Quantcast
[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / g / ic / jp / lit / sci / tg / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports / report a bug ] [ 4plebs / archived.moe / rbt ]

Due to resource constraints, /g/ and /tg/ will no longer be archived or available. Other archivers continue to archive these boards.Become a Patron!

/tg/ - Traditional Games


View post   

[ Toggle deleted replies ]
[ERROR] No.37544246 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Where is all the African-inspired fantasy?

>> No.37544272

>>37544246
Too busy dying from AIDS and child soldiers.

>> No.37544284

>>37544246
1620-1865

>> No.37544309

>>37544246
>Where is all the African-inspired fantasy?
You mean clean water and electricity? Food and shelter?

>> No.37544327

>>37544246
Spears and rocks being the only available weapons leaves them kind of bland.

>> No.37544337

>>37544246
It's poorly served in modern Western academia so never found itself getting much attention from the roleplaying set, beyond standard tropes (usually racist and reductivist). There are some fascinating possibilities for gaming, particularly with the Dogon Kingdom and their myths.

>> No.37544338

>>37544246
There's a good little bit of African-inspired fantasy, actually.

>> No.37544339

>>37544246
Do you mean Africans in western-inspired fantasy or fantasy derived from African mythology?

>> No.37544356

>>37544246

Theros had them as a secondary group, whise Mirage was all about that shit... like 14 M:tG blocks ago.

>> No.37544359

>>37544272
>>37544309
>>37544327
>not wanting to fuck around in not-Egypt and not-Mali
>not wanting to fight fucking weird monsters on the savanna
>not wanting lion companions for your rangers and gazelle mounts for your paladins and crazy witch doctor shit for your wizards

Shit taste, the lot of you.

>> No.37544366

Whatever do you mean, OP? Ancient Egypt is often used for inspiration in fantasy.

>> No.37544370

Theres african inspired post apoc scifi if youre into that

>> No.37544386

>> No.37544396

>> No.37544406

>>37544246
>You will never be in an Anansi Boys-esque game

>> No.37544409

>> No.37544416

>>37544370
any examples besides that picture?

>> No.37544429

>> No.37544443

>>37544416

>> No.37544445

>>37544246
>Where is all the African-inspired fantasy
Try your local democrats

>> No.37544450

>>37544359
>gazelle mounts
Nigga really? You think a gazelle's back can handle a human weighing ~100 lbs?
>crazy witch doctors
That's some Caribbean shit. Africa had shamans and shit.

>> No.37544456

We get this thread once in a while and it usually devolves into /pol/-teir shitposting and arguments. But let's indulge it anyway!

>>37544337
Probably because western academia is most interested in western mythology, since they're in the west and all that. African schools teach African mythology, so what we need is some actual Africans to write up a setting.
Thus we avoid the problems of having westerners misunderstanding the point or being accused of cultural appropriation by a gaggle of SJWs.
Complaining that Culture A is not catering to the demographics of Culture B is kind of pointless and doesn't help anything.

>> No.37544465

>>37544246
Write one and you'll make a bunch from twitter hipsters. Use Kickstarter.

>> No.37544466

>>37544272
So Africans are living in a fantasy universe?
>Warlords and their roving armies.
>Mercenaries & adventurers crossing borders to fight wars.
>Shamans & Magic Potions
>Pirates
>Crazy President-Kings and their court intrigues.
Fuck, brb packing.

>> No.37544483

>these images
Historic Egyptians and other North Africans weren't black, you idiots. Anyone with passing knowledge of the Arab slave trade could have told you that.

>> No.37544485

>>37544246
This book had an African city-state setting iirc.

>> No.37544492

>>37544450
Where I grew up they absolutely had witch doctors called Nyungas. Medicine men who told you to boil the flesh of an albino to cure your aches and pains, or rape a virgin to cure your HIV.
I'm not exaggerating either and not trying to start an argument, just pointing some of the more fucked up parts.

>> No.37544493

>>37544483
Wow, it's almost like they're fantasy art... wow... to think that such a thing was possible...

>> No.37544499

>>37544445

>> No.37544505

>>37544483
>not knowing about the Kushite pharaohs

shiggy

>> No.37544506

>>37544483
>Anyone with passing knowledge of the Arab slave trade
Shut the fuck up anon. Just fucking stop.

>> No.37544513

>>37544483
The fuck do these images have to do with Egypt?

>> No.37544514

>>37544456
>Thus we avoid the problems of having westerners misunderstanding the point or being accused of cultural appropriation by a gaggle of SJWs.
I hate this liberal segregationist streak that's popular right now.

>> No.37544523

>>37544483
Well there was a Black Dynasty in Egypt when the Nubians invaded it Barbarian Style.

Sides, Nubia, being influenced by Egypt, had Egyptian culture, except with none of its pansiness thanks to the local Martial culture.

>> No.37544524

>>37544506
You sound upset.

>>37544513
I said Egypt and other North African.

>> No.37544550

>>37544524
Yeah, and? Most of the pictures arent direct references to either.

>> No.37544551

There's a FATE setting out sometime this year called Gods & Monsters, and it's about the nature spirits who lorded over the early psuedo-African human tribes.

>> No.37544561

My favourite African sword, the Ethiopian shotel.

>> No.37544586

>> No.37544598

>>37544416

>> No.37544602

>>37544561
I can't into curved swords, /tg/. Don't curves like these make it more difficult to draw your sword quickly? What sort of scabbard do you need to hold that sort of blade?

>> No.37544616

>>37544602
>I can't into curved swords,
You're right, you can't 'into' swords.

>> No.37544628

>>37544602
> What sort of scabbard do you need

A curved scabbard. Are you clinically retarded?

>> No.37544637

>>37544602
>Don't curves like these make it more difficult to draw your sword quickly?

no

>What sort of scabbard do you need to hold that sort of blade?

a curved one.

>> No.37544648

>>37544602
>not realizing that curved blades are designed for slashing the fuck out of people
>not knowing that curved blades are known across the globe, from Egypt to Switzerland to Japan
>not bowing down to your khopesh overlords

>> No.37544694

>> No.37544714

>>37544648
>>37544637
>>37544628
>>37544616

I understand that they're designed for slashing over stabbing and that with a curved design you can more easily create a center of balance farther from the hilt making it easier to put more weight into a swing, sort of like an ax, it's just always seemed to me that a sword with a sort of S curve would require a more awkward movement to remove from a scabbard than a straight or more ( shaped blade.

>> No.37544742

>>37544714

A curved blade makes it arguably easier to remove from a scabbard

>> No.37544819

>nobody discussing the topic
>split between /pol/ and yelling at an idiot who would be just as happy on /k/

>> No.37544820

>>37544456
>Complaining that Culture A is not catering to the demographics of Culture B is kind of pointless and doesn't help anything
Who says that African-inspired settings would cater only to people with African backgrounds? Everyone loves lions.

>> No.37544864

>>37544819
Probably because not alot of people are familiar with Sub-Saharan African lore.

The rest of the world has more easily defined pantheons to look at(except for the Slavs).

>> No.37544876

>>37544246
That's cultural appropriation.

>> No.37544901

Nerds are a racist bunch.

>> No.37544911

>>37544246
I really want to run guild wars nightfall campaign now... With Hyleks and Centaurs!

>> No.37544917

>>37544246
Well, Discordian theology would place them in the Domain of Aneris, where all things that don't exist live.

>> No.37544922

>>37544327
They were some of the first people to have iron, go look up a kapinga

>> No.37544939

>>37544337

Since modern academia is a western concept and invention, the use of "western academia" is an oxymoron. All of todays academia is western in its origin.

>> No.37544943

>>37544327
The Africans were too pro to bother with scrub non-spear weapons.

Serious answer: you have no fucking clue.

>> No.37544944

>>37544911

I've wanted it for ages.

Guild Wars is better than 90% of fantasy settings and it fucking kills me. tfw GW2 will always be shit

>> No.37544968

>>37544939
Modern Academia owes as much to the Arabs as it does to the Greek. It is more accurate to say that it is a Mediterranean concept.

>> No.37544969

>>37544911
>>37544944

I want to play a sequel to Guild Wars

>> No.37544992

>>37544969
>Factions 2 never
>Nightfall 2 never
>Utopia never
>just Sylvari all of the fucking time

>> No.37545009

>>37544992

Stupid sexy lesbian plants

>> No.37545010

>>37544992
Fear not this night..

