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33304630 No.33304630 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Is it just me, or is MTG going down a bad path when it comes to removal?

Let's be blunt: Theros block sucked in regards to removal. It also sucked in general and is the reason why I've stopped playing Magic over the last year, but that's not the reason for this topic.

Previous blocks in recent standard history always have at least one playable 2 mana "destroy target creature" spell somewhere in them. Whether it's destroy or exile, the point remains. Examples: Terminate from Alara, Journey to Nowhere from Zendikar, Go for the Throat from Scars of Mirrodin, Victim of Night from Innistrad, and Dreadbore, Abrupt Decay, and Ultimate Price all from RtR.

The best 2 mana kill spell in Theros is arguably Last Breath.

Looking at 3 mana kill spells doesn't improve the picture much. Lorwyn had Unmake. Alara had Maelstrom Pulse. Zendikar had...nothing, actually. Scars of Mirrodin had Dismember, and that's assuming you weren't paying the 4 life to cast it for 1 colorless. And Beast Within if you didn't mind the drawback. Innistrad had Liliana of the Veil. Return to Ravnica had Putrefy and Detention Sphere. Theros has Hero's Downfall (which is really good to be fair, not calling it bad or anything) and Banishing Light (a shittier version of Oblivion Ring that doesn't work well with bounce spells unlike the original).

This is ignoring the occassional 1 mana kill spell, Path to Exile being the stand-out example. And no, Chained to the Mountaintops sucks now and will suck even harder once shocklands rotate.

If Khans of Tarkir doesn't have a 2 mana kill spell worth playing, our good removal won't kick in until turn 3.

Oh, and the possibility might very well be that we may NOT have a 4 mana wrath at all next standard.

>> No.33304680

standard is a shitfest blah blah aggro and midrange are scj apporoved control is antifun xD

>> No.33304736

It's all about letting kids keep their creatures. They did the same thing to counterspells.

>> No.33304743

>Oh, and the possibility might very well be that we may NOT have a 4 mana wrath at all next standard.

You mean "we might very well never get a 4 mana wrath ever again".

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/47174955313/ive-seen-a-lot-of-new-casual-players-lately-complain

>> No.33304813

>>33304743
>MARO DESTROYING MAGIC: PART 783649281

Seriously, a 4 mana wrath and good lowcost removal is a requirement to keeping Aggro decks fair. These are both things that Theros block lacks.

Am I alone in thinking that Theros block is the worst block ever printed? Even blocks I despise to this day like Mercadian Masques or Kamigawa are vastly better than it in my opinion, and power-wise objectively better.

Think of it this way: Fallen Empires has had more of an impact on Legacy than Theros. Fallen Empires.

>> No.33304876

>>33304813
I've been playing Magic for several years. I enjoyed Mercadian Masques. I loved Kamigawa. I was the only person I knew who actually liked every single thing Wizards put out.

I still didn't like Theros block. What were they thinking with it?

>> No.33304957

>>33304813
>>33304876

It's just... boring. People do things. Other people do things back. People fight with gods maybe a bit? Some bitch nobody gives a damn about dies somewhat. And then we leave. Exciting, innit?
Kamigawa at least had this very strong overarching narrative, with people fighting for their life against their own household gods. It was all pretty desperate-feeling and brought a sense of unity to the setting.
Theros has greek dudes doing greek stuff, but they don't even try that hard to do that.

>> No.33305020

>>33304813
Theros was very well designed from a limited perspective. Have you ever drafted it? Its very enjoyable.

>> No.33305326

>>33304957
Theros was a complete failure of design in so many ways.

The enchantment theme was left to rot for the first two sets and only was finally given (very shitty) support in the third set. Compared to the support given to enchantments in Urza's, it's fucking laughable.

The mechanics outside of Monstrosity were either ripped off from other sets (chroma becoming devotion) or absolute waste-of-paper garbage outside of limited (all the others outside of Monstrosity)

The gods felt less like gods than stuff seen in previous sets like Progentius or the Eldrazi Titans, and plot-wise all but two of them could have their personalities summed up as "COLOSSAL DICK". (one of those two was too busy worrying about all the other shit in the multiverse to be a dick, and the other was mostly reasonable and only got supremely pissed off for actually understandable reasons) Yes, the Greek pantheon was mostly assholes, but not to this extent.

The power level is so fucking terrible. And that's not even opinion: Theros block is the weakest block in MTG history in terms of eternal formats, somehow sucking more than even the horrific mistakes of the past.
The return of Scry (aka a good mechanic brought in from an artifact block) was fucking wasted outside of whatever reprints had it and Thassa. So many cards were overcosted by 1 to 2 mana in what could best be described as "Homelands syndrome".

The flavor could best be summed up as "Greek myth except with different names if we even could be bothered to". The plot could be summed up (badly, to be fair) as "Gods are dicks, kill the mortal who dared to attain godhood because fuck mortals, thanks for doing so, your reward is me stabbing you in the face".

>>33305020
Yeah, that's not the case in my opinion. I haven't drafted Magic in months since Journey into Nyx came out, I tested the waters, and have it turn out that the limited format still was a boring piece of shit.

But that's just me, you feel free to have fun with it.

>> No.33305373

Reprisal is a good fucking card bros. It's from Alliances, hasn't been printed since then, loads of good cards from that set. Reprisal is one of them.

Also Banishing Light is pretty good, right? Gods, Planeswalkers, Creatures... what else do you want?

>> No.33305420

>>33305373
Oblivion Ring, the card that does the exact same thing but also letting you get bonus value out of it with bounce spells.

>> No.33305679

>>33305020

Theros was fun to draft but damn it made an awful and boring standard season.

>> No.33305715

>>33304957
>Some bitch nobody gives a damn about dies somewhat.
A lot of people actually care a lot about Elspeth, and are very upset about this.

>> No.33305754

>>33305326
>Compared to the support given to enchantments in Urza's

Okay, I agree with the fact that Theros sucked big time, but comparing things to Urza block is a terrible idea no matter how you slice it.

>> No.33305835

>>33305373
>Gods
All suck except Thassa
>Planeswalkers
All suck too much to ever see play outside of Standard
>Creatures
Read above

>> No.33305839

>>33305020
If you mean the sets by themselves, Born of the Gods was literally the worst limited experience I have ever encountered.

Seriously, nothing until turn 3 maybe 70% of the time. I may as well just start with 2-3 lands and go from there.

>> No.33305861

it makes limited more interactive, AKA more luck based

>i gotta pay 6 mana to kill this voltron creature
>i can pay 2 mana to bounce it
>woops, gods willing, it gets bonuses
>woops, ajanis presence, it gets bonuses

>> No.33305879

>>33305835
Purph is good

>> No.33305960

>>33304813
Strangely enough though, standard wasn't aggor focused, it was all midrange and aggro's been dead since the first set dropped

>> No.33306078

>>33305754
Let me use an example from Urza's block: Argothian Enchantress. Cast an enchantment spell, draw a card.

Is it undercosted? Yes, not denying it at all. The usual cost for such an effect is 3 mana and without the shroud.

The equivalent in Theros block costs 4 mana and has no shroud (granted, it's an enchantment itself so it cantrips).

Creature-enchantment wise Urza's block had creature enchantments that weren't overcosted as shit while still circumventing the usual problem they had of 2 for 1s: the Rancor cycle. Simple, generally not that powerful (outside of Rancor itself), but still good. Compare that to every bestow creature ever, none of which see any play outside of that one satyr.

Don't forget Acadamy Rector (although that's overpowered as shit).

Hell, think of it this way: Urza's block had Yawgmoth's Bargain. Theros had Erebos. Bargain is (possibly not even arguably) the most overpowered enchantment ever printed, and for good reason. Erebos is a shittier version of Greed, which itself was a vastly shittier version of Necropotence, which ITSELF was the weaker but cheaper precursor to Yawgmoth's Bargain.

Am I saying that Erebos should have been like that? Fuck no. But his card-draw effect could at the very least cost only 1 black mana rather than 1 black and 1 colorless.

Urza's block was a mistake, no ignoring that. But Theros block was also a mistake, and for the opposite reason.

>>33305960
Yes, that's because we have stuff like Doom Blade, Supreme Verdict, and Ultimate Price to keep Aggro from overrunning the format. All that is rotating out this fall, and unless Tarkir picks up the slack there are going to be problems.

>> No.33306115

>>33306078
Well, anothe issue was that there weren't enough good aggro creatures, Most of the ones that exist are ALSO rotating in khans. Sides, they said they wanted aggro to exist this standard

>> No.33306123

>>33306078
Necro being castable T1 off a dark rit makes it much more powerful than Bargain.
You have to jump through a lot of hoops that you don't have to deal with with Bargain, but necro being so much cheaper makes it better.

>> No.33306163

>>33306115
I'm worried about the removal though.

A 4 mana wrath has been around literally as long as Standard has been a thing. Wrath of God was in every core set until 10th edition, DoJ was in Zendikar, M11, and M12, and then RtR had Supreme Verdict.

>> No.33306197

>>33306078
Doom Blade and Ultimate price and Verdict have not kept down aggro idiot. 4cmc wraths have been in multiples in the past few years. What they did wrong was make a bunch of shitty creatures that needed to be 2-for-1'd by do-nothing auras that encourage card disadvantage.

Please go back to Reddit.

>> No.33306260

>>33306197
That's part of the problem too, although that's less the fault of removal and more the result of Theros being a piece of shit in every single way. "Let's make SEVERAL mechanics designed to let the opponent 2-for-1 you!"

The point is that a 4 mana wrath has existed to keep aggro in check since forever. If Tarkir lacks that, and judging from Maro's comment that may very well be the case, we will lack that critical safety valve if they accidentally push it too far.

On the bright side, at least Tarkir will bring us good aggro cards again and hopefully good cards in general again, a nice breath of fresh air from all the midrange running around this standard.

>> No.33306275

>>33306197
It makes me wonder why, in an enchantment emphasized set, they would ignore totem armor. It was a good mechanic.

>> No.33306324

>>33306275
wouldn't fit well flavor wise.

>> No.33306344

>>33306275
Oh yes, totem armor. Another way for enchantments to circumvent that 2-for-1 issue. I guess flavor-wise it wouldn't fit, but they could just rename it like they did Chroma. Would be better than any of the mechanics introduced in Born of the Gods at any rate.

Of course, I have a soft spot for RoE in general for being the best limited format ever.

>> No.33306350

>>33306324
Sure it would. Spirits granting benefits to heroes that they favor, and then sacrificing themselves to save that hero one last time. Fits as a reverse bestow.

