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33068924 No.33068924 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What if Christianity never balkanized?
No Catholic-Orthodox split
No Reformation
Muhammad is a Catholic saint
etc.

>> No.33069229

>>33068924
>Muhammad is a Catholic saint
Errr...
Without the splits in christianity? You mean everyone is orthodox?
No crusades, no religion war between protestants and catholics because neither exist.
Europe is significantly better off economically due to much less war, no pope-related shenanigans...
Colonization of 'murica is slowed because protestant exile doesn't happen maybe?
But beyond that the world is either very similar or unpredictably different, you're talking about radical changes happening over the course of a millenia after all.

>> No.33069357

>>33068924
What if your wife orbits my dick?

>> No.33069434

World peace. In order for it not to split ever at any point i.e not even Coptic Christians or Armenian church or Gnosticism or any of the thousands of interpretations and liturgical disagreements then everybody would have to agree about literally everything and never even think out of line

>> No.33069460
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33069460

>>33068924

If christianity never factionalized, roman catholicism would not exist. The western church is an intensely Germanicized departure from the sort of Christianity practiced in judea at the beginning.

You have to conceptualize a religion that made no regional adaptations. there'd be no catholics, no coptics, no greek or russian orthodox, no celtic christians.

Basically the problem is this. Adaption to the regional climate is what makes christianity work. If you didn't have the german-ness of western christianity, the african-ness of coptic christianity, the greek-ness of greek christianity, then the Religion basically wouldn't have spread at all. Christianity would remain to this day a religion practiced almost exclusively by ethnic jews in judea.

>> No.33069468

>>33069434
>christian hivemind
How horrifying.

>> No.33069494

>>33069434
>Christianity as a hivemind
>Americas splintered like 18th century Europe because no colonization

This feels like it has potential

>> No.33069524
File: 538 KB, 2482x1777, maps-ancient-churches-200-500AD.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33069524

>>33069460

>> No.33069557

>>33069229
>no pope-related shenanigans...

such as being the deciding factor in establishing of the HRE, which was the one thing unifying the waring German tribes that would, without it, have just continued on warring against each other and not adopting roman culture in the heart of Europe.

Sure sounds like an enviroment inviting for economic growth.

>> No.33069570

>>33069494
>18th century Europe
More like 18th century Sub-Saharan Africa.

>> No.33069595

>>33069229
>Europe is significantly better off economically due to much less war, no pope-related shenanigans..
[citation needed]
Because religion causes war, right? It's not actually about securing power in the form of cash, land, or purging your own population of too many idealistic young peasants that might rise up against you.

But OP might be ignoring that christianity was just expanding the jewish covenant to all peoples. So why are we using christianity as the standard, instead of judaism?

>> No.33069600

>>33069460
...Then there would be just regional differences between Christianity, just like it had been when Christianity first started spreading?

Early popes were smart enough to understand that you can't take away local customs and traditions without people getting mad. So they just focused on spreading the basic ideas of god and Jesus and the saints, and shifted a few holidays around. They focused on making things more like back in Rome later.

There was no organized Christianity in the beginning - it was a sect of Judaism that formed hundreds of other sects and cults. It took years of wrangling to get the basic philosophical issues ironed out. Eventually Christianity became a state religion in the Roman Empire, but then Rome got cut off from the rest of the world.

>> No.33069624
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33069624

>>33069557
Bismarck unified Germany not the Pope.

>> No.33069720

>>33069600

Then it would have to remain utterly decentralized and leaderless forever.

You can have a church, an institution with doctrine and organization. If you have that, the regional differences between rome, byzantium, alexandria will all become mutually untenable. The church fractures and you have exactly what our history looks like.


Or you can have a completely autonomous collective of bishoprics in each city. The religion means a thousand different things in different places. There is no organization, no doctrine. The Church does not exist.

>> No.33069780

>>33069595
Christianity's still there as an unifying force, but there's no dissension inside it, meaning no purging of heretics, no crusades (the crusades are a catholic invention, the orthodox regarded it as un-christian. No catholicism, no crusades). No pope (instead we have a pentarchy) means less sucking up to one guy who's able to excomunicate people basically at whim.
A lot of fighting was had on the basis of religious difference within christianity.

>So why are we using christianity as the standard, instead of judaism?
See OP: "no great schism" and "no reformation". Meaning the main branches of catholicism and protestantism never existed. We extended a bit and decided that the minor heresy didn't happen.

>> No.33069802
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33069802

>>33069624
Bismarck unified half of Germany.

>> No.33069804

>>33069720
Most religions aren't centralized. The Catholic Church is the exception not the rule.

>> No.33069836

>>33069570
17th, then. I really need to read up on my own history, German states were a clusterfuck

>> No.33069849

>>33069780

>one guy who's able to excomunicate people basically at whim.

Somehow I suspect you haven't delved too deeply into the history of the medieval church.

>> No.33069919

>>33069460
That's not entirely true.

If you recall, the Great Schism (Orthodox/Catholicism) happened during a time when there were five Episcopal Sees: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. There were already factions in the Church due to regional liturgical differences, which is part of the reason for the Schsim.

The Orthodox Church has no concept of Papal Primacy, so the different patriarchs (and their churches) remain in Ecumenical Communion with each other. I understand that the Catholic Church has this structure as well (excepting the Primacy of the Pope). So, in essence, this decentralized structure continues to this day. The Orthodox patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem are still around using exactly the same organizational structure they did before the Great Schism. Regional differences ("tradition") is usually permitted to some degree, but the core tenets of the Church remain immutable.

So, >>33069720 is not correct.

I imagine what would happen is that the Church would continue to spread, and new areas would be granted Patriarchates of their own, so the original Pentarchy would expand. Both the Orthodox and Catholic churches have done this (there are nine Patriarchs in Orthodoxy now and Roman Catholicism has six Patriarchs in addition to the Pope).

In closing, this is completely unrealistic because it implies a unity of thought and lack of major divisions that simply doesn't happen. It would certainly be a very different world!

>> No.33069934
File: 362 KB, 775x599, 775px-Greater_austria_ethnic.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33069934

>>33069802
Why would Austria give up it's Great Power status just to be a powerless house in a protestant empire?

>> No.33069967

>>33069780
>unifying force
>no guidance or head of church

>but muh pentarchy!
Well Rome falls, Constantinople falls, Alexandria falls, they all still fall, and then none of them have a suficient claim to rule.

>> No.33069988

>>33069934
Oh I dont know, maybe because in the Great German solution they would be head of state?

The German-German war wasn't deliberately lost, you know.

>> No.33070022

>>33068924
>Muhammad is a Catholic saint

Wuh?

>> No.33070064

>>33069919

>In closing, this is completely unrealistic

Then why did you even bother writing it down?

>> No.33070079

>>33070022
Jesus is an Islamic prophet. It checks out.

>> No.33070086

>>33069988
Austria is just the cherry-red area on the map, everything else is essentially colonies with Slavic or Hungarian people. They would have no place in a German empire, not in a time when nationalism was already in full swing

>> No.33070094

>>33069988
>in the Great German solution they would be head of state
No they wouldn't. If Austria was stupid enough to unify with Germany then all of it's minorities would go insane, Austria would lose it's empire and the northern protestants would take over.

>> No.33070129

>>33069967
Well, Orthodoxy has managed to remain a unifying force despite lacking an Earthly "head of church." You can argue hypotheticals and claim heresy all you want, but despite all the upheaval in the Orthodox world (i.e. Soviet Union, sacking of Constantinople (which might not even have happened due to lack of Islam??)) it's managed to persevere.

>>33070064
Because it's fun to pretend.

>> No.33070146

>>33070086
>>33070094
I mean, that's fair points and all, but historically, that's what happened. Austria tried repeadedly to make the german confederation into a state under Austrian rule.

