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[ERROR] No.24436094 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

ITT: Gaming experiences that turned you off a system forever

>Playing Sorcerer
>Me: Can I blow down this door with my at-will?
>GM: No, the description says it only works against enemies. The door isn't actually an enemy, nor does it have a reflex defense. Ergo, no go
Later....
>Enemies in the water
>Me: Cool, I've got my lightning magic, gonna fry these suckers!
>GM: Nope, nothing in the rules that lets you do that
>Me: Why? So electrical conduction isn't a thing in this universe? I can't even slice a tiny bit of HP off?
>GM: Stuff like that isn't spelled out in the rules so it doesn't exist. Also your power doesn't say it can work like that. Creativity is no substitute for a Daily
>Sometime afterward, conduction suddenly becomes a thing when it helps our enemies
Later....
>GM: I don't know why you guys aren't having fun. I'm throwing all this combat at you--
>Us: But we want to roleplay more
>But I always enjoy combat more so let's go with that for now
(We eventually talked him out of this)
>Our party leader really fucking loves 40K. Acts like a retarded space marine, zero tactics, goes in guns blazing. Doesn't really care about anyone except for maybe one other party member. Gets pissed when it's pointed out no sane person should ever follow him

In general:
>Plot meanders all over the place and doesn't make any sense
>GM throws random encounters at us that sound cool in theory but don't make sense in-context
>"Multiclassing" is a joke
>Overpriced rituals

Under other circumstances, I might have come to enjoy 4e

>> No.24436154

I was going to transcribe this into a 3.5 version with a warlock and shit but can't be bothered, someone else do it

tl;dr edition war etc

>> No.24436185

>>24436154
Fuck off, it's about subjective experiences destroying enthusiasm for otherwise enjoyable systems. Edition wars can go to hell.

>> No.24436254

>>24436094
WFRP 3rd ed.
I opened the rulebook. That was it.

>> No.24436258

>>24436185
If you knew it's a problem with the player/gm and not the system, why has it "turned you off the system forever" and why did you feel the need to post this?

>> No.24436273

>>24436258
Because it wants a rage thread.
It's like we're being invade by /v/ or something

>> No.24436284

>>24436094
GURPS 2e after shooting a guy in the head at point blank and missing. Fucking passive defense

>> No.24436290

I had heard tales of 3.5 and imbalance, but I was playing just to have fun, but then my unoptimized druid ended up doing everything the fighter and rogue did 100 times better while spellcasting and moving twice as fast.

>> No.24436300

>>24436094

>hating on the system
>not your gm

Full retard.

>> No.24436312

>>24436258
Because first impressions are really fucking important. If your introduction to a system is made by an incompetent dickhead, well, that could turn you off a system forever.

Same thing almost happened to me with Shadowrun. My first GM was a massive douche with railroading and fudged rolls out the ass, it wasn't until about three years later that I gave the system another chance and started enjoying it.

>> No.24436321

>>24436094
>Gets pissed when it's pointed out no sane person should ever follow him

He's your party leader, either follow him or find a new leader.

>> No.24436403

>Magical Burst
>First encounter of our first session is literally so hard that we have to use like three Overcharge dice per fucking turn just to have a shot at doing anything successfully
>The Witch is reducing basically anyone it hits to single digit Resolve in one attack, if not outright defeating them
>We win because the GM decided to stop bullshitting the monster's HP
>Three of our four meguka party into the deep end of the Fallout chart, resulting in turning most of the town, and most of our megukas, insane with rage

>> No.24436427

>>24436094
>First time playing Rogue Trader
>No ship of our own, yet, we arrive at Port Wander as the crew of a refugee transport fleeing tyranids
>Suddenly, genestealers in the below decks!
>Abort dock, burn thrusters away from station to institute quarantine
>Too late, the ship is overrun!
>Techpriest recommends scuttling the ship
>Fight off waves of 'stealers as we make our way to engineering
>Controls are locked out by infected crew, can't activate self destruct
>Decide to shoot out warp drive containment, flee to saviour pod in epic style
>Suddenly, the whole party is teleported away
>By the way, everyone roll toughness to not throw up
>Inquisition has come to our "rescue"
>Blows up the ship for us
>Berates us for our inability to deal with the genestealers

Fuck you, GM. Fuck you very much.

>> No.24436574

>>24436403

To be fair, thats fairly accurate for how most magical girl escapades go.

>> No.24436662

>>24436427
Lead a mutiny and flay your GM alive. Not joking.

>> No.24436722

>>24436094
I'm very sorry for you OP, especially considering that your GM was wrong.
I dunno, try running it/playing with other people?

>> No.24436723

>Creativity is no substitute for a Daily

I want to start punching your DM and never stop.

>> No.24436804

I have one!

>Cthulhu d20
>GM says we're going to work for MiskatonicU
>We all roll scholarly types except the gun nut who plays a war vet
>Game starts, we are sent on a jungle expedition
>even though we are not at all suited for the mission
>get lost in the jungle
>fight indios like it was 'Nam
>Gun nut player complains that guns aren't realistic enough
>suddenly, guns become one hit one kill
>another player plays a doctor
>doctor starts giving my character drugs without my consent, for shits and giggles
>GM rolls with it
>now I'm an addict

We managed to get to the end of that game and come back, then the game went nowhere.
And CoC d20 wasn't that great to begin with.

>> No.24436808

>>24436723
You'll need this.

>> No.24436818

I had a DM like that once, OP.

I played a fire sorcerer who wasn't allowed to burn things. Oh sure, he had neat fire-based attacks, but it took the full open revolt of all the players in the group to allow me to set a house full of ghosts on fire.

Apparently we were supposed to go in there and fight the ghosts, which my sorcerer didn't think was that great of an option.

I recommend abusing ability powers and rituals, which is what I eventually took to doing. My crowning achievement was escaping the town guard, who falsely accused us of some crime so we could be railroaded into a prison escape segment, by using Sorcerous Sirocco on my riding horse and flying over the town wall. Also: Using Knock to easily open all locked doors, and Circle of Warding to become untouchable by almost anything, provided I know what we're going up against.

4e isn't the greatest system, but it can be much, much better than your DM was making it.

>> No.24437156

>>24436094
Dude, your GM was a dick. There's literally a rule in 4e that says "if it sounds cool, let it happen, here's a damage guide for stunts"

>> No.24437270

first campaign was 3.5, where to begin

>Character creation
>Learn that the DM's autistic son is joining the group
>Bullshit ensues

>Walking around town
>DM describes people being raped out in the open
>Fucken what

>DM sends our group against a Holocaust of Flame
>Me and two others die horribly
>Find out he added everyone's levels to determine CR

And then we ditched him, went to 4E and haven't looked back since. If it wasn't for that, I would've gone back to the Rogue Trader campaign where only I knew anything about the setting.

>> No.24437291

>join D&D 4e game with my girlfriend in Borders, back when they existed
>DM is scrawny 14-year-old boy, requests people refer to him as "Ozma"
>herewego.jpg

>play a half-orc battlemind named THRAGSTEIN, plan to roleplay him as an intellectual that has an irresistible racial predilection for smashing things that he works out through adventuring
>we start in a field
>why are we in a field
>a fellow player answers "Well we were in a city for a bit, but everyone was mad at us there so we left."
>ooooookay
>suddenly, DRAGON
>it's this insanely big elemental dragon with fire and lightening and shit
>we're all level three
>whelp Thragstein, our two minutes together has been fun
>in-character, point out that this is probably not going to work out in our favor and, in a gruff voice, suggest an "aggressive retreat"
>neckbear across the table openly scoffs at my roleplaying, tells me that I should only be here for "loot and experience"
>what.
>dragon continues to be a thing, looking threatening as fuck
>this is about the time that I realize the DM has been describing Deathwing from WoW

>SUDDENLY, A FEMALE ELF WIZARD FALLS OUT OF THE SKY
>the DM, naturally, takes time to describe her perfect breasts
>girlfriend is pretty weirded out, but decides to let it slide
>DM tells us that this hot elf wizard chick has a name: Ozma
>he sits there with a smug "Isn't my character AWESOME" look on his face
>describes the duel Ozma proceeds to have with the dragon, using the word "Epic" to describe it
>suddenly Ozma teleports us all away to a grove of talking trees
>DM starts describing perfectly Moonglade from WoW
>we aren't allowed to talk to the trees, but we can talk to Ozma, who can talk to the trees in their secret tree-language
>Thragstein is understandably confused by the events that have unfolded
>I try to ask the trees questions, like "Where are we?" and "Who is this Ozma chick and why were we fighting a dragon?"

Cont.

>> No.24437334

>>24437291

>apparently the trees only want to tell us about EPIC QUEST to COLLECT ELEMENTAL STONES to DEFEAT DRAGON or some shit
>"But... where are we?"
>ELEMENTAL STONES

>DM then informs us that he's all out of material
>says it took two hours to write, he thought it'd take two hours to run
>asks if we'll show up next week
>we've been sitting down for 45 minutes at this point, and had literally done nothing
>nope.jpg on out of there, never see him again

We picked up some pretty bro roleplayers later from the Borders crowd, so at least it wasn't a total loss.

>> No.24437360

>>24436723

>Thinking the use of lightning on opponents in, of, or affected by water constitutes "creativity" particularly.

I'll hold him down for you.

>> No.24437415

>>24437291
>>24437334

>Borders

>> No.24437462

>>24437360
This. I'll bring the bat.

>> No.24437473

>>24437291
>>24437334

Oh dear god. That's just... sad, really. Mostly.

Still, quest givers that are literally incapable of answering with anything but THY EPIC QUEST are funny.

"Where are we?"
"WELCOME BRAVE HEROES! YOUR QUEST AWAITS!"
"What the fuck? No, seriously, who are you and where are we?"
"YOU MUST GO TO THE TEMPLE OF THE EVERLIVING AND SEEK OUT THE GEM OF DARKNESS! GO BRAVE HEROES! GO FORTH!"
"What the fuck is even happening? No. How do we get out of here, how do I get back home?"
"The... THE GREAT ADVENTURE AWAITS!"
"Yeah, okay. I'll find my own way out."
"YOU MUST GO TO THE TEMPLE! FORSOOTH!"

>> No.24437494

>>24437291

>hurr loot and XP only

Bitch, if I want to play Diablo I'd play Diablo.

Why do people tolerate these shitheads? At all?

>> No.24437512

>>24437462
In a recent 4e session, we defeated a fairly nasty elite by dogpiling him and drowning him in a trough.

I feel it would be appropriate if you would allow me to hold him under said trough as you beat him.

>> No.24437563

>>24437334
>DM then informs us that he's all out of material
>says it took two hours to write, he thought it'd take two hours to run

Man plans, God laughs.

>> No.24437585

Rifts
>Rifts

That is all.

>> No.24437647

>>24437334
Huh... seriously, does your DM took 2 hours to write:

>You're in the middle of no where because you were kicked out of the city for being a bunch of dicks.
>A wild dragon appears!
>Wild dragon uses elemental breath! You're so fucked.
>Here comes a new challenger.
>Muh perfect DMPC Mary Sue wizard kills the dragon.
>Now you're in the middle of a bunch of trees.
>Your epic quest if you decide to accept it is to collect a bunch of stones.

Seriously? Tell me he came with some nifty deep descriptions, and not just some vaguely "huge dragon" phrases.

>> No.24437649

>>24437494
Here's an interesting thought.
This 14 year old DM found a group of likeminded players.

Right now they could be having a blast playing World of 4craft. The players hanging on to his every word as he describes the flash of colour they glimpse of Ozma's panties when she casts some epic spell. Clenching a fist of victory when the DM awards him a Sword of a Thousand Truths. The gasps of shock and awe as hundreds of hellhounds teleport into the room for no goddamn reason. The nods of satisfaction as they are put in the ground and the encounter simply ends and why 100 hellhounds showed up out of nowhere is never, ever explained.

And they can't wait for the next session.
Terrifying, isn't it?

>> No.24437651

>>24437291
Ozma was the name of the true queen of Oz. Blonde hair, magical, etc...
Just saying, in case the DM was referencing that too.

>> No.24437705

>>24437647
I think the biggest problem was
>DM is scrawny 14-year-old boy

>> No.24437761

>>24436273
>wants a rage thread.
>invade by /v/

Sounds like it got what it wants.

>> No.24437774

>>24437291
>neckbear

>> No.24437786

Not my first time playing the system, but probably the main reason I stopped playing.

>4e campaign with bros
>not having to DM for once
>start in dark, damp underground
>first combat takes a hour to finish
>try to use dungeoneering correctly, get shut down by DM because "doesn't say so in the book"
>finally stop play after two combat sessions and about 10 minutes of rp, for a total of 3 hours played
>50 minutes of that was spent having the others draw up characters

Seriously, I am know scared as hell to let anyone else DM if its my group of friends. I also want to play some 40k RP, but i'm the only one that knows 40k well enough to play the game in my group.

>> No.24437795

>>24437647
2 hours of finding words to describe breasts

>> No.24437800

>>24437647

I think he had a ton planned for the city that the players left before we joined. I think my girlfriend and I had the misfortune of joining right when he was in full DAMAGE CONTROL OH GOD HOW DO I FIX THIS mode.

Needless to say, his descriptions weren't much beyond "Dragon is big and has fire."

>>24437649

Yeah, I figured. He probably got used to the DM style by playing with his peers in a game exactly like the one I played.

Funny how BADWRONGFUN is that insanely subjective.

>>24437651

It's also a fairly common Japanese name, which, considering what the kid looked like, was probably more likely.

He didn't seem like the type to know the full history of the Wizard of Oz, for whatever reason.

>> No.24437841

>>24437774
When I read "Neckbear" I pictured a bear with a very long neck.

>> No.24437855

>>24437841
So did I, but I only had that picture handy.

>> No.24437857

>>24437334

Copypasta. Still good.

>> No.24437864

>>24437291

>takes time to describe perfect breasts
>asks people call him "Ozma"

I think I'm sensing some hidden issues.

>> No.24437887

>>24436254
That sucks bro. My group loves the 3rd edition im Running.

Never understood the hate.

>> No.24437892

>>24437855
Sounds kinda terrifying.
Should be a monster.

>> No.24437902

>>24437887

Well, it's a big departure from the older editions. I understand why WFPR grognards are pissed about it. But yeah, it's a nice game still.

>> No.24437921

>>24437786
>I am know scared as hell to let anyone else DM if its my group of friends

That feel, man. I understand that feel.

My one player that actually is motivated to DM seems determined to turn EVERYTHING into a Doctor Who reference, regardless of system.

Kind of kills D&D when you know there's a guy in a blue box watching over your party, ready to intervene in the most WACKY way possible should anything go wrong.

I imagine it's pretty similar to how Elminster shows up in most FR games.

>> No.24437935

>>24437795
more likely - 1:52 to find words to describe breasts, 3 minutes to hump a pillow and 5 minutes to hash out the rest of the 'plot'

>> No.24437937

Since this is already floating around /tg/, I'm gonna be lazy and just post the pic form of the account.

Subverted in that I'm still okay with playing Modern. So far.

>> No.24437957

This thread makes me sad. As a DM, I totally run with whatever my players want to try. Wizard use ray of frost on a stream to freeze Bullywugs inside of it, again allow said wizard to make up uses for his cantrips like light to blind a low light vision monster, or something involving taste to make a giant frog think our ranger tasted like literal shit to spot him out. Barbarian used a table as a weapon once.

4E may have some flaws, but I place most of the blame for its hate squarely on shitty dm's and or shitty players that cannot into role play.

>> No.24437962

>>24436094
This is a bad DM. The system didn't force him to be a RAW faggot.

>> No.24438013

>>24436094
Don't blame the rules, blame your pedantic imaginationless DM.

>> No.24438027

Surprisingly, I can understand where OP's DM is coming from.

There are certain times where I come down on my party with RAW, but I always try and have a fluff explanation for it. Certain spells are designed to interface with certain types of magical patterns, meaning that, because Waterwalk says it can only be cast on "willing creatures," you can't cast it on the King of the Merpeople's throne and cause it to shoot up to the surface like a rocket.

Player creativity is good, but sometimes there are lines you have to draw to prevent abuse and Looney Tunes shit from becoming the norm.

OP's DM was still very much a faggot, but there's a method to the madness.

>> No.24438040

I wish I could give a big GREEN TEXT as to what pissed me off and turned me off D&D 3.5 the last time I ran it but... suffice to say it went like this:

I had two REALLY SHITTY problem players. One asshole THAT GUY who wanted to deck his character out with everything under the sun and give him a castle and a million servants and allies under the sun and a cult and to be a psionic half fey dragonfire adept cause he occasionally lost a couple save effects (which I learned were complete horseshit anyway so) and the only reason I went along with him was because I didn't realize he was a batshit crazy socially inept, unhinged redneck who was using my game to play out his self insert dream fanfiction.

The second player was this no-fun bitch who actually WAS a legit powergamer who played a cleric and I stupidly allowed Divine Meta Magic cause I didn't realize all this shit was broken out the ass. When she was easily out-performing the ranger in combat and would back-seat GM to me (she did that a lot) and told me just how under-optimized practically all of the characters were except the wizard of the group, who was just holding back apparently, then she got really asspained and bitchy whenever I brought in a dumb reference to an anime or whatever.

And you know? That's fair. I'll admit dumb shit like that isn't everyones cup of tea (BTW she apparently thought Code Geass was one of her 'mature' anime she liked. Figure that one out) but she was so PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE about it that I was constantly second guessing myself every which way. Also she hated the first guy for whatever dumb reason, apparently him playing an arrogant mary sue was terrible but her playing a psychotic bitch who threatens to murder party members is JUST SO SERIOUS AND MATURE~

>> No.24438087

>>24438040

Anyway they got into the stupidest argument ever. When I gave a perfectly valid plot hook to go exploring this land for parts for an airship she wanted to go right now, but he didn't want to go right away and wanted to prepare for some inane reason (I think he thought his character couldn't just leave the castle unattended) and when I got mad and tried to settle both of them down SHE walked and then HE left and after all that it fell apart cause you can't fucking recover a game after two players decide to be jackasses and walk.

I guess what turned me off 3.5 wasn't so much the drama, but the way the bitch systematically broke down what was wrong with D&D 3.5, she was a Cleric but she never healed because it was more efficient to just unload damage onto enemies in combat and heal afterward. She buffed herself to the point where she could easily take down monsters equal to her CR and explained how the Wizard could easily wreck the party with a few good spells.

It was a fucking mess all around after those two joined and I haven't RPed with them ever again. Cause fuck those guys.

>> No.24438105

>>24438040
>THAT GUY who wanted to deck his character out with everything under the sun and give him a castle and a million servants and allies under the sun and a cult and to be a psionic half fey dragonfire adept

Oh god, I have a friend just like this, only he does his damn hardest to do it by the book so he can go "but, Its all legit per character building rules!".

>> No.24438107

>>24438087

>Cleric refusing to heal
>bitches about how awesome her and the wizard can be
>is a selfish fuck instead of working WITH the party

Well, there's your problem.

>> No.24438111

>>24436094
That is a problem with the GM, not the game.

>> No.24438153

>>24438107

No the wizard was another player.

She was just explaining Caster supremacy.

>> No.24438161

>>24438087
>>24438040
in b4 "3.5 is fine as long as you don't allow broken characters"

no that's bullshit, the only way to know what's broken and what isn't is if you have an encyclopedic knowledge of every supplement and which combinations are broken and you wouldn't know those unless you'd been following the character builder forums for the past 8 years.

>> No.24438185

>>24438107
>>24438153

Oh whoops I misread.

The point was: she was RIGHT.

It was more efficient to just full on attack monsters and only heal outside of combat.

It was more efficient to just have the wizard summon monsters and use area save or die/get fucked spells.

It wasn't about working with the party: it was that being selfish was the optimal solution.

>> No.24438225

OP here. Since there's been so many "blame the GM, not the game" responses, allow me to clarify:

I'm not blaming the system for everything. Most of it was due to the way it was run, I thought that much would be obvious. But there were some features, such as the so-called multiclassing and overly expensive rituals which turned me off. As I said, under different circumstances, things probably could have been different. Not different enough to turn me into an avid 4e fan, but different nonetheless.

But in the end, I'm like a lot of people. My negative experience is associated pretty heavily with 4e and ends up giving me an uneasy, maybe even sour feel about the game. It's not fair, not particularly enlightened at all, but it is what it is.

>> No.24438233

>>24437841
No, that's a Bearaffe.

>> No.24438244

>buddy of mine tells me he wants me and friends to help him test out 4e
>okay, seems legit
>"we're gonna do it "by the book" for the first couple of sessions to see how it plays, and if we have any problems I'll start houseruling some stuff."
>all right
>roll up hack-and-slash two-weapon ranger
>get mobbed on by a bunch of kobolds with 1hp each
>I get hit with a rock, go into a bloodied state
>party are attacking the kobolds, but unbelievably, they are missing every roll
>I bleed out because I'm getting bludgeoned to death with rocks.
>okay okay, let's redo that scene, okay guys?
>this time the cleric goes down from a rock and everyone else spends time catastrophically missing every roll
>the other kobolds slaughter us all with spears because we can't hit for shit and they hit every turn
>okay okay, fuck it, no minions.
>fey step behind boss, blitzkrieg, SPEND ACTION POINT, KEEP GOING
>I have successfully solo'd the boss
>I can't fight 1hp minion kobolds to save my life
>or the lives of my party members

>> No.24438256

>>24438185

Yes, I'm aware of the CoDzilla antics. I'm also aware of how utterly bullshit some people can get in 3.5 (hell, I powergamed it hardcore myself my last game). But just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Yeah Evocation spells and lighting's all fun and stuff, but in the end it's parlor tricks. Someone who abuses Divination can twist the game and break its knees, while Transmutation can go pretty damn far with a creative mind. Even then, people who are so selfish as to try to claim "the game encourages me" isn't really thinking about the other players. It's about having fun with others, not bringing together 3+ other people just to watch you circlejerk to your antics.

Pic unrelated.

>> No.24438257

Gotta say all this 4e terribad DMing has got my Jimmies really rustled.

It's a game that has loose rules on things on purpose, it's a role playing game, your supposed to use your imagination.

Yes an at will can break down a wooden door, yes lightning in shallow water should give you a bonus (max dmg imo) FUCKING UNCREATIVE DM'S!

>> No.24438297

>>24438161
No 3.5 is fine as long as your player's aren't dicks.

>> No.24438314

>>24438297
The dicks are fine as long as they're not chodes.

>> No.24438322

>>24436094
"Lol Whats homebrewing?"

seriously, if you have to follow the book to a fucking T, you're in the wrong business being a fucking GM in the first place.

>> No.24438352

>>24438040
>then she got really asspained and bitchy whenever I brought in a dumb reference to an anime or whatever.

Ozma plz go.

>> No.24438363

>First (and only) time playing a D&D 4e campaign
>Ravenloft module
>Have none of the books
>DM builds my character for me, a ranger, since the party needed a striker
>Hear that rangers are the most versatile class
>Excellent
>Specializes my character to the point where all I can do is nature check and fill things with arrows using a greatbow
>Not so excellent, but I could run with it
First three sessions
>Basically just sit within 10 tiles of where I started and fill enemies with arrows
>Nothing but lucky archers and wizards can touch me
>Focus on taking them out while my party deals with melee
>Fun, but combat seems to drag a bit
After that
>Start encountering giant spiders, vampire spawn and demonic slimes
>They drop from the roof or seep through the floor at random when we start winning encounters
>Apparently the roof is too high to be lit in most encounter rooms, so we can't detect them if they're up there
>I'm absolutely fucked as I often end up with two enemies on me and I take more hits from being flanked
>Can't do shit since the DM's character build is designed for nature and shooting
>Decide to let my character die naturally
>Learn at this point that you get three saves vs death
>If I don't succeed the first save, I always succeed the second
>mfw I don't have the image, but it's that one where those guys are throwing themselves off a cliff and complaining that gravity is too weak and their bones aren't broken enough
Eventually
>Combat is getting ludicrously long at one encounter per session, sessions running for four hours
>Gettin' real sick of this bullshit
>Guy playing the party's paladin tells me about retraining
>Finally get the books
>Start reading up on how retraining works
>Suddenly the DM is too busy to run his game
>DM drops off the face of the earth
>DM's friends try and contact him about the game, he indignantly refuses to discuss it
Next, I'll tell you about how I figured out he was the group's That Guy, if you want to hear it

>> No.24438370

>>24438314
The chodes are fine as long as they're not circumcised.

>> No.24438380

>>24438040
>>THAT GUY who wanted to deck his character out with everything under the sun and give him a castle and a million servants and allies under the sun and a cult and to be a psionic half fey dragonfire adept

I would give him what he wants and at the right moment when he goes "to adventure" alone, i would send him some assassins from the Cult of the Shadow and build a plot about it.

If the players complains, just kill his char.

>> No.24438396

>>24438370
>circumcising a chode

Goy, do you even mohel?

>> No.24438408

>>24438363
It's like you think /tg/ doesn't like stories or something

>> No.24438410

>GM has no idea how to handle a game
>Blame the system
Then you play Rogue Trader and he says you're not allowed to shoot the clearly 'inevitable betrayal' character on sight because there's nothing in the module that says it's a possibility. Then you play Shadowrun, he says your decker can't hack open an electromagnetically sealed door because etc etc.

>> No.24438419

>>24438363
>>If I don't succeed the first save, I always succeed the second

succeeding on death saves doesn't mean you recover or stabilize, it just means for that round you don't get closer to dying. Only if you get a natural 20 are you able to spend a healing surge by yourself and get back up.

>> No.24438436

>>24438363

>Asking if we want a story.

I'm waiting.

>> No.24438465

>>24438410
>Then you play Rogue Trader and he says you're not allowed to shoot the clearly 'inevitable betrayal' character on sight because there's nothing in the module that says it's a possibility.
>Then you play Rogue Trader
>play Rogue Trader

;_;

>> No.24438466

>>24438363
When doesn't /tg/ want a story?

>> No.24438486

>>24438396
Shut up. Your language sounds like someone trying to clear their throat and your sideburns look goofy.

>> No.24438521

>>24436094
The problem is your DM, not the system.
>Me: Can I blow down this door with my at-will?
>Me: Cool, I've got my lightning magic, gonna fry these suckers!
If I were DMing your game in the same system, not only would I have let you get away with this, I might've given you some bonus EXP just for not thinking strictly in game terms.

>> No.24438549

>>24438363
Story time? Story time.

:3

>> No.24438554

>>24437902
Thats fair Enough point. I'm thinking about buying some of the older books for there awesome fun stuff.

>> No.24438590

>>24438408
Mein neger!
>>24438363 cont.
>Paladin guy decides to run a Shadowrun campaign in the DM's absence
>No one else had played Shadowrun before, so he let us re-optimize our characters if their skills didn't fit how we played them FORESHADOWING
>First two sessions are brilliant
>Only character who needs to respec. is the group's technomancer since he was dissatisfied with how technomancers worked
>Third session
>Who should turn up with a Shadowrun character ready? Fucking That Guy, our old DM
>Worked with our technomancer the night before to turn his character into a hacker
>Plays the party face, an English ex-Johnson
>Ends up taking charge of the party from the hacker
>He re-optimizes all of our characters to be more effective
>This was okay, but I was playing a troll enforcer and with this guy in charge, I ended up just being a meat shield with a grenade launcher I got to use once
>Every other time, That Guy negotiated us out of trouble
>Final battle was a lack-luster showdown between our hacker's rocket drones and a dragon
Aftermath and the fall
>That Guy still refuses to run his Ravenloft campaign
>GM switches us over to a Lonewolf game
>That Guy turns up again without his campaign and with a ready-made character
>Turns out he can only role-play eloquent Englishmen
>Min/maxed his character to the point the rest of us were redundant including the guy playing as a Kai
>That campaign ends
>That Guy still doesn't have his ready, except he seems to have the time to write up a new one
>No one can run anything
>People move away
>Group falls apart
;_;

>> No.24438614

>>24438419
Yeah, I found that out later too. It's a shame my party was helpful and full of bros as well.

>> No.24438658

>>24436094

The problem is with your DM, not the system. He sounds like an annoying autist. Hell, the DMG has a section on improvised actions and stuff.

When the wizard in our group wants to use magic missile to knock down a brazier, or scorching burst to light a barrel of oil, I let him.

Also, 4e multiclassing is a small dip into another class. For 2e style multiclassing there's hybrids.

>> No.24438666

>>24438225
Multiclassing isn't that big of a deal. In 3 you would multiclass mainly to dip. In 4 you tend to do it to snipe class feats or in lieu of taking skill training.

For any other purpose, you Hybrid.

>> No.24438709 [DELETED] 

I have never finished a campaign. My group wanted to go through the campaign modules, and I was okay with that. Each one of us would take a book and DM That module.
We did one campaign in the first book and never did any of the others.
Every one of my campaigns as a DM has ended with the players quiting for various reasons.
Everytime I have played, the DM has fucked it up in the first session and the other players hate it...

I wish I knew what completing a campaign felt like.

>> No.24438724

>Playing a fighter in 3.5e for the first time.
>First battle is defending a farm from some orcs.
>A single orc charges me and rolls a nat 20 with a greataxe.
>Instant death.
>Wizard casts sleep and fight ends.

Fuck this system.

>> No.24438732

I have never finished a campaign. My group wanted to go through the campaign modules, and I was okay with that. Each one of us would take a book and DM That module.
We did one session in the first book and never did any of the others.
Every one of my campaigns as a DM has ended with the players quiting for various reasons.
Everytime I have played, the DM has fucked it up in the first session and the other players hate it...

I wish I knew what completing a campaign felt like.

>> No.24438763

>>24438658
>>24438666
I will say this much: All of my knowledge of 4e comes from what the DM and maybe one other player told me, and Hybrids never came up. I was under the impression that once you built your character under a certain class, that was pretty much it and I'm locked in for life.

Also, to the first poster, addressed your first point further up the thread.

>> No.24438829

>>24438763
I kinda of like the idea of how multiclassing was handled in 4e actually. You spend feats as you go to grab more and more shit from the other class.

That's the IDEA anyway. Unfortunately, what they give you is Power Swap. So you spend a feat and you don't even really gain anything, just the ability to swap out one of your own powers for one from the other class. Which kinda blows for a feat slow.

There are some other nice things you can snag though.

Hybrids are very 2e. You basically get locked into being an X/Y. Hybrids can also still take a multiclass feat as well though. It's hard to make options like that decent, but not impossible and its there if you're after flavor.

>> No.24438930

>>24438829
Not a big fan of being locked into anything for life, I'm afraid. DM never brought up Power Swap to the best of my memory, but it probably would have been a bad trade anyway.

I might just stick to Warriors and Warlocks or something.

>> No.24439026

>>24436094
>Putting people down for being creative
OP, I'd kill for players that come up with shit like that
Half the fun for me is their inventive methods and crazy scehemes to deal with shit
You'd be welcome in my group, and I'd never let you go

>> No.24439033

>>24437360
What he should have done is split the damage between the guys standing there.

Yeah, it affects everyone but you are still only sending a jolt of X power into the water. Still good for killing mooks or spreading whatever on hit rider it has.

>> No.24439128

>>24439033
What he should have done is ANYTHING. ANYTHING other than, "No you can't."

>> No.24440855

>>24437585
All this says is "My campaign is fucking metal!"

>> No.24440977

>>24437649
This around entertaining to see and sounds like how sessions with a drunk DM are supposed to go. I want to see the adventures of the his group unfold now.

>> No.24441134

>>24437585
All my feels.
Fuck that game.

> "Nah, Anon, RIFTS is super cool! Our entire group plays it and loves it!"
> I'm not sure... Eighties/Nineties RPG Madness really doesn't sound like my thing...
> "Nah, anon, its the greatest RPG ever! It's all of our favorite! We all play half-dog demi-gods based on real mythology!"
> We all play half-dog demi-gods based on real mythology!
> All play half-dog
>real mythology
> half-dog
> dog

I played three sessions of it.
Fuck those guys. Forever.

>> No.24441486

My first experience with 3.5 was rolling up a cleric with a bit of melee talent so I could get in there with a bastard sword and smite things for Heironius when things got hairy but still heal the party and do clericy things if it got really bad. I was making this character to join a college gaming group, and also didn't have much idea about the system beyond some pretty basic ideas at the time, so I didn't set out to make a clericzilla either.

In my very first session, during the very first combat, the first action was to have an enemy spellcaster do dominate person on the group's fighter, who ended up doing a beserker charge at me with a greataxe. And critically hit me.

I went from full health to beyond -10 in the first combat. The entire group was just kind of sheepish about the whole thing and it was kind of awkward.

>that feel when I can't play ANY divine character in ANY system with ANY group because they invariably die before level 2, level 3 at the most

>> No.24441775

>>24438709
I know these feels.

captcha- specializa retcame

my group does specialize in retcons. people switch characters and classes almost every other session, go weeks or months between sessions and everyone has forgotten what happened last time, people don't show to the few sessions we do have etc etc etc

>> No.24441852

>>24438829
>>24441775
didn't want to link i guess

>> No.24441877

>>24438521
The door thing is fucking ridiculous. Apparently the DM NEVER READ THE DMG, since chapter 4 has several pages dedicated to terrain features such as walls and doors and how to break through them. As well as objects.

Not only does it include strength checks to break straight through, but it also includes defenses and base hit points. And a chart to modify hit points based off material.

So yeah. You can blow a door open with your at-will, though it may take a couple of shots if you're low level or it's made out of something durable.

It is in no way a problem with the system if the DM is too pants-on-head retarded to READ THE RULES.

>> No.24442138

>>24438829
>That's the IDEA anyway. Unfortunately, what they give you is Power Swap.
Though the initial multiclass feat can be REALLY good. The power swap feats are pretty stupid, though, and no one is going to paragon multiclass without one hell of a good reason. So 4e multiclassing still sticks to the 'dip' approach that 3e tended to favor.

Had they included (even small) bonuses in the power swap feats, it would be a lot more appealing.

But spending one feat for an additional trained skill, plus an additional feature or implements, can be pretty amazing.

>>24438930
Well, to be fair, there didn't exist a non-fiat way of changing classes completely in early editions -and- most multiclassing had a tendency to make you weaker rather than stronger. Drop a level in wizard? Congrats, you have two first level spells and some cantrips. Drop a level in rogue? You just got a couple of skill points extra and a sneak attack bonus you may not be able to utilize. Drop a level in fighter? Delicious feat and +1 BAB.

Though as a DM, I'm pretty lenient about things the rules don't allow players to change by RAW. Had a player that dumped every point into strength, got disappointed at how easily he was being hit and how low his HP was. I let him adjust his ability scores to have more CON and such.

Had another player who didn't like the class feature she chose at level 1. I let her swap it out for a different one when she gained a level.

I'm also willing to listen to a player if they want to change to a hybrid class or change to an entirely different class. It's never come up, but I'm at least willing to entertain the idea. Though part of this is my love of Final Fantasy IV. Going on a quest to become a Paladin and all that.

>> No.24444347

>>24436574

THE FIRST. ENCOUNTER.

>> No.24445857

Bump

>> No.24447879

I ran M&M 2e. It was an online campaign. For some reason I cannot fathom, I couldn't host the virtual tabletop software. (Tried everything up to and including turning off ALL the firewalls and protection.) So one of the players offered to host for me, seemingly out of the goodness of his heart.

Long story short: He makes a typical super strength brick who dumps Charisma and never puts points in Diplomacy. Then he strong arms me into letting him get through every social encounter, by which I mean any attempt to change someone's opinion or garner a favor with a reasonable chance of failure, by demanding he get his own way or he'll quit.

His behavior quickly escalated to point where he was always stealing the spotlight from other players and insisted EVERYTHING had to be about his character.

I let this continue, because I was a fucking moron. Until he started harassing other players. Specifically, he waits a week over a supposed transgression, not saying anything to anyone, until the middle of the game session... Where in he starts a ton of shit with another player out of the blue.

I tell them both to calm down, sit down and let me try to find a compromise for them. Asshole says, flat out, that either he gets his way or he's quitting. I told him to get the fuck out, so he left and took one of his friends with him.

The campaign still crawled to a reasonable finish, but I've been unable to so much as LOOK at M&M since.

>> No.24449649

>>24437921
>>24437786

>I am know scared as hell to let anyone else DM if its my group of friends

There's nothing worse than a good friend that thinks they're a good DM but isn't. It's one thing if they just have a few bad habits, but some people just fundamentally misunderstand what a DM needs to do.

>> No.24449705

>>24447879
I had an awful MnM GM that set the opening fight aboard an airplane. One of the characters got pushed out of the plane by an NPC and didn't have flight. We were like ... you seriously just killed a PC in the first 10 minutes? I luckily had momentum cancelling teleport, so I dived out, grabbed him, and saved him by teleporting last minute to cancel the fall damage for us both, but shesh.

>> No.24449741

>>24449705
The best part is that, three or four rounds later, some of the enemies tried to "follow" us. I had to point out that we'd been in freefall for a solid 30 seconds and the plane was travelling at hundreds of miles an hour away from us, so unless their move rates are enormous, they weren't catching up.

>> No.24449776

>>24449649

even worse is a passable DM who is the best in the area and for you and though you know they can be better you can't bring yourself to push them lest they quit.

>> No.24449838

>Unknown Armies
>Play a session
And that's all it took!

>> No.24450028

>>24436094
I am currently DMing a Pathfinder game and playing a PC in a Savage Worlds game.

Your GM was right OP. That kind of shit isn't spelled out(not that a good GM shouldn't write that shit on the spot or discuss with PCs their intentions for less conventional game play beforehand to be prepared), The system just isn't flexible enough.

I'm playing in a shit group that has two players that do nothing but OOC and two players that casually role play when the DM initiates it for them with an NPC. That would usually bother me, because I like really heavy story/character driven narratives. But fuck me, I haven't had this much fun playing a PC in 3.X at all(unfortunately, my main, good role playing good is afraid of switching from Pathfinder).

After this campaign is over with, I'll probably never go back to a system like D&D or Pathfinder again.

>> No.24450059

>>24449838

Well, you can't just leave us hanging! What turned you off?

>> No.24450126

>>24436094
>>Sometime afterward, conduction suddenly becomes a thing when it helps our enemies
This actually pisses me off more than the rest of the post.
GM wants to be that way, fine, but be fucking consistent about it.

>> No.24450204

>>24450028
>The system just isn't flexible enough.
Wrong. The system requires a GM, a living, thinking human being who can (hopefully) figure out how the characters should be able to interact with their environment when the rules inevitably fail to take certain actions into consideration.

>> No.24450217

>>24450059
Have you even taken a cursory look at the damn thing?

I'm surprised he got all the way through a session.

>> No.24450331

This shit was just retarded.
>Sitting in a bar eating a huge dinner I scammed the bartender out of
>My druid friend shows up, displeased
>He makes me say sorry to the Bartender
>Suddenly he turns into a Yuan-ti
>More Yuan-ti's sliter into the bar
>I run outside as fast as my kobold legs can take me
>He decides to combat
>He's standing in the middle of the bar
>Casts a spell that turns the entire floor into spikes
>He then tries to run out
>Rolls for it
>Success
>But he'll take three damage
>he was at full health (29 total)
>Suddenly his player thinks this is unacceptable
>For the next ten minutes it turns into a one sided screaming match and everyone else goes home
He's done this twice now

>> No.24450343

>>24450028
OP specified 4e. Speaking of 4e: DMG 1, page 65 lists rules on object HP. Page 66 also states:

>Usually, it doesn’t matter what kind of attack you make against an object: Damage is damage. >However, there are a few exceptions.
>All objects are immune to poison damage, psychic damage, and necrotic damage.
>Objects don’t have a Will defense and are immune to attacks that target Will defense.

And just because powers say 'target: one creature' doesn't mean the power cannot target an object. There are rules for what happens when an object is hit. Even the description of basic attacks use 'target: one creature', yet you can obviously hit a door with an axe. Basic attacks are, in fact, just powers everyone has.

So any DM that says "No, the rules do not specifically let you do that" for something BLATANTLY FUCKING OBVIOUS is a god damn moron that should not be allowed to DM.

>> No.24450352

>>24450204
>The system requires a GM
>>24450028
>not that a good GM shouldn't write that shit on the spot or discuss with PCs their intentions for less conventional game play beforehand to be prepared

What are you even arguing about? The system is not INHERENTLY flexible enough(for my taste).

>> No.24450401

>>24450352
>The book doesn't specifically say something, so the system must be inflexible
>implying anyone who considers what the OP's GM did right should ever run a game

>> No.24450421

>>24450217

Yeah, it's just a spruced up Call of Cthulhu with a wonky setting. This is for extended stories, not drive by mentions, unless Unknown Armies murdered his and your parents? Rifts killed my cousin, so I know the feeling.

>> No.24450435

>>24450343
I was more so referring to the enemies water example, not the door bullshit, which I assumed 4e had rules for, though I am admittedly not that familiar with 4e.

>> No.24450471

>>24450401
>not that a good GM shouldn't write that shit on the spot or discuss with PCs their intentions for less conventional game play beforehand to be prepared
>not that a good GM shouldn't write that shit on the spot or discuss with PCs their intentions for less conventional game play beforehand to be prepared
>not that a good GM shouldn't write that shit on the spot or discuss with PCs their intentions for less conventional game play beforehand to be prepared
>not that a good GM shouldn't write that shit on the spot or discuss with PCs their intentions for less conventional game play beforehand to be prepared

That's an awfully large illiteracy induced rage boner you have there.

>> No.24450475

>>24450204
THIS. I GM a bit in a completely different system, but that's irrelevant. Sometimes you just have to allow the players to ignore a rule or two for the sake of fun.

>> No.24450502

>>24450471
What's inflexible about it?

The guide to it says exactly you can do and gives examples. What more do you want?

>> No.24450511

>>24450343
>>24450435
I probably should have been more specific, and if there are environmental(not object) damage rules like that, feel free to correct me.

>> No.24450549

>>24438107
Indeed, there is only one reason why your cleric doesn't heal party members regularly:
Because she is a drow priestess or Lolth. but even that requires an entirely drow party, or a very very liberal party.

>> No.24450585

>>24442138

> Powerswap feats are stupid.

lol no. A lot of optimized builds powerswap. Archer Rangers usually MC Rogue just to swap for Snap Shot, and lots of striker builds MC Fighter and swap for Rain of Blows and/or Battlefury Stance, or the high level stance that lets you reroll basic attacks. Warlord swaps are very popular with leader builds.

>> No.24450604

I'll go with the short version.
So we're playing Cyberpunk 2020
>Players explicitly state they want to keep the campaign clean and PG-13 at worst
>fat neckbear proceeds to make 11 year old boy who looks like he's suffering from MS for a hacker
>boring friend rolls up a boring businessman
>Self rolls up female ex-cop who's gone private eye
>other player rolls up fixer mechanic who loves machines to an unhealthy degree, to the point of being willing to chip in for anyone getting cybernetics
>Campaign starts up
>neckbear's character turns out to be huge sexual deviant who hits on anything that might possibly have a vagina, even trannies.
>neckbear forces us to go along with him pulling elaborate heist to steal cloning tanks under impression that we'd basically have infinite lives
>neckbear uses tanks to clone physically beautiful female bodies that'd make porn directors ashamed to damage to be used as livestock/manservants basically
>neckbear secretly hires peter pans (gang made entirely of kids) to protect his waifus he cloned from my character's DNA she left around due to hair follicles tend to come loose
>neckbear spends much time trying to get as many female peter pans knocked up as he can
>Rest of players mostly milling about as neckbear gets almost complete control of campaign
>businessman tries to hire opposing hacker to shut down neckbear
>opposing hacker's mind is trapped inside neckbear's rules abuse cyberdeck that functions more or less like The Cube from Hellraiser
>we try hiring hitman to get rid of neckbear
>neckbear's MS body was a RUSE ALL ALONG as he's already cloned himself a super perfect body that has bio augmentations to not only be furry, but have game mechanics power comparable to high end cyberware
>neckbear's new body also has enough skill chips to shoot with more precision than the trickiest shooter to ever live, dodge bullets, and basically be immune to dying by anything short of a tactical nuke
Cont.

>> No.24450618

>>24450421
Well, it's been a while since we tried it, so I don't have it in story form, but I'll see if I can recreate some of our grievances.

The system is basically built on a juvenile approximation of mental trauma, coupled with a rolling mechanic that tips over into failure. You're going to fail, but the book is going to keep telling you about how you can break into the Occult Underground and become some sort of freaky magic-user. Not that you're allowed to know anything about that at first. Oh, and the magic requires you to go insane, alter your character's personality, and hope that the game master picks a school of magic that you want to use. That's right, you don't pick your magic, the game master does. And they also control your access to the magic's resource mechanic.

The game doesn't run well, and--as I said--you're going to fail whenever you need to make a roll. Our GM was the only one who enjoyed using the system at all, and her main reason was that it made it much easier to control what the party was doing and where they were going.

Unknown Armies basically boils down to handing a character concept to the GM and then receiving a script that nominally features that character. Every so often, the GM will ask you to make a roll, note your failure, and tell you how to react.

I suppose it might be fun drunk, competing to see who can die first. But you could just cheat and put "breathing" down as one of your skills. I guarantee you'd die within the first five minutes.

>> No.24450631

>>24450435
My knowledge of 4e rules isn't perfect, so I can't say for certain if it has any specific rules in place... But it does offer rules on handling 'stunts', which essentially boils down to "If a player wants their character to do a cool thing that doesn't break the game or piss off anyone, have them roll and go along with it."

The game, despite having a lot of concrete and formulated rules for combat that might seem rigid, does try to encourage an emphasis on having fun than obsessing over every little rule when you don't have to.

The assumption that 4e is a rigid, emotionless system designed to emulate videogames is false, as there's a lot of wiggle room between the rules for creativity, as well as an attempt to encourage an imaginative mindset for players and DMs alike.

Beyond that, going by the OP's summation:
>Sometime afterward, conduction suddenly becomes a thing when it helps our enemies
The problem is not the game, but rather the fact that OP's DM is an embodiment of all the negative stereotypes of the game given flesh.

The DM is, put simply, terrible, and would likely be terrible with any system.

Common advice for DMs is to say 'Yes, but...' not 'No.'
Common advice is also not to treat players as enemies or have unfair rules, because if a DM wants to kill all the PCs, they can just by saying 'rocks fall.'

tl;dr: The DM was right about the water UNTIL he had the rules contradict themselves solely to favor the enemies. Though the rules don't say a DM can't throw in bonuses or penalties from terrain or weather for damage or the like, the DM is in charge of creating a CONSISTENT world.

>> