone wanted good combat and exploration.

>without that pesky CHA stat
Ain't playing system with one.

>> No.38891403

Well when I am insisting that "No, you can not take a move action and full attack." or "Reloading for that type of weapon is half action unless you have a certain talent" I have been accused of rules lawyering.

What's worse is that most of the time I am leveraging these rules against other players so they are not just breaking the encounter over their knee and leave us with a frustrated GM who later has to crank the future encounters into the insane territory since we were already breaking mechanics.

>> No.38891405

John Wick invented the Neopets TCG and wrote the original setting for L5R. We could just...disregard everything he's ever said.

>> No.38891413

Well, those people are full of shit. They're rules-lawyering and are pissed you're ruining their plans.

>> No.38891429


That's not rule-lawyering, it's just reminding people of the rules. On the other hand, why doesn't the GM already to it ?

>> No.38891467

>Problem is, it often seems like i am the ONLY person in a group that read it.

It seems either I get really unlucky with groups and everyone in them only skims the rules to get a basic understanding, or new players in general these days can't read. Because it is seldom I go into a group and find another person who knows the rule book better then i do these days. Which makes me sad, I don't want to be a buzzkill and ruin peoples fun. Knowing the rules and choosing to ignore or change them for dramatic or balance sake is one thing. I''m totally ok with that. No game is perfect. But just not knowing the rules and making shit up as you go along? Why did you even bother to tell me we were playing this system?

>> No.38891473
File: 175 KB, 600x750, Essentially.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Then what are you playing?

>> No.38891482

The GM has never heard of a photocopier?

>> No.38891702

Because that old Wick? He didn't know what he was talking about. A younger man, a less wise man, a man who couldn't plan for this obvious eventuality. Good thing you have current Wick around, an unparalleled genius!

>> No.38891866

>that pdf

What a pretentious fuckwit. Why would anyone ever play with someone like that?

>> No.38891920


And what if you CAN recall everything on your character sheet Mr Wick?

There isn't really that many things to recall unless you are playing something like GURPS or M&M. Maybe a vancian spellcaster.

>> No.38891975

The grand irony of that is that the rules lawyer appeals to an external set of rules which CAN BE REFERENCED. Meaning, anyone can pull out the rulebook, look up the area of contention, and say "Yeah, actually, he's right." The thing about taking away someone's character sheet is that you remove their ability to reference something at all. It's the exact opposite of what a rules lawyer does. It's like saying "You're going to beat me by playing fair? Well I'm going to prove to you that I'm better by playing unfairly!"

And Wick thinks he's apparently some master of Dao for this philosophy of GMing. What a fucking joke.

>> No.38892018

Wick's players are all basically trapped in an abusive relationship they can't get out of, aren't they.

>> No.38892079

It seems to me that a lot of Wick's tricks rely on being very much enabled by players, especially the "attack everything but their hitpoints" aspects.

The murderhobo who only roleplays insofar as it gives him extra xp isn't going to retire the character because of the collateral damage, or a threat to the character's family. Wick must have decent roleplayers to abuse mercilessly.

>> No.38892116

>behind your screen

>> No.38892165

And in a similar fashion, Wick relies on his players being afflicted with either desperation ("Nobody else is willing to DM!") or ignorance. No one who is not either desperately wanting to play, or ignorant of the sort of bullshit Wick advocates pulling, would willingly play with him.

>> No.38892249

He's a game designer. In many people's minds alone that translates to "good GM".

>> No.38892258

>And if he does it enough, players start looking to him for rulings rather than you.

Yes somtiems the DM isn't infallible and the players judgement and memory is better.

If people look towards a guy who's not the dm on mechanics what's so bad about that?
It's just extra help to the dm as I see it.

>> No.38892261

Doesn't this encourage players to create highly optimized, rule-bending monstruosities?

>> No.38892276

>II. Don’t Invoke Monty Python
That one is kind of classic, since the opportunities for it never stops.

>> No.38892308

To get an idea of what he thinks is a good campaign when he's "playing fair", check out Thirty, the RPG and campaign of being a Knight Templar. Aside from the campaign being poorly edited, lots of it is kind of stupid, from the secret treasure being inside you all along, to the bit where the PCs meet the players, to the Holocaust level where you win by finding the jew's courage sufficiently inspirational.

>> No.38892326

No, because if John Wick deems your character to be abusing the creation rules, he will engineer a perfect roll to knock your character down. >>38890478

>> No.38892328
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>Holocaust level where you win by finding the jew's courage sufficiently inspirational.

>> No.38892337

No. Actually his GMing style sounds great. It would be a tough and difficult experience, but one that if you could last, would actually be worth it. Being in one of his games sounds like a memorable experience that you could brag about to other gamers as an example of a game run correctly. Instead of circle jerks where the only good point was how much time it wasted while waiting for the next GM to come along.

Probably because he weeds out the "murderhobos" mercilessly. You want a dog to stop shitting on the carpet, you smack it until it figures out how to shit on the newspaper. Good training for low int types is similar across all species.

