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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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33773096 No.33773096 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>Players have to kill an 'invincible' troll on a rampage
>"Well trolls are obviously invincible if you don't burn them, everyone knows that" says the party lead.
>Find troll, a nasty fucker wielding a dragon's armbone as a club and wearing stout armor
>Troll shrugs off all of their fire attacks as they do no damage, meaning they can't stop its regeneration.
>Instead of actually thinking straight, the players decide to start whining and crying about how it's not fair, and that trolls are meant to be weak to fire.
>No they fucking aren't. It just stops their regeneration.
>Other players continue to argue over how it's "not fair" for 10 minutes when said troll obviously came across something like rings of fire resistance.
>I grab my sheet and leave because I'm not even going to bother hearing the end of it.
Whose dick do I have to suck to find a group that isn't full retard? Detecting magic auras, looking at its hand to see if it has any bling, hacking off its hand if it does, running off until we get an actual plan, but no.

Got any stories?

>> No.33773133

>>33773096
Wow. These guys wouldn't last 15 minutes in one of my campaigns. I make up my own monsters.

>> No.33773144

>>33773096
>armored "regular" troll with rings of fire resistance
if they were level 3 or less you are a dick

>> No.33773157

>>33773144
>>I grab my sheet and leave because I'm not even going to bother hearing the end of it.
Dirty illiterate!

>> No.33773161

>>33773096

doesn't acid work on them as well? Or was that only AD&D?

>> No.33773175

>>33773157
GM's are forbidden to carry sheets of papers?
well then what was the power level and party composition?

>> No.33773180

>>33773096
That what happen when the players get spoon-fed by the GM for too long.

I have a nice GM, but the guy really try too hard to make everyone happy. My old gaming group (that I thankfully left before this happened) collapsed into a pile of shit when the players decided to throw a bitchfit at the GM based on the fact that they thought: "Everone but me is overpowered". And they were encouraged by a guy who thought the GM wanted to sleep with his girlfriend.

>> No.33773185

Just knock it out and finish it off anyway, shit's not that complicated.

>> No.33773190

>>33773161
depending on party composition there are spells like color spray and the like which you can use to just fuck with his fighting capacities while the rest of the people find a way to render it prone or seal him in his cave

>> No.33773203

>>33773180
Social interactions are a tricky mistress.

>> No.33773206

>>33773161
Depends of the troll and the game. Some trolls are even naturaly immune to fire. But yes, acid tends to work as well.

>> No.33773212

>>33773175
I fail to see what the party's power level has to do with their own inability to consider the fact that a troll that is immune to fire means that magical shenanigans are afoot.

>> No.33773215

>>33773190

Or you could knock it the fuck out, hogtie it with chains, that off the fucking fire resistance ring and cook that fucker on a spit!

>> No.33773221

>>33773096
the real question is, OP, do they rape her?

>> No.33773226
File: 73 KB, 639x960, varying degrees of fun.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33773226

>>33773096
>whining ooc
>not roleplaying it

>> No.33773232

>>33773144
It's not a "regular" troll. It's an "invincible" troll on a rampage.

>> No.33773235

>>33773190
>>33773161
>>33773144
We were playing Savage Worlds, you mongoloids.

>> No.33773238

>>33773180
I managed to train my players that the guy standing in front of them isn't always the bad guy, but it backfired once.

I had an NPC in league with abyssal forces that one of my PCs tried to parley with. I killed the PC to make a point.

>> No.33773250

>>33773221
Anally.

>> No.33773254

>>33773235

Hold on lets recheck OP's post

Nope didn't say jack shit out the system..

My point still stands, Knock it the fuck out, hog tie it, and slow roast it!

>> No.33773266

>>33773221
Yes. The Guts saves her.

With his dick.

http://pururin.com/gallery/11671/shiru-shiru-schierke.html

>> No.33773272

>>33773232
I meant OP said it was just a troll not a dire or war troll
a regular troll with some magic equipment is not THAT strong anyways

>> No.33773315

>>33773272
>Players have to kill an 'invincible' troll on a rampage
>'invincible' troll on a rampage
>rampage
Shouldn't even the slowest party members realize that something's afoot?

>> No.33773321

>>33773096
>schierke_discovers_4chan.jpg

>> No.33773336

>>33773203
Tell me about it. Though the GM really tends to do the weird thing to put the PCs in an hopeless situation and then it turns into a Monty Haul.

>> No.33773364

>>33773144
If someone tells you about an invincible monster causing death and destruction and you go and fight it, that's YOUR problem.

>> No.33773390

>>33773364
most peasants would call a rust monster invincible after it ate their pitchforks

>> No.33773398

>>33773364
There has to be an understanding between GM and players, here. Of course the PCs will go fight the monster; they're adventurers, that is what they fucking do. The GM has the responsibility to not dick them over.

Then again, if the players are just dumb, it's all on them.

>> No.33773413

>>33773398
>>33773212
this is why the powerlevel of the party matter, three level 1-2 adventurers are going to be overwhelmed by this troll

>> No.33773433

>>33773398
I see a troll wielding a dragon bone as a club, I'm going in the other direction.

>> No.33773447

>>33773433
how do you know its a dragon bone and not some giant's bone or something else

>> No.33773470

>>33773413
Icewind Dale 2 says "hi"

>> No.33773489

>>33773096
>Describes Troll as invincible
>Turns out it actually is
>Not expecting people to bitch and complain

You see what most shit-DMs think "Puzzles" are is "Read my mind for this one convoluted solution I've cooked up that you would have no way of thinking about, and then it all proceeds to fail anyways because I don't fucking understand mechanics".

>> No.33773506

>>33773180
See the correct response in a situation like this is to retreat and think of a plan, not to whine to the GM that the encounter isn't easy enough.

>> No.33773522

>>33773489
What would you do then if you came across a troll immune to fire and acid?

>> No.33773527

>>33773266
Jes-us fucking Chrimanintly, what the fuck.

>> No.33773529

>>33773489
So how you would have run the abovementioned scenario as a GM then?

>> No.33773576

>>33773096
>Party starts metagaming
>Then they start complaining

My sympathies, OP.

>> No.33773578

>>33773506
You're absolutely right, but well, spoon-fed players. They can't think about the game by themselves any longer, most of the time

For them, it isn't even rail-roading, it's taking a shortcut.

>> No.33773612

>>33773522
Not the guy you're replying to, but I would drop enough things on him to immobilise him, them damages him so much his regeneration won't take effect before he dies.

>> No.33773615

>>33773489
A monster that covers its weakness isn't a puzzle, it's a monster that's got a brain. Ever hear the phrase "If he had a brain, he'd be dangerous"?

>> No.33773633

>>33773529
the scenario can be run without much problems if the characters are like level 5, even three level 5 monks should be able to subdue the thing
at level 3 if the party is balanced there should be no problem once they find out it has magical items

>> No.33773651

>>33773096
You want to know why they're bitching?
One of them boasts that fire is the solution, and then suddenly it's immune to fire for whatever unidentifiable reason.

It awfully sounds like the DM is doing it just to spite the player, and by that extent also punishing the rest of the party for whatever transgression that player has caused.

>> No.33773662

>>33773633
So the players were wrong to complain, then?

>> No.33773680

>>33773489
I agree with you in general but I don't think this is applicable to this case.

Seriously, these are metagaming fucks of the worst kind.

>> No.33773708

>>33773578
I really, really dislike the 'four level-appropriate encounters per day' mindset. I don't remember enemies being easily manageable being the expectation before 3.5, really. Are people more pussified today or am I just getting old?

>> No.33773732

>>33773615
it has rings of fire resistance, a club, and some armor
once you go against it and find fire to be of little use you can retreat and come back with acid
or if you have enough muscle just hit it fast and strong till it loses consciousness

>> No.33773749

>>33773708
People like to have encounters where their characters get to do what they are designed to do, who knew?

>> No.33773754

>>33773662
i don't know because i don't know what the players had
if they were all level 1 goblins they had no way of doing anything to it

>> No.33773783

>>33773749
It just feels so artificial, is all. It's, like, if you go out your way to get into fights there's really no limit to how many 'encounters' you can find, you know?

>> No.33773784

>>33773749
I blame the 3.5 "you can only do whats already been written up in the rules" mindset. The whole book shoves new GMs into only sending out level appropriate encounters and that players can only use x y z prestatted class abilities or general rules to get anything done.

>> No.33773798

>>33773680
what if one of them has lore relevant to the nature of trolls, then the party has a member who knows in-character that trolls can be dealt damage normally by fire and acid

>> No.33773845

>>33773398
>The GM has the responsibility to not dick them over.

See, you're wrong, and I'll tell you why. If you roll to hit something and then roll your damage and the DM says "The monster seems to shrug off your hit." HE'S LITERALLY TELLING YOU TO FIGURE OUT ANOTHER WAY. You ever fucking play a video game where to kill the boss you gotta destroy his shield machines or whatever? Yeah, in the game, you can't just stand there swinging away at the boss and cry because thinking is hard and you just want to be able to kill him and it's not fair.

Why is it that players just shut down when someone expects them to think? ANY sort of puzzle or hurdle or outside-the-box thinking, you might as well remove because players by definition are not capable of that kind of thought.

>> No.33773846

>this thread

Abloobloobloo, my meta-knowledge of the monster manual didn't save me! Oh no, a monster that uses magical means of protection to cover its weak spot, much like a player character or intelligent being would! Clearly that GM is only out to fuck over his poor players! Woe is me! God forbid my self-insert special snowflake encounters any sort of challenge or danger!

Grow a pair you fucking babies.

>> No.33773880

>>33773096
That isn't Berserk.

That isn't Berserk at all...

At least it ends in a funny way. I forgot about that.

>> No.33773887

>>33773798
"Gee, my knowledge here doesn't seem to be working. Maybe we can try something else?"

Also, how about fucking asking what they're wearing? That's the first thing I do in any fight.

