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File: 49 KB, 636x733, dragonfly helmet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38763375 No.38763375 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Hey /tg/, can we have a samurai thread? You guys generally have the best historical threads, and /k/ isn't great for talking about medieval weaponry.

>post the most ridiculous helmets you can find
>discuss the superiority or inferiority of 'muh folded 1000 times katana
>share stories from games you played involving samurai
>etc

>> No.38763449
File: 124 KB, 600x832, Shelmet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38763449

>>38763375
That is a mantis.

>> No.38763512

>>38763375
Funfact I posted in a past thread that blew some anons minds, a no less than significant percentage of those crazy helmets were made as souvenirs for tourists in the Meiji period.

>> No.38763537
File: 191 KB, 700x956, octopus helmet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38763537

>>38763449
Of course it is, whoops.

>> No.38763592

>>38763537
Fucken Japs

I really want to wargame medieval Japan, maybe leading up to the rise of the Tokugawa shogunate, or some later unrest.

I think the LotR skirmish game would be great for small scale battles with a touch of samurai flick fantasy.

>> No.38763605

>>38763592
http://www.mediafire.com/download/m8xke04pc3hne2k/Ronin.pdf

>> No.38763641

>>38763592
Play a genpei game, because you never hear about that period around here, and it might be a nice change. Plus you can all learn a thing or two. Win-win.

>> No.38763642
File: 124 KB, 746x729, Squid helmet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38763642

de geso~

>> No.38764224

>>38763375
>>38763449
>>38763537
Are these actually authentic or something a modern artist made? They look too good to not be modern, but i'd love to be surprised.

>> No.38764393

>>38764224
I saw those two with my own eyes and yep, they are totally authentic... that is if by "authentic" you mean non-modern. Those are from the Edo-era, so definitely pre-modern, both from the early Edo.
Mind you they are obviously not battle helmets, since there wasn't that much battles during the Edo-era, they are more like displaying pieces. Old armors (O-yoroi) were frequently displayed as family treasures. Some were even sold to the europeans to buy european-based armor...
Funny thing, japanese wanted more advanced european plate armor while european wanted cool looking but obsolete japanese armor, so heh... they traded.

>> No.38764451
File: 251 KB, 2100x1575, 126-samurai-helmet1[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764451

>> No.38764461
File: 407 KB, 1122x2952, Noae_Kanetugu_Yoroi[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764461

>> No.38764478
File: 174 KB, 1000x667, 64e0139ba5819a81[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764478

>> No.38764551
File: 75 KB, 712x427, star-wars-samurai-trooper-darth-vader-0[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764551

>> No.38764609
File: 44 KB, 300x642, armor-karasu-tengu[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764609

>> No.38764635
File: 47 KB, 375x700, tumblr_m0c55haSf71qzn12eo1_500[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764635

>> No.38764655

>>38764609
>"Blacksmith, make me the most intimidating suit of armour imaginable. Make it look like my face is an angry, mustachioed cartoon bird with an itty bitty hat. Nothing says badass more than an itty bitty hat."

And yes, I know what a tengu is

>> No.38764674

>>38763512
How is that surprising in any way? These are obviously designed to be decorative, going into battle with a whole freaking animal gilded sculpture larger than your head is too silly even for samurai.

>> No.38764720
File: 172 KB, 595x967, 3736973f57868712d245985dc77081ae[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764720

>> No.38764758
File: 82 KB, 500x746, Relic Japanese iron halo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764758

>> No.38764792
File: 403 KB, 1500x1305, Japanese_Military_Uniforms_1841-1929-19.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764792

>>38763512
I find what happened even funnier.
>Tokugawa ends major fighting in Japan for 250 or so years.
>Armor designers go bonkwild with armor to fill the time.
>Japanese armies balloon up to include the Ashigaru foot soldiers as part of the military classes.
>War comes in the form of the Boshin War.
>Nobody wear's armor because the Armourers became silly fashion designers and there's way too many people now who are soldiers.
>Samurai reduced to wearing uniformed harnessed kimonos, their surcoats, and a helmet of sorts.
>Yet a few eccentric gentlemen type samurai showed up in said impractical dress armor.