I dont know what to tell you guys.

>> No.33070151

>>33070086
>>33070094
This. I want no stuffy Piefkes in my glorious Austro-Hungarian state.

>> No.33070166

>>33070146
The key difference being this: they didn't want to join. Steering the Germans from outside was enough.

>> No.33070169

>>33069229
>Colonization of 'murica is slowed because protestant exile doesn't happen maybe?

murica becomes a spanish colony.

>> No.33070184

>>33070079

Yes but Jesus came before Muhammad, that's why he was a Prophet, same with David and Abraham

If Jesus came after Muhammad I am not sure if He will be considered Prophet

>> No.33070204
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33070204

>>33070086

Is it weird that, as a big fan of Charlemagne, I think of the region of Alsace/lorraine/braband/belgium as the REAL germany, and I think of the french and the Waloons as being more German than the Germans?

>> No.33070206

>>33070166
that's not true. In the Frankfurter Fürstentag, they even proposed to take areas in that, at the time, were not part of the conferacy, like Hungary.

I mean, it's just historically inaccurate to claim they didnt want in.

>> No.33070240
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33070240

>>33070129
>which might not even have happened due to lack of Islam?
Well, Byzantine was able to survive for 700 years or so despite being right on the front lines so their defeat is by no means a sure thing.

>> No.33070259

>>33070204
that's Burgundy tho

>> No.33070260

They'd still probably shatter before the Ottomans did.

>> No.33070294

>>33070204
French and Wallonians were at best a mix of Franks and natives, they're not descended from Alemani or most of the other Germanic tribes.

They're not Germans. Neither was Charlemagne. Franks, maybe.

>> No.33070316

>>33070169
Spain would be as Christian as the Middle East, and so would the colonies due to lack of Protestantism.

Besides, with religion playing a role in isolating Russia from the Germanic people, and the Britain/France thing also being fueled by religious differences, there are too many variables to say what would happen.

The fragmentation of Christianity has played such a huge role in the history of Europe and the Middle East (and even the Americas!), that it's very very had to say what would happen if that was no longer an element. Maybe nothing at all would change, because people find reasons to hate each other despite their religious similarities.

>> No.33070335

>>33070294
"Germanic" is also just a name the Romans came up with when they had to seperate the "good" celts from the "bad" ones.

>> No.33070426

>>33070022
Muhammad made the conscious choice to reject Christianity after examining it. Had he decided to adopt in during his travels in the Roman provinces of Syria and Palestina, he probably would have taken it back home and using the charisma he was famous for, spread it among his own people. Those types of spreaders tend to be canonized.

>> No.33070452

>>33070129
sacking of Constantinople (which might not even have happened due to lack of Islam??)

But the venetian fleets that landed there told the crusading armies it was a completely different place. Constantinople was sacked because it was the only overland trade route from the east that venetian naval power couldn't dominate. Even without the schism and the crusades, it'd still be a huge bullseye for any mediterranean trade power seeking to expand profits.
Of course, if Constantinople isn't sacked, are the Byzantines still so weak that they fall to the Ottermen, who aren't actually muslim but still retain strong motives to not be under Greek rule in Anatolia? And without the Ottoman devşirme, do the Balkans turn into the complete clusterfuck they are now? If the Balkans don't, does Gavrilo Princip still put a bullet in the Archduke of Austria?

>> No.33070475

>>33068924

The Op asks
>What if Christianity never balkanized?

/tg/ creates a vision of christianity that is even MORE balkanized than the real one.

>> No.33070500
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33070500

>> No.33070547

>>33070294

The holy roman empire is supposed to be Frankish. Do you even shed the blood of the saxon men?

>> No.33070584

>>33070500
Is that from some abomination of a CK2 game?

>> No.33070597
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33070597

>> No.33070615

>>33070475
Well OP is clearly uninformed about how christianity grew and developed. It wouldn't be as popular as it is if it didn't do what it did historically.

>> No.33070635

>>33070547
No Christopher Lee, I don't. Now get you and your faulty genetic lineage research out of here. You're ruining Dracula for me here.

>> No.33070649

>>33070584
>americas
>CK2
I regret to inform you that CK2 doesn't include the western continent.
And the province size is too small to be EU4.

>>33070597
I wish..

>> No.33070656

>>33070584
>he doesn't play all Paradox games to exhaustion!
>laughingarmchairgenerals.jpg
Looks like EU II.

>> No.33070727

>>33070649
>wanting Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Palestina and Israel (etc etc) in the EU

FUCK YOU NIGGER! FUCK YOU! It's because of fucks like you that I have to put on the jacboots and beat everyone with bats. Nazis, Mulsims, antifas, it doesn't end!

>> No.33070736

>>33070597
>Switzerland EU member
Hahahahaha!

>> No.33070754
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33070754

>>33070547
>Frankish
>saxon
What's the difference?

>> No.33070775

>>33070754
>he doesn't listen to Christopher Lee's metal album!
>laughinghipsters.jpg

>> No.33070800

>>33070736
Yeah that one's a bit unrealistic...

>>33070727
Look on the bright side: if they're together in the EU at least they'd stop fighting.
Plus they'd have to follow our laws meaning no islamism and other radical kebabs.

>> No.33070849

>>33070800
>if they're together in the EU at least they'd stop fighting.

Yeah sure... It's not like Germany, the UK and the Netherlands would go ballistic over paying for the development of EVEN MORE 3rd world countries with no returns.
And I bet the sectarianism, the hatred for Jews, the extremist Muslims will all just disappear due to our magical european spell casting powers of FMI?

>> No.33070893

>>33070597
>European Union
More like the Brussels Empire.

>> No.33070897

*tips fedora*

>> No.33070921

>>33070184

During the rise of Islam, there as some debate within Christian Europe as to whether Islam should be characterized as a Christian heresy or as a distinct religion.

>> No.33070925

>>33070893
As if the Belgians have a say in anything. It's the Germans and the French, and maybe the Brits when they care enough.

>> No.33070932

>>33070849
It's not
>join the EU
>therefore everything magically disappear

It's
>issues severely reduced after years or even decades of hard, dedicated political work
>then join the EU
>use EU membership as pressure to reduce the issues further into disappearance

>>33070893
>USA
>more like washington DC Empire

>> No.33070974

>>33070932
But... I don't want the Arabs or North Africans in the EU. They aren't even in Europe. I can barely tolerate Ukraine. (because if we're going on historic precedent, give that shit back to the mongols and cossacks, you know?)

>> No.33070984

>>33070921

First time I hear, Im cruirous, tell me more anon

>> No.33071007

>>33070921
Like Mormonism?

>> No.33071082

>>33070974
>give that shit back to the mongols
What the fuck are you going on about?

>> No.33071089

>>33070925
Brits are a bunch of assholes who want all the benefits without paying a dime. They're like healthcare leeches but at a country scale.
Hell, they don't want the schengen space, they don't want the Euro, and they bitch almost more than germany about helping other countries despite paying far less.

>>33070974
Well, north africa was all european colonies for a while, so it make /some/ sense to incorporate them in a commonwealth at some point. That's not realistically for any time soon if ever tho.

>>33070984
Islam is an abrahamic religion, like judaism and christianity. Like at some point christianism was a judaic heresy, I can see debate whether islam was at some point a judaic/christian heresy.

>> No.33071106

>>33071082
Golden Horde. Ukraine. Do you even history? Or cossack Hetmanate. Or Crimean Khanate.

>> No.33071123
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33071123

>>33070932
>more like washington DC Empire
No shit.

>> No.33071129

>>33071106
Or Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Point is, Ukraine isn't a thing.

>> No.33071150

>>33070500
>Incan Empire
>in Mexico.
This map is dumb.