>> No.33306357

>>33306344
The issue is that Totem armor (Unlike chroma) was "Successful" in their eyes

>> No.33306417

>>33306357

It was kinda interesting as actually sees play in modern

>> No.33306448

>>33306357
Yes, because totem armor was a good mechanic.

Unlike Heroic, Tribute, "Inspired"...

>> No.33306510

It's seems the longer someone has been playing magic the more terrible ideas they have about how the game is/should progress.

The fun of the game (remember fun, the reason people start buying these colorful cardboard pieces) comes from interaction with the opponent. Each of psychographics have fun with different things, but each of these things involve the reaction of another human being.

Creatures generate the most interaction between players. Even two players playing with a bunch of French vanilla creatures naturally generate a lot of decisions and back and forth between players.
Removal spells shouldn't be your primary means of interaction so you can set up some combo or unkillable win condition. They should be kinda terrible that you only want to play a couple and the rest of the game should be about interacting with creatures.

I know that there is a history of competitive decks having interaction coming primarily from removal and counterspells, and that the feeling of having the game locked down and the opponent helpless can be fun, but it's usually not fun for people on the other side and WotC doesn't want that any more.

>> No.33306533

>>33306510
MaRo please

>> No.33306603

>>33306510
This guy right here has it. There's a reason creatures are the focus of the game now; they're the funnest and most interactive part of it.

>> No.33306650

>>33306603
>funnest
most fun

>> No.33306749

>>33305420
the reason we have banishing light is that the bounce -> oops your permanent is gone forever thing wasn't the intended way for O-ring to function, that was just a loophole they failed to see when they created the card.

>> No.33306759

>>33306650
I feel your pain, but I'm pretty sure they literally updated the dictionary with that word in it because people couldn't remember basic grammar around the word 'fun'.

>> No.33306785
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33306785

>>33306603
See, that's your opinion.
I used to be a scrub who hated removal because it was "op nerf now."
But i realized it balanced the game and enabled a more diverse set of strategies. It made for more fun, interactive gameplay.
The kind of "interaction" you're talking about is a very specific kind, which, like hearthstone, resembles two retards, taking turns, slapping each other in the face with creatures.
The reason i play magic is for complex card interactions, slow, cerebral control mirrors, things that differentiate magic from other games. Wizard's "market research" is informing design philosophies that alienate people like me.

>> No.33306842

It is fun how many people believe WotC is pushing for no removal, expecially considering the Innistrad-Ravnica standard, which was approximatly:

TRAGIC SLIP!
ABRUPT DECAY!
DETENTION SPHERE!
KILL KILL KILL KILL RAPE MAIM EXILE KILL DESTROY!

>> No.33306862

>>33306603
crazy stack bullshit is the most fun and interactive part of magic

>> No.33306867

>>33306603
Keep in mind also that if you have no removal in the game, it will turn into a luck based game of who can draw into the biggest creatures, and that's it. There will be no further interaction.

Also, if mass removal is nowhere in sight, then token decks can just steamroll you. What are you going to do, block? Good luck blocking 10+ tokens with your 1 guy.

>> No.33306882

>>33306842
Those cards will be gone in a few months.
Now you have
>Heroes Downfall
Actually good
>Fated Retribution
8 mana WoG? No
>Elspeth's Neg 3
6 Mana and may not even hit what you need gone
>Garruk AP's Neg 3
7 Mana. No thank you

>> No.33306983

>>33306882
Well there's the Vault. Albeit it does take 9 mana to set up or two turns spent doing nothing.

Aetherspouts is situational.

Polymorph's Jest is fun.

Mass Calcify is pretty awful.

Yeah removal isn't quite what it use to be.

>> No.33307251

>>33306882
>>33306983
If you're just talking about hard board wipes in standard post rotation, yeah there's not many choices, but there's still Anger of the Gods, Whelming Wave, and extinguish all hope.

plus we don't know what khans will have to offer.

>> No.33307321

>>33307251
>Whelming Wave
>my_brother_of_african_descent.png

>> No.33307440

>>33304813
> Hurr Durr Theros is the worst EVER PRINTED....

HOMELANDS. Name 5 decent cards from homelands. Before anyone says it, NO Homelands is not a part of ice age, It was replaced by coldsnap. It was such a bad set, that it was replaced. Think about that. Homelands basically never happened but was in terms of theme revisited in innistrad.

The dark only had a few good cards, Mercadian masques was cool, but generally weak compared to both the Urza's sets before it and invasion cycle after afterwards. I feel Kamigawa actually has cool stuff in it. I mean Divining top, Umezawa's Jitte, Pithing needle, Kami of the crescent moon.

I actually enjoy the slower pacing Theros had to a game. Exploring the new mechanics inside the cycle was a lot of fun. Outside of the set itself I still see viable cards that can be used well. Just give it time, and we'll see the mechanics unfold in modern and legacy.

>> No.33307442

>>33306867
....do you know about double blocking?

>> No.33307469

>>33307321
Mah Nigga!

BTW I love whelming wave. It's Upheaval-lite, can handle those pesky gods, and combos with tromokratis real nicelike

>> No.33307498

>>33307321
>>33307469
>>33307251

Three people who like a Whelming Wave, a card that couldnt really exist in a world with 2cmc removal and 4cmc board wipe. Its almost as if weakening removal has opened up design space for fun new cards.

>> No.33307515

>>33307469
i had a pretty durdly ug control deck featuring shipbreaker krakens , tromokratis, prophet of kruphix, then whelming wave and counterspells. it was pretty bad but i had a load of fun and did alright at an fnm with it.

>> No.33307572

>>33307440
No, homelands was replaced by alliances when alliances got replaced by coldsnap

>> No.33307613

>>33307442
Do you? What is a 2 for 1, or at the very least a 1 for 1?

>> No.33307644

>>33307572
Same difference?

Coldsnap came out to complete Ice age. Homelands was a part of what would be considered standard at the time and used some of the abilities Ice age had(cantrips being the biggest). Players actually had to draft stuff from that set at the time, Which pretty much lead to the use of serrated arrows in every other deck at the time. Alliances was also considered a part of the block, So for a brief time Yes, You had Ice age, Homelands, and alliances out for people to pull from. That was part of the "standard" at the time. Although it was a bit different.

Being a veteran of that dark time, when we needed magazines and such to learn the meta(which was not the most accurate), and when tourneys were on VHS to watch, I can say homelands was, for a time, an Ice age Set, and everyone hates it's mechanics.

>> No.33307663

>>33307498
It's just shitty removal. Sorcery speed, doesn't hit all creatures (although that is hardly relevant), and it doesn't even destroy them. If they had some beater out before, what's going to stop them from shitting it out again? Nothing. Especially not counterspells, which are also shitty now. Essentially, you are setting them back, yes, but you are also setting yourself back by not playing anything but bad removal as 4-6 cost cards. You could be playing something relevant, but that would just be another creature. I guess you win, because now they can't remove it either.

It can be claimed that creature interactions are 'more interactivity', but really, if all you are doing is turning cards sideways, how is that 'more interactivity'?

>> No.33307681

>>33305020
When I drafted Theros I maindecked Colossus of Akros without ANY mana acceleration and I still killed people with it.

>> No.33307691

>>33307644

Well there were a couple of good cards. The token creating blue wall and memory lapse very pretty good

>> No.33307740

>>33307613
>a: without removal the game will just become a race to the biggest creature
>b: you know you can double block right
>a: but that could lead to a 2-for-1, or at least a 1-for-1, which is completely unlike removal

Removal is not the only thing stopping the game from becoming a race to the biggest creature. How quickly you can get creatures out while balancing that against their size, how well you organize attacks, how effectively you can block, how well you can bluff combat tricks, all tools which allow a seasoned player to rise about the variance and claim victory from the novice.
If anything having great removal makes the game more luck based.

>> No.33307764

>>33307663
>It can be claimed that creature interactions are 'more interactivity', but really, if all you are doing is turning cards sideways, how is that 'more interactivity'?

Im not exactly sure how to phrase an argument that 'creature interactions are interactive'.
Also, youre insanely reductive arguement also doesnt work internally. Sure you just turn creatures sideways to attack, but you dont turn removal sideways, you just play it. Also sometimes you turn creatures sideways more than once. 'Turning someting sideways after playing it, possibly more than once' is more complex than 'Just playing something and not turning it sideways at all'

>> No.33307785

>>33306078
>Bargain is (possibly not even arguably) the most overpowered enchantment ever printed
Eh, Fastbond, Sylvan Library, Oath of Druids, Aluren, Survival of the Fittest, Earthcraft

>> No.33307868

>>33307740
I don't see how having great removal would make the game more luck based. Choosing which creature to remove when is a layer of play that having just creatures makes irrelevant, and dumbs down play. Yeah, there are things you can do with creatures that are interesting, like combat tricks and the like. But if there's no counter to that, combat is going to be pretty much the only thing happening, and heaven help you if you can't block something.

Also, yeah, a 2 for 1 is something you want to avoid with removal, at least on your own side. Imagine if Doom Blade required you to discard as an additional cost. You want removal to be a 1 for 1 or more, not cost you more than your opponent.

>>33307764
So, you have turning something sideways, and you have playing a spell, or you just have turning something sideways. Yes, creatures can do more than just attack, but why not have both spells and creatures that can do cool stuff, instead of just creatures?

>> No.33307912

>>33304957

Yet despite all that, scum remains scum.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/89401624858/i-really-appreciate-your-stance-that-top-down-blocks#notes

>> No.33307938

>>33307868
>I don't see how having great removal would make the game more luck based.
Dealing with a 5/5 requires more skill when you only have other creatures and combat tricks than when you have doomblade-level removal. Doomblade level removal makes things less about skill.
>Choosing which creature to remove when is a layer of play that having just creatures makes irrelevant, and dumbs down play.
This is jibberish
>Yeah, there are things you can do with creatures that are interesting, like combat tricks and the like. But if there's no counter to that, combat is going to be pretty much the only thing happening, and heaven help you if you can't block something.
The game being mainly combat is a good thing. Thats what ive been arguing the whole time.
>Also, yeah, a 2 for 1 is something you want to avoid with removal, at least on your own side.
I know 2 for 1s are bad. Multiblocking doesnt have to result in lose of card advantage, you even said it yourself. Sidenote: also a Doomblade that requires you to discard a card as a cost is kind of an interesting design.
>but why not have both spells and creatures that can do cool stuff, instead of just creatures?
Was never argueing that the game should be only creatures. Just that the game should be mostly creatures cos they create the most interactivity.

>> No.33307952

>>33306603

>Guys seriously this kind of fun is way more fun

>> No.33307956

>>33305835
Elspeth the last was pretty fucking baller

Polukranos was cool and is cool

Purphoros is funking insane

>> No.33308037

>>33307938
Imagine 2 decks, with similar creatures on a similar curve. After a few turns both players have built up a fair amount of creatures, and don't necessarily want to attack or they'll trade. Then one of the players drops a creature with unblockable. No protection, just unblockable. Maybe the other player has some creature with an ability that hurts other creatures, but if he doesn't, then he has to not only deal with trading creatures, but also the fact that he's on a clock that he can't stop. At all. Removal would fix this. Just having creatures wouldn't.

Removal like Doom Blade adds some level of skill, maybe not in game as you clearly feel that choosing which creature to remove is jibberish, but in deckbuilding at the very least. If you have to account for removal, you include some creatures or you don't, and you add your own removal for the opponents creatures. With no removal, hexproof, while still ok, is no longer as relevant because there is nothing that would target and remove the creature on the level of Doom Blade.

A removal spell that just destroys 1 creature that also requires discard is just bad. Outclassed by prior removal in eternal formats, and kills your card advantage in standard. It would be a guaranteed 2 for 1.

This is still all just about single target removal spells. Mass removal is its own argument, in a way, as its uses differ slightly.

>> No.33308105

>>33308037
I agree that if there are aggressively costed unblockable creatures then aggressively costed removal becomes necessary.
The deck building arguement for aggressivly costed removal is actually a decent argument; good removal pushing both a heavy creatures strategies and no-creature strategies as a way to counter it. I dont think outweighs the addvantages to not having aggressively costed removal but I like that someone is taking this (admittedly pointless) discussion seriously.

Force of Will is guaranteed 2 for 1 but people seem to like playing that. Force of Doomblade would obviously suck in eternal formats but basically every new card does. In a format with no aggressively costed removal Force of Doomblade could be interesting was all I was saying.

>> No.33308131

>>33308105
>force of doomblade
made me giggle, thanks

>> No.33308289

>>33304813
It's sad when I'm more excited about a yugioh set than Magic.

>> No.33308318

What people seem to miss is that Theros' purpose is to fulfill what many sets in the past had to do, lower the power level of Standard to a point where it could start rising again. Actually, the next block may have to do the same as well, but we'll have to wait and see if it does. If we let the power level continuously rise without occasionally lowering it like this, we run into a point where every new block shapes eternal formats, which completely defeats the purpose of eternal formats. They get an occasional new toy, but the best cards in the format should be the oldest, most iconic cards. If the power level kept rising and the best decks in legacy became literally carbon copies of the best decks in modern because of power creep, we'd have a disgusting mess on our hands.

Theros is week, but like Kamigawa, outside of a very small handful of cards, most of the cards are going to be relegated to limited formats, the standard it's currently in, EDH, and block formats, and that's not a bad thing. We'll be passed this downward slope of standard soon and be on a rising one, wherein all the complaints about the set will instead be on how mythics are becoming too powerful and power creep is obsoleting iconic creatures from Magic's past, as we saw back in Zendikar and Scars block were released.

>> No.33308753
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33308753

>>33306510
>Each of psychographics have fun with different things, but each of these things involve the reaction of another human being.

Except Johnny players are starving. I can't think of a single combo in the last few years apart from dinky little things like Mindcrank+Duskmantle Guildmage.

>> No.33308760

>>33308105
Well, Force of Will is a 0 cost counterspell, so that's the only reason people run it. Good disruption and one of the only ways to stop a T1 combo.
A Force of Will type Doomblade would be sort of interesting, but ultimately unneeded as it's unlikely you need a 0 cost creature removal that much. And if you did, you already have stuff like Slaughter Pact for that.
Printing a Force of Doomblade would be pretty interesting now though, in the low power standard we have. If Khans is really heavy on creatures, maybe we'll see something like it, though I really doubt it.

>> No.33308796

>>33308753

Modern UR storm got some nifty tools like Goblin Electromancer

and then they proceeded to print a shitton of storm hate cards in journey because storm was like a fifteen dollar deck if you didn't grab fetches

>>33308318
low power != boring as fuck

this standard environment has been absolute cancer, and limited has fared only slightly better

>> No.33308873

>>33308760
If Force of Doomblade (something like 1B, destory target creature, as a additional cost discard a card) was an uncommon in m15 (or any of the Theros drafting environments) how early/late do you think it would be picked?

I kinda think it would be a reasonable 3rd-4th pick.

>> No.33308980

Magic changes over time. For better or for worse, and when it sucks it's no biggie, it will rotate out to make room for a new expansion.

Maybe a lot of you are newer players and so these changes seem frustrating, but MTG has been this way from the start.

Don't fret. Maybe play a different game for a while, or just be like me and flow with the tide. I've been collecting and playing since 95, and the spirit of the game is still more or less the same.

>> No.33308986

>>33308873

In draft, I'd probably pick it if there was nothing else in my colour. Outside draft? Completely unplayable.

>> No.33309010

>>33308873
>something like 1B, destory target creature, as a additional cost discard a card

I thought the point was for it to be free if you discard a black card and overcosted as a straight up removal spell not just a shitty doom blade.

>> No.33309027

>>33308796
>and then they proceeded to print a shitton of storm hate cards in journey because storm was like a fifteen dollar deck if you didn't grab fetches

Even then, most people sideboarded Mindbreak Trap in the events of a storm deck

>> No.33309051

>>33308980
I've been playing since the start of Mirrodin, and I think that quite a few of the changes have been for the worse. The completely unnecessary removal of mana burn, accompanying changes to mana pools emptying and combat damage being put on the stack detracted from a lot of strategic elements of the game, imho.

Furthermore, there has been a slow but definite push away from cheap creature kills, counters and bounces accompanying the very noticeable power creep of creatures and a tendency to shy away from combo, or at least turning up combo hate to eleven.This has been going on over multiple blocks, and I don't think this will be changed any time soon.

>> No.33309111

Theros had shitty spot removal because the format already had good options for black and red and white got.some nice options. As far as board wipes go, anger of the gods is pretty good.

If they don't add more removal in khans though standard is going to end up retarted (particularly if its about going wide rather than tall like theros does, lingeringsouls2.0.dek isn't Timmy's favorite meta)

>> No.33309306

magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-2015-removal-overview-2014-07-09

This is why limited can go fuck themselves.

>> No.33309327

Khans of Tarkir is the plane where Sarkhan Vol is from?

>> No.33309334

>>33304876
Are you me?

>> No.33309353

>>33309334

No, I'm her

>> No.33309382

>>33309334
I think this is mostly because the fluff of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa were both excellent, while that of Theros is, just as the cards, shit tier.

>> No.33309463

>>33309382

Even then Kamigawa had cards like Jitte, Top, Glimpse Nature, Kira, Gifts, The Dragon stars, Meloku, Kataki, Kiki-Jiki and Death Denied, and those cards are played

>> No.33309507

>>33305835
Keranos sees eternal play, miracles runs one in the board sometimes, as does twin

>> No.33309593

>>33308873
>>33309010
Considering the archetypal Counterspell effect is considered to be CMC 3, a CMC 5 Murder with the same alternate as FoW would seem to be on par with Force of Will's costing scheme.

>> No.33309605

>>33309382
>I think this is mostly because the fluff of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa were both excellent, while that of Theros is, just as the cards, shit tier.

One sec let me just tear your heart out.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/89401624858/i-really-appreciate-your-stance-that-top-down-blocks#notes

>> No.33309624

>>33309593

I agree that's what I was implying in >>33309010

>> No.33309660

>>33309605
Yeah, I know. I don't understand why MaRo is hell-bent on catering to the lowest possible denominator. That's supposed to be the job of investors, and designers should fight this each and every turn...

>> No.33309744

>>33309660

Perhaps it's a subtle ploy to make us NOT want Return to Kamigawa.

>> No.33309813

>>33309744
To be honest: I'd rather they didn't do Return blocks for a while to begin with. I think it's cool to do once in a blue moon, but I want to see new planes as well.

>> No.33309838

Here's a good idea for a removal

W
Instant

Exile target creature. Its controller gains life equal to its power.

I shall call it Swords to Plowshares

>> No.33309847

>>33309660
I think they're trying to find a good balance that appeals to both casuals and tourney players.

>> No.33309860

>>33309838
That's clearly a life gain spell. Who would ever use it as removal?

>> No.33309867

>>33309847
I don't know. I think that casual players are pretty okay with it as long as there isn't one overwhelmingly OP strategy shadowing everything.

>> No.33309881

>>33309867

Well yeah, no one likes that.

>> No.33309884

>>33309838
White's not supposed to have good removal anymore, anon.

Personally, I think that Theros was "EDH Rares:The Block", but its not bad for limited either. Granted, one, maybe two cards from the each set will see play, and probably only in fringe decks, if that.

>> No.33309922

>>33309884
>White's not supposed to have good removal anymore, anon.

I actually agree with Maro on this, white having better or equal removal to black is something that shouldn't be happening.

Swords gets a pass for age but Path is just a straight up, fuck up.

>> No.33309923

Remember when standard had Doom Blade and Go For the Throat and it actually mattered which was which?

>> No.33310005

>>33307868
>but why not have both spells and creatures that can do cool stuff, instead of just creatures?
That is the exact opposite of the history of Magic: the Gathering

>> No.33310043

>>33309327
Yep

>> No.33310252

>>33307912
I respect what he's done in terms of game design but if he's trying to say that Theros feels more Greek than Kamigawa felt Japanese, he's 110% wrong and needs to actually look at both sets before he opines.

>> No.33310265

>>33309860

Sorry.....my bad

>> No.33310276

>>33309884
>White's not supposed to have good removal anymore, anon.

Shut up, I want my swords to be Modern legal so I can Kavu Justice the place

>> No.33310287

>>33310252
I think what he is saying (subtly) is that by catering to the lowest denominator of Greek mythos perception, Theros sold more than Kamigawa.

>> No.33310362

>>33310287
I can't blame him. /tg/ loves Kamigawa and will defend it to the death, but it was a hugely disappointing set for the broader playerbase, and I totally understand their reluctance to ever go back there.

>> No.33310466

>>33310362
Meanwhile, /tg/ HATES Theros.

How come that's the case?

>> No.33310509

>>33310466
Theros has fuck all for eternal formats. Anger of the Gods, but that's only for the exile effect against Pod creatures. Slagstorm was already a card.

>> No.33310531

>>33310362
That's kinda what saddens me.