>> No.38892346

Oh, and he recycles the whole "naming the Lying Darkness" bit

I also forgot all the fedora tipping, with Satan mourning how the Catholics literally raped and murdered knowledge, and a "deleted scene" where a 30 foot tall Jesus goes on a rampage to "kill all them faggots"

>> No.38892371

>No. Actually his GMing style sounds great. It would be a tough and difficult experience, but one that if you could last, would actually be worth it. Being in one of his games sounds like a memorable experience that you could brag about to other gamers as an example of a game run correctly. Instead of circle jerks where the only good point was how much time it wasted while waiting for the next GM to come along.
Yeah, no. You see, I don't play games to brag about how tough and difficult that was, or tell tales about my games run correctly. I play to have some fun, and that kind of fuckery completely removes that from said game.

>> No.38892373
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>> No.38892379
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>Good training for low int types is similar across all species

What a badass line, anon.

>> No.38892390

More like a fucking terrible experience that you remember for going through five character sheets in one session and having to resist the urge to lamp him in his smug fucking face every time he took one away from you.

>> No.38892394
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>> No.38892395

>These tactics are last resort measures, meant for those too stubborn to either accomodate others or leave the group.

That's fucking bullshit, though. If someone refuses to work with the group, you tell them to fuck off. If they refuse to leave, then that's an issue outside the game and you should call the cops or something.

>> No.38892399

>It would be a tough and difficult experience
>I'm going to engineer impossible situations and encounters!
>The only way to win them is in an extremely specific course of action I've already thought out ahead of time!
>You have a power that lets you do what? No, I don't fucking care what the rules say, you can't do that!
>Stop ruleslawyering! The BBEG crits you and you die instantly!

Man, you must be a real fucking joy at the table.

>> No.38892413

He says something like "that's the -real- way to deal with it" earlier in that chapter.
I'm willing to bet he never has done so in his time as a GM. All about that smugness and passive aggression.

>> No.38892423

>If someone refuses to work with the group

Hell, most of this isn't refusing to work with the group. Rules-lawyering is not refusing to work with the group. Maybe refusing to go along with the DM's bullshit, but certainly not refusing to go along with the group. Wick is punishing people for crossing him, not necessarily for ruining the game or screwing with his other players.

>> No.38892454

See, the first plane the PCs enter is the realm of the mind, so people's ideas about various figures are incarnated. Wick suggests having them meet Gnostic Jesus, a Jewish ascetic, who soon tells them they have the wrong guy and points them to one of the four Gospel Jesuses, all blond haired guys performing constant miracles. Then there's a rumbling sound, and Gnostic Jesus screams "Run for your lives! It's Fundamentalist Jesus!"

>> No.38892475
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...well, ok then. That is a thing.

>> No.38892492

It's like faux symbolism and 2deep4uism on steroids. Fuckin a.

>> No.38892493

If I wanted to play Not-Persona Shin Megami Tensei, I'd play Shin Megami Tensei.
Which is pretty much that, except somehow more edgy.

>> No.38892498

Out of all the bullshit in this thread, this is the one that makes me rage the hardest.

If a part of your system is completely immune, that means it can't be affected by external factors. If the cure doesn't work because your cells or genes or whatever reject it because they're "immune to it", then they'd reject the disease in the first place because you ARE FUCKING IMMUNE TO IT. You can't have it both ways.

captcha: byWik

>> No.38892523

Go home, Wick.

>> No.38892525

Sound like the unwritten rules at student associations. Like, using your mobile phone at the bar is cause for it to be dunked in the sink. Stand with your back to the bar, and you're liable to have water dumped in your neck. Those sorts of things.

And even in that environment, they're barely put into practice.

>> No.38892527

Oh no, don't you understand? Rules only exist to constrain the players! The GM should be allowed to violate the very same rule he then proceeds to enforce! Hence the hatred for powergamers and the existence of Carter being intrinsic to so many of his stories.

>> No.38892542

So, why does anybody at all plays with John Wick?

>> No.38892571

Oh, it's pretty bad. The way to "win" that plane is to give the Fruit of Knowledge to Eve. A group of devout Catholics are supposed to decide that repeating the Original Sin is the right thing to do. It's an obvious puzzle (use APPLE on EVE) but from a symbolic, and in character, perspective it makes no sense.

>> No.38892578

But that actually sounds amazing and hilarious. A 10/10 comedy game.

>> No.38892602


These days I think he can get some players due to fame as well.

>> No.38892603

Except he thought it was deep and dramatic.

>> No.38892650

Actually, the Original Sin isn't based on eating the apple itself- it's deciding that the judgement of God is lesser than the judgement of mankind, rejecting the simplest of truths- we think we're playing by our rules, and we're not.
No matter how much people pretend to see the truth in a different light, it's still the truth.
In fact, even the concept that humans should judge whether Eve eats the apple or not is in of itself falling into that trap.
We have to face the truth, and understand that some things just are- pretending they're not its the first step of every ignorance and evil.
The knowledge the app[le contains is that we've made a mistake, and now that we've decided to declare what the truth is, we have no bearing pint to go on until we realize that we're not the ones writing the rules.
tl:dr- Someone really likes being a fedora-tipping asshole.