>> No.33071177

>>33071089

I know about Abrahamic branching anon, what I just know is that Christian leaders was once considered Islam as part of Christianity

>> No.33071184

>>33071106
The Golden Horde held onto that land for a historical split second. It's like claiming Germans are the true owners of Eastern Europe.

>> No.33071257

>>33071184
We should return Spain to Africa.

>> No.33071320

>>33071257
What are you talking about? It clearly belongs to the Romans. They were there longer.

>>33071184
It was an example, jocosely fashioned. My main point is, Ukraine has historically never really been a thing, I don't want the EU to recognize such dayfly nations. We'll never stop splitting countries at this rate. Yugoslavia is already like 6 different countries now (but at least it has some historical basis)

>> No.33071482

>>33071320
Yeah, G_d forbid they start recognizing false countries like palestine or kurdistan.

>> No.33071514

>>33071320
You know that nations were created out of fucking nothing since man learned to draw borders in the dirt right?
It didn't exist a couple decades ago? It does now. Deal with it.

>> No.33071536

>>33070974
>give that shit back to the mongols
Do you even know what Kievan Rus is?

>> No.33071555

>>33071482
Mandate Palestine was a thing before Israel though.

And yeah, it's a terrible idea to recognize either. Both arabs and jews have ethnic, cultural and historic claims to the place. Recognizing a country that doesn't try to unify the two cultures is a terrible idea.

>> No.33071631

>>33071514
And it will disappear again in a few more. We should try and recognize nation that are actually stable with a valid etno-cultural and historic claim.

>>33071536
Kievan Rus were located more northern than most of modern day Ukraine. And I'm not going to argue for it to be returned to Russia, I don't want to get myself crucified on the internet.

>> No.33071706

>>33071631
Historic claims just mean you had the might to claim it for some time.

Should the Sunni control all of Iraq because they were in control, despite being a minority?

>> No.33071758

>>33071706
Should WASPs control California?

>> No.33071824

>>33071631
Maybe, maybe not. Recognizing a nation increase its stability by a lot. We must try and make it work before saying "it doesn't have five centuries of history, it can't exist." How many nations arised without a "valid ethno-cultural and historical claim"? Almost all of them. Rare are the nations to actually have been born with a valid claim from the very start.
Even western europe. France was nothing more than an artificial partition the Charlemagne empire once, to give an example.

>> No.33071860

>>33071824
Hm, yes well. I'm too lazy to start remembering the names of any more countries. 179 is already a pain.

The more centralization the better, I say. Except for the US. They could use some more division. And we could unify some of the Balkans and Caucasus to compensate.

>> No.33071877

>>33071860
>I remember the names of 179 countries
Which country is just north of South Africa on the western coast of South Africa, then?

>> No.33071894

>>33071706
>Should the Sunni control all of Iraq because they were in control, despite being a minority

ethicity =/= nation.
One nation can have many peoples of different ethnicities inside it.

>> No.33071924

>>33071877
Namibia. Part of South Africa till the 60's

(didn't even have to check, I'm Dutch/Portuguese, so I know the history of southern Africa quite well. Bad pick anon.)

>> No.33071940

>>33071924
What's just north of Malacca, then?

>> No.33071979

>>33071940
You got me... Hold on lemme think... No wait a minute, you're fucking with me Malacca is a city. And I think you mean Malaysia?

Too bad motherfucker, my Grandfather was stationed in Indonesia. Part of the KNIL.

>> No.33071992

>>33071877
Namibia, previously German S-W Africa.

>> No.33071993

>>33071979
What's that tiny country just north of India that's not Nepal?

>> No.33071996

>>33071860
Successor coutries of former Yugoslavia?

>> No.33072002

>>33071979
No, looked it up, it is a state. And Johor is to the north.

Do you see how much of a pain this gets to be?

>> No.33072004

>>33071993
Tibet.

>> No.33072021

>>33072004
Where will I be if I make a wrong turn at Albuquerque?

>> No.33072027

>>33071996
Croatia, Slovakia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Servia. Oh, and Bosnia-Herzegovina. And Kosovo.

>>33071993
Bhutan?

>> No.33072028

>>33071996
The only true successor of Yugoslavia is Kosovo.

>> No.33072034

>>33072004
Tibet isn't a country.

>> No.33072053

Even if the Great Schism hadn't happened, many of the ecumenical councils that resulted in splits between, like, Chalcedonian Christianity and Nestorian Christianity still would exist so there would still be large branches of Christendom. Had Muhammad not decided to go his own way, well that's just one butterfly too big to extrapolate because the steppe nomads could have possible unified Tengriism into some sort of Islam thing and been just as bad as they were anyway.

But had the Great Schism never happened, it's very possible that many succeeding ones wouldn't have either because schisms tended to engender schism. If you break away, it's pretty hard to justify keeping other people from breaking away from you.

>> No.33072062

>>33071089
>Brits are a bunch of assholes who want all the benefits without paying a dime. They're like healthcare leeches but at a country scale.
>Hell, they don't want the schengen space, they don't want the Euro, and they bitch almost more than germany about helping other countries despite paying far less.

Is that how we come off? damn that's even worse than i thought. I'm ambivalent on the euro, but mainly because sterling is stronger, if only by a bit nowadays. Schengen space would actually be awesome. I'm also not too fussed on helping other countries.

I think a lot of the country still wants to think we're an empire, and another chunk wants to pretend we're the 5(2nd?) state of murika. sucks for those who actually pay attention to what the EU actually does for us.

>> No.33072063

>>33072027
>Slovakia
>Yugoslavia
I believe you mean Slovenia.
Also you forgot FYROM.

>> No.33072077

>>33072021
You're very shmart doc...

>>33072034
Niggas, you ain't gonna win this. I've played fucking every iteration of Europa Universalis, CK, Victoria II, Hearts of Iron and even paid attention in class.

>> No.33072101

>>33072053
>If you break away, it's pretty hard to justify keeping other people from breaking away from you.

Exactly the reason there are so many different branches of Protestantism. Perhaps it's a good thing, I would disagree, but we don't have evidence for the contrary so it's kinda hard to tell.

>> No.33072105

>>33072063
The fuck is FYROM? Also yes, I did mean Slovenia. Damn it.

I hate all these fucking countries.

>> No.33072110

>>33072077
That's not a place you wascally wabbit!

>> No.33072132

>>33072027
>Slovakia
It's Slovenia. (Slovakia is successor of Czechoslovakia.)
Also you forgot MonteNegro.
But close enough.

>> No.33072139

>>33072077
But Tibet isn't its own country. It's a province of China.

Deal with it, nerds.

>> No.33072182

>>33072139
I'm not disagreeing with you, there's historic precedent for it even, under the Qin.

I should go and get a fucking history degree, this shit must translate to *something*.

>>33072132
I did mention Montenegro, read it again.

>> No.33072195

There *should* be fewer countries but since the last world war, annexing territory was extremely frowned upon to the point of almost not even happening at all (still happened sometimes) because "sovereignty" is somehow considered sacred and every little ethnic group "deserves" their own plot of land and "self determination". We are starting to see this facade crumble though, what with Russia brazenly re-annexing the Crimea and no one really trying to stop it.

International law is such a joke.

>> No.33072211

>>33072053
The Mongols didn't need to create their own religion to be successful.

>> No.33072231

>>33072182
>I did mention Montenegro, read it again.
Damn, sorry. You're right. You actually forgot Macedonia.

>> No.33072261

>>33072231
Not sure about that one, lemme look it up. Pretty sure that's just former Ottoman...

No, yep, you're right. They were part of Yugoslavia. It's odd, I always think they should be part of Greece...

But then, I call Istanbul Constantinople, so who am I to judge.