>> No.37545026

>>37544992
>no ritualists
>fruity fucking paragons
>no joy of doing Missions with your friends
>No long runs across the snow capped mountains to the citadel
>No monk bros

>> No.37545036

>>37544969

To get this topic back on track, there are a few African-inspired roleplaying game settings that I can think of, including Nyambe and Spears of the Dawn

>> No.37545040

>>37545026
GW2 was so perfect in theory, but in practice I realized the goal they were aiming for - and succeeded in achieving - is to eliminate the need for party-based play.

>> No.37545133

>>37545036

Are either of them any good?

>> No.37545141

>>37545036
Nyambe was a pretty fucking cool setting. It's my default Africa-equivalent continent in any D&D game.

>> No.37545202

>>37545133

I've heard good things about Nyambe

Spears of the Dawn is based on Stars Without Number by the same author, which means its amazing (probably) but also completely based around generating things on tables and creating interesting encounters/people/cities/quests/etc via those results

>> No.37545212

>>37544246
I'm surprised nobody has brought up Majora's Mask yet. Granted, it's FAR from canon, but check this out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1iv1Ws5XU
I know the host is nigh-intolerable, but it's worth a watch.

>> No.37545241

>>37545202

This reminds me that I need to read Spears of the Dawn. Stars Without Number is great, and Red Tide is my favorite asian-inspired D&D setting

>> No.37545283

>>37544514
How is letting people tell their own story segregationist? I've grown up in a society that has been heavily influenced by an undercurrent of western mythology and philosophies, and so I feel somewhat qualified to write fantasy that draws on western elements I'm familiar with.

I'm never going to learn enough by osmosis that I can write a respectful, nuanced fantasy setting based on an African culture, even if I up and moved there tomorrow and started immersing myself in their culture.

>> No.37545317

>>37545283
>How is letting people tell their own story segregationist?
That's not what they are doing.

Demanding that 'no one else' write these stories but a select few 'of the right colour' most certainly is a form of cultural segregation.

By their demands neither Kim nor the Jungle Book would ever have been written.

>> No.37545350

>>37545283

A culture is not a person. A culture does not create anything. A culture does not own anything. "Culture" is simply the artifacts, stories, ideas, objects, and images borrowed from individuals and their neighbors which finally rise to the top of collective consciousness and become an accepted and normalized part of life for entirely nebulous groups of people

No one specific culture can claim sole ownership of anything under its purvey. No one can say what is and what is not off limits in regards to a culture, the way those images can be shown or those ideas expressed, because no one has the right to do so

>> No.37545353

>>37544246
well for starters africans never wore fullplate armor into battle as they'd die from heat exhaustion in it. Secondly they probably didn't bother with armor beyond shields and tended to favor bows, arrows, shields, axes, swords, clubs and other classic weapons. tended towards shamanism and tribal naturalism in magical rites.

>> No.37545376

>>37545353
>Secondly they probably didn't bother with armor beyond shields
They had padded gambesons and 'chain mail' in both the east and west African medieval civilizations. Mostly a cavalry thing though.

>> No.37545400

>>37545376

>> No.37545404

>>37545376

Those were usually worn with chain underneath

>> No.37545412

>>37545376
>>37545400

I'd argue they would have had plate armor if certain forces had pushed for its development, exchange and being plunged into the cultural conscious of its wealthy and elite.

>> No.37545446

>>37545376
>>37545400
huh, learn something new everyday. No real reason for them not to develop it I suppose. Just have to wait for the cooler months so heat exhaustion is less of an issue.

>> No.37545509

>>37545404
>chain underneath padded cloth
That is totally not how you do it.

>> No.37545561

>>37545412

western yurop is pretty much the only place to ever bother with full on plate armor, pretty sure stuff like mirror armor and lamellar was the height of armor crafting outside of anywhere but japan (where they had their own armor that was pretty good and then happily imported nanban yoroi and created their own version)

Most armor develop is pretty much good enough for everything they're fighting against, the only reason full plate became a thing was because of the nuclear arms race of armor vs gunpowder (which is probably why japan also readily adopted plate armor)

>> No.37545641

>>37544246
Spears of the Dawn

>> No.37545682

>>37544246
In rap songs.

>> No.37545797

>>37544523
The Nubians were more related to the afro-asiatic Egyptians and the Ethiopians than black of, for example, Bantu or Khoisan(Pygmies). And the images I seen in this thread they seem to be portrayed like bantus or Western Africans, probably because African American.
>>37544561
That's not a Shotel anon. Heck, look at the handguard,it seems the head of an italian with a wallhanger cross.

>> No.37545869

>>37545797
That's a shotel, but eh isn't as elegant as a flyssa or as cool as a Kaskara or Takouba.

>> No.37545889

>Not having a crocodile as a sheath.
Also Kaskaras are so pretty.

>> No.37545916

The bedouins make some awesome sabres too.

>> No.37545928

But the most beautiful African sword always will be the Flyssa.

>> No.37545937

Tough Morocco and Zanzibar made some cool swords too.

>> No.37545947

>>37544714
no, you just pull it out.

>> No.37545960

And that's a Takouba, the typical sword from the Toareg.

>> No.37545984

>>37545797

Right, when people (especially Americans) say "Africa." what they really mean is "the part of Africa that doesn't have a long, Muslim and/or Christian history

>> No.37545992

>>37545928
>>37545937
>>37545960
I want to make love to these implements of death

>> No.37545995

And the Nimcha, than must be one the most gorgeous swords of the world, typical from Morocco.

>> No.37546019

>>37544246
Here :
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/110293/Spears-of-the-Dawn?

>> No.37546021

>>37545984
>Americans.
They don't know Africa is called that because the Romans named it after they conquest of it? Also now Ethiopians, Ghana, Mali etc aren't African too?
>>37545992
Aw yeah, also look at this bedouin sword. Now you see those words? Are in Spanish (it's writed don't unsheath me without reason, or sheath my without honor, a very typical legend in swords and navajas from spain) because lot's of African bought swords from Europe (specially Solingen, Germany) because the quality/price. Still the handguards and stuff are very pretty.

>> No.37546055

>>37545561
There were a lot of cunts in Asia who were flooded with muskets and cannon (cannon being the area of gunpowder weapons that Japs were retarded in) that didn't bother with plate.

The Gunpowder Muslim Empires of Ottoman, Safavid, and Mughal Empires plus China to be exact.

Largely because they valued mobility since their common enemies are shitty steppe nomads.

Also, Dutch records in Taiwan say that this sort of armor's cuirass, along with its brigandine version, was actually pretty hard to pierce by musket balls. The Dutch called them "Iron Troop" but really they're just a bunch of cavalrymen of Koxinga's rebel army

>> No.37546080

Well, I don't know much about African FANTASY, but you want African Sci-Fi?

The Ear, The Eye, The Arm, I think the books called. Good read, you can probably pick it up in your local library.

>> No.37546088

>>37544901
No we aren't.

We're overly defensive because of decades of ridicule and mistrust between our hobby and most other areas of society.

So we respond to "African game plox" with "STOP SAYING WE'RE RACIST OH MY FUCKING GOD LEAVE US ALONE YOU FUCKING FUCKS"

It's more the fault of those who try to call the breadth of what constitutes "nerdy" pastimes irredeemably MISOGYNIST TRANSPHOBE RACIST PRIVILEGE IGNORANCE BUZZWORDS night and day.

>>37544968
>Modern Academia owes as much to the Arabs

No it doesn't.

Arabs were cool sciencebros for, like, maybe three centuries.

Then it was Islam Extravaganza and hurkadurka forever.

>> No.37546107

>>37546080
I think I read that, ages ago. It seems very familiar.

I remember enjoying it, but little else.

Fuck, now I need to hunt that down again.

>> No.37546173

>>37546080
Eurofuturists be all 'spaceships, flying cars, lasers and robots'. But Afrofuturists be all 'all of that, plus HUGE HAIR and maybe also lions'

>> No.37546178

>>37544968
>To the Arabs.
>ARABS.
Fuck no, Andalusians and Iranian could be, but Arabs? The only thing good of the Arabs are the swords.

>> No.37546196

>>37545141
So, what's cool about it?

>> No.37546263

>>37546178
>Byzantines and Sassanids duke it out like champs
>Fuckin mauled each other.
>Sassanids come out losing
>Turks invade and buttdevastate Western Sassanid borders.
>Sassanid empire descends to Chaos and anarchy.
>Arabs united by Muhammad and under the command of Khalid Ibn Walid.
>Invaded Sassanid Empire.
>BTFO Byzantines and removed them from the levant.
>Pax Islamica ensues.
>Persian/Greek Scholars can go back to tinkering/thinking shit since not threatened by internecine fighting and banditry anymore.
>Islamic Golden ages start.