>> No.38892651


I think someone owes /tg/ pizza.

It's you.

>> No.38892657
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It was sort of funny when Ghastly did it with Aryan Jesus and Drunk and Bitter Jesus.

>> No.38892740

I miss that shitty comic. Too bad ol' boy got cock-hungry then went batshit insane.

>> No.38892743
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>> No.38892747

That's funny, but Wick would insist that it isn't and if you laugh you just don't get it

>> No.38892779

Slashdot isn't that popular. The parallel Aryan Jesus is looking for is probably Google.

>> No.38892825

Also, this isn't meant to be a 'You should believe what I believe' post.
It's just explaining some of the symbolism behind the garden of Eden.

>> No.38892846
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>> No.38892883
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>2004 was 20 years ago

>> No.38892885
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Then have your little cry-ins around the table whining about how your character should be able to destroy the whole session based on the number crunching done by someone else on internet who posted them. Enjoy having done nothing really noteworthy at the table. No tales to tell. Nothing interesting gained.


>> No.38892889

>makes one of my favorite things
>is the shittiest person in his industry

John Wick is Kanye West

>> No.38892896

0/10, get out of my shop.

>> No.38892906

Not quite mate. Not quite

>> No.38892907
File: 1.99 MB, 340x265, 1427041017109.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>2014 was 30 years ago

>> No.38892914

>Spiderman shitposting
wow its like im really on /v/

>> No.38892915

You have shit taste if you like anything Kanye has put out. His fashion is derivative and hideous, his music is egotistical and plain, and his productions can be done the same by most anyone else in his field.

>> No.38892918
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>strawmanning this hard

>> No.38892934

I browse /v/, /co/ and /tg/.
Can't remember the last time I saw it on /v/ while I saw it here today and on /co/ yesterday.
I see it as more of a /b/ thing.

>> No.38892945

>Jackson Pollock is a bad artist because anyone could have made his paintings

>> No.38892960

Let's see you do better. How many platinum albums have you written, preformed, and produced? Oh that's right. None.

You will never be even a infinitesimal percent of Kanye West.

>> No.38892968


>> No.38892974

>popularity equals quality

Daily reminder that Bible is the best work of fiction ever written.

>> No.38892976

Fortunately, he will also probably not be anywhere near as terrible a person, even if I disagree with him.

>> No.38892981

>Daily reminder that Bible is the best work of fiction ever written.

That just shows how ignorant you are. Most historians consider it a primary document.

>> No.38893014

>That just shows how ignorant you are. Most historians consider it a primary document.

You need to get your head out of your fundamentalist ass. While there are certainly parts of it that were based on actual events, lots of stuff - like jews being enslaved by egyptians - is fully made up and not supported by any other sources.

>> No.38893061

Not true at all.

Genetic evidence points to enslavement in Egypt.

>> No.38893064


I will say that in most cases of his discussions, he's not being quite as much of an asshole as he comes across as. (It doesn't help that his normal writing style is something like 60% Edge.)

For instance, he doesn't tend to outright PUNISH choices at the table: instead, he has his villains develop strategies to abuse the character's choices. His immunity example above, while stupid, is an illustration of this: people tend to take "immune to disease and poison" fairly frequently in superhero games. But are they aware of the number of repercussions that has? Alcohol is useless to you now. Cigarettes don't do shit. Drugs no longer work. And depending on how it's implemented, it could do some freaky shit to you biologically.

Also, a lot of his super-hero stories are centered around the fact that, in his setting, the Justice League was essentially founded by Lex Luthor so he could secretly keep tabs on all the heroes, and use that knowledge to bring them down.

I personally think that John Wick got caught in a feedback cycle: he came to prominence at a time where a lot of games were making it really hard to hurt or kill PCs. He started making waves as a guy not afraid to do that. (I think in one of his books there's a story on how his first PC deaths were just accidents or something) Which made him interesting at the time, so more people started coming to his games, so he suddenly became "the killer GM", so he had to play to his own mystique, until he got stuck in this oppositional role. And he's basically been told he'd doing great every step of the way, so now, we see the monolith of murder and arbitrary strictness he's become, and we go "Wow, how'd you get to be such an asshole?" The answer is "Someone built him up to be that."

>> No.38893195

So I don't want to read this piece of shit. Is it about GM advice? Some weird autobiography thing? A bit of both?

>> No.38893199

I loved this book, a bit pretentious and harsh but a lot of the suggestions in it are quite simple.
>When a player takes a flaw make it feel like a flaw
>When in combat against a badass enemy make it hurt
>Make everyone John McClane

>> No.38893210

>Genetic evidence points to enslavement in Egypt.
And historical documentation in egypt points to slaves not being a primary labor force to building the pyramids.

>> No.38893212

GM advice that was designed to piss people off but has some decent ideas in it.