>> No.33072264

>>33071894
Strictly speaking, if it contains multiple independent ethnic groups under one government, it stops being a nation and starts being an empire.

>> No.33072270

>>33070240
>dongola
lol

>> No.33072273

>>33072101
"Protestant" just means Non-Catholic Western Christian.

>> No.33072284

>>33072211
Tengriism was and is an actual religion, it just didn't have a central authority or holy book or anything like that which allowed both Christianity and Islam to effectively spread and proselytize.

I was just pointing out that had Muhammad not made Islam, the only competition to Tengriism in the steppes would have been Nestorian Christianity and that was mostly a Chinese/Persian thing anyway.

Perhaps the Zoroastrians would have made more headway, but I bet the Tengriists would have centralized eventually.

>> No.33072287

>>33072182
>I should go and get a fucking history degree, this shit must translate to *something*.
Get ready to face ugly old dykes with more degrees than common sense that don't give a fuck about most historical events but will have your ass expelled if you don't know every single detail of Suffragett movement.

>> No.33072301

>>33072273
Yeah, and there a metric fuckton of different denominations that are all "protestant" because they're all protesting their neighbors' sins.

>> No.33072310

>>33072287
Maybe I should just find different hobbies instead...

>> No.33072340

>>33072195
The problem with really trying to stop Russia doing anything is that the only credible threat is nuclear. And we've very carefully kept nukes out of the hands of small regional powers, by binding them into NATO, and assuring them we'll nuke Russia if Russia tries to take Latvia.

We're not kicking off world war three for Latvia, Latvia can go fuck itself, as far as we're concerned. We just wanted trade concessions.

>> No.33072379
File: 106 KB, 565x790, 1402200665810.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072379

Dear /tg/,
This kind of thread is why I adore you.
Love, a /m/oron

>> No.33072413

>>33072340
I am quite sure that once Russia re-incorporates most of the old principalities and grand duchies Putin will crown himself Tsar. They've brought back the double eagle for everything, they've brought back most of the old colors, they've re-established the Cossack Hosts. He divorced his older wife who only gave him a daughter.

He just needs a few more territorial re-conquests to re-energize the modern versions of the streltzy and boyars.

>> No.33072428

>>33068924
>>33068924
You'd have to change pretty much its entire history, all the way back to the first few decades. Christians were fighting each other and breaking off into sects for as long as their history had been recorded. Probably the only believable way to keep Christianity unified for 2000 years is to keep them small, with strong enemies from the outside. Maybe for some reason Rome didn't besiege Jerusalem and destroy the second temple, and the center of all Abrahamic religions remained in the shithole that is the Levant instead of spreading to Europe and Arabia just in time for them to get good.

Or maybe a timeline where Jesus died in some far less memorable way, or at least a way that didn't set Jews and Christians against each other immediately. Like, imagine if he drank himself to death, and the symbol of Christianity was an amphora. That'd be pretty sweet.

>> No.33072434
File: 24 KB, 460x345, a1ABD06_460s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072434

>>33072340
I wish Putin would just grow a mustache and start putting up statues so we don't have to pretend it is't 1930 all over again.

Conflict in the middle east, Russian belicoseness, economic crisis in the west, an emergent Germany.
If only we could also have the style with it, it'd be all worth it.

>> No.33072464

>>33072287
History masters student here, so much this. Modern historical studies aren't about the causes and and effects of events or anything like that. It's about looking at shit like "The reification of gender roles in pre-columbian society."

If you do decide to study history I will give you a topic that can be applied to any subject and will always get you an A. "How was [topic of dicussion] ruined by white people."

>> No.33072480

>>33072195
Really, it's probably more to do with few countries being willing to go to war with russia over a few small bits of land they don't control.

Little to gain, horribly much to lose.

>> No.33072485
File: 74 KB, 460x696, aKzLmgW_460s_v1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072485

>>33072413
I wonder id he'd go for re-instituting the early era NKVD or the late era KGB.

>> No.33072496

>>33070022
And if you break down his name, Mohammed has the same meaning as Judas.

>> No.33072499
File: 83 KB, 506x568, Bottom_Ukraine_Russian_Border.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072499

>> No.33072505

>>33072485
Oprichniki, fool

>> No.33072536

>>33072434
Oh fucking hell, 9gag is even taking credit for Private Eye now?

>> No.33072538

>>33072434
Have some style to go with it, then?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWTFG3J1CP8

>> No.33072544
File: 55 KB, 460x932, adNrxeZ_460s_v2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072544

>>33072464
Brb getting my degree in North Korea, pretty sure they don't pull that shit there yet.

>> No.33072550
File: 59 KB, 500x468, macabre.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072550

>>33068924
Impossible.

No two men agree on everything. What two believers can you find who share all the same knowledge about their religion, interpret each aspect the same way, and perform in the same manner as regards their religion?

Mankind is many minds which can't be reconciled into one.

>> No.33072587

>>33072505
Those weren't numerous enough for his purposes I don't think. I suspect entire terror divisions of NKVD Spetsnaz would be more his style.

>> No.33072633

>>33072538
Meh. Here, I like this one better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8v8TP4Rd-s

>yfw Russian troops advance to Kiev to this song

>> No.33072636

>>33072544
North Korea has eduction system beyond Elementary that also comes in non-military variety?

>> No.33072640

>>33072544
In all honesty Putin is about as un-Soviet a Russian you can get. He's clearly of an Imperial mindset rather than a communist one. He couldn't give a shit about "exporting the revolution".

But the last major Russian power were the Soviets, so that's what people call him

>> No.33072694

>>33072640
You mean Putin is as Russian as you can get. A miserly, tyrannic hardass. Like every successful Russian ruler ever.

It's my theory that Russians can't be happy unless they're being oppressed and miserable. Just look at the fucking literature and video games they produce. It's enough to become an alcoholic.

Oh, and while we're on the Red Army choir:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZqVOFSYRWI

>> No.33072701
File: 119 KB, 710x903, 710_1_1a_LAURIE_LIPTON_Death_the_Maiden,_43_x_34cms,_pencil.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072701

>>33072550
That's why it was called a hivemind earlier in the thread. But the idea didn't catch.

It's just as well, a human hivemind in RL would be unstoppable.

>> No.33072712

>>33072636
Concentration camp. Unfortunately it's only courses are mining and farming. And advanced dying.

>> No.33072732

>>33072694
You need to be a miserly tyrannic hardass if you're a Russian ruler, because otherwise you've got every other country in the world trying to steal your shit.

The only reason Putin manages to get things done is because he and his KGB buddies figured out (at least some people) who were on foreign payroll and decided not to give them any positions of power.

>> No.33072799

The question is what becomes of Russia once Putin leaves political scene for good.
Because, let's face it, he's eventually gonna get kidnapped by aliens, because he's the last hope to put their crumbling multigalactic empire in order.

>> No.33072820

>>33072701
If a "religion" were actually some means of connecting people spiritually so they acted as one it would come to rule them all.

>> No.33072839

>>33072799
I predict a lovely return to a Yeltsin like state of affairs.
As well as every other country in the world suddenly deciding Ossetian, Abkhazians, Georgians, Tchechens and so on need to be protected from the Russians, and by *them* and them alone.
Maybe Japan will claim Sakhalin or something.

>> No.33072862

>>33072799
So Putin is 61 right now. Assuming no assassination, if he dynastisizes (new word) a resurgent imperial Russia, he could be on the scene for 20-30 more years and be mostly hale for at least 15 of those. Assuming no medical tech that extends viable lifespan in that time. 20-30 years would be plenty of time to beget an heir and have the heir be a dynamic, charismatic young man by the time Putin dies of old age.

>> No.33072865

>>33072694
All Russians are the Underground Man?