Back when Garfield made Magic the intention was for it to be something for tabletop/role playing game players to play in between rounds, while the DM was trying to sort out a situation, whatever. The game was built around people who have a passion for traditional games, and this was reflected in the game being very pick up and play for fa/tg/uys but not so pick up and play for Bob the trendy "geek". Magic took off and this was good for us since it kept the game alive, but now it is becoming bad because Hasbro gotta make a profit folks, and there is no profit like a super profit, and unfortunately for fa/tg/uys they can make more money catering to AShLEIGH THE GAMER GURRL's audience and Billy the chic geek than they can by keeping the game targeted towards the original market.

Thems the breaks I guess, but it still feels like shit to see this happen over the last decade or so of the game.

>> No.33310590

>>33310466
It's new, for one thing. /tg/ is filled with old hipsters. You see a couple of guys in this very thread arguing that Theros is literally the worst expansion ever released, which is horseshit. Theros is mediocre at best, but it's far from the worst. But Kamigawa is hated in general, hated by everyone; mtgsalvation, reddit, those dickheads at FNM you hate, etc. so /tg/ feels a need to talk it up. Theros doesn't seem to have that sort of opprobrium, so /tg/ feels cool and superior for hating it.

To be fair, Kamigawa is nowhere near as bad as people make out, but Theros isn't either.

>>33310531
I feel you, but MTG's not made exlusively for us two dudes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, magic is not one game - it's like, ten different games. And each game is directed at a different segment of the playerbase. The strength of the block format and standard rotating, along with having many other formats, is that they can change their focus rapidly and regularly. Remember Zendikar/Scars/Innistrad? That was for us, beh-beh, and it wasn't so long ago. It's a pattern that has repeated itself several times. This isn't our time right now, but our time will come again, not too far in the future.

>> No.33310591

>>33304876
Ditto, magic since urzas legacy and every set was great until theros. I enjoyed affinity, cawblade, etc etc. those were cool formats because they were so unreal, delver was hilarious fun. Theros did nothing, the best cards in current standard are from rtr and morningtide/shadowmoor (hello thoughtseize and mutavault (a card that they said was a mistake to print in standard)) the best removal card is mediocre, there's no good wrath and wizards says that they don't want 4 mana wrath; however, I've seen g/r or burn decks kill on turn 3. I've yet to purchase a pack from born or journey and I have no interest in doing so.

>> No.33310628
File: 1023 KB, 960x960, Virmire_sovereign_hologram.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33310628

>>33310590
>It's a pattern that has repeated itself several times
YOU ARE NOT MARO

>> No.33310636

>>33310590
>Theros is mediocre at best, but it's far from the worst.
People saying stuff like this are going to take it back pretty fast when Ravnica cycles out. Unless Khans manages to turn everything around somehow.

>> No.33310689

>>33310636
Do you not know what mediocre means? Do you not know what "at best" means? In any case, I disagree, I actually think RtR cycling out will be the best thing for Theros. Obviously I can't predict shit about Khans, but the awkward sandwich between RtR's incredibly fast play and Theros' incredibly slow play is really jarring. Assuming Khans is in the middle somewhere, it'll make a great partner to Theros and possibly make Standard worth playing again

>> No.33310721

>>33310590
Don't get me wrong, I know that all too well. I keep playing Magic, I keep maintaining my Pauper cube, I run a legacy list and a modern list, and try to have a kitchen table deck or two and some type 2 legal "fun" (read: tier 3 or 4 brew) decks ready for if people only play less serious formats. I even have 2 kitchen table style EDH decks (non combo Sharuum that has its most "broken" interaction being Copper Gnomes into Blighsteel Colossus on turn 4 or 5 with no protection up and Basandra tokens).

What I object to is that the overall direction of the game since the mistakes (and as much as I love the blocks, they were mistakes) of Onslaught/Mirrodin/Kamigawa is to give "fa/tg/uy" style players lip service in sets at best, and ignore them at worst. I don't even mean "that guy" style fa/tg/uys that bring a stax deck to play an 8 year old Timmy at the FLGS. I mean fa/tg/uys that enjoy magic, they might like playing big creatures, or doing a crazy combo, or fun stack interactions, or whatever. THAT is the crowd that is being shafted and told that our choices are to play limited formats that are trying to recapture the lightning in a bottle that was INNx3 or ROEx3 depending on the set but with worse removal and more durdly games to make up for the lategame threats being worse than in those formats, or play constructed formats that have almost nothing playable below rare at a decent level (I remember a daily deck from a couple of months ago that was circulated here and had 2 uncommons on the sideboard or something and 5 or 6 basic lands, rest of deck rare or mythic and the deck being sold as "great for FNM" or whatever) or play eternal formats that get 1 or 2 cards that STICK per block, rather than the 2 or 3 that STICK per set (by stick I mean see play after the new toys testing period is over). What is getting Wizards' attention is the crowd that attend modern day "geek culture" conventions, the IM SUCH A NERD crowd.

>> No.33310759

>>33310509
"Fuck all" is an understatement.

If we're going by impact on eternal formats, Theros is the weakest block in MTG history, with MAYBE 1 or 2 cards per set at the absolute most having any effect on Legacy/Vintage. Maybe 3-5 per set in Modern, but that's still not a very big number.

One of the reasons people bitched about Mercadian Masques back in the day was because it was TOO much weaker than Urza's block. Masques block still has far more legacy viable cards than Theros block, and Masques block has in it the one set with literally NO Eternal-playable cards in it at all (Prophecy; even Homelands still has Merchant Scroll)

There are as many Legacy-relevant cards in Born of the Gods as there are in Fallen Empires. And the ones in Fallen Empires have had much more impact. Maybe Brimaz and Spirit vs Hymn to Tourach and the literally deck-making High Tide.

The block is fucking CANCER. It's polluting standard with how absolutely shitty it is, and the eternal formats want nothing to do with it and for good reason.

Hell, a common thing people point out is that the stuff in Homelands would be perfectly fine if only the card costs in them were 1 or 2 lower. (This would probably make Merchant Scroll overpowered but who cares)

Gee, that sounds exactly like Theros block then, except a lot of the stuff STILL would be terrible shit based around letting your opponent 2-for-1 you.

Congrats Theros.


>>33310636
This. I'm not one for hyperbole, but if there's no 4 mana wrath or strong low-cost removal in Khan, I'm going to join in the idiotic masses in saying that "CONTROL IS DEAD".

Oh, and I'll say this. I once drafted Homelands with Fallen Empires and Prophecy while drunk. It was a goddamn blast.

I tried doing so with Theros and still was bored out of my mind.

>>33310689
Khans is apparently going to be incredibly aggro-based; Wizards said they want to make Aggro viable again with it. So yeah, fuck Theros then. Again.

>> No.33310845

>>33310759
I would personally LOVE it if Khans made theros completely unplayable. Like. just the set made the entireity of the block go into the garbage

>> No.33310900

>>33310759
>Khans aggro-based
> No new 4CC removal

Lolnope.jpeg.
Glad I don't play T2

>> No.33310905

>>33310759
>Prophecy

Why the fuck would you remind anyone of that abomination. Only cards I can remember being even quarter decent at a kitchen table are Rhystic Study, Spiketail Hatchling, Foil, Plague Wind (ONLY at kitchen table, too expensive for effect elsewhere) and... That's it really.

Fuck that set was awful, Masques block was bad but not awful, but Prophecy was in the bottom 3 sets of all time in my honest opinion (with BNG and Homelands, they are just a bit worse than Saviors of Kamigawa and Fallen Empires, then probably would be a bunch of the worse early sets like The Dark).

>> No.33310922

>>33310905
what was wrong with born of the gods

>> No.33310958
File: 88 KB, 600x456, 1398004816728.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33310958

>>33310922
are you serious

>> No.33310973

>>33310958
yes

are you implying it was worse than homelands too?

>> No.33311023

>>33310922
Where to start?
Well first off there's NOTHING for eternals aside from that one spirit and the cat fuck. Second, it had a MINISCULE impact on standard CAn anyone think of any decks that changed a lot after it dropped? No?). Third, the two mechanics it introduced, were fucking ABHORRENT, seriously, tribute is something that should ONLY show up in a multiplayer set (BECAUSE IT WAS EXPLICITLY DESIGNED FOR IT) and only has ONE card that COULD be playable. Inspired on the other hand? I've heard it nicknamed "Uninspired" since that's what it is. It's boring, it's dull, and more importatnly, there's not a SINGLE CARD that's playabe with it. Hell, I STILL maintain that the BEST inspired card is that one common hurloon minotaur rip off. The worst part about the mechanics? Wizards KNEW they were bad, they fucking AXED tribute after one set and inspired was on like, two cards in JOU, presumably because they couldn't fit them in Born

>> No.33311034

>>33310922
Same issues as AVR and DGM, but multiplied.

Reliance on a few chase cards to make up for a poor set (Brimaz and Courser sold the set alone, Kiora played the supporting act for t2)
Poor to draft (as much as I personally don't like Theros x3, Theros/BNG was awkward at best)
Lack of memorable storyline (to the point that even most Vorthos' I have encountered can say that BNG is about Xenagos becoming Xenagod, but can't really display well how it is portrayed on cards, something that a top down set is MEANT TO DO by its nature) or mechanics
Poor general feel, even naysayers of theros admit they were excited to begin with, and most say that Journey into Nyx was received as being okayish, but BNG is just arse.

The set is bad, plain and simple. And in answer to the question of whether it was worse than Homelands, no it was not, it is with Homelands and Prophecy as the three worst individual sets, but is in most ways better than Homelands. IT IS worse than Fallen Empires and Saviors though, which is saying something (note that I try not to rose tint on things, Kamigawa is my favorite block for flavor and I openly admit that Saviors is one of the worst sets ever made).

>> No.33311035

>>33310973
More like explicitly stating.

>> No.33311038

>>33310973
The entire set is Brimaz and Courser
I never played with Homelands, so maybe.

>> No.33311056

>>33310252
>he's 110% wrong
if you are trying to say that Theros did not feel Greek enough, I'm gonna need you to shut the hell up and do your fucking research on the ABSURD number of references to Greek history and mythology in the block.

>> No.33311067

>>33311038
And that one white spirit.

>> No.33311078

>>33311067
Spirit of the Labyrinth? People got hyped over the card for no reason. I don't even think it sees any play anymore.

>> No.33311080

>>33311056
Yeah. My favorite part about Greek myth was krakens. Didn't the Greeks get scared of those when they were on their longboats exploring the world and raiding the FUCK out of England, and France?