>> No.37546283

>>37544356
>tfw you will never get a Return to Jamuura because Zhalfir literally no longer exists

>> No.37546290

>>37546263

World history - and yes, particularly African history - would have gone much better if Muhammad and his faith hadn't left Arabia.

>mfw no Christian Berber states
>mfw no united Ethiopia
>mfw no Christian Nubia
>mfw Sudanese have little understanding or consciousness of Nubia because muh jahiliyya
>mfw Islam ravaged and continues to ravage Africa

>> No.37546308

>>37546290
They're probably just continue being warring shits.

Islam's Umma- the Idea that Muslims should strive to be as one community- united some of them at least like the Sudan. "Nubia" is pretty much a disunited hellhole that some kingdoms, like Kush, managed to unite for a short while.

>> No.37546325

>>37546308

Nubia was rarely united, but hardly a shithole. Modern-day Sudan, however...

>> No.37546332

>>37544864
>except for Slavs
>tfw people make Eastern European settings with Norse-based mythology

>> No.37546374

>>37546332
At least you know the names of some of your gods, here in Spain our Pre Romanic cultures were destroyed and we don't even know from where the Iberian language come from, and much less how to translate it.

>> No.37546397

>>37544466
Yeah, but you gotta remember, those shamans make their magic potions out of the lips, genitals, and anuses cut off of their living victims, and all those warlords and mercenaries are chaotic evil.

Africa's a fantasy setting, but it's grimdark as fuck. Emphasis on "dark".

>> No.37546400

>>37546325
But it was. That place is non-stop filled with warring tribes who are good warriors but crap at anything else.

>> No.37546411

>>37546374
Galicians don't have that problem.

Atlantic Celt Master Race, bitches.

>> No.37546440

>>37546400
The Makurian Kingdom lasted a good while and was only toppled by invading Arabs (as well as what is assumed to be environmental changes, the area became more arid)

>> No.37546450

>>37546332

If it's any consolation, my worldbuilding project has the Slav-inspired civilizations worship a God Above and God Below, with a dualistic theology and system of worship but no moralistic approach to it.

>> No.37546459

>>37546411
>Implying the Celts had an united Pantheon.

>> No.37546469

>>37546397
>not restoring your health by cutting out a fetus and raping it

>> No.37546470

>>37546055

It's not that they didn't have exposure to guns, its that they didn't try to fight against guns by saying our armor's not good enough? MORE ARMOR

>> No.37546479

>>37545869
>>37545797
You most certainly did get shotels with thicker blades, and there is pictorial evidence in Ethiopian illuminated manuscripts from the medieval period of shotel blades that thick with more of an extended cross hilt.

The thin variety, from my own investigations, are actually later dated than the thicker blades, usually around the colonial period, with the heavier varieties dated to closer to the middle ages.

>> No.37546487

>>37544246
They are in their own fantasy world right now
>shamans and spirit talkers healing people and leading the people to better future
>great warriors fighting for the good of themselves and their clan
>mostly medieval weaponry, with the inclusion of reliable AK-47 firearm.
>mostly deserted wasteland with small settlements of civilized people dotting the map
>travel mostly by walking from a place to place

>> No.37546494

>>37546479
Some visuals of thicker shotel blades.

>> No.37546500

>>37546494

>> No.37546519

>>37546470
They usually just said >more guns.
They had big armies after all.

>> No.37546522

>>37546494
Isn't that simply a saif? I thought the Shotel was the sickle-like swords of the Damites and Axomites, than later some tribes used too.

>> No.37546539

Read The Anansi Boys. Very charming book.

>> No.37546556

>>37546522
No it is not a saif. There are double-edged variety of shotel just as there is the more exotic 'sickle' style.

The shotel has a wide variety in form. Unfortunately classification has been hard since we have very few English-language resources.

There is little indication that Ethiopians made a language distinction between the types of curved swords.

>> No.37546589

>>37546556
>>37546522
It's worth pointing out that in Ethiopia, the word 'saif' refers to a straight bladed sword exclusively.

Picture related. (German blades refitted in Yemen. Very common for many blades to originally be European and refitted for local hilts. Very common in much of India as well.)

>> No.37546594

>>37544922
>kapinga
After digging into the subject they learned Iron working in the 800 to 400 BC range, which is nothing special really. However neither is backwards: Ireland got iron working around 650 to 600 BC. The issue is that other then about 4 culture groups Africa did not have iron working. There is a reason why Europeans traded Iron and rum to them, because the locals could not make those products.

This means that much of the source material is basically stone age level. Works if you are going for that feel I guess.

>> No.37546707

>>37546594
Virtually all of Africa was in the iron by by 500 AD.

Only the Khoisan bushman and pygmies remained stone age.

We know that iron was being worked in southern Niger around 1500 BCE.

It wasn't a 50's Tarzan movie, except maybe in the lower Congo river basin.

>> No.37546893

>>37546707
That looks like a pretty happening place.

How easy is it to tame leopards?

Are those wide-headed spears as effective as they look? They look pretty swank.

>> No.37546937

>>37544524
What about the Moors?

>> No.37546939

>>37544456

>so what we need is some actual Africans to write up a setting.

Is there a tabletop gaming scene in Africa at all?

>> No.37546955

>>37545141
>>37546196

I loved Dahomey (inspired by RL Nibomay and its Amazons). I love that they detail ethnic groups, do surprisingly interesting things with the 3e engine (for one, basically, mundanes can make magic fetish armor and get dodge bonuses to make up for the lack of heavy armor). I like that they included multiple interpretations of each campaign hook.

>> No.37546971

>>37545317
To be fair, the Jungle Book and other writings by Ruyard Kipling really helped proliferate the idea of "the white man's burden"

>> No.37546976

>>37546939

Unfortunately not, all the tables have been stolen.

>> No.37546987

>>37544246
Look up Charles Saunders Imaro, and the rest of the Soul & Sorcery subgenre.

Saunders in particular is fucking great

>> No.37546990

>>37544466
TOPKEK

>> No.37546992

>>37545984
Might want to rephrase that to "sub-Saharan"

>> No.37547009

>>37546939
yeah, mostly D&D.

>> No.37547033

>>37546992
But isn't the Sahel chock full of Christians and Muslims that have been there for ages?

Fuck, they made it all the way down to like...the middle of the fucking continent, didn't they? Until those faggot flies started fagging things up? Or am I totally fucking off base?

>> No.37547042

>>37546893
>How easy is it to tame leopards?
Ashanti and Volta-Niger speaking kings had "tamed" leopards for ceremonies.

Hunters would steal cubs from the bush and raise them.

>Are those wide-headed spears as effective as they look?
Benin kept out the most powerful west afican armies at the time, so yeah.

>> No.37547056

>>37547033
>But isn't the Sahel chock full of Christians and Muslims that have been there for ages?
Yep. Everywhere from Takrur in what is now Senegal, all the way to Ethiopia in the east.

Everything south of the Tseste fly belt was pagan.

>> No.37547070

>>37547033
Yeah, but the point OP made was "the west isn't aware of non-Christian/Muslim Africa", but I'd say the average American imagines all of Africa south of the Sahara and north of Cape Town as Unga Bunga land. Even my sister, who's been on several mission trips and is well on her way to becoming a religious conservative thinks African babies specifically are "so cute"

>> No.37547071

>>37546971
No they didn't you fucking moron. I'm convinced you've never actually read Kipling's books about India.

>> No.37547134

>>37547071
yes, he did. he maybe didn't intend to, but what he intended in irrelevant.

>> No.37547320

>>37546707
>We know that iron was being worked in southern Niger around 1500 BCE.

If you are going by the Oboui site dating. The iusse is that one there is no sites dated near it. Two the closest sites are 500 years later and were dated in the early days of radiocarbon so those sites are 1000 BC to 700 BC for dates. Third the oldest sites that no one argues much over are around 800 to 700 BC for their dates.

So what happened over that huge gap? In Europe Iron working became a thing at around 1300 BC in Sicily and about a century later the sea peoples started wrecking ever ones shit in the near east. Other cultures learned how to work iron or died out in the area. In a 130 years everyone still alive in the area had iron weapons & armor ( more so armor, esp helmets). Even if in Africa after learning how to work iron they did not think "hey lets kill people and take their shit" like European did they must of done some thing with it. Before you say Bantu migrations south of the Congo basin keep in mind their was people living there before hand, so that is not a case of Iron working opening new livable areas.

>> No.37547398

>>37544714
There is a whole discipline of Japanese swordsmanship called Iaido based around quickly drawing your sword to dispatch ambushers and for dueling. That being said, taking an extra half a second to draw your sword would only be a big deal on those exact situations.

>> No.37547415

>>37547134
>what he intended is irrelevant.

It isn't.

Death of the author is only ever used to justify deliberate misinterpretation.

>> No.37547445

>>37545376
Weren't all those kingdoms dominated be a an Islamic upper class with lot's of trade with other Islamic countries?

>> No.37547473

>>37547445
Minus Ethiopia of course.

>> No.37547532

>>37547398
Same here, In addition: The practice is based around the fact that the curved sword allows the swordsman to make the act of drawing the sword into a strike, instead of drawing, then striking, the way that a person with a straight sword would. Not all curved swords are created equal however, as the the shape of the katana specifically that allows for this kind of technique. Many of the African swords above would not allow for this.

>> No.37547573

>>37544246
Given how pretty much everyone in this thread show that they know practically nothing about Africa - and these would supposedly be people with above average knowledge of and interest in the subject - is it really so surprising it's a rare thing to come across?

>> No.37547579

>>37547445
Some were Christian, or became Christian after being predominately animist, but Islam made up the majority.

(This thread is just reminding me how cool a Mali/Nigeria: Total War game would be. Fight to establish your empire in the prosperous west of Africa)

>> No.37547596

>>37547573
Please, educate us.

I'm all ears for an expert.

>> No.37547634

>>37547573
I'm sure you know much better though, right?

>> No.37547690

African styled fantasy is like sisters of battle, unpopular and only appeals to a niche of people. (from what I've seen on /tg/ these people have played western based settings to death and are sick of them)

Then you have white guy writing about black stuff it is inevitable to be called racist.

TLDR No demand, also character assassination of author inevitable.

>> No.37547702

>>37544514
It's not really a liberal stance so much as a reactionary right-left fusion.

As far as actually-existing African fantasy, "Who Fears Death" by Nnedi Okorafor is a pretty good high fantasy/post-apocalyptic novel with some good setting material.

>> No.37547727

>>37547702
I see it mostly propagated by the left and so called 'progressives'.

>> No.37547742

>>37547320
Not sure what you tried to say, but iron working along with the arrival of Southeast Asian crops was a major factor in the rise of organized societies African antiquity.

Obviously iron was used for farm tools and weapons.

>> No.37547757

>>37546976
You don't deserve that laugh.

>> No.37547943

>>37547042
Apparently cheetahs are tantalizingly close to being domesticated, but their gene pool is so constrained it's impossible to selectively breed them.

>> No.37547970

>>37547596
>>37547634
I do not consider myself an expert on the subject, in fact I would probably consider myself regretfully uneducated on the subject, but many of the things said in this thread is the kind of stuff that no man with a basic education and internet access has any excuse for believing in.

>> No.37547981

>>37547943
not quite domesticated so much as they are a little nicer then others. they will still maul you.

cobras, oddly enough, are also very friendly. their natural reaction is to bite first, but if you somehow spend enough time around one to get them to stop recognizing you as a threat then they become nice

>> No.37548012

>>37544466

>for you, it's a bizarre fantasy world
>for africans, it was just Tuesday.

>> No.37548026

>>37544506

Do people really not know marocco and the sahara exist?

>> No.37548029

>>37544406
>I roll to cuck my brother/other half

>> No.37548050

>>37547943
I can't imagine cheetah's being very useful animals. They can hardly fend for themselves and IIRC their hunting success rate is kind of trash

>> No.37548058

>tfw that one time I made an african game my players didnt have time to play

>> No.37548064

>>37545040
>>37545026
>>37545009
>>37544992
>>37544969
Old Cog of the Citadel here.

I built my own story with the roleplaying shenanigans me and mine got up to. Who needs living story and the missions when there was a roleplaying community of hundreds of people to manipulate and engage in chicanery and intrigue with?

I have such tales...

>> No.37548071

>>37548050
Gotta go fast.

>> No.37548092

ITT: >>>/pol/

>> No.37548103

>>37548092

>it's racist, even if it's true!

>> No.37548110

>>37548092
oh fuck off

>> No.37548123

>>37548092
>Bad goy! Don't you know facts are racist and anti-semetic? You almost holocausted me over here!

>> No.37548240

>>37544370
Isn't that just what Africa is like in real life though?

>> No.37548290

>>37545283
Because it promotes segregationism and racism. Why can't it just be human culture?

>> No.37548316

>>37544943
>The Africans were too pro to bother with scrub non-spear weapons.
>Mfw this is true at least for the Zulus.
Shaka Zulu: "Guys, I really think our silly warfare involving spear chucking and posturing isn't really scaring our rivals away. So I invented this small-shafted spear with a longass blade."
Zulus: "But we can't throw that"
Shaka: "PRECISELY. I want you to run up to them and stab them in the dick. OK?"

>> No.37548320

>>37548240
Nah, they're crazier

>> No.37548352

>>37548320
also this

>> No.37548363

>>37548050
Are cats useful animals?

>> No.37548373

>>37547970
So, you admit you know practically nothing about Africa, yet decide that just because you feel like it, you have the right and the knowledge required to berate the validity of others information without even bothering to research the subject yourself?

You sir, are a pessimistic bitch.

>> No.37548381

>>37545212
the dude who made the video is an insufferable weabboo

but the video series is really well done and i enjoyed it quite a bit

>> No.37548392

>>37547070
Does your sister often catch herself saying that when spending an afternoon at your local zoo as well?

>> No.37548397

>>37548363
>Are cats useful animals?
thanks for helping me realize I lack a full retard image

>> No.37548409 [DELETED] 

>>37548320
>>37548352

I have a hard time believing these aren't staged but then I see the niggers that were domesticated (a term I use loosely) and then I can see how wild negroes would be this fucking crazy...

>> No.37548428

>>37548397
I'm not saying cats are or are not useful, only that cheetahs are also cats and would therefore serve a similar purpose.

>> No.37548457

>>37548409
Well, they really believe that being dressed as women will make the enemy bullets confused and will save them.

>> No.37548493

>>37548409
>>37548457
Its for a movie: "Johnny Mad Dog." Which is a biopic of a group of Child/Teen soldiers.

Mainly the life of this guy >>37544466, Joseph Duo.

>> No.37548530

>>37544505

Pointing at the Kushite Pharaohs and saying that the Egyptians are black is like pointing at Barack Obama and saying that the Founding Fathers were black. Egypt has existed for a long ass time.

>> No.37548540

In Botswana, metalheads call themselves renegades and dress like cowboys.

>>37544386
>>37544396
Some of the best scenery I've yet to see.

>> No.37548629

>>37548373
>you admit you know practically nothing about Africa
Yes. That is how I'd describe it.

>yet decide that just because you feel like it, you have the right and the knowledge required to berate the validity of others information
Just doing basic research will debunk many of these claims. Imagining Africa as a giant war zone full of poverty and famine is popular for example (and this thread does not seem to be an exception), but it's quite simply not true. Most of Africa isn't even close to that.

>> No.37548658

>>37548428
Cats are useful as pest control, and that's about it.

>> No.37548710

>>37546374
I'm from Portugal.

We'll always have Endovelicus neighbor.

>> No.37548730

>>37548530
Give it a few decades and they will

>> No.37548803

>>37548658
>Cats are useful as pest control, and that's about it.
If rats kill more people then everything else combined, "that's about it" is plenty.

>> No.37548873

>>37548352
I see one protagonist and two wacky side-characters.

>> No.37548884

>>37544246
There's not enough demand for it for anyone to bother with it, since there's no way to win when making something like that. The people who bring it up just bring it up because they like to point out when other people do things that can be construed as being intolerant. And maybe that ONE guy who actually knows anything about whatever specific slice of African history he wants to put in a RPG setting.

>Look I made this RPG centered on tribal people and spirit magic! And everyone is black!

Oh, you went with the usual Africa tropes? Enjoy being called racist and accused of pandering to people who just want pyramids or black guys in leopard furs.

>Okay but I made this other thing with black people and... And stuff that's not just a ripoff from national geographic specials!

Oh, you went with something original? Enjoy being accused of ignoring the rich and important heritage of the African continent.

And the kicker is, that no matter which way you go, the subtext will always be "I'm assuming black people in fantasy settings should somehow have something in common with the culture from a specific real-world location where people who look similar to them live.

You know what's more racist than not having any black people in your fantasy setting? Having them and making them all speak with a Caribbean accent and any number of similar awful ideas I've seen people have here on /tg/

>I listened to lots of reggae to get in character!

What, so just because your character is black he has to speak like he's from Kingston? In Dungeons and Dragons?

>Ye mon!

You can't win with the people who care about this stuff, and the people who don't care don't care. You either end up shoehorning specific bits of african trivia into your setting and making something bland that makes everyone wonder why you bothered, or you make something genuine and different that nobody will play and that still won't satisfy the people who get all riled up about "racism" in fantasy.

>> No.37548899

>>37548803
>If rats kill more people then everything else combined, "that's about it" is plenty.
You are thinking mosquitoes.

>> No.37548905

>>37545509
History disagrees

>> No.37548923

>>37548884
YA MON

>> No.37548941

>>37548899
>mosquitoes
He said people anon :^)

>> No.37548944

>>37545212
The only problem I had with this guy is he suggested that the Mongolian Sand Worm is from Africa. For a guy who "loves to explore culture" he sure fucked up that one.

>> No.37548951

>>37544416
The webcomic 6-Commando is set in Africa. It's alternate history Cold War gone hot, with Bolos.

>> No.37548958

>>37548530
NOBODY HERE IS SAYING EGYPTIANS WERE BLACK. But we are acknowledging their cultural influence on the Nubians.

>> No.37549010

>>37548884
Maybe you should just avoid arguing with morons and just not put racist shit in your setting.

>> No.37549027

>>37548884
Sure, making a fucking terrible setting will get people to call your setting fucking terrible. But you're really overstating how many people just want to hate everything. A passingly competent African-inspired setting would get overwhelmingly positive press, be picked apart by some experts, and screamed about by the insatiable screamers. But those last two groups are TINY. Way more people would pick it up just for the novelty than would complain or listen to the complaints.

>> No.37549059

>>37548923
This kind of says it all. It's one of the more well-known, mainstream fantasy ip's with prominent characters that have a sort of Carribean or african flavour... And they're not even human. And it's all basically just "lol we voodoo and skulls and headhunting and witchdoctorin'"

>> No.37549116

>>37548958
What's a Nubian?

>> No.37549203

>>37549116
MOTHERFUCKER

>> No.37549214

>>37549116
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia

>> No.37549254

>>37549059
To be fair their actual culture seems to be more Precolonial Central America.

>> No.37549298

>>37549116
If you're the guy bitching about non-existant people in this thread asserting that Egyptians were black and black people in North Africa can be explained by a "passing knowledge of slave trade" and you don't even know what a Nubian is, just get the fuck out of this thread.

>> No.37549355

>>37544246

Spears of the Dawn is about a fantasy version of real African Kingdoms that didn't exist all at the same time. (The designer spelled it out at one point but I can't be assed to find the post)

It's pretty cool.

>> No.37549409

>>37544246
Most of the people who play pen and paper rpg's aren't African.

It's one of those cases of people being riled up on behalf of other people who don't really care, while being reluctant to make any of it themselves.

How many of the people who are arguing for "inclusive" cultural and racial representation in RPG's ever bothered to even read up on like, one African country and stealing shit from it for a D&D campaign?

Besides, anything that's recognizable for a significant number of people tends to end up feeling very sort of... Theme park.

"Haha, look, it's D&D but with even more Gnolls and some Dire Giraffes"

>> No.37549418

>>37549214
>>37549298
Jesus Christ y'all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHLJfxfXHBg

>> No.37549426

>>37544246
Mfw playing a tuareg swordman with a rune takuba and some magic.
http://www.sahara.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/b1_110.jpg

>> No.37549443

>>37549059
>>37549254
And yet, Blizzard has yet to be driven out of business by aggrieved Jamaicans/Central Americans/literal trolls. That should be instructive.

>> No.37549515

>>37549443
If you're not white and/or rich as fuck, game companies don't give a rat's ass what you think?

>> No.37549527

>>37549409
I think you're misunderstanding, chief. It's not about being "inclusive" or "PC" or whatever for the sake of diversity. It's to discuss elements of African cultures and mythologies that could be worked into an interesting fantasy setting, like has already been done for Europe, East Asia, and the Middle East. It has nothing to do with making an RPG for black people or whatever. Just because most of us are white doesn't mean we have to play white characters or in European-styled settings.

>> No.37549544

>>37549355
When people bring up Spears of Dawn the one positive thing they tend to bring up is usually "The setting is cool" and the people who review it usually mention some other African flavoured RPG they also got, but as a game, it's shallow without being a rules-light, and as a sourcebook, it's not very good either.

You'd literally be better off with whatever system you're currently making and a random history book on some African kingdom to steal things from.

>> No.37549610

>>37549527

The problem with most of African history is that it's unexceptional. Barbarians raiding one another to steal cattle? Sounds like the Irish. Trade cities on the edge of deserts? Middle East. An unstoppable army of spearmen? Sounds like the Greeks. The only reason to use African tropes in place of the better known western equivalents is for window-dressing, it adds nothing and smacks of being PC for the sake of it.

>> No.37549710

>>37549610
Jesus Christ, you could literally say that about act setting. By your logic, unless your campaign premise doesn't make sense in a western context, you might as well be playing a western setting. That's asinine.

>> No.37549753

>>37549527
But we are, and we do. I'm just pointing out that it's no mystery that there's not a wealth of African settings in a genre where most of the consumers and creators are white, and with European ancestry.

The people who feel restricted by the current available choices have every chance to make something new, but usually don't, since it's a touchy subject to approach since the people who are the most vocal about wanting something other than stuffy old Arthurian wankery or Tolkien light tend to be the same people who'll find a reason to cut you off at the ankles if you have a go at it and make it interesting enough for anyone to have an opinion about it.

I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just pointing out that OP's question isn't actually a mystery.
There is African fantasy, but for very obvious reasons not a ton. And a lot of what little there IS, tend to survive only on being different rather than being good.

When Throne of the Crescent Moon by Saladin Ahmed came out a lot of people were sucking it's dick because "it's breath of fresh air" to have something other than Euro-centric flavoured fantasy, but if you actually read it it's not a particularly well-written book, and the setting feels like someone made a D&D adventure flavoured after Disney's Aladdin.

>> No.37549801

>>37549710
No, that's not asinine, it's perfectly reasonable. He's right.

If the region or history isn't unexceptional, why should you stray from the true and tested?

By your logic, there should be more African fantasy without any actual reason other than... What exactly?

>> No.37549870

>>37548884
this is pretty on point

i think that you can capture some of the broader strokes of african tropes with some simple shit like
>storytelling tradition
>masks
>bright vibrant patterns in weaving, pottery, etc.
and then tech level is incredibly variable. maybe you have a shining metropolis built out of silver. maybe you have small nomadic clans. maybe you just have some simple middle-of-the-road rural society working for a large vassal empire.

the focus shouldn't be on the closeness to economic conditions that the cultures are experiencing, but the culture itself.

i think.

just some white guy weighing in here.

>> No.37549977

>>37549801
his point is that it's unexceptional if you're entire frame of reference is on western societies.

so if the opposite was true, like africa dominated society, it would be an african historian being like "oh yeah scots? totally unexceptional, there was this tribe that did the same thing right down to the blue warpaint."

it's not just dismissive, it's lazy.

>> No.37550154

>>37544450
>That's some Caribbean shit. Africa had shamans and shit.

Carribean religions are what you get when west Africans bring their gods over and mix them with Catholic saints and a couple of native American spirits.

But a hell of a lot of the concepts are still basically the same as they were in Africa. Most of the spirits names and iconography are similar because you're in essence, following your ancestors.

And they're more or less organized this way. Just like you'll say, "These are my family members born in Africa" and "These are my family members born in Haiti." and "These are my family members born here, where I am now."

>> No.37550227

>>37549801
I'm not saying there should be more African fantasy, but I support discussion of world-building using Africa as key inspiration.

>If the region or history isn't unexceptional, why should you stray from the true and tested?

The "exceptionalness" of the history is irrelevant. Earlier you, or someone on your side asserted "It adds nothing." That's wrong. It adds a completely different aesthetic from the usual and the social dynamics of cultures in Africa often vary differently from the West.

I mean jesus, I'm just saying "This could be interesting to discuss" and what I'm getting from you guys is "No we shouldn't discuss this, because I personally don't find it interesting, I'm reluctant to stray from the familiar, and I'm scared of looking like a PC liberal cuck."

>> No.37550280

>>37547398
In every single culture where duels are a thing, some variant of Iaido exists. Because its very practical to gain a advantage on the first move.

>>37544714
Just because its shaped, does not magically turn it into a sheat magnet.

>> No.37550386

>>37546196
>So, what's cool about it?

1. It's actually based on African Folklore and myth. It doesn't try to be historical, but it also doesn't go with basic stereotypes. It's basically "What id we made D&D, but replace Europe with Africa" and all presented in a matter of fact way.

2. It points out just how big and diverse the place actually is. There's a dozen or so human ethnic groups that are fairly distinct. Again, done in a pretty matter of fact way.

3. There's plenty of legitimately useful stuff. The poisons table is awesome. You can use armor or apply your BAB to your AC. Their take on Wizards as evil spellcasters who "steal" magic from god, and prestige classes like the Magic Eater and the guy who is such a badass metalsmith that his body takes on aspects of iron.

It's just a great book. I bought a copy years ago and I still use it. It even inspired me to look more into Sub-Saharan African cultures in general.

>> No.37550404

>>37549977
And my point is that that's exactly what he would say if the scenario you suggest was true.

If you're a proponent of thing X, it's good to start with what X would actually add to what we have right now. If it's not interesting enough to make up for the lessened appeal that comes with straying from the tried and tested, it's not strange at all that there's not more of it.

I'm not arguing that we should write off Africa completely, I'm just saying that nobody should be surprised that African fantasy is a fairly niche thing in western literature.

"look at that thing, why aren't people writing about it?" isn't enough of an argument on it's own.

I mean, of course my frame of reference is western societies, and wouldn't you know, most rpgs or fantasy books are written by people like me for people like me.

I'm not saying that you couldn't make a kickass fantasy setting inspired by Africa, there are several, but the reason most people don't know about them are the same reason they're not common, most people in the relevant target demographic don't really care.

>> No.37550464

>>37550404
It's clear some people are interested in discussing it. That's what this thread is for. You're not? Cool. Then, leave.

>> No.37550535

>>37546976

They order tons of D4's, though.

>> No.37550567

>>37549870
>storytelling tradition
>masks
>bright vibrant patterns in weaving, pottery, etc.

Is that enough to make it an interesting setting though? I mean, assuming we're going for actually good settings and not just pandering to people who want more african settings "to make things fair" And that's without even getting in on the topic of non-african cultures where all the same things existed.

I mean, you could include any of those in any mainstream fantasy setting if you wanted. Would that be enough to get your african flavour kick? And if not, doesn't that mean that you're kinda hoping for more people in leopard furs doing the Africa face for some vague undefined reason?

>> No.37550595

>>37548320
The black guy wearing a confederate flag will never not get me to laugh.

>> No.37550607

>>37549801
>By your logic, there should be more African fantasy without any actual reason other than... What exactly?

I'm not that anon, but I support exploration of African fantasy if for no other reason that it brings another style

Remember when you first started learning about the history and folklore of a culture and all the crazy shit and stories they came up with?

I enjoy that. It was fun learning about Greek deities and the Illiad and Troy. I enjoyed learning about Thor and Ragnarok. I enjoyed learning about Djinn and Simbad. I enjoyed learning about the Celestial Beuracracy and the Monkey King and the Warring states. I enjoyed learning about Kami and Shintoism and the Sengoku Jidai.


And likewise, I enjoy learning about the Berbers and Mali Empire and orisha and zombis and the like.

All of it is interesting stuff.

>> No.37550622

>>37550567
Seriously, just get out. Not only are you not actively contributing, you're hindering conversation by derailing it. It's clear you're not interested and that's fine.

>> No.37550700

>>37549515

Ermagad, white man, do game for nigga, nigga does not do game for nigga, white man, white man, why u no do game for nigga?

>> No.37550722

>>37550464
The thread is not "African worldbuilding thread"
it's literally
>Where is all the African-inspired fantasy?
But since there's so little of it, it devolved into "why is that?"

Get with the program son.

>> No.37550758

>>37550722

This. I'm all for an African wolrd building thread, but it's posts like OP's that put people on the defensive and turn the whole thing into an argument instead of a legitimate attempt at honest world building.

>> No.37550810

>>37550758
Given that OP started this whole debacle by posting this in a general thread, it's no surprise there was spillover.

>> No.37550970

>>37550758
If "Where is all the African-inspired fantasy?" puts you on the defensive, I think that's your problem. Nobody's accusing you of anything.

Why not just stop squabbling and make this the African worldbuilding thread?

>> No.37550974

>>37544602
>I can't into curved swords, /tg/. Don't curves like these make it more difficult to draw your sword quickly? What sort of scabbard do you need to hold that sort of blade?

People who need to draw their sword quickly:
>Murderers in an alley
>People who can't kill murderers in an alleyway with their bare hands.

People for whom this is not a problem:
>Warriors on a battlefield
>People who can kill murderers with their own bare hands.

>> No.37551015

>>37550227
>It adds a completely different aesthetic
For example? Masks, broad spears and tribalism is part of a fuckload of other tribes from Nagas to the Tlingit. The most exceptional thing about Sub-Saharans are the Dahomey Amazons, because they were one of the few all women units of a full time army in history, and they were good vs other Africans because the guns they got in exchange of slaves.

>> No.37551427

>tfw playing a Bedouin in an upcoming Dark Ages: Vampire game

HYPE

>> No.37551489

>>37548316
>chucking and posturing
I had a teacher once tell me that some tribes in Africa would, instead of armies killing each other, have their most skilled folk compete in feats of strength and skill, doing things like standing apart and throwing spears as close as they could at the other person without hitting them. Winning side would get the land or goods or slaves.

>> No.37551509

>>37548058
>KoDP+Imaro
Anon, sign me the fuck up. I'll give you all my tribe's cattle!

>> No.37551606

>>37544246
Well, I assume that it's largely because no one really knows much about African mythology.

The first step to producing African-inspired fantasy would be to actually familiarize everyone with the legends, myths, and stories of Africa. What sort of monsters and gods they have, and all that sort of stuff.

The thing here is that I really have no real knowledge of any of these things, nor do I know where to find a good source to immerse myself in it.

Still, I think some good African-inspired fantasy would be nice. It's certainly better than putting a white culture or mythological characters in blackface like most people do when they need "diversity".

>> No.37551670

>>37551606
Like the Unsounded ones no?

>> No.37551724

>>37551015
>For example? Masks, broad spears and tribalism is part of a fuckload of other tribes from Nagas to the Tlingit.

Which look different from the masks or spears of the Yoruba or Dogon.

>>The most exceptional thing about Sub-Saharans are the Dahomey Amazons

In the Mali Empire was home to 10% of the wolrd's population, making it one of the largest and wealthiest power in the world at the time: all without having developed the wheel.

Then there's Mansa Musa 1, the richest man who ever lived who could demolish regional economies while he was traveling abroad.

And going over to the opposite side of the continent, you have Etheopia as a bastion of Christianity when it was still getting its start in the Roman empire.

And the direct trade between the people of the Swahili merchant cities and people in what is not India, China, and beyond.

There's some unique stuff. Then again, if you really want to discount any particular civilization just because "somebody else did something similar to that too, once" then you can discount pretty much all of them except for ones coming out of Mesopotamia.

>> No.37551811

>>37551724
Stop replying to a (admittedly, intelligent) troll.

>> No.37551814

>>37551606
Just remember, Anansi for days.

>> No.37551858

>>37551724
>the richest man who ever lived who could demolish regional economies while he was traveling abroad.
Not just couldn't, casually and totally did while doing obligatory charity during his Hajj. Which kickstarted the Italian economy by proxy too and brought about the renaissance.

>> No.37551965

>>37551814
That's really the only African mythological figure I could name, and I'm really not too familiar with him anyhow.

>>37551670
Maybe?

It's just a thing I've noticed where characters from European mythology are pointlessly race-swapped for added diversity, which really just strikes me as the laziest way to inject diversity into a story.

>> No.37552143

>>37551965
>That's really the only African mythological figure I could name, and I'm really not too familiar with him anyhow.

Then pick up a book because if that's all you know, every turn of a page is going to reveal something new.

Most myths are likely to come from west Africa. That's where most slaves came from, and it was also home to most of Africa's largest empires: the Mali, Songhai, and Ghana empires.