>> No.33773941

>>33773364
The thing is, they had to.

Apparently that was their quest, either that or the OP is a fuckwit.

>> No.33773947

>>33773845
>Why is it that players just shut down when someone expects them to think?

That is a fantastic question. Honestly, it baffles me to no end. It's the same when enemies retreat. "What do you mean, I don't get to loot his corpse? It's almost as if this intelligent being valued its life more than a 'fair fight' and is willing to use all its abilities to escape if it feels like it might die from my next attack! So unfair!"

When did players fall into such a video-gamey mindset and expect every enemy to fight to the death and everything to be predictable and working as advertised to the point where unusual hindrances or behaviors completely flip their baby-switch?

And don't say it's D&D's fault, I've seen this happen in literally every system I've ever played.

>> No.33773978

>>33773887
i don't think the GM would go ahead and tell you "Rings of Fire resistance"
but yeah i assume they asked, so i would answer back "assorted, battered armor pieces of its victims and a large bone wielded as a club" tbh i would not mention the rings, they are probably covered and would need some rolling and the player insistence for that

>> No.33774025

>>33773846
This is exactly why I put a lot of work into removing as much meta information as I can from my games. I've been DMing a long time, and the one major thing I've learned is that absolutely nothing good comes from players having meta-game knowledge.

That means no visible rolls for mental skills, no XP, no monster names or stats, no health numbers, etc. You know what your character knows, because apparently that's the only way I can keep people from ruining every fight by clamoring to roll Perceptio when someone fails.

>>33773947
Oh god the fights too. Any enemy with at least basic intelligence that isn't blinded by rage or some other emotion that causes them to fight to the death, is likely going to start using what spells and powers it has to escape the fight by the time it has less than half health.

What this means is that sometimes you get like, Obscuring Mist so the thing can retreat. What happens when an enemy casts Obscuring Mists? The players cry, hole themselves up in a corner, and pout that I'm shutting them down and preventing them from being able to do anything. I wish I was making that up.

>> No.33774058

>>33773096
They didn't beat it into unconsciousness then drown it in troll-barrels for later siege warfare use?

>> No.33774062
File: 113 KB, 468x525, mongrelman.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33774062

>Be forever DM
>Group's That Guy keeps on turning up late
>Usually two to three hours late, of course we HAVE to wait for him
>Never apologizes, just angrily makes shit excuses
>Ask him why he's late so often
>"Well we don't start until a couple of hours after you guys say we do, so there's no point in me turning up on time"
>OH GEE, I WONDER WHY, YOU LITTLE SHIT?
>Tell him that he's banned from my next campaign if he doesn't get his shit together
>He doesn't get his shit together
>The week before this campaign began, one of my other players asked if it was ready on facebook
>That Guy didn't know if it was the campaign I was running previously (died due Dark Souls 2 being released) or something else
>Tell him it's my new campaign and he's banned
>Here is how his "logical" argument went:

>Questioning, then acting like he didn't understand what I was talking about
>Outright denial "I'm not banned."
>Insults
>A promise that he would clean up his act and be ready for the next game
>Posting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A when I refused to overturn his ban

Apparently, he was so angry that he couldn't move. He hasn't turned up to a session since, despite my campaign dying a horrible death a few weeks ago.
Fortunately, the following outcomes came about:
>Rest of the players suddenly fear Rule 0
>Players who might have had busy schedules suddenly couldn't play
>Players stop making joke characters based on racial stereotypes, people they don't like and one-dimensional characters from film and TV

That being said, my already-meager social life may die soon due to DoTA2.
>tfw canceled last week's session because everyone else wanted to play DoTA 2

>> No.33774067

>>33773880
Since Berserk will never end, that is the final chapter in my personal canon.

>> No.33774078

>>33773522
>What would you do then if you came across a troll immune to fire and acid?

Try dealing with it in a way that doesn't involve trying to deal fire or acid damage? You know, the way you deal with any other creaturethat's immune to fire and acid.

Basicaly, the players were trying to metagame, and became upset because it didn't work.

>> No.33774094

>>33773522
Are we playing D&D? Are we on the board rolling in initative order?
To be completely honest I'd do what any other Tom Dick and Harry does and then Smash and slash it because a single troll's regent is actually quite pathetic compared to 4+ people hitting it. Subdue it with some kind of magic before and/or after, and coup de grace it.

At the point in which it then proceeds to regrow its head because there is LITERALLY NO MEANS TO KILL IT BESIDES ACID AND FIRE DAMAGE OR IT GETS BACK UP, is when I start bitching and complaining.

>>33773529
For one, don't use trolls. Trolls mechanically by themselves are the "read my mind for the singular solution you may or may not have available to you" type of puzzle, but are only redeemed by the fact that it's now common knowledge what to do to a troll.

However if I'm moronic enough to be insistent that an acid/fire immune troll is a good idea for an encounter. I'd not lock the solution behind a perception or Knowledge roll because the party could quite possibly fail every one of them, and that is crucial information.
As part of describing the troll I have a nice big daemonic unholy symbol hanging from a chain on his neck glowing red and green, then ask for a knowlege(religion) check and and a Knowledge(arcana) check. Even if nobody gets the low DC. The point is thoroughly emphasized the necklace is important.
And just to make sure, I describe fire and acid damage being eaten by the amulet if they somehow missed that.
And then Have a lucky crit smash it, or have it fall off the first time it goes unconscious from physical damage, if the party is STILL not getting it.

>>33773615
Yes, but trolls are intentionally stupid for a damned good reason

>> No.33774095

>>33773522
>and acid?
it was resistant to fire only
not immune to both fire and acid

>> No.33774117

>>33773947
>And don't say it's D&D's fault, I've seen this happen in literally every system I've ever played.

What do you think every system you've ever played has been based on?

What, you think all those videogames made up classes, levels, experience points, and HP and he idea that Warriors are meatshields, Rogues do spike damage, Priests heal/buff, and Mages AoE and debuff out of thin air?

>> No.33774135

>>33774094
>Yes, but trolls are intentionally stupid for a damned good reason

One million trolls eating one million travelers might at some point lead to one troll stumbling upon a ring of fire resistance, which he decides to wear because it looks pretty and makes him feel like a delicate flower.

>> No.33774155

>>33774135
>>Yes, but trolls are intentionally stupid for a damned good reason

Trolls smart enough to wear armor or wield weapons is not some unthinkable concept. They even exist in D&D.

>> No.33774189

>>33774155
What about trolls smart enough to not only locate enchanted jewelry but wear them?

>> No.33774191

>>33774078
>>33774094
troll can be offed by knocking them down then delivering a killing blow
you can also just chain them, they are not too strong for iron chains
>>33774094
the troll is wearing rings, not an amulet, and they confer resistance, not immunity, and only towards fire
they probably did not deal damage to it because the fire-based sources they had were pathetic, which again makes me wonder about the level/size of the party
3-4 level 3-4 martial PCs can leave a troll unconscious without risking too much themselves
color spray and other shit can seriously fuck up the troll chances of doing anything useful
>>33774094
the troll could be somebody's pet

>> No.33774213

My group is incredibly, fantastically dumb.
>PC's visit the temple of mute monks
>this cult considers making noise a great sin
>inscriptions stating that is on every fucking second wall
>stumble upon a spirit showing them a tablet with a riddle
>"what companion follows you only when you are alone"
>players complain that the riddle is too cryptic

>> No.33774226

>>33774213
What was the answer? Sound doesn't seem like the answer
.

>> No.33774239

>>33774078
I hope you realize that the stat block and abilities of a troll would let it do whatever the fuck it wants without recourse if it got fire and acid immunity.

Cut its head off? Doesn't matter it regrows unless you hit it with fire or acid.
Kick it down a cliff leaving it a bloody paste? Doesn't matter it regrows unless you hit it with fire or acid. It can then proceed to take 20 and start climbing up the cliff for as long a it likes since it does not have to worry about falling and dying.

>> No.33774252

>>33774226
Silence probably, i'm shit at riddles

>> No.33774253

>>33774226
It's silence, duh.

>> No.33774267

>>33773447
Black or metallic bones?

>> No.33774268

>>33774226
>>33774252
>>33774253

Silence wouldn't fit, because you can make lots of noise by yourself. If this was the answer, shit riddle.

>> No.33774295

>>33774135
>One million trolls eating one million travelers might at some point lead to one troll stumbling upon a ring of fire resistance

You realize this statement is Forgotten realms level of retarded right?
Even then, putting it on instead of eating it also another one in million crapshoot.

>> No.33774297

>>33773947
I say it's the MMORPGs' fault. Too many fucking stupid enemies with predictable patterns and no personalities.

Same with interacting with NPCs. I'm thinking to have a Rogue pretending to be a Druid as a minor antagonist in my next campaing and I'm pretty sure none of my players are going to question it.

>> No.33774328

>>33774239
>I hope you realize that the stat block and abilities of a troll would let it do whatever the fuck it wants without recourse if it got fire and acid immunity.
Tell ya how I'd handle something like that (in DnD)- lure into falling trap, roll boulder/ dirt on top, Mud to Stone

there are other ways of dealing with problems than swinging a sword at it till HP are gone

>> No.33774353

>>33774268
You know what?

Dick, your most trusted companion even when you are alone.

>> No.33774354

>>33774213
>only when you are alone
>only
>temple full of monksnot making noise
>only when you are alone
>only
Shit riddle.

>> No.33774355

>>33773947
Let's say you're a man who's blind and deaf, and the only time you see or hear is when you pray and ask to see and hear for one moment.

Depending on how much the dice gods like you (with your perception checks), you might see a whole lot, or jack fucking shit.

If the troll is wearing a ring of fire resistance, they aren't going to be looking at its fingers. They'll be looking at it's armor and its fucking dragonbone club.