>> No.33311096

>>33311078
Well fuck. Does ANYTHING in it see legacy? And Courser only sees modern since they gave DRS the axe at the same time

>> No.33311118

>>33311096
Brimaz is run in some Maverick/hatebears lists and Spirit sees some sideboard play in D&T. Oh, and Cheesy Blood made it into burn, wooo, uncommon card that sees play in burn makes the deck good guys.

>> No.33311145

>>33310905
You forgot Avatar of Woe. And fuck you for implying Mageta the Lion wasn't awesome at the kitchen table. Repeatable Wrath of God on a stick FUCK YEAH

But seriously, why are there no good cheap wraths in Theros block? no harm meant to Anger of the Gods, but I mean a destroy all creatures type deal

>>33311078
Spirit of the Labyrinth was a shittier Thalia without the "being a cute girl" factor to make up for it.

Brimaz is the only good card in the entire set for Legacy purposes. The only real question is whether he's better than Merchant Scroll or not so I can say with some legitimacy that Bored of the Gods is somehow worse than Homelands.

>> No.33311164

>>33311145
Sorry for forgetting Mageta and Avatar, that means that Prophecy actually has more worthwhile cards in eternal including eternal kitchen table than BNG did. Jesus christ, that is frightening and I never thought I would see it in a modern border set.

>> No.33311194

>>33311145
Eidolon of the Great Revel is good in burn, but only cunts play that deck.
Merchant Scroll is much, MUCH better than Brimaz.

>> No.33311210

>>33311145
>implying Brimaz is better than a motherfucking TUTOR
Ahahahaha no.

...no. Don't tell me it's true.

Oh god.

Homelands is better than Born of the Gods.

The end of days has come.

>> No.33311243

>>33311210
>implying tha-
oh fuck you're right

>> No.33311251

>>33311080
Don't be a fucking idiot, one card type doesn't negate the others, you dipshit. And greek mythology has a shitload of hideous sea monsters, but wizards has good reasons to keep creature types to simple tribes. Adding in a "scylla" or "charybdis" type would be stupid

>> No.33311270

>>33311056

I think that was the problem though, it was JUST references. References strung together by the finest threads and called a world.

It didn't feel like Ancient Greece, its mythology or even a world based of of that. It felt like a fucking custom set.

>> No.33311276

>>33311251
I know. It just pisses me off that people think that they're FROM greek myth now.

>> No.33311325

>>33311251
And they STILL printed Charybdis. They called it Vortex Elemental.

>> No.33311353

I hadn't played MTG since Zendikar and Alara came out. I went to the midnight Prerelease for Theros, and it really did feel boring.

I want to like Theros, I really, really do. But the entire set just felt uninspired and slow-moving. Yes it sold well, and there were even a few cards in there I like. But good god I don't want to play in another slow-paced set like it again.

>> No.33311357

>>33311270
Felt a hell of a lot like it to me, but maybe that's just my years spent studying the stuff.

>> No.33311358

>>33308318
Ravnica was weaker than Innistrad but was still tonnes of fun in standard and limited

>> No.33311366

>>33311056
Theros felt greek in the same way 300 and Troy did. Sure, there may have been some references and it had a few Greek elements, but it was about as Greek as the Giros with garlic sauce and french fries I had yesterday.

>> No.33311369

>>33311023
I seriously think they are going to axe modern this years or the next one, thus forcing a lot of players interested in competitive play to start anew in a power-drained environment
they will probably throw a bone at legacy players every now and then, but that will be it

>> No.33311400

>>33311369
Please, you're talking about modern as if it's an old unplayed format, instead of the most popular format for semi-serious players, with Legacy being too expensive because of the old, rare cards and t2 being too expensive because of the constant rotation and multi-decadollar FOTM cards.

>> No.33311418

>>33311369
>wizards having any reason at all to axe modern
>implying it's not the format they want it to be right now
>nigga yo be trolling

>> No.33311434

>>33311369
You are LITERALLY retarded. Modern is their new favorite format. They are NOT going to do a complete 180 for no fucking reason. Especially since the format's only been official for like... 5 years?

>> No.33311444
File: 22 KB, 316x346, lisawtfisithis.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33311444

>>33311369
Wizards have been pushing Modern harder than anything the last couple of years, I've legitimately never seen anyone so wrong about something on /tg/ before...

>> No.33311469
File: 251 KB, 1190x906, least intelligent comment of all time.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33311469

>>33311369

>> No.33311506

>everyone hates Theros
So in 5 years will we love it like we do Kamigawa these days or hate it even more?

>> No.33311529

>>33311506
HAte it even more. Theros actually sold well, so they're likely gonna "Learn lessons" from it

>> No.33311535

>>33311506
people who liked kamigawa liked day one
>>33311400
>>33311418
>>33311434
>>33311444
>>33311469
you just wait and see

>> No.33311554

>>33311535
It's one of those things that screams "We have run out of ideas and hit rock bottom

>> No.33311568

>>33311554
like Inspired or Heroic or calling Chroma Devotion?

>> No.33311588

>>33311568
Ehh... Inspired is actually something I'm shocked they didn't do sooner (The mechanic COULD be good, it's just that they either overcosted or made everything with it too weak) and Heroic... It's a timmy mechanic

>> No.33311589

>>33311506

Kamigawa was only hated because it came out from Mirrodin and that it was shit to play Standard. It still has a lot more cards that see eternal play than fucking Theros

>> No.33311603

>>33311589
That's not true, people objected to the flavour to a huge degree, too

>> No.33311613

>>33311588
tbh i would have loved to see the level up mechanic in Theros
as for the monstrosity, it would have worked really swell with the transform mechanic

>> No.33311614

>>33311589
Jitte.

>> No.33311616

So is Theros the worst block of all time then?

>> No.33311630

>>33306867

Token swarms rarely get above 2 or 3 toughness, which means Black and Red can completely wipe them out with a single card apiece, even without a wrath. It's more when the swarms get bigger than that you need a wrath.

>>33309051

>Mana Burn

Don't bullshit, man, that was a rule that was almost never relevant anyway. Removing it did absolutely zip 90% of the time and made some cards like Omnath possible.

>Damage on the stack

OK, no. Seriously, fuck EVERYONE that thinks this was a more strategic option. Damage on the Stack created a single perfect "have your cake and eat it too" solution to any given situation, where there was the "correct" play, and all options that were not the "correct" play were things you would only do if you were a fucking moron.

"Durr, should I kill 2 1/1s with my Mogg fanatic or just one? Gee, I dunno!"

Now you actually make a CHOICE based on the circumstances at hand when your Sakura-Tribe Elder blocks, and you need to decide if putting some damage on the thing it's fighting or just block and fetch is more important. And Unsummon isn't a get-out-of-jail-free-card for things you can recklessly swing with for advantage while still killing people's stuff, like Geist of Saint Traft.

>> No.33311637

>>33311613
Monstorsity is fine as is. and I agree about level up

>> No.33311645

>>33311603
because of insecure people who think anything asian is weaboo and thus earns them a beating by the local bullies, but yeah lots of people had problems with the flavor
my only problem was the amount of hideousness in the art, most humans look like ass and the patrons look like intestinal tracts

>> No.33311650

>>33311616
not by a longshot

>> No.33311665

>>33311369
They won't axe modern, but they will make that power drained format several years down the line.

>> No.33311677

>>33311637
transform would have allowed to have a small polukranos on one side and a big ass nyx infused one on the other
a regular lion on one side and the fleecemaned one in the other

>> No.33311679

>>33311645
Another part of it is that magic's mostly western and the western perception of ancient japan is "Ninjas and samurais and only those" Kamigawa drew too much on reality and it confused/disappointed people

>> No.33311694

>>33311645
No, you idiot, learn your mtg history. People didn't think it was too weeaboo, they thought it wasn't weeaboo enough. Plebs wanted Samurai and ninjas and other sengoku crap but they got Spirited Away instead. This is all really well understood stuff, and it shits me when people like you try and reverse engineer what happened through a bullshit recent perspective, rather than actually living through it, and reading what critics and designers had to say about it.

>> No.33311744

>>33311694
Actually it's both. SOme people thought it was too weeb (Though those people thin EVERYTHING japanese is weeb and are usually ignored) and others thought the opposite

>> No.33311750
File: 30 KB, 223x310, Image.ashx.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33311750

>>33311637
The only thing that irked me about monstrosity is that a majority of the things that had it could actually already be considered "monstrous", (smite the monstrous could kill most of them without them triggering)

I would have liked to see bird hatchlings, enchanted giants, spiderlings, dragon whelps and snakes that started off small early game, but got huge way later to justify "monstrous" rather than "big dumb creature gets even bigger".

>> No.33311753

>>33311679
I really need to yet meet and talk IRL to a person who was actually confused by Kamigawa
Disappointed, maybe, i mean i would have liked more ninjas in it, but confused? who the fuck gets confused by it? the cards constantly tells you there is a war between the spirits and the mortals, those people probably get confused when looking at a traffic light, thinking it might indicate the flavor of the street crossing, not whether or not is ok to cross it

>> No.33311766

>>33311753
More of "How is this japanese" not "What is going on"

>> No.33311783

Ok, we all know what Theros did wrong.

But what did it get right?

>> No.33311784

>>33311614
Jitte, Top, Gifts, Yosei (before he was made obselete in later sets), Kiki-Jiki, Hinder (shouldn't see play but some people just really like tucking), Ideas Unbound, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, Kataki, Hokori, think I am missing a few.

>> No.33311802

>>33311784
Kokopuffs

>> No.33311806

>>33307938
[Choosing which creature to remove when] is a layer of play that [having just creatures] makes irrelevant, and dumbs down play.
not jibberish, just poorly worded.

>> No.33311812

>>33311783
Strive has a bit of promise. Bestow would be great if it wasn't overcosted as fuck.

>> No.33311818

>>33311766
>"How is this japanese"
For creature like the kirin, yeah maybe those are obscure for most people,but it has the long dragons of asian mythology, it has samurais and oni (oni are not obscure by any means, at least not to the people hooked on fantasy stuff like MtG) and fucking asians all over the place

>> No.33311824

>>33311616
Not at all, but it is up there. It is better than Masques and Kamigawa overall for blocks, and BNG is bottom 3 for sets (with Homelands and Prophecy), but Theros was probably around Scourge tier and Journey was probably around Betrayers tier.

>> No.33311828

>>33311812
strive is just multikicker

Theros limited was pretty sweet

>> No.33311834

>>33311783
I think Heroic is a good step towards making combat tricks relevant and worth it. In an ideal world, the risk/benefit of tricks would be about equal, and Heroic almost gets there.

>> No.33311839

>>33311783
bestow was amazing as a concept, but wizards was afraid to make anything playable.

