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[ERROR] No.36839363 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I'm working on a new campaign for my players, testing a new system and all that, trying to introduce miniature combat, controlling multiple figures per player and some elements of strategy. I was thinking about using the LOTR miniatures, as I really like them... and it got me thinking about Middle Earth, and possible stories of the 4th Age.

Then I thought... could there ever be a return of the dark lord? I mean, I know what Gandalf said about it, that his fall would be so low, that Sauron wouldn't be able to come back from it, ever. But he could've been wrong, as far as Tolkien said, none of his caracters were omniscient. Could there be a way? Anyone has any thoughts on this matter? I'd really love to hear them.

I've got the plot all prepared, but I just need some justification for him to come back, because some of my players have read Tolkien, and they won't stand any bullshit, unless it's really well thought and planned.

>> No.36839418

>>36839363
He does actually, at the whole Revelations-style apocalypse end of the world battle.
This is Morgoth, not Sauron. I'm not sure if Sauron is relevant in that final battle.

>> No.36839482

how about dagor dagorath lite

morgoth doesn't manage to escape his prison but breaks it a little, allowing him to lend some power to sauron so he can help him escape

>> No.36839489

Well, Morgoth is supposed to bust out of the Doors of Night at the end of everything, strong as he ever was. So there's obviously some way for broken spirits to recover power over a long time. Perhaps Sauron could suck evil into himself, in a reverse process of what he and Morgoth did to corrupt the world?

Of course, doing so would make the world a better place, which he might not want to do.

If I were to do something like that, I'd have his shade hover around tainted locations like the depths of Moria, or his fortress in that one forest. Or he could go to good places and whisper corruption into peoples' ears, growing in power as his influence increases.

>> No.36839501

>>36839482
Not sure why he would, given Morgoth and Sauron actually have different objectives in mind in regards to the world.

>> No.36839533

>>36839501
it's not necessary that sauron is actually working to help morgoth break out, only that morgoth thinks he is

given sauron is a master of deception it doesn't seem out of place for him to deceive his former master

>> No.36839564

>>36839363
Sauron was utterly defeated. He cannot interact with the physical world since he cannot make a body anymore. His spirit is heavily diminished, and Gandalf was of the same kin as Sauron, so he would know much of how the nature of their spirits work. Furthermore, Saruman also faced a similar fate, and was even refused by powers that had sent the Wizards in the first place.

...

HOWEVER, a repeated theme in Tolkien's writing is that evil is part of the world. And in a manuscript set to take place in the Fourth Age details how men are growing bored of peace, and that boys are taking to 'orc play', torturing animals and beating each other. At the same time they discuss this, a 'Shadow Cult' has taken root within the Kingdom of Gondor. Before it can give anymore information though, Tolkien realized the book was shaping up to be a political thriller, which he hated, so he scrapped it.

>> No.36839580

>>36839363
>could there ever be a return of the dark lord?

Well, where there is a whip, there's a way.

>I just need some justification for him to come back, because some of my players have read Tolkien, and they won't stand any bullshit, unless it's really well thought and planned.

Sauron is still around, he just lost too much of his power to be relevant or even maintain a physical form.

If he managed to put his spectral hands on anything that can give a power boost, he would be back. Now, the question is: what in the 4th age could give him that power?

Radagast and the two Blue Wizards are still around for at least a part of the 4th Age. Maybe some agents of the Dark Lord managed to captures them and drain their power?

>> No.36839615

the Mouth of Sauron is the go to guy to have as the new dark lord. Evil never days, but the struggle and the power of the struggle grows weaker. So where the last age still had orcs and whatnot, the Mouth will primarily tear down the kingdoms using intrigue and instrife and pretty low tier magic. Finding a palantir would be an epic quest in itself.

>> No.36839640

>>36839363
Absolutely. Mostly because you can make up whatever you want.

Another Wizard could be corrupted, if any of them remain during the Fourth Age. Perhaps a Wizard wearing the mantle of The Black decides to investigate the powers of Darkness and opens up something stupid.

Theoretically, the humans could take over where the Dwarves left off and start mining too greedily, too deeply, and wake up some of the supernatural evil that lurks under the earth. Reminder that the Balrog was stronger than Sauron was and that a Balrog with the ring could accidentally middle earth.

Perhaps an Elf who decided to hang back because he's an idiot goes crazy and does something dumb. Perhaps the Dwarves aren't so dead and they go like the Fallen Realms did.

Speaking of the Fallen Realms, supposedly they worshipped Sauron as a sort of deity. That sort of worship doesn't go away overnight, perhaps it would even continue in some strange way in some corners of the world. That worship might even have it's own power, not great but seemingly great in the relative low-magic Fourth Age.

>> No.36839641

>>36839363
Mordu, the Mouth of Sauron, isn't killed like he is the movies. Instead he is forced back to the gates where the armies of Sauron show themselves. He is never listed as one of the dead, so many readers assume he didn't die. He was a Black Numenorean, so obviously long lived. Black magic has also been shown to prolong a person's life unnaturally as well.

>> No.36839663

>>36839363
Not Sauron, But Morgoth? Possible. Also, a lotta bunch of evil necromancers could build up power and pose themselves as the "new" Dark Lord, even if in the end they're just a farce

>> No.36839724

>>36839640
>Another Wizard could be corrupted, if any of them remain during the Fourth Age. Perhaps a Wizard wearing the mantle of The Black decides to investigate the powers of Darkness and opens up something stupid.

There are only five Wizards, and only 1 which we know for a fact is still around. The Blue Wizards aslo 'succeeded in their mission', so this turn about would be random at best.

>Theoretically, the humans could take over where the Dwarves left off and start mining too greedily, too deeply, and wake up some of the supernatural evil that lurks under the earth. Reminder that the Balrog was stronger than Sauron was and that a Balrog with the ring could accidentally middle earth.

That first part is reasonable but there is no proof that a Balrog with the ring could do anything other than be a pretty terrifying Balrog with the ring. I mean, that's nothing to underestimate but I hardly think it could undo Arda.

>Perhaps an Elf who decided to hang back because he's an idiot goes crazy and does something dumb. Perhaps the Dwarves aren't so dead and they go like the Fallen Realms did.
What?

>Speaking of the Fallen Realms, supposedly they worshipped Sauron as a sort of deity. That sort of worship doesn't go away overnight, perhaps it would even continue in some strange way in some corners of the world. That worship might even have it's own power, not great but seemingly great in the relative low-magic Fourth Age.
Actually, that was limited to the Haradrim, I believe. The fact he fucking dies and they see it would diminish this belief. Also he lied heavily about the nature of Gondor and the Westerners, and Aragorn's benevolence would pretty much show them that it was all lies.

>> No.36839726

>>36839418
>>36839482
>>36839489

Well you're right, the end of everything and the return of Melkor might give me the answers I'm looking for, as even when Melkor is out of space and time, out of Arda, and Iluvatar's universe... he still manages to escape the prison and gain his powers again...

>>36839564
That's true, I also read that, and also read that he disliked it a lot and scrapped it. Also this >>36839615 could be some kind of great quest. The thing is, I want the players to experience the part of Sauron that is not shown in the movies or games or whatever, I want them to see Sauron the Deciever, I want them to actually be decieved by him, and them helping him in his quest to regain power. Maybe something like finding the 9 rings and reforging them into another ring? Too cliche maybe, and also a ring again? Maybe not...

>>36839580
This could also be the answer, the blue wizards were in the east, and nothing is certain about them. Maybe he could corrupt some people into searching for them, absorbing their essence or something, and regain at least part of his power, and then make the PCs help him even more by doing other stuff

Also, Gondolin image because I like it.

