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[ERROR] No.31890207 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Because the other nWoD rules complaining thread's almost at autosage, here's a new one.

Let's realtalk about nWoD's rules. Not oWoD's, just nWoD's.

What's so bad about them? Are they really as bad and outdated as people say?

If the rules are so bad, why is nWoD still pretty much the second or third most popular RPG after, right after D&D/Pathfinder and the Warhammer 40k RPGs?

Are nWoD's "Storyteller" rules really good for telling a system? Even with the GMC update?

How do nWoD's rules stack up to Savage Worlds/Cortex/*World/FATE for running a modern day fantasy game?

All this and more, if you've got questions to ask, go for them!

>> No.31890254

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/demon-the-descent/13377-demon-got-free-healing/page3

>blackhatmatt
>OK, so a bit of insight into my process as a designer:
>1) I don't get one shit about "game balance." I think that, in general, when people say "game balance" they're talking "white room combat" and I think that's so far removed from any actual play experience that it's completely useless as part of the process.

This is one of the main writers for nWoD as of Onyx Path.

I'll just leave this here.

>> No.31891287

>>31890254

Why do we trust these people to make good games again?

>> No.31891932

>>31890254
Except he's right. They don't playtest white-room situations because those never fucking come up in real games.

>> No.31892014

>>31890254
That actually makes a bit of sense though. There is no real "game balance" in CoC either. If you find yourself in a showdown with a Shoggoth, you're pretty much fucked, regardless of party size.

And even if you DO manage to win, you've attracted enough attention from various sources that you won't have won for long. Same for nWoD, just with more down to earth supernatural threats (GMC notwithstanding)

>> No.31892325

>>31892014

The meta-assumption combat is really worse then 'white room' ivory tower design.

"We don't have to make combat work right, if you are in combat you've failed, because fighting never solved anything and the climax of no story ever had a fight with an overpowering and powerful foe."

People like you end up with games that are toothless, sexless grey where the only conflict is social and there are no meaningful long term consequences of anything.

Combat balance isn't about fixing combat for white rooms, it's about making the fight mechanics work properly. If there's one option in combat that is so much better then others you create a fucked up system where there is a 'right' answer in how to fight in every situation. If every fight ever is just going to be "who can use Knock Out Blow first?" you've failed to serve the story.

>> No.31892379

>>31891932
White-room combat is important because it's the BASELINE.

You can have a fight in a warehouse full of boxes.

You can have a fight in an open street.

You can have a fight in a cramped sewer.

The only way to possibly test if combat mechanics is to begin with a white room as a baseline (or a "control" if you like the scientific method) and then start adding in features and variables.

Ignoring the white room is full retard.

>> No.31892423

WoD's rules aren't particularly engaging, but they have no glaring flaws EXCEPT for the fact that they utterly fuck up specialist characters.

>> No.31892453

>>31892014
Fun fact: The only shoggoth in a Lovecraft story only kills penguins. The two investigators that find it escape it intact.

>> No.31892460

>>31892325
>If every fight ever is just going to be "who can use Knock Out Blow first?" you've failed to serve the story.

Don't you mean "Whoever can first bring out their 4(L) rifle and one-shot most characters, because guns ignore Defense and even substantial concealment/cover gives only a -3 attack penalty"?

GMC combat rules are fucked. Melee attacks are shit tier.

>> No.31892505

>>31892325
>if you are in combat you've failed

No, that's not how I run games at all. You just need to understand that not all things must presented on an equal playing field.

A group of 4 Kindred vs 2 low level Vampire Hunters? Kindred are more likely to win. Sure, the Hunters could get lucky and pull off a victory, but then what? Will the other Kindred in the city/area just ignore that threat? Not likely. Next time it will be 8 Kindred against those Hunters. The Hunters need to prepare.

Now, on the other hand, if you have 4 Kindred vs another 4 Kindred, the fight is much more dynamic. It is up in the air. Maybe one group has a Kindred with a lot of training in Cruac, maybe the other side has 2 Gangrel. Those things may not cancel each other out, but it changes the way the battle is fought.

As for Knock Out Blow, you can just house rule that it doesn't apply to supernatural beings or beings that otherwise may be trained against it (Seasoned hunters, a grizzly bear, etc) However, on a side note, isn't that how most fights are anyway? You try to disable/incapacitate/kill/whatever the other guy first? Not defending the in game mechanic, but I'm saying that it isn't exactly unrealistic either, at least from some viewpoints.

And my games have plenty of combat, they just happen to have consequences for that combat. If my PCs kill someone, even someone who is attacking them first, they still just killed a guy. There will be consequences, even if that only amounts to proving it was self defense. A game without consequences would quickly show the PCs that they are, at least in one sense, invincible and untouchable.

>> No.31892554

>>31892325
>who can use Knock Out Blow first


Don't you mean "Whichever group's spellcaster goes first"

>> No.31892560

>>31892505
>As for Knock Out Blow, you can just house rule that it doesn't apply to supernatural beings or beings that otherwise may be trained against it (Seasoned hunters, a grizzly bear, etc)

Knockout Punch explicitly alters the rules of reality to allow a KO.

It doesn't work off actual concussions, that's for sure.

>> No.31892573

>>31891287
Do we? I expect Onyx Path to push out mediocre to ok games with an increasing amount of Xi Xy Xo Xum I Smell the Blood of Some Cis Scum to keep their rpg.net fans engaged.

>> No.31892580

>>31892560
Then just house rule it out of the game. It's not that hard to do.

>> No.31892607

>>31892580
House rules don't excuse bad mechanics.

>> No.31892615

>>31892607
True, but it does allow you to get rid of things that you don't agree with.

>> No.31892700

>>31892505

>Vampires banding together in groups to fight vampire hunters that have proven able to destroy vampires.

Have you ever.. looked at the book? Kindred don't risk themselves to get into big combat squads and hunt the hunters. The idea that you'd just face more and more BATTLE VAMPIRES until you died seems insane, given how Vampire works. A better escalation would be facing the sheriff himself and human servants.

>Isn't that how most fights work?

No. It's nearly impossible to deliberately knock someone out without causing brain damage or death. Rendering someone harmlessly unconscious takes years of training, a careful physical examination and expensive equipment to do. We call these people anesthesiologist and they are very well paid for their expertise.

>Conquences for combat.

Yes. It should drive the story forward and have weight and meaning. But >only amounts to proving it was self defense.

Self Defense is a legal justification and means that it went to a public trial. Most of my games don't have the story tilted to courtroom drama, so the consequences are rather different.

>> No.31892814

Did you not get enough of a reaction yesterday in the demon thread?

No one who plays nwod gives a shit about the system, just what they can use to entertain themselves. You can not make us give the system up. Go back to harping on dnd and stop making these useless threads.

>> No.31892822

First off: assuming popularity means good design is a pretty silly assumption. DnD has the most ridiculous imbalance between caster and martial classes and it's the poster child of RPGs.

Anyways, to state: the main reason why I'm okay with WoD's imbalances is that for a lot of splats they tend to be a couple poorly worded / thought out powers that can be easily written out of the system. There are a couple home rules that my group uses for basic combat. And we generally have the ST rule for anything complicated enough to not be off-hand knowledge, because it keeps the game moving.

So practically, it works, and works well.

In general, though, I think pretty much every system that actually tries to make any significant amount of crunch has edge cases that are broken. Systems like FATE only manage to work because they don't ever get into the nitty details of stuff and leave that to the narrative. What makes me want to use a system is how easily it can be made acceptable, not how hard it is to break.

>> No.31892830

>>31892580
I think his point is that, Knockout blow is kind of the tip of the iceberg. Personally, I love NWoD, but it does have a lot of rules that make me go wtf? I know that combat is supposed to be deadly and gritty, but to just justify design flaws as "Oh that's not how it's supposed to be played." is lazy writing. I think combat can be a very important part of the game both IC (adds drama), and OOC (It's fun!). There's no reason to shy away from it as long as it's fun and adds to the game.

>> No.31892843

>>31892615
Which doesn't excuse bad mechanics.

>> No.31892886

>>31892700
In WoD, you can fill people up with bashing without permanent injury. Also just inflicting 1L is often enough to completely disable people in GMC.

>> No.31893049

>>31892822
>for a lot of splats they tend to be a couple poorly worded / thought out powers that can be easily written out of the system
Half of the powers in Demon: the Descent are terribly worded.

>> No.31893050

>>31892830
>Real power!
I have to start playing table games. Shoo-shoo!

>> No.31893118

>>31893049
Are they? I haven't read the book yet, only heard bitching about it on /tg/, which seems to almost invariably be focused on the same 3 or 4 powers that are ridiculous.

>> No.31893133

>>31893118
People have mentioned other powers in the thread, they just haven't copy-pasted them because why would you copy and paste like 15+ powers into a thread?

>> No.31893231

>>31890207
>How do nWoD's rules stack up to

>Savage Worlds
Badly if you're running an action heavy military horror adventure, vastly better for the kind of game World of Darkness is supposed to be about.

>Cortex
Can't speak to this

>/*World/FATE
you could do either of these in the WoD setting and it could be great, but these games have fundamentally different intents and philosophies from the nwod core system that. It stands on its own, just for a different sort of game.

The thing with World of Darkness is, for all that it takes about storytelling, it's a very traditional RPG. Every decision you make is made in character. There's a big element of resource management, but the points you sling around don't give you some kind of detached narrative control but just let you add bonuses to the rolls your character really cares about. As flawed as GNS is, I think it's useful to think of WoD as a "simulationist" system. They're games about being the monster, not just telling stories about monsters, and I think there's still a place for that.

>> No.31893341

>>31893231
>They're games about being the monster, not just telling stories about monsters, and I think there's still a place for that.

But does nWoD do that well?

>> No.31893381

>>31890254
Well he's right that "white room" combat scenarios don't apply to WoD (though they're extremely relevant to D&D and its ilk) because it's explicitly a game where different characters are stronger in different situations. Like the first thing it asks a player is whether they want to be specialised in physical, mental or social actions.

It's still a disingenuous response. Balance is really fucking important in WoD because balance here means making sure every kind of character can affect the story to roughly the same degree, and ensuring that there are as few worthless character options as possible. Any designer who doesn't see it as a problem if, say, Composure is vastly more valuable than Stamina, or if Potence-vamps get walked all over by Dominators, or if Forces is harder to deploy usefully than Mind, can get fucked

>> No.31893413

>>31893381
Show me where it says that WoD is about playing characters who are equally powerful/flexible.

>> No.31893452

>>31893341
Not fantastically, but better than anything else I can think of. The rules are very closely bound to the setting, which to be honest I appreciate, and it's good fluff so I'm happy to use a slightly unwieldy ruleset. You could probably achieve the same play experience with a decent GURPS conversion but who would want to go to all the trouble of converting all the forms and gifts in werewolf when the core works *well enough*

>> No.31893464

>>31893381
I agree with you, but that's not really what white room is for, though. It's to test that the math works the way you intended for it to, without side-stuff like improv or GM rulings on various environmental stuff.

