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[ERROR] No.29661396 [DELETED]  [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Chinacast general

One of these is not plastic.

>> No.29661435


>> No.29661441

The new face of mercy

>> No.29661470

can someone please tell me how is yoymart

>> No.29661491

Fake down to the base.

>> No.29661500

Amazing, got a titan, and some minis for a friend's birthday, everything was perfectly cast. also the titan was delivered in less than a week, but our customs took their sweet fucking time processing.

>> No.29661612

So's yer mum.

>> No.29661625

please someone give a tutorial of how to order from china-bay, i don't know what the fuck is going on. Also I really want that forge world rip tide

>> No.29661637

>One of these is not plastic.
Is it lead?

>> No.29661668

Judging by the text in the OP I'd wager it's finecast

>> No.29661703

>go to http://www.yoymart.com/en/games-toys/warhammer/
>free shipping, prices are in USD
>put shit in shopping cart, check out, pay with Paypal
>fukken done

It's only a little bit pricier than Taobao and you don't need to do anything unfamiliar, just your regular online store

>> No.29661723

It is resin. It is not GW resin.

It is not lead. But I wouldn't bet against some lead content in the resin.

>> No.29661761


But the R'Varna sucks now.

>> No.29661782

So does yer mum.

>> No.29661806

Well, then it actually is the face of mercy, innit?

GW base to the left. I have 20+ of these fuckers and they all look the same. Chinacast base to the right.

>> No.29661808


Well the R'Varna sucks harder

>> No.29661845

Well you beat me with that one, GG, too bad you won't beat me with a RVARNA!

>> No.29661860


The right one is resin

>> No.29661877

I was expecting a straight up cast here too, but with the different text that looks to be a counterfeit injection mold.

>> No.29661878


What happened to it?

>> No.29661888

It's still a great unit, but it should cost about the same as a vanilla Riptide now.

>> No.29661901

>they fixed it

>> No.29661904

Yeah they have all the bases. The 40mm round is a bit smaller than GW's but the Oval is a perfect match.

>> No.29661976

>But I wouldn't bet against some lead content in the resin.

Surely with the power of 4chan some anon here could test the lead content of the resin?

>> No.29661990

Looking into getting some Deathshroud termies. Hows the resin for bulky infantry models?

>> No.29661996

But counterfeiting is wrong.

>> No.29661997


>Gun is now AP4 rather than AP3
>Shield now 5+ default instead of 4+
>Can't FNP the sunburn
>If you nova doubletap, can't shoot next turn


I would take either a price drop or going back to AP3, the former more than the latter. The rest I can deal with.

>> No.29662084

LOL first 5 points is pretty much finecast. Haha GW you should really change...like asap...

>> No.29662098

So, how is the quality of yoymart stuff? I'm thinking of filling out my necron army using it, but I haven't seen any in person.

Do they come with the standard building instructions? I'm fairly terrible at the building aspect.

>> No.29662115

>yfw only the 8th and final bullets alpply
>and nobody gives a shit about the last one

>> No.29662157

>There may well be holes or areas obscured by bubbling

>> No.29662172

I haven't gotten any instructions, based chinaman however does include instructions. But if you ever get stuck post and we will help you

>> No.29662195


>nobody wants to have fake miniatures
except a good number of people willing to break the law to avoid GW's jew prices

The Mark of the Counterfeit:

>There may well be holes, or areas obscured by bubbling
>The models are often multiple copies of the same miniature
>extreme pliability
>usually a deep bluey-grey instead of silver
yfw you realize certain GW products(you know the ones I speak of) don't measure up to GW's standards of what a legit miniature is supposed to look like

>> No.29662229

Yeah at around 200ish points it would be more than decent. It still does 6 S8 hits on vehicles. I can't wait to get some War Walkers under that pie plate.

>> No.29662355

where are you from?

>> No.29662409

A magical place

>> No.29662412

Western Europe.

>> No.29662496

Keep telling yourself that

>> No.29662527

I got a Trygon and the quality it pretty shitty. Wouldn't recommend them.

>> No.29662556


> if you sport a counterfeit, please do all our footwork for us and potentially incriminate yourself

sure thing sport

>> No.29662644

Oh stop bullshitting! I got a Trygon and a Hierophant and the quality is top notch.

>> No.29662668

m-me too
well now i know i won't get it too much later
oh well, my mail is shit so maybe i'll get it in one month

>> No.29662672

Spain is the among the most western europe as it gets pendejo.

>> No.29662713

>Order bunch of models from based chinaman
>tell friend who tells me how shitty the quality will be and how everyone will tell the difference
>he has since used the sternguard that I got free with my order and gave to him at warhammer world tourneys as there is virtually no way to tell the difference once they are painted

To be honest I do feel a little guilty. I probably won't do it again but the quality of the miniatures really isn't bad.

>> No.29662743


Also the most southern and one of the poorest

>> No.29662744

got any pics?

>> No.29662776

hence why I go china...

>> No.29662879

>> No.29662945

sorry wrong pic, I'll upload some, I already painted it and assembled it, I made at least 4 pix of the bits before cleaning the mold lines and priming.

>> No.29662993

anyone have any experience with this store?
how does the quality compare to other recasters?

>> No.29663015


Don't worry, the economy is picking up. These are still the death throes of pre-european society. We're all forced to get our shit together.

Did you know that they found over a MILLION unregistered houses in italy? All of them were evading taxes and the government was wondering why italy had so much debt.

I fucking love tax-free trading within the union!

>> No.29663143

>Did you know that they found over a MILLION unregistered houses in italy? All of them were evading taxes and the government was wondering why italy had so much debt.
Can you link an article on this?

>> No.29663178

Why does China seem to have it's shit together more for finecasts models in general?

Seems a lot of smaller companies (particularly Kickstarter efforts) are outsourcing detailed model casting to them, which plays havoc with my preconceptions of stuff produced there being cheap crap.

>> No.29663211


I can't find the exact one but http://www.pie-mag.com/articles/1280/italy-finds-561-000-properties-unregistered-untaxed/ is the one that lead to a full-scale investigation.

>> No.29663250

oh wait

it's houses

I read it as "horses"

now it's not nearly as funny to me.

still pretty funny

>> No.29663258

>of stuff produced there being cheap crap
It is the case for the majority of the production, but some industries in China are totally on par (if not superior) in quality to western standards.