>> No.38893222

>Daily reminder that Bible is the best work of fiction ever written.
No one thinks that. The Bible is not that well written.

>> No.38893242

Why would he design it to piss people off?

And I just read a bit, christ, I could write a better GMing advice book than this. Half of these things are obvious.

>> No.38893253

Please read. He was refuting an Anon who said popularity=quality.

>> No.38893255

Look at this thread for a second. This is his favorite reaction from strangers ever.

>> No.38893261

It's the most popular book, therefore it must be the best. See >>38892960

>> No.38893266

Ah, makes sense, he got the correct reaction. Still though, why?

>> No.38893274


I agree, but I also think i might be something that goes back to some of the points I made in >>38893064

As a side example, After Transformers 2, Michael Bay said "Okay, this shit is stupid, I wanna go do something else, something that isn't just big budget destruction porn." Stephen Spielberg (an executive producer for the entire Transformer series) convinced him not to.

I think the Mastermind NPC became part of Wick's schtick, so to speak. I mean, think about it: let's say you got into a game with John WIck, the Killer GM. You've heard buzz about his nigh-unbeatable criminal mastermind of a villain. How do you feel when he wants to run a one-shot where the villain is this bumbling idiot who's only winning because he's lucky? A lot of people would feel cheated. They went into the game with expectations.

Because that's the thing he's known for. He's known for being a vicious bastard at the table. And people still love playing with him. So his advice is all about how to push players by hurting them, which is irritating to some, and moderately offensive to others.

>> No.38893296

I guess it's a troll mentality.

>> No.38893301

>So his advice is all about how to push players by hurting them, which is irritating to some, and moderately offensive to others.
No, I just read a section, his advice on how to do this is terrible. He's too hard pressed, too "us against them". Maybe it was just the part I read but you never hurt the players yourself, you make them hurt themselves and convince them it's a good idea to hurt themselves again. That's what causes real frustration when you point out their own inability to "stop hitting themselves"

>> No.38893304

>A lot of people would feel cheated.

And instead they'll get a game where they get to face Carter and are ACTUALLY cheated.

>> No.38893329

Um, question?
I don't think the Israelites were ever mentioned to having been building the Pyramids.
...Are you getting that impression from another source?

>> No.38893333

>Sound like the unwritten rules at student associations. Like, using your mobile phone at the bar is cause for it to be dunked in the sink.
I will literally break someone's nose if they damage my $800 phone for any reason.

>> No.38893344

>$800 phone
Did you plate it in gold, quadmaster?

>> No.38893350

>Like, using your mobile phone at the bar is cause for it to be dunked in the sink.
Who does this ever?

Sometimes I just want to drink but not have to turn on the TV to have fake human noise, but want real human noise to listen to.

>> No.38893351

>Jackson Pollock
is not Kanye West. For one, Pollock had a vision. Kanye just likes Kanye a lot. But more relevantly, it's also not what I claimed. So who exactly are you attacking?

>popularity is quality
>Let's See You Do Better fallacy
>ending with blind hero worship
Better yourself.

>> No.38893387

He paid someone to jailbreak his current gen iPhone in order to make it waterproof. In short, he deserves fully to have it dunked in the sink.

>> No.38893396

not the same guy, but isn't that what an iphone costs?

>> No.38893411

The Bible isn't fiction, it's mythology.

>> No.38893415

He had some good ideas. He had some bad ideas. Describes most people.

Personally, I have more issue with the "why is this allowed" meme rather than Wick.

>> No.38893429

Those categories are not mutually exclusive.

>> No.38893439

It's both. Git gud

>> No.38893472

That's just your opinion.

I don't say that to dismiss you, I say that to point out that some people LIKE that type of game.

Hell, I'm half on your side. I personally wouldn't play with this guy for a variety of reasons. I don't particularly like his style of doing things. But the fact is that he was popular as a GM, and he's written games that plenty of people enjoy because of it, and even written books about how to GM that some people like.

We don't have to like his methods. His stance on things is his opinion. Your stance is yours, my stance is mine.

As a further illustration, I don't like what he does, but your suggestion of "you never hurt the players yourself, you make them hurt themselves" sounds equally childish and one-dimensional. Some forces are outside PC control. And if their actions get them in trouble, fine, that's realistic. But not every problem they have is directly or even indirectly their fault. That's unbelievable.

That's the major part of his whole schtick that irritates me. When I make challenging encounters, I don't have to cheat to make them challenging. I understand fudging a roll here or there, especially for dramatic tension/appropriateness (for instance, if the BBEG hasn't rolled over a 5 in the first couple rounds, I'll give him a free 16 or something, or the players will beat him and wonder why anyone was afraid of him.) But outright shit like he suggests is just cheap.

Only if you use literally the most expensive wireless plan. If you settle into a normal plan, you can get the newest iphone on the market for around $500-600. Or the 2 year old one for $200-300.

>> No.38893493

>I have more issue with four words on an anonymous imageboard than a recognizably big name in the tabletop gaming industry giving passive-aggressive, infantile, friendship-wrecking, power-tripping advice that newbie GMs will eat up and use to destroy their groups with.

>> No.38893522

Honestly, rules like that are the Sodomy Laws of college campuses. They're never, ever enforced these days, but they're kept around for the sake of tradition and always having a threat hanging over someone's head for 'misconduct'.

>> No.38893531

That is false. Mythology is professed to be true and a presentation of cosmological facts by its originating culture while fiction isn't.

>> No.38893550

Are you kidding me?

Shit, I didn't even know this guy until /tg/ posted his book over the summer. I read that shit 'cause it was pretty interesting.

He gives advice. Some of it's good, some of it's bad. People are responsible for what they allow to influence them. Use your judgement, you know that thing you left in a box on the shelf in your mother's house? Might want to dust it off now and then.

It doesn't matter who gives what advice, not all of it is going to be applicable to every group. It's your job to seize on the things you think are good ideas, or that you think will work well with your group, or what have you.

>> No.38893571

But that doesn't make it true.

>> No.38893577
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>Bad advice is okay to give because people can choose to ignore it!
>People in positions of authority giving godawful advice are immune to criticism, because people can choose not to take the advice!

>> No.38893585

I kind of wonder if this book would influence anyone trying to read it for advice. Maybe someone who already was a weirdo might consider it to justify his innate bias. But I'd like to imagine that it would sound wackjob to any well-adjusted person regardless of DM experience.

>> No.38893592

I never said it did. I merely said it was claimed to be factual by its originating culture. That doesn't make it true.

>> No.38893606

That still makes it fiction.

>> No.38893641

Let's see if I can still speak around all the word you've put in my mouth.

Bad advice is okay to give people. It isn't good, but if you punished bad advice, why would anyone give any advice, for fear of giving bad? Besides, what you think is good advice might not (gasp) be objective truth.

>people in authority giving bad advice are immune to criticism
I said that at no point.

Take your outrageism back to /pol/ or tumblr or something.

>> No.38893659

But 'fiction' carries a pretty clear connotation of "Hey, here's a story I thought up. Please read it for your enjoyment" versus mythologies' "Here's a story passed down in its true and unadulterated form. Read it because it's objectively true." If you can't tell the difference, that's really on you.

>> No.38893679

>Bad advice is okay to give people. It isn't good, but if you punished bad advice, why would anyone give any advice, for fear of giving bad? Besides, what you think is good advice might not (gasp) be objective truth.

At what point did anyone say that bad advice should be punished?

>> No.38893685

We're not tossing this advice on the bonfire because it's from Wick, we're tearing him a new asshole because of the advice he gives.

>Use your judgement
That's what we have done, and the conclusions abut Wick that we've reached have been put forth in this thread. Namely that the guy needs a large boot in his crotch and a psychiatrist on his case.

Now pull that galleon out of your arse and take your meds so you don't think you're the second fucking coming, ok?

>> No.38893687


>> No.38893690

>But 'fiction' carries a pretty clear connotation of "Hey, here's a story I thought up. Please read it for your enjoyment"
No it doesn't, your applying a connotation that isn't there.

>> No.38893692

>excuses bad advice from someone in a position of authority
>complains about people criticizing the guy who gave said bad advice
>I never said you couldn't criticize people for giving bad advice!

Get it together or fuck off, mate. Really quite simple.

>> No.38893728

>People are responsible for what they allow to influence them.
To an extent, yes. But the only people that read How to GM books, which is what this amounts to, are new or aspiring GMS that don't have many/any other experiences they can use to judge the validity of Wick's advice, and people looking for a cheap laugh with something related to their hobby. While the second group won't take up the poor advice, and can likely walk away from the book with the gems from it while leaving the shit behind, someone in the first group is liable to take everything. While taking the good with the bad is life, Wick's bad far outweighs his good.

Imagine you were dropping in a foreign civilization (we're roleplayers, we can do that), a bustling metropolis completely alien to you. There's a lot going on, you don't understand enough of it, and you don't know where to start. Eventually, you come across someone that speaks your language and is willing to show you the ropes. However, unknown to you, that person is an asshole with a terminally skewed perspective on life, and eventually his guidance lands you in hot water. Is it your fault for following his bad advice you had no way to judge?

>> No.38893730

>applying a connotation that isn't there

Yeah, the issue here isn't the explanation, it's just that you're too dense to understand how words work. So sorry that comparison isn't part of your mental arsenal, but that's not a problem that 99% of us are going to have, so it's on you to figure it out.

>> No.38893743

Go to bed John, nobody likes you.

>> No.38893748

Because in L5R, death is not actually a loss condition?

You go into the game expecting your character to die violently, and your job is to try to make sure that death is cool as hell.

>> No.38893753
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>resorting to petty insults
>not realizing that most people realize that mythology is put as a subset of fiction
>not realizing that he has connotations most people don't
No, fuck off.

>> No.38893789

OK, is this all some elaborate joke? Because this is all completely terrible. And he's got the same name as a recently popular movie character. It's just too much.

>> No.38893798

The implication that bad advice is not okay to give people, and that nobody can judge whether the advice they give is bad (or at least, that they can be overruled by random people reading it later) seems conducive to nobody giving anyone advice.

That's cool, bro. Are we allowed to talk about his good advice too, then?

For instance, I was pretty fond of his suggestion of letting players play NPCs. Anyone tried that, or had particular reason why they didn't?

I have yet to see any indication that he's in a position of authority. AFAICT, he made one system. Wrote some stuff for another. And... I guess wrote a book of advice? And maybe was a columnist?

>> No.38893801
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>> No.38893819

Keep watching Dr. Phil there anon.

I had the distinct impression after reading this, that Carter was there for one game and then
after that he was made a red herring/cameo guest star. I may have been reading too much into it, and I don't know the truth but that is what it seemed like to me. As far as using that "Type" of villain, well there are only so many types and most GMs feel comfortable with 2-3 at most. Just like players really.

Then do so. Tits or GTFO faggot. Fucking loser.

>> No.38893824
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Yeah, posting that doesn't make you right m8.

>> No.38893839

You're meant to ignore rules when they make no sense or fly in the face of common sense/integrity of the game.

If you can't do that, you might as well play videogames.

>> No.38893840

In the Greek mythology, Atlas holds up the sky.
Now, unless you're attesting that either, A, Atlas holds up the sky, or B, you can't categorize mythology by the fiction-nonfiction binary, I'm going to say that mythology is in fact fiction.

>> No.38893845

He's the writer for a fairly well-known RPG system. Not some minor-ass editor, but an actual person of importance in the game's creation. How does that not put him in a position of authority? Unless you're arguing that since he can't actually enforce rules against players he has no authority, which is an asinine stance to take because then nobody has any authority except a GM at a given time.

>> No.38893857

And sit down and shut the fuck up, since from what I've been reading, he sounds like a pretty cool guy to meet. Unlike passive aggressive beta faggots like yourself, and most the bitches on this board.

>> No.38893867

>seems conducive to nobody giving anyone advice.

Or, y'know, to those people who gave out bad advice going "Oh, huh, I can see how that's shit advice now," and then giving out improved advice.

>You should try hammering nails with your thumb right on top of the head.
>What? That's fucking retarded, you're retarded. It's better to put your thumb out of the way of the hammer so you don't smash it.
>Oh huh, yep. I'll pass that along.

>> No.38893873

Except that the ancient Greeks didn't talk about Atlas holding up the sky because they found it entertaining, they told the story because they believed it to be an actual true face. Therefore classifying it as 'fiction' is dishonest. Or are you going to claim that a Song of Ice and Fire and the Bible are the exact same thing?

>> No.38893877

>He's the writer for a fairly well-known RPG system.
I mean, it's not FATAL, but that's not what I'd call 'fairly well-known'.

Did he write the GM's guide for it?

I'll grant he doesn't sound great, but he really doesn't sound like the antichrist. Just another Monte Cook-tier cruddy designer.

>> No.38893878
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>> No.38893884

>mythologies' "Here's a story passed down in its true and unadulterated form. Read it because it's objectively true."
Yeah, I do not think anyone but yourself categorizes it like this. Next time you have someone tell you how Geb and Nut fucking causes tidal waves tell me.

>> No.38893890
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>he sounds like a pretty cool guy to meet

Oh, gotcha.

>> No.38893892

>The implication that bad advice is not okay to give people, and that nobody can judge whether the advice they give is bad (or at least, that they can be overruled by random people reading it later) seems conducive to nobody giving anyone advice.

By that logic, nobody should be allowed to be criticized about anything ever, because that would discourage people from doing stuff. In other words, you're a goddamn moron.

>> No.38893898

They are both fictitious.

Are you going to tell me that Lamarckian evolution isn't fiction, it's mythology?

>> No.38893907

>Therefore classifying it as 'fiction' is dishonest.
Except it falls under the definition of fiction?

>Or are you going to claim that a Song of Ice and Fire and the Bible are the exact same thing?
No because not all fiction is the same? Fiction is a VERY broad category. Something can be both mythology and fiction you dullard.

>> No.38893913

Simply by publishing this book, he's propping himself up as an authority on the subject. We're not reaming some poster on a forum, we're reaming someone who is so confident in his GMing mastery that he literally wrote a book on it. Let's not forget that the book opens with Wick presenting himself as an old school gamer with decades of experience you should listen to.

>> No.38893918




See why the distinction is necessary? No, of course you don't. Because you don't understand how intent can change the meaning of a narrative.

>> No.38893919
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Thank you sir. Finally a voice of reason and enlightenment.

>> No.38893953

So B then.

>but that's not what I'd call 'fairly well-known'.

Ok, so after telling people not to slag the guy telling people to run unmodified petrol engines on pure nitromethane, you go on to saying that Ferrari isn't a fairly well known car brand, and the fact that he happened to be Ferrari's senior engine development engineer wouldn't give him some kind of authority on the subject.

>> No.38893964

>See why the distinction is necessary? No, of course you don't. Because you don't understand how intent can change the meaning of a narrative.
I'm not trying to change the meaning of narrative, have you been reading? We are talking about the definition of fiction.

noun fic·tion \ˈfik-shən\
: written stories about people and events that are not real : literature that tells stories which are imagined by the writer

: something that is not true

Mythology falls under this. Mythologies are not true they are imagined by the writer and tell stories that are not real. As a subset of fiction mythology has other meanings, but it is still fiction.

>> No.38893991


>guy just shrugs, pulls out his phone and remakes his character in about five seconds using a character sheet app

Take my sheet, sure thing asshole. Touch my phone though and I'll gut you.

>> No.38893993

A book that seems to offer far more "advice" and entertainment then anything I've seen anyone on this board do. Like fucking movie critics, can't do better but still seem to hold themselves so high that they can tear down those that do.

>> No.38893996

There was a Neopets TCG?

>> No.38894015

It's more like /tg/ getting into a tizzy over someone they don't like.

This thread is making John Wick sound more like Matt Ward than anyone else.

>> No.38894022

A) That's meant to be on a case by case basis, ignoring a rule here and now because it produces a wonky result, not throwing it out forever.
B) The GM has no control over the publishing of the rules, the creator does.

When Wick starts getting pissy about a rule he himself deemed acceptable and decides to punish anyone invoking that rule, there is no reason for the rule to exist.

Let's put it in food terms. A is passing up on a hamburger someone else made because they're feeling sick and don't want a burger right now. B is passing up on a hamburger because they're a vegetarian and don't want the burger someone else made. Wick is a vegetarian chef that makes himself a big pile of hamburgers and then bitches that there are hamburgers in front of him.

>> No.38894037
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Too stupid to look at publishing dates and figure out that the writer was talking about a time before the technology the poster uses even existed.

Like saying, sure bomb Pearl Harbor in a sneak attack to destroy our battleships, we will just have Predator drones dropping bombs all over your fleet if you even try....

>> No.38894045

So, wait, this guy creates a disease that can affect people immune to disease. That's annoying but could be done well as a plot point.

But, it sounds like it only affects people with this disease immunity, and the cure somehow counts as a disease itself, so no one who could possibly get this disease can be affected by the cure. Therefore the cure cannot possibly work, so it isn't actually a cure.

In the hands of a good GM (sounds like not this guy) it's the hook to the second part of this section of plot.

>> No.38894046


Eh, I'll give you a 2/10, but that's the best I can do.

>> No.38894071

So now we need a license to fly commercial airliners before we can state that the Lockerbie disaster was not a textbook landing? Or a psychiatric degree to say you're a cunt?

Funny how no one ever seems to complain about these things when they agree with the critics.

>> No.38894108

You are full of shit and I hope you die in a fire. Just because I can't create a masterpiece doesn't mean I'm unable to recognize one when I see it or critize something that doesn't meet those standards.

>> No.38894118

Fiction: invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.

It really all depends on which definition you go by.

>> No.38894152

Take your bullshit and suck it down, cockgoblin. I don't have to be a world renowned chef to know when I don't like how a cake tastes.

>> No.38894153

>A book that seems to offer far more "advice" and entertainment then anything I've seen anyone on this board do
Obviously you haven't browsed this board much.

>> No.38894206
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Nice scarecrow you got there.

What is really funny is how instead of doing something logical, like posting your own advice and stories that counter anything he wrote, you bitch and whine like fags wanting to be treated like normal people, and not mental deviants.

>> No.38894208

I think he's just applying a more specific definition. The bible isn't fiction literature, even if it's literature that's a fiction. It's kind of like debating whether your thumb is a finger or your pickup truck is a car.

>> No.38894271

More like I browse it too much. The stench makes average to decent writing seem far better then it probably is. I just like that it counters so much bullshit slung around here from passive aggressive bitches just wanting to have excuses for their terrible fucking behavior. Blame the GM for their shitty behavior, rather then rectify it so that GMs can tell the fucking story rather then be busy disciplining little retard children.

>> No.38894319

>I just like that it counters so much bullshit slung around here from passive aggressive bitches just wanting to have excuses for their terrible fucking behavior.

..by telling the GM to behave like a passive aggressive bitch.

>> No.38894324


"hello I am a tremendous hipster faggot who still thinks my opinions are all somehow objectively true" the post

>> No.38894353

>I've been here too long, I should just leave.
>This place is trash look at me leaving you.
>See me leaving I'm really leaving this time guys.
>Enjoy your horrible board I'm totally leaving.
>You guys are such assholes.

>> No.38894431

Actually, it informs the GM to do the opposite, but presents ways to respond in kind for those of less testicular fortitude.

And presents interesting stories about implementation.

>> No.38894435

>When I say incredibly stupid shit, you should drop what you're doing to post in-depth examples of why I'm wrong with proper citations and examples instead of calling me out as a retard and going on with your life.
>You're a mental deviant for not countering my two sentences of retardation with at least four paragraphs of proof.

Not even than anon man but goddamn you sound stupid.

>> No.38894466

>GMs can tell the fucking story rather then be busy disciplining little retard children
But the sum of the character's actions is the story.
It's never what the DM says it's "supposed" to be.

>> No.38894479
File: 108 KB, 750x600, 1911-45-acp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Always respond in kind.

I try not to start shit, but when it comes flying I do tend to fling it back.

>> No.38894583

>muh castle doctrine
>muh victim complex
>muh hero delusion

>> No.38894625

He doesn't want to admit we're his only friends.

>> No.38894630

>but presents ways to respond in kind for those of less testicular fortitude.

Yeah, that's not a good thing. The only advice to give to those of "less testicular fortitude" is "nut up or accept it. Nobody has a group they don't deserve."

>> No.38894699

Technically it is a story.

"I went to the store and bought cheese, then came home" is a story. It's a shitty story, but it still counts. Yours is "the group went into the wilderness and killed this guy, and then killed that guy, and then killed this other guy..." and so on.

>> No.38894875

>talking shit about the Mr. Remora school of storytelling
Klaus pls

>> No.38895293

They're probably referring to MSRP, which is much higher than what it costs to get a phone if you also sign a year+ long contract.

Even with a contract, you are explicitly getting a discount on the phone, and pay sales tax on the full price. I had to pay almost $50 in tax on my Galaxy even though I only had to pay something like $150 for the phone itself out of pocket.

>> No.38895474

>Why is this allowed?

>>What I want you to do first is remember this: it all starts with a lie.

>>It’s at the beginning of Episode Zero. Pay attention and you'll see it. I say one thing, but demonstrate another

What's the lie, OP?

I kill characters. A lot of characters.

>> No.38895534


>kanye just likes kanye a lot

What a pedestrian view. I bet you "hate" justin bieber too, and I can't wait to hear your opinion on how idiocracy is a prophetic movie.

>> No.38895824

I tried to read the book but I wasn't into the central conceit that I should take him seriously at all, and study his words carefully to glean secret wisdom.

>> No.38896055
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>> No.38896190

Hi there. I'm John Wick.

(No, really I am. My e-mail is [email protected] if you'd like to confirm.)

First, as I've said before, the Champions game was a unique circumstance. It was an Iron Man environment (who can make it longest at John's game). It also followed on the heels of me running Call of Cthulhu for a year. I was dared to run a game like Champions where "it's impossible to kill characters." You'll also note that the only character I "killed" in those examples was the last one and only because the player requested it. The "I kill characters" comment was meant as an ironic statement and a lot of folks missed that. I don't kill a lot of characters.

Second, I also wrote the article in 1999. That's 16 years ago. Times have changed a lot. My own style of GM'ing has changed and is reflected, I think, in the current Play Dirty videos I post on my Youtube channel.

The John Wick of 1999 and the John Wick of 2010 have a lot in common, but they are not the same person. I disagree with some of the things the 1999 John Wick did and agree with others. So, I guess I'm in the same boat as everyone else.


>> No.38896336

Good stuff on finding that blog, anon.

>> No.38896344
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>The John Wick of 1999 and the John Wick of 2010 have a lot in common, but they are not the same person

What about the John Wick of 2015?

On a related note, if you want people to believe you're actually John Wick you can do better than a fucking gmail account that's just the guy's name. At least try and get something registered on Wicked Dead or AEG.

>> No.38896407

Here's the funny bit;

>John Wick July 21, 2010 at 11:01 AM

Search on the "no, really I am" line gives you a link to The Hopeless Gamer. Reply is near the bottom.

>> No.38896422

I find it funny that the kind of people who play Wick's crap are generally the ones who whine about Gygax. (who wouldn't have signed up for even a fraction of these shit gaming ideas)

>> No.38896595

It can get away of your hands easy. I was in a group with that kind of mentality. My PC has to fight his way to the local store and I have to roll every meaningless action, so I ended up playing some kind of retard who doesn't even know how to walk.
Quit after 3 sessions

>> No.38896630

It's actually his email, el retardo

>> No.38896711

>not replying to the guy that was calling you out for pretending
A retard is you.

But hey, we're all roleplayers, right?

>> No.38896839
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>> No.38897264

Trouble with the outrageous behaviour here is that really doesn't affect someone who takes precautions. Sure, you get my character sheet, but I've got a back-up on my PC at home and I've been taking session notes on my phone, so I'm not losing anything for your ego trip except a sheet of paper.

>> No.38898497

Because Wick wrote that as a ham-fisted poemic to say "STOP BEING MASSIVE FUCKWITS" to powergaming jackasses who had no respect for other folks' fun.

The book is a worthwhile read, even though I hate how he went about it. The City in a Box idea is sheer gold

>> No.38898574

Just to point out the oddity of it.

>July 21, 2010

>I also wrote the article in 1999. That's 16 years ago

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