>> No.31893482

>>31893452
>all the forms and gifts in werewolf
Uh, even the Werewolf fans say that the rules for gifts and renown in Forsaken are completely fucked.

>> No.31893490

>>31893381
>Forces is harder to deploy usefully than Mind
It is? All of my Mage games have shown the opposite to be the case.

Or was that just an example?

>> No.31893534

>>31893413
Maybe it's not. I certainly doubt it's an explicit design goal in the intro to vampire or anything. But making sure every player has roughly equivalent power to influence the game is a good rule of thumb for what "balance" actually means in the context of an RPG and it certainly fucking ought to be a baseline goal of any ruleset that doesn't have like some kind of troupe play or rotating spotlight mechanic.

>> No.31893623

>>31893490
It's the case if you're playing the game by the book, where Forces spells are basically always vulgar/cost mana and Mind spells are almost always covert/cost no mana.

>> No.31893631

>>31893490
just what I heard from a more experienced player actually. though now I think about it his problem was that Forces was only good for fucking with technology and he wanted it to be viable to fly and shoot fireballs out your ass without being a Master (if you don't care about going vulgar, obviously). Mind was definitely godly in the one Mage game I played though.

>> No.31893675

>>31893623
We don't use Forces to throw fireballs around. Forces is basically the most useful information-gathering Arcanum out there.

Mind spells tend to require other people to be around in order to be of any use (which isn't always useful when you're investigating a supernatural mystery, which is 75% of most Mage games), and tends to be resisted.

With Creative Thaumaturgy, Forces is one of the two most versatile Arcana there are. If you have Forces and Matter, you can basically alter any environment any way you like, while Mind mages are stuck fucking with people.

>> No.31893701

>>31893675
>Forces is basically the most useful information-gathering Arcanum out there.

You mean Space and Time?

Hint: As of the Mysterium book, you need BOTH Forces and Matter to affect anything electronic.

>> No.31893704

>>31893413
What's the fucking point of the character creation system or xp system then?
Just let me put as many dots on my character as I feel right and let me add more dots afterwards when I want to face tougher foes, if balancing the power of the characters in the coterie is not a feature.

>> No.31893717

>>31893631
Forces isn't just useful for fucking with technology (though it's certainly useful as hell for getting around any sort of modern infrastructure). It also lets you fuck with any sort of energy, including light, heat, sound, whatever, which is absurdly useful with the slightest bit of creative thinking. Most of those spells aren't Vulgar either.

Forces is a utility Arcanum. You don't use it to fly around shooting fireballs out your ass.

>> No.31893733

>>31893675
Forces effects can be powerful.
Nobody's denying that.
The problem is that they're basically always VULGAR and COST MANA. Those are the real problems. They'll fuck you up with paradox and disbelief like nobody's business.

Mind will buff the shit out of your skills and give them rote action and other ridiculous bullshit (at just 2 dots!) and it's covert and costs no mana.

Mind doesn't need other people. You can use it to buff yourself like crazy.

>> No.31893740

>>31893701
Space does basically nothing for info-gathering, unless you're Scrying and you know exactly where to look and what to look for.

Sure, Time is useful, but again you need to know the right questions to ask, and even then it's if you want your GM to hand-feed you the answers.

>> No.31893764

>>31893733
Mind doesn't give you Rote Action, that's Fate (and 4 dots at that), at least if I'm remembering right. Mind can grant you skill dots, but that eats your Mana and requires a huge Rote pool to be of much use (unless you want one more die on whatever skill you're trying to boost).

>> No.31893784

>>31893717
>Most of those spells aren't Vulgar either.

Forces 2: Influence Electricity: Vulgar.
Forces 2: Influence Fire: Vulgar.
Forces 2: Invisible Object: Vulgar, costs Mana.
Forces 3: Complex Transmission (alter electronic signals): Vulgar.
Forces 3: Light Mastery: Vulgar.
Forces 3: Personal Invisibility: Vulgar, costs Mana.

Are you sure?

>> No.31893815

>>31893740
>Space does basically nothing for info-gathering, unless you're Scrying and you know exactly where to look and what to look for.

Scrying. New Threads.

Oh look, I've got an Intimate sympathetic link to basically anything that's at least been Described to me.

Covert, no mana. Basically no cost.

>>31893764
Willful Process, Mind 2, rote action to Mental and Social skills. Covert, no mana.

Ever heard of Diplomat's Protection, the ultimate defensive "fuck you"?

>> No.31893926

>>31893784
Influence Electricity is shit like making electricity jump out of a wall socket to kill people. Of course that's Vulgar. Meanwhile shit like Control Sound, Control Heat, Control Light, Control Traffic, Insulate, Nullify Combustion, Modulate Frequency, Modulate Speech, Control Fire, and Control Electricity are all covert and costless. Unless you're using Forces to do shit like murder people with electrical arcs or turn completely fucking invisible, you're not going Vulgar, which includes 95% of utility effects you'll get from Forces.

You can also shock people to death just by using Control Electricity and then getting THEM toward the source of the electricity, rather than making the lightning jump out and kill them.

Again, think utility. If you're being flashy with Forces while trying not to be Vulgar you're using it wrong.

>> No.31893971

>>31893815
>Ever heard of Diplomat's Protection, the ultimate defensive "fuck you"
I'll give you Diplomat's Protection, but I've never even heard of a Mage game that didn't ban that spell outright. Whoever wrote that one must have been high on something.

Willful process seems pretty stupid too, yeah, though I'd have to find and read the spell text.

Also anything cast sympathetically is Vulgar, which includes New Threads cast down a Scrying window.

>> No.31894011

>>31893926
>Control Sound, Control Heat, Control Light, Control Traffic, Control Electricity, Control Fire

These are all low key effects that are good for their dot level, but they have shit on Mind 2's buffing, or Space 3's Scrying/New Threads combo.

Why bother eavesdropping with Control Sound when you can just Scry?

Modulate Frequency and Modulate Speech take Fate. Not exactly the most standalone useful thing.

>> No.31894073

>>31893971
>Also anything cast sympathetically is Vulgar, which includes New Threads cast down a Scrying window.

You don't need to cast New Threads through a scrying window.

New Threads is a covert spell that targets the sympathetic link itself. You don't need to target a person sympathetically.

>> No.31894078

>>31893815
>Willful Process, Mind 2, rote action to Mental and Social skills. Covert, no mana.
Okay, so Mind makes you really good at doing mundane shit any normal human can do, which you then have to do mundanely the way normal humans do it, eating up time and effort. The other Arcana can just solve problems for you outright with a few seconds of thought on how to apply your spellcasting. Plus Fate and Time are better at "making you really good at doing stuff the mundane way" anyway.

Mind is good, sure, but it's hardly the end-all be-all Arcanum people on /tg/ seem to like to make it out to be.

>> No.31894102

>>31893704
>What's the fucking point of the character creation system or xp system then?
It helps you build a well rounded and interesting character.

>> No.31894135

>>31894011
>Modulate Frequency and Modulate Speech take Fate. Not exactly the most standalone useful thing.
What Mage worth his salt isn't gonna take the first dot of Fate just to eliminate 99% of all minor inconveniences from his life? In terms of day-to-day living, Fate's boss.

>> No.31894150

>>31894078
>Plus Fate and Time are better at "making you really good at doing stuff the mundane way" anyway.
So let me get this straight.

Fate 4 giving you rote action on skills, vulgar, costs mana = good
Mind 2 giving you rote action on Mental and Social skill, covert, costs no mana = bad

Are you shitting me?

>Mind is good, sure, but it's hardly the end-all be-all Arcanum people on /tg/ seem to like to make it out to be.

Do you know just how many Mind spells there are? They VASTLY OUTNUMBER every other arcanum.

http://wodindex.wikispaces.com/Spells

They're also recursively good. Start off your day in your hallow casting Augment the Mind and Gain Skill (no mana needed in a hallow), buff your rotes.

>> No.31894157

>>31893231
>Savage Worlds is better for what nWoD tries
I'm sorry, what?
Fucking no. Savage Worlds is a shitty system

>> No.31894244

>>31890254
Did you even read the thing you linked?

Did you even read LITERALLY THE PART YOU QUOTED?

"when people say "game balance" they're talking "white room combat" and I think that's so far removed from any actual play experience that it's completely useless as part of the process.

>>31894135
Forces ● allows you to be a hobo and still catch up on all your favourite HBO dramas.

>> No.31894257

>>31894157
I guess I could have worded that better. Savage Worlds is great at what it does, which is fast but tactical combat with minis, and extremely bad for a game like WoD.

>> No.31894274

>>31894244
>"when people say "game balance" they're talking "white room combat" and I think that's so far removed from any actual play experience that it's completely useless as part of the process.

It's disingenuous to say "we don't care about white room combat" because you're basically saying "we don't care about the baseline combat mechanics."

This isn't rocket science.

>> No.31894285

>>31894150
I didn't say Mind was BAD, I just said shit like Perfect Timing and Glimpsing the Future are, generally, better (especially if you do shit like cast them in a Hallow and then hanging them, which you can do if you can even cast Glimpsing the Future).

I'm fairly sure you can only have one casting of Gain Skill going at a time, and newer, higher-potency castings overwrite it, but I'll go reread the spell.

>> No.31894291

>>31894257
Didnt think that nwod even had a system for dealing with grid combat. It was pretty much freform with some clues as to where you were at.

>> No.31894304

>>31894150
>Every Mage has a Hallow
>Spell Tolerance doesn't exist
>You can cast a billion spells
>Every spell you ever cast is Roted
Man...

Plus the whole "buff adds to Rote benefits" thing is dubious at best.

>> No.31894327

>>31894285
Generally, you'll want one instance of Gain Skill and one instance of Augment the Mind up at all times.

They're just that good.

Perfect Timing and Glimpsing the Future are great, but they'll tax your mana pool pretty bad. They'll tax your mana even worse if you hang them.

Mind seldom ever taxes your mana pool.

>> No.31894334

>>31894285
>Gain Skill
>The caster gains temporary dots in a particular Skill, chosen when the spell is cast, one Skill dot per success, up to a maximum of the mage’s Mind Arcanum dots. Thus a mage with Mind 3 can gain up to three dots in a Skill using this spell.
Ooh, I can get up to three more dots in one skill, for one scene, at the cost of eating up one of my Spell Control and Spell Tolerance slots! How broken!

>> No.31894359

>>31894274
Except why should they care about things that will rarely come up?

>>31894327
>Generally, you'll want one instance of Gain Skill and one instance of Augment the Mind up at all times.
How much fucking Stamina do you have?

>>31894257
I hate Savage Worlds. Fucking around with different sized dice and going up in size is too confusing for me.