>> No.36839786

>>36839724
at different points tolkien said the blue wizards succeeded and failed, same with radagast. they could have been left in middle-earth.

there could be other maiar in middle-earth too. other balrogs or recalcitrant spirits.

>> No.36839865

The thing with the Barlogs is, they weren't actually more powerful than Sauron. Yes, of course, if both engaged in combat, Sauron would probably be defeated, but there ends the Balrog's advantage over him. Balrogs lost some of their powers when they gained that power in their physical form. They're not capable of doing the same as he does.

Sauron is an excellent villian, that's why I want him to come back, and not another one, or a new one.

>> No.36839931

>>36839489
>Of course, doing so would make the world a better place

I... I actually like this idea. A lot.

>Aragorn notices the local wildlife is all friendly and helpful
>Weather and crops are always perfect for the season
>Slowly zoom in, his eyes narrow dramatically
>"Oh, no. I was afraid of this."

>> No.36840026

>>36839865
The characteristics of Sauron can be taken in essence by one or several villains. Check out what the One Ring does for the men of Angmar.

The Hill-men of Gundabad
A few scattered tribes of wild Men live in the Black Hills. They are the descendants of an evil folk, subject to the dark kingdom of Angmar, who crossed into Wilderland from Eriador at the time of the Witch-king. When the Éothéod moved into the Vale of Gundabad, they hunted these Men mercilessly, as the Northmen accused them of being workers of sorcery. They escaped extinction by learning to hide in the hills, and under them, using the network of goblin-tunnels dug under the Vale. When the folk of Eorl left these regions, the surviving Hill-men emerged from their dens and started to multiply again. Today, they are a primitive and savage folk, weakened by centuries of interbreeding and by their dealings with the Goblins and Wargs. They seldom leave their refuges under the hills, and never go far from them, as they do not dare to cross the rivers for their deathly fear of water.

Sorcery of the Hill-men
The wild men of the Black Hills have forgotten much of the sorcery their ancestors were reputed to wield, but they all still speak the language of Wargs and some among them even have the power to leave their physical bodies while sleeping at night, to prowl the land in spirit form. A gift that is much akin to that of some Beornings, it lets a hillman go to great distances in the form of a large wildwolf, to carry messages, to spy upon his enemies, and even to poison food and water supplies. Should it be killed, the body of a spirit-wolf dissolves before the dawn, leaving no trace.

>> No.36840054

>>36839931
That would be great. But how could the dark lord absorb that darkness and evilness when he doesn't even have a corporeal form?

Maybe by being in the presence of evil things, he can cleanse them, gaining power little by little...

What changes could he produce in the enviroment? Could he turn an evil person into a good one? Would this make sense at all?

>> No.36840062

>>36839564
Wouldn't that just be Game of Thrones?

>> No.36840099

What about the"things that gnaw the roots of the world"? Vaguely horrifying enough?

>> No.36840134

If Sauron was reduced to "no physical form", isn't that kinda similar to a Ring Wraith? Maybe he's just a tattered cloak now...

>> No.36840153

>>36840062

I would kek my ass off if John Snow goes to investigate the north and finds Melkor is behind it all.

>> No.36840193

>>36840134

What if sauron has no form, and cannot himself work magic, but is training a young necromancer in the dark art to free Morgoth in hopes his old master will restore his bodily form.

>> No.36840200

>>36839363
Army of giants spiders, descendants of Ungoliant, lead by corrupted wizard from the far south/east

>> No.36840237

>>36839640
>Reminder that the Balrog was stronger than Sauron

Full Power Sauron > Balrog, Sauron is literally described as the strongest maiair

>> No.36840242

>>36840193
What if LOTR evolves into Star Wars and it turns out that Sauronnis the dark side of the force?

>> No.36840306

>>36840099
Horrifying, actually, but I picture those things as mere beasts, with no qualities or attributes that would allow them to cause more than just destruction in their way. I want more than that.

>>36840193
That's a good one. I was thinking he could start corrupting someone to bring him back to life. Or maybe possess him? Can he possess anybody?

>>36840200
Giant spiders will probably be a HUGE plus on his army, but the same as Ungoliant, the thing that moves them the most is hunger, and not a lust for control, or power.

How about he starts absorbing the evil around him until he can get a more or less fair physical form, let's say it takes him at least 200 years or something. Then he maybe could start moving up in the chain of command in Gondor, and get close to the King, and repeat Númenor all over again

>> No.36840330

>>36840242

LoTR: 40k

There is always a master and an apprentice

>> No.36840364

>>36839726
My understanding is that the Nine (and any of the Seven that persisted) were consumed in the destruction of the One, and the Three were spared only because Sauron had no hand in their forging. Not 100% on that, but I'd shy away from rings.

No, you actually want to avoid a MacGuffin. For one, all the LotR stuff to date has been about them. Putting a new spin on it would work best if you don't use one, and it also helps in the Deceiver thing because the last thing you want is the players to suspect that the quest giver sending them out to collect all these treasures might have an ulterior motive (they will suspect this).

Here's how I'd go with this - Sauron is so diminished that he can never again take physical form. Don't even make changing that his goal - he's accepted his fate, and it's only made him that much more dedicated to "helping" the people of Middle Earth.

Here's what you can let Sauron do - appear in dreams and, rarely, as an insubstantial image in some medium. By that, I mean that he can make a flame seem to speak or conjure an image in mist or something, but he needs to A) have the medium available (he can't start the fire or make the mist himself), and B) expend some sort of resource to make it happen.

If you're using a system that uses Action Points or something like them, that's what he has to spend. He'll start the campaign with a handful of them, and player quests will replenish them (but he'll never be able to spend them on something new).

>continued

>> No.36840372

>>36840237
You don't realize that 'strength' could be interpreted in many different ways in Tolkien's writings and rarely ever mean the same thing.

>> No.36840389

So would this be a good place to ask some babbies-intro-to-Tolkien-lore questions?

I'm primarily interested in stuff about demographics and politics and history because I'm basically autistic without actually being autistic and have a need to make fantasy worlds like aSoIaF and Star Trek work as realistically and in-depth as possible.

>> No.36840395

>>36840364
Quests should start out genuinely altruistic as he helps a local shaman of some remote Eastern or Southern tribe build power and prosperity, until eventually Sauron moves on to guiding the party directly when he decides they're better pawns, after he's done his manifestation thing visibly to the party at least once so that when a burning bush tells them the shaman has betrayed them yadda yadda, they believe he's legitimately their god. Moreover, he'll have convinced the shaman to start being a little more tyrannical, having armed guards, and suchlike.

After they overthrow him, they become responsible for the tribe. Continue the quests, but gradually throw in slightly gray objectives. Eventually you'll want to work your way up to assassinating Orc chieftans (who've done the party no wrong and are, in fact, mostly benign, in contrast to earlier foes). Then some competing tribes. Then some Elves who attack you for your warmongering ways - don't play this up as particularly gray, and remember that most elves will have left Middle Earth and the handful left are presumably there because their pride constrains them.

Eventually they'll wind up in conflict with Gondor, and by then you want them to have found themselves ruling an empire that answers to them, personally, and is run with brutal, yet benevolent, efficiency, without ever having quite realized what was going on. This is difficult.

Victory will come in starving Sauron of his resources until he can no longer manifest outside of dreams (at which point he loses the last vestige of miraculous power he ever had and becomes little more than a nightmare).

>> No.36840419

>>36840372

For example, how many balrogs have a massive fortress and endlass armies.

How many balrogs were crafty enough to survive to the end of the third age.