You *have* to give the players a bone. This is literally your job. You are the window through which your players see your world. You are the one who determines what and how much they see. You. Not them. They aren't making this shit up. You are.

If they aren't cooperating and even occasionally asking for perception or spot checks or whatever equivalent may or may not exist in Savage Worlds, then yeah, you can hammer their asses for not even trying.

But you need to hand-hold them like you would a blind person. Because they are. Only you, the man with one eye, can see everything in the game. You know everything, so of course you'd say "the solution is obvious."

You could have hand-held them by saying "Huh, did you just see a glint come off his hand? That's odd, troll's hands aren't metallic..."

Then if they refused to even look closer to see the fire ring, then you can beat em up for it.

>> No.33774356

>>33774117
>the idea that Warriors are meatshields, Rogues do spike damage, Priests heal/buff, and Mages AoE and debuff out of thin air?
Those have been a thing since biblical times.

>> No.33774374

>>33774268
Tada.
Now you've been welcomed to the world of DMs that think their shitty riddles and "one-answer combat puzzles" were gifted to them by fucking Gygax himself.

That's how most of shit goes down.

>> No.33774377

>>33774213
"That'd be Fred, my stalker. He's painfully shy, and wouldn't dream of following me when a I'm with other people. a bit creepy, but by now he's like an old friend. How do you guys know Fred?"

>> No.33774402

>>33774239
>the stat block and abilities of a troll would let it do whatever the fuck it wants without recourse if it got fire and acid immunity.
you can k.o. it by dealing enough damage, which the troll would soak as nonlethal, they you finish it off, if the troll passes the fortitude check you can just keep people mauling it while someone searches for the source of it resistance to fire
or you know, just bury it deep enough if all PCs are dumb and have sausage fingers
again this depends on party level/size, 2 level 2 fighters and a lever 3 ranger are not going to deal enough nonlethal damage to k.o. it

>> No.33774413

>>33774213
You don't have to be alone to get silence, though. Heck, being alone won't make you silent.

Not that your riddle is too cryptic or anything.

>> No.33774435

>>33774135
>>33774155
Who says the Troll put on the ring by choice?

Maybe the big bad of the campaign decided to put him to sleep, slip the ring on and cackle as his all powerful weapon will cause the adventurers to quit.

>> No.33774439

>>33774267
metallic bones, fair enough, but some PC must have knowledge of this being the trademark of a dragon bone
black bones, lots of things have those and bones can become blackened by other reasons

>> No.33774447

>>33774374
Or you can respect the spirit of the game. Just a thought.

>> No.33774464

>>33774377
>Fred made the riddle
>He only wanted you to ackowledge him
>He's now blushing you called him an old friend in public

>> No.33774481

>>33774189
>What about trolls smart enough to not only locate enchanted jewelry but wear them?

Yeah, even in D&D. The BASE troll has an intelligence of 6, which is above animal intelligence. They can also advance by class, and the MM gives us a 6th level troll RANGER wearing chain armor, wiedling an axe and javelins, and carrying standard treasure.

>>33774239
>>I hope you realize that the stat block and abilities of a troll would let it do whatever the fuck it wants without recourse if it got fire and acid immunity.

You can still kill it. All Fire/acid do in D&D is prevent regeneration from working for a round. If you're DEAD, regeneratio stops working.

>> No.33774650

>>33773096
doesn't acid have the same effect?

Did not one of them think of rolling lore to find out whether they knew anything about trolls?

>> No.33774687

>>33774650
>doesn't acid have the same effect?
yes
>>33774650
>Did not one of them think of rolling lore to find out whether they knew anything about trolls?
they most certainly did or else they would not know trolls are weak to fire

>> No.33774701

>>33773489
>Turns out it actually is
it's not. It had other weaknesses besides the obvious one they picked. They were just too dumb to look for them.

Fuck help them if they ever go after a vampire, because those fucks are smart enough to cover their weaknesses deliberately.

>> No.33774731

>>33774687
>they most certainly did or else they would not know trolls are weak to fire

Oh no, they knew that due to blatant metagaming.

>> No.33774732
File: 515 KB, 1383x1375, troll.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33774732

The first time I played actual D&D was when I was 18 and going to university. When I heard that trolls were creature that regenerated health and could only die by acid or fire i was confused as fuck. That applied in no way to the trolls i knew from growing up and certainly would not be something i would assume in a non-D&D setting.

Would I be wrong if I started a non-D&D game and went for classic trolls instead of gygax trolls?

>> No.33774751

>>33774732

There is no wrong way to play, as long as everybody has fun.

I'd be stoked to see non-Gygax trolls.

>> No.33774754

>>33774731
then they knew trolls were weak to acid by the same token

>> No.33774794

>>33774754

Nope, they likely gleaned this metagame knowledge from vidjeo games or animu, or some other secondary source where only fire is mentioned.
Those guys a dumb.

>> No.33774816

>>33774754
apparently not, or they'd have taken acid as well as fire.

One guy half remembered looking at the rulebook and seeing that fire was effective, So the fuckwits put all their stock in fire, and then complained when it didn't work instead of trying to solve the problem in front of them.

Player information vs character information. Apparently they have yet to learn how to separate the two.

>> No.33774840

>>33773096
>tell my players that its going to be a stealthy, "punishing if you get caught" campaign
>they all make really good characters for the setting/playstyle ive described
>have a good couple of sessions
>get caught and beat up by guards, thrown in jail
>one rough encounter and they complain its unfair and too hard

>> No.33774860

>>33774732
Well, it's not wrong, but how do you define a non-gygax troll?

There is dozens of version of what is a troll, even in the same mythology

>> No.33774899

>>33774816
Trolls aren't rare creatures, you know. They aren't the first to find them. Everyone knows that trolls stop regenerating from fire. It's not unheard of forbidden knowledge. Even villagers would be saying "fuck, go get the fire!"

Let the meta-knowledge go, sometimes.

>> No.33774937

>>33773947
>And don't say it's D&D's fault, I've seen this happen in literally every system I've ever played.
Then the problem is your group. Find a better one.

>> No.33774962

>>33774899
It's not the meta-knowledge which is the issue here, but their inability to apply in-character skills to collect information outside their own direct knowledge.

>> No.33775000

>>33774860
>There is dozens of version of what is a troll, even in the same mythology

That's the great thing, troll is a general name for "roughly magical horror beast-man that eats you." It keeps players on their toes, since they don't know what to expect. Standardizing it only leads to shit like OP's problem.

>> No.33775010

>>33774481
> You can still kill it. All Fire/acid do in D&D is prevent regeneration from working for a round. If you're DEAD, regeneratio stops working.

Trolls EXPLICITLY have regeneration that functions when dead.

>> No.33775045

>>33775010

Which editions?

>> No.33775061

>>33774860
i would probably make a troll that is more in tune with magic and nature, less rampaging beast, and simply remove the regeneration.

it is true, there are many definitions of troll out there, but i think if you pick one then tell players of the setting's common knowledge about them and then have them roll for more details things would be fine. I personally enjoy trolls that can camouflage really well and turn into stone when they die.

the main point was that has this regeneration acid/fire thing become so widespread in tabletop gaming that it would be difficult for players to disassociate the two? players make assumptions and some things they seem less willing to part with, as they've grown up with this type of troll just as i have with mine.

>> No.33775143

>>33775045
Not that anon, but I remember explicitly in 2e, if you don't apply fire/acid it will regenerate from negative HP

>> No.33775199

>>33775045
Every one besides 3.5

>> No.33775255

>>33773522
If it had a ring of fire resistance, cut off the ring and burn the rest.

If it is naturally immune to fire and acid, then get the wizard to turn it into a frog.
Research it until I can find some way of permanently killing it.
Drop things on it until it can't move.
Trap it somewhere.
Trick it with clever riddles.
Offer it something it wants more than the bknes of the townsfolk.
Make it chase me into a dragon's lair.
Feed kobolds to it until it died (or had a stomach full of bear traps, which would be metal as fuck).
Collapse its bridge on its head.

>> No.33775280

>>33775061
as long as you clearly explain that to them, it should be fine. If they get mad angry because the assumptions they made about your setting were incorrect, you may want to find other players

>> No.33775294

>>33774213
My party would get the "correct" answer in a heartbeat then they would all laugh in character about how shit at riddles the monks are.

>> No.33775332

>>33774191
>troll can be offed by knocking them down then delivering a killing blow
>you can also just chain them, they are not too strong for iron chains

You could NOT be more wrong

>> No.33775339

>>33773096
That is god damn impressively close to Miura, just needs to tone the grey down to a grimmer splot that gets scanned poorly.

>> No.33775365

>>33775332
> A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Regeneration

>> No.33775375
File: 32 KB, 223x310, snakeform.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33775375

>>33773522

>> No.33775381

>>33774732
Some examples of non-Gygax trolls would be fucking sweet, actually.

>> No.33775387

>>33775375
>not path to exile

>> No.33775415

>>33775365
Congrats at ignoring that Trolls are an exception and regent from death and negative HP.

Thanks for the link to DandDwiki of all places, hah.

>> No.33775483

>>33775387
I was thinking Curse of Chains

>> No.33775519

>>33773266
So he's not compensating for something with that sword after all...

>> No.33775532

On the subject of doing dick things to players, I'm considering the following dungeon entrance

The first entrance is the well known entrance, a riddle door. I'll prep like two pages of riddles off the internet and even allow rolling int to solve them. But they are only allowed one guess per riddle, and even then the door only has a 1/6 chance of admitting they're right. And even if he does, he just says he doesn't believe them and needs to test them further.

The riddle door never opens. There is nothing on the other side of this door but a scrying device so the wizard can laugh at people and see who's trying to break in.

The real entrance is in a natural cave formation some ways away. There's no door, it just shifts to a masonry tunnel. There they will discover a deactivated stone golem sitting against a small panel of wall sticking out into the hall. Five feet beyond that point, the wall on that side (with the exposed panel thing) the wall drops back five feet to an array of sentry turrets that will shoot anything non-ethereal with AoO.

They can trick the golem with some time and a good arcana ritual, but if they flub activating it, it attacks until it is nearly destroyed, at which point it will attempt to run to the other side of the hall. Due to high DR, he isn't too worried about the sentries (I'm thinking stats like 2 AoO for 1d6 damage and he has DR 5)

The players can of course just assault the sentries, or they can notice that the wall panel is actually used to push that section of wall across the hall, providing shelter from the fixed sentries, but only room for four people at a time, two of which are pushing the thing. The cover is complete, but if they make the mistake of not noticing the final sentry didn't fire on the golem, and push the wall all the way to the end, the section drops an inch and locks in place, no save, stranding whoever was left behind.

And then the golem will attack again since he regenned while resting.

Am I a dick DM?

>> No.33775580

>>33775415
>Trolls are an exception and regent from death and negative HP.
coup de grace can kill a defenseless opponent unless it passes a fortitude save, if the party times it actions right they can render the troll to 0HP or negative HP and it would not regenerate until it next turn, allowing time for performing the coup de grace
trolls regenerate from 0HP and negative HP, they don't regenerate from death

>> No.33775587

>>33775532
That depends on if they have to luck into finding the cave entrance/figuring out the riddle door is fake or not.

Remember, the players only know what you tell them. They have no idea they should be looking in a cave unless you at least hint at it, and they don't even know there's a cave there unless you point it out/

And don't do anything that will murder them outright without giving them a chance to figure out how to deal with it.

>> No.33775610

>>33775532
Sounds like your average 2e dungeon.
I'd try to cook up at least 5 or so ways to get past the sentry hallway, one of which including another secret entrance

>> No.33775611

>>33774374
You must hate Zelda.

>> No.33775616

>>33774094
That's bit too much, don't you think? Player characters don't have big honking unholy symbols hanging from their necks when they're wearing fire resistance items, after all, so it kinda breaks the verisimilitude.

Anyway, a troll with fire resistance isn't a puzzle with one solution when the party could deal with it literally with any other way than trying to set it on fire. You're exaggerating the severity of the encounter, especially when it was advertised as a boss combat to the players beforehand.

>> No.33775620

>>33773947
>When did players fall into such a video-gamey mindset
You answered your own question. Video games.

>>33774117
>the idea that Warriors are meatshields, Rogues do spike damage, Priests heal/buff, and Mages AoE and debuff
Not D&D because that shit wasn't what the roles used to be. Except maybe fighter as meatshield but that's it.

>> No.33775658

>>33775587
figuring out the riddle door will never open is entirely on the players, but I'd just give them the cave if they ever say "we search for alternative entrances" which I expect they won't do at first since the local villagers will just be all "Yeah, the wizards fortress if over yonder beyond the riddle door, but no one has ever gotten through. Have done some business with him though. Dude's got a sweet tooth like no other."

And have like, a little homunculus be the one to fetch the food stuffs so they can't just ambush him and or poison him.

>>33775610
The sentries can only shoot into the hall, if you get into their squares, you can take your time dismantling them.

You can also just teleport to the other side if you can teleport.

>> No.33775665

>>33775532
Not unless you describe the adventure as ''insanely hard', or if you somehow manage to convey the same thing to them through dialouge with npc's.

>> No.33775667

>>33775611
You see is that the difference is that even fucking Legend of Zelda has multiple ways to solve some of their puzzles such as Din's firing, or using fire arrows instead of making it mimic your movements into the torch.

Shitty riddles that don't work, are of poor quality, and then the DM still expects you to get the exact answer he's written down... Yeah that's pretty much really really terrible DMing.

>> No.33775668

>players go after an artificer
>i gave plenty of clues that this artificer gets his powers from items, not from his own skills
>players corner him in his lab
>he puts up a force shield
>everyone keeps attacking the artificer
>and attacking him
>and attacking him even more
>and they just keep trying to get through the shield

Dumbshits kept trying until they whined about it being unfair that they had to roll so many perfect 20's to get through the shield.

All they had to do was send someone down the stairs of the lab, and smash the giant fucking glowing crystal that was right below the artificer in his invincible bubble shield.

The shield and the crystal even had the same colours to make it extra easy for the dumbshits.

>> No.33775688

>>33775620
in D&D
Warrior = the monster answer
Rogue = the ambush answer
Priest = the attrition answer
Wizard = the utility to do the others

>>33775665
I don't quite understand. Don't say it's hard? Do?

>> No.33775778

>>33775532
Let them know it's going to be like a traditional 2e style dungeon run by an asshole Gnomish Wizard who likes to mess with people. Don't take anything for granted, and what may seem real won't actually be.

>> No.33775821

>>33775688
If they are experienced players it shouldn't be an issue.
I think its a good idea to tell them in advance that the dungeon might be hard if not dealt with correctly. (maybe through npc conversations, skellingtons, ect.) so they don't get butthurt over getting wrecked

>> No.33775838

>>33775610
>>33775778
Can you name some good examples of 2e dungeons, I'm interested in reading up on them? Besides the Tomb of Horrors, of course.

>> No.33775861

Dude, just punch the troll out, then have everyone keep punching the troll to keep it's regen from waking it up.

Have them keep punching the troll while the Wizard makes some golems. 2-3 should be good.

Tell the golems to punch the troll to keep it's regen from waking it up.

Seal the cave so no one disturbs the punching golems.

Now the troll is in a permanent coma being punched by golems. Forever.

Some say the troll is still being punched to this very day.

>> No.33775878

>>33775658
Well, it's really unlikely that they'll actually figure out that there is no way to get the door to open. Usually fucking up at riddles makes players go "we're just not doing it right" until they get frustrated and pissed off.

>> No.33775907

>>33775668
Obviously they didn't play Dark Souls because you literally just made them fight Seath

>> No.33775917

>>33775861
this would be awesome, too expensive and not efficient, but awesome

>> No.33775942

>>33775907
that fight railroads you HARD (as in, you either do it or there is no progression) into destroying his magical crystal

>> No.33775964

>>33775861
The troll dies of hunger, eventually. Regenerating takes lots of food, that's why they're so ravenous.

>> No.33775975

>>33775964
there's a ring for it, we can keep the punching going on forever

>> No.33776018

>>33775942
It's functionally the same. You are free to continue attacking Seath and watching your damage be instantly negated.

I spent a good four or five minutes and all my fireballs drilling into him before I realized that I had to kill the crystal. At which point I still won the fight because Seath is the easiest boss in the game.

>> No.33776023

>>33775975
Well there we go, trade it's Ring of Fire Immunity for a Ring of Sustenance, and then he can be punched forever, or at least until it dies of old age.

>> No.33776034

>>33775861
Doesn't regenerating physical damage purge all of it's non-lethal damage?
IIRC you literally cannot non-lethal a troll into unconsciousness except for knocking it out in one punch, at which point it gets up next turn.

>> No.33776058

>>33776023
I thought trolls aged forever, becoming bigger and somehow smarter, but always hungrier, as long as they had food

>> No.33776071

>>33776034
>>33776058
I'll admit I'm not as familiar with trolls as I'd like to be beyond "they regen unless fire/acid".

>> No.33776116

>>33775878
Not the original guy, but if that starts to happen he should whip out the "door doesn't believe them and insists on testing them in other ways" card.

>You answer the riddle. The stone face looks down at the ground, its marble eyes shifting about in panic.
>"Um. Uh. Hm. Hrrm. Nope. Uh... that's wrong. Gotta be. Sorry, I can't let you pass... but enough riddles since you're so BAD at them. I have other tests for you!"
>touch your left elbow with your left hand
>put both feet behind your head while standing up without falling
>lick your own eyeball

After a few of those if they don't figure out that the door is fucking with them, it's their fault.

>> No.33776120

>>33773096
Have they tried using acid?

>> No.33776129
File: 10 KB, 211x244, retard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33776129

>>33775010
>kill it
>take the ring off
>burn it

>> No.33776187

>>33773096
Actually, does chunky salsa rule apply to trolls?
How thoroughly must troll be splattered for it to stop regenerating?
Does it count if fire resistance rings are just lying in a pile of troll-mush?

>> No.33776188
File: 18 KB, 300x209, leary.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33776188

>>33776120
They should.

>> No.33776195

>>33774062
Nothing like the banhammer to enforce quality control on your group.

>> No.33776213

>>33776129
Pretty much, but the issue is that we don't know what the source of it's fire/acid immunity is, since OP doesn't elaborate.

For all we know neither do the PCs, and it could very well just be a passive property slapped on the Troll out of the DM's spite.

If it's not a ring, an acid/fire immune troll is quite literally near impossible to kill besides high level wizard shenanigans, at which point you're just encouraging Caster supremacy making you a shit DM for another reason.

>> No.33776228

>>33774213
Your shadow?

>> No.33776232

>>33773749
i'm glad i grew up on BRP systems where the general rules was "you suck and you die", made the exceptions feel great and earned.

>> No.33776254

>>33776116
Now see, I'm dumb enough that I wouldn't have thought of that

>> No.33776257

>>33776213
see

>Detecting magic auras, looking at its hand to see if it has any bling, hacking off its hand if it does, running off until we get an actual plan, but no.
>look at its hand to check for bling
Pretty obvious that it found a ring of fire resistance.

>> No.33776261

>>33774355

Or you could expect them to use fucking detect magic cantrip.

Or just go full murderhobo since a troll does not require fire to kill, it just speeds upo the process

>> No.33776263

>>33776018
Which is strange, considering he's some super special dragon, and all the other dragon bosses in dark souls games tend to be hard as fuck.

>> No.33776297

>>33776213
>If it's not a ring, an acid/fire immune troll is quite literally near impossible to kill besides high level wizard shenanigans, at which point you're just encouraging Caster supremacy making you a shit DM for another reason.

trap the troll, chain it down
put it into a huge mold and pour molten metal over it

problem solved with zero magic involved

>> No.33776303

>>33776228
>only when you are alone
the fuck kind of shadow do you have?

The answer was probably "silence" but that's retarded because clearly the entire monastery is silent even though there are a shitton of monks there.

>> No.33776342

>>33776232
WFRPG has that same effect, when you're bunch of rat catchers, conmen, morose war veterans, and loopy charlatans with delusions of wizardry pitted against orcs, lynchmobs, and chaos terrors you learn to savor the times you escaped with your limbs attached.

>> No.33776353

>>33776303
I prefer singing monks, myself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SvhLaHRvUs

>> No.33776363

>>33776303
Solitude

>> No.33776414
File: 1.66 MB, 1053x1070, such a fggt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33776414

>>33776363
>being alone is the companion that you can only have while alone

if this was the answer the monks should kill themselves for being asshats

>> No.33776448

>>33776414
They just want to be left alone, dude. They gave you a shitty riddle to make you go away.

>> No.33776545
File: 67 KB, 1086x1107, six months of elf.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33776545

>>33776448
pfff hadn't even thought of that. You sir deserve a medal anon

>> No.33776606

Same guy as earlier

Later in my dungeon I will have a series of small rooms, like, 3x3 rooms. There will be chests in the middle of them. One will be an empty room with an open chest in it and nothing in the chest. The next will have a closed chest with a sign above it saying "This Chest is Actually a Mimic", and the third room will have a closed chest surrounded by dried blood everywhere, and a bit of stickiness coating the floor. The chest is just holding rotten meat and blood that is seeping out of the bottom. But there's a sign in the lid of the chest saying "There's a gem in the bottom". There is no gem.

The chest with the sign is in fact a mimic.
None of the chests have treasure.

>> No.33776634

>>33776606
meh, if they fight the mimic, at least have a reward
doesn't have to be much, and only if they fight the mimic

>> No.33776648

>>33774062
>actually waiting for 2 - 3 hours

Being that late means you go first into the maybe trapped room and get to be the one hosting the demonic VIP. At least in my group.

>> No.33776655

>>33776634
or, if you don't want any kind of monetary reward, map or clues that will help them later on

>> No.33776680

>>33776634
Hmm, well I'm thinking of having an invading tribe of kobolds that have gone insane in the basement, so perhaps the mimic has one of their shaman staffs of "+10 diplomacy to these crazy fucking kobolds"

>> No.33776724

>>33773096
>not immediately trying acid instead

>> No.33776741

>>33776680
>"+10 diplomacy to these crazy fucking kobolds"
I like that, helps em later on, and puts a restriction on it so it can't be abused by a diplomacymancer

>> No.33776795

>>33773633
Well it's a SW troll so assuming fire resistance aside it was like a regular troll it heals 1, perhaps 2 per round, 3 characters each landing a solid hit per round will take it out soon enough. even assuming no aces.

If the characters were specced for combat and took care to stay at range that shouldn't be hard to pull off.

>> No.33776801

>>33774295
Why are we talking about trolls like they aren't sentient beings? If a human had an int of 6, would you make him randomly eat rings and run around naked because he couldn't imagine that equipment is something that can be used? Also, trolls are in fact naturally proficient with all types of simple and martial weapons as well. I literally don't know why anyone is arguing that trolls in D&D are stupid beasts.

>> No.33776845

>>33776801
>I literally don't know why anyone is arguing that trolls in D&D are stupid beasts.
because they only read the combat section of the Monster Manual, and not the rest of the entries on the page

>> No.33776847

HOW TO FIX THIS

>you see the troll that is causing problems
>it seems cleverer than normal trolls, it has dressed itself with patchwork armour and adorned itself with jewellery

Use fire on troll

>it's ring glows and your attack falters

>> No.33776855

>>33776801
Trolls are just stupid in the sense that niggers are stupid. They can use common weapons with little problem, are exceptionally strong, and feed on society. But they don't really possess advanced planning abilities, or anything.

>> No.33776943

>>33776855
>But they don't really possess advanced planning abilities, or anything.
Even if you have a DM playing D&D, trolls have a base Int of 6.
There are many ambush predators in the real world that can plan that wouldn't even have that level of intelligence- wolves, dolphins, many species of cats, even leaping spiders

And no where in any DMG does it say you can not take a Monster and beef it up.

Rule 0, Munchkin.
A good DM uses Rule 0, a bad DM abuses it.

>> No.33776992

>>33776855
>The troll was given the ring by an evil wizard, tells him that it protects him from fire
Wow so hard.

>> No.33776995

>>33776943
It was a joke, made in poor taste. Let me apologize, and say that trolls are smarter than niggers.

>> No.33776998
File: 136 KB, 546x700, 1386270494972.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33776998

>>33776855
Not sure if bait or /pol/, but assuming the worst.

>> No.33777036

>>33776943
Talk about intelligent predators...

I hear they finally discovered proof that tyrannosaurs hunted in packs.

Scientists found tracks of a tyrannosaurus family group traveling along the same path on one day. Which in nature pretty much means you're part of a pack.

>> No.33777099

>>33777036
I thought Tyrannosaurs were too large to share meals though.

>> No.33777170

>>33774239

You can't take 20 to do something that puts you in danger. Your point is still well taken.

>> No.33777186

>>33773845
>Why is it that players just shut down when someone expects them to think?

The game has poorly conveyed their ability to solve problems outside of what their character sheets say that they can do, and from an early experience they have internalized that plans/trying to do things outside of the box doesn't work.

When my spells all meet +10 saves from level 1 goblins, and they all have 40hp a piece because my first DM was a piece of shit I stop wondering if maybe the carefully placed blocks near switches open a door or drop a key, clearly the only thing I ever need to do is stack up on damage and only damage.

>> No.33777206

>>33777170

> it does not have to worry about falling and dying.

>> No.33777252

>>33774058
Troll in a can, the ration of real adventurers.

>> No.33777332

>>33775580
>they don't regenerate from death

Sure they do, otherwise what's so special about a troll? It's like you've never actually played DnD before.

>> No.33777351

>>33776187
that would probably take a lot of time, the beater can just keep it on 0HP while anybody else takes the rings off, plus ring of fire resistance do pitifully against critical hits, so a defenseless prone troll at 0hp could still takes lethal from someone with a torch

>> No.33777389
File: 778 KB, 1552x971, Death.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33777389

>>33773096
>Run CoC game
>Players tell me they are "hardcore roleplayers"
>Warn them to make up characters that they aren't attached to cause CoC has a habit of killing players off like clockwork
>They agree
>Run the little adventure out of the core rulebook
>Guy writes down on his sheet that he is brave and reckless
>He opens the door to the house
>It's dark
>"OOOOH NOPE, I'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE, I KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING, I BACK THE FUCK OUT"
>They spend half an hour down the street buying half of a hardware store, for shit like camping goods, crowbars, rope, etc.
>For a two story suburb house they just have to look around in
>They come back, go upstairs
>They shit themselves at the kids room because baby toys in a haunted house
>pretty much ignore the ACTUAL spook of the walls bleeding
>They go back downstairs
>One of them finally wanders off alone
>The spoiler in the basement possesses her
>Threatens the other players and tells them to get out while brandishing a wrench she had
>Party decides to fight.
>Combat happens, everyone beats each other to 2 or less HP, two of them having to be revived from unconsciousness and with a little fiating of my own to make them NOT DIE
>Describe that they are badly beaten, bruised, and probably need medical attention and don't feel well.
>"...hey, did we explore the basement yet?"
>They line up and head down the stairs
>The stairs are rickety and require a DEX x5 check to navigate down or they fall down the stairs
>Two of the players make the check
>Guy in the back does NOT make his check
>He falls down the stairs
>Into the other two as well.
>Knocks all of them down the stairs, I roll for fall damage
>Two of them die
>Allow the last player to make checks to revive them despite this
>She fails both rolls.
>Both players who died start bitching at me for dying.
>One of them is almost on the verge of tears because she made a special snowflake character based off of herself

After that, I stopped playing TTRPGs for a good 9 months.

>> No.33777411

>>33777332
they regenerate from 0 HP, you can kill them with a coup de grace if they fail the fortitude save and then they are just dead, not dying or unconscious (what 0HP stands for)
you can also just do enough stat damage and once they reach 0 they are as good as dead

>> No.33777507

>>33777389
Christ. What kind of a person gets attached to a CoC character, of all things? Part of the fun is to find out how you die, not if you die.

>> No.33777571

>>33773947
>why do players do this
Because you don't actually give them any information to think with.

Your fights take place in a blank white box with maybe one or two environmental objects they can use, and your descriptions lack anything other than "it works" or "it doesn't work".

>> No.33777634

>>33777571
>Your fights take place in a blank white box with maybe one or two environmental objects they can use, and your descriptions lack anything other than "it works" or "it doesn't work".
Don't you think that you're making a lot of assumptions about his game and putting the responsibility of gathering information and gathering a plan on him as a result?

You're acting like a perfect example of what people are describing when they talk about "groups who demand to be spoonfed".

>> No.33777642

>>33774731
I hate this mindset. There are some things that are just common knowledge. If there were real creatures in the world that could regenerate forever unless exposed to fire or acid people would know that through folklore or it would be considered common sense.

>> No.33777667

>>33777634
If you think asking for more than a blank white box with one or two environmental features is "asking to be spoonfed", you are a picture perfect example of a terrible, undescriptive DM.

If ever you wonder "Why do all my players do (x)", you should maybe consider what you are doing to make them do (x).

>> No.33777681

>>33777667
>If ever you wonder "Why do all my players do (x)", you should maybe consider what you are doing to make them do (x).
Not spoonfeeding them.

>> No.33777683

>>33777642
and yet, many people in the internet age don't know that some species of Gecko can regenerate limbs and tails

common knowledge really isn't that common

>> No.33777688

>>33777634
>>33777667
he was actually incredibly generous to suggest the GM might be giving one or two environmental features.
Usually they do not.

>> No.33777708

>>33777681
So you don't actually have any argument other than "if I include descriptions of what is going on in my game, it would be spoonfeeding!"
Golly, it's so surprising when people who aren't given information don't act on that information.

>> No.33777726

>>33774481
>>33775010

Actually, neither of you are right.

In D&D, Regeneration explicitly prevents you from dying to anything that doesn't pierce your regeneration. It works by converting all non-fire, non-acid (or whatever) damage into nonlethal. So trolls' regeneration doesn't work when dead, but it's rather impossible to kill them without fire, acid, or Trollsbane.

>> No.33777728

>>33777683
Geckos don't frequently storm your town devouring small pets and livestock and absconding with women. They mostly sit there and hock car insurance.

When something starts having an adverse effect on humanity, we tend to find out what kills it and spread that shit around.

>> No.33777737

>>33777683

Common knowledge among professionals who literally live and die by that knowledge, however, is.

Or are you suggesting there are soldiers out there that don't, even in a general sense, know the weak points of tanks?

>> No.33777738

>>33777708
>Golly, it's so surprising when people who aren't given information don't act on that information.
Golly, it's so surprising when people who don't look for information or express interest in thought regarding what is occurring aren't spoonfed information.

>> No.33777745

>>33775611
Zelda puzzles have a shitload of hints and give you hints over time if your struggling with something.

>> No.33777756

>>33777738
So now you are argued to the point where "If players don't ask for more information, I don't have to give them any at all!"

As a DM, you should at -least- have an environment for players to fight in. If you don't even have that, you aren't really doing any dungeon mastering.

More empty-white-room mastering.

>> No.33777769

>>33777737
Doesn't everyone know that you do your best to blow the treads and then take your time throwing a bomb down the top after shooting the gun on the exposed gun?

>>33777745
They don't give hints over time that are worth anything.

Zelda puzzles are still easy though.

>> No.33777775

>>33777738
So this is what people are talking about when they mention horrible undescriptive GMs.

>> No.33777780

>>33777756
See, you're doing it again. Two people that you don't even know on the internet, and you're just making assumptions about what they do as a DM in order to defend whiny spoonfed babies.

>> No.33777782

>>33776261
They don't sound like they knew that. You even claimed it was invincible. They met this invincible enemy and found it was immune to the one weakness they knew. Once that was lost, it was truly invincible in their eyes.

Players need hints. If someone sees a hopeless situation they are going to assume there is nothing they can do. They aren't going to see they have a shot unless you actually provide that glimmer of hope for them to light their way.

And yes, there are players who don't need this. Gritty, hard-bound players who never give up. Players who throw marbles down every hallway, who know the weakness to every monster, who will rapidly dismantle your new ones through ingenious tactics before the monster has so much as half a chance to fight back. Players who will barrel head-on into every encounter, knowing full-well they could die and probably would die but damn if they're going to go out without a fight. But aside from iron-bound wills that are quickly broken in all but the most stubborn players, such players aren't born; they're made. If you want players like this, you need to build them to that point. Player's gain experience just like their characters do, and it's the player's experience that has the most impact in the end.

>> No.33777785

>>33777737
>Or are you suggesting there are soldiers out there that don't, even in a general sense, know the weak points of tanks?

I used to know Commo guys that didn't know weak points on tanks, self-propelled artillary pieces, or the ASVs we rode around in

>> No.33777786

>>33777411

>Trolls are infamous for their regenerative abilities, able to recover from the most grievous of wounds or regenerate entire limbs given time. Severing a troll's head results merely in temporary incapacitation, rather than death. After cutting off a troll's head or other limbs, one must seal the wounds with fire or acid to prevent regeneration. Because of this, most adventurers will typically carry some sort of implement capable of creating fire.

Are you dumb, nigger?

>> No.33777809

>>33777780
You are making all the same assumptions, while ignoring that the DM is the primary arbiter of player action, as they are the sole window the players view the world through.

Also, you've stopped entirely at trying to present arguments, because you have no response to "GMs should produce environments".

>> No.33777821

>>33776034

In D&D, they convert all damage that isn't fire or acid into nonlethal damage. They then heal a certain amount of nonlethal damage per turn. This is the exact same mechanics that all the other regenerating monsters follow, save the Tarrasque.

>> No.33777841

>>33777738
Your previous definition of "spoonfeeding" was to give a player information when they specifically asked for information.

That aside, expecting the GM to give you information without prompting isn't actually that unreasonable. Information is very important to a tabletop RPG, and having to constantly ask for it can get tedious very fast.

>> No.33777853

>>33777389
I agree that people shouldn't get attached to CoC characters, but dying to falling down stairs just seems kind of anticlimactic to me. I would be disappointed if my character died to something that mundane and boring, like any asshole could die without ever leaving their house.

>> No.33777859

>>33777841
Apparently it's "spoonfeeding" according to him if you aren't making spot checks every 5 feet to determine what your environment is.

>> No.33777860

>>33777809
I'm making no assumptions whatsoever, and you've confused "GMs should not give players information about their environment that they do not care to look at" with "GMs should not produce environments".

>> No.33777888

>>33777841
>Your previous definition of "spoonfeeding" was to give a player information when they specifically asked for information.
Excuse me? "My" previous definition?
You seem confused.

>> No.33777890

>>33777860
so, you are literally doing the "you need to make spot checks every 5 feet if you want any information at all, silly players" thing.

Also you make loads of assumptions about what spoonfeeding is, and about how spoonfeeding is the cause of these problems.

When it's becoming rapidly clear that the cause of these problems is your GMing style.

>> No.33777899

>>33777853
>I would be disappointed if my character died to something that mundane and boring, like any asshole could die without ever leaving their house.
Isn't that the point of CoC though? Playing a mundane asshole who was thrown into extrodinary cercumstances?

>> No.33777911

>>33777888
You seem to be confused, actually, as you're arguing for incredibly retarded forms of GMing that give no description about anything.

>> No.33777913

>>33777890
>your GMing style
And what style would that be? I'd be delighted if you could tell me what my GMing style is.

>> No.33777928

>>33777913
the one you are arguing for, where it's spoonfeeding to give any information to the players at all unless they specifically ask for it, as stated here
>>33777860

Turns out, if the only window the players have to the world is faulty, they won't make good choices. Amazing.

>> No.33777958

Most DMs are incredibly averse to taking any responsibility for their action, instead blaming everything on players.

>> No.33777994

>>33777928
God, just imagine that.

Being only able to see what you ask to see.

"there's something in front of you"
"what is it?"
"it is a man"
"what kind of man?"
"a normal kind of man"
"what things does a normal man have?"
"arms, legs"
"oh, so can I hit his legs?"
"no, his legs have armor, you should have asked"

>> No.33778056

>>33777958
>Most DMs I've played with and hear about on /tg/ are incredibly averse to taking any responsibility for their action, instead blaming everything on players.
ftfy

>> No.33778095

>>33777994
>>33777913
yeah, this is basically like playing a blind man who's only insight to the world is tapping things with a stick.

Unless your players are playing blind, deaf characters, you've got to give them basic details about what is going on in the world.

>> No.33778099

>>33777782
My favorite thing as a DM is switching over from 3.pf to run Call of Cthulhu oneshots to shake things up. A good way to get players to think about encounters is by putting them in a game without heroes. I'll occasionally throw horror encounters into my pf games to let them know that not all enemies will fit in their comfort zone. A good way to get players thinking is to have a group of low level enemies like goblins (20-30 total) fight using guerrilla warfare. When players notice that their enemies only attack during rests before immediately withdrawing they get to looking around. Just make sure there is a set amount of guerrillas so that they don't accuse you of making infinite enemies.

>> No.33778116

>>33773522
Haul ass. Scream at the mage. Continue to Haul ass.

>> No.33778130

>>33773522
Expose it to the light of day so it turns to stone.

>> No.33778214

>>33775255
>which would be metal as fuck).
you don't say

>> No.33778256

>>33777853
On one hand, I see your point. On the other hand, they really shouldn't have gone down there in the first place.

>> No.33778308

>>33777899
>thrown into extraordinary circumstances
So have him get eaten by a rug'loth or some shit.

>> No.33778316

This isn't really a "stupid player" story, since the group in question is actually pretty sharp, but this was a rather sad moment of fail.

>Big dungeon, monstrous humanoid themed.
>They get into the anteroom, kill the two minotaur guards, notice a few knicknacks around the room, including a gong, but no way forward.
>Do a rather sloppy job looking for secret doors, do not find the one that would let them proceed.
>Cast detect magic on the room, looking for anything magical to help them out.
>Aside from a weapon one of the minotaurs had, nothing magical.
>One of them gets it into his head that you need to ring the gong to open whatever it is.
>Rings gong
>No, that's not what the gong does. The gong is the alarm system to warn of intruders, but they took down the minotaurs before they had a chance to ring it.
>Do eventually find the secret door.
>Half of the dungeon is waiting for them on the other side.

>> No.33778352

>>33777726

Or if you suffocate them. Or starve them to death.
>Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

I would have tried knocking out the fire-proof troll, tying it up, and throwing it in a lake, honestly.

>> No.33778370

>>33778308
they had their shit handed to them, where close to death, and decided to go exploring because they forgot to check one corner of the instance for a treasure chest

a mundane death was just fine

>> No.33778376

>The players find a room at the bottom of a collapsed staircase.
>Inspection reveals it was destroyed by someone as they were going up, on purpose.
>The drop is about twenty feet, but there is rope in the last room
>In the room they find no other apparent entrances or exits
>There are dozens of large cages with the remains of animals in them.
>The last cage was wrent open from the inside

How can I make such an encounter better while still allowing the players to outthink the encounter?

>Around each of the dead animal's necks is a faintly magical collar
Would let them detect magic and find the stalker
>There is a bell attached to the wall for no apparent reason
The dinner bell. Ringing it forces the creature to return to it's cage to check for food.

>> No.33778400

>>33778352

Or SoDs, or negative levels, or stat drain, or...

>> No.33778405

>>33778370
not really, if the entire point of the thing is mundanes in extraordinary scenarios and creeping madness.

>> No.33778567

>>33778376
All the clues are there, no need to make it more complicated. If they fail to take precautions or seek out the creature it gets a surprise round on them. Simple.

>> No.33778577

>>33778405
being possessed in a house that bleeds, and having to fight your friends isn't creepy?

It wouldn't shake you up a bit if one of your friends busts in the door, trying to take your head off with an axe?

>> No.33778613

>>33778577
yes. And those are the things that should probably be killing you in CoC.

It's just unthematic to have them fall down the stairs and die in a mundane way.

>> No.33778625

>>33776263
Remember, his 'super special' quality was his lack of scales, which are the source of a dragon's immortality and most of it's power.

So yeah, his power is being shit.

>> No.33778634

>>33778613
and they shouldn't have gone exploring the creepy haunted house when they where almost dead from the first encounter, most people who get hurt go home or go to the hospital to heal

>> No.33778680

>>33778634
yep, it was a mistake on their part.
Not a lethal one, though, unless you're trying to metagame-punish players for their out of character thinking.

Which isn't CoC at all, that's just standard group disputes.

>> No.33778703

>>33778680
or, you know, if there's something actually scary in the house that kills them, like a monster or a madness book.

>> No.33778716

>>33778634
>most people who get hurt go home or go to the hospital to heal

Yeah, except CoC protagonists aren't "most people." By definition the protagonist of a CoC campaign is not the guy who saw something kinda spoopy and just leaves. He is not the guy who is already an existentialist and reacts to the insignificance of mankind with a dull "Uh, yeah?" He is not the guy who has no demons in his closet.

A CoC protagonist is the horror movie protagonist that doesn't leave even after it's clearly become a terrible idea to stay, so that the game can actually continue. He's the protagonist who's invested in the value of man, and in the value of himself as a thing more than a pile of molecules, so that the horrors can rip that away from him. He's the guy who is half-nigger.

Dying from a staircase "because it's what would happen to most people" is utterly missing the point of Cthulhu protagonists.

>> No.33778750

>>33778716
yeah, the game would sort of fall apart entirely if you went home and rested every time you were wounded.

That's dungeon-crawler thinking, not CoC thinking.

>> No.33778766

>>33776648
That is the way you do it. The PC who is late becomes an NPC who is easily influenced by the rest of the party. If you are really cool with the party...maybe not such a bad thing. On the other hand...

>> No.33778814

>>33778716
>Dying from a staircase "because it's what would happen to most people" is utterly missing the point of Cthulhu protagonists.

Sides, why the fuck would you be using the stairs when you're that badly injured?

>> No.33778817

>>33778625
And blindness, he's also blind.

>> No.33778819 [DELETED] 

>>33777777

>> No.33778866
File: 3 KB, 119x126, 1375618680248.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33778866

>>33773096
>Players not running off to find the nearest billy goat
>Forgetting that billy goats are trolls' natural predators

>> No.33778874

>>33778819
take that shit to /b/ we're having fun poking holes in each others logic here

>> No.33778875

>>33778866
I forget where this comes from

>> No.33778876

>>33778766
I just call in the God of Plot Convenience to spontaneously teleport them where they're meant to be, if an excuse for why they're suddenly not alongside the rest of the party is needed. Hand-waving absences is a necessity in a long-running campaign, so it's handy to have a diety devoted to handling them.

>> No.33778903

>>33778875
the... the fairy tale?

>> No.33778904

>>33778875
Billy Goats Gruff bro

>> No.33778936

>>33775668
Did you, at any point, show them the crystal?

>> No.33779021

>>33778936
Yeah, it's kind of a silly challenge if he didn't. "Gets his powers from items" could easily mean items on his person, or items which are consumed when used.

>> No.33779062

Do you guys mind if I continue using this thread to stupid proof my dungeon?

>The room is filled with coppers
>Hundreds and hundreds of stacks of coppers each the same height and equally spaced apart from each other across half the floor
>In the middle are a collection of skeletons sitting idly
>Any attempt to take the money or disturb the piles will provoke them to attack
>New currency spilled in the room will make them stop and count

How should I make this room more deadly? Collapsing ceiling? Support it by a rickety pillar in the middle or something.

>> No.33779086

>>33779062
how many skeletons we talking?

>> No.33779087

>>33779062
players will never discover the "new currency" thing on their own, and will need numerous hints of one form or another.

>> No.33779093

>>33779021
I thought artificers HAD to have the items on them, or at least closer than "in another room somewhere shhh I'm not telling you where, though."

>> No.33779118

>>33779093
yes, yes they do I believe.

>> No.33779121
File: 36 KB, 278x253, mcduck.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33779121

>>33779087
Make them abnormally large duck skeletons?

>> No.33779128

>>33779062
>>33779087
maybe have the skellingtons move the coppers around and make tally marks on a tablet?

>> No.33779144

>>33779086
I dunno, like 10?

>>33779087
Well, the new currency thing is supposed to be the alternative win con, since you can just loot everything while they're counting and they won't attack

>> No.33779155

>>33779121
>>33779128
I was thinking of something more along the lines of "your money pouch gets torn in the fight, and one of the skeletons stops battling to pick up and sort the coins

>> No.33779168

>>33779062
Only way across is by jumping from pillar to pillar.

>>33779087
As you watch a single copper fallsthrough a grate in the roof, the skeletons quickly set about removing the top few layers from each pillar and construct another separate pillar fromthe removed coins.

>> No.33779170

>>33779155
My players keep all their non platinum money in the bag of holding

>> No.33779172

>>33779155
What dipshit keeps their money in an easily torn bag on their hip? That's asking to get robbed blind

>> No.33779187

>>33779168
>As you watch a single copper fallsthrough a grate in the roof, the skeletons quickly set about removing the top few layers from each pillar and construct another separate pillar fromthe removed coins.
Why would they do that? Every tower is 100 copper high

>> No.33779188

>>33779121
>Players pick up money
>Skeletons animate as they make for the exit
>'D-d-d-danger, watch behind you!'

I want to run a Duck Tales campaign now.

>> No.33779195

>>33779087
Easiest way to do that would be to have a recently-dead person and the skeletons have just finished counting their coppers.

>> No.33779199

>>33778875
..
It's an old meme.

>> No.33779204

>>33779144
Why the fuck would you put your own money into the room just to get copper? Is it really enough copper that using your own money as a distraction is worth it?

Unless you can keep throwing money at them to distract them while you kill them.

That'd be fucking awesome, to throw money at them, which forces them to count money almost like a geas, so the skeletons take negatives if they aren't counting and fighting the party, instead.

>> No.33779210

>>33779172
Personally I keep my money down the front of my pants.

>> No.33779228

>>33779199
>Billy Goats Gruff
>an old meme

Please.

>> No.33779231

>>33779204
Of course. They're like fae because their first command was
>count the money in this room for me,
while the second command was
>and kill anyone who tries to take it.

>> No.33779266

>>33779228
that's exactly what it is, by the strict definition of a meme

>> No.33779281
File: 621 KB, 697x400, 25.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33779281

>>33779210
That may stop others, but it won't stop me

>> No.33779284

>>33779228
>..
..

>> No.33779290

>>33779187
But there are 98 pillars, with the extracopperthey can make 99 pillars of 99, these are OXFORD skelingtons right? Not just skeletal accounts?

>> No.33779292

>>33773096
>no use of authentic Bulgarian Miak

They deserve whatever happens to them.

>> No.33779303
File: 19 KB, 500x367, carlos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33779303

>>33779281
Going for the money shot, are you?

>> No.33779322

>>33779281
I don't expect it to stop everyone, I expect to be aware when someone is fondling my sack.

>> No.33779372

>>33779231
So could you just knock the stacks down and have the skeletons count them?

You could ask for a reflex save from the party members who have low reflex, and if they fumble it, they accidentally knock down a few stacks of coins, and then the skeletons start counting.

I dunno, some bullshit that helps them.

>> No.33779432

>>33779093
It could be connected to him by a really, really long string tied to him that is also invisible

>> No.33779433

>>33779372
No, they already counted that money. Why would they need to count it again? They're skeletons, not golems. They're only in stacks because that's how people count large numbers of coins.

Also, would this mechancically work?

>Take cow
>Polymorph into a human
>equip ring of sustenence
>end polymorph
>cow now has food forever
?

I was pondering the larder, but realized that'd be real magical realm.

>> No.33779478

>>33779433
>Also, would this mechancically work?
>>Take cow
>>Polymorph into a human
>>equip ring of sustenence
>>end polymorph
>>cow now has food forever
>?
>I was pondering the larder, but realized that'd be real magical realm.
just....don't
if you think it might be magical realm, it probably is

>> No.33779548

>>33779478
It definitely is, it's just a question of whether it's any of THEIR magical realms

But the mechanics intrique me

does that equate to infinite milk?

>> No.33779615

>>33779433
from the Polymorph Other description in the old 2nd edition handbook:

When the polymorph occurs, the creature's equipment, if any, melds into the new form (in particularly challenging campaigns, the DM may allow protective devices, such as a ring of protection, to continue operating effectively)

I'd guess it falls under the realm of protective devices and thus is down to DM ruling.

>> No.33779668

Had my players complain this last week.

Assaulting a lair of very smart ogres led by a smarter stone giant. They've been proven to be simple ogres except with just, intelligence scores and wisdom, skills to support better plans. Nothing too hard.

>Party inquisitor sneaks up invisible and as quietly as she can and identifies that they have bottles of alarm, they had encountered them before. Glass bottles that just shriek when smashed.
>Returns to party around the corner. She starts talking about using her remaining invis time to set up to steal the bottles and maybe blitz them to get into the base without undue alarms.
>Party sorcerer, makes an illusion of a red dragon climbing up off of the cliffside to attack them.
>Alarms.

Guards try to defend their home and discover the illusion, discovering the party. Inner patrol joins the fight, party begins dispatching ogres.

>They sound a second alarm. These are no joke, these adventurers are killing folks.
>No plan of retreat. They stand on the giant's doorstep and fight them all, the giants' resident hags come out and begin coven-casting, cursing and force caging people left and right.
>Stone giant leader goes invisible and lets battle play out. Giants are losing but barely.
>As they begin to win they say in character how exhausted they are and near death, I give them a break, not having invisible boss and his bodyguards come out, letting them run home to lick their wounds.
>They press in, using the last of their healing.
>Boss and bodyguards attack, looks like near death of party, inquisitor gets a crit and one shots the boss, avoiding TPK.

Half of the party was pretty upset with the difficulty, some players were aware of the alarm's importance but still. Annoyance.

>> No.33779930

>>33776414
>That image
Are you a sorceror, Anon?

>> No.33780017

>>33779668
Maybe it's because I run 2nd edition, but if my players don't make it through an encounter by just the skin of their teeth (or at least believe that was the case) I feel didn't build it right.

>> No.33780019

>>33779930
4chan previews by taking a certain amount of pixels from an image. You can engineer a trick image by making those pixels make a different image than the rest of the image.
Pretty sure there was a tutorial for this somewhere.

On topic, these threads usually make me want to play D&D/tabletop more, since catastrophic failure games tend to have really interesting things go down. It's too bad I've never found any way to play.

>> No.33780050

>>33773096

My previous campaign might as well just be titled as nothing more than an entire year of ceaseless whining. I'm presently writing the whole thing up for /tg/ and don't really have enough ready to start here. Suffice to say, my group had a rules lawyering little shit who pretty much ruined everything. He kept going off on his entitled bitchfits about rules and when they weren't being followed to the letter. When he finally left, the rest of the players turned rotten and generally bitched about anything that was "impossible" because they were too lazy to come up with workable plans for complicated situations.

I hate that game, and have been struggling for months not to hate the people involved in it.

I hate that campaign in a way that is hard to put into words. The sheer malice that still hangs on me from as bad a time in my life as it was.

>> No.33780134

>>33777099
Hey, Lions share meals of things like gazelles and zebras. It would make sense if fuckhuge dinosaurs shared.

>> No.33780199

>>33773096
>gaming group has a huge fight instead of enjoying their session
>/tg/ comes down hard on one side or another without adequate information, and encourages having a huge fight rather than enjoying their session
There are a million ways to salvage and enjoy OP's scenario without just ditching your group if you know how to deal with your friends and other human beings at all. Honestly it seemed like the social cohesion of the group was rotten already.

This is what happens when you take the "I can't possibly have fun and you are always 100% wrong" attitude and apply it to real life.

>> No.33780203

>>33780017

I wish it were that way, but I'm noticing in Pathfinder, a properly built character (not even adding the Cheese you CAN put in to make it stupid) will trounce most things if you don't apply strategy.

That same party's monk was having an aneurysm when some flame drakes came across the party, and would ONLY strafe at distance with their fire blasts, relying almost solely on the ranged to not get roasted. He kinda just sat and pouted until one drake flew in and threw a party member off the cliff. (Inquisitor had feather fall as an at will, drow blooded half elf SLA only reason it wasn't a char death)

>> No.33780941

I always take the advice here of one of the D&D designer's whose name escapes me right now.

Basically, if you ever alter the stats of a monster, never refer to it by it's name. In his example, he said he described a bloated, old woman who lived in a swamp, and whenever she placed her staff on the ground, more swamp would come out and encroach the area. That made the players engage it more carefully than if he had said "This swamp hag does this extra ability"

I would personally only ever refer to it by name if I wanted to set a meta-gaming trap.

"This is a troll. HAHA, Your fire doesn't wooooork~"

>> No.33781068

>>33780199
I can see both sides. OP may have realized that the argument just wasn't going to end with this group. Or maybe this was the final straw in a string of these arguments that finally made him say 'no more'.

But I do agree with you. A stronger personality might have been able to turn that story around. Maybe with a call for the group to retreat and then build a plan to come back and defeat the monster - making it sound like that would be the fun/game thing to do 'yay, we get to do strategy for a change' sort of thing.

Leaving the group probably has to do with a graph with 'how much fun I have with this group' on one end and 'how easy I can find a new group' on the other and where OP lands on that graph. He obviously felt he was on the 'not so much fun' and 'find another group easily' end of that graph.

>> No.33781191

>>33781068
I can accept most of your post, except for the idea that OP figured he could find another, better group easily. OP specifically asks "Whose dick do I have to suck to find a group that isn't full retard?" which sounds to me like an expression of frustration and futility.

I still kind of blame him for playing with a group that he knows is like this, and then complaining.

>> No.33781196

>>33780941
I agree with that, but we have to consider that some monsters are common knowledge and certainly are named.

In OP's example it isn't really all that unfair to assume their characters, within that universe, had a working knowledge of what a troll is and does and that the village that talked to them about it did as well.

To your point about meta-gaming trap, I think a better way to run that is to have the village ASSUME it is a troll and describe it as such with plenty of 'I saw the WHOLE THING' from the town drunk. Of course, nobody really saw anything for sure and the town is describing assumptions - it wasn't a troll at all.

That bit of meta-gaming trap should be able to be avoided by having the players ask detailed questions about what was actually seen and what actually happened and the DM should tip it off by adding in a detail (just off handed perhaps from an NPC) that doesn't jive with a troll.

>> No.33781304
File: 107 KB, 562x277, pZf7Thu.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33781304

>>33781191
I assumed that OP was a faggot and that sucking a dick to get into a group was normal for him.

Don't we always assume that about OP and dicks?

>> No.33781558

>>33781304
Sucking a dick is still considered a high bar for entry into a group even if you are a faggot, the same way that demanding a thousand dollars to play in a group is high even if the person is secretly a millionaire. While the cost isn't high FOR THEM specifically, it's still rather high in general and would be considered a difficult game to get into.

>>33781196
Is knowing stuff about archetypal monsters considered metagaming, now? Depends on the system, sure, but parties in plenty of systems would be able to identify a troll and its traditional weakness without even rolling for it.

>> No.33781634

>>33781558
>Is knowing stuff about archetypal monsters considered metagaming, now? Depends on the system, sure, but parties in plenty of systems would be able to identify a troll and its traditional weakness without even rolling for it.

If you read my post I said much the same thing. I used the meta-gaming language because the guy I responded to was using it.

Really there should be a discussion about just what monsters are common knowledge and what are not - even who might know and who might not within a party. Would take a lot of work on the part of the DM to really do it up right though.

Could a game system be built to cater to that concept?

>> No.33781733

>>33781634
>If you read my post I said much the same thing.
Yep. I was agreeing with you and asking a question of the thread in general.

I don't think there needs to be a formal discussion at the start of the campaign, just ask the GM "would we know about X in character?" and then the GM makes a ruling about who does and who doesn't and if any rolls are required. No fuss, no muss.
>Could a game system be built to cater to that concept?
Now I personally love building systems for almost any reason, but even I find this a bit excessive.

>> No.33782092

>>33781558
It is metagaming, but only the most dedicated roleplayers seperate that knowledge from their character's knowledge. I don't pick it apart because character's are bound to know some things that weren't laid out beforehand; it's not like I've got a full list of in-character knowledge from age 6-present.

Still, when you're dealing with players that read the monster manual for fun, custom monsters become that much more important. My players knew exactly what to do against the gelatinous cube, but gunbats? those threw them for a loop.

>> No.33782132

>>33781733
>Now I personally love building systems for almost any reason, but even I find this a bit excessive.

I agree. But...

You might list some creatures as 'common knowledge'. Perhaps for a given area.

More rare creatures you might give a few alternate abilities. The DM then selects what he wants. The idea being that this cuts down on meta-gaming. So a swamp-hag might have three of the following five abilities, that sort of thing.

>> No.33782240

>>33782092
If the characters would know, it's not metagaming even if they players know. It just saves me telling the players what the characters know. I'm a fan of the custom /renamed monster myself, so I'm not trying to castigate you or anything.

>>33782132
>You might list some creatures as 'common knowledge'. Perhaps for a given area.
But an entire game system? What you're talking about is a custom bestiary at most, more like 1 house-rule.

>> No.33782413

>>33782240
>I'm a fan of the custom /renamed monster myself, so I'm not trying to castigate you or anything.

I had a player who hated that. Just now remembered it. I think I described a monster not exactly the way the monster manual described it, I think it was goblins or something being smarter or such (this is 2nd D&D so a while back). He got pissed when I said 'will, in this game they are'. Said he didn't want to play dungeons and "mylastname", he wanted to play dungeons and dragons.

He got over it. But I was really surprised at the out of no where venom response. Really ticked him off that I might alter the game rules. Was not expecting it at all.

>> No.33782484

>>33782413
You were devaluing his time investment in the game. I'm glad he got over it, but your curveball probably hit him out of the blue, too.

>> No.33782561

>>33782484
I really didn't intend it as a curve ball. I was looking for a 'wow cool' response. Oh well. Live and learn.

Now that I think about it more...I think your 'devaluing his time investment' probably is pretty close. But here is the thing. We were in the army, I was the only one that had the rulebooks. He had, as far as I know, no 2nd edition rulebooks. I think what happened here is that he had an expectation and that expectation wasn't met.

>> No.33782617

>>33782561
Yeah, it's hard to cover all expectations for a for-fun venture. But like I said, I'm glad he got over it, and since he got over it it was a perfectly acceptable bump in the road.

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