>> No.33311842

>>33311694
half of the people wanted yugioh, the other half did not wanted yugioh and thought R&D was delivering yugioh

>> No.33311852

>>33311818
Dude, the block was like 90% weird-arse spirits. I'm not saying I didn't like it, but they outnumber the long dragons and oni and shit like ten to one

>> No.33311868

>>33311818
really, this whole conversation is just more proof that the correct answer to the question of "What was wrong with Kamigawa" is "WE DON'T FUCKING KNOW. LOTS OF THINGS APPARENTLY.

>> No.33311878

>>33311753

For the third time in this thread.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/89401624858/i-really-appreciate-your-stance-that-top-down-blocks#notes

>> No.33311890

>>33311828
Half the mechanics in MTG can be replicated using kicker or multikicker.

>> No.33311900

>>33311784

Sakura Tribe Elder
Glimpse Nature
Pithing Needle
Kira, Great Dick-Spinner
Threads of Disloyalty

Are some other cards I can think from the top of my head

>> No.33311902

>>33311828
Multikicker is a god-tier keyword doe.

The cheaper strive stuff has potential, I can see something like launch the fleet being nice in khans if its a token based set as spwculated

>> No.33311906
File: 226 KB, 764x744, headasplode.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33311906

>>33311824
>mfw a reasonable, balanced, thoughtful appraisal in this thread

>>33311868
We don't. But most of the articles written by designers, critics, commentators etc. mention that people were disappointed they didn't get more cliche Samurai/Ninja shit, and that they found all the spirits weird and unpleasant. I think it's even on the wiki...

>> No.33311917

>>33311839
>wizards is afraid to make anything playable
that's probably engraved on an iron plate at the WotC offices

>> No.33311922

>>33311852
>Japanese mythology
>everything, living and dead, has a spirit
>too many spirits and shit
No fucking shit anon

>> No.33311933

>>33311852

Well to be fair Kami is the japanese word for spirit and gawa means "god" or something

>> No.33311939

>>33311868
I think Kamigawa would have been considered really good if they just upped the general powerlevel a bit.

The Naruto faggots can just go kill themselves, because the Kamigawa flavor was more accurate to Japan than anything they would have came up with.

>> No.33311945

>>33311917
The worst part is, this whole issue can be traced back to ONE CARD

>> No.33311957

>>33311878
stop posting his fucking tumblr, it wants want to stab him with a screwdriver

>> No.33311959

>>33311922
>>33311933
Pay attention, m8s. We're talking about the relative obscurity of various parts of Japanese mythology. The dragons and oni being recognisable to plebs doesn't mean anything when they're outnumbered 10-1 by weird spirits that have no pop culture presence

>> No.33311960

>>33311945
Being?

>> No.33311963

>>33311945
What card, pray tell?

>> No.33311965

>>33311939
It was a whole bunch of things that made it suck

>> No.33311990

>>33311960
>>33311963
Jace

>> No.33311992

>>33311922
wizards is now designing for the Call of Duty audience, instead of using a fantasy game of wizards flinging spells at each other to introduce new mythologies they have to maximize profits and instead provide the mythology of the Michael Bay and James Cameron movies

>> No.33311993

>>33311802
I was referring to eternal formats, I considered Kokoshu but forgot if it saw eternal play (openly admitting that, it has been a long time since Kamigawa was released and I've lost track of some eternal seasons). I erred on the side of not including things that weren't widely known to see play in eternal, it is why I left Arashi and Meloku off the list as well, along with Steve.

>>33311900
Yep, should have listed Steve come to think of it, along with Glimpse, Pithing Needle, Kira and Threads.

>>33311906
Hey, I don't see a need to get into claims of "OMG MAGIC IS DEDEDEDED", but it is clear to me that Theros block is in the bottom 3 of all time (behind Masques and my personal favourite, Kamigawa) but unlike Masques and Kamigawa it didn't have good sets (Champions was a strong set that had the bad luck of the Mirrodin block monster on its shoulder, and Betrayers was pretty fuckawesome, but Saviors was easily in the worst sets ever made). Somehow though, BNG is worse than Saviors, worse than The Dark, worse than just about everything other than Homelands and Prophecy (which it would be hard pressed to be worse than to be honest, hell I was suprised to see it stack up so badly against Fallen Empires).

Magic is at an awkward place right now, Innistrad was great but it was lightning in a bottle, and it seems like Wizards is stupidly chasing at replicating Innistrad in a dumbed down fashion, and is head scratching at why that isn't working and just trying it to a greater extent instead of realising that making good sets makes sets good, not forcing opinion of the set to change to think it is good.

>> No.33311994

>>33311783

Heroic is nice if you really on targeting combat tricks
Bestow would be good if Eidolon of Countless Battles wasn't the only playable card
Inspired is ass
Strive is bleh at best
Constellation is a shit

>> No.33311995

>>33311960
>>33311963
JtMS, presumably

>> No.33312015

>>33311990
They've been scared of other cards, a lot more, for a lot longer anon

>> No.33312017

>>33311965
No, it was the unplayability of the cards.
The mechanics were novel and interesting, the flavor was well-done, and the set had a well-defined legendary theme.

But the powerlevel made all that shit useless.

>> No.33312033

>>33311959
>The dragons and oni being recognisable to plebs doesn't mean anything when they're outnumbered 10-1 by weird spirits that have no pop culture presence

Fair enough I suppose

>> No.33312035
File: 31 KB, 223x310, Image[1].ashx_multiverseid=383097&type=.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33312035

>>33311963

>> No.33312048

>>33311959
>being recognisable to plebs
are "plebs"even a reasonable chunk of the MtG's audience? most of people I know who play may not have PhD degrees on several mythologies around the world, but certainly our knowledge of world folklore is at least Buffy the Vampire Slayer level and we are not against googling (yahooing back then) stuff on the internet

>> No.33312056

>>33312015
Yeah, but for some reason jace just kicked that fear into overdrive. It's like they have PTSD because of it and are scared to make good things again

>> No.33312059

>>33311990
>affinity
>black winter
>urzas block
>stoneforge
>tarmo
>Bob
They've been scared of a lot more than Jace for a while

>> No.33312063

>>33312048
Kamigawa wouldn't be so hated for it if they weren't, anon

>> No.33312075

>>33311993
>Yep, should have listed Steve come to think of it, along with Glimpse, Pithing Needle, Kira and Threads.

There's also Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni and Tendo Ice Bridge. Although Tendo Ice Bridge is usually the land budget players look for so meh

>> No.33312091

>>33311839
I blame the Development Team. Those assholes are afraid to cost nearly anything aggressively anymore.

>> No.33312092

>>33312059
Jace is the most recent one of those.

>> No.33312099
File: 29 KB, 396x575, doglol.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33312099

>>33312048
>are "plebs"even a reasonable chunk of the MtG's audience?

>> No.33312101

>>33311959
So? You understand that you can also insert something into pop culture, instead of tapping it?

I hope that fucking MaRo understands this, else KoT will be nothing but Genghis, horsewarriors and "get of my shitty wall".

>> No.33312119

>>33311994

Constellation was honestly the mechanic I thought they should have built the entire fucking block around.

Less focus on heroes vs monsters, although it'd still be there, more focus on "this is the enchantment block, and enchantments are the work of the gods. When they appear, STUFF HAPPENS."

>> No.33312128

>>33310721
Basically what this guy said.

>> No.33312135
File: 15 KB, 251x201, spessmuhreenfacepalm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33312135

>>33312101
I'm not defending MaRo, you dingus. I'm explaining why there was a disconnect between what people wanted out of Kamigawa and what they got, and why that means a lot of people didn't like the block

FUCK

>> No.33312136

>>33312056
Jaced, clamp, dredge
they have PTSD from all those, but Constellation was barely something to be afraid of, same goes for heroic
they are probably gonna play on the safe side of things until even the current newcomers start getting fed up of the best fit for their current standard deck is a 5/4 trampler for 5cmc

>> No.33312157

>>33311992
Honestly, a Michael Bay set would have been better than Theros.

At the very least we would have had good removal.

>> No.33312163

>>33310759
>bad mouthing Homelands.

Yeah, keep doing that.

>> No.33312166

>>33312099
is a fucking game of you throwing fireballs at the guy who controls a horde of sea serpents, is not like we are playing texas hold em with NASCAR/Playboy themed cards

>> No.33312187

>>33311992
Whelp. Fuck the world.

>> No.33312195

>>33312101
>"get of my shitty wall".
reminded me of South Park
if it does turn out like that, Khans will be fun, in an ironic, would-not-buy-a-single-card kind of way

>> No.33312198

>>33312135
But my point is that they had no reason to expect this, really. I mean, Mirage was based on Arabian/African stuff, but that doesn't mean everything was Djinns, flying carpets and tall dark men with spears jumping up and down, right?

>> No.33312220

>>33312092
Stoneforge was in the same set. Affinity is what really made them scared. They didn't want theros to be mirrodin 2.0 so they chose kamigawa 2.0

>> No.33312225

>>33312198
I don't think anyone blames WOTC for not predicting that, they just don't want to see it again. Which is why we get the Greek set filled with cliche Greek shit

>> No.33312234

>>33310721
>the IM SUCH A NERD crowd.
RIP MtG

>> No.33312243

>>33312198
You don't have arababoos the same way you have weeaboos, anon.

>> No.33312267

>>33312075
Tendo was the one that was on the tip of my tongue anon, thanks for that. Completely forgot Ink-tits too.


I think that as /tg/'s seemingly only fan of Kamigawa that is still able to admit its shortcomings, I should probably sort out the power level thing once and for all.

The problem with Kamigawa as a block to play was its power level, there is no debating that. What is wrong is when people parrot that the block had a "low power level". That is bullshit. What the set DID have was an unbalanced power level.

You see, GOOD blocks have a well spread power level, you have clear good cards and clear bad cards, but they are spread all through the set. A good example would be Innistrad, which even ignoring a few "mistakes" (delver and snappy mainly) had strong cards in the rare slots, but also powerful commons and uncommons (many an FNM was won handily with burningvengeance.dec or spiderspawning.dec for one example). Yes, the rares felt like rares and the commons felt like commons, but they all felt GOOD to play.

Kamigawa though... That wasn't really the case. The block actually has some of the most powerful cards ever printed (you can check the list we have been compiling above for just some of those cards). It had strong control, supported combo strategies in the modern border, had good aggro and so on. What it didn't have was consistent power across the cards in the sets. The entire Soulshift mechanic, while a great concept, was overcosted, removal was memorably good (rend flesh/spirit, horobi's whisper, eye of nowhere come to mind), there were good bombs at rare, niche strategies to draft (Hana Kami Death Denied and a good arcane card like Glacial Ray should send shivers down the spine of people who faced it working in limited) but the great strategies were diluted by a steaming pile of SHIT.
(cont)

>> No.33312282

>>33312234
>implying significantly larger amounts of players that will be part of the "Crack packs because I don't buy singles, Fuck le scg and sleeves" is a bad thing for magic
I'd love to see my hobby grow, and then in 4 years when they are either good or gone, it'll increase demand for my Abu lands

>> No.33312302

>>33312225
i did not see any gyros in it
i did not see any wrestling in it
i did not see any yogurt in it
i did not see no Aphrodite or Hercules in it
i did not see no Xena the lesbian princess throwing the murder-frisbee around
they promised me a Disneyfied Greek landscape, they failed horribly, what the fuck is on with all those gold masked zombies?

>> No.33312303
File: 342 KB, 394x394, 1403628839656.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33312303

>2016 block is Return to Kamigawa
>Reprint Top and Onslaught fetches
>Every match goes to time

>> No.33312333

>>33312267
Another thing people overlook is how block-specific half of Kamigawa's mechanics were. All the shit that interacted with spirits and arcane was useless outside a very specific shell

>> No.33312337

>>33312302
I think Hero of Iroas was supposed to be Hercules

>> No.33312357
File: 153 KB, 368x296, 1402166550057.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33312357

>>33312303
>Reprint Top and Onslaught fetches
That would be hilarious.
And if they kept Top at uncommon, it would be even better.

>> No.33312384

>>33312267
(cont)
A shit set can still be fun, look at Fallen Empires without the print run problems and it was a poor set, but still really fun, because it was mostly consistently poor and played well with itself. I have fond memories of drafting Fallen Empires, I have fond memories of drafting the first 2 Kamigawa sets. But then came Saviors, and everything went to shit. Absolute shit. Shittier than shit shit. The set had SUCH a bad power level balance issue that it was obvious from the prerelease, whereas with Champions and Betrayers the power level issues were forgivable due to the overall power level making up for it, Saviors just took a huge dump on the block. Funnily enough, MaRo seems to claim now that Saviors was his attempt to save a lost block, but I digress.

Kamigawa's last issue is that it was a "last straw" set for many players. A lot of people left in Mirrodin, lets be honest here. A LOT OF THEM. Those that were left though were already on shaky ground, and for many, Kamigawa's unfamiliar atmosphere and inconsistent power level were the final straw. The concept of primacy and recency suggests that we remember the first and the last, so to speak, and Kamigawa was the last straw for many players. All of these things combine, having one of the worst 5 sets in the games history, having a rough power level, and following on from a block monster that drove many away to begin with, to make Kamigawa a set remembered as being as bad as it was. There were other things, such as the parasitic mechanics (but the cycling parasitism isn't remembered as poorly as cycling went on to see more printing, just sucks to be a niche setting for mechanics I guess) but next time /tg/ is shitposting/arguing that "KAMIGAWA WAS SHIT LOW POWER LEVEL" you know it is bullshit, just like when Kamigawa defenders (including yours truly in a bad move) say "NO IT WAS A GREAT BLOCK NO FAULTS YOUR JUST SALTY" that is equally bullshit. (cont)

>> No.33312394

>>33312220
>They didn't want theros to be mirrodin 2.0 so they chose kamigawa 2.0
>I don't want to eat babies so i will breakfast on manure
Those were by far not their only choices. They have been doing this design things for some years, they know they were likely to make only colored permanents for the enchantments, colored cards are less easy to abuse than colorless ones. They already knew Rancor power level on Rancor CMC can get out of hand, but also knew stuff like unflinching courage on a witchstalker is acceptable power level. They were not going bling at this the same way they went blind at equipment. Even if they went slow and steady on the Bestow mechanic it does not explain the lack of quality enchantress strategy, aura-hexproof strategy, or just regular old enchantments doing useful things

>> No.33312400

>Dev team pushes khans late in development after poor reception to BNG power level
>Create Affinity 3.0: Tokens Edition
>Modern gets a good T1 aggro deck besides Shatterscoop.dek
>standard gets fuked but who cares

A man can dream

>> No.33312427

>>33312384
(final cont, just the tl;dr really).

Kamigawa was a mediocre to poor block with two very good sets and one abysmally bad set. Anyone who looks at Champions and Betrayers sees how promising the sets were, and how they are actually quite good but have major issues that should have been solved. Saviors completely fucked the block beyond repair instead of tying it up though, and the block will forever suffer for it.

tl;dr don't believe nostalgic fa/tg/uys about Kamigawa, but don't believe MaRo and friends trying to Scapegoat one block that mostly was quite good for a good couple of years' worth of fuckups from Wizards.

>> No.33312431

>>33312333
funny this is how the print stuff now, make a mechanic, never use it again
hope you like your inspired cards anon, you won't be seeing any of those any time soon

>> No.33312488

>>33312400
they won't touch khans much, not even if theros had set the place on fire
maybe they have adjusted a dozen or so cards in the whole block
if they tweak anything based on theros it will be 2015's block

>> No.33312504

>>33312431
I don't think you quite understand. The vast majority of keyworded mechanics are never seen outside their blocks. That's true for every set, good or bad. Soulshift or Splice, for example, could only be used with Kamigawa cards, since Arcane and (most) spirit cards are only printed in Kamigawa blocks. Are you very new to the game? This thread might not be for you.

>> No.33312507

>>33312431
I Really hate those Italic type "keywords". They don't have to be there at all and the card would function exactly the same, and they will probably print themselves into a corner because all the available card functions will be part of some "mechanic".

>> No.33312521

>>33312357
Returning mechanic is Transmute.
The basic land slot is replaced by one of several counterspells, including Counterspell or Force of Will incredibly rarely
Divining Top at COMMON.
Onslaught + Zendikar Fetches.
Wrath of God and Damnation reprint
Snapcaster reprint

BRING MY CONTROL BACK

>> No.33312525

>>33312394
Its kinda funny, what we now call the "artifact block" was meant to be the enchantment block. They promised not to repeat that with Theros, and they didn't. Instead we got a creature block.
Just about every relevant enchantment creature would have been relevant if it was a.... CREATURE! Constellation had promise and might find its place in future, but only Blossoms really matters, and that was just a worse enchantress that cantrips itself (so in other words, worse enchantment support but hey its an enchantment so it must play into the enchantment theme hey?).

It would be nice to one day see an Enchantment block, but I guess we have to get through a non permanent block being sold as the enchantment block and a lands block being sold as an enchantment block first.

>> No.33312533

>>33312521
>The only creatures are Morphling and manlands

>> No.33312560

>>33312533
Nah, we can have Snappy and Wall of Omens too. Oh, and green needs creatures too, so modern legal Wall of Blossoms reprint.

And Meloku for my value boner to reach orgasm

>> No.33312565

>>33311957

No Anon! No! Because people have to know; this community has to know what's cooking at Wizard's HQ and let me tell you Anon it's not some tasty fuckin' ramen that's for sure.

I don't even dislike Maro, in fact I kind of like him, but like Nancy the whore I don't have to trust him to like him and after reading that post I know I can't trust him.

So I am going to hold on to this link and I am going to post it whenever it is relevant to the discussion at hand.

I will do this so we will all know what to expect a decade from now when "Return-agu to Kamigawa-ru" rolls around. And when it does Anon I'll cackle from the rooftops and cry to my drinking glass and climb the mountains to scream my curses of The Casual Scum to the gods themselves.

Then I will stop linking to Maro's blog.and that Anon is principle.

>> No.33312586

>>33312560
>>33312533
Red needs a creature too, so we can give them Magnivore. Give us some Stone Rain too.

>> No.33312590

>>33312586
No, Molten Rain.

>> No.33312608

>>33312533
No. Also every Morphling variant printed, plus two more for white and black to have one as well.

And Snapcaster and Wall of Omens like what >>33312560 said. And Wall of Blossoms. And a red Snapcaster too while we're at it.

>>33312586
>>33312590
You mean SINKHOLE. And Armageddon.

>> No.33312609

>>33312590
Print both.And Sowing Salt

HEY GUYS I FOUND ANOTHER GOOD, POWERFUL KAMIGAWA CARD.

How could I forget old salty tears?

>> No.33312635

>>33312608
Oh, and reprint Goyf and Confidant and Stoneforge and make a red 2 drop on par with them.

Let's make this set so stupid that EVERYONE realizes how shit Theros is in comparison.

>> No.33312644

>>33312504
>Soulshift
that ones works with any spirit creature card

the only mechanic who does not work with cards outside of kami is Splice
epic, offering (patron of the orochi), ninjutsu, bushido and the rest have no problem interacting with cards outside of the block

>> No.33312664

>>33312644
Spirits are pretty Kamigawa-centric. There are others in other sets, but you'd be hard pressed to find Soulshift able to be used anywhere else

>> No.33312670

>>33312664
Innistrad if they had gone down tribal mechanics could have worked for W/U.

>> No.33312675

>>33312644
Offering is so criminally underused.
It would have made perfect sense with tribal sorceries and instants, I have no idea why it isn't a thing.

>>33312664
Soulshift-with-Innistrad-spirits is actually half decent, as long as you stick to the few good soulshift cards.

>> No.33312679

>>33312664
Innistrad. Which was Kamigawa 2.0

>> No.33312685

>>33312670
Also rather ironically, Theros block.

>> No.33312707

>>33312675
>so criminally underused.
almost every named mechanic is criminally underused

>> No.33312742

>>33312707
Offering is actually one of the few mechanic that IS underused. There's a cycle with it and that's it.

>> No.33312761

>>33312685
Horrific irony:

Homelands and Theros both shared minotaur tribal.

Clearly minotaur tribal being in a set/block is a VERY bad omen.

>> No.33312776

>>33312742
contraptions are only referred to in one card

>> No.33312779

>>33312742
This, every side product with new cards has me checking the spoiler in vain for new offering cards. There is so much potential as well, a black demon with Human Offering, a beast of the forest with Elf Offering, shit like that. I think that Champion was their attempt at revisiting it.

>> No.33312787

>>33312761
wasn't didgeridoo the only mino-tribal card in homelands?

>> No.33312795

>>33312761
you should not even mention it, Hasbro shills might be about and will spill the beans, then Hasbro executives will whip MaRo until he signs an addendum to his contract in which he accepts to never make minotaur tribal again

>> No.33312803

>>33312635
>filling a set with really good cards makes other sets seem bad

no fucking shit

>> No.33312806

If it doesn't warp legacy, its not a set worth anything.

>> No.33312824

>>33312795
Hasbro doesn't care as long as money is made, and Theros still made a lot of money

>> No.33312832

>>33312776
THat actually has an explanation. Wizards wanted to put a card into future sight that was "A lord with no tribe and would neve rhave one." They eventually made Steamflogger. It was intentional. They never had any intention of making contraptions a thing.
...That is until recently where their stance has changed to "We'll do it when we figure out what they do okay? Just stop asking!

>> No.33312835

>>33312806
If it doesn't have an effect on Legacy, it really isn't a set worth anything.

Basically, FUCK THEROS

OH fuck I just realized how fucking lame the name is. Theros.

T heros. T Heros.
THE HEROS

It's like "DURRR" tier naming.

>> No.33312844

>>33312824
theros is the most opened set

>> No.33312864

>>33312832

The Goblin Kaboomist or whatever it's called is sort of how I imagined Contraptions working, tbh.

>> No.33312867

>>33312844
And RTR was before it. And Innistrad before it. The game is currently having an upturn in popularity, remember, Fallen Empires was hugely opened because a shitload of it was made, it was sold cheap, and it was riding on the success of previous sets. The fact it was shit is irrelevant.

>> No.33312871

>>33312779
Yeah, but Champion is easy.
You either champion the thing with an ETB effect, the cheapest, most useless thing, or Bitterblossom.

Offering has a huge amount of choices, if it was ever used. I mean, you could use it to get something big down really early, at the cost of being easy to twoferone. Do you hardcast the Offering on your turn, or do you hold it in your hand for combat tricks with its Offering cost?
Do you sac a big guy to it, or a little guy, or none at all? there's a lot more... stuff to it than Champion.

>> No.33312877

>>33312824
not necessarily true, Hasbro likely has WotC enforcing reprint policies having "learned about the lesson learned" when the first Reserve List was created, it is also likely the "we will never revisit Kamigawa ever" comments on WotC's site derive not from R&D knowing they will never be able to get the set right, but becase Hasbro told them "Jap no sell, you no make Jap again"
If anything carries a risk of getting the fanbase to quit R&D will be forced to change direction in the polar opposite at full speed,

>> No.33312883

>>33312871
I know, I am on your side in this anon, I was just saying that Champion seemed to be their attempt at remaking it, didn't mean to say that I liked it.

>> No.33312911
File: 67 KB, 312x445, 112.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33312911

>>33304630
See
>>33304736

And I don't mind.
The reason heavy amounts of two mana cost kill spells and counters, one mana cost bounces were ever developed in the first place is because the average cost of creatures went down and their effectiveness went up.
Now that the Average mana cost in creature is also going back up, due to creatures now being more focuses on special rule-bending effects, it only makes sense to make said removal and bounces also rise by a equal percentage.

Check Green Creatures if you want a more noticeable trend in the ManaCost/Upkeep to PowerCreep ratio.
This P-O-S costs 5 where a 2/3 Infect (situationally a Wither 4/5 if played right) is cmc3, around the time Removal was still at it's peak. Now while the power level hasn't gone down, the average CMC has gone up, and all that does is basically allow for more useful creatures to function as enchantments/when-enters-the-field-Sorceries that can attack, like they've been becoming.

>> No.33313068

>>33312776
Time Spiral doesn't count, ya dingus

>> No.33313111

>>33306510
I've been playing for a year and I think all the recent sets are shit. I've gone out of my way to obtain complete sets of old sets for drafting and building old standard decks to play wit friends.

We all agree creatures should not be the focus of the game they are only 1/5th of the game. Also lands that don't produce mana are A+

>> No.33313198

>>33306862
You, I like you.

>> No.33313314

>>33313198
You're in the minority. Most of this "crazy stack bullshit" tends to piss people off for gumming up the game.

>> No.33313344

>>33313314
it's because is not immediately apparent and you need to learn it
it is the most engaging interactivity in the game, at least for me too

>> No.33313359

Does anyone else find it amusing that the only way to make enchantments relevant was to make them immune to the traditional forms of removal AND nerf the shit out of removal at the same time?

Like to make artifacts relevant they printed better equipment and artifacts. But to make enchantments relevant they make enchantments indestructible or turn into creatures when you kill the creature they're enchanting.

It's all very amusing, even wizards doesn't know how to make a proper enchantments matter block because nobody played any of the enchantments unless they were already good as creatures without the enchantment rule.

Like, we know good enchantments are possible - Phyrexian Arena, Necropotence, Detention Sphere, Angelic Destiny, and Rancor are all excellent enchantments. Wizards just didn't seem to know how to make good enchantments in this block though.

I just think that's a little amusing.

>> No.33313370

>>33313314
Man, I'm still a little miffed at the template change of Oblivion Ring effects

>> No.33313376

>>33313314
If I cant make my opponent call bullshit and cry out for he judge I'm not having fun.

I love stack shenanigans, I love the stack period. I wish more things acknowledged the stack even existed.

>> No.33313390

>>33313359
They are probably afraid that the enchantments would overshadow their precious creatures.

>> No.33313429

>>33313390
>Enchantments
>Important in an Enchantments matter block
You don't say.

>> No.33313445

The game slowed down this way when Time Spiral/Lorwyn was around. Then Alara hit and things sped the hell back up again(Remember Cascade and Bloodbraid Elf?).

It's all the worst shit ever unless something breaks the game and makes things go on automatic. And the fact that the game is about to slow down further is going to snap some folks underpants until it subtly ramps up again in 2015.

You'll be having the "Khans is shit" thread in two months, mark my words. And then you'll play it any goddamned way.

>> No.33313450

>>33313359
Seal of fire is playable, so are several other seals.
The Fonts are crap
All monocolor gods excepts Nylea are playable in some way, not meaning competitive, just playable. Phenax, UG and G/W are awful. The rest of dual gods are playable.
Something like Totem Armor would have worked out.
They nailed it with printing Banishing Light, since is the way they want Oblivion Ring effects to work
Eidolon of Revel is good, but being an enchantment is kind of irrelevant and harms it more than helps it.
Almost all the Bestow creatures would be good if their bestow cost were not so inflated
You don't need to make enchantments indestructible or give them hexproof to make them good, you just have to print them at a reasonable mana cost. Adding support like Mesa Enchantress is secondary

>> No.33313463

>>33313376
Making direct references to the stack in card text (even reminder text) is not something that Wizards wants to do. That said, I love funky rules interactions and want to see really cool things happen. I got to use Sun Titan to enchant someone else's Lazav the other day, it was great.

>> No.33313464

>>33313359
This is how it SHOULD work.

Artifacts are actively used and should never have a permanent effect that is happening. They should always have an activation cost to start working and should end at some point.

Enchantments should change how the game is played and offer passive effects. Things like "You may play an addition land on each of your turns." or "Creatures you control have hexproof."

The problem is they gave many enchantment effects to creatures like the praetors. They don't know what to do with enchantments now because they bled into artifacts and into creatures. The only real thing left for them is major powerful effects but they will never do that because they hate powerful cards.

>> No.33313488

>>33313445
Time spiral still had great things like Magical Negro Man Stopping Time, Damnation, Suspend Mox, Suspend Recall, Rift Bolt, Goyf, etc...
Lorwyn had Blossom, Seize, walkers, nazi elves

>> No.33313639
File: 222 KB, 265x370, Boon-Satyr-Theros-Spoiler[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33313639

>>33313450
>Almost all the Bestow creatures would be good if their bestow cost were not so inflated

I swear, I'm the only guy I know that runs Boon Satyr at my LGS.

Card is so damn good

>> No.33313662

>>33313639
boon for 1GGG would be great

>> No.33313682

>>33313662
Boon for 3GG is still great. It does wonders in my Prophet deck

>> No.33313754

>>33313450
>Sorcery speed shock is playable
Ummm no.
>the gods are playable
Didn't i make direct reference to how they had to make enchantments indestructible to make them even remotely playable?
>Totem armor
Yes, totem armor is cool and would have been great
>Banishing Light
They printed a strictly worse version of Oblivion Ring that is also worse that detention sphere (detention sphere used the new oring effect first)
>Eidolon of the Revel is good but the enchantment part is irrelevant
Yup, that is exactly how you don't make enchantments relevant. Being an Enchantment in an enchantment block should be very relevant.
>Almost all bestow creatures but like 2 are completely unplayable garbage
Again, enchantments are supposed to matter, that they don't means someone fucked up.
>You don't need to make enchantments indestructible or give them hexproof to make them good....
Well aware, I am simply pointing out that unlike in their very recent Artifact block they completely fucked up and failed to make artifacts very relevant. Their primary method of making enchantments relevant was to make them partially immune to removal which is shit compared to just making playable enchantments in the first place.

The problem I have with theros is that it isn't Enchantments matter. It's Indestructibility matters. The block's playable enchantments aren't good because they're enchantments that are good or mesh with the block, they're good because you can't get rid of them.

Think of it this way.
Sol Ring is a really damn good artifact
Erebos is a good Enchantment.

Sol Ring is good because its artifact ramp that's beyond godlike.
Erebos is good because he's indestructible.

Sol Ring is good because it is an artifact and because it is good. Erebos is good because he is indestructible. One of these makes use of it's type, the other is only relevant because it's indestructible.

>> No.33313884

>>33313754
my post was just to give an opinion in how to make the enchantments in theros better, which is summed up in "make em cheaper"
sol ring is good because it cost 1, it would be good it costed 2, but if you released it costing 4 and coming into play tapped it's shit
all bestow creatures are costed OK in their normal MC, its their bestow cost that makes them shit
bestow is actually not even a bad mechanic, you get a dude if your original dude get murdered, good stuff,
indeed they fucked up with theros i am not supporting theros as is, but as what it could have been

>> No.33313906

>>33313450
>implying Nylea isn't playable
She's not GREAT by any means, but she's definitely playable.

>> No.33313950

>>33313754
>rift bolt not playable
>shock dealing 3 damage
u wut m8

>> No.33314292

>>33313950
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185817
Seal of Motherfucking fire, look it up sometime

>>33313884
Okay, cool. I can get behind that.

I'm just really bothered that they didn't make the quality of being or not being an enchantment even matter in the slightest until JOU when that's what the entire block is supposed to have going for it.

>> No.33314414

>>33313639
Do you ever actually bestow him or do you just play him as a 4/2 beater with flash?

>> No.33316304

>>33306749
This. I feel mad when I see people complaining that they can't abuse anymore, even though X was never meant to happen. Think of it like an update patch, if you will

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