>> No.36840430

>>36840372
Agreed, but Sauron is the big bad, Sauron was 2nd to morgoth, Sauron is described as the strongest, Gandalf at full power was scared of sauron, Gandalf in restricted grey form killed a balrog

One can assume Sauron trumps the average Balrog, I would say only Gothmog could beat Sauron in a straight up 1 v 1 brawl

>> No.36840436

>>36839363
Here's a thought: Sauron's spirit whispering corrupting thoughts into the mind of someone sufficiently powerful and power-hungry. Sauron knows he's never going to be able to manifest again, so he has no real goals other than to make everything terrible. He has nothing to lose, and nothing to gain except spiteful enjoyment of everyone being miserable.

>> No.36840570

>Sauron THE DECEIVER
>implying he'd evver allow a hobbit of All things to beat him. Nobody expects the mordor inquisition! Especially not this time.

>> No.36840578

>>36840389
Tolkien understood the moment you explained something it stopped being as intriguing as when it was mysterious.

That is why a vast amount of things that don't need to be explained, aren't. The nature of Khamul the Easterling, the past of the Witch-King, the lore of and culture of the Dwarves, the battles of the North. All to be imagined by the reader and not to be detailed out, because ultimately writing cannot compare to a person's own mind. There are many mysterious things in the world, and in the Hobbit the Necromancer was just something looming on the horizon unconnected to Sauron, just something else terrible and horrible akin to Smaug.

>>36840419
There were no more than 3 or 7. Durin's Bane was probably the only one to live, but there may be another. However, they are saving their strength because if the Valar knew of them, they'd take them out of the picture because much of their strength is derived from Melkor and that makes them free game, compared to someone who draws only their personal power, Sauron.

>> No.36840593

>>36840430
Untrue. It goes like this:

Gothmog > Gla

>> No.36840604

>>36840570
>Sauron just retired and now spends his time gardening

>"This shitty Ring could never grow a proper garden."

>> No.36840615

>>36840593
What the fuck 4chan.

Gothmog > Glaurung > Other Balrogs > Fire Drakes > Non-Fire Drakes > Sauron > Lesser Maia > Orc Commanders

Sauron was a minor Lieutenant, which is why people didn't think much of him. He then proceeded to shock everyone with his majesty and power.

>> No.36840640

>>36840578
>and in the Hobbit the Necromancer was just something looming on the horizon unconnected to Sauron, just something else terrible and horrible akin to Smaug.

The Necromancer was NEVER once mentioned in the Hobbit
It was only in later writings he wrote about the necromancer and how it was sauron, there was never really any mystery about it

>> No.36840712

>>36840364
>>36840395

Actually loved this, and started imagining ways of describing stuff to my players, settings and all, even some creepy music in the background, winds forming words in the mist, little campfires that whisper things into people's ears. Really really love this.

The thing is, I want him to truly find a crack in the system, find a loophole in the power-thingy, and regain power little by little. This altruistic stuff could feed him. The evil they're releasing from the world could make him, little by little, bigger. If the PCs slay an orc, and he's there, he could feed on the hate, on all the emotions the orc has at the moment of dying, and grow just a bit.

Maybe at first he can only whisper when the fire's big, or the mist is thick. But he starts having the ability to increase that fire by himself, or thicken the mist, even summon winds, he might even trick players by singing, as he used to do.

I like the fact that he's just a shadow, but I want to open up the possibility of making him more than that, and if that's accomplished, it will be the players' fault. They will bring evil into the world, and if pulled off correctly, it may be remembered as one of our best games ever.

>> No.36840720

>>36840615
>Other Balrogs > Fire Drakes > Non-Fire Drakes > Sauron >Lesser Maia

Daily reminder that a Lesser Maia beat a balrog... So is Gandalf the grye above Smaug and Sauron in terms of power

>> No.36840748

Reminder that Sauron and the Noldor did no wrong.

>> No.36840754

>>36840720
There was nothing lesser about Gandalf.

>> No.36840766

>>36840640
I'm almost 100% sure the Necromancer was mentioned several times in the Hobbit; it might not have been in the first edition of the book before Tolkien connected it more to LotR, but in the current edition Gandalf mentions him a few times.

>> No.36840776

>>36840615
You forgot Angalcon the Black

>> No.36840828

>>36840748
Sauron did nothing wrong.

>> No.36840860

>>36840776
You forgot a picture that isn't for ants.

>> No.36840886

>>36840860
Yeah i cant find my real one and got it from google
Will keep looking

>> No.36840921

>>36840886
Here's one.

>> No.36840950

>>36839931
It would not happen in the course of Aragorns lifetime. It would take millennia.

>> No.36840956

>>36840921
'Artist's interpretation'.

>> No.36840957

>>36840921
Sweet thanks

>> No.36841022

>>36840640
But anon, you're not just wrong, you're dead wrong.

>" 'How he got there I don't know, but I found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer... I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty and dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped... Don't be absurd! He is an enemy far beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together, if they could be all collected from the four corners of the world.' "

The Hobbit, Chapter One, "An Unexpected Party".

READ THE DAMN BOOKS.

>> No.36841043

>>36840956
We know he was big, we just don't know how big. He smashed three mountain peaks when he fell, but I think the artist is assuming he just landed flat on them, and didn't like, fly through them or explode or something. Still, Tolkien never specified so I'll go with whichever interpretation is the coolest. (it's the one with the big fuckin dragon)

>> No.36841074

>>36840640
>The Necromancer was NEVER once mentioned in the Hobbit


Wrong:

"Your grandfather, said the wizard slowly and grimly, gave the map to his son for safety before he went to the mines of Moria. Your father went away to try his luck with the map after your grandfather was killed; and lots of adventures of a most unpleasant sort he had, but he never got near the Mountain. How he got there I donít know, but I found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer."


"Before you could get round it in the South, you would get into the land of the Necromancer; and even you. Bilbo, won't need me to tell you tales of that black sorcerer. I don't advise you to go anywhere near the places overlooked by his dark tower! "

" It appeared that Gandalf had been to a
great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood."

>> No.36841101

>>36841043
Where the fuck did Morgoth keep him???
I know that the pits under Utumno and Angband were massive, but that dragon is the size of a continent

>> No.36841111

>>36840578
>There were no more than 3 or 7
Always hated this. It's much better if left and ambiguous. Who knows if Durin's Bane is the last, or the first to awaken?

>> No.36841159

>>36841022
>>36841074
Different editions, anons.

>> No.36841207

>>36839363
sauron got rekt but melkor is as much part of the world as ever. just dig up or make up any badguy you like.

>> No.36841216

>>36841101
He threw a sheet over him just told everyone he was remodeling his house.

>> No.36841224

Even when Gandalf said

>Concerning this thing, my lords, you now
all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he
regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so
complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is
destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee
his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was
native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power
will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice
that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a
great evil of this world will be removed.

The thing is, the Valar themselves could not forsee how Sauron could come back from the destruction of his fair form when he was in Númenor.

Gandalf is speculating here, and he's not omniscient. There MUST be a way Sauron can come back, even without the ring. Because if all he's lost is power, and capabilities, he can gain those with time, as he's shown. Even if he's just a shadow of what he once was, a 0.001%, with constant growth he might be able to reach what he once was. That would require a lot of time, and help, of course.

>> No.36841225

>>36840436
But he never wanted to make things shitty for others. He wanted nothing more than order and progress. Just, you know, means, ends, stuff.

>> No.36841227

>>36840921

Smaug is way too big in this picture.

He's just a little'un. A serpent with wings, maybe a a dozen or twenty feet long.

>> No.36841475

>>36841224
Fucked up the greentext, but the point is still there

>> No.36841607

>>36841074
When I read in in my childhood, I thougth it was either Sauron doing evil stuff before starting a full war.