>> No.29663262

I wanted to purchase some stuff on yoymart, I have to decide between black templars, tyranids or some imperial guard tanks.
other than asking how are black templars and tyranids (over all, which units are a good to go), are normal models (non FW ones) good as a recast or just shitty and horrible to watch? also, when I buy something like a box of recasted marines, do I get all the bits or just the essential ones?

>> No.29663271


I don't even

>> No.29663291

>mfw when I know a guy who both cast various minis, including Sisters for ~3$ and order from our own Chinaman for the whole city
i luvr u easter Europe

>> No.29663296

For some reason the idea of horses being the cause of massive and crippling debt of an entire nation struck me as funny

>> No.29663307

Any place that sells a Reaver titan apocalypse missile launcher for cheap?

>> No.29663339

did you know that we know people don't pay taxes since the beginning of the democratic republic yet we are shocked when on the night broadcast they tell us there are bad people who don't pay taxes?
this country sucks ass not only for the government but for the attitude of the people and their belief that being """"smart"""" and overwhelming people who don't try to cheat/alterate the system is good

>> No.29663364


Reminds me of fluffy ponies

Some crazy fuck tries to genetically engineer MLP biotoys but it fails and they turn out to be dumb as fuck, can eat almost anything and they breed like rabbits. Within half a decade they spread everywhere, demolishing crops all over the planet.

Scary stuff.

>> No.29663376

>which plays havoc with my preconceptions of stuff produced there being cheap crap.
Why would you think that? Stuff from china is cheap because lax labour laws and an economy built around exporting cheap goods, not because they are technologically inferior or poor craftsmen. I mean most high end electronics at least contain components that were made in china.

>> No.29663380

I am not too familiar with the prices of WH figures, but if 20$ is "inexpensive" price for 6 plastic models, then I've made right choice of not picking up the hobby in the first place.
>inb4 poor faggot
Yes, I am a student living on a loan and I need every penny to live.

>> No.29663407

Italianon here too, Spainanon don't feel bad we're in bigger shit than you are, we just don't know it yet, same goes with Greekanons :S

>> No.29663411


I'll know in a month and a half when more Thallax appear. Considering how many people still ask about Yoymart I might do a full review.

>> No.29663431


Oooh yes, this hobby is NOT for you. With GW you'd pay 4 times as much for the models you see there.

>> No.29663451

I understand but if you paid full gw prices the "inexpensive" would be on average 50% higher than these prices...

Loyalist: http://www.yoymart.com/en/games-toys/warhammer/warhammer-40k-model/warhammer-40k-reaver-titan-apocalypse-missile-launcher.html

or Chaos? : http://www.yoymart.com/en/games-toys/warhammer/warhammer-40k-model/warhammer-40k-chaos-reaver-titan-apocalypse-missile-launcher.html

>> No.29663487


It's sad because it's such a great country to live in, but there's so much corruption and political drama that overshadows everything.

>> No.29663501

First thing that strikes me is the Avenger costing 42. I got mine from Zanchui for 24.

>> No.29663551

How hard was it to order from Zanchui? And do you have any pix of an unassembled Avenger?

>> No.29663553

pricing is all sorts of fucked up for some reason

they'll list the SAME PRODUCT multiple times for wildly different prices

>> No.29663578

where do you live anyway?
here in the north we live pretty well, the problem is mostly in the south (yeah it's repetitive, yeah we always say it's south's fault, but it's actually true)
the problem of politicians is that with the current system your vote doesn't actually matter a lot because they choose by themselves who to bring to the government (you only vote a list) and then they do what the fuck they want

>> No.29663584

To be fair, ZC charges a fair amount on postage. If you're ordering only 1/2 items I thing yog would probably be better.

>> No.29663626

Guarda che non e colpa solo del sud! Abbiamo cazzi anche nel nord. :S

>> No.29663859

si ma mai quanto i problemi di terra dei fuochi o della sicilia (in generale di tutte le regioni a statuto speciale se ci pensi bene, ma la sicilia è ancora più ""speciale"")

>> No.29663896


Hold the fucking phone here.

12 BUCKS FOR A BATTLEWAGON? They charge more for a goddamn Big Mek with Kustom Force Field!

Seriously, that can't be right.

>> No.29663913

Vieni a Venezia ;) oppure Torino...

but yeah enough italianising and being all political. In short if you're poor and really want minis go to the Chinese. If you can afford the insane prices go to FW

>> No.29664095

So what kind of issues are common with ordering from chinamen? Like has anyone had their paypal hijacked from using these guys?

>> No.29664113

sono di Torino
Venezia mi fa cagare, scusa

or you can just wait for gw's failure and hope for a cut in prices

>> No.29664150

someone has had experience with recasted hierophants? Is this real?

>> No.29664201

ma non ci cacciano se continuiamo a parlare in spaghettinese?

anyway, does someone know if i need to pay an extra for the delivery from yoymart?
not the normal shipping, but the fact that it's a pack from china
because it is a pack from china, right?

>> No.29664227


>insane prices go to FW

Hey, down here in Australia, Forgeworld is our bloody discount store.

But this talk of Chinese options has gotten me thinking. What other options are there, because this Yoymart seems a bit dodgy. There's far too much price variability.

>> No.29664263

>nobody wants to have fake miniature
If the miniature is there, I can physically see it, paint it, model it, then how is it "fake?"

>> No.29664356


I detect mexican, Spaniards use other words like jilipollas and shit like that, pendejo is more common in Latin america, specially mexicans, they said that almost all the time.

>> No.29664373

>can't shoot next turn

Not quite, RAW says next turn as in, next players turn, not game turn. So it would prevent you from using Interceptor fire, but not shooting in turn 3 if you double-tapped in turn 2.

Also fuck that I just ordered one from FW and the china one looks that decent. At least I got free shipping, r-right?

>> No.29664397

ma non nominare troppo gli spaghetti che /tg/ spesso li associa a brutte esperienze

>> No.29664446

anyway, how are new tyranids?

>> No.29664498

Super easy, just a email really. It just tends to take a lot of time. No pics, but it was great, only some slight warping on the wing bits. The cockpit canopies seemed to be cast in clear resin so not as good (slightly warped, not as clear) as the typical clear GW plastic which I assume the original kit has.
The main ones iirc are coolcast (He has a new, proper site now; http://www.thebitskingdom.com) and zanchui on taobao (contact them through the email on their taobao page, youll get .exels with their stock and prices). There's also some russians around and some miranda irene or something.