>> No.31894365

>>31894334
That's real useful for eliminating untrained penalties and just being all around flexible.

It's one thing you'll want to spend Mana on mind for.

>> No.31894401

>>31894365
Sure, it's nice, but it hardly turns you into the fucking Ubermensch or renders other Mages irrelevant.

People with other Arcana can still get a ton of shit done without HAVING to make skill rolls.

>> No.31894405

>>31894359
>Except why should they care about things that will rarely come up?

Combat is going to come up sooner or later.

You NEED to test white room combat because it's the baseline for all combat scenarios.

A fight in a warehouse, a fight in a sewer, a fight in a bar, etc. etc. are all just modifications to the white room.

Stamina 4 isn't hard to get. It's easier when you use Gnosis 3 to combine spells to save up spell tolerance.

>> No.31894500

>>31894150
>Fate 4 giving you rote action on skills, vulgar, costs mana = good
Fate 4 gives you rote action on ROLLS.

Including spellcasting rolls.

Including spellcasting rolls to cast it over again to get MORE ROTE ACTIONS.

All for the cost of 2 Mana and 2 Paradox rolls.

>> No.31894543

New question: Is there any mental merits in nWoD that make a character more resistant to mind-influencing effects? oWoD had iron will, but I haven't seen anything quite like that.

>> No.31894577

>>31894304
>Every Mage has a Hallow
Sanctum 1 and Hallow 1. So expensive.

>Spell Tolerance doesn't exist
Stamina 4, combine spells to save Spell Tolerance slots.

>You can cast a billion spells
Yep.

>Every spell you ever cast is Roted
You'll have a few rotes on hand, for the main buffs you want.

>Plus the whole "buff adds to Rote benefits" thing is dubious at best.
There's never been word otherwise.

>> No.31894647

>>31894102
Forcing you to allocate at least some dots in all areas MIGHT prevent players from creating characters that are too one dimensional (we all know how well that works in practice) At the cost of limiting design options for players who aren't boring unimaginative assholes.

But I was talking about your share of starting dots and any additional xp you might get to spend, and the fact that they're limited in the first place. Their primary function is to limit and balance the power level within the coterie. Or they would, if the system was working as intended.

>> No.31894665

>>31894405
Baseline combat in nWoD is fine, especially with GMC.
The thing in question was a power

And combining spells requires you to have one dot higher. And before GMC, Stamina 4 was fucking expensive.

>>31894500
>Implying that's how it works.

>>31894577
Not every Mage is going to have a Hallow. This might shock you, but sometimes it's not as simple as putting dots in it. This isn't the type of game where you can just put dots in stuff and it appears. Also, Stamina 4 isn't viable, combined casting isn't viable. Neither is repeatedly casting things. Have you even played Mage before?

>> No.31894675

>>31894577
>Every Mage in the world is Strength 1, Dexterity 1, Stamina 4

>> No.31894695

>>31894665
>Implying that's how it works.
It isn't? Explain why not. Higher Potency spell overwrites lower Potency spell.

>> No.31894737

>>31894665
>Baseline combat in nWoD is fine, especially with GMC.
You mean "melee is inaccurate as shit, guns are death rays even to a substantially concealed target"?

>> No.31894775

>>31894665
>before GMC, Stamina 4 was fucking expensive.
A new Attribute dot is 4 Experiences, which is 20 Beats. Every new Attribute dot under GMC rules costs as many beats as Stamina 4 did in XP under the old rules.

>> No.31894814

>>31894675
not at all. some of them were strong before they awakened.

in general though, yes, mages are going to train the stats that help them do magic. Mages want to be good at magic. It's kind of what they're all about.

>> No.31894877

>>31894814
>Minmaxing
Not everyone is a fucking Adamantine Arrow.
"Good at Magic" doesn't mean you need twenty fucking persistent spells

>>31894775
Beats come quicker than XP.

>> No.31894941

All these people who are bad at Mage makes me wish I could play Mage again.

>> No.31895015

>>31894814
And how many Mages have the spare time to dedicate to the sort of hardcore endurance training that would be needed to get to Stamina 4? Stamina 4 is "pro athlete" level Stamina.

Especially if they spend several hours a day sitting on their ass in a Hallow ritual-casting spells, every day, for like three different spells, as has also been stated?

It's not like buying a new Occult dot and justifying it because you've seen a lot of weird shit lately because you're a Mage.

I mean, MAYBE if you're a hardcore Adamantine Arrow Mage who's obsessed with physical perfection (in which case what the hell are you doing ritual casting spells on your ass every day for hours), or a Mysterium Archaeomancer who's constantly doing Indiana Jones level bullshit in Atlantean ruins (in which case you don't have a Hallow on hand most of the time, nor the time to spend hours ritual casting on a daily basis).

>> No.31895040

>>31894877
>Beats come quicker than XP.
Not in my experience, but maybe I've just been doing it wrong.

>> No.31895050

>>31894877
>Not everyone is a fucking Adamantine Arrow.

It's funny, because the Mysterium has the best rote specialties so that's the min-maxer's choice.

>> No.31895051

>>31894877
every experienced Mage has enemies and survives by being paranoid and prepared. I'd expect a minimum stam of 3 among established characters. Yes this makes mages tougher than the general population - what they do is physically taxing and if they weren't determined to stick it out they'd never have awakened.

>> No.31895100

>>31895015
How is Strength 1, Dexterity 1, Stamina 4 any more unbelievable than Strength 2, Dexterity 2, Stamina 2?

I mean, they're both the same level of overall physicality and health, right?

>> No.31895113

>>31895040
Probably have. There's the potential for something like five beats a Scene. Obviously you won't be hitting them with that kind of speed, but that's a far cry from the 5 xp a session of core.

>>31895051
Paranoia legit doesn't work. Anything you do to stop someone, they can do better. You know what beats Mage Armour?
A fucking Moist Nugget and some Fate magic.

>> No.31895116

>>31895015
do you actually make players justify every attribute purchase? merits I can see but making people come up with a big spiel about why they're allowed to use their XP to improve their existing traits reeks of GM micromanaging.

>> No.31895129

>>31895100
No. No they aren't.

This is why one of them costs a total of 20 XP to buy from the baseline, while the other costs a total of 45 XP from the baseline.

>> No.31895144

>>31895113
>A fucking Moist Nugget and some Fate magic.

You mean Mind 3 and Combat Marksmanship?

>> No.31895151

>>31895113
We've been averaging three, maybe four beats a session (with group beats). We used to get 5 XP per session under the old rules, plus Arcane XP.

>> No.31895169

>>31895116
I make players justify purchases once they hit "exceptional" at anything, yeah. That's perfectly normal in my experience and I've never seen a player complain about it.

>> No.31895204

>>31895129
>This is why one of them costs a total of 20 XP to buy from the baseline, while the other costs a total of 45 XP from the baseline.

And they both cost exactly the same with chargen dots.

>> No.31895227

>>31895100
No.

>>31895116
Generally, yes. I had a player who wanted Dexterity 4 and Firearms 4 at character creation.
The character was a librarian. If I could have, I would have slapped him.
The ST is supposed to micromanage.

>>31895129
Not anymore, thank God, but they're still not the same.

>>31895151
Either try looking for more ways to tick off Aspirations, good places to fail dramatically without fucking yourself over too bad, etcetera. Also remind your ST that roleplaying and clever solutions are worth Beats, and that every time you resolve a condition you also get a Beat, not just when you fulfill the Beat part of a Condition.

Might want to try not splitting up Group Beats. So if you've got four players, give everyone 16 Beats instead of 4.

>> No.31895246 [DELETED] 

I posted a thread with a very basic mage idea yesterday. I've subsequently written up a more complex backstory. How does this look for a Magistos Adamantine Arrow with quite a lot of Life magic?

Shuxiang did not have an easy childhood. Born in Kowloon she grew up surrounded by prostitution, drug dealers and the triads. It was however, a place where skills and talents that would otherwise go unnoticed and untrained come to the fore. She awoke in her mid teens after being stabbed in a mugging. The wound closed up as she lay there, feeling every blood vessel and muscle in new, untold definition. She felt her mind and body, her very soul expand in new ways.

Along the way, she met a few others like her. Fighters and warriors all, they inducted her into their ways. While she was never a very active member, she is a member.

In 1993, when the city was torn down, she was moved into foster care for her last few years before her adulthood. She saw life on the other side. Happy people and innocence and police. Things she never saw before. She decided that this was the sort of world that she wanted to keep safe, not the terrible place she had been born.

She enrolled in the Hong Kong police academy and quickly made her way to the front of her class. Her mastery over herself and her brutal efficiency in the hand to hand lessons showed that she had something to prove.

After spending a couple of years as a beat cop, she was quickly moved to the Organised Crime and Triad Bureau...where disaster struck. On her first major bust...she lost her temper at some human traffickers. What started as an unarmed brawl ended up with one man bleeding out from a butcher's knife he tried to use on her and another man with an arm broken in three places.

While she had been defending herself, it had been police brutality that would not look good for PR. She was hastily put into a role in an advisory role in an inter-police force deal to help US police deal with potential Triad effects in the US

>> No.31895287

>>31893815
>Ever heard of Diplomat's Protection, the ultimate defensive "fuck you"?

Diplomat's Protection breaks the Practices.

>>31894543
>New question: Is there any mental merits in nWoD that make a character more resistant to mind-influencing effects? oWoD had iron will, but I haven't seen anything quite like that.

Indomitable does that.

>> No.31895313

>>31895227
>Might want to try not splitting up Group Beats. So if you've got four players, give everyone 16 Beats instead of 4.
Please elaborate, I may bring this up with my ST.

>> No.31895332

>>31895227
>I had a player who wanted Dexterity 4 and Firearms 4 at character creation.
>The character was a librarian.
Why can't he be a librarian who was a olympic shooting athlete in his youth? Or maybe just someone whose hobbies are, say, tennis and hunting.

>> No.31895339

>>31895246
Why are you doing that in here?

There is nothing good to be found in this thread. Only people yelling at each other about how they don't understand Mage, and other people claiming that WoD is fundamentally broken on a systemic level.

>> No.31895370

tl;dr: GMC rules are AIDS
original core rules with errata is okay
houserule the shit to get best rules

>> No.31895371

I have a question. Why the hell does the Dominate discipline not use a single social attribute? It's only mental attributes and social skills.

>> No.31895376

>>31895313
Well, Group Beats suggests just tossing all the Beats in a pot whenever someone gets them, then splitting them up at the end of the session. Instead don't bother splitting them.
If you get a total of 16 beats, instead of everyone getting 4 Beats at the end of the session, give everyone the full amount that the party got.

>> No.31895377

>>31895332
A hobbyist hunter would not have 4 dots in Dexterity and Firearms. He'd probably have 2 in Firearms, if he engaged in his hobby regularly, and probably 3 Dexterity at best.

Someone who was an olympic athlete but has been a librarian for years would have their skills and attributes atrophy. It is a cruel truth of the human body (and mind, actually) that if you don't use it, you lose it.

>> No.31895397

>>31895376
That sounds like a shitton of Beats to be getting every session.

That's like triple what you'd be getting under the old system. Do things in GMC cost three times as much as they did in nWoD?

>> No.31895451

>>31895370
the GMC update at least made linear exp costs official and for that I will forgive it its faults. that core WoD heavily incentivisies min-maxing, in a game where a starting character is usually some bumfuck like you or me who fell backwards into supernatural power, is its single greatest sin.

>> No.31895514

>>31895332
1) because the reasoning was they went to the shooting range during lunch
2) being good at something as a kid doesn't transfer to being good as an adult
3) having a hobby doesn't make you world class.

>>31895370
Are you incompetent? GMC rules are amazing.

>>31895371
Because it's all about being smarter than the dumb guy you're influencing. It's mostly Intelligence because it's not ABOUT being persuasive, it's about being brilliant. It's the power of the businessmen, not the social butterflies.

>>31895397
5 Beats is 1 Experience.
Costs are no longer exponential.
A few costs are tweaked.
For instance, an Attribute dot now costs 4 Experiences. That's 20 XP, if you treat Beats as being equivalent to pre-GMC experience costs. But Beats come faster:

● Fulfill an Aspiration (you have three)
● Choosing to take a Dramatic Failure (once a scene)
● Resolving a Condition
● Some Conditions also comes with a way to get a Beat once a scene
● Good roleplaying or clever tactics
● Playing the game

And I'm forgetting one or two that I don't want to look up.
So Beats come pretty quickly. Especially since there are Merits and Powers to give yourself Conditions (Sympathetic lets you take Swooning, for instance, to give yourself a bonus)

>> No.31895534

>>31895377
>Someone who was an olympic athlete but has been a librarian for years would have their skills and attributes atrophy.
Well yeah, that's why he has Firearms 4 instead of 5.
I find it hard to believe than a professional athlete would fall from "world-class" to just "pretty good", simply because he stopped keeping himself in top shape.

>He'd probably have 2 in Firearms, if he engaged in his hobby regularly, and probably 3 Dexterity at best.
Usually, yeah. But assuming he has some talent and seriously invested himself in the hobby, it wouldn't be odd for him to reach 4 dots.
You can find many historical examples of people who were exceptionally good hunters (or duelists), world-renowned even, without it being their day job. And they did boring non-physical shit the rest of the day like writing books or stamping documents.

>> No.31895557

>>31895169
the justification is that they spend their scarce character development resources on it. it takes some manoeuvring to incorporate a new haven or contact into the narrative but literally anyone can discover hidden reserves of Resolve or innate Dexterity they'd never troubled to train before.

>> No.31895595

>>31895332
>I had a player who wanted Dexterity 4 and Firearms 4 at character creation.

What's wrong with it if he's spending precious chargen dots on it?

If they didn't want you taking high stats, WHY ARE THEY LETTING YOU TAKE THOSE DOTS?

>> No.31895598

>>31895514
Reliably fulfilling an Aspiration usually involves picking really bland Aspirations that you know are going to happen next session, or deliberately contriving the session towards fulfilling an Aspiration you already picked out regardless of where it's ended up leading in actual play, which at least so far in my experience is poison to organic/improvisational story growth. I love it when sessions go places we never intended just because things tend to end up that way, but when that happens under GMC nobody's Aspirations get fulfilled because they decided on them assuming we'd be doing something else.

I also don't like interrupting the game to decide on the specifics of a Condition somebody just picked up, or to declare that I just resolved a Condition or fulfilled its Beat condition.

We don't roll nearly enough to be able to Fail Dramatically on something every scene without it being suicidal, or some sort of ridiculous slapstick failure at a basic task.

Good roleplaying and clever tactics getting you Beats is great, but that only goes so far. So does one Beat for showing up.

>> No.31895620

>>31895534
3 is "professional", it's beyond "pretty good". "Pretty good" is 2.

>> No.31895621

>>31895514
>GMC rules amazing
>initiative penalties written by a mongoloid who knows nothing about how people actually fight
>shit ripped off from Fate
>shit that was already in Armory Reloaded to begin with if you wanted it
huehuehuehehehfuehdhue

>> No.31895636

How come whenever there's a thread about how WoD's rules are (rightly) horrible, there's always a massive defense force leaping to defend the game's honor?

It's shockingly similar to the Pathfinder defense force around here...

>> No.31895666

>>31895620

Getting less than one success on average due to training isn't "pretty good" in even the most fevered dreams.

That's "my training will literally fail me and cause me to fuck up one in three times" tier.

>> No.31895673

>>31895636
People are defensive of things they've spent money on.

>> No.31895692

>>31895514
>Because it's all about being smarter than the dumb guy you're influencing. It's mostly Intelligence because it's not ABOUT being persuasive, it's about being brilliant. It's the power of the businessmen, not the social butterflies.

This doesn't make a lick of sense.

Intelligence doesn't help you influence people anywhere as much as actual social aptitude does. Seriously.

Only fedoralords seriously think that being a "smart businessman" lets you get away with having no social aptitude.

>> No.31895722

>>31895666
I'm going based off of what the books state that a certain dot level is supposed to mean, not what happens mechanically.

Mechanically one more die is one more die, regardless of whether it comes fromn your first dot or your fifth one, despite that your first dot is supposed to be "picking up basic competence at something" and your fifth dot is "finally becoming among the best of the world at this thing".

Also 2 skill dots is at least one success on average, given that it's impossible to have less than 1 dot in the Attribute component of whatever you're rolling (and you'll probably have 2).

>> No.31895738

>>31895514

>Because it's all about being smarter than the dumb guy you're influencing. It's mostly Intelligence because it's not ABOUT being persuasive, it's about being brilliant. It's the power of the businessmen, not the social butterflies.

It's that basically a perfect description of presence on a social situation? It's raw social brilliants and force of personality, rather than persuasion.

>> No.31895740

Why do people throw a shitfit over someone having 2 dots in a skill vs. the maximum 5 dots, saying that it's the end of the world and the 5-dotter's going to blow apart everything?

It's just... 3 more dice in the pool. 1 more success on average.

Whoop dee fucking doo.

5 dots in a skill isn't going to make you THAT much better than just 2 dots. Why bother giving people shit for it?

>> No.31895749

>>31895620
0 = abysmal/untrained
1 = poor/inexperienced
2 = average/trained
3 = pretty good
4 = excellent
5 = absolutely exceptional, world-class

>> No.31895775

>>31895740
Because the books paint 5 dots as more significant than they really are.

>> No.31895788

>>31895749
The difference between "average/trained" and "absolutely exceptional, world-class" is 1 fucking success on average.

>> No.31895801

>>31895557
No.

Just because you want to spend your scarce character development resources on something doesn't mean you just get it. You don't get to go through tense negotiations and backstabbing in the criminal underworld to then just learn Kung Fu without having trained in it before.

>>31895598
Maybe you're just uncreative with your Aspirations? Try "get in a fight" as an aspiration. Use Aspirations to tell your ST what you want from the session.
>I also don't like interrupting the game to decide on the specifics of a Condition somebody just picked up, or to declare that I just resolved a Condition or fulfilled its Beat condition.
Use cards.

>>31895621
I don't mind the initiative penalties. The Fate rip off and Armoury Reloaded stuff is good. So... what's bad about it?

>>31895636
Because they're not "horrible".

>>31895692 >>31895738
Dominate isn't influence, it's hypnosis.

>>31895740
Because the ratings mean something. Having an Ability at 20 or having one at 10 is just +5 in DnD when you can get +20 from equipment, but it still means something within the narrative of the system.

>> No.31895809

>>31895722
>I'm going based off of what the books state that a certain dot level is supposed to mean, not what happens mechanically.

And there's a tremendous dissonance there, so why are you picking the one that won't actually bear out in play over the one that will?

>Also 2 skill dots is at least one success on average, given that it's impossible to have less than 1 dot in the Attribute component of whatever you're rolling (and you'll probably have 2).

Getting 1 success on average still means you're fucking up half the time.

Even 4 dice you're looking at ~24% fucking failure rate. That isn't "pretty good" anywhere. That's a C minus.

>> No.31895813

>>31895740
Because we started out talking about how every Mage starting with 4 or 5 dots in Stamina is implausible from a fluff perspective.

>> No.31895836

>>31895801
>Use cards.
Cards are hard to use over Skype chat, anon. All my cool friends moved away because of not being able to find jobs here.

>> No.31895845

>>31895636
Maybe people enjoy playing it?

Think of something you like. If I suddenly tell you that it sucks are you just going to stop enjoying it and bash it with me?

>> No.31895853

>>31895740

So, you gave your character min-maxed olympic-level stats without any backstory justification, and your group asked you to please not do that, and now you're asking us to tell you that you're right and they're dumb.

They're right.

You're an idiot.

>> No.31895865

>>31895809
74% is a B. Or an A if you're English.

Fuck your crazy murrican education system.

>> No.31895877

>>31895865

It's still so shitty at the task that I can't imagine anyone hiring you or even considering your skill impressive.

>> No.31895902

>>31895865
What?
When i was in school anything in the 70s was a C 80+ was B.

>> No.31895905

>>31895877
That's why 3 dots in a skill is "professional".

>> No.31895910

>>31895853
Today I learned that having 'olympic-level stats' gives me 1 more success on average, and that just blows up all sense of realism and immersion.

>> No.31895925

>>31895801

And why is hypnosis based off being smarter than the other guy? Wouldn't it be your raw ability to manipulate others (Which is about 50% of hypnosis) or your ability to instill your will over another (Hello presence)

>> No.31895944

>>31895905

You wanna go 6 dice then? 12% failure rate on even the most basic tasks. B+.

If you'd seriously hire someone with a B+ average to do something, you're either the most forgiving boss I've ever seen, or running a Wal-Mart.

>> No.31895963

>>31895845
>Think of something you like. If I suddenly tell you that it sucks are you just going to stop enjoying it and bash it with me?

I can admit when something I like has flaws.

Look at Exalted's fanbase. They LOVE the game, but they're the most ardent about pointing out and accepting its flaws.

WoD's fanbase is the exact opposite. They'll cover their ears and go "lalalalala, I can't hear you, the flaws you're talking

Why? Exalted and WoD are both White Wolf games. How come one fanbase can point out and accept flaws while the other goes into denial?

>> No.31895976

>>31895836
Hrm. Skype lets you change names, right? Maybe change your name to the Conditions you have? Alternately print the Conditions out and put the ones you have in front of yourself. Or use Screenshare to manage that kind of thing.

This is a problem that I'll have myself soon, since I'm doing things over chat. Then again I generally forget to keep track of XP in general

>>31895925
Hypnosis is covered with mental skills in WoD.

>>31895963
I admit nWoD has flaws. But it's not "horribly broken".

>> No.31895995

>>31895801
>Dominate isn't influence, it's hypnosis.

The actual Hypnosis and Hypnotic Voice merits use Manipulation, not Intelligence.

>> No.31896021

>>31895944
Americans can't get a decent job even if they've got an 88% average? How do they learn anything without teaching directly to the test?

Or are 90s easy to get over there?

>> No.31896022

>>31895976
>Hypnosis is covered with mental skills in WoD.
The Hypnosis and Hypnotic Voice merits use Manipulation + Persuasion.

>I admit nWoD has flaws. But it's not "horribly broken".
I don't think it's horribly broken either, but it's waaaaaaay more flawed than the WoD fanbase gives it credit for.

>> No.31896028

>>31895910

You really don't understand the math of the system very well. The relevant distinction is not "one success is needed, pretty-good guy got two, Olympic guy got three." It's "opposed roll, your opponent got two." Or "ok, we're at 4 dice of penalties... pretty-good guy is on a chance die, Olympic guy succeeds easily."

In the system, expert skill matters when you're trying to do something very difficult. On easy rolls that an amateur could make, it doesn't really matter that much that you're an expert.

Basically, the system is fine, stop trying to justify being a min-maxing asshole.

>> No.31896039

>>31895963
Not a clue man personally I get more critical about something the more I enjoy it.
Shit I been accused of hating things I in fact really enjoy just because I'm the first to point out the flaws.

>> No.31896048

>>31895813
And yet the chargen system lets you do it no problem.

>> No.31896071

>>31896021

I'm not talking a B+ academically, I'm talking a B+ at that task, which means he fucks up ONE IN TEN TIMES.

Ten burgers? One of them forgot the patty. Ten shelves stocked? One of them has the wrong items on it. Ten documents typed? One of them accidentally copypasted An Ode To A Dick into it.

Would you seriously hire that guy to do anything of even minor importance?

>> No.31896088

>>31895963
>They'll cover their ears and go "lalalalala, I can't hear you, the flaws you're talking


Sounds like you've never been in a WoD general thread.

>> No.31896089

>>31895976
>Then again I generally forget to keep track of XP in general
My group would eat me alive if I used these rules and then didn't keep track of XP. It was so much easier to sit there at the end of a session and go "Okay, you all get 6 XP" and send people off to go buy a new Merit and Skill dot or something.

>> No.31896111

>>31896071
Those are all Dramatic Failures, especially the Ode to a Dick one.

This is what I mean about GMC's "voluntary Dramatic Failure rules" resulting in slapstick.

>> No.31896114

>>31895995 >>31896022
Do they? I assumed it was Intelligence + Empathy or something. Don't know why I thought that.

Also, I don't know, a lot of what people say are flaws I don't agree with, like GMC combat. I fucking love it. Especially grappling. I played a Moros. Let me tell you I wish I had these grappling rules. Then I wouldn't have needed Aikido 3 to do anything.

>>31896048
Just because the system allows something mechanically doesn't mean the ST should let you do it.

>>31896028
This.
An average of one more success is very good.

>>31896089
No, I mean I just don't remember to give any out at all. I'll sometimes go after three or four sessions and be like "uh, buy a skill dot or a power or something.

>> No.31896125

>>31895976
>Hypnosis is covered with mental skills in WoD.

Actually, the hypnotic stuff is manipulation.

>> No.31896152

>>31896111

No, dramatic failures would be cooking a rancid burger or knocking the entire shelf over.

Regular failures are exactly what I listed: Mistakes that either cost you time or resources or both, but aren't lastingly injurious, and he's still a fuckup.

>> No.31896159

>>31896114
>No, I mean I just don't remember to give any out at all. I'll sometimes go after three or four sessions and be like "uh, buy a skill dot or a power or something.
My group would end me.

>> No.31896203

>>31896028

Opposed rolls only serve to showcase just how absurd the dice math behind the game is.

Attribute 3 (above average) + Skill 1 (according to this thread, "poor/inexperienced") = dice pool 4

Attribute 3 (above average) + Skill 5 (according to this thread, absolutely exceptional and world-class) = dice pool 8

http://anydice.com/program/3b0e

1/3rd of the time, the poor or inexperienced character will tie or emerge victorious over the absolutely exceptional and world-class character.

How does that make any sense?

>> No.31896257

>>31896114
The only lovers of GMC combat are the people who think that melee combat makes everyone miss with their attacks, and that someone should be able to bring out a hunting rifle and reliably and accurately inflict a grievous wound on someone with lightning reflexes (Wits 5/Dexterity 5/Athletics 5, all ignored) using substantial cover (just a -3 attack penalty).

>> No.31896265

>>31890207
>If the rules are so bad, why is nWoD still pretty much the second or third most popular RPG after, right after D&D/Pathfinder and the Warhammer 40k RPGs?

If your argument is that nWoD has worse rules than D&D and Pathfinder and Dark Hersey, I do not disagree with you. nWoD is not stunningly bad, just underwhelming.

>> No.31896271

>>31896159
I'm currently running Hunter in the other Window and I didn't give Beats last time. I'm probably not going to give any this time, then I'm going to just say "you get ten XP, two months happens, you're now real Hunters"

>>31896203
And you can't do the same in your beloved 4e, Adslahnit? A character with 10 in an Attribute against someone with 20

>> No.31896298

>>31896271
Doesn't Touhoufag do like FATE and no more DnD any more?

>> No.31896334

>>31896265
>>31896271
Are you guys seriously pulling out the 'It's okay if WoD's rules are below average, so are D&D and Pathfinder's!' argument?

For fuck's sake, it's not something to be proud of when your system's on par with the bottom of the barrel.

>> No.31896339

>>31896271
So your defense of wod rules sucking is that other games rules also suck?

>> No.31896348

>>31896203

Lumping "tie" and "win" together to make your number bigger, nice.

That's on one roll. Here's a simple example: grappling. Two thirds of the time, the expert gets the pin in the first couple of seconds. One third of the time, it takes him another three seconds.

Or say they're playing darts. One throw in three, the amateur throws as well as the master. The master wins the match easily.

Any time something is short and sudden enough to be settled with a single roll, it's gonna be highly situational and random.

The system is fine, you're kind of dumb.

>> No.31896353

>>31896257
Almost sounds like the way most fights in the real world happen; someone with a gun and a quick trigger finger beats the biggest, strongest gorilla of a dude wielding a HEMA Zweihander.

Thanks for selling me on GMC.

>> No.31896379

>>31896339
Tell me a rules system that does not suck to the point you wouldn't bitch about it the way you're bitching about GMC.

>> No.31896380

>>31896257
>Missing in melee
>Not spending Willpower
>Anno Domini MMXIV.

>>31896298
iunno.

>>31896334 >>31896339
I was simply pointing out that it's not unusual to have baseline traits not matter as much as they ought to.
nWoD's rules are MUCH better than DnD or Pathfinder.

>>31896353
Knives also kill pretty well.
One good hit with a knife and someone is crying for momma.

>> No.31896382

>>31896334
>>31896339
No, they're just calling out Touhoufag on being inconsistent about what makes a game good or bad.

>> No.31896404

>>31895963
Most of the criticism of WoD comes from people who play WoD.

For me, WoD is very flawed but it's also very playable. The flaws are, in general, not that deep and can be easily sidestepped / errata'd out or whatever.

>> No.31896405

>>31896353

Those were not opposed to each other.

That's 'Two people in melee will never hit each other' while 'A guy with a hunting rifle hits the guy doing nothing but hug hard cover most of the time.'

>> No.31896410

>>31896380
If you let someone get in close enough to put a knife between your ribs, you should die.

>> No.31896435

>>31896382

Except THF has also shit on 4e's skill system for being bad, so...?

>> No.31896436

>>31896380
>nWoD's rules are MUCH better than DnD or Pathfinder.

Then why does it sell worse?

>> No.31896460

>>31896436

Because quality of system is ranked about third or fourth on the scale of what actually makes people buy and play a system.

The number one is "number of other people playing it," so success tends to be runaway and failure tends to be automatic.

>> No.31896470

>>31896436
Because DnD has been synonymous with tabletop roleplaying since the 80s.

For people who don't play PnP, they're all "Dungeons & Dragons".

>> No.31896483

So what attributes are the weakest?

>> No.31896510

>>31896436
Popularity =/= Quality

>> No.31896519

>>31896436
>Then why does it sell worse?

It's more niche. Plus, fantasy is popular at the moment. Harry Potter, LOTR, The Hobbit, GoT....theses are all very popular right now.

Name something about that is popular and about vampires that isn't related to romance and/or teenage drama.

SO to answer your question -

>It's a niche thing at the moment
>It isn't that well represented in other media, lessening public exposure and interest.

>> No.31896534

>>31896483
Presence

>> No.31896539

>>31896436
>Implying sales equals quality
Why does Transformers outsell pretty much ANYTHING good?

>>31896405
Being in hard cover makes you nearly impossible to hit.
Explain to me what you think the problem is so I can tell you that you're wrong.

>>31896410
Exactly. The main problem is that Defense is now higher in GMC. But a single hit now is always going to be worse than before. And average attack is still higher than average defense between two equally skilled fighters.

ALL OUT AND WILLPOWER. Also, ganging up on people. Using weapons.

>>31896483
I generally don't put many dots in Intelligence or mental skills. I only put two dots in Int for "I'm not incompetent" and then Occult 2 and Investigation 2. Everything else I'm like "eh, I got the internet" so I don't care much.

>> No.31896549

>>31896483

Strength, Stamina, and Presence or Manipulation if you already have dots in the other.

Dexterity, Wits, Composure, and Resolve are the powerstats. Intelligence is pretty bland, not super great or super awful.

>> No.31896572

>>31896534
Yeah, I was thinking that. It's basically "Be scary/sexy" and "Make a speech" while Manipulation covers everything else.

>> No.31896581

>>31896519
Twilight was more recent than Harry Potter.

>> No.31896602

>>31896353
And if the HEMA dude is smart enough to hug hard cover, in the real world, he can at least survive for a while.

In GMC, nope, he's getting shot pretty much instantly.

>>31896539
>Being in hard cover makes you nearly impossible to hit.

Substantial cover is a -3 penalty to attacks against you and a -2 penalty to your own attacks.

If you're totally hunkered down behind cover, you're not attacking yourself.

>> No.31896611

>>31896534
Presence and Manipulation are completely interchangeable, yeah, because they're entirely based on how you approach the task.

>> No.31896616

>>31896549
>strength
Anon pls, grapple-mongers are a thing of terror and death.

although it doesn't have much practical things besides that.

>>31896539
Just don't do athletics to defense. It's a stupid as fuck change and it breaks the game for no good reason, whilst also loading Athletics (already one of the best skills) hard.

>> No.31896618

>>31896539

Hard cover is a -3 to be hit. Against a 3/3 guy (So decent but not spectacular), that's still most likely going to get hit even if you are doing nothing but bunkering down behind it.

>> No.31896631

>>31896581
But Harry Potter is more relevant. It is getting a new movie set in the universe and even has its own amusement park. Twilight has what going on at the moment? Maybe a new book that cover shit the fans already knew?

Teenage girls aren't known to be the best fans in the long run.

>> No.31896650

>>31896616

If you scrap athletics to defense and make defense apply against guns, it works pretty well.

>> No.31896663

>>31896271

I still enjoy D&D 4e. I would not place it amongst my "beloved" games, however.

Those would be Fate Core and Accelerated, Apocalypse and Dungeon World, and Legends of the Wulin. Each of those games' mechanics works very well for the types of game they set out to produce.

That aside, it would be fairer to compare the new World of Darkness not to D&D 4e, but to another modern-day fantasy game wherein magical creatures lurk hidden among humans: the Dresden Files RPG, based on the FATE rules.

In that game, an Average (+1) in a skill reflects "a novice level of training, or a high degree of talent with no formal training." A Superb (+5) in a skill represents "masterful capacity."

Let us plug these values into AnyDice along with the baseline for fudge dice, 4d3-8.

http://anydice.com/program/3b10

As we can see here, the person with a novice capability has a mere ~6% chance of tying or emerging victorious over the character with a masterful capacity. One of them can spend a fate point, but then, so can the other, and it is more likely that the master will have a relevant aspect.

That is significantly more reasonable, no?

>>31896380

I would like to point out that using Willpower to boost dice pools does not excuse the inaccuracy of melee attacks, given that the same Willpower could be spent on a Firearms attack to assure a debilitating injury.

>> No.31896689

>>31896348
>Lumping "tie" and "win" together to make your number bigger, nice.
Actually in nWoD, defender wins in the tie most of the time.

It's not like the less competent guy is going to be the one trying to initiate something against the more competent guy.

>> No.31896694

>>31896650
Frankly, I do that, just instead of Defense applying to guns I make cover apply better defensive modifiers when used.

if you're out in the open against a gun with an SMG? yeah, yer gonna fucking die. but solid walls and objects should do a lot to save your ass.

And, of course, if you're not trying to attack back, they don't even necessarily get a roll to hit you, because you're fully behind a solid object. They could try to shoot through it, but that's not always very effective.

>> No.31896714

>>31896539
>The main problem is that Defense is now higher in GMC. But a single hit now is always going to be worse than before. And average attack is still higher than average defense between two equally skilled fighters.
And guns still ignore defense, so what's your point?

>> No.31896726

>>31896663
>and Legends of the Wulin. Each of those games' mechanics works very well for the types of game they set out to produce.
Didn't you spend an entire thread ranting about everything wrong with it until several people said they used to be on the fence about it but now they're not going to go anywhere near it?

>> No.31896735

>>31896602
So you're saying if you peek out from cover you shouldn't be at risk to being shot? 'Hugging' cover means hiding behind it, full cover, which makes you basically impossible to hit except for what it is you're hiding behind. If it's particle board then yeah, a .308 should pop through it and your skull.

>> No.31896749

>>31896694

I prefer to use Defense against guns because it makes supernatural stats mean more.

That old ass vampire with Wits/Dexterity 7 should have insane reflexes even before celerity gets involved. He's within the area where 'dodge bullets' is actually pretty feasible.

>> No.31896780

>>31896534
>Not throwing your social weight around
What kind of games do you people play that Presence is bad?
>>31896549
>Strength is weak
lolwut? Sure, Dexterity covers the best combat stuff, but fuck, sometimes I couldn't even draw my gun before I got in a fight.

>>31896616
I love Athletics to Defense. Before Defense was worthless and there was no reason not to go All Out.

>Anon pls, grapple-mongers are a thing of terror and death.
Grappling used to suck. Minus Strength wasn't enough to stop people from breaking free. That's why my Moros had Aikido 3. Reflexive Dexterity + Brawl attack against ANY close range attack to initiate a grapple. Then I could Suppress Others' Life.

>>31896618 >>31896602
3 dice ain't that great. And being in cover is more for defense, so it's not like you're getting in good shots. The penalty to your own attacks is because you're still popping out and taking pot shots.
That's not quite the same as hiding behind a wall or a car.

>>31896714
>Every fight is a gunfight at range
No, Anon. No.

>> No.31896791

You know what's really dumb about GMC combat?

Defense. Motherfucking defense.

Lower of Wits or Dexterity, plus Athletics.

You can have zero combat experience, but if you've got quick reflexes and a limber body, you'll be dodging sword swings and knife stabs like it's the Matrix. Even if you're preoccupied with something else.

You've got maxed out Wits, Dexterity, Athletics, and Firearms and think it'll help you make use of concealment and cover better? Fuck no it won't. You're still the same vulnerable shithead you were with low dots in all of those.

But let's assume you're rocking a badass Defense 7 to 10. If you run up to a guy with a gun, you'll GET YOUR DEFENSE AGAINST THEM!

Holy fuck. Holy shit. Getting close to someone means it's harder for them to hit you. You're not hitting them with Brawl or Weaporny, you're just dodging point blank with Athletics. What in the flying fuck?

>> No.31896811

>>31892460

Sounds like realism.

>> No.31896812

>>31896749
You could maybe halve defense for the sake of dodging bullets, in order to keep it non-trivial.

>> No.31896817

>>31896726
Pretty sure THF put a disclaimer that he loved the game, he's just pointing out its flaws.

Don't we have a few guys up here saying that the guys who love something are the ones who're the first to point out flaws?

>> No.31896825

>>31896780
Show me something you can use Presence for but not Manipulation. Other than Seduction.

>> No.31896853

>>31896812

That would also be pretty reasonable. Something to help make the difference between a veteran supernatural and fatsoMcblindasabat when the bullets start flying.

>> No.31896871

>>31896817
Didn't stop him from putting its reputation through the ringer and apparently shrinking its playerbase.

>> No.31896893

>>31896871
I don't think anyone's going to go "Nah I'm not playing this" because someone's pointing out a few flaws.

>> No.31896897

>>31896825
>Not using Manipulation for seduction
Step up

>> No.31896921

>>31896825
I like to make Presence the "body language" stat. Like walking into a restricted area with enough confidence people assume you're allowed to be there. Pres+Stealth.

>> No.31896929

>>31896871
I blame that more on people not being able to properly process criticism.

>> No.31896931

>>31896812
You can already Dodge bullets. Double defense, roll it as a dice pool. Each success subtracts from the attacker's pool.

>>31896791
>You can have zero combat experience, but if you've got quick reflexes and a limber body, you'll be dodging sword swings and knife stabs like it's the Matrix. Even if you're preoccupied with something else.
So... being really good at moving shouldn't make it easier for you to... move out of the way of attacks?

Also, how the FUCK do you get 7 to 10 Defense?

>>31896825
Intimidation. Inspiration. Expression.

>> No.31896963

>>31896931

Hmm...7 is pretty easy. That's 3 in the stats + 4 in the skill. That's 'I played college ball' level.

10 is harder, that's all 5s. Like a professional footballer maybe.

>> No.31896975

>>31894737

Sounds...realistic. And in order for them to be deathrays, you have to invest alot into them. Which sounds about right.

>> No.31896977

>>31896893
I was in that thread, several people went "Wow, I was going to look into Legends of the Wulin, but now I'll give it a pass".

>> No.31896981

>>31896921
Except that's explicitly what Empathy is for.

>> No.31896995

>>31896931
>You can already Dodge bullets. Double defense, roll it as a dice pool. Each success subtracts from the attacker's pool.

Dodge is an extension of Defense, Defense isn't for firearms.

>> No.31897003

>>31896931
Manipulation+Intimidation is mentioned in the corebook.

Are you even trying anon?

>> No.31897005

>>31896981
No it isn't. Empathy is the READING body-language skill. Presence and Empathy aren't even the same category of thing.

>> No.31897010

>>31896663
FATE is nice. But it's also a very different dice system from WoD. Fudge dice are by their nature significantly more predictable than exploding hit dice.

One of the aspects of WoD dice system is that it is rather unpredictable. You have a non-negligible chance of failure at any number of dice. This is, really, an inherent part of the system.

With this in mind, you probably want to exclusively roll for things that it would be rather plausible for a character to fail. Which is to say, actions that are out of the ordinary or not stuff they're trained for. If failure is not an interesting / realistic narrative option, don't roll the dice.

>> No.31897013

>>31896611
Trouble is, what if the Storyteller interprets your action with the stat you are poor with, or knowingly makes you roll with your weaker stat? To be a social dude you have to keep Pres and Man up high.

>> No.31897027

>>31896931
>You can already Dodge bullets. Double defense, roll it as a dice pool. Each success subtracts from the attacker's pool.

Defence is non-applicable against bullets. I'm pretty sure double defense is also non-applicable.

>> No.31897036

>>31897013
>what if the Storyteller interprets your action with the stat you are poor with, or knowingly makes you roll with your weaker stat
So basically what if the GM decides to fuck with you?

>> No.31897037

>>31896871
Pretending a game has no flaws is dysfunctional. Talking about problems is how you avoid running afoul of them instead of only creating a houserule after bitter experience. Going beyond an individual level, a field without criticism is a field without progress.

>> No.31897056

>>31895595

It's cooperative story telling, and it has to be approved by the ST. If you can't come up with a believable explanation for why your librarian has the agility of an olympic athlete and the firearms skill of a well-nigh godtier sniper, no you can't fucking play it.

>> No.31897084

>>31897037
The problem is Touhoufag is bad at criticizing without ranting, especially when he makes the thread.

He's also really bad at expressing what he LIKES about a game and why you should give it a shot. Which for a really niche game that he wants people to like, is important.

>> No.31897126

>>31897036
Yes.

>> No.31897133

>>31897056
"My character is an ex-operative who stays in good form, like from one of those action movies."

>> No.31897135

>>31897056
>It's cooperative story telling, and it has to be approved by the ST. If you can't come up with a believable explanation for why your librarian has the agility of an olympic athlete and the firearms skill of a well-nigh godtier sniper, no you can't fucking play it.

What consists of a believable reason for being a natural prodigy? Audie Murphy was a sharecropper's son who picked cotton for a living. His experience with a gun was hunting small animals to supplement his diet. Yet when his marksmanship was put to the test in the Second World War, it turned out he was one of the greatest riflemen ever to live.

>> No.31897139

>>31896963
Yeah, but 4 in Athletics isn't something most people have. 7 is upper range. Plus, 3 base Defense requires having 3 in both Dex and Wits.

That said, I will say I might houserule it to the lesser of [Dex or Wits] + the lesser of [Athletics or Brawl], just so that it's always a little smaller than the attack pool. I like the larger Defense, but I wish it wasn't SO large. Core the higher Defenses were maybe 4 for some supernatural characters, but now things like Quorum have 7 or so.

>>31896995 >>31897027
Except that it explicitly works on Firearms when you Dodge.

>>31897003
>Implying I read the corebook.
Half the skill combinations are silly.

>> No.31897182

>>31897135
A librarian could keep his gun skills up to snuff just by going on yearly hunting trips.

>> No.31897199

>>31897139
>Implying I read the corebook.
Half the skill combinations are silly.

Post the silliest. I want to laugh because laughing is nice

>> No.31897204

>>31897056
Actually, this was Adslahnit. The character was literally a normal librarian who "goes to the shooting range on lunch breaks"

>>31897182
>yearly hunting trips
>Expert level

>> No.31897223

>>31897139

>Except that it explicitly works on Firearms when you Dodge.

Does it?

>If your character is in over his head, he can forsake his action to Dodge. When Dodging, double your character’s Defense pool but do not subtract it from attack rolls. Instead, the defender’s player rolls the character’s Defense as a dice pool and subtracts any successes from the attacker’s successes. This is an exception to the normal rules for contested actions.

>If the defender rolls at least as many successes as the attacker, the attack misses. Subtract successes for defense before adding the weapon bonus.

>As Dodging is a roll like any other, the player can spend Willpower to enhance it (getting +3 dice as normal). Merits and supernatural powers may allow additional dice pool effects such as allowing the Defense roll to be 8-again, or even a rote action.

>Reduce Defense by one for each attack as normal when Dodging, before doubling the pool. If this reduces his Defense to 0, the defender is reduced to a chance die. On a dramatic failure, the character is left off-balance and out of position; reduce his Defense by 1 for his next turn.

>> No.31897229

>>31897204
Actually going to the gun range on lunch breaks daily would be more range time than most cops get.

>> No.31897234

>>31897139
>Except that it explicitly works on Firearms when you Dodge.
[citation needed]

>> No.31897267

>>31897204
>The character was literally a normal librarian who "goes to the shooting range on lunch breaks"
Sounds like a modern day Audie Murphy.

>> No.31897295

>>31897056
>>31897135
What about Simo Häyhä, the greatest sniper ever to live? He was a farmer and a hunter, who was a member of a volunteer militia and competed in sports shooting competitions. Would you say that's a sufficient justification for "godlike" shooting skills?

>> No.31897309

>>31897295
Yes. All of those things involve shooting stuff.

>> No.31897334

>>31897229
4 dots is spec ops level. And gun range isn't shooting moving targets.

>>31897223 >>31897234
I actually can't find it, but I swear there's something about dodging gunfire and how it represents jumping for cover. You can only do it if you can move your speed and get behind cover.

>> No.31897380

>>31897295
>a hunter, who was a member of a volunteer militia and competed in sports shooting competitions


No, that's actually pretty good justification. Those things had to take up a good portion of his time.

>> No.31897401

>>31897309
So our librarian just needs to add time in the national guard and regular hunting trips to his daily lunch time range visits?
This pretty much describes my cousin.

>> No.31897417

>>31897229
I would say. If he's getting firearms practice every day, that's a hell of a lot.

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3738401-Police-firearms-training-How-often-should-you-be-shooting/

>In reality, most police departments only train about two times a year, averaging less than 15 hours annually.
>Back when I was the Rangemaster at my agency in upstate New York, we managed to get twice-a-year range training with our revolvers. When we transitioned to semiautomatics shortly before my retirement, we doubled that to four times a year — albeit with fewer rounds.
>Most of the time, our range was open and staffed 24/7 with instructors, so quite a few officers came out almost monthly to get in some training time.

>> No.31897423

>>31897334
>And gun range isn't shooting moving targets.
What kinda shitty gun ranges do yo go to?

>> No.31897425

>>31897133

No, he really can't, because librarians have MBAs. Also, average workload for librarians is 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.

This isn't an action movie, this is a horror movie.

>> No.31897437

>>31897309
>>31897380
Okay, thanks.

>> No.31897461

>>31897425

Can I be a blonde virgin girl with a boyfriend so I can die last?

>> No.31897462

>>31897425
Hell, "lunch breaks" aren't a thing librarians get

>> No.31897483

>>31897295

He wasn't a full-time librarian, which requires 8 years of college, which I expect to see on your character sheet too.

>> No.31897501

>>31897229
4 firearms really isn't that unreasonable if its the main thing you do. I typically let characters have 4 in their specialist skill. I tend to sort of abstract away from the whole '4 dots means you're super amazing snowflake' because it's kind of silly mechanically to make such claims.

>> No.31897511

>>31897423

The military doesn't even have moving targets, christ what kind of shooting range do YOU go to?

>> No.31897538

>>31897461

No cross-play.

>> No.31897541

>>31897501
Honestly ratings like professional and expert should be based off dice pools not just skill ratings.

>> No.31897552

>>31897511

Sounds like one of those carnival games where you shoot wooden ducks. Sounds fun, how come normal firing ranges don't do that?

>> No.31897571

>>31896348
>Or say they're playing darts. One throw in three, the amateur throws as well as the master. The master wins the match easily.

http://anydice.com/program/3b11

On 16% of the throws, the amateur beats the world champion.

>> No.31897579

>>31895692
>fedoralord

SRS please stop posting gibberish

>> No.31897614

>>31896071
You don't roll dice for doing stupid shit like making burgers, typing documents, or stocking shelves. You only roll dice when the character is in a stressful situation where they might fail. Driving across town doesn't require a roll, evading the cops in a high speed chase does.

>> No.31897618

>>31897511
The idea that the military gets the best of everything is silly they get what works and that's it.

>> No.31897668

>>31896348
>Two thirds of the time, the expert gets the pin in the first couple of seconds. One third of the time, it takes him another three seconds.

What percent of the time does the amateur out-grapple the master?

>Or say they're playing darts. One throw in three, the amateur throws as well as the master.

This is a good example of why abstracting everything to the same kind of dice roll sounds good at first, but falls apart when you start applying it to more than one type of situation.

Baking a cake is not throwing darts is not wrestling. Systems that pretend they are end up treating them all in an unsatisfactory fashion.

>> No.31897697

>>31897668
http://anydice.com/program/3b11

On 16% of the throws, the amateur beats the world champion.

>> No.31897767

>>31897668
Not really, NWOD simply has a highly unpredictable dice system where any roll has a significant chance of failing.

My group generally resolves this by only rolling in situations where the character would have a significant chance of failure, and generally higher skill dots makes situational modifiers less crippling.

Also a houserule where in a contested roll situation, the person with the advantage can apply a penalty of their skill-dots to the enemies roll. It makes things a tad nicer, but it's not exactly hugely necessary or globally applied even in our games.

>> No.31898205

>>31897425
>This isn't an action movie, this is a horror movie.

Which is totally why there's ridiculous shit like hyper kung fu fighters from mortal merits alone, right?

>> No.31898336

>>31898205

Yes.

>> No.31898606

Why are threads about nWoD's rules so heated?

>> No.31898680

>>31898606
It's not just nwod its anytime anything gets criticized.
Grogs can not stand their source of grogness getting criticized.

>> No.31898697

>>31898606
>>31898680
Is that the same with Pathfinder?

>> No.31898790

I actually like nWoD Changeling, but I'll gladly slap it on Fate rather than deal with Storyteller.

>> No.31899186

>>31898790
Could Fate do other nWoD games?

>> No.31899241

>>31899186

I don't see why not, though it might take some tweaking to preserve any horror elements. Then again, I'm the guy who likes to play Changeling as a drama piece about paranoids.

>> No.31899306

>>31899241
Do nWoD's rules even maintain a horror atmosphere?

>> No.31899345

>>31899306
For humans, maybe.

Maybe.

Lethal combat isn't inherently horror because at least it gives you hope that you and a buddy can bring out your rifle and blast that evil monster's heart out in one or two shots. And you probably will.

>> No.31900810

>>31899345

I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Yes, it is lethal to monsters. But you run into an awful lot of them as a hunter, so, your odds of survival are slim.

>> No.31902972

I've been playing Changeling: The Lost for over three months, five hours a week. I've gotten around 80 hours of fun from a "broken" system.

Seriously, all of the autism in this thread is stupid.

World of Darkness has fucking flaws. Call the fucking cops.

>> No.31902992

>>31902972
You're obviously having fake fun.

>> No.31903024

>>31899345
If your GM plays by the rules in the Vamp/Werewolf/Promethean books, maybe. Hunter should be rigged against you in the vein of Call of Cthulhu.

>> No.31903035

>>31902972
>I've been playing Changeling: The Lost for over three months, five hours a week. I've gotten around 80 hours of fun from a "broken" system.

Nobody's saying that you can't have fun with a broken system.

Nobody in this thread's ever said you can't have fun with WoD.

It's just like how nobody's saying you can't have fun with 3.5 or Pathfinder. Everyone does.

It's just that it's EASIER for the whole group to have fun with a more well written system. Just like how someone can have more fun with his friends in movie night with a functioning TV instead of something with a somewhat cracked and fuzzy screen.

This isn't rocket science.

>> No.31903131

>>31903035

Oddly enough everyone I know loves world of darkness and the more balanced the system has the more people piss and moan.

>> No.31903163

>>31903035
it's more like a TV with slightly off-balance colours that a few autists insist is utterly broken and beyond redemption.

the only real alternative would probably be, I dunno, fate rules? maybe dresden files? it's generally a lot of heavy-lifting for a product that's going to be pretty substantially different from what WoD is. and people play the game for the setting, typically.

>> No.31903682

>>31903163
Dresden Files/FATE rules would be the equivalent of a TV that reaches out and gives you pleasant blowjobs for roleplaying your characters well and gives you blowjobs to encourage you to RP your characters well.

>> No.31906529

Will we ever have a new edition of nWoD?

>> No.31907324

>>31902972
I don't see anything wrong with discussing the poor points of the system. If you know what's wrong and why you can work around that flaw and have a smoother time.

>> No.31907362

>>31903163
Seriously, just calling those who disagree with you "Autists" is fucking low.
Especially when they have points to make which you don't bother addressing.

You're a dick, fuck off.

>> No.31907381

>>31897334
It's part of a fighting style anon.

>> No.31907454

>>31903682

Narrrg!! My thisthem is better!!!

>>31907324
>>31907362

It's autism because there are a zillion RPGs and RPG systems and having a discussion on how "broken" something as successful as White Wolf's games are is pure autism.

Whining that people dont balance for boring 4e DND combat is autism.

You are autism,

>> No.31907467

Okay, I'm not OP but I'd really love if those of you who DO think that there are issues with the system, could you post some short summaries of the things you can think of that are wrong with it? I've been trying to follow the discussion so far but there's a ton of "no you" and it's all very disorganized.

>> No.31907519

>>31907454

>autism

When did this insult come about? I didn't have an active internet connection and was homeless from late 2012 to the end of 2013, and I don't remember it being used so frequently back in 2012.

Anyway, your argument is terrible dude. "It's fun, so what's the point of pointing out potential flaws?!" I guess you're totally against DnD 3.5/PF being ridiculed and its flaws pointed out as well, right? Because those systems can be fun too.

>> No.31907526

>>31907454
>I have never actually played 4e.

>Success means that something HAS to be good. Nothing bad has ever been successful

>Game balance, understanding the basics mechanics of combat, and testing such things is not important.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and just calling people autists is not an argument. People here know more about your favourite system than you do, and no matter how pissed off you are that they find flaws with your favourite thing in the universe they'll continue to have these problems.
Having this level of emotional attachment to a game system and needing to berate everyone who disagrees with you is a great deal more symptomatic of autism anon, if we HAVE to go there (Which we shouldn't, because that's dumb)

>> No.31907569

>>31907526
Seconded.

>> No.31907622

>>31907526
I think he's just baiting. Maybe you should stop responding.

Skills. Mental skills. They seem to have a lot of overlap like examing a dead body could be Investigation, Medical or Science. How do we separate them more?

>> No.31907650

>>31907622
It's medical.
Not that I don't follow you on the overlap issue, but your example is balls.

>> No.31907653

>>31907467

Generally:

The lack of within-book balance. Some options are vastly better than others for a similar task.

The lack of intersplat balance and interaction. Mixing splats is just going to end in chaos. Part of this is a lack of effective keywords that allow for extrapolation of how various splat abilities interact with each other (Mind mage armour for instance can be beaten by the Iron Mind spell...but what does that mean for other splats anti-mind control charms? Doesn't say)

The combat system being a mess. Melee finds it nearly impossible to hit a target with even the slightest training while guns resemble death rays more than firearms.

There is likely more, I'm just deciphering complaints here.

>> No.31907655

>>31895801
What's bad about it?
The initiative penalties were written by someone who's never been in a fight in their fucking lives, let alone a gunfight (shooting someone with a .45 is slower than stabbing them? lolwut), the changes to defence means unless you burn willpower constantly you're going to end up whiffing a shitload more in close quarters, and having all melee combat be lethal by default just feels really, really goddamn stupid.

I'd sooner be smacked around with a bat and maybe get a few fractures than get stabbed and maybe get hit in a vital organ.
Before anyone whines "well that could kill you too, what about if you got a cracked skull or broken rib!!" stop fucking drooling on yourself and remember nWoD damage rolls up. That's exactly what happens when you take enough bashing for it to start turning into lethal: you nearly black out from the pain and if you aren't careful you will goddamn die.

And this brings me to my earlier point: it's been done before and better elsewhere, why the fuck are they trying to reinvent the wheel (and cocking it up so hilariously badly)?

>> No.31907658

>>31907622
Do they need to be?

Some things have multiple solutions, and I think it's okay to represent that with skills.
Both a biologist and a doctor can perform an autopsy after all, even if their training is different, but both of them know things the other one probably does not.

>> No.31907663

>>31907650
Yeah sorry. Could you recommend a better example?

>> No.31907741

>>31907663
Well idunno, it just comes up a lot in actual gameplay and gives players a lot of sour faces. It's hard to remember something specific though.

What about doing research on biomechanics or something? Science or Medical?

Something else that bothers me personally; when do you actually ROLL Politics. What action during regular gameplay could cause that to actually happen, and would it be important?

>> No.31907885

>>31907741
>Research

Academics.
Taking the sucker apart is medical, finding out what the bits do is science, finding the answer in a book is academics.

Politics though is a bit of a problem I agree. It has come up exactly once in my game.

>> No.31908021

>>31907885
In what situation did it come up?
It's one of those eternal niggles for me and I'll bite at any chance for satisfaction.

>> No.31908050

>>31907741
I only use Politics as a reminder on what Vampire laws are and which faction hates which.

>> No.31908061

>>31896977
It's the internet. People don't magically have to tell the truth. Odds are those were people trying to stir up shit. We get those all the time. We have a bunch of them in this thread.

>> No.31908081

>>31908050
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, even if this sounds that way;
...So if it's come up once in the story, any savvy player will have no need for it (because he won't need to be reminded and his character knows because it's been established) but a less-than-savvy player may need it?

>> No.31908146

I'm curious if somebody with good Int, Wits and Encyclopaedic Knowledge can get away with shitty Mental skills.

>> No.31908172

>>31897425
I actually worked in a library for a while right out of high school. Regular 9 to 5 job. I still had time to go to the gym and hang out with friends. Granted, I wasn't the head honcho there or anything, but nobody else seemed to be working themselves into an early grave. Hell, most of my coworkers were old people who mostly sat around drinking coffee and telling stories. I think you might be overestimating the rigors of being a librarian.

>> No.31908547

>>31908021
Dealing with bureaucracy, a character wanted to get something done and needed to cut through red tape.

Everything the skill does can be better done through other skills.
It's terrible.

>> No.31910641

>>31897126

Kill him in his sleep.

>> No.31910654

>>31897084

No game has a "right" to be played, and THF has no obligation to act as an unpaid shill for gaming companies.

Also I picked up Legends BECAUSE of his posts, some of us appreciate his insight.

>> No.31910718

>>31897417

How much Firearms does this justify? Hell, I go more often than that and I'm a 1-dot.

>> No.31910795

>>31906529

GMC

>> No.31910812

>>31907467

Dice pool is hugely swingy, chance plays far too great a role in almost everything.

>> No.31910881

>>31908081

Politics DOES have uses, they're just stuff that don't generally come up in games. On the other hand, if you dump a bunch of points into it, you'll find yourself arranging situations to use it in. Its like they say about nails and hammers.

>> No.31910896

>>31908146

Mental skills are pretty useless in general. Get one dot to assuage the unskilled penalty, spend your dots on merits and useful skills.

I recommend Craft: Explosive Device.

>> No.31910996

>>31890207

>rant on
Has somebody pointed out yet that 'balance' in rp games is useless if you're really trying to go after fun storytelling? Since when is anything 'balanced' in a good story? If you want fairness in play, go try warhammer table top (not rpg). They test the heck out of that.

If you want roleplaying, put on the big boy pants and accept you'll be the underdog sometimes, possibly frequently. Make it interesting, for you and for the others playing with you.

>rant off.

>> No.31911029

>>31910996
>rant on
>rant off

Just wanted to comment on how faggy you look.

>> No.31911067

>>31911029

Just want to comment on how many cocks you have up your ass

>>31910996

Sperg on, sweet prince.

>> No.31911335

>>31910996
>Has somebody pointed out yet that 'balance' in rp games is useless if you're really trying to go after fun storytelling?

No, nobody was prepared to look quite that stupid up till now.

Guess what: you get a better game, and hence more engaging story, when everyone at the table has roughly equal power to impact the course of events, otherwise it's just a dialogue between the GM and the best munchkin.

This doesn't mean every character has to shine in every situation, WoD is explicitly a game that asks you to specialise in a particular theatre of play, but if the rules and the GM are doing their job then every kind of character should be able to get things done or steal the spotlight from time to time, or your game is shit.

>> No.31911415

>>31910718
attempting to peg skill dots to background that closely is a losing proposal, the game doesn't emulate reality that well and ultimately all that matters is how many dice you're throwing at a task. the world-class athlete doesn't just have athletics 5, he has stamina 5 and a bunch of merits and specialties and at that point he's spent most of his build points on being fit so it should probably be a big part of his concept. it's perfectly fine for characters to take a bunch of 4's and 5's in hobbyist skills at creation, all it means is the character has some kind of training and the player wants to succeed at those things if they come up.

>> No.31911451

>>31911335

But he's right, balance only matters if you pit your PC's against one another. Having one guy who could wipe the floor with the others in a fight is fine, so long as both those others have a niche of thier own.

Which is why "white room" scenarios tell you nothing interesting. Say you have three characters, a knife-fighter, a sniper, and a demon summoner. How does putting them in a white room fight help you decide anything useful about "balance"?

>> No.31911653

>>31907467
my basic problem with the core nWoD system is that it's too intricate for what it does, especially once you throw a supernatural template into the mix. Dice pools get too big and unwieldy (it's easy to throw 15d10 on an important roll in your char's area of expertise), skills and attributes vary widely in their scope and usefulness, just generally it's too fiddly for a generic baseline engine.

If I was to make a new edition I'd cut attributes down to 3 (physical, mental and social - you can always take merits to represent a strong-but-clumsy character) or maybe add power, finesse and resistance as separate attributes and make every task use one from each of those columns as the base dicepool. I'd stop ranking skills from 0-5 and just treat them as binary switches that say whether you can do something or you can't, maybe let people buy rote action on a particular specialty for a big xp cost. should forestall any weird situations where Int 5 Science 1 is functionally the same as Int 1 Science 5.

I'd ignore most of the GMC updates, but keep the change to XP costs. Fuck beats and conditions though, they fundamentally misunderstand the kind of game Storytelling is good for.

>> No.31911742

>>31907526

hey

sperg

if you dont like, it, you are welcome to stop playing it

or do your gurps autism

whatever

just stop being a grognard

>> No.31911778

>>31911451
well the white room combat will tell you if your combat rules work as intended. if the knife fighter effortlessly closes with the gunman across a featureless space then there may be a problem.

pvp balance isn't what people mean when they talk about balance in RPGs though. the important thing is that if the game presents all these build options as sensible or attractive, they'd better be about equally useful in the kind of action the game is supposed to be about.

WoD, when it IS balanced, uses "spotlight" balance where every PC gets their own moments to shine. The knife fighter and sniper can work on a team because they're each good at killing people under different conditions. The demon summoner sounds like he has powers far more versatile than just killing people so he's likely to take over the game - an unbalanced character, just as a mage would be in a mortals game.

>> No.31911809

>>31911742
now you're just spewing buzzwords like a startled squid spewing ink. people are allowed to criticise the games you like - rebut their points or shut up.

>> No.31912192

>>31910881
I do this all the time with other things but there is literally no situation that I can imagine where I'd explicitly be allowed to roll politics and another another better skill.

>> No.31912194

>>31911809

and yet they could be doing so much more on a sunday morning

>> No.31912321

>>31895636
So the nWoD fans are the noble, cultured British troops, and the haters are the retarded negroid horde that deserves to be put in their place and educated to allow them to function in society?

Sounds about right.

>> No.31914468

>>31895636
hmm sounds an awful like you are stating opinions that people apparently disagree with. So they too are stating their opinions. Have you ever talked with people before?

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