>> No.36841637

>>36841159

The point is that the Necromancer appeared in the Hobbit as a looming, undefined but terrible threat, and that it was the first time the character who will be known as Sauron was mentioned in a published work. But at this point, no one could make the connection, since the Lord of the Ring wasn't written and published yet.

>>36841227

Him falling was enough to destroy what was left of Laketown, though.

>> No.36841665

>>36840921
every time i see this image ancalagon gets bigger

>> No.36841731

>>36840921
Someone please shoop in a dragon dildo on this chart.

>> No.36841961

>>36839363

OP here again, trying to get the thread back on track, although I suppose LOTR threads are prone to derailing. Any more ideas or comments on those which were posted? I found the thread reaaaaaally helpful

>> No.36842098

>>36841961
Just one question: why do you think Sauron is such a great villain?

It's important to make sure you keep the part of him you like.

>>36841665
>>36841637
>>36841227
>>36840921

Smaug and Bilbo, by Professor Tolkien himself

>> No.36842135

>>36842098
H-has Smaug actually thrown silver aside of his sleeping pile? Man, that is sweet detail.

>> No.36842209

>>36842098
Here's another one of him falling on Laketown, now the size of several buildings. Not all of Tolkiens drawings were to scale.

>> No.36842228

>>36842098
>tfw Smaug only has two legs in Tolkiens illustrations

>> No.36842242

>>36842209
>>36842228
check this one, has 4 legs and wings

>> No.36842270

>>36842098
I think he's great because of his character. He's the second in hand to Morgoth, only second to him in power, one of the most powerful beigns in Middle Earth. His ability to corrupt the ones around him is huge, I also imagine him as a master speechcrafter (is that even a word?), an extremely persuasive beign.

Also, his motivation is awesome. He just wants order. He wants to rule over everything, so as to make it perfect, the way it was supposed to be, as Melkor wanted. Melkor wanted the world to be created with one voice, because that would make it perfect. Sauron wants to be the only voice, so there is order and perfection. That's what I think at least. Of course, his means aren't the greatest, but oh well.

Also, I want my players to experience that part of Sauron, which they don't get to experience in any other game, and only can read about.

Also, I want him to come back because I fucking love him, and would love to trick the players into helping him in his comeback, that would be great.

I just don't know, he's my favorite villain, no, my favorite character of all time more or less.

>> No.36842324

>>36839489
Wait, if Morgoth's restored to full power, then how is he supposed to be beaten by anybody short of Tulkas?

>> No.36842362

>>36842270
Then bring him back. From a lore perspective, it's questionable, leaning towards "no," but for the purposes of a tabletop game? Unless your players are the biggest spergs ever they'll accept a bit of deus ex machina if it means they get to have a cool villain for their story.

>> No.36842428

>>36842362
>cool villain
I wouldn't like it. Would sound as "oh no, it's Bowser/Ganondorf/Sauron/Andross again!".
The idea of Mouth of Sauron would be better. Make him an avatar of Sauron that goes 100% power at the final battle, but Sauron itself? Lame.

>> No.36842446

>>36842270

Careful not to CHO CHO CHOOOO railroad your players into 'omg sauron is back it is your fault lol', which is currently what I feel like you really want to do.

In fact, it will be more suspensful and interesting to keep his influence subtle. Just the *threat* of Sauron returning should be enough to send shivers through their spines. There's actually no reason to have him return fully, AND depending on how spergalicious your players are this may be met with a lot of hostility.

Resurrecting old villains can be done, but it has to be done very carefully lest you transform your favourite villain into 'BBEG mary-sure of the week', which is what it sounds to me like you are doing and will only make the whole situation farsical.

>> No.36842517

>>36842446
>>36842428

It does seem to be verging on 'Bowser/Ganondorf' territory here.

Couldn't you also just have a campaign pre-lotr? Set it in the east or the million other places on middle-earth that aren't touched by the books and basically free reign for creative touch.

>> No.36842666

>>36842446
True that, might be a problem for me. But how can I do it? How can I introduce this possibility of bringing him back without even knowing?

I was thinking of Sauron showing himself one night while they're camping. And presenting himself as the spirit of an elf who refused the call of Mandos or some shit, and now can't regain the strenght it needs to make the journey, so it starts helping the players in some minor quests, and so. That way Sauron drinks the evil that the PCs are clearing away from the land...

Any suggestions as to how can I NOT railroad them?

>>36842517
That could be an option, but if I did that, why use LOTR? Why not another setting entirely? LOTR for me is what it is because if it's characters... and it would be nice to use one.

>>36842428
Also, maybe you're right. Although in my group we NEVER have big bosses or shit, the enemies are usually a group, or a handful of people, corporations, corrupted states, and so. Never big bad ones like this.

>> No.36842752

>>36842270
>speechcrafter

orator, public speaker, rhetorician, speechwriter (if his job is to write speech for others)

>>36842270
>>36842446
>>36842428
>>36842362

Sauron could come back, if he got power once again.

Just make sure you don't get trapped by the "Voldemort" problem. A powerful, vague threat hidden in the darkness can lose all credibility if it doesn't live up to one's expectation . Going from "unspeakable horror who's a lethal threat even when reduced to less than a ghost" to "can't kill a bunch of teenagers even when his life literaly depends on it" was an huge step down for Voldy.

>> No.36842825

>>36842098
Tolkien also said that picture wasn't to scale, and he made Bilbo larger than he should be so he would be easily visible.

>> No.36842852

>>36839363
There is a 4th Age campaign written that Sauron had a daughter while he was a captive in Numenor. She lived quietly on the shore of the Sea of Nurn and avoided the events of the War.

>> No.36842860

>>36842324
I think Tulkas does mostly beat him, and then Turin kills him. (But in any case, Tolkien most likely abandoned the idea of the Dagor Dagorath.)

>> No.36842894

>>36842666
>Any suggestions as to how can I NOT railroad them?

Give them the choice, dude. They may refuse the spirit's offer, but let's remember than the PCs aren't the only schmucks in the world. Others would take up the offer. Imagine this: some gondorian lost in the desert, meet some kind of "djinn" who tell him where to find water. Then, they strike a deal: the djinn will help him to become a great leader, and in exchange the gondorian will give him what he asks.


Also, I thought of something: the Barrow-wights. Those things haunt the Old Forest, even in the Fourth Age. Maybe good ol' Sauron could try to pay them a visit and steal their power?

A Barrow-whight can interact with the physical world, and can make Hobbits fall unconcious. That would be a big step up for the defeated Maia

>> No.36842908

>>36842852
Why.

Having children is equated to crafting yourself into something else is quite strenuous for both parties in the case of the Elves. The daughter of Sauron would be an immense wrecker of shit having some of his divine Maia essence woven into her being, and Numenorean lineage.

>> No.36842930

>>36842852
>Sauron had a daughter
A source please, faggot, nigger homosexual, revisionist cunt.

>> No.36842949

>>36842908
She would pretty much be a near-equivalent of Luthien

>> No.36842958

>>36842752
The thing is, how can that be accomplished? That thing about absorbing power from evil, and that is great. The PCs can even help him that way, but it's quite difficult to show them that 'spirit' or whatever, and not railroad them into helping him. Because it will be a major plot point.

Also, once he gets power, he might be able to reunite the orcs, or even take Minas Tirith from the inside for example, if he poisons the mind of the king, or stuff like that. The thing is, he has to play his cards right one way or another. The problem here would be railroading, and justifying his comeback

>> No.36843109

does anyone know what actually happened to sauron when the ring was destroyed?

in tolkiens world souls are immortal, elves when they die go to mandos but are bound to arda forever, men/dwarves/hobbits leave arda to... somewhere.

so when a maiar dies what happens? does he simply get ejected from eä and goes back to the timeless halls?

>> No.36843110

>>36842908
>Having children is equated to crafting yourself into something else is quite strenuous
So that basically means Christopher Tolkien was a pain in the ass to raise?

>> No.36843137

>>36842958
Rail roading is forcing the PCs to take the road you want them to. The rest of the world will automatically take the road you want them to, because they aren't PC.

Magic fights in Tolkien is often a contest of will. Now, between a ghost that can be spooked by a Hobbit speaking elvish, and the former Dark Lord, winner of the duel against Finrod, who happen to be one of the makers of the world and who literaly based his plan to control Middle Earth on his ability to impose his will to others, who do you think would win?

>> No.36843139

>>36842894
Of course they have a choice, but sometimes when something is too tempting, the PCs will follow it even if that's not their real intention. Once I was mastering a historical game, ancient times. My players followed Caesar all the way to Gaul just because they thought it was plot-bait! And then thought it was all rigged.

It's not only the choice, but the illusion of choice

>> No.36843162

>>36843137
*are often contests of will

>> No.36843206

>>36843139
That's a problem with the players, though.

If you're afraid of this, don't have your players meet Sauron directly, at the start. Have them have an adventure while he works with other people, and let them see the influence he has, little by little. A new leader here, a less evil place there, etc.

Then they can meet him, and mybe piece the parts together. Or simply ignore the stuff

>> No.36843535

>>36842270
Actually, Morgoth was never about order and perfection. He's a Satan analogue - pride and freedom are what drive him. He wants to express himself freely and be revered on a level with Eru, and above all else to be a Creator. Sauron's motives are definitely about order, though - he even thinks he's a servant, helping to bring about Eru's design more efficiently.

Morgoth destroys because the world ought to belong to him, and he's jealous and spiteful that it doesn't. Sauron destroys because the world isn't right, and any means are acceptable to fix it. He's plenty jealous and spiteful, but that's not his primary motivation.

>> No.36843629

>>36843206
I was thinking about this: players start the campaign doing some random mission for a friend, clearing the orc den near the farmsteads of some of his cousin or whatever, something really easy. As they do this, they notice some slightly odd thing happening, maybe the wind whispers something or whatever.

They start noticing a lot of good stuff happening around, excellent crops, animals which were sick almost magically healed, and stuff like that... now that I think of it, that's all that comes to mind regarding that, but there must be more subtle ways of cleansing 'evil'.

Anyway, then they may meet that spirit, something which has no form, just whispers. And I'll actually get players close and whisper, by a candlelight or something, I'll tell them about the spirit of the supposed elf, wanting to go to mandos and shit. They may or may not piece everything together, but the spirit asks for good deeds, and then they decide to help him or not.

Maybe the spirit can go away, after a thank you, and move on. But they still notice good things happening. Maybe the spirit stays, and starts giving more commands... some things morally greyer than others, like the ones the other anon was talking about.

I don't know how to make the transition between that and fucking evil Sauron though. Unless he abandons them after a thank you and moves on.

The apparently tribal orcs start organizing, more wights or undead start showing up. And something evil starts creeping up in the forests, players start noticing good things happen less and less, until he regains corporeal form. Or he corrupts the king.

Something like that... not sure it would make a good story tho

>> No.36843652

>>36843535
But why is Sauron trying to fix the world by enslaving everyone and shit? Doesn't make any sense. I mean, I don't see Sauron as order, I always thought he was just evil

>> No.36843722

>>36843652
The enslavement isn't what fixes the world, it's what he'll do with them once he's in charge. Honestly, I doubt he's actually thought that far ahead - he's just never satisfied that he has enough power to actually make things the way they have to be.

>> No.36843915

Bumping with some images

>> No.36844011

>>36842228

Not true.

You can actually see part of his back leg in that illustration, sticking up over the gold pile..

But he is very wyrmlike, yes.

>> No.36844103

>>36843915

That melkor is how I picture balrogs.

>> No.36844324

>>36844103
I always picture them to be more abstract and the shadow to be more flickering to create shapes that tricks the eye

>> No.36844499

>>36839865

Balrogs are for all intents and purposes, made of the same stuff as Sauron. Both are Umaiar that chose to incarnate themselves in physical bodies. And that's a deal that actually increases your general power, not weakens it.

>> No.36844584

>>36844324

Yeah. But I'm shit at drawing in paint.

Also I was too lazy to draw long reaching shadow arms.

>> No.36845171

>>36843629
Any thoughts?

>> No.36845203

>>36844499
But having an enormous physical body with all that strength and might wouldn't reduce their capabilities in other aspects? Say for example, Gandalf, who has the body of a frail old man, has good fighting capabilties, but also a HUGE inspiration aura and all that motherfucking willpower

>> No.36845571

>>36845203
>enormous physical body

You need to wash the PJ out of your hair it's falling on your keyboard. The physical descriptions of Balrogs are scant but all point to something only a little larger than a man, the key aspect was that their shadow was artificially large. In the same way you describe Gandalf as having an "aura" of inspiration (partially attributed to the ring he war.)

Gandalf too was incarnate in physical form so in a rough match up between him at a Balrog we can consider them at parity in strength and power by whatever vague definition you want to use. Since indeed, Thats. What. Happens. In. The. Book.

Later we learn Gandalf 2.0 is still afraid of facing Sauron mano y mano, and in fact if you read "Letters" you know that it was never an option available to him, not even if Gandalf possessed the Ring for even then the outcome would be uncertain.


Addressing the question on the effect of incarnation (or more precisely choosing to fashion oneself a hröa). This is really a more complex issue than I really want to get into but suffice to say everytime some vague notion of abstract or ethereal power is made manifest physically the result seems to be more powerful than before. Yes there's some cost apparently, but the net effect is greater. Morgoth investing himself into the fabric of Arda, Sauron is enhanced by forging the ring ect. So we're left with the (admittedly circular) reasoning that, physical manifestation must be stronger because otherwise why would ainur keep doing it? Perhaps the logic is that being of the matter of Arda gives you greater control over it.

So incarnation has the side effects of costing you irreplaceable "spirit energy" or whatever and subjecting you to the weariness and hurts of that body. But has the benefits of being far more effective at getting stuff done. Especially stuff like fighting Elves with terror and fire. Or stuff like fighting with men with inspiration and the sword.

>> No.36845685

>>36845571
I remember a line in the Moria chapter which said something about the wings of the Balrog stretching from one side of the chamber to the other. That's pretty fucking big I think. I remember because I had a discussion with a friend about Balrogs too, he said Tolkien never wrote they had wings, and in fact he did, large wings.

You seem to know a lot about Tolkien's legendarium, what do you think about Sauron coming back?
Is there a chance he had forseen what happened to him and as his master, invested himself into Middle-Earth in a similar or different way?

I sometimes think about a secondary ring, or object he could've built to keep himself alive, but maybe it's too lazy to use that as a plot device

>> No.36845790

>>36845685
>the wings of the Balrog
Metaphorical wings, anon. It talks about shadow spreading out from the Balrog "like wings", and then says the "wings" were spread from wall to wall. Tolkien never says that Balrogs actually had wings.

>> No.36846025

>>36845790

Basically, tolkien is poetically saying that the balrogs presence is like a shadow filling the room.

A balrog might be a big dude, but he's not an enormous giant demon you see in PJ's movies.

>> No.36846164

>>36845790
>>36846025

Maybe you're right and I should read that part again, I don't have the original tho, as I've read it in spanish, not english. Maybe the original meaning was lost in translation

>> No.36846199

>>36845685
The wings you're referring to have argued over for literally decades. Are they metaphorical shadows, or actual batwings? Since the latest drafts in The Treason of Isengard suggest the Balrogs are slightly larger than man high I come down on the side of metaphorical.

Sauron coming back is impossible I'm afraid if you're committed to sticking with canon. The dude died like 3 times. It had to end some time. Remarkable, really he did it more than once.

I don't think Sauron would invest himself into Arda the way Morgoth did.

1. Because Sauron has different goals. Morgoth was doing this so that there would be a little bit of Morgoth in everything. Morgoth is literally also the inherent evil in the world. That's not really Sauron's endgame. Tolkien goes into great detail about the motives of Sauron an Morgoth in his unpublished materials. But suffice to say Sauron thinks he can run Middle Earth more efficiently than anyone else without all the "free will" nonsense. To do this he needed no to spread himself thin but to concentrate his might coordinated blows against his enemies.

2. It was in the end not a very effective tactic. Morgoth succeeded in marring Arda irreparably but he failed in the end to unmake it, his true goal. See Morgoth spent so much of his resources and energy into his sub creations that by the end of the first age he was actually weaker than Sauron during Sauron's prime in the Second. The hosts of the Valar annihilate his Orcs and beasts and engines of war, and in doing so destroyed the majority of Morgoth's power and strength. Far better for Sauron to keep his power upgrade distilled into one object that's easy to keep track of and impossible to take from him. oh wait...

3. Investing himself into Arda probably wouldn't be an effective conduit for Sauron come back through. It apparently hasn't worked for Morgoth.

>> No.36846287

>>36845571
The Balrog in the Ralph Bakshi movie was also a pretty big guy. So is it also in several illustrations.

>> No.36846344

>>36846287
That's the worst argument I've ever heard for large balrogs.

>> No.36846459

>>36846199
I think for Morgorth to return Sauron needed to succeed, or at least keep at it. Saurons mistake was impatience, he would prefer to play his hand and force them to try to bring the ring back to mordor as opposed to putting spies and agents everywhere and gradually tearing everything down, so that nobody would have support ever, the ring would finds its way to mordor inevitably, if it wasn't for the Ringwraiths and all that bullshit he would've likely taken his time getting there, if theres nobody chasing you (at least not clearly), than there must not be a hurry, everyone involved in the plot would very quickly seem to be paranoid (imagine hiding a bunch of people in your room only for them to not have an attempt on there life made, imagine this repeatedly), and likely they would have eventually dropped there guard, thinking much of all the fear was bullshit, and then gotten brutally murdered by orcs who would either return it or try to use it for themselves, either goal allowing darkness to grow.

>> No.36846568

>>36846344
No, I'm just making the point that it is not an uncommon image for people to have of it.

>> No.36846673

>>36846459
The thing is that Sauron assumed whoever had the One Ring was trying to master it for themselves. Most people didn't have the power or strength of will necessary to master the Ring, but if someone like Gandalf had it there's a solid chance they could overthrow Sauron. That's not the kind of risk Sauron wanted to take.

>> No.36847117

>>36846459
While your scenario is possible I think Sauron's real problem was the Istari. Sauron never appreciated the threat Gandalf posed to him, could not suppose a motive other than to supplant him, and so chalked up the majority of Gandalf's actions to stupidity.

Sauron can outlast the Elves, they are not long for this world. Sauron can corrupt the heart of every man in middle Earth. Given enough time, Sauron could grind even the stubborn dwarves to dust. But as long as a single Istar stayed true to their course, Sauron was in real danger. It was Gandalf Sauron should have focused all his efforts upon. Not only because Gandalf The Ring Lord would have been capable of supplanting Sauron but because Gandalf the Grey was heart of the resistance against him.

It wasn't the elves or men he was playing a war of attrition against, it was against the Valar themselves. Sauron just has to exhaust the Valar enough so that they either give up or commit to a war that would surely destroy the last of the free people's lands of middle earth in the process. In the latter case Sauron moves East or South of the destruction and wins, free of mortal enemies. Because so long as his Ring remain in rapport with himself (it continued to provide Sauron the full measure of his original strength before the forging even while not worn), Sauron can always come back if killed.

>> No.36847145

The thing is, my autism won't let me master a game which is non-canonical, and no one here seems to agree on him returning or not returning. Some people say it could happen, some people say it most surely wouldn't. My autism is killing me.

>> No.36847544

>>36840615
Sauron wasn't exactly in the military chain of command. He was a craftsman, who figured out ways to enhance his own power.

He's really the evil shadow of Feanor.
Which says more about Feanor than Sauron, really...

>> No.36847883

>>36847544

Sauron was literally Second in command to Morgoth

>> No.36847951

>>36847883
Eventually, yes.
What I mean is that he didn't start out there.

Same with Feanor, who started out as just some blacksmith. Ok, not just SOME blacksmith, but he wasn't born royalty or anything.

>> No.36848110

>>36847951
Ah okay I see you're point. I get the feeling Sauron wasn't upset with his recognition so much as his ability to pursue his ambition with Aule

>Same with Feanor, who started out as just some blacksmith. Ok, not just SOME blacksmith, but he wasn't born royalty or anything.

Um. You might wanna do some reading.

>> No.36848366

>>36846344
It's significantly better than wings, because I haven't actually heard it thousands of times.

>> No.36848589

How about Melkor somehow managing to break a little bit of the reality he's trapped in and sending Sauron strength? I know they don't have the same objectives, but Sauron's objective can help Melkor's

>> No.36848621

>>36848589
I mean at that point you've basically eschewed any kind of logic resembling the source material so why not?

>> No.36848759

>>36848621
Well then, can you suggest something that doesn't do that? Open to ANY suggestions

>> No.36848795

>>36847145
Canonically it couldn't happen (Tolkien literally describes it as an "impossibility" in one of his letters), but on the other hand 99.99% of people won't know or care. So it's your call.

>> No.36849045

>>36848759
Despite what the headcanoneers will try to tell you there is no canonical way for Sauron or Melkor to return. It's kind of the whole point of the Lord of the Rings.

Now, if you want to travel into the world of the slightly non-canon then you need not look any farther than Dagor Dagorath, the final battle. This is the Ragnarok show down between every celebrity there ever was in Arda fighting each other in a war of Good vs. Evil at MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE. Melkor's at full power for some reason, Turin kills Melkor anyways somehow, it's good shit. But it all got scrapped the fuck out of the legendarium as time progressed.

So if you want a situation where you have Sauron come back, have it be the start of the Dagor Dagorath. There's no time frame specified, only that when it ends the universe ends. Maybe when Melkor first sneaks back in through the Door of Night he bides his time for 3000 years. Maybe the breach also empowers Sauron for the same BS unexplained reason it empowers Morgoth, just a little faster so you get the "Sauron only show" for a couple thousand years. Maybe the underlying theme is that the world is very slowly but inevitably breaking apart.

I recommend against trying to line up the real world timeline and the Middle Earth timeline if you do this. It's fine just to keep Middle Earth in perpetual fantasy land for ever. Unless you're going for the Modern Day Dagor Dagorath thing, in which case, /tg/ had a thread about that exact setting a month or two ago, search the archives.

>> No.36849804

>>36840306
>get close to the King, and repeat Numenor all over again
This is a pretty risky move for a diminished Sauron, that has only just barely managed to reconstitute himself. Takes a lot of power to deceive all the right people, plus cannot take fair shape. If you're thinking an antagonist that isn't Sauron, then you have to have a clever way to hide it from the PCs like making him seem insignificant at court or at least make several advisers that are likely sources of the court's corruption. Keep 'em guessing.

>> No.36849964

>>36849045
I suppose that could be one way to do it. After all, Morgoth summons Sauron back with full power in Dagor Dagorath, so he could return and try to cause havoc while his master plans the attack or something.