>> No.29664542

Yep I have 2 hierophants one from FW and one from yoymart...and the one from yoymart is better resin... Like it's much much tougher.

As for extra yoymart has free shipping but you will have to pay customs taxes, which is usually 15 to 25%

Actually I tried yoymart, based chinaman and zhanchuo and yoymart and based are best in my book.

And yeah we saw how GW treated you Aussies :S bloody unfair!

New Tyranids are terribad...rules are awful but the models are nice, I bought an exocrine/haruspex kit and it's so easy to magnetise

>> No.29664575

I have an original Avenger, the canopy is completely opaque :S you can barely make out the pilot... and the right wing was so droppy it needed viagra...

>> No.29664608


If you have to seriously ask this question you're retarded.

>> No.29664649


So why are the prices so variable on Yoymart? I mean, I love the idea of 12 dollar battlewagons and 33 dollar Nob Bikers, but when it variously lists Meganobs for $8 and $25 respectively, it's hard to feel much confidence.

>> No.29664667

One nob is their resin, and the other is made from metal, they actually have metal figures. Like venomthropes. Look at the material description :)

>> No.29664672

the variable ranges of the prices is because different sellers can post on the site. while these people are criminals in that they are recasting another companies IP they're not about to start stealing your money, they're merchants after all. China as a country just doesn't give a fuck about copyright laws, it's a matter of standards. Don't worry anon, your as safe as you're gonna be buying online.

>> No.29664693

resin: http://www.yoymart.com/en/games-toys/warhammer/warhammer-40k-model/warhammer-40k-tyranids-venomthrope.html

metal: http://www.yoymart.com/en/games-toys/warhammer/warhammer-40k-model/tyranid-venomthrope.html

>> No.29664764


Hmm. The big standout for me is the battlewagon; given the size of the kit, and how much they're charging for far smaller sprues, I just can't see how charging 12 bucks for one works out. I suspect that what they're actually selling is the Battlewagon Upgrade Sprue, especially as the picture is just of the deffrolla.

I mean, I need a couple of upgrade kits anyway, so it wouldn't be a total waste, but still.

>> No.29664796

if buying from yoymart, should i just start with a very little order (like one or two pieces, around 20 dollarinos) and see how they work, or will i get extra taxes-shipment?
specifically, is it better to make big orders?

>> No.29664814

if you can keep it under the customs rader go for several smaller ones, just my 2 cents

>> No.29664850

short answer: fucked
long anser: life will find a way
the codex is bad but it's internal balance is better than its predecessor
IB and psy powers makes everything more difficult but at the same time more tactical and entertaining from my pov at least
it kind of gets right the feel of a swarm army: everything is vulnerable, everything comes in great numbers, targets are everywhere so unless the enemy is able to choose wisely where to concentrate fire and/or cqc you can outplay him
almost everything is shit and that makes the codex balanced on some parts
must take units are basically 4 imho
the rest can vary

funny codex to play in NOT highly competitive environments
it can says something about competitive lists too I think but I'm not good with that and the time will tell

>> No.29664865

I hear recasters sometimes cast full models rather than individual parts, so that battlewagon might be cheaper because it is a full block of resin. Try googletranslate on the description i guess.

>> No.29664881

>Primarchs for 200 yuan

Holy shit. Someone buy Lorgar and/or Angron and post results, thanks.

>> No.29664896

>Like has anyone had their paypal hijacked from using these guys?
Has this ever happened? It's pretty much the safest method of payment on the web isn't it?

>> No.29664941

You're retarded.

>> No.29664975

>Like it's much much tougher.
isn't that a problem with a model so heavy and slender? Or you didn't have any problems
either way thanks, I was planning to buy one but wasn't sure about it

>> No.29665023

i had 0 problems! The legs carry the entire weight of the beastie no problems, the only thing I suggest is either no base or a very light foamboard base! Do not use plastic or wood...;_;

>> No.29665119

Most northern Africa indeed.

>> No.29665123


I don't think they cast the whole part, just that they don't cast halves. So what should be two halves glued together to make a hollow component turns into a solid hunk of resin.

>> No.29665126

http://www.aliexpress.com/ is pretty good.

>> No.29665142

How long does it typically take to get stuff from yoymart?

>> No.29665145


Well, I never!

>> No.29665147

I was thinking of a flyers like support under the chest so the leg don't get too much stress

>> No.29665164

I want to buy some Necron wraiths, but I have a feeling they're just probably the same model duplicated two more times. I want 3 unique models.

>> No.29665177


I don't think I would buy any of them except Ferrus, because everyone else has thin capes and weapons, but that sounds like a really good source of those awesome 60mm diorama bases with removable 40mm base.

The legit and recast bases go for like $30 on eBay, if they're even being sold.

>> No.29665198

Just pin the legs wherever they're separate pieces, you'll be fine.

>> No.29665206

but if you say that the legs without base stand up well I'll try that first

>> No.29665208

Are Tyranid rules Bad, or just not stupidly broken shit that ignores half the rulebook?

>> No.29665233

without the broken part

>> No.29665250

I doubt the capes would be any thinner than FW stuff.

I have a FW Mk IV Command Squad, and the banner is translucent in places.

>> No.29665272

Is there anywhere that sell the Leman Russ Demolisher variant?

>> No.29665562

Yoymart is actually pretty expensive, guess it's much more convenient though.

Being a britbong I don't want to get shit on with 20% customs tax either.

>> No.29665726

All of us EUfags get that 20% :S

>> No.29665778

So, how often are these actually kits and not just a recast of the whole model?

>> No.29665814


I have yet to see full body recasts. There are times where you can tell 2 or 3 pieces were cast as one piece, but generally its still assemble and paint and whatnot.

>> No.29665825

so far not even once.

>> No.29665852

How are new black templars?
Wanted to buy some space marines from our daily china merchants

>> No.29665866

alright because I'm very tempted once I get some dosh saved, as well as supplies together to pick up some IG stuff, that said I'm laughing my ass off at some of the translations.

>> No.29666017


Better but still suck.

>> No.29666037

Worst SM variant, general con consensus is plaint them as BT chose ANY other chapter tactics.

Esp their Emperor champion, 2 wounds, no eternal warrior and he has NO synergy with the BT chapter tactics, as he has superior versions of them all.
Also his swords "secondary" mode costs him an attack, killing blow, puts him at I1, all for a measly +2 str.

