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/tg/ - Traditional Games

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[ERROR] No.38036097 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Is a spear the most interesting weapon you can use as a martial class?

>> No.38036132

Interesting how?
Versatility of maneuvers?
Weapon design?

>> No.38036142


>> No.38036150

I'd say there's a few other pole weapons that are equal, but generally yes spears are amazing and anyone who doesn't think so is a moron swordfag

>> No.38036153

A spear is quite literally a pleb weapon.

>> No.38036158

Honestly I find unarmed combat to be the most interesting personally. Its got options. A lot of systems have really fun grappling mechanics.

Also improvised weapons are fun.

You can tell I base my opinions off dwarf fortress.

>> No.38036174

I prefer bows. It's like a device that launches mini spears at people.

>> No.38036180


Also candles dripping hot wax

>> No.38036191


>> No.38036195

Is a child the most interesting thing you could think to post?

>> No.38036204

Metal fans are by far my favorite as far as interesting goes.

>> No.38036218

You mean people are making OPs with pictures of children clearly meant as softcore pedoporn with a brief line of text making it quasi relevant?

Seriously though, is this one guy with nothing to do with his time or a dedicated effort by multiple anons?

>> No.38036234


>> No.38036249

It's edgelords and cancer of anime culture in general.

TG aint what it used to be.

>> No.38036262

jesus christ fuck off back to tumblr and let the people who understand board culture get on

>> No.38036270

This. Nothing is as cool to me as just a dude fighting armed enemies with just his fists and some grappling techniques.

>> No.38036272

Board culture involves posting pictures of children clearly meant as softcore pedoporn with a brief line of text making it quasi relevant?

I mean, its a thing that happens pretty much all the time. I guess that makes it qualify? I'm not sure that makes it a positive thing though.

>> No.38036278

Halbert scrub tier. Power stance greatswords all day every day.

>> No.38036282

I had to reread this like five times thinking to myself "wat" before I knew what you were talking about. I am an idiot.

>> No.38036283

Unarmed and grappling can all be done by a spear user; in fact it's almost expected in the heat of battle that you'll be forced to resort to it eventually

Which would you rather be, a stylish as fuck dude who can drop his spear to slap a bitch, or a guy with no weapon to use against a dragon flying by and breathing fire all over his face

>> No.38036285

Not everyone thinks it's a positive thing.

Like someone else mentioned earlier, there are alot of people who think anime culture is a "cancer". Alot of the time I'm tempted to agree with them, but then I remeber that western culture (as far as TGs go) mainly involves busty bar wenches and women in chainmail bikinis.

>> No.38036291

Honestly the latter. Cracking your knuckles and leaping on the dragon's neck as it swoops past breathing fire seems more awesome to me.

Speardudes historically would usually have a shortsword or a long knife for when their range gets closed.

>> No.38036302

I'm not particularly fussed in any direction, and I have no issue with anime. I just dont understand why its always a child, usually in a dress that's being blown in the wind or something similar and a single line of text vaguely relating to the image and vaguely relating to /tg/.

As a trend it seems to imply that there is one guy who spends every free moment on /tg/ waiting an hour or so before posting another thread in the precise same format. With a big folder of softcore almost-pedoporn. It's odd.

>> No.38036306

Based Hilde.

>> No.38036327

>I just dont understand why its always a child, usually in a dress that's being blown in the wind or something similar
Because that's what 95% of sfw touhou art is, and people love touhou for some reason. I mean the games are pretty fun, but I never got the appeal of the weird Expanded Universe thing it has going on.

>> No.38036338

I'm not sure how odd it is: He's a pedophile. He's got a mental illness which prevents him from leaving the house. Probably best that way, so that he hopefully doesn't have access to children. He's got nothing at all to do but desperately seek validation by displaying his illness all over the internet. The reason it takes him an hour to post again is that he's doing the same thing on nine other sites at once and it takes him that long to get back here each time.

>> No.38036351

I quite like touhou, most characters dont look like children I'd say. Cirno and the Scarlet Sisters do, the former I'm pretty sure IS a kid and the latter are vampires. Most depictions of almost everyone else look 'adult' (in that weird anime way where they're sorta vaguely aged but not a kid).

>> No.38036374

Like I said, not too huge on touhou. I'll take your word for it, but most of the art looks pretty childy, or at the very most teen, but that's just me.

>> No.38036466

Don't they?
Is it just the popular ones that are children then?
All the touhou I see are kids in hats.
Like this one

>> No.38036471

A spear is far from the most interesting weapon, but it might be one of the most usefull.
Reach is everything.

>> No.38036480

She's got five centuries under those bloomers. She owns a mansion, and servants.

She is not a child, and it's rather insulting to call her as such.

>> No.38036495

Throated hooking shield

>> No.38036512

That's one of the aforementioned vampires.

Most of them do look really young though imo.

>> No.38036537

Seems kinda magical girl like to be honest.

>> No.38036543

>ITT, anime haters obsessing about "pedophilia"

Freud much?

>> No.38036558

That's your interpretation of the thread?

I'd call that inaccurate at the very least.

>> No.38036565

>no dad you don't understand
>she isn't a kid
>she's a 500 year old Vampyr

>> No.38036583

lol too fucking realistic

>> No.38036585

or in the case of monster hunter full sized spears at monsters

>> No.38036588

its a child holding a spear you idiot

>> No.38036602

That's obvious, bru.

I guess the obvious devil's advocate point that springs to mind is; what if it was an anthro wolf chick holding a spear? Perhaps a sonic the hedgehog fancharacter holding a spear?

'It's relevant but' seems reasonable.

>> No.38036615

are you sure your not confusing most interesting weapon with favourite sexual item anon

>> No.38036623

Wow, somebody's awfully defensive. Something to hide?

>> No.38036660

I don't think he's hiding it, I think he's posting it as the OP pic in every thread he starts.

>> No.38036690

To be fair, spears are pretty bitchin'.
Touhous aren't very martial, however.

>> No.38036700

Especially that one, who is canonically shit with that spear and only has it for ceremonial reasons.

>> No.38036705

If you're going to polearm, at least use a genuinely interesting polearm.
Spear is just a metal-tipped version of the pointy stick, and that's hardly worth using the term "interesting" on.

>> No.38036814

There is a dearth of touhous canonically armed with polearms. Of which a majority (3/5) would get shouted at by people who think pictures of children are automatically pedophilia.

>> No.38036942

You're still way ahead of me. I don't get it.

>> No.38036969

Take the phrase "metal fan" literally.
As in, the item known as a fan, that is metal.

>> No.38037021

>yet another thread made for the sole purpose of having an excuse to post little girls on /tg/
Anyhow, when it comes to interesting, it's almost never about which weapon you use but instead how you use it.

>> No.38037180

Sorry we fucked you up from outside your greatsword's reach, faggot
Mina a best
>[Cirno] I'm pretty sure IS a kid
Cirno's a fairy she's just stupid

>> No.38037210

You know, like a fan made of metal.

>> No.38037253

i guess when people just dont poke with it


>> No.38037352

Have you ever watched an actual spear fight compared to an actual sword fight? For the sake of this discussion, let's discount how they're normally used since they're both normally used as brutal hacking weapons on downed opponents.

There's much more exchange and skill to a sword fight.

>> No.38037436

In this thread people come up with /pol/ teir loli conspiracies.
>one person is posting all these loli images
Waah, Waah my board on 4-chins has anime, and anime culture on it.
Fuck guys really? Is the fact that people post Loli images honestly getting you up in arms?

>> No.38037531

The polarms versality and reach are its best traits. It is interesting depending on how you use it. Any retard can poke someone with a stick.

I think a quarterstaff with interchangeable attachments would be best

>> No.38037569

No, that would imply that they get together and discuss when they're going to post lolis or collaborate in any significant way. What is actually happening is that they are all independently planning to post lolis and every time one of them does it, the rest jump on the opportunity.

>> No.38037757

I prefer firearms personally.

Gunkata is classy as fuck and allows me not to dirty myself with my opponent's blood.

>> No.38037838

But you would get plenty of blood on you, shooting people at point blank range.

>> No.38037929

She's a chuuni, and other characters concur with this as well.

>> No.38037957

Actually, blood doesn't spray from gunwounds most of the time, especially on the front and with fully clothed people.
Now, if he was to go on a rampage in a martial artists naturist camp...

>> No.38037970

>child molester defense force ITT
yeah that figures. not only are these cancerous kiddie diddlers the worst people in history, but they're also the worst posters in history.

>> No.38037985

>jesus christ fuck off back to tumblr and let the people who understand board culture get on

If people actually consider that "board culture" then /tg/ is worse than it has ever been.

>> No.38038007

You two can then happily get the fuck out if you feel so out of place then.

>> No.38038023


>> No.38038162

>there is one guy browsing /tg/ for hours on end
>searching up and down the catalog, looking for loli
>those wholesome 2D creatures
>just so he can talk about pedophiles

Is it that hard to talk about weapons and martials, man. Just a small break from casters, that's all I wanted.

>> No.38038195

>one guy
You sad, delusional little creature.

>> No.38038210


You should know by now that any loli image invites this shit.

>> No.38038226

Autism magnets are not responsible for autists.

>> No.38038267

I don't even get what the problem is either, OP's pic isn't suggestive in the least. It's like complaining about having little girls involved in things in general.

Personally, I've always been edgy enough to consider a Scythe a cool melee weapon but that's because Zasalamel was badass in SC3.

>> No.38038286

>It's like complaining about having little girls involved in things in general.
You say that as if it's an unreasonable complaint. As if anyone who isn't a creep actually WANTS little girls involved in anything to do with them.

>> No.38038295

>random gust blowing the dress up to reveal her bloomers
>not suggestive

>> No.38038307

Strawman. Its not a valid complain, any anon could say the opposite with equal merit "those that don't want little girls must be pedophiles not wanting to be triggered".

>> No.38038328


Good taste.

>> No.38038339

>invalid complaint
Little girls are weak, stupid, annoying and not even fun to mow down like grass. How's that for a valid complaint?

>> No.38038358

Everyone talking about pedophilia in regards to OP is stupid.
This fictional drawing depicts a character that is 500 years old.
If anything she would be the pedophile for dealing with mortals not even 1/20th her age.

>> No.38038360

I'm fairly certain that Soul Calibur is responsible for most of my weapon preferences.

I have always fucking loved chakrams and things like that because of that chick with the massive one in them.

>> No.38038398

Because that likewise is generalization, on a board where everyone plays the unique special snowflake whom bucks the trends of society to go adventuring/serve an inquisitor/lead armies/become a demigod/etc.

Being a little girl doesn't matter if you're a 470 year old vampire, a zombie cyborg, an exalt or a psyker of untold power.

>> No.38038415 [DELETED] 

>ITT pedshit tries his best

>> No.38038420

Did people already forget Eberron's loli pope

>> No.38038424

>no argument
>must deflect with humor to pretend he gets the last word

>> No.38038434

But that's wrong you sperm chucker.
>Barnabas tier
Super mech railguns to bolt down gods and peasants alike. Or low orbit ships.
>MechaSatan tier
Soul pillars (AKA all weapons at once)
>Nice tier
Rapier, Cancer, Puppets, dagger/stilleto and tanto.
>Sick balla tier
YoYo, oversized swords, cape weapons, throwing spam, shadows
low damage high speed low str polearms, capricorns.
>I did it for the coolio points
Ophiucus, taurus, the other weapons of legend
>I am a weapon master
Artifact fuckery.
The rest

Try to prove me wrong.
You can't.

>> No.38038453

Oh yeah, this bitch.

Her style was pretty cool honestly, but she was just such a bitch the entire game that I couldn't get behind the hula-hoop of doom. She even had that lolrandom kind of thing going for her.

>> No.38038464

>rampage in a martial artists naturist camp
That sounds like the most awesome game ever.

>> No.38038473


Well you see she's got one massive edge.

>> No.38038484

She was a massive bitch but I remember really liking her play-style, and ever since then I've loved any weapon like that.

>> No.38038485

>Clear gfur bait
You'd have an easy shitstorm

>> No.38038495

>vampire, zombie cyborg, exalt, powerful psyker
All of which would be improved by not being a little girl. Little girls are among the lowest of human forms, only above toddlers and infants.

>> No.38038519

>my opinion is absolute fact!

>> No.38038520

Spears are pretty cool, don't know why so many people hate them.
Maybe being too good for a peasant's weapon.

Interesting stuff is the weird stuff, and watching the character actually use something bizarre, already posted is Tira and her blade hoop. Her moveset is fun as hell.

Personally never been a fan of scythes.

>> No.38038544

We know, your fictional characters are the only fictional characters allowed.

>> No.38038562


>I'm a pedophile! AND PROUD!

>> No.38038574

>all of which would be improved by not being a little girl

I don't have enough Bill Nye for how wrong you are. Apex Twins are the best thing about 40k.

>> No.38038575

>again, no argument
Your deflection is amusing, but pointless. You simply tout your opinion as superior to all others without merit.

>> No.38038576

>All of which would be improved by not being a little girl.

No, not really. Some might some not, its the execution that matters eitherway.

>Little girls are among the lowest of human forms, only above toddlers and infants.

Irrelevant for tabletop and entertainment media.

You seem somewhat engulfed by misandry. Everything okay?

>> No.38038580

>unable to play fireman
>no potential to write their names in the snow in the future
>no interest in motorized vehicles that are not pink
>likes tea parties
>likes the color pink
>could become a teen mother someday
>is likely going to burn a hole in daddy's pocket what with her education that she'll never use and her expensive wedding that really didn't need to be expensive
>wasn't what daddy wanted
>cries more often than her male counterparts
Lowest form of human life.

>> No.38038588

>never been a big fan of scythes
war scythes or threshing scythes?
because war scythes are just another standard polearm
pic not a scythe

>> No.38038598

Nah, I only hate the little ones. Women are on average equal to men, if different.

>> No.38038601

>doesn't even consider the merits and tactics of the varied styles of shields
Do you even scutum?

>> No.38038618

>More generalization.

>> No.38038620

>Sorry we fucked you up from outside your greatsword's reach, faggot
I'm sorry, you seem to think I don't have as much range as you, and enough poise to eat whatever you throw at me. Sure, my attacks only do like 3/4 damage at that range, but it's still enough to chop off most of your health bar.

>> No.38038628

People say scythes are an impractical weapon.

I wish I could get my hands on one. I'm sure I can figure out a way to make it workable. Maybe not for wide scale warfare but one on one type deals.

>> No.38038630

Good god, man. Are you alright?

Also fuck you for hating tea parties, that's some bullshit right there.

>> No.38038634

Sounds like you're a burnt out father, god forbid. You should have done a better job.

>> No.38038639

Disprove me, then. I have 2 younger sisters, and can assure you my analysis is not without evidence.

>> No.38038645

It's always the farm implement, never the proper war scythe.
Most people forget they even exist.

>> No.38038653

He's a man, of course he's alright. Unless he's a pussy little bitch who needs to man the fuck up and grow some balls.

>> No.38038655

Older brother. The shit I had to put up with....

>> No.38038666


The way to make them work for combat is simply rotate the blade 90 degrees upward.
Then they're just a kinda awkward polearm with slashing and stabbing capability.
A standard reaping scythe with its blade facing to the side won't do much better than a bludgeon, but you can still swing it as a really long pick if you're desperate.

>> No.38038676

A scythe straight from the barn is an impossible to use weapon. Utterly impractical in every way.
The most basic alteration is to turn the blade around.
Later models of war scythes changed the shape of the haft and blade both significantly, making them quite different from the tool.

>> No.38038689

And how many of your sisters are vampires, adventurers, psykers, androids and liches?

I have sisters too but dipshit real life =/= fantasy. If you don't get this you are literally sick.

>> No.38038705

Irrelevant. Everything you list acts almost entirely human.

>> No.38038731

Then your games are pretty shit if everything is the same.

Not to mention every human acts the same amarite? In this case a victorian england little girl = african zulu tribeswoman.

You not only have no argument but you are ACTUALLY dumb.

>> No.38038744


>> No.38038748


Vampires and liches can be significantly older, so their behavior can be "almost entirely human" of any age.
Adventurers are typically eccentric, so acting like an adult from a young age is possible too, or not even behaving like a human at all. That all depends on the player, really.
Androids are not human and only behave in the way they are designed.

>> No.38038774

the fuck is going on here

>> No.38038782

>impossible to use weapon
you're not trying hard enough, there were fencing manuals dedicated to how to use a threshing scythe as a weapon

>> No.38038786

One anon is obsessed with pedophilia and children and has gripes over them, other people lecture him while discussing polearms.

>> No.38038796

That's not all women. Many of them are like that yes, for their base nature leads them down that path (men are led down another path by a different but similar animal too), but that's an overarching generalization.

People bitch about the symptoms and refuse to admit the cause. Cause is, you have a base animal nature that, if not realized and actively opposed by the conscious mind, will lead you down a largely predetermined path that sucks for everyone involved long term (though short term it may be quite nice). It's the way things are, tis pointless to bitch about it. What isn't pointless is realizing the truth and working from there.

It may not be practical, but damn near anything can function as a weapon when pressed into it. Scythe still has a sharp edge, a point, some reach, and a curve. All can be leveraged into actionable service. Though if you're going for CQC with it the "reach" aspect can work against you. Break it in half and use it a one hander, it'll do better there.

>> No.38038888

Someone posted touhou art for a weapon style discussion (because touhou art has been rigorously categorized along every possible line making it trivial to find a relevant pic for any possible thread that doesn't intrinsically exclude girls), and some people decided to bitch about it instead of engaging with the thread about weapon styles. Some people chose to engage with them, and things escalated naturally.

I'd say in a wuxia game you've got the right of it, OP. Spears are greatly versatile and have immense support for doing the craziest shit. Don't really like them in D&D-alikes, though. They're mostly just weapons with bad stats.

>> No.38038894

did ya know fictional characters don't actually have an age. . .cuz ya know. . . fiction

>> No.38038914

Hardly animal nature that some girls are like that. Its pure upbringing. Girls get bought pink clothes, boys get blue, girls get dolls to play with, boys get cars, girls are forbidden from wrestling and being violent, boys are pretty much encouraged (say by sending them to karate class or football), girls are told to watch Twilight and music videos, boys play video games and jerk off to porn. And soforth.

>> No.38038937

No, see let me explain.
They don't because I'm a pedo and I just wnat to fuck little girls not take care of actual little girls.

>> No.38038968

Now you're just being sad.

>> No.38038996

shields are NOTHING but clutch for weaponmasters who just take the hit.
I bet you even wear a cavalry spear and charge down wizards with your winged steed.

>> No.38039030

You either play D&D, or video games.
Anyone using a shield to just "take the hit" is a peasant levy and not worth considering.

>> No.38039075

>Capricorn, Barnabas, Ophiucus, Tanto, generally martial weapons, weaponmaster.
Anon you have brain damage. Serious brain damage.

The game was anima, "take the hit" is a mechanic that applies -80 to your defense score and if yo uget hit you can still attack, weapon masters tend to have huge armor and HP, but since they have huge armor they have dogshit initiative, hence going last and eating loads of hits, shields give from 15 to 30 bonus to your defense roll (and some ini penalty but when you're like -80 or so -30 more doesn't hurt)

>> No.38039108

Depends on the system and what it allows you to do, but IRL it's the most boring hand-to-hand and requires the least skill.

>Stab at place where stabbing will occur, or to keep a fucker with a sword away from you
>Stabbing continues
>Someone gets inside your reach, try to block their shit with your stick and not die

It is a great weapon because reach is the shit amongst melee weapons, but interesting in its use? Not so much.

>> No.38039124

>boys get blue

I've always been left puzzled by this. Why is blue for boys? It's such feminine colour? Hell, the Virgin Mary is always wearing blue! I grew up thinking that red was for boys, you know, the colour of Mars and war and shit...

>> No.38039147

Stupid modern cultural thing. Not much to do about it, except not follow the convention.

>> No.38039150

Fuck if I know, its just how it is. Blue is also the colour of the navy though.

>> No.38039157

Because parents don't want to get their kids "exciting" colors. The "red" girls get is extremely light (pink). The blue boys get is, unsurprisingly, extremely light (powder and baby blue).

>> No.38039188

Hmm... Good question, seeing as there're a few different sides one could take with this.

Firstly, there're the complex, unwieldy weapons like the Scythe and Spiked-Chain. They're a little on the weeaboo side, and take a fair bit of explaining as to how the hell you got trained in them, so they're probably not the best.

Next up are weapons that add an additional dimension to combat. The Fold Sickle is a great example, letting you extend your weapon to catch retreating opponents by surprise. Albeit, hidden features such as this are difficult to forge.

Next are ones that counter your opponent's styles. Placing a simple blade-breaker on the edge of a buckler is a great way of ruining your opponent's day.

Finally, there're side-weapons. Usually thrown weapons that can act as an improvised melee weapon if needed. Throwing knives and light hammers are great in these cases, especially if you enchant either to return to you.

I'd recommend a simple weapon with an added shape to give you another way of using it. Light hammers are great close up and great at a range. A sword with a tiny hook at the end gashes into people and disarms them and so on.

>> No.38039220


I've theorized something similar. Blue is a very serene colour, hence parents try to cover every article of visible clothing with it in hopes of calming down hyper active boys.

Have no idea what pink does to girls though...

>> No.38039222

>spiked chain


I'm done for the day.

>> No.38039225

It did used to be blue for girls and pink for boys. Blue was considered a calm, passive, feminine color, while pink, as a variant of red, was considered bold and aggressive and masculine. Then it got swapped for some reason and we started taking it as gospel.

>> No.38039246

The blue/pink thing got reversed at some point. I'm not sure that pink was masculine, but blue was the traditionally feminine color for a long time.

Of course all these aesthetic and artistic things change. In old greek art men had lobster red skin, while women were marble white.

>> No.38039249

>Your point is irrelevant
>W-w-w-w-well you're stupid and boring!
Really classy.
>The fundamental human psyche varies widely from culture to culture
You're hilarious.

>> No.38039251

No, a guitar is

>> No.38039259

I hope in a future we get some wacky color changes like pistacho for girls and fucsia for boys or something like that.

>> No.38039284


>Implying there are going to be genders in the future.

>> No.38039286

It and other cultural artifacts might start changing less post-internet for the same reasons that language stabilized post-widespread-literacy.

>> No.38039296

>this is what tumblr actually believes

>> No.38039301

>Really classy.

Its my personal opinion that you are pretty shitty if you present people the same despite race, state of being, age, gender, setting and era all being different.

>The fundamental human psyche varies widely from culture to culture

Yes, but it doesn't matter because ingrained gender behaviour is not a fundamental, it is a result of upbringing hence wildly different cultural norms existing for genders and ages all across civilizations on the globe since the dawn of fucking time.

>> No.38039313

>In old greek art men had lobster red skin, while women were marble white.

I guess this has more to do with the clothing habits of ancient greeks. Men were traditionally naked in the gymnasium, while in Athens for example, respectable women had to wear clothing covering their entire body, basically like a niqab.

>> No.38039321

Excellent taste.

>> No.38039324

And yet, every culture in world tells men to bring home the bacon and women to keep an eye on the kids.

Society was shaped by biology, anon.

>> No.38039327

>implying there are going to be material forms in the future

It's just going to be a brain-equivalent sitting inside a utility fog, doing whatever it wants to think about.

>> No.38039347


No you're going to die when the oil runs out. Just like everyone in the youtube generation.

>> No.38039363

>And yet, every culture in world tells men to bring home the bacon and women to keep an eye on the kids.

And yet we currently live in an age where in most civilized countries nothing stops women from having jobs or fathers from caring for their children.

>> No.38039364

>implying oil is necessary for the future

>> No.38039371


>> No.38039390

Grorious naginata infinitely superior to filthy gaijin glaive, it was folded one trillion times by master naginata smiths. Even in WW2 US troops targeted officers wielding the noble naginata because they feared their destructive might etc.

>> No.38039415


You are thinking of swordstaffs anon

>> No.38039418

That trend occurred half an evolutionary blink ago, and it's not a terribly popular trend. Then there's all the traits that haven't changed; for instance, no matter what the status symbols of her society are, she will almost always be attracted to men with them.

>> No.38039421


Actually we're still very much living in a world where men are seen as expendable and women are valued.

The problem now is all the benefits men got for *being* expendable cannon fodder are being cut or given to women.

I hope you're not going to suggest women will willingly shackle themselves with the responsibilities, obligations and other legal hoopla that are currently male-dominated/exclusive.

For example, conscription.

>> No.38039480


I vote any polearm with three parts for most interesting: Choppy/smashy part, hooky part, stabby part.

Everything you can do with a spear, and much more! (Though likely to be heavier and a little more cumbersome.)

Making spear usage appear interesting usually involves choreographing a lot of unnecessary spinning around, and using it as a quarterstaff at times, which is theoretically possible but wasn't realistic in historical combat. Musashi beating swordsmen with a staff is a legend because it's like fuckimpossible -- by the time they got close enough you couldn't spear-stab them, it'd be all you could do to try to block, and you'd probably fail.

Which of course is why you hopefully have two bros next to you and a few behind if you're using a spear/pike.

>> No.38039503

Doesn't disapprove of it.

>Actually we're still very much living in a world where men are seen as expendable and women are valued.
>The problem now is all the benefits men got for *being* expendable cannon fodder are being cut or given to women.

The only problem is the SJW crowd screaming for anyone's rights to be removed because it offends them. I have no problem with women firefighters, industrial alpinists and miners if they're alright with ruining themselves.

That said, we are still discussing fantasy, none of these actually matter in the first place despite pedophile anon's idiocy of generalizing all female characters after his sisters.

I'm also pretty sure a dragonborn village inside a vulcano with basic gunpowder tech and magic has different social and gender dynamics then modern human western civilization.

>> No.38039519

>because it's like fuckimpossible

Not really, considered the tactics he used.

>> No.38039549


>implying nuclear power supplies more than 336,000 megawatts out of the global demand of 15 terawatts and people are afraid of radiation because of tidal charts and because the russians had the worst possible accident happen to them with a poorly designed reactor.

Yeah, no. Everyone is ignoring fission for the stillborn dream of fusion. Breakeven fusion outside of stars is just as impossible as FTL.

>> No.38039551

>men try to get resources and status symbols
>women try to get mates with lots of resources and status symbols
>someone is the top dog
>he almost certainly has advisers

The differences are only skin deep.

>> No.38039617


Maybe LFTR technology will get looked at again someday as it's demonstrably less wasteful than standard light water reactors so there's less radioactive boogeymen.

And I hold out hopes for stability now that solar thermal is also gaining momentum.

>> No.38039622

>by the time they got close enough you couldn't spear-stab them, it'd be all you could do to try to block, and you'd probably fail.

Do you even know how you apply force to strikes with a staff?

>> No.38039626

That shit usually depended on class as much as gender. Gender roles diverged more in the nobility and less the further down you went in most societies. They were also linked with the presence and survival rates of pro soldiers, and the population density of a society. To give examples, matrilineality was the rule with hunter gatherers because male hunters had poor survival rates. Meanwhile patrilineal systems were a big deal in the medieval aristocracy because of the relationship between political power and force of arms. In the same world, though, your average peasant family had much less division between men's work and women's work. Homemaking and agriculture were part and parcel of the same profession. Divisions of labor were probably even less pronounced with the semi-permanent slash-and-burn farms that preceded the manorial system in many places.

Even in the US, the division between men's and women's became pronounced and started looking "traditional" in response to car culture, suburbs, and an economic boom. Women in factory work was pretty normal before then, though they were still payed less.

Men's and women's roles are highly dependent on society. It's less wishy washy culture bullshit than anybody's really comfortable with, but it's way the fuck less monolithic than evo-psych guys want to make it.

>> No.38039654


That seems like it just takes up too much space. what's the peak output of that joint, assuming a sunny day?

The good thing about nuclear power is that people already live near rivers instinctually. You could have the heated water sent to people's homes.

>> No.38039656


Getting the time to strike as someone is relentlessly trying to fuck your shit with a sword is more the problem.

(And, considering formations, having the room to wield it in quarterstaff fashion is another thing. Also most spears were longer than that and not so well balanced for obvious reasons ... but in RPG combat this may or may not be a thing.)

>> No.38039686

Just dropping in to say that Remilia is best 2hu.

>> No.38039699


You sound like someone who knows what they're talking about.

What is your opinion on certain pushes by countries such as Sweden to remove the idea of gender entirely? For example, public schools where the kids all wear identical clothing and are called "Friends" instead of "him/her/boy/girl."

>> No.38039722

>Not students or "kids"

>> No.38039731

That level of friendliness isn't at all creepy or suspicious....

>> No.38039734


Concentrated solar thermal plants usually only operate in the 100-300 MW range, but they operate at all hours. The largest reaches 392 MW production.
They operate best in deserts of course, but all you need is more mirrors to get sufficient heat even in antarctica.

>> No.38039737

Why mention musashi if you then proceed to talk about formations? Anyway, striking with a quarterstaff at close range relies on elbows and torso rotation, this requires minimal space and allows to deal a very fast and strong blow

>> No.38039748


"Comrade" and "citizen" + name also work. Well, they did for a while. But hey, may be worth another shot, and it could have been that society just wasn't ready for that much egalitarianism, or that it was instituted too abruptly.

>> No.38039779


>Remove the idea of gender entirely
>Because gender pronouns the child does not identify with might distress/mess up their upbringing

It's .3% of the population.

It's literally .3% of the population.

Why are we changing the fundamental ways our society operates for .3% of the population.


These are the same people that bitch about the "1%" calling the shots, oh my god.

>> No.38039786


But we're talking about trying to re-purpose a spear as a quarterstaff under emergency circumstances, which, if effective, would make it a very interesting weapon.

You're right that the Musashi reference probably wasn't all that relevant since obviously he was not using a spear, but it is a legendary feat for a reason, I guess was my meaning.

>> No.38039814

About the same as I feel about the Pledge of Allegiance. It's dumb, but probably won't change very much in the long run.

Odds are good that they already have population stability, work close to home, and don't rely heavily on pro soldiers if they've gotten to the point where that stuff's okay socially. If any of that shit changes, unisex uniforms won't stop a new set of roles from emerging to suit the situation.

>> No.38039828


I'm not coming down against or in favor, but I don't think it's *just* about accommodating trans/genderqueer people. It's also about dealing with gender discrimination since, obviously, it would reduce the level of prejudice associated with gender identity (men are strong and linear-thinking and for physical labor; women are clever and creative and for other types of work; etc. etc.) that are increasingly not serving society very well, and causing arguments like this.

>> No.38039854

You can't change or deny the inherent differences between the male and female brain; what you should be doing is educating people about bell curves.

>> No.38039860


It's amusing how these societies have swiftly growing immigrant populations based around highly regimented societies based on well-established gender roles.

It feels like there's going to be a point in the future when the unisex native population says, "do this" and the immigrants say, "no" and there's no way the natives can really enforce their special brand of Progressivism on them.

>> No.38039917

>Because gender pronouns the child does not identify with might distress/mess up their upbringing

Wasn't in the post you responded to.

Can you think of no other reason why school administrators would want to cut back on teenagers' displays of masculinity/femininity? Uniforms have been a thing for a while partly to prevent kids from being distracted by each other in pretty predictable ways.