>>36849804
That's true, maybe he could be the King's Smith helper or something, a random extremely ugly dude all covered in burnt skin and bruises who is an expert at forging, thus he gains the trust of the royal smith and his family, and therefore to the king.

>> No.36849998

>>36842228
plz kill self, movie-2leg-fag

>> No.36850218

>>36842860
>and then Turin kills Morgoth
Was that before or after stabbing himself through the heart with Gurthang? The prophecy didn't come true, so prophecyfags need to stop acting like it did. Children of Hurin is canon. The third prophecy of Manwe or Mandos or Eonwe or whoever it was is (1) just a prophecy, even if it's from a really powerful dude. That doesn't mean it has already happened, it just has a possibility of happening. (2) Turin fucking stabs himself in the chest with Gurthang. He didn't kill anybody besides himself... and glaurung... and beleg... and that cripple... and a bunch of orcs... and a bunch of other innocent people I'm sure...

>> No.36850256

>>36843629
>>36845171

I don't like the "ghost sauron is sucking up all the bad in the world to make himself strong again" thing.

Like I really really really don't like it.

>> No.36850315

>>36840604
>"This shitty Ring could never grow a proper garden."

>> No.36850379

>>36850256
What would you rather have? I'd love suggestions, I need brainstorming, and maybe I can recombine ideas, or use new ones for sure.

By the way, of course it's just a prophecy, that's why I'm saying what Gandalf said about Sauron is of course based on facts, but also speculation. Nobody thought Sauron would be able to come back the first or second time, and yet he did. Not even the Valar counted on that.

>> No.36850463

>>36848621
He does not have a burden to prove this, there is no canonical way to do it. You want to run it, fine then, run it. However, just know that it is not really possible in canon.

>> No.36850466

>>36847951
>Feanor
>not royalty

>> No.36850501

>>36850463
Regaining power through nothing is actually canon, since Morgoth does it before Dagor Dagorath. He gains power through time and nothing more. So there must be a way, through time, that Sauron MIGHT just be able to do it.

>> No.36850530

>>36849964
>Sauron goes to court
well you have to do something to discredit or remove anyone with high power levels. There can be no elves at court or they'll sniff out stinky weak Sauron faster than my dog can tell if I'm hiding bacon in my pocket. Sauron at the literal height of his power, when it was literally greater than Morgoth's, still had naysayers and suspects when he came to deceive the elves of Eregion and the Numenoreans of... Numenor. Stinky 3rd generation Sauron is gonna attract a lot of suspicion from anybody with pedigree. Unless the king in no longer of Numenorean descent and Aragorn's line is broken, then I don't see stinky boil-faced Sauron III tricking him.

>> No.36850582

>>36847951
>>Ok, not just SOME blacksmith, but he wasn't born royalty or anything.
>Son of Finwe, High King of the Noldor, isn't royalty

smibbly bibbly

>> No.36850585

>>36850530
kek'd hard.

True, didn't think about that, although if he's so weak and powerless, he might be even less noticeable for suspicions. Especially if he doesn't have a prominent position. The Lord of Gifts was sniffed out by some elves because he had power, and influence, I don't think they could just tell by looking at him.

But maybe you're right and that's not a nice way of doing it.

After this thread, I'm really doubting my initial idea, I don't know if there's an actual way of doing it without being fucking cheap

>> No.36850662

>>36850585
There really isn't a way to do it without being cheap. Tolkien literally said it was impossible to bring him back, so no matter what you do you're gonna have to make shit up. I liked the ghost in the fire/dreams idea, myself. Just tweak it so that if you make big enough sacrifices of power in his name that power goes to him, since he's actually around unlike Morgoth when they were doing human sacrifice to him. Maybe he even possesses someone?

>> No.36850692

>>36850379

Alright. My main problem with the evil vacuuming Sauron is that it seems stupid and in conflict. (1) if Sauron can just suck up evil, then why didn't he do it to reconstitute himself faster in the 3rd age? Why instead did the places he infest (Far East, Dol Guldur) all become more evil by his presence, even as he was gathering more strength? Cuz he thrives not on less evil, but more evil. More evil = more strength. That's why he always turns men to evil shit like human sacrifice. It gives him more power. (2) If you're set on a physical Sauron villain, ya gotta accept that whatever you get is gonna be super weak in comparison. see >>36850530 The only thing keeping Sauron from losing absolutely everything after Numenor or Mt Doom battle Numero Uno, was his Ring Phylactery. With that gone literally all his power went with it. He has no physical power anymore at all. Just a wrathful spirit now as Gandalf puts it. If you want him to have enough power to manifest, ya gotta find a way for him to eat the power of some other great power like say Radagast, Pallando, or Alatar get cap'd by some cultists and ritually drained of their power. There's nothing like this power-sucking in any of the books though, so I don't know what you'd base it on.

If I were you, I'd just get a strong frontman that has contacted Sauron's spirit and is following his will or trying to start a Fourth Reich in the East using some evil sorceries that Sauron taught him. He can be a Sauron place holder in any way that you want: Great Deceiver, Wants to bring Order, Great Builder/Forger of Great/Powerful objects, Likes black. Hell you can even make him beautiful like Sauron was originally and can never be again. I'd go with a lost Black Numenorean from a Numenorean colony in the Far East on the shore of the Eastern Sea. You can build a whole world out there where Tolkien never drew maps. Numenoreans sailing round the world and to new continents is canon, so you can make him from anywhere.

>> No.36850841

>>36850662
Possession is a possibilty, although I think Tolkien talked about possession by spirits of dead people, that leaves out Maiar, but I guess it could be possible if the victim is weak enough.

>>36850692
Maybe you're right. Instead of power sucking I thought about him convincing the weakest and craziest of people (hobos, poor people, people who have recently lost someone in their lives, actually crazy people, whatever) to do 'favors' or sacrificies for him. Maybe stupid things at first, but growing continously towards more complicated and terrifying tasks. Maybe form another cult to Melkor, or to himself. Tolkien talked about a dark age in the 4th Age after all, even when he scrapped it. That way he could regain some powers.

The thing about capturing some of the blue wizards or Radagast is also tempting, that way I could also get a Sauron-placeholder, the one who leads the orcs or his servants and captures this mage so that he can absorb him. Don't know how could it work tho. Isn't there a reference for something like that in Silma? No one ever absorbs powers?

Thanks for all the answers!

>> No.36850915

>>36840921
That's a big dragon

>> No.36850992

>>36850841
No power sucking ever happens that I'm aware of, people only ever get amplifiers from things like rings. Ungoliant Eats the Trees of Valinor, but I don't think it makes her stronger. I'm struggling to think of anything that could work. All the Eldar that went to Valinor were definitely made stronger by the Light of the Trees. Thats something.

>> No.36851003

>>36850915
For thee.

>> No.36851035

>>36847544
Why does Tolkien make it so hard to not make Sauron sound like an analogy for Adolf Hitler?

>> No.36851036

>>36850992
Wasn't she growing as she's eating/drinking the trees of Valinor? To the point where Morgoth couldn't handle her, and had to call the Balrogs because he was getting his shit slapped

That could count as something. She's clearly eating pure energy, the lifeblood of two living beings.

>> No.36851048

>>36851035
Because he's not. He's not genocidal, and he's not an imbecile.

>> No.36851057

>>36851036
I don't remember her getting bigger, only that her thirst was insatiable, which is why she turned on Melkor for the Silmarils. But you may well be right.