>> No.37552258

>>37551724
>Then there's Mansa Musa 1, the richest man who ever lived who could demolish regional economies while he was traveling abroad.
Who needed to get in debt to return to his country because he squandered so much gold in his voyage, gold than was less valued to them than the salt they traded it for. Also being born into the kingdom with the most plentiful gold mines isn't a great achievement. And don't say than he created Timbuktu, because this city and his library was created be the Berbers long before the first Keita was born.
Also the Mali empire was a a heavy decentralized one, with the Mansa only having a nominal power outside the capital, the rest governed be local nobility than did or not do what the Mansa said.
Ethiopia was cool tough.
>>37551858
Mansa Musa was a very minor of all the causes than crystallized into the Italian Renaissance is like saying because some black gained a medal in the Olympians games of 1936 in Germany started the WW2, and while it fucked with the Economies of Egypt and Arabia for a few years, they stabilized in no time.

>> No.37552261

This thread is very interesting, especially the stuff about Mali, but now I am curious:Why did the african nations lagged behind when compared to Europa and the Middle East?

>> No.37552309

>>37552261
Roads. Boats. They didn't have much of that.

>> No.37552396

>>37552309
Roads and boats are made be people anon. And the malie got what, a 10% of all the human population and got no one to think about making commerce and stuff easier?

>> No.37552473

>>37552396
Same reason Northern and Western Europe lagged behind the Mediterranean: Shit's real far apart there and overland travel is difficult and slow.

>> No.37552539

>>37552396
>Roads and boats are made be people anon. And the malie got what, a 10% of all the human population and got no one to think about making commerce and stuff easier?

Well it was continental, so there would have been no major maritime trade.

The Mayans, Incans, and Aztecs, for example, built civilizations and empires of their own, yet never developed wheeled transports.

The wheel was pretty much a Mesopotamian thing. Nobody else inventged it. They justg got it from somebody who already had it.

That's how most of human history works, really. lik 99% of your major advances: laws, cities, money, agriculture, math, etc- were born in the fertile crescent and spread from there.

>> No.37552598

>>37552539
>lik 99% of your major advances: laws, cities, money, agriculture, math, etc- were born in the fertile crescent and spread from there.

Muslim detected.

You're so wrong I'm almost positive the butterfly effect of your wrongness just gave some infant cancer.

Good job.

>> No.37552665

>>37544922
No. Although it's probably eastern African aka arabic in all but name.

>> No.37552666

>>37552539
But the Sub-Sahara did have trade with others unlike the isolated Meso and south americans, specially North Africa and stuff, than did have roads and good maritime commerce (Dhows and that stuff). Also the Mansa Musa did go directly to the Meca, and he was forcibly in contact with people who could have helped him to make infrastructures to better his kingdom (specially because Engineers and stuff are after the money like everyone else).

>> No.37552692

>>37552598
>Muslim detected.

All of those inventiones predate Islam and had pretty much nothing to do with it. In fact, all of them were pretty much the invention of polytheistic people.

>> No.37552717

>>37546707
They also had hovering cars that ran on vegetable oil.

I learnt that in the Chicago school of Afrocentrist learning and feelgood story telling.

>> No.37552780

>>37544359
>gazelle mounts
I'd rather have a rhino or hippo mount.

>> No.37552824

>>37552539
Actually, Pre-Colombian civs did know the the wheel, but didn't use it because the the terrain. I also think that Mali have access to it, but also never used it in meaningful amounts.

>> No.37552834

>>37552692
Safe bet.

Arab Muslims are like European Christians.

They attribute every human achievement to their corner of the planet.

>> No.37552839

>>37547742

>Not sure what you tried to say
That as best as a undergraduate level college class in the economic history of antiquity ( 5 years ago)

> We know that iron was being worked in southern Niger around 1500 BCE

In spite of being in printed sources is wrong, by a lot. Also

> Virtually all of Africa was in the iron by by 500 AD

Is also wrong, or a large number of medieval & early modern Arab traders were lying their ass's off for no reason that I can think of other then maybe cultural imperialism. I am not saying that no African culture had iron working, I am saying that Iron working took a long ass time to make the rounds in Africa. The Bantu culture was well head of ALL of its neighbors till European traders started to poke around in south Africa

>> No.37552848

>>37544968
The majority of scientific learning throughout the ages was either European in origin through either Greece or Western Europe. Arabs just held the mantle for a couple of centuries during the dark ages,

>> No.37552935

>>37544246
>Where is all the African-inspired fantasy?
The problem with African-inspired fantasy is practically nobody has done it before. When you think fantasy, you think western Europe. Most notably England, but if you're sick of English shit there's France. Maybe Germany/Holy Roman Empire if you want to delve REALLY deeply. If you want something exotic, there's China and Japan.

That's it. Anything else, like African fantasy, would require originality. And we can't have originality in my books and games about elves and pixies, now can we?

tl;dr: African fantasy would require originality and historical research instead of just writing yet another story about knights and dragons.

>> No.37552993

>>37552848
Sorry what numerical system do you use? What is Algebra?

And China and the neighborhood had it's own stuff going on in parallel.

>> No.37553042

>>37544246
There is. The West embraced Egyptian lore and all sorts of quasi spiritualism was based on their peculiar deities are practices. I also believe the desert peoples like the Berbers can be seen in books like the wheel of time or even science fiction like Dune.

What you're really saying is why is there no Sub Saharan fantasy. And the answer to that is that there was very little SSA civilization and certain no native written language before English or Arabic. How would they have been able to write down their stories or legends?

>> No.37553093

>>37552993
Hindu numbers, and algebra like could be searched until the Babilonians.

>> No.37553125

>>37552848
>European in origin through either Greece or Western Europe.

Yeah, Western Europe was so well known for its math and philosophy before they were conquered by the Romans, and as we all know, the Romans made up all that stuff about math, philosophy, and democracy and took absolutely nothing from the Greeks.

And the Greeks were totally European. You can tell because they dealt almost entirely with what is now Egypt, Turkey, Arabia, and Persia.

>> No.37553192

>>37553093
Hindu-arabic numbers and Babylon was in the middle-east. Neither European.

>> No.37553201

All this circlejerking shit abou Arabs and the Fertile Crescent makes me wonder what the world would be like without Islam. Would the Maghreb be a Mediterranean powerhouse? Would the Middle East have a booming community of Nestorians? Would their pre-Arabic languages still be alive?

>> No.37553211

>>37553042
There's the Tifinagh and the Ge'ez writing systems.

>> No.37553273

>>37553125
The Greeks were probably a lot more European before the Turks invaded.

>> No.37553346

>>37553201
>All this circlejerking shit about whites and Europe makes me wonder what the world would be like without Christianity. Would the Italy still be a Mediterranean powerhouse? Would the Europe have a booming community of Slav(boos)? Would their Latin still be alive?

It wasn't just pre-Islam. Islam gave continuity to western philosophy and mathematics.

>> No.37553426

>>37553273
You know that /int/ meme that greeks became turks?Well, it's the other way around.

>> No.37553477

Sub-Saharan Africa has a couple problems as a place for building huge civilizations.

No long, fully navigable rivers to allow large volumes of trade between different countries. The closest you get is the Niger, and even that has issues part of the year.

Crap disease environment. Aside from sleeping sickness rendering a huge chunk of the continent a no-go zone for our large domesticated animals, you've got all the other shit that's had 2 million years to adapt to mugging our cells for their tasty nutrients.

Crap soil and climate. Most of Africa's surface is an old plateau with a sudden steep drop down to the shore, and a whole lot of the soil nutrients have been eroded away over the kiloyears. That’s during the periods with regular rainfall, because centuries-long droughts are a thing.

Which brings us to problem four: a perpetual labor crunch. You don't have the agricultural productivity to support lots of extra people, disease kills them on the occasions when you do, and you can't trade with your neighbors for food because they're in the same boat. Most of the time, the only way you're getting enough people to do shit not closely related to growing food is by buying slaves from somewhere else.

Even with all that, there were civilizations all over the place until the 300-year-long one-two punch of the massive trans-Atlantic slave trade followed by direct extractive colonialism wrecked them.

>> No.37553491

>>37553201
>All this circlejerking shit abou Arabs and the Fertile Crescent makes me wonder what the world would be like without Islam

By the time Islam had rolled around, the Middle East had already been more or less eclipsed by the Romans. The Holy Land, Mesopotamia, were all Roman provinces. They never conquered Arabia, but there really wasn't much there either but various tribes.

If anything, Islam kind of empowered the region. It united the Arabs into a powerhous that could take Mesopotamia and the rest of the lands of the southern Meditereanean and kept them from sliding into the dark ages like everything west/north of the Mediteranean did following the collapse of the Roman empire.

>>The Greeks were probably a lot more European before the Turks invaded.

I'm pretty sure they were very European- and not ammountint to much- before making much contact with the people East/South of them.

>> No.37553620

>>37553477
>Even with all that, there were civilizations all over the place until the 300-year-long one-two punch of the massive trans-Atlantic slave trade followed by direct extractive colonialism wrecked them.
SJW, plz. Arabic slave trade had been going on for much longer than that, about the 8th or 9th century until the 20th century. Secondly, direct extractive colonialsim? Because the colonial powers never built schools, railroads, hospitals, infrastructure etc., right? No no no, they were just interested in extracting resources! There was no white mans burden, there was no évolué concept, just greed.

>> No.37553702

>>37553620
>white mans burden
You know it as just a bullshit reason to justify the colonization, right?

>> No.37553750

>>37553620
Arabic slave was more extensive, less intensive. Mostly, slaves were taken as concubines or wives. Not much in the way of a labor force.

Forget the SJW boogeyman. This site is +18 not for high-school boys.

>> No.37553808

>>37553702
*was

>> No.37553908

>>37553620
>No no no, they were just interested in extracting resources! There was no white mans burden, there was no évolué concept, just greed.
You get it!

>> No.37553925

>>37553477
Dude, Africa is chock full of good farming land and isn't lacking in great bodies of water either.
Rhodesia and South Africa were for some time the bread basket of part of the world, and Africa is full of animals to tame than are adapted to the environment, and plenty of fruits and stuff to plant. And people made some fine Civilizations like the meso americans or the Malay in some shitty weather full of mosquitoes too.

>> No.37554018

>>37553620
Fewer people, longer timespan, less destructive because the goods exchanged for slaves were less attractive and therefore there was less incentive to take as many slaves as possible right now and damn the future costs.

As for the colonies, in the main they only built what was necessary to serve the primary goal of pulling as much value out as possible. And societal infrastructure of the natives was to be reorganized around that need. Go read "King Leopold's Ghost" some time, you may find it enlightening as to what colonialism looked like in the bits of Africa not directly settled by Europeans.

>> No.37554186

>>37544551
Sexy Jace Beleren get out of my mind

>> No.37554375

>>37553925
Where you had good farmland, you did tend to see states develop. There’s just a lot less of it than you'd find in Eurasia or the Americas.

Where you have plenty of animals to hunt or plants to gather, or at least can walk somewhere that does without starving or having to fight people who got there first, you don't tend to get domestication of things you plan to eat. Why bother when you can go out and get some any time you want? Where you see domestication is on the fringes where there’s not enough to go around but there might be if you help it breed and keep other people from eating it.

As for disease, Africa is pretty bad. For non-Africans, an extended stay south of the Sahara tended to be a death sentence right up into the late 1800s. For the Africans themselves, it was just another major check on population growth.

And there was civilization in a much larger part of Africa than there were states. We just tend not to consider non-state or pre-state peoples as having civilization.

>> No.37554612

>>37554186
Too late, he's already sculpting it.

>> No.37554839

>>37544445
Zing.

>>37552834
The vital difference is between the veracity of the claims.

>> No.37555334

>>37554839
But there is no difference between the claims. Both groups are full of shit.

>> No.37555556

>>37555334
This is /tg/.

>pic related

>> No.37555687

>>37552261
According to three different teachers I have, it was due to what they had to research and their situations.

First, technology is shown to develop much better in resource poor areas. It's why Europe developed well: it was cold, mountainous, and people had to get creative.
This is also why the Japanese almost invented the gatling a few years after the dutch first gave them guns during the samurai days. Because their little island nation didn't have shit, they had to get really creative with what they did have. Compare to Africa who has all the food and grains to ferment to alcohol that they'd ever need. No need to be creative to evolve up the tech ladder.

The second thing they told me was the direction of travel. People in Africa traveled up and down, through various climates, and thus they didn't invent tech because they had to keep reinventing their food sources, a similar thing occurred with the Native Americans, which is why there's like a billion different strains of corn and they had stone age tools.
On the other hand, European travel was more left to right. The climate stayed the same, so white people didn't have to remake their food constantly. This led to more free-time to create technology.

>> No.37555932

>>37555687
Sounds like a bunch of hypothesis and ontological fallacy.

>> No.37556005

>>37546080

Holy shit. I never thought I'd see a reference to The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm. Fucking good book.

>> No.37556055

>>37555932
>ontology
>From wikpedia: Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence, or reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations.
What?I am genuinely confused.

>> No.37556086

>>37555932
College World History and College Humanity and Technology. Honestly no-one knows but these answers are consistent with history outside of Africa so why not inside as well.

Besides, you have any better answers other than "Hurr durr nignog bingbong" that I'm almost positive you're going to say next?

>> No.37556200

>>37556086
>College World History and College Humanity and Technology

I lol'd

>> No.37556342

>>37556055
You just throw the word ontological out to sound intelligent when seeking to demean someone. He has a point that it sounds like mostly conjecture but its hard to prove things in the soft sciences to begin with and it makes sense intuitively so I wouldn't discount the value added by >>37555687.

>> No.37556405

>>37556200
So educate us, oh wise anon who knows more than schools. I give you two theories that apparently so wrong you laugh at them. So what is the truth?

>> No.37556450

>>37555556
^about the mentality of the guy, anon.

>> No.37556803

>>37556405
>So educate us, oh wise anon who knows more than schools. I give you two theories that apparently so wrong you laugh at them. So what is the truth?

I don't know anything about African history. But, you should never, ever treat your generalist survey history courses as being indicative of the state of the field. They're really not much better than high school, and a lot of the time are based in information which has long since been a source of contention within the actual historical field.

The position of European scientific superiority and attempts to understand why other cultures didn't develop along the same lines is also loaded with some incredible amounts of European exceptionalism. The assumption is that European science is the only valid branch of science, despite the fact that what we would consider science is a relatively recent invention of the past few centuries. Technology and science appear in other cultures in ways that are difficult to understand, much like old European traditions, but that doesn't make them any less valid. It would be wrong to say, for example, that China was less scientifically advanced than Europe throughout almost all of history. It wasn't until the 19th century that the Chinese actually became inferior, and even then much of that had to do with the fact that the Chinese state was stagnate due to their superiority.

The most frequent explanation for why Europe developed weapons allowing them to dominate the rest of the world has little to do directly with their environment necessitating technological change, but the fact that Europe was home to a multitude of well defined sovereign states that frequently went to war with one another, and were in a position where they were able to absorb much of the scientific understanding of the continents surrounding it. Stirrups, firearms, naval technologies, etc. developed outside of the continent, flowed in and then were utilized and improved upon for international war.

>> No.37557119

>>37556803
While that does have basis, the question isn't "Why didn't they develop this kind of technology" so much as "Why didn't they develop technology beyond pottery."

As for the theories outlined, the first is literally the "Paradox of Plenty but with science"

>> No.37557191

>>37556803
If you look at Alfonso de Alberqurque, he went up nearly exclusively against opponents with firearms, early cannons, well organized and extremely wealthy trading states with foreign support from Arab merchants. Look at the conquistadors in South America, most of them were extremely small and fighting large agricultural states that fielded massive armies against them.

There's more to it than weaponry and stirrups. It's social and political organization, continuity of knowledge, ambition. Europe beat the rest of the world in just about every possible human endeavor.

>> No.37557347

>>37557191
Most conquistadors have support from local forces to take on the aztec and incan empires, that where themselves suffering from massive political upheaval from the conquered people and in the case of the incas, a civil war. There's also the fact colonies only came latter, when s Spain and Portugal had alredy meaning military presence in the region to throw their weight around.

>> No.37557383

>>37557347
*Already meaningful

>> No.37557450

>tfw Egypt is your favorite ancient civilization
>tfw every time you get the chance, you make a character based around it
>tfw my next character is a jackal anthro who can send the burning sands of the Duat on his enemies
The best reason to have African settings in games.

>> No.37558044

>>37557191
>>37557347
Also, stirrups have nothing to do with the development of calvary tactics.

>> No.37558831

>>37557450
>not playing Mummy: the Curse
>not being an immortal slave to a mythic empire that spanned from North Africa to Iran

shiggy

>>
Name (leave empty)
Comment (leave empty)
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Password [?]Password used for file deletion.
Captcha
Action