Usually it fails, but it doesn't have to be because a tranny might exist somewhere.

>> No.38039923

When in formation the need to switch to a quarterstaff grip is none since it could be made impossible by a tight formation or the presence of a shield, not to mention that in most cases you'd have a secondary weapon for close combat anyway

>> No.38039928


Oh they pipe water through the thing they point the mirrors at? clever.

>The largest reaches 392 MW production.

That's not bad, about half of a single CANDU reactor's output, but not bad. A CANDU costs 420 million. Bruce, the happiest place on earth, has 8 of them. How much did the largest LTFR cost?

>> No.38039955


u w0t

quarterstaves are gripped the same way as a spear

>> No.38039996

Slash and burn farmers weren't replaced in this manner. They just settled down, with only slightly more gendered roles trickling down from the more rigid nobility. Odds are good the immigrants will fall into a similar routine if circumstances remain otherwise similar.

A 2nd or 3rd gen Mexican immigrant in the US looks very little like a native Mexican culturally. This isn't really exceptional to immigrant populations either. How much do we have in common with the folks that fought WWII?

>> No.38040051

Spears are pretty damn cool. They don't get nearly the love they deserve in most systems.

>> No.38040080

Spears with heads as big as their shafts, if not bigger.

>> No.38040093


LFTRs, to my knowledge, have only been experimental productions thus far, so only as much as the project grant was available. The most successful model, called MSRE, only operated for five years at 7.4 MW, and was little more than a proof-of-concept build.

Solar thermal plants (which are not related to LFTR technology, sorry for the confusion) usually run between $400 million and $750 million, but the 392 MW one ran up to $2.2 billion. Its expected output was 600 MW, I'm not sure as to why it didn't achieve that goal.
They're not the cheapest, but they also don't require anything more than the sun to keep being hot.

>Oh they pipe water through the thing they point the mirrors at? clever.

God damn, I know right? I'm kind of enthralled by their simplistic elegance. All those things are just mirrors on a rudimentary computer that keeps them turned towards the sun. (Called Heliostats.)
I understand it's easy to confuse them with photovoltaic panels at first glance, but they're way more simple.

>> No.38040199


It does seem really clever, but each mirror is motorized? fuck the maintenance schedule on something like that, especially in the desert.

You'd have a hard time putting it near cities because of how goddamned bright it is, unless you put it in a deep crater or put walls around it, but either would ruin a sensible budget.

I'm no sparky, but i thought you had to keep power plants near where the power is made or you'll suffer losses? That seems to make it a catch 22. Damn shame.

Hm, the technology might not be a bad alternative to nuclear sources for space craft within the inner solar system.

>> No.38040215

>Uniforms have been a thing for a while partly to prevent kids from being distracted by each other in pretty predictable ways.

Its not about sex, its about financial equality, the idea is that if every kid dresses the same, the rich kid in flashy tendy clothes is the same as the poor kid whom only has second hands. It never in the history of school uniforms worked.

Though I kind of like the idea of school uniforms to build a sense of school identity.

>> No.38040291

I know there were other reasons. That's why I said "partly."

>> No.38040303

No, you grip a quarterstaff in the middle, you grip a spear with a hand on the lower end to stab and control

>> No.38040390

>Implying girls don't also jerk off to porn

Dude, everyone loves sex. Hell, ain't you ever heard of fujoshi and yaoi? Girls love porn too they just don't wanna admit it.

Not truly shaped butt certainly influenced by it. Society is basically a revolt against the base nature. You are expected to repress and deny certain aspects of it in order to "make society work". You "want" a harem as a dude, and a girl wants to be taken care of by a dude and deep down doesn't much mind being in a harem. Both don't wanna work at this. Both want it handed to them on a platter. Well, society doesn't "work" that way. You either deal and put in the time, or you just sit there and keep praying for a pie in the sky. Or you just steal from others, and that works right up until it doesn't. Eventually, you run out of shit to steal. Then you either work or you starve, but by then you've already sent everyone back into the dark ages so life is gonna suck now more than ever.

Sadly, people have started to deny that there is a biological, subconscious element to their identities and rationalize those impulses away as they act on them. They demand the platter and steal in some way from those who have decided to work. This, naturally, cannot continue without society breaking down on a fundamental level. The smart people withdraw from the whole mess and the birth rate goes down the toilet as a result among other things.

Rome was awesome right up until it got sacked. Some saw it coming and moved out. Had they remained, they may have been able to fight off the barbarians. When they came knocking, only the base, vain, opulent asshats remained. All they knew how to do was live off the system. Everyone ended up worse off, because everyone but a small few had reverted to their base nature.

The few that didn't kept the books safe and waited for everyone to start acting like people instead of animals. The cycle will repeat until the lesson is learned.

>> No.38040451

>everyone loves sex
Not everyone, just all the people who aren't badly damaged psychologically.

>> No.38040523

It's one guy. Pay attention and you can stop him too. The trick is not get mad, because then he wins.

>> No.38040533


see also: indus valley civilization.

turns out being peaceful just invites someone to come and kick your shit in.

>> No.38040584

>society is a revolt against base nature
It is the base nature of humans to be social and live together in groups that work together for mutual benefit.

>> No.38040610


He should have said civilization. that has prerequisites like a surplus of food and whatnot.

>> No.38040649

Civilization is merely another form of living and working together, though admittedly one that is certainly more detached from our other base instincts. Point is, you can never really escape your own base nature.

>> No.38040706

Either take is oversimplifying it. The metagame determines what traits are strong or weak at any given moment. You adapt or you don't.

>> No.38040707

It's a fine balance really. What you need to be is violently non-violent. You don't want any trouble, but if trouble comes knocking you gotta be prepared and able to stab it in the face. When things break down people loot, they don't loot the places with a sign in front saying "looters will be shot". There's a lesson there methinks.

Other dudes had swords, indus valley dudes presumably had plowshares. Those who pound their swords into plowshares will end up plowing for those who kept their swords, as they say. What is best is to have both, so you're ready to stab the dude who only has a sword.

Tell that to nobility and their ilk. To them, everyone works for *their* benefit. Big difference, yet people fail to think hard on that.

It's a different mindset, most of us have a conscience, some don't. Those that don't expect those of us that do to bow down and grovel at their feet as we support their every whim. These tend to become the whole of the nobility over time. Man is his own worst enemy, because he thinks everyone is like him. You're generally right, but if you don't think that dark element is there (and most don't) you're setting yourself up for a complete fucking disaster.

>> No.38040791

Why can't DND into spears?

I mean, it isn't even hard.

War Spear
1d8 Versatile (1d10), Piercing

>> No.38040857

>Tell that to the nobility.
They're still contributing something (start up funds, overhead, management, military protection, land), even if they take more than their contributions suggest they should.

>> No.38040862

More importantly, AoOs should interrupt actions by default. Reach might matter a great deal more in that case.

>> No.38040873


That's exactly the same as 5E's spears only one die larger.

>> No.38040905

>Tell that to nobility and their ilk
Nobility contributes land and capital. There are systems of thought that say land should not be owned, and/or that inheritance is an antimeritocratic system. Needless to say nobility doesn't subscribe to these systems of thought, so they contextualize their actions as contribution.

>> No.38041129

That's what happens, at first. After making these contributions they get their expected cut without having to do much hard physical labor. Perhaps they put in some hard intellectual labor, but eventually they go from helping to expecting to outright stealing. They go from actually working to justify their cut to simply expecting it and then to forcibly extracting it.

They forget what it was to be poor, to have to work. They forget what it was like to manage their people, their firms, with an eye towards sustainability and growth. They hollow out their lands, their people, until it all falls apart.

This is partly to blame on the people as well. They go from expecting to get fucked and sharpening their pitchforks to becoming complacent and letting the noble do whatever he likes because, in the past, everything turned out for the better.

Again, systems work right up until they don't. They stop once everyone forgets that there are evil fucks who will stop at nothing to achieve power and status. They eventually do give them just that and then it all goes to shit. The revolt always comes too late, the evil fuck already took most all the wealth and ran away to a place where others have become complacent, so that he may repeat this dark deed. At least, that's his plan. The nobility at this stage have never been known for good long-term planning. They plan to run, but instead ride that ship straight onto the guillotine.

There's you, the average good person. And then there's them, those without scruple or conscience. It is they who eventually end up as the nobility, for the people never watch them like they should and only realize what's going on after it's too late to really salvage the situation without blood.

>> No.38041147

Yes, and now you don't have to sacrifice damage to use a spear for no reason.

Seriously, why can't I just have a 1handed spear that isn't worse than a longsword or battleaxe.

Why must I either use a tiny shortspear or a pike.

>> No.38041170


Game balance. A spear is a simple weapon usable by peasants, a longsword is a martial weapon used by experts.

>> No.38041231

So what, pikes are expert weapons now?

>> No.38041248

>barbarian champions (celts)
>followers of Gruumsh

>> No.38041250

> but eventually they go from helping to expecting to outright stealing

Nah, they just get a bigger cut to start because capital or land is necessary to start the venture, and high concentrations of either are scarcer than labor. After that, they reinvest their much larger cut to continue the cycle. Again, from their perspective.

There are studies on the fucked up shit wealth and removal from consequence can do to someone, but systems with elites have managed to stay equitable for generations too long for me to assume that French Revolution shit is the norm at all scales and in all instances.

As you say, shit works until it doesn't. Typically, the insanity of the nobility is in response to selection pressures that vary by circumstances that include the involved parties' access to force, access to wealth, and social involvement with one another. All three of those factors change with the time and place.

>> No.38041354

Go to bed, Jean-Fran├žois.

>> No.38041484

>loli hating normalfags try to ruin a thread
>/tg/ saves it with school uniforms and alternative energy

I don't usually say you guys are the best, because I know it goes to your heads, but you da bes.

>> No.38041495


Pike, from a gameplay perspective, is flawed due to its nature as a very very long weapon (Reach property).

It's essentially to not invalidate other weapons. D&D is strongly rooted in combat over roleplay.


An expert can use a spear to great effect, but usually they were trained to wield any weapon to great effect and only preferred spears due to their range and throwing viability. In crunch terms, they had high strength and wouldn't care about marginally lower damage effects because the versatility made up for it and most enemies died quickly no matter what they were using.

>> No.38041532

Swords do come in a great deal more varieties than spears.

>> No.38041545


Needs more HD brah


Also the other fights are in there which are also pretty great

>> No.38041576

What's wrong with reach? It's a hell of a lot better than earlier editions, now that you can actually attack someone next to you.

Reach d10 vs d12 is a hell of a lot better than Thrown (your main weapon) d6 vs d8 Versatile d10

>> No.38041622

That girl has seen a lot of men stabbed to death over the years.

>> No.38041692

They are though. That's the anatomy of a revolution. Once the people conclude, usually correctly, that they aren't getting a fair share and the elites refuse to acquiesce even a little bit the blood starts flowing.

They can demand too much, there are many tales of say unions demanding so much from their employer that they will send the company into negative earnings and eventual bankruptcy if they give in, but that's usually an exception if outside forces are not getting involved.

You are correct though, the big ones are access to force and social involvement. If the elite talk with the people, socialize with them, actually get down there and see their plight the system will tend towards a kind of equity. Never total, the boss is still the boss, but the workers will actually be able to afford what they're making with some change on the side. Think about Ford. He paid his workers way more than minimum wage at the time. Why? He wanted them to be able to buy his model T's. Not many hated the dude even as his bank account grew bigger and bigger. Sharing is caring, but over time nobility and elites grow insular and disconnected from the public and then eventually become disconnected from reality.

When the elite and the masses don't interact (like what's going on today and was going on during the revolutions of the past) this disconnect results. The two will eventually come to see each other as the enemy, something that must be "reigned in". What happens next is either the successful imposition of a tyrannical police state to keep the elite safe from their own exploited people, or a successful revolution to forcibly restore a kind of balance after more than a few of the nobility's heads are turned into soccer balls. Which one happens will depend on access to force, like you said.

>> No.38041891

>posting that picture like it's even half relevant to the conversation
>not understanding that nuclear power is so little used because of societal fears and the ease (and power) of coal, not from any inherent limitation
>not knowing that the GenV reactors in development are estimated to achieve a 99% efficient burn while fully converting the uranium fuel into plutonium

>> No.38041926


We haven't even build a generation IV reactor, generation V is purely schematics at this point

>> No.38041977

Taking revolution and social empathy as the only checks on power is oversimplifying things in a big way. Power competes with power, and economic changes can alter the relationship between labor, land, and capital even without deliberate conflict. Think of the black death, or the transition from feudalism to nation states. Together they did a lot for the lower classes even where revolutions didn't materialize.

Population decrease greatly increased the value of unskilled labor relative to capital, and sort of sealed the deal in a long-coming transition to a more currency based economy when rent turned out to be a better system for both tenants and lords. Meanwhile, cities enriched kings more than baronies did, and mercenary or standing armies paid in cash became a more attractive option than landed nobles fielding elite soldiers in small numbers. The old nobility (based on land) languished while a new nobility (based on wealth from manufacturing and trade) flourished. In many instances, both this new nobility and the labor they needed enjoyed new rights as part of the transition, largely because this benefited the crown. You had to compete to keep skilled laborers and trade in your world and not in someone else's.

France's own revolutions had a lot to do with conflict between old and new money, which is a big part of the reason real reforms for the lower classes were slow to materialize. Meanwhile the centralization of French power was a pretty solid trend throughout.

Also famine and ergot had a lot to do with it. In the same way that change can happen sans revolution, revolt can happen sans oppression.

>> No.38041984

>We haven't even built a generation IV reactor
And I weep for this every day.
I'm less aware of the international situation, but backwards ignorant activists are a blight on American policy.

>> No.38042175

Kill yourself.

>> No.38043216

>France's own revolutions had a lot to do with conflict between old and new money, which is a big part of the reason real reforms for the lower classes were slow to materialize.

The merchants replaced the aristocracy only to behave the same way as they did, but with the consent of the people.

>> No.38043872

It can also be said that the "new" money was also closer to the people and better understood their plight, or at least, could make the case for it. To the people, they appeared to have "earned" their money somehow. They also did not engage openly in the lavish displays of opulence and decadence the Court of Versailles was. In enjoying courtly life and playing the great geopolitical games of the day they forgot about how people can only go about 3 days without eating before they will be ready to kill for a meal. Add to that enlightenment philosophy advocating democracy and liberty of the traditional monarchies and you get the pitchforks and guillotines.

This is how revolts tend to occur. A disconnected and often (but not always) tyrannical elite sitting on top of a hungry and desperate people. The new money gets with the winning team and the old oligarchs lose their heads.

Sadly, the new guys weren't really critical of the old regime, they were just jealous. It was they who ought to live the good life by dint of earning it, not support the old fat cats. Revolutions tend to merely change who runs the system over actually changing the system.

Looked at from this perspective about the only successful revolution in the 20th century was the American Revolution, as it was a radical departure from the previous system (or at least, made these departures official). However, after a few centuries it has relapsed into a model very much like the European models the revolutionaries sought to distance themselves from. It's well documented in their writings, but sad fact is power corrupts. So long as people remain complacent about who runs the show and what exactly the nobles and elites are really doing over what they "say" they are doing the cycle will keep repeating.

Or we'll all follow them off the cliff one day and purge ourselves from the Earth in atomic fire. That one's always fun.

>> No.38044037

>Also improvised weapons are fun.
This. I had to do this in a D&D campaign once. DM had us fight some sort of electric lizards and my Barb was pretty dumb and didn't remember that wood doesn't get electrocuted, so he dropped his scythe and, while the other were busy sniping the things, took a rock, rope out of his backpack, and made an improvist morning star. Got extra XP for creative fighting.

>> No.38044297

>Sadly, the new guys weren't really critical of the old regime, they were just jealous.

Another permanent trait of revolutions.

>They also did not engage openly in the lavish displays of opulence and decadence the Court of Versailles was.

To be fair the image of opulence was a powerful diplomatic tool.

>So long as people remain complacent about who runs the show and what exactly the nobles and elites are really doing over what they "say" they are doing the cycle will keep repeating.

It is human nature to crave stability and peace, no-one wants to lead and get things done, they want to be taken cared of and feel safe. Add in a natural instinct to form hierarchies and behold the whole of human history.

All because it works. There are still humans. There will be for the foreseeable future.

>Or we'll all follow them off the cliff one day and purge ourselves from the Earth in atomic fire. That one's always fun.

Nah, even if so though we'd just have brutal barbarian wasteland tribes engaging in base and nightmarish fits of cruelty in pursuit of survival and prosperity.

There is nothing to it but to struggle forward, despite there not being a set way.

>> No.38045069

Drink petrol, kiddie fucker.

>> No.38045329

>They want to be taken care of and feel safe

You forgot to add, "and they don't want to work hard themselves". Being taken care of isn't the same as sitting on your ass doing nothing, it's more like having a friend. Nobody even wants to make those anymore it seems. Everyone's a dick, everyone only sees each other a resource to exploit.

They forget that too many parasites kills the host. Someone must work, someone has to pay the price. The problem is as societies go on the general public tries to foist this on "everyone else". It always devolves into some form of bread and circuses.

Sadly, the rule "someone must work" is irrevocable. So human nature, then, is both the creative drive to make civilizations and ultimately the reason why they all collapse at some point. Everyone wants to work together, but eventually they just want to sit on their ass and enjoy things as though everyone was working.

Like I said, first they actually help and work, then they come to expect help and work, then they put swords to throats and make other people work for them. It doesn't have to be that direct, there are many ways to steal the wealth and productivity of others and appropriate it to yourself, but this just seems to be the case.

I think there's even a cycle. It starts with bondage and ends with bondage. I guess there really is no reason to hope for humanity. Hard-wired fools top to bottom, the cycle is iron clad and cannot be stopped. No matter what, the worst in us always wins out and the only ones left laughing are the psychopaths as the general public buys their bullshit and worships them like the gods they (both people and psychopath) think they are.

Hell, even your pic is supremely ironic. Hundreds of thousands a year die in hospitals because of treatment. Would they have died without it? We don't know, but the autopsy is pretty conclusive, the drugs did him in. Death makes a healthy harvest at such places.

>> No.38047582

They also have the downside of upsetting greenies because birds tend to fly into the areas where the heat is being focused and get torched.

>> No.38050739

Peasants, all of them.

>> No.38050896

>Looked at from this perspective about the only successful revolution in the 20th century was the American Revolution
The perspective of success and failure in historical movements isn't always a useful one, as it either makes teleological assumptions or treats group motives as homogenous. A lot of the time anyway.

The change the revolutions accomplished might not have been in accordance with the purported goals of the philosophies associated with them, nor with the ideals we would see them strive for, but the change wrought was real and big for the time.

I'd also point you to Haiti and South America. Again, weird Pyrrhic victories with relapses and retaliation, but fascinating stories.

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