>> No.29666136

Well it's definitely not competitive, and it has a very linear play style. Personally I rank it around the Chaos Marine codex, but with less variation available

Do you want to put your army on the table, advance in a straight line like space invaders, and have the enemy shoot at whatever he thinks is the best target? Seeing as that's the only method you have of getting troops onto objectives, that's what happens. Lack of spores/transports/usable infiltrators/fast scoring units is a hole that is hard to fill.

That said, you can bring ALOT of bodies to the table, and if the enemy actually get close you can punish them for it. Devourers hurt, no matter what is carrying them (I favour termagant squads going 50/50 Devourers and Spike Rifles). Don't fall into the trap of thinking it's an assaulting army. It's a swarm army with lots of close range fire-power, that happens to be able to assault if the enemy gets close enough.

Synapse is SO important. I'm finding roughly half the army needs to have it, at least. The most recent game I played I tabled my opponent in, but lost 3/5 synapse creatures. And of those two, one had only one wound left. Flying Tyrants are deceptively fragile, don't rush them forward into gunlines and expect them to live. Keep them on the flanks harassing and defending against aircraft, and only move them in if they need to cover a hole in the synaptic-web. Tyranid Primes on the other hand are remarkably hard to shift. Mostly because they're are as tough as the unit you attach them to: 30 gaunts or two Carnefexes are obvious choices.

All in all, I see Tyranids kind of like the Imperial Guard. If the guard weren't allowed to take Heavy Weapons Teams, Transports, or Artillery, and all Infantry kill themselves if the Commissar dies. But everyone gets a free bayonet, so it evens out, right? No, it's not a good codex. Playable in casual circles if you don't mind the repetitive play style, but not good by any measure.

>> No.29666158

>advance in a straight line like space invaders

Our Carnifexes are taking casualties!

Quickly, reverse direction and move sideways!

>> No.29666220

So how will it fair vs. current ed. Orks?


>> No.29666235

>one of these is not plastic
>they both have the nubs from clipping off the sprue

>> No.29666260


I'm willing to bet new Tyranids is better than Orks once someone finds the right build.

>> No.29666373

>I'm willing to bet new Tyranids is better than Orks once someone finds a way to break it.

And this is what's wrong with Warhammer now.
Finding poorly worded rules to abuse seems to be the focus of the game.
And I just lost it

>> No.29666453


Build what you like. Play the game to have fun. Play the mission to win.

>> No.29666475

>implying anyone plays an ork army that's not just all shootas, lootas, nob bikers, or mega nobs in wagon with ghaz or big mek KFF

Bad armies try to break their book because they have to.
Good armies do it because they can.

>> No.29666550

so has anyone had a bad experience with chinacast?

>> No.29666564

I play fluffy Blood axes, that means loads of Stormboyz and Kommandos tying up my Fast Attack and Elite slots.
Grot artillery take the heavy slot along with a looted bassilisk.
Right about the shoota boys though.
To bad there's no proper Bloodaxe warboss, just the two named sergeants.

>> No.29666570

Even though I know the oddness of asking an ethical question on 4chan of all places, how do you guys rationalise buying counterfeit goods?

By buying from Yaomart you support a business that is profiting unfairly from GW's work.

GW charging stupid prices and making things difficult for the fanbase does not justify supporting counterfeiters.

>> No.29666640

hang on hang on hangon.

That termie looks too constipated to fight.

>> No.29666675


I honestly just don't feel anything about it.

I'm not buying from GW anyway, this would be the only way I'd ever consider getting mini's and I still think it's a little steep for what is ultimately, little plastic men.

Little, unsuccessful companies don't get counterfeited anyway, so the bastards can go cry into their big piles of money for all I care.
The only ethical qualm I have is that I'm giving more money to the Chinese economy and not supporting my local businesses.

>> No.29666705


>GW charging stupid prices and making things difficult for the fanbase does not justify supporting counterfeiters.

Who are you to declare that? Other people have different ethical values.

Fuck GW I say, they deserve it.

>> No.29666724


I buy FW and don't buy counterfeits, but I've been in dozens and dozens of recaster threads, and basically the reoccuring themes are:

- I'm sticking it to the man! Screw GW!

What these guys don't realize is that even just by playing the game using models that look like GW's models, they are helping out GW's business by giving them presence and advertisement.

- I can't afford real FW stuff but I want them.

Entitlement? Maybe. But miniature prices are fairly arbitrary to begin with and who is anyone to say what someone should or should not deserve to own.

- I want to show off how awesome I am on /tg/.

These people are usually tripfaggots. For whatever reason, /tg/ will insult you if you buy GW/FW and praise you if you buy recasts. So it's a self-perpetuating circlejerk of pro-bootlegging.

- I'm a newfag and this sounds like an amazing deal! What is chinaman/CCON/ZC/taobao/yoymart and where can I find out how to order from them because I don't know what an archive or lurking is!

Usually these people aren't aware of the dangers of recast resin. Mainly just the brittleness of small and thin parts. It doesn't help that rabid recastfags deny these accusations constantly. I've handled recasts and it's true. FW resin will have some yield and you can bend it pretty far until it snaps. Finecast even further (as it's very soft and pliable). Recast stuff just straight up snaps, so try not to drop them on hard surfaces or let them snag on your foam. Large chunky things like tanks and Riptides are fine.

- Miniatures are miniatures. They look pretty much the same.

Why wouldn't someone with this attitude save a bunch of money?

I don't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure a vast majority of people pirate books and tv shows and movies and video games. Yeah we all support stuff sometimes and buy stuff occasionally, but MANY people pirate. It's a normal thing these days.

>> No.29666726

Sure it does, supply and demand.

GW can't live up to the demand for affordable miniatures so the people's hero steps forth and like Robin Hood lets the people breathe easier while teaching the vile prince that greed will loose you more money than it'll earn you.

Hopefully he'll learn from it before he starves to death.

>> No.29666760


>> No.29666805

>they are helping out GW's business by giving them presence and advertisement.

do you play warhammer in the middle of a public park?

>> No.29666825


Projecting much?

This comes from someone who also buys FW but hasn't bought a single recast yet.

I say good on people, GW do not deserve brand loyalty. They don't even want it, just little timmy to buy Battle for Dark Macragge's Vengeance and some paints. I'm not going to judge people for buying what is essentially the same product at massive discount.

>> No.29666836


When you take your recasts and play 40k at your FLGS you are one less person playing a non-GW game and then when people go in and see everyone playing 40k they have less reason to play Warmahorde or Infinity or Malifaux or Dropzone Commander or X-Wing or whatever.

They go to /tg/ and ask for advice and people say "don't play GW play something else" but their FLGS is filled with people playing 40k using recasts.

I'm not even surprised that I have to explain this basic logic to people on /tg/ anymore. Not even mad. Just kind of tired.

>> No.29666853

Im considering yoymart for an order: The Great Unclean One, a Plague Hulk, the Nurgle Prince + Herald, a Demon Engine and several Death Guard sets.

Through Forgeworld my order would be around $700. through yoymart it comes to less than half of that.

My concerns are of course quality, and tourneys detecting them. There is a pretty big and active WH and 40k community here in Phoenix. The local GW store is one of three local shops that has games running daily, and tournaments monthly. yoymart models would not be allowed in the GW tourneys. Are theygood enough to use at a GW?

>> No.29666860

If GW did ANYTHING to make their players respect them (like encouraging FLGSs, balancing rules, generally respecting the game), I might have an iota of sympathy to a loss of profit. But they don't.

I'm praying that when they go under they get picked up by Hasbro, and rolled into WoTC. For all their flaws, they spend a vast quantity of time play-testing each MtG set. Oh yeah, and they can pass over the fluff department to Fantasy Flight.

>> No.29666864


Try reading the whole post.

>stating reoccuring observations

You can check the archives for yourself if you don't believe it. Or do you need a link because you need to lurk a lot more.

>> No.29666880


well sorry if people dont recast expensive warmahorde stuff

>> No.29666891

>I hate GW so I'm going to pirate!

Why don't you just play something not-GW you faggots? Jesus Christ your fedoras are shoved on your heads so hard you can't even see anything.

>> No.29666909


That's irrelevant to your original query.

>I'm wrong, here let me post like I'm right
>After it's pointed out, I just make some other snide comment

/tg/ pls.

>> No.29666932


>but their FLGS is filled with people playing 40k using recasts.

We both know this is an exaggeration. Chinese recasting is not causing games like Malifaux horrific loss.

40k is the dominant wargame for so many other reasons, everything from the massive fluff, art and consistent (if not always brilliant) miniatures to the store presence.

>> No.29666935

Does anyone sell the Eldar bonesinger model?

>> No.29666938


hating GW=/=hating Warhammer

thats like saying you hate EA but you still want to play Battlefield or you hate the US Government but you like living in America

>> No.29666943

>Projecting much?

>I need to buy some chinaman fakes, how does one do this action?

Yeah "- I'm a newfag and this sounds like an amazing deal! What is chinaman/CCON/ZC/taobao/yoymart and where can I find out how to order from them because I don't know what an archive or lurking is!"

Totally projecting.

>> No.29666945

I don't realky buy them but I would rationalise that I don't like modern Game Workshop and their high prices.

>> No.29666964

I do see the appeal to counterfeits, but I can't say I support running them exclusively. Games Workshop does charge too much for their products, but they do provide a service and they do deserve a profit.
As such, I have about 2250 pts in official goods, plus two codices and the main rulebook, and I'm about to order my first counterfeits ever. I'm probably going to stay pretty 50/50 on money spent official/unofficial from now on.

>> No.29666969


And buying bootlegs for 40k does nothing to lower 40k dominance. That's the entire point. If you're buying recasts to stick it to the man, you're not doing anything to GW. You can hurt them more by simply playing a different game.

>> No.29667050



Oh this is rich. People beat the system and you get butt-flustered because you won't be the only one with shiny toys at the store.

>> No.29667101

I'll phrase it this way, I'm fine with 40K I enjoy the aesthetic, I like the grimderp and casually I enjoy the models and hobby. Financially its a kick in the balls however.

>> No.29667113


What's more amusing is how so many of you get upset and assume a neutral, unbiased descriptor is some kind of personal attack.

>> No.29667134

If people like the game and miniatures they'll play, I just think most of GW pseudo-competition have dull models cast in shitty whitemetal/resstic with next to no pose-ability or conversion potential, might as well be snapfit.

Warmachines' Rhulic looks passable but.. monopose whitemetal shit is shit.
Some of the conversion focused mecha systems are also interesting, but no game.

>> No.29667150


That's fine, nobody said anything was wrong with wanting to save some money, so I don't see why you're all getting so riled up and defensive.

If you'd just read instead of getting upset, you'd notice that any criticisms are directed to parties who attach some kind of illogical resentment towards GW to their recast purchases.

>I can't afford to waste money on GW prices


>I don't like GW so I'm going to throw money at China! HAHAHA!

I'm trying to tell you guys why this is dumb.

>> No.29667175


I didn't disagree that there are cases that fit your ramblings, but at the same time unless either of us is a mind-reader, we cannot know what everyone's reasons for buying recasts are.

You seem intensely keen to show that "everyone" buying them has in some way been mislead or stupid, it kinda reeks of envy that people are now picking up FW units at cheap prices.


They're a drop in the ocean.

Anyway, I don't care about market dominance when I'm playing wargames. I don't see anyone with a wargame as comprehensive as 40k though, and I say this as a

>> No.29667188


But clearly not everyone has this opinion, as not a single person in here has admitted to or confessed a reason as to why they're staying with a GW system.

They just lash out with derisive laughter, accusations or projection, and insults when they're called out on why they're not making sense.

>> No.29667220


That's why I stated those are only reoccurring themes I see in every recast thread, and I've been in a lot of them.

And they were in response to someone who asked about it.

But feel free to point out where I said these are concrete and 100% encompassing.

>> No.29667233

You use this word, yet I do not think you know what it actually means.

>> No.29667245

Plastics, posability and conversions.

Also I like much of the aesthetics, though not the Fisher Price shit SM are moving towards.
ShortWider; the ShortWidening.

>> No.29667251


>this guy

>> No.29667257

>it kinda reeks of envy that people are now picking up FW units at cheap prices.

Because it's impossible for me to just you know buy recasts as well, right?

Is this the point where I laugh and say you're projecting? Or what? Because that seems to be the thing to do, right?

Maybe I just like collecting Forge World stamped baggies. Who fucking knows? But apparently I can't state common observations but you can make judgments about me. Very not hypocritical.

>> No.29667280

>linking that many posts
>not even all of them are me

Why are you so upset? Do you even have anything relevant to say?

>> No.29667303


You come off as a giant cunt, and I suspect you have no friends.

>> No.29667332


And I bet you don't have a gf, shitlord.

>> No.29667340


>> No.29667344


You come across as a real shitty person.

In a commonly repeated phrase on my local imageboard: "You don't sound as smart as you think you are"

>> No.29667346

>that feel when suddenly your custome chapter ideas have options again
>that feel when you can start making the aesthetic you want and not have to pay out the nose.

I like the conversion options, and honestly I want my space marines to fucking knights with shields is that wrong? and I'd rather pay a little less than my soul for my plastic crack sorry there anons.

>> No.29667388

>everyone on /tg/ acts like they do IRL
>brags about having over 500 facebook friends

You must be Ivy League material.

>> No.29667402


>> No.29667419


There wasn't a single big word in that post, but if you think that was an attempt at sounding smart you're entitled to that opinion.

Perhaps next time you disagree with someone, you can try doing something else, like not throwing out insults and making assumptions. Because that sounds like something a really shitty person would do.

>> No.29667428

I like to save money if I can. It's not my problem that the other guy offers a similar product at a much better price.

>> No.29667430


You know, you're right. Let's focus on the positive for a moment.

Really looking forward to making up some Death Korps myself, they were just out of my budget before. This makes it possible.

Couple of Russ tanks and a few groups of soldiers, just enough for some small games for me.

>> No.29667461

>You know, you're right. Let's focus on the positive for a moment.

Nah, let's keep throwing out insults because we have no argument.

>> No.29667492


I don't even disagree with you on anything, you just come across as a rather unlikeable person.


>> No.29667493

99% of recast buyers are those whiny CSM and IG faggots.

Prove me wrong.

>> No.29667513


Ever think I'm not attempting to come across as likable since you seem to be quite the shitstain yourself? You don't really deserve the courtesy, but it's not like you've shown any either.

>> No.29667547

>you're right, but you're a faggot

Thanks. You're an asset to the board and a shining example of global rule 6.

>> No.29667555


IG reporting in. Cry some more.

Getting me some tanks to fill out my list.

>> No.29667561

I'm buying knock off tiny plastic army men. that isn't really that high on my ethical quandaries list.

>> No.29667580

You seem pretty whiny yourself.

>> No.29667581


m8 I will hook you in the gabber I swear, stop posting anytime.

Just go to bed and think about your life.

>> No.29667587


I run a torture dungeon in my basement. The Chinese resin shaving is what I use to kill my victims.

>> No.29667596

Look up the recasters "most popular" list.

I'm looking at getting some Deathrollers, GW really cunted out when they decided on having a vary useful option the BW box didn't support.
I mean there not even a Boomgun upgrade either.

Sloppy work, and then I have to deal with shitty resin on my pure plastic waggon.

>> No.29667665

second you see they have the chimera hull itself for twelve bucks? Means you can just get the fucking kits you need and be good to go on like a half dozen units.

>> No.29667668

>caring about WYSIWYG on Orks

If you're not playing Imperials nobody will even know what bits you glued on your guys unless they also play your army.

>> No.29667680

I mean, whatever floats your boat man. different strokes for different folks.

>> No.29667785

Is that paintjob done with an airbrush? That is goddamn nice for a WIP

>> No.29667794

I care about WYSIWYG when it's a large feature on the model.

The real beef is the sloppy/greedy shit on GW's side.
Like selling infantry boxes with only the worst special weapons included, anything decent sold on the side.
Or forcing "sergeants" by including insufficient rank and file weapons for all.

>> No.29667868

I didn't see much in the way of elysian recasts are they out there?

>> No.29667923

When the fuck is chinaman going to sell these in metal?

>> No.29667937


Not spotted any yet myself, but I've not been lookin'.

>> No.29668040

I would actually pay good money for those.

>> No.29668095

yoymart has them. Was thinking of ordering because they seem to be hard to get otherwise.

>> No.29668141

I like GW.
I like 40k.
I like my local GW store and I even worked for it so I REALLY like and respect the single staff member who is there now.

But I buy recasts.
If I was American or British I probably wouldn't because the 40% I would save is offset by the import tax, shipping time and damage it does to local stores.
But I'm Australian.
so I don't pay import tax.
And a Waveserpent is 35% of what it costs through GW.

>> No.29668156

>Hey, down here in Australia, Forgeworld is our bloody discount store.
Wait, what?

Original Avenger as in a FW-made one?

>> No.29668188

Do you know if yoymart sells them in metal or resin?

>> No.29668220

>down here in Australia, Forgeworld is our bloody discount store.
>Wait, what?
GW Space Marine Predator $85
FW MkIVc PREDATOR $75+shipping

>> No.29668230



Not even the White-Knights would blame you. I'm so happy for you anon.

>> No.29668301

Seems like metal to me.


>> No.29668370

Yes it's a FW made one! And the quality is atrocious. That feel when your friend buys a bootleg and it's higher quality than your original....MFW

>> No.29668443


Fellow Aussie here. Which recaster do you recommend?

>> No.29668454

I hate it.
I really like the guy who is currently running my old store(its had 5 managers in 5.75 years) and he is probably going to get the boot.
I actually buy paints every now and then, and I even bought the codex and escalation book there...
But I couldn't shell out an extra $60 for a fucking wraith knight, or $140 for my wraithguard

>> No.29668592

Ive bought through taobao, coolcast, and aliexpress(miranda irene).

Coolcast is shit unless you want metal. he uses terribad brittle resin that is just horrible
Taobao can be painful to deal with, and its not significantly cheaper than YOYMART/aliexpress most of the time, it also varies heavily in what type of material you get depending on who you go through.
Aliexpress was the best so far, The resin was identical to the forgeword stuff I already had, exactly the same heat tolerance, colour, weight, it was weird that it was so perfect.

Im going to try through Yoymart next, from what I've seen of other peoples results its probably the the same as aliexpress in quality but i wont know till i get it..

>> No.29668617


Holy smokes.

Did some math there and it seems that you'd be paying 4.6 times the amount for legitimate mini's as compared to bootleg.

>> No.29668679

60$ for a wraithknight? They're 95€ here ....

>> No.29668688

Anyone buy a Warhound from the chinaman? How's the quality of yoymart or aliexpres or others?

Not that I couldnt afford a FW one, but saving $200 sounds like a steal to me if the quality is the same.

>> No.29668692

Loyalist is fine. What sort of postage do they have to Yurop?

>> No.29668698

I paid $64 for 20 wraithguard when teh dollar was good, which is $220 here.

>> No.29668706

Yoymart has FREE postage.

>> No.29668717


>$60 MORE

I misread it as well at first.

>> No.29668724

Got a warhound and a revenant, didn't have a FW warhound but the yoymart revenant is identical to my fw revenant.

>> No.29668728

I paid $55Dollareedoos for my recast, it is perfect.
had i purchased it here it would be $125Dollareedoos. so actually 70 more

wtf man, where are you?

>> No.29668752

Ah sorry I just went a bit 0_o there

>> No.29668757

Got pics of them next to each other?

>> No.29668763

how is it on the battlefield?
I bought a cobra back when it was a 10"template and now I kinda regret it, but I didnt really want a big walker anyway....

>> No.29668765

Any Brit-bongs around?

Does anyone know what the spending limit is here now before they slap on customs tax/import VAT?

I know it came down the other year but Customs and Revenue's website isn't being clear about it.

>> No.29668785

Where can I find this based chinaman?

I got the Zhanchui site and the yoymart.

>> No.29668789

Eastern europe man :S we're a shithole for EVERYTHING...

>> No.29668817

Not unpainted, and I'd rather not posted my painted stuff if it's all the same to you ;)

Ehh it's not that effective, but still fun to use, the sonic lance variation is horrific

>> No.29668834

im from germany and have been woundering about the same quetion.
Is it possible that the german Zoll(customs) will identefy my chinaman shit as counterfit goods and then rapeme? Do i have to pay tax?

>> No.29668864

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of me typing my order in with my raging erection.

>> No.29668876

Also from germany, you'll pay 20% and that's it nothing else worry about

>> No.29668909

ROFL you just made my day mate!

captcha: british asantia

>> No.29668929

>giving two shits about your toys soldiers

Not when there's drugs and illegal immigrants to worry about.

>> No.29668946

and the Turks...

>> No.29668947

wie wollen die den wert von den modellen bestimmen? via rechnung?

>> No.29668952

>Ehh it's not that effective,
Really? Good, makes me feel better about my giant dick gun.
>the sonic lance variation is horrific
How? I dont see why it would be good...

>> No.29668965

Murrican here, the only country I could see that logic actually holding up is Germany.
But then, the Germans are a very meticulous people...

>> No.29668969


Hmm, Nob bikers for US$55 from Miranda Irene. That's bloody tempting. You reckon the resin was just like FW huh? How long did it take for delivery?

>> No.29669008

<1 week but i paid for dhl when I placed my $300 order
4~ for my test of a unit of wraithgurad

>> No.29669024


>not that effective

If 4 Str D pie plates each turn, a 4+ invul save against all damage results, and a 36 inch move that still lets you shoot everything is your definition of "not that effective", I shudder to think of what you might classify as effective.

>> No.29669050

how do they know how much i have paid for my product and how much they should tax me?

>> No.29669055

so how is taobao a pain to deal with?

>> No.29669116

the receipt and you will have to supply the store url

>> No.29669142

ok thx.

>> No.29669144

rechnung und website.

>> No.29669155

>how is taobao a pain to deal with?
Its Like ebay, except in china, and often dealers wont ship outside of China so would need a middle man. I used it because I was already ordering some nerf stuff and it just made sense to grab some plastic crack at the same time.

I haven't bought directly from Zhanchui, But I have heard good things, Hopefully someone else can fill you in.

>> No.29669189


The seller is required to tell them how much the items are being sold for and usually some evidence of the transaction.

If not (or something seems off), they'll hold your item and contact you about it. You then have to send them a copy of your receipt to show it's all above water.

Easy as that. So worst case you might get it delayed for 2 weeks (though I get it only takes half that for you German fags, our services in the UK are shite).

You need to pay 20% import tax and you MAY need to pay a customs fee for the pleasure of having them root around your stuff (we do in the UK).

>> No.29669194

just moonspeak issues

>> No.29669360

>second you see they have the chimera hull itself for twelve bucks? Means you can just get the fucking kits you need and be good to go on like a half dozen units.
Assuming that buying whole counterfeit kits is morally wrong, is buying counterfeit bits also wrong?

>> No.29669429

>Assuming that buying whole counterfeit kits is morally wrong, is buying counterfeit bits also wrong?
But fuck you for your assumption.

>> No.29669475

>Is it possible that the german Zoll(customs) will identefy my chinaman shit as counterfit goods and then rapeme? Do i have to pay tax?
In a previous recast thread we dug into US copyright law and surmised that knowingly importing counterfeit goods from a foreign country is a federal crime punishable by significant jailtime. I don't know about Germany but that's pretty scary for Americans

>> No.29669553

and that's why you never admit to shit

>> No.29669581

not saying I wouldn't its more to fabrticate my own bits or use ones that I already have laying around.

>> No.29669583

Of course the prosecution would have to show you were aware of their illegal status, no?

>> No.29669635


Why bother spending a lot of money on similar quality items when you can get them cheap

>> No.29670093

Got it. Thx

>> No.29670139

Where would i be able to get deathwing special weapons? from what I'm aware of, GW only sells them as part of the command squad set, and that's too fucking expensive.

not necessarily recasts, but i would assume if something was only available in 1 $50 package, it would be cast alot.

>> No.29670189

Yes would be really sad if I got in trouble because of some plastic minis.

>> No.29670253

u wot m8 ill rek u m8 swear on me mum

>> No.29670648


>> No.29670754

Would anybody bother to prosecute so long as you
a) weren't touting in public that your minis are counterfeit, and
b) you weren't and had no (obvious) intention to sell for a profit?

>> No.29671005

You can buy bits on ebay. Look for hoard of bits and the like.

>> No.29671134

Would kill for some 2nd ed 40k recasts

>> No.29671856

if you know some one with a GW trade account like strikeforce you can get REAL models at the price of RECASTS.


>> No.29671885

if you bring recasts or any models perchased from the "INTERNET" into your FLGS however they will NOT become friends with you.

live in the real world and you get the REAL thing for the same price as the FAKE thing.

recasts are dumb

>> No.29672665

Good luck trying to get away with that at all faggot. You'd get fucking laughed out of the building.