>> No.38764808
File: 416 KB, 1247x811, 0000c3b0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764808

>>38764393
>Edo period
>starts after the pilgrim fathers discovered an empty continent
>pre-modern

You do know that we can track the country you're in within a few ten thousand miles, right, terrorist?

>> No.38764850
File: 99 KB, 736x1104, 1399566409905.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764850

>>38764792
The stuff does look pretty baller though.

>> No.38764887

>>38764792
What are those two beside the flag doing? Flying kites?

>> No.38764903
File: 54 KB, 380x640, 1399566346966.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764903

>>38764887
It is a flag.

>> No.38764929

did they ever actually wear these ridiculous helmets

>> No.38764930

>>38764635
>the Great Bat has entered the battle

>> No.38764940

>>38764929
>I can't read the thread

>> No.38764949
File: 307 KB, 817x804, Ming Dynasty Standard Bearer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38764949

>>38764887
What >>38764903 says.

In East Asia, there's a tradition that the main army flag has to be the tallest banner around for miles. Like taller than all the army banners. Since these things are often ornate and heavy they're supported by one or more standard bearers holding cables to keep the standar upright should the main standard bearer need any help.

Here's a period source - From 1560's Ming China though- to show you how it was done. The guy in the center has the main banner (in this case: a Yak Tail banner, a common banner adopted by the Chinese from Steppe Nomads, usually denoting mastery over them), whose supported by a couple of guys on horseback with cables.

>> No.38764972

>>38764551
RULES OF NATURE

>> No.38765025
File: 23 KB, 275x275, probably not authentic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38765025

>>38764224
>>38764393
These "kawari-kabuto" where the height of fashion in the Momoyama period, ie before the Edo period. They tend to be, or at least at that time they tended to be, battle helmets, with the large decorations being flimsy, lightweight things of papier mache and such put on top of solid, sensible combat helmets. So if the decorations got hit, got in the way, or someone grabbed them they'd simply be ripped off.

Some will be more modern ones, a few were probably done for tourist trade as well. Overall for later Edo period parade armour I'd expect other styles though,a s they generally looked back to the o-yoroi then instead.

>>38763449
Momoyama period, 17th century. The sea snail shell is gold leaf covered papier-mache.

>>38763642
Momoyama period, 16th century. Silver leaf over tanned leather, believed to have been owned by Kato Yoshiaki, famous for his deeds in the battle of Shizugatake (1583). According to a sotry a friend of his went to pick up his helmet once, and as it looks quite heavy he pulled quite hard, resulting in him falling over backwards as the helmet is in fact pretty light.

>>38764887
Maybe ready to assist if the wind gets troublesome?

>> No.38765063
File: 40 KB, 346x443, ATT00062.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38765063

>>38765025
Oh, and the bloody source...

Morihiro Ogawa (editor), "Art of the Samurai"

Pic: imported morion adapted for the local market.

>> No.38765216

Nearly 30 replies in this thread, and not a single accusation of being weeaboo faggots for enjoying medieval Japanese culture?
Sometimes, /tg/ just plain fascinates me.

tg gets awarded eighteen good boy points

>> No.38765324

>>38765063
>>38765063
Now that made my day !

>>38765025
You're saying Momoyama and XVIIth one after the other, but XVIIth century was the Edo period I was refering too (for the two specific models) >>38764393

>> No.38765358

>>38764808
For me, anything pre-industrial is pre-modern. In the case of Japan, everything pre-Meiji would be pre-modern.

What "empty continent" are you talking about anyway...?

>> No.38765468
File: 70 KB, 594x406, 2542488.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38765468

>>38765324
That was form "Art of the Samurai". I know some of the period occasionally end up a bit different based on context (so the eras as put forth in Nagayama's book ons words aren't quite the same as those you'll find in a regular history book), maybe somethign like that's afoot here.

Of course, the fashion didn't drop off overnight as Momoyama turned into Edo, OP's pic for example is an early Edo one. I think the more "costume" like armour of the not so early Edo period generally didn't go for kawari kabuto though, anyone got somethign solid there?

>> No.38765471

>>38765358
>What "empty continent" are you talking about anyway...?

Pilgrim Fathers not a big enough clue? There was only continent discovered during the early modern that was almost wholly depopulated by the epidemics of disease that followed.

>> No.38765548

>>38765468

How similar where the codes of Bushido and western Chivalry, both in theory and in praxis? I've always seen them as roughly interchangeable, are there any ideas in either that would be foreign to the other?

>> No.38765623
File: 87 KB, 865x598, Pierre Terrail, seigneur de Bayard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38765623

>>38765548
well most knights were unchivalrous and most samurai were unbushido.
mean bastards they all were.
But then, we do have some shining examples.

>> No.38765643

>>38765623

In terms of how they thought of their ideals, rather than the reality, is there any significant difference between Bushido and Chivalry?

>> No.38765748
File: 49 KB, 521x560, ss1-front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38765748

>>38765548
The biggest similarity is probably that they were both probably rather vague things back in the day, which has then gotten romanticised to lake Vostok and back in more recent times.

For bushido in particular I'm not certain there really was anything much to it beyond the ideals of Japanese society at large, plus some extra bits about martial valor that you'd expect form the warriors. of course, we should also keep in mind that there generally wasn't anything resembling a sharp divide between the warriors (samurai and ashigaru) and the rest prior to the Edo period, which is also when bushido as a concept may have gotten started properly. Thus there isn't much room for a special way of the warrior.

Our European warrior caste defined itself rather earlier (though it then ended up hiring a lot of commoners to help out not long afterwards), and thus we get a bit more of chivalry back when it's suppsoed to have been practised. I haven't looked into how it expressed itself to any major degree, though Oakeshott claims that the true core of it back then was basically to take shit and remain in good spirits. Blood gushing down your face from a cut? joke about how nice it was of your opponent to provide you with the drink, since you were quite thirsty.

One specific thing which probably would lead to a decent difference is the religious aspect, as in Europe we're looking at a monotheistic religion at odds with all the "false" religions, while in Japan anyone trying to paint himself as a defender of the true faith against the misguided followers of some other god would probably be the village idiot. What religious tension there was would tend to be due to very practical reasons, such as Nobunaga stomping down on some Buddhist sects because they held considerable political power, meaning they had to be dealt with just as any opposing daimyo on his way to ruling the land.

>> No.38765804

>>38765748

Interesting, thanks. I see few differences between the warrior cults of the ages, from antiquity down to the modern Marines they reify Duty and Loyalty and the culture of soldiery. It's the artists and poets who make these violent codes "civilized" and even beautiful, the codes themselves are a survival manual for being a warrior.

>> No.38766066

>>38765548
Bushido was mainly developped, as an ideal, in the Edo era, when there wasn't any war around, so it ended up being an ideal more than anything really practised by the samurais back in the day.

Etiquette and code of honour are in fact rarely respcted and enforced, though the warriors-castes like to pretend they do.

For the Bushido, loyalty was I'd say much more pronounced, this and the whole seppuku thing which enforced the idea that your life and death was your lord's. You didn't belong to yourself and even suicide was codified and couldn't be done without your lords's approval. So I'd say the samurai was suppose to be a much more servile than knights.

>> No.38766114

>>38766066
>So I'd say the samurai was suppose to be a much more servile than knights.

Agreed, tho ofc the exemplar of knighthood was to die alongside your liege, like the Paladins. Warrior codes are primarily about making you a better soldier, it's peaceful people like poets who make more of them than they originally were.

>> No.38766257

>>38766114
To me there always was "war habits", but those weren't enforced and regulated, people were just "expected" to do so... until they didn't. Like in the Middle-Ages, killing nobles who yielded was quite a bit no-no... and then Agincourt prove that was merely circonstancial.
European nobility was a somehow fairly unified universe, were high families knew each other all around europe, so "fair-play" was expected between those, but then, if shit happenned in a battle, what are you gonna do ? How are you gonna enforce some none-written rules ? You didn't, you went along.

Examples are a thing, but they are rarely followed by real people.

Same thing for samurais who were quite adept of political assassinations and chronical backstabbing, far away of the "honorable japanese warrior" usually portrayed.

(I apologize for my potentially terrible english, it isn't my native language and frankly, I don't bother making tremendous effort to correct it).

>> No.38766359

>>38766257
>To me there always was "war habits", but those weren't enforced and regulated, people were just "expected" to do so... until they didn't. Like in the Middle-Ages, killing nobles who yielded was quite a bit no-no... and then Agincourt prove that was merely circonstancial.

This is the difference between a warrior code and the romance of its re-invention by poets. A warrior's code teachs a warrior the best way to be a warrior. You don;t kill surrendering nobles partly because it's rude, but mostly because you can ransom them, and setting a precedent of taking prisoners rather than killing gives you a decent chance of surviving being defeated in battle at some later date. It's purely a pragmatic rule, one that as you say was freely ignored when that would be advantageous.

It's the poets who make these broad and general guidelines and the cult of soldiery that accompanies them and turns them into epic tales and eternal codes of morality and probity. I very much suspect that if you strip away the later myths and stories, nearly all warrior groups worldwide have the same set of core "values", centred around loyalty, duty, physical bravery and pragmatism.

>> No.38766502

>>38766359
I'd say it's more to do with peacetime "warriors" than poets... If you're part of the warrior cast who is jobless (during the Edo era for instance), you have no time for war but a lot to write history about how your ancestor were, and for sure you're going to write that they were proud and honorable and everything, that they followed the code you're trying to put up right now. You're writing war tradition in a modernized peaceful context. Poets only say what the power wants them to say, and if it's romantism about former warriors, well... here it goes !

One of the key thing to me was first and foremost, warrior castes are interested in lands and money, not loyalty and ethics, they didn't get to the top to be servile peoples but to make mad dosh ! Loyalty and pragmatism are a mean to an end, not an end by themselves.

Of course you have people like some Templars or Godefroy de Bouillon who appeared to be genuinely not here for the earthly interests, but they were really few of them.

>> No.38766578
File: 77 KB, 400x435, kibizashi2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38766578

>>38766257
>To me there always was "war habits", but those weren't enforced and regulated, people were just "expected" to do so...
Yes, there is always a social and cultural context to these things.
>killing nobles who yielded was quite a bit no-no

That wasn't where the money lay at least. Ransoming a nobleman could make someone very rich in a hurry.

>and then Agincourt prove that was merely circonstancial.

The shift to tight polearm formations in general was bad news for the ransom system, no room in the formation to take care of prisoners, and the cohesion simpyl must not be disturbed no matter what.

Not really any room to care for your own wounded either. Battles got nastier.

>> No.38766616

>>38766502
>I'd say it's more to do with peacetime "warriors" than poets

Warriors have always been the main funders of the arts, so their exploits tend to be what the poets write about. But the poets themselves are not always warriors, as with the troubadours of Aquitaine.
>Loyalty and pragmatism are a mean to an end, not an end by themselves.

Yes and no, a disloyal, cowardly or treacherous warrior has effectively ended his own career. No-one will want to fight alongside such a man, so unless he enriches himself by betraying his comrades, he's going to have to look for another source income. They were presented as absolute ideals to aspire to in part because it's in everyone else's interest that you be loyal and brave in battle, but also because its important for your own success, too.

>> No.38766682

>>38766066
>the samurai was suppose to be a much more servile than knights.

Since "samurai" closely translates to "one who serves the personage of lords / nobles" or "personal attendant of nobility", that's a pretty safe bet.

>> No.38766695

>>38766578
>The shift to tight polearm formations in general was bad news for the ransom system
This and the steady end of the feudal system in the western europe I'd say. Plus when your army is made by an increasing number of range and firing troops, you can't really expect to make prisoners.

I would otherwise disagree with the wounded, they could be dragged (slowly) to the rear by the chain of people, as it was down in the ancient Greece phalanx. But yeah, artillery and firearms made battles nastier.

>> No.38766720

>>38766682
>The word knight, from Old English cniht ("boy" or "servant"),[5] is a cognate of the German word Knecht ("servant, bondsman").[6]

Your move, weeab.

>> No.38766721

>>38766682
Indeed... but then, "Knight" translates to "servant" so it doesn't resolve the contest of who was the most servile between the samurai and the knight.

>> No.38766866
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38766866

>> No.38766878
File: 359 KB, 1024x773, 14795988248_64cdf0651b_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
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>> No.38766899
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38766899

>> No.38766915
File: 232 KB, 999x786, Satsuma-samurai-during-boshin-war-period.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38766915

Famous one but nice one so...

>> No.38766931
File: 89 KB, 664x1000, VAN-CHA-07.14-BRE-SAM-011.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38766931

>> No.38766972
File: 409 KB, 505x970, 11256635486.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38766972

Eugène Collache, one of the very first recorded weeaboo.

>> No.38766982

>>38766616
>Yes and no, a disloyal, cowardly or treacherous warrior has effectively ended his own career. No-one will want to fight alongside such a man, so unless he enriches himself by betraying his comrades, he's going to have to look for another source income. They were presented as absolute ideals to aspire to in part because it's in everyone else's interest that you be loyal and brave in battle, but also because its important for your own success, too.

You are right. Think about it. The Knights of the Round Table, the Water Margin, Charlemagne's Paladins and Sanada's Ten Braves are all romanticized warrior brotherhoods. There are very few post-classical pre-modern heroic tales about warriors that are not a member of a warrior brotherhood.

>> No.38767017

>>38766982
>There are very few post-classical pre-modern heroic tales about warriors that are not a member of a warrior brotherhood.

Siegfried, maybe? Cuchullain, but tho his stories weren't written until later, they date from around the time of Jesus.

>> No.38767050

>>38766972

To be fair, you'd be enthusiastic about Japanese culture, too, if you went from nearly dying on a hellhole of a merchant ship to the local ruler giving you the equivalent of a barony. Shit, I'd be a Ouiabeaux if Napoleon handed me a chunk of Alsace.

>> No.38767253
File: 186 KB, 808x1024, Ken-sama, the early years.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38767253

>>38766972

>> No.38767383

>>38765623
That picture reminds me of a very similar situation happening in feudal Japan, sometime during the warring states period. Would help if I remembered the names of the people involved, but I don't.

Anyway, some lord had his army destroyed by the enemy, who were now marching towards his castle. Wanting to die with honour rather than being taken captive, he commanded his samurai to hold off the enemy untill he finished committing seppeku (which is a pretty long process when done by the book). So the samurai goes off to hold back the entire enemy army, because he was one of those samurai that took the whole bushido stuff veyr seriously. Luckily for him, the only way to the caste is through a narrow bridge, so he could just hold the brige, which was wide enough for maybe three people to walk side by side and slash at anybody who got within sword reach. He managed to kill several enemy soldiers before the enemy commander ordered his men to just shoot the guy. They mut've fired hundreds of arrows at his general direction, yet he was still standing there. Eventually they worked up the courage to approach him, and found out he had actually died from the initial volley, but had propped himself up so that he'd die standing. At that time his lord had succesfully taken his own life.

>> No.38767484

>>38767383

Incident at Honno-ji?

>> No.38767491

>>38767017
Siegfried's story before Wagner is pretty much a kingdom founding tale. Only once the Kingdom/Empire is founded and stable do the warrior brotherhoods form.

>>38767383
Sounds a bit like Cuchullian's death.

>> No.38767849

>>38767491
>Only once the Kingdom/Empire is founded and stable do the warrior brotherhoods form.

"Lone Wolf" heroes are pretty rare, and as you say usually "culture heroes" who are invoked to explain very old, pre-literate, traditions and stories. Even in the age of Siegfried and Cuchullain, most heroes were part of a band of some kind.

>> No.38768877

>>38767383 Benkei is the samurai's name

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