>> No.36851090

>>36851057
" Later as they reached the Firth of Drengist, Ungoliant stayed Melkor, and demanded him to fullfill his promise. Melkor than gave her all the gems he had taken from Formenost save the Silmarils only, and those gems perished from the world. After devouring those gems, Ungoliant grew even bigger yet, and demanded Melkor to yield the Silmarils to him"

Not literally from the book tho, but I seem to remember exactly the same. Possibly grew when she ate the trees also, feeding on their essence and power? Maybe too stretchy...

>> No.36851096

>>36851048
He would probably try to kill all the elves if he could.

>> No.36851102

Gotta love Sauron

>> No.36851111

>>36851096
But he didn't hate them, he wanted them on their side, he knew they were powerful and that's why he tried as hard as he could to get them as allies (either corrupted, controlled or not)

>> No.36851135

>>36851090
>Quickly they came upon the mound on which Telperion and Laurelin grew and Melkor smote them with his spear and Ungoliant sucked them dry. After drinking from the two trees, Ungoliant grew to a size so fast and hideous even Melkor grew afraid

There it is. She did grow indeed.

>> No.36851257

>>36849045
>modern Dagor Dagorath
I don't suppose you could provide a link for that? I tried looking for that but apparently I didn't look hard enough, because went 6 months back I still haven't found anything like that

>> No.36851567

>>36839363
Yes Morgoth and all of his outcast creatures will be unleashed on Arda again, when the Valar will grow weary and I guess bored of maintaining this shit.
Then Ragnarök I mean Dagor Dagorath happens where Sigurd I mean Thurin Turambar will finally and ultimately kill Morgoth. Then the Valar renew and make a new music / new world and all of this will play out once again.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

or read The history is Middle-Earth book series.

As for Sauron.. no he won't return he's rekt completely and he'll be locked up until Dagor Dagorath.

In the 4th age however.. i think I read somewhere there was a sketch from Tolkien about a surviving cult of evil that begins to spread and corrup the hearts of people. I would be nice to play during the fall of Aragorn's heirs.

>> No.36851619

>>36851567
tl;dr people can be fucking evil and more cruel than any maia so you don't need him.

>> No.36852215

>>36839726
>want them all to see Sayton the deceiver
Why set it in the Fourth Age? Why not set it in the Second Age while Sauron was doing his deceiving? If you wanna play that kinda game AND appease your tolkien autistsetting it in the second age seems like the simplest solution to me.

>> No.36852237

Morgoth could bring back Sauron if he wanted

>> No.36852964

Daily reminder that Uruks, described by tolkien as much taller and bigger than normal orcs, but shorter than the average man, are around 180 cm (6 ft. for you amerifags) tall.

This means that Human average height in the middle earth can be considered at least 200 cm ( around 7 ft.)
Average humans of middle earth are 2 meters tall.

Everyone in Middle Earth is a fucking basketball player

>> No.36852999

>>36852964
the uruk-hai are pretty much as tall as men, i think it's a stretch to give the average man an extra foot

>> No.36853012

>>36852999
Ok then half a foot? Still not so average height

>> No.36853060

Gotta say, playing in a campaign where you were the apprentice/highest ranking survivor of the now fallen dark lord sounds like a blast. Reunite the broken blade, travel far and abroad in hunt of lost knowledge, spew lies in the ears of men.

>> No.36853078

>>36853012
the average might be skewed upward by the numenoreans

>> No.36853216

>>36852964
i hated the fact that the fucking MORIA cave orcs were bigger than men and fully armored in the third hobbit movie. i couldn't tell orc from dwarf in the clean and shiny cgi shitstorm

>> No.36853286

>>36853216
i need to add that it was stated the orcs were bred for war so maybe there wasn't that many of them in the end. i think we only saw how many dwarves there was in the battle of five armies

>> No.36853991

>>36852964
>everyone in Middle Earth is 2m tall
So they're Dutch?

>> No.36854064

>>36853991
Dutch people are tiny, bro.

>> No.36854085

>>36840766
he totally was just never mentioned to be Sauron although Gandalf did expressly say that el necro was not what he originally seemed and was actually much more powerful which is why Gandalf was late in returning

>> No.36854130

>>36854064
>tallest people on earth
>tiny
You from some weird parallel dimension?

>> No.36854158

>>36853991

Dude, I'm 6"5 and went to Holland expecting to be among my fellow tall-folk and no, their average is pretty normal for Europe. Like, I went to their dedicated big-and-tall clothes shops to buy some shoes and their stuff was too small for me.

>> No.36854181

>>36854158
>giants aren't real

Way to piss in my cereal, anon

>> No.36854203

>>36854130
I've been there once, and didn't think it was anything special, being a Swede. Subjective viewpoint skewing it for me then, since I looked it up and it seems as if they do have the claim on the tallest people in the world. Go figure.

>> No.36854210

>>36854158
I am also 6'5". As are at least 5 of my Uni colleagues, 2 of my colleagues at work, and several of my friends. This on a group of people of about 100. The genuine Dutch and Frisians are on average quite tall. It's the Turks, Poles and shit who drag it down and make us seem smaller.
Still, not EVERY Dutchman is going to be 6'5". Average is like 6'1".

>> No.36854448

>>36851567
I know, but as I said earlier, Middle Earth is not the same without Sauron, and he's the real enemy there, he's the greater threat PCs can feel.

At the same time >>36852215 this could be an option, but the Second Age doesn't have the same peoples in Middle Earth as the third one, and I think it would be extremely fun for the players to see what consequences the vanquishing of Sauron brought to Middle Earth, all the places to explore, clans of Orcs roaming in the mountains, but not actually guided by someone, roaming bands of Elves who stayed because of their pride, hunting down the last vestiges of darkness.

>> No.36854672

>>36850501
>Regaining power through nothing is actually canon, since Morgoth does it before Dagor Dagorath.
You realize Dagor Dagorath isn't canon, right?

>> No.36854712

>>36839564
>Tolkien realized the book was shaping up to be a political thriller, which he hated, so he scrapped it.

Damnit Tolkien, you could have left your comfort zone a little

>> No.36854853

I think Sauron returning might be actually what The Lord of the Rings is about. Hell, Tolkien's theme is that evil is always returning, every time. He even said that in LotR Sauron just represents pure evil. And that's why I think it should be possible for him to come back. After all, he was always weak, and he always managed to get power again.

I mean, let's say he lost 90% of his power with the ring, well then there is still that 10%. Of course, that 10% is also diminished because he was defeated, but it will eventually become 10%. And that can be increased. Power can ALWAYS be increased in Tolkien's world. That's why he was stronger than Melkor once, that's because he GAINED power.

So yes, it would be canon I think.

>> No.36855654

>>36839363
Love that image

>> No.36856145

>>36854853
To quote Tolkien:
>The impossibility of [Sauron] re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.

>> No.36858147

I have a related question, but not so related.

What would've happened if the Nazgûl took the ring from Frodo while he was in the Shire, but they got intercepted by some patrols of Dunedain/Rohirrim/Gondorians, and the ring was

A) Taken by the interceptors.
B) Lost once more, for years.

Would the second option slow Sauron down a bit?

>> No.36858736

>>36858147
> Taken by interceptors
The ring would've just kept attracting the nazguls until the new owner got shanked and the ring retrieved

>Lost once more, for years.
Probably, but not so much. Sauron's armies were already besieging all major human realms. Even without the ring, he would've eventually won for sheer attrition.

>> No.36858907

>>36839363
I'm not a fan of Sauron returning at all, nor am I really a fan of the prospect of a sequel to LotR at all. Tolkien put it well when he talked about why he scrapped his own sequel after just a few (one?) draft.

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion ; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."

>> No.36860395

>>36858736
Exactly. Throwing the One Ring into deep ocean would screw everything. Mordor would win the war.

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