>> No.29673066

So heres a question for you guys.

I subscribed white dwarf, despite them not being able to gather enough material PER MONTH without it looking up like some GW catalog, they want to up the publish rate to 4x?

Now I literally have to pay 4x the crap, why???

>> No.29673089


You actually get one free issue of the very first weekly magazine they do, then they continue sending you monthly versions at a discount until your subscription runs out (the old WD cost less than the new monthly one).

>> No.29673120

What if mine was the white dwarf ticket book of 12?

>> No.29673138

So you are saying, some how GW could only come up with shit after 1 month, you somehow think they can miraculously work quadruple pace?

>> No.29673170


Why do you think a weekly 30 page magazine has as much content as the monthly one?

Seriously. Please explain to me how this is the very first conclusion you came to. Because the first thing I thought of was, maybe all 4 of the weekly ones are just the monthly one split into four magazines. But I could be wrong.

>> No.29673191


1 + 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25 = 4

This is literally what you said. I think the word you want is "double to triple" and not "quadruple". Quadruple pace means they release 4 big magazines a month.

>> No.29673261

> Looking for Leman Russ
> They didn't even spell it right
>> Imperial Armour Destroyer Lee Manu Stahnke
>> Imperial Guard Li Man Luce Resin Tanks

Quality looks pretty good though

>> No.29673634

It's the table. The table is not plastic.

>> No.29673718

>he doesn't know about my plastic wooden furniture


>> No.29673733

>someone finds the right build

this is never gonna happen anon

>> No.29673831


You don't need a good build vs Orks. Tyranids should stomp all over Orks. Our long range firepower is laughable, and your characters can snipe out our Nobs and leaders with impunity. Hell, the only character in our army that can stand toe to toe with a Hive Tyrant is bloody Ghazkhull.

>> No.29674136

I have bought a whole bunch of stuff from him (britbong here). the stuff arrived within 3 weeks, was compleatly fine, and really easy to order. cheap too, 100yaun for shipping

>> No.29674192

received a set of 9 thallaxi a friend ordered for me as a late christmas present. Very minor issues, mostly with the vent tubes where they pour the resin due to slightly brittle resin. Also, the resin was the same color as current GW plastic.

tl:dr pretty good. will order from them in the future.

>> No.29674241

Hey Shas'o.

My Thallax were top notch from Yoymart. One leg out of the batch was missing a footpad, but that I think was due to breaking in production, since the other two copies of the same leg had the footpad. Otherwise, Almost impossible to tell them apart from the real deal (other than color)

>> No.29674254

It's actually the deffrolla. they don't have the battlewagon.

>> No.29674291

I got my stuff in about 10 business days, but I'm in the western U.S.

>> No.29674475

>Buy harles from a GW
>Theyre practically half there, bubbled and spiderwebbed to shit
>Dude wont let me return them to get my $36 back

Fuck you Games Workshop

>> No.29674543

Go to a different store or ring the company.
That shit won't fly in the UK thanks to fair trading standards.

>> No.29674567

So, $55 Nob Bikers from Aliex


Or, $34 from Yoymart


On the one hand, the Aliex stuff is vouched for in this thread. On the other hand, yoy is cheaper.

Help me decide /tg/

>> No.29674581

fuck, I want a riptide for 35 bones, but my paypal got fucked over and is locked down

>> No.29674638

Wait wait wait is that a fucking Atlantean Mutant cosplay?

>Female Titan


>> No.29674720

Anyone else get dizzy after shaving chinaman resin off the models?

>> No.29674743



>> No.29674750

Dude I'm the guy who vouched for aliexpress, and even I would say drop the $34 on YOYmart.
worst case you have spent $34 on early finecast equivalents, and as its orks its easy to deal with minor problems.

>> No.29674769

This is what I get for using replicated models in a GW store. Oh the irony.

>> No.29674782

Quite fucking honestly I have nothing to rationalize. I pay for a good that I want (GW minis). I buy some from GW. Then I am introduced to a provider of the same good, at a better price. The recast minis come with a drawback; they are brittle, but the guy I buy from casts them very well, so brittleness is the only problem. Yes, GW is having their copyright infringed, but hat is their problem, not mine. China never has given a single fuck about western copyright laws. You can get anything in a cheap knockoff from china. From minis to movies to furniture, its all available. Yes, re-caster vendors like yoybuy are nicking money from GW's wallets, but that is GW's problem to fix. Its not illegal to buy a counterfeit Rolex watch from a dude on the street, nor is it illegal to buy recast miniatures. It is illegal to sell recast minis, but no to own, buy, or make them. Just because the consumer goes into the purchase aware of the counterfeit nature of their acquired product does not make it more illegal

>> No.29674829

>They will usually not be painted
Oh, so if you see a painted model there's no way it could be counterfeit! Nothing to worry about.

>> No.29674831

Note how the thief continues to point out the legalism of his choices.

Wants to know the ethical reasoning behind his behavior.

Beware the the thief in all things, he might even steal your dice.

>> No.29674860

GW fucking reams people over these little plastic men, I will never help them continue their terrible business practices

>> No.29674893

They're simply a business and they have every right to charge painstakingly high prices. Paying for stolen merch isn't going to stop them from selling minis anon. you must stop gw through other means

>> No.29674905

Coolcast yes,
Proper grey resin from Taobao, zanchui, Aliexpress, no more than forgeworld

>> No.29674957


Like what exactly? They ignore customer feedback, declining sales just resulted in DLC being put out and poor quality codices being rushed into production, and management has made it very clear that they regard us as little more than useful idiots. Short of us banding together and buying every GW share, then putting ourselves in control of the company, I fail to see how exactly we can stop them.

>> No.29674962

GW drone detected

>> No.29674981

Violence solves problems usually. Like when you see cruddace kick him in the nards and ask him how his codex feels

>> No.29674997

I swear to you if I ever win the lottery I will buy GW and reduce prices 75%, and use money from videogame licenses to keep it afloat.

>> No.29675045


>> No.29675478

Ok then you angry little man

>> No.29676549


>They're simply a business and they have every right to charge painstakingly high prices.

I disagree.

>> No.29677225

Randfag pls go

>> No.29677975

see, I laughed my ass off at thetranslation errors, that said I'm surprised there wasn't an actual Lemon Russ

>> No.29679058

Warhound is 350ish on Aliexpress

300 on yoymart

Which one I buy? Who's got the more reliable quality?

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