>> No.33072887

>>33072862
Yes, look at how well that's working out for Assad.
Actually, imagine what would happen in Syria and Ukraine with a dead Putin. Shit would escalate balistically.

>> No.33072893
File: 276 KB, 939x720, deny_the_obvious.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072893

>>33072862
>Putin dies of old age

>> No.33072906

>>33072862
Or he could die in a car accident tomorrow. Funny how that works.

>> No.33072913

>>33072413
Too bad the completely shot themselves in the foot economically with Crimea. The estimated cost to integrate Crimea with the Russian economy and infrastructure is something like 48 billion dollars, considering Russians are involved they'll need about twice that to cover the bribes.

>> No.33072921

>>33069229
>Europe is significantly better off economically due to much less war,
The crusades actually spurred economic growth and the rise of cities in Europe dude. People love spices.

>> No.33072956
File: 2.79 MB, 4800x3623, Novgorod.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33072956

>>33072694
>>33072732
Hey Russophiles, you're forgetting many things.

1) Russia's best ruler in history was Peter the Great. He was superhuman in his capacity to learn and act, building ships himself, looked to Prussia and the rest of Europe to develop his own lands, and was for a meritocracy.
2) The character of Russia for most of history comes from Moscow and its' ruling family the Romanovs because Mongols chose them as their taxmen, allowing them to overtax to further their own agenda and conquer the other cities.
3) Other Russian cities, like Novgorod, had very different characters. Novgorod was very cosmopolitan and wealthy. A central hub of trade. It was sub-divided into four sections with their own civic representation on a ruling council. Had it been chosen by the mongols instead of Moscow and subsequently dominated the other Russian cities, Russia would have a very different character.
4) The most recent cultural influence on Russian people were the foreign communists who conquered them.

These short shocks and long periods of harsh oppression have eliminated the more inventive and gentle stocks while propagating the hardier, but tamer, bloodlines. Before men like Trotsky, Kun, Lenin, Lazar Kagnovich, and their comrades Moses Hess and Israel Epstein ruined Russia it was industrializing and had reached a Golden Age, producing such artworks as The Brothers Karamazov and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGqylB0GUQk

>> No.33072964

>>33072887
I don't really see an association between Assad and Putin at all. Assad is the ruler of a country that was swept up in some political tide, which was almost certainly manufactured in at least some way, with the implicit goal of destabilizing various countries in the region. And then, like most things the CIA probably had a hand in, it got out of control, what with ISIS/ISIL now. Assad isn't at all to blame for that, but he *was* stupid for being some sort of president-for-life.

I swear, most of these penny dictators would stabilize their countries in a huge way by just declaring themselves king/sultan/emir whatever and having a figurehead parliament and prime minister. presidents-for-life never do well

>> No.33073001
File: 12 KB, 345x230, 5.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33073001

>>33072413
We can only hope Europe follows suit.

>> No.33073025

>>33072956
>The Brothers Karamazov

Yeah, but are you trying to say the Brothers Karamazov isn't absolutely fucking depressing?
You'll have to look very hard to find a happy ending in Russian stories.

I remember a story from Pushkin, classic noble girl in love with commoner thing, but of course it ends with the boy as a bandit, tortured to death, the girl commits suicide and the peasants loot her father's palace.

>> No.33073033

>>33068924
People never ever having different ideas and never having any conflict period, especially about something so significant is completely unrealistic so the point is moot.

>> No.33073036

>>33072913
Isn't Russia poorer than Italy lol? And Ukraine is poorer than Greece.

>> No.33073066

>>33073036
Nah, Russia has oil, gold, all sorts of mining operations, it has it's own industry... Italy doesn't get close.

>> No.33073085

>>33070204
This is a terrible picture of Christopher Lee

mods plz delete thx

>> No.33073094

>>33073025

Depressing doesn't mean not creative or unworthy of merit. Communism fucked with the creative spirit of Russia really badly.

>> No.33073108

>>33073001
Felipe VI transitioned with fairly minor republican shit-spewing. So that's a good sign. The Dutch and the Belgian's also transitioned in the last two years with minimal republican crap and a wide outpouring of national pride.

But Britain will be the true test of whether dynamic monarchy can continue in Europe or re-emerge. You can bring up fact after fact after fact of how much the monarchy brings into Britain's coffers, and how shitty the place would be if all their land had to be given back, or even confiscated (though any republican government would be insane to try, but insanity happens), but it won't matter if when Elizabeth dies, someone forces some sort of referendum and they pad the votes.

>> No.33073124

>>33073066

>Italy doesn't get close.

Italy's GDP is 2.013 trillion.
Russia's GDP is 2.015 trillion.

And that's with 80% of usable Italian land being classified as a World Heritage site.

>> No.33073141

>>33073036
Italy's GDP skyrocketed in the last couple years because, I shit you not, they decided to start counting all the black market mafia business as part of the GDP.

I shit you not

>> No.33073149

>>33073094
I never said it wasn't good. It's good in a uniquely eastern european/Russian way. I fucking love it. Roadside picnic, Soliaris, Ogniem i mieczem, I love them. I love Gogol and Pushkin.
But they are fucking depressing. And enjoying the full spectrum of human emotions is a great thing to do.

>> No.33073156

>>33073036
The average citizens are rather poor.
The country as a whole is doing decently.

>> No.33073167
File: 42 KB, 600x503, 1538.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33073167

>>33073025
> are you trying to say the Brothers Karamazov isn't absolutely fucking depressing?

You poor, gentle, sheltered soul. The Brothers Karamazov is more romantic than realistic.

If you want a taste of harsh reality read Execution by Hunger or First They Killed my Father. Non-fiction that'll expand your conception of how bad life can get.

Karamazov was full of whimsy and hysterical fits of emotion, from Dmitri blowing most of his inheritance on parties, to a fever-delirum talk with Satan.

If you're trying to say the Russian art climate was gloomy you're wrong. Works like Of Crime and Punishment are full of burgeoning hope, a pulse towards some zeitgeist of new positive possibilities.

>> No.33073176

>>33073124
>>33073141
Yeah and if Russia did what Italy did in regards to black market business, it would be ridiculously higher.

>> No.33073189

>>33073141
So they can accurately document it... but they can't stop it?

Fucking Italians. Always the same. Ever since the Romans, a bribe will get you away with anything.

>> No.33073237
File: 419 KB, 500x689, 1403301802314.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33073237

>>33073167
I know, but underneath it all there's this pulsating feeling of hopelesness and sadness. I mean, I always feel every time I read something positive in a Russian book, it won't fucking last. And it never does. Someone always ends up dead, cheated, poor or losing someone important to them.

>> No.33073257

>>33073189
Because half the government *is* mafia.

Pope Francis excommunicated literally everyone in the mafias, I think it was last week?, do you know how many people that affects? In Italy alone?

Lots

>> No.33073261

>>33073066
Russia has an imbalanced economy. Seventy percent of its exports are oil and gas, there is rampant corruption and cronyism, and an overall lack of investment in infrastructure. Russia has something like 25 million hectares of farmland laying fallow compared to under the USSR and most of its Far East development was paid for by China due to Russia's inability to effectively allocate money and resources.

>> No.33073263

>>33072921
Don't discount how all that wealth flowing from Outremer into Italy (especially after the sack of Constantinople) played directly into the Renaissance happening, either.

Hell, in the event OP is right and the unified religion does spread and wars don't happen for any other reason just as frequently, it's not necessarily going to result in anything but a lot more able bodied peasants around wondering why God said men are to be equals before him but they should be covered in shit all day while that guy in the castle eats their pigs, drinks their wine, and fucks their daughters?

It might just turn into even MORE revolting peasant rebellions.

>> No.33073275

>>33073237

Because Russians are way more accurate when it comes to good things. But here's the part you miss in those books: Russians enjoy the good things in spite of knowing that the good thing will eventually end. That's not a depressing thing, it's an inspiring thing.

>> No.33073279

>>33073237
That seriously isn't unique to Russian literature. Every time something positive happens in any book, there's a more than fair chance it's going to fail because that's how you have drama.

Russians can do depressing well, but it isn't uniquely theirs.

>> No.33073312

>>33069780
>no crusades (the crusades are a catholic invention
religions have been crusading far before Christianity existed. Islam's entire schtick was one giant crusade (jihad) to conquer non believers. And that was far before the christian crusades

>> No.33073359

>>33073279
Too many happy endings in modern literature, I feel. It's why I like the Poles and Russians. They do that shit well.
Maybe depressing isn't the right word... It's saddening, but saddening in that way you enjoy, where you can just sit on a porch and think for a long time, that sort of sadness know what I mean?

>>33073275
Well exactly. Live in the moment and all that. I just wish we had more movies and other western media along those lines I guess. It's just a bitch to discuss Russian media with people, because most people haven't heard of Metro 2033, Soliaris or Stalingrad (Russian version). That's an example I liked a lot more than western action movies. Because the "good guys" do just fucking die at the drop of a hat, ignominously and forgotten. And that makes them far more interesting than the immortal muscle hulks, or the occasional super dramatic protagonist death.
Older people generally will have read the classics though, so that's always good.

>> No.33073480

>>33073189
Started cutting all the good olive oil with shit.

>Ever since the Romans, a bribe will get you away with anything.

Rome was founded on bribes, armed mobs, and sanctioned murder of political dissidents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proscription#Proscription_of_82_BC

The only reason Rome got anything done was that the primary means of becoming incredibly rich was leading a military campaign to rob some other bugger blind; and to do that you had to bid for the contract by saying how much loot you'd bring back for Rome (in addition to what you yourself got). If you fucked up along the way, you were personally responsible for that amount. Lead to a lot of violent conquest by a lot of competent bureaucrats, because failing once meant you were right out and those lands remained ripe for the plundering.

>> No.33073491

How unified are we talking here, OP?

>> No.33073536

>>33073359
Oh, and they make sweet fucking music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzZlOKnYlw

>> No.33073560
File: 154 KB, 2680x1780, Total-Debt.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33073560

>>33073261
At least it doesn't have more debt than the rest of the world combined.

>> No.33073597

>>33073560
>using a linear graph for an exponential function
BEGONE.

>> No.33073761

>>33073480
So which is better, Military-Industrial Complex or Crony Capitalism?

>> No.33073868

>>33073761
What's the difference?

>>33073480
Your description of Rome makes it sound really badass but irl they devalued their currency to pay for giant public works projects and instituted serfdom after their currency lost all worth.

>> No.33073893

>>33073868
Yeah, but it took 1000 years before they got to that point. If you count from the start of the republic.
2000 if you count till the fall of constantinople.

>> No.33073894

>>33073491
Here's a hint, if something like the 30 Years War happens you're not unified enough.

>> No.33073950

>>33070129
>Well, Orthodoxy has managed to remain a unifying force despite lacking an Earthly "head of church."

There is an earthly head of church in Orthodoxy though.

The Emperor, who is literally God's Steward over His Kingdom.

>> No.33074037

>>33073868
>Your description of Rome makes it sound really badass but irl they devalued their currency to pay for giant public works projects and instituted serfdom after their currency lost all worth.

Actually the Empire lost their money because the Legions went rabid and realized they could raise whoever will pay the most as Emperor.

To be honest the Third Century Crisis occurred because absolutely none of the Emperors (even the "good" ones) never made a single effort reinvigorating the Imperial Administration, keeping it much as it was under Augustus until the socio-economic climate of the Empire made such a continuation literally impossible.

>> No.33074140

>>33074037
> socio-economic climate

1) They were broke.
2) Relied on Germans to fight their wars.
3) Couldn't pay German mercenaries anymore.
4) Disrespected same mercenaries.
5) German Chieftan took Caesar's head as a trophy and sacked Rome to get the loot his people were owed.

We see the same pattern playing out today in some ways. The government wants lied to by bankers like court-jesters. Told that they can magically grow the economy without cost. So they prop up meaningless bullshit like stocks at the cost of real measures of wealth (new businesses staying in business, food prices, folks on welfare, gas prices, unemployed, delinquent debts, part-time employed, minimum wage and below, manufacturing jobs lost...)

>> No.33074648

>>33074140
>The poor politicians are being tricked by the evil bankers
facepalm

>> No.33074725

>>33074648
Cocksucker, what I wrote was
> The government wants lied to by bankers

Just like you want your mum to tell me she doesn't take my dick in her ass.

>> No.33074987

>>33074725
>The government wants lied to by bankers
this isn't a sentence, it is literally gibberish nonsense. This meant I had to "auto correct" it into a coherent sentence with actual real meaning.
So sorry I got it wrong.
The amazing thing is that you quoted yourself without noting your mistake, so you somehow think this ISN'T nonsense and an actual coherent sentence, which leads me to believe your english is shit.

>> No.33075081
File: 18 KB, 142x253, OdiousFace.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33075081

>>33074987
>I'm really fucking stupid.

Ok.

>> No.33075130

>>33074725
>The government wants lied to by bankers
did you mean to say
>The government wants to be lied to by bankers

>> No.33075288

>>33068924
What if Judaism never balkanized?
No Pharisees
No Zealots
Jesus is a Tzadik Hador
etc

>> No.33075343

>>33073597
hmm I dunno, that little tiny dip at the end would probably be even more invisible on an exponential axis.
So meh.

>> No.33077597

>>33072105
Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia.

The Greeks got upset when they called themselves Macedonia, because to the Greeks they are just dirty Slavs trying to steal the legacy of Alexander. So they cried to the UN until the UN agreed to call them FYROM as a provisional official name, instead of just recognizing them as "Macedonia".

>> No.33078063
File: 504 KB, 300x222, 1403303565527.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33078063

>>33070500

>incan empire

>> No.33078307

>>33069229
>Colonization of 'murica is slowed down.
It's more likely that America simply doesn't have a revolution. There's still plenty of economic colonies in the south, as well as the French and the Spanish.

America is also likely to be far less religious, since they won't have the Puritan founding. They won't have the cultural seeds that hold the idea that America is a continent of god's providence. No 'City upon a Hill'. Probably no Manifest Destiny.

Shit's gonna be pretty different.

>> No.33078330

>>33078307
The entire history of the region changes. Without Islam, there's nothing blocking Catholic traders from using land routes to reach Asia, for one.

>> No.33079290

>>33070500
Those are the worst Japanese place names I have ever seen.

>> No.33079328

>>33070932
More like I wish we could nuke Texas. Texas is the worst thing that ever happened to the union.

>> No.33079734

>>33070597
Where's this from?

>> No.33083527

>>33070849
>It's not like Germany, the UK and the Netherlands would go ballistic over paying for the development of EVEN MORE 3rd world countries with no returns.
Isn't the UK likely to have left by then, giving the ever-growing opposition to continued membership?

>>33070932
>use EU membership as pressure to reduce the issues further into disappearance
How would that work exactly? The EU isn't a magical wand of peace.

>>33079328
>Texas is the worst thing that ever happened to the union.
How so?

>> No.33083568

>>33083527
>the ever-growing opposition to continued membership?

While it makes a nice tabloid narrative, actual polling suggests the EU is considered as a largely unimportant issue, to which the national mood is generally favourable.

>> No.33083598

>>33083568
No, polling is majority for leaving. Which polls that wikipedia doesn't know of are you talking about?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_United_Kingdom#Support_for_withdrawal

>> No.33084869

>>33083568
>>33083598
Sounds like the answer is "ones in my imagination". /tg/ is a fantasy board.

>> No.33085052

>>33079328

More like the Union is the worst thing to happen to Texas.

If there's a part of the union that needs to be nuked it's Hollywood.

>> No.33085362

>>33070500
>Nieuw Nederland controls Texas
I'm okay with this. Dutch Texas might not be too bad

>> No.33085404

>>33083527

Unless the UK gets a sweetheart deal as far as trade is concerned they can not afford to leave.

Giving the UK a sweetheart deal is political suicide ... not saying it can't happen, but it will require a ton of graft.

>> No.33085507

>>33085404
I think you can still trade with somewhere without being part of it.

>> No.33085534

>>33085507
The entire point of the EU (at least originally) is removing all barriers to capital and labor passing between member countries. If UK leaves the EU, then trade restrictions will go back into place (things like immigration/emigration between them, transferring money, new tariffs, etc.

>> No.33085662

>>33085534
No, that was the point of the EFTA, which the UK belonged to before joining the EU.

>> No.33085780

>>33068924
As this is already a christian thread I'll ask here:

What was the name of that one black christian crusader kingdom?

>> No.33085859

>>33085662
And no longer belongs to; and if they did rejoin would only have that free trade with Switzerland, Iceland, and Norway

>> No.33085908

>>33085859
No, no, the EFTA isn't just about trade between its members. It collectively has trade deals with the EU, China, India (the EU recently cancelled having a trade deal with India) and more.

>> No.33086611

>>33085780
bump for question

>> No.33086629

>>33085780
The Carolingian Empire?

>> No.33086653

>>33086629
lol

>> No.33088021

>>33075288
I think OP was including all the Abrahamic religions.

>>33077597
It's funny how Ireland did exactly the same thing, name their country after an area part of which is another country, yes Britain calls them Ireland, not The Former British Republic Of Ireland.

>> No.33088077

>>33088021
Because that would be calling the Irish British (even if formerly), which would cause them to lose their shit.

Also we're fucking lazy and 'Ireland' is way less of a mouthful.

>> No.33090079

>>33073257
How is he fairing with the mafia excommunication business?

>> No.33090817

>>33088077
That's the whole point: Britain could have insisted on it because the name "Ireland" doesn't match the physical reality, but it didn't. Unlike Greece, which does insist on calling Macedonia "Former Yugoslav".

It even vetoes their joining the EU and NATO. Greece literally refuses to have a military alliance with another country because of its name.

>> No.33090941
File: 188 KB, 800x1117, Aachen Throne.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33090941

>>33070204
This seems nonsensical to me. I grew up in Aachen btw.
>pic related

>> No.33091184

>>33090817
To be fair, would you really want open borders with Macedonia either?

>> No.33091350

>>33091184
In the context of Greece, that's a case of pot and kettle.

Anyway, the point is Greece opposes that purely on the grounds of the country's name;. To put it another way, who would find open borders with Macedonia acceptable if only it was called something else?

>> No.33091419

>>33085780
I think you're thinking of Ethipiopia (formerly Abyssinia) but it wasn't a crusader kingdom.

>> No.33091623

>>33071631
except there are some ethno-cultural roots in the Ukraine independent of Russia, for example the Tatars.

Hell Turkey has more of a claim to the Ukraine than Russia does. If you think some war before flipping a border makes it legitimate what about all the history long before that?

>> No.33091671

>>33088021
>>33088077
>>33090817
Technically 'Ireland' is "The Republic of Ireland", as a political entity on the island, just as the US is the US -of- America, as a political entity in the Americas, so it's not an accurate comparison.

>> No.33091727

>>33091671
Technically technically "Republic of Ireland" is only the state's "official description" and it's official name is just "Ireland".

ROI just gets used as its name because it avoids the ambiguity.

Even if ROI was its name, though, that just makes the FYROM/Republic of Macedonia/Macedonia - FBROI/Republic of Ireland/Ireland analogy even more apt.

>> No.33091759

>>33091623
>If you think some war before flipping a border
War before 1800, sorry went to remove some ambiguity from the date and actually forgot the date.

At any rate, Turkey has a greater claim to the Ukraine then Russia does, so if the Ukraine's gotta be folded back into a country, it should be Turkey.

>> No.33091932

>>33090817
It's not quite the same thing. Ireland at least comprises the majority of geographical Ireland and its people were called Irish long before the modern nation existed. They could have demanded it be called 'Southern Ireland', mind, but probably weren't willing to risk the Irish government destroying its own economy in protest again.

Macedonia the nation, however, encompasses almost none of historical Macedonia and less than half of 'modern geographical Macedonia', whatever that is. There is also an ethnic group, called Macedonian, which live in the Greek Macedonian region, which is where historical Macedonia was. They're entirely seperate from the main ethnic group of the FYROM, which are also called Macedonian because fuck things being simple. Wikipedia refers to them as Macedonian slavs and Macedonian greeks. The FYROM also claims Alexander the Great and Macedonian symbols as part of their heritage, when in fact the Kingdom of Macedon was actually in modern-day Greece.

Getting angry over a name is stupid, but getting angry because (at least from your perspective) another nation is taking your nation's historical heroes, symbols and the name of one of your provinces without any actual rights to them is a little more justified.

>> No.33092086

>>33091932
So the definition of "Macedonia" is less clear than that of "Ireland", so what? That's what comes with being an island.

In fact, Ireland having an indisputable geographic definition makes naming a political entity not conterminous with that area even more outrageous: the ROM can claim "definitions have changed", but the name of an island will never exclude part of that landmass.

>They could have demanded it be called 'Southern Ireland', mind, but probably weren't willing to risk the Irish government destroying its own economy in protest again.
That just means Britain isn't willing to punish another country for its name, unlike Greece, which not only is, but is willing to sacrifice its own foreign affairs (EU and NATO) on that basis.

>> No.33092259

>>33091759
Honestly, I miss the Ottoman Empire.

>> No.33092307

>>33092086
>In fact, Ireland having an indisputable geographic definition makes naming a political entity not conterminous with that area even more outrageous
That's a nice thought, but in practice it doesn't really work that way. See: United States of America.

To be honest, I don't really give a shit what they call their nation, although it might be nice to know why it's being called Macedonia in the first place; also, the Kingdom of Macedon having practically nothing to do with Macedonia (despite them saying otherwise) is misleading as fuck.

>> No.33092360

>>33092259
You and no one else.

>> No.33092364

>>33092307
Macedonian has been the name used for that language since the 16th century. Macedonian speakers used to reach the Aegean, but Greece conducted population transfers in the 1920s that expelled them.

>> No.33092401

>>33092307
But that analogy's wrong because "America" doesn't have a definition besides the country. "The Americas", "South America" and "North America" are all distinct if related terms. Not so for "Ireland" (or "Macedonia").

>> No.33092403

>>33092360
>No Greece
>No Iraq
>No Remove Kebab
>No Kebab
>No Syria
>No Israel
>No Palestine
>No Egypt
>Arabia periodically shot to shit

What's not to like?

>> No.33092460

>>33092403
>No Greece
Without their example, countries would still be lining up to join the euro.

>No Israel
Enjoy a more primitive society thanks to no Israeli tech industry.

>> No.33092472

>>33072287
>>33072464

Man you guys must not be from Massachusetts. I love Massachusetts more and more every time I hear anybody talk about whatever shitpile they live in.

>> No.33092705

>>33092401
I was thinking more in the way that 'American' can have multiple meanings. Ireland doesn't really match up as an analogy either, since the ethnic groups of the two Irish nations are the same, and have the same history and culture, whereas the two Macedonias are different ethnically.

>> No.33092862

>>33092705
Only if you consider Irish people to be ethnically British.

"Irish" and "Macedonian" each refer to people from a place named a certain thing (of which there are multiple). "American", in contrast, can refer to people from a specific place named one thing ("America") or from a specific place named something different ("the Americas"). That's not the same.

Also, there aren't two "Irish nations": there's two nations on Ireland, but only one is Irish, the other being broader, Irish and Great British.

>> No.33093406

>>33092862
>Only if you consider Irish people to be ethnically British.
What? Why is that even relevant?
My point was that 'Irish' means 'people from Ireland' and this applies to people in both the republic and the north. There is no dispute over this. 'Macedonian' can mean two different ethnic groups living in two different places arguing over who gets to use the name, so it's not the same thing. There's no dispute over which is the 'real Ireland', and the RoI does control the majority of the island. The RoM doesn't control the majority of Macedonia.

>Also, there aren't two "Irish nations": there's two nations on Ireland, but only one is Irish, the other being broader, Irish and Great British.
I am in fact aware of the political situation of my own country. I was just using it for shorthand.

But seriously, I don't care about Macedonia.

>> No.33093649

>>33093406
>What? Why is that even relevant?
Because you said Irish people are a single ethnicity. They're not (again, unless you're saying everyone from the British Isles is ethnically the same).

>My point was that 'Irish' means 'people from Ireland' and this applies to people in both the republic and the north.
Except people from Ireland don't have to be ethnically Irish (and you did bring up ethnicity).

>the RoI does control the majority of the island. The RoM doesn't control the majority of Macedonia.
What's that got to do with anything? Being less inaccurate doesn't make an inaccuracy accurate. Most of the British Isles is the UK, but that doesn't make it accurate or logical to say the UK could correctly be called the country that is the British Isles.

>I am in fact aware of the political situation of my own country. I was just using it for shorthand.
That's like referring to Greek Macedonia as a country "for shorthand", when the whole heart of the issue (and the equivalent one for Ireland) is that it's part of a larger country.

>> No.33093727

This is a totally important argument, you guys. I am watching in rapt attention. I'm really glad nobody is trying to waste our time with political discussion with all this HOT SYNTACTICAL DEBATE raging all over the place.

>> No.33093804

>>33093727
Who cares if Britain should leave the EU or not, technicalities of nation names is where it's at.

>> No.33093968

>>33071177
If you read old enough Christian texts you occassionally come across references to Islam as things like the Mohammedan heresy. Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure that's how Bede refers to it in his Ecclesiatical History.

It was during the period when scholars had just about heard about the religion and Mohammed, but had absolutely no idea what it was really about or what he preached

>> No.33094079

>>33093804

No, no no no, technicalities of the VALIDITY of ANALOGOUS COMPARISONS between names of nations.

>> No.33094101

>>33093649
>Because you said Irish people are a single ethnicity.
They ARE. At least insofar as we define ethnic groups. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people
Although it's correct that the ethnicity of people from the British Isles is almost identical.

But I really don't care about this argument any more. I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point, but whatever it is, it's fucking pointless, so we'll just say you were right about the thing you say you're right about and leave it at that.

>> No.33094322

>>33094101
>They ARE. At least insofar as we define ethnic groups.
By the same logic (having a wikipedia page), so are the Northern Irish:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Irish

Which contradicts the claim that the people of Northern Ireland are the same as the Irish in general or the folk of the Republic of Ireland.

>so we'll just say you were right about the thing you say you're right about and leave it at that.
:/

>> No.33094512
File: 2 KB, 100x100, m673.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
33094512

>>33072379
now behave yourself or we'll go call Jehuty.

>> No.33094621

>>33077597
In fairness to Greece, historical Macedonia was basically where the Greek region of Macedonia is now and nowhere near the modern republic

>> No.33095565

>>33092307
>>33094621
The rough geographical region of FYROM has been called Macedonia since the Romans conquered it and added it to the province of Macedonia in 146 BC, and it's been a separate province since the 4th century. So there.

>> No.33097784

>>33070597
>Israel in the EU
They wish; the EU turned them down.

>> No.33099104

>>33070426
And even after that "muslims are renamed arians" was a common enough claim in the east.

>> No.33099137

>>33070452
The venetians did no such thing and Constantinople was sacked in retaliation for two things
- The crusaders were hired out by the legitimate heir to the throne and went unpaid
- The massacre of the latins

Any further claim is bullshit byzziephilia

>> No.33102015

>>33094322
There's no page about Republic of Irish people, separate from all Irish people, though.

>> No.33102152

>>33072906
...Do you know something we don't, anon?

>> No.33102195

>>33102152
Don't expect the answer, the guy is probably gone by now. You don't joke about this kind of stuff.

>> No.33102214

>>33085780
Makuria?

>> No.33102241

Well the catholic-orthodox split was mostly a matter of western europe not wanting to listen to the byzantine emperor, so you'd have to figure out a way to solve that first

>> No.33104841

>>33102214
I read that as Murika.

>> No.33107220

>>33069229
> You mean everyone is orthodox?
No.
Everyone is Catholic.
The only way that split was ever going to get resolved was the Patriarch of Constantinople bowing down.

>>33070316
>Spain would be as Christian as the Middle East,

You're nuts.
The reconquista began before the split.

>>33102241
That's...
No.

No that's bullshit.
There's matter of jurisdiction, supremacy, the waning power of the eastern emperor, the growth of the west, the conflicts between patriarchs, etc. etc. etc.

>> No.33107354

>>33092259
Not even the Turks miss the Ottoman empire man.
Not even the remnants of the imperial family miss the Ottoman empire.

>>33091759
You suck at history.
Leaving aside the fact the the Krimeans were not Ottomans, they were a vassal state, and whatever other Ukranian territories they possessed were gained during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent and lost while there still was a Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.
There's also the matter of the shared history between the Russians and the Ukranians through such things as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Which possessed most of Ukraine for most of the middle ages) and the Kievan Rus.

>> No.33107971

>>33073001
Kill yourself, authoritarian piece of shit.
Or better, move to Russia or some other country that encourages cocksucking a Führer.
You think this will make crap better? You think Putin is a fucking saviour for no other reason than "lel he hats faggs and is mannly!" ? At this point he's barely different from Hitler in 1938, and like Hitler he might very well lead his country to doom for the bullshit he does because of his penis-problems.
Tip: you will not be the winners in a dictatorial regime. You will be amongst the many losers.
Things you love will be banned, moreso than ever before.
If injustice happens to you, you will have zero chance to defend yourself, instead of the slim one you have in the States.
You will have no influence whatsoever, instead of the tiny one you have right now.
Instead of posting on 4chan, your fat ass would get dragged out of the basement, enjoy dying in some stupid conflict you never cared for.

>> No.33108141

>>33072053
>Had Muhammad not decided to go his own way, well that's just one butterfly too big to extrapolate because the steppe nomads could have possible unified Tengriism into some sort of Islam thing and been just as bad as they were anyway.

Actually Nestorian Christianity was big among the steppe peoples in between 800s and 1200s. The entire hundred-thousand strong Kerait tribe was Christian, among them Toghrul, Genghis' foster father, and Sorkhektani Beki, the mother of Kublai Khan. The Great Khan had to be a Tengriist, but Mongke Khan, when he was asked by a Christian missionary to convert his empire to Christianity, said that while he'd love his people to worship the Christian God, he's not the master of their hearts and he cannot order them to do so.

It was only through some happenstance that most of the steppe tribes later converted to Islam, rather than staying Tengriist, Buddhist or Christian.

>> No.33110862

>>33085859
>>33085908
Where are the people who support the EU and know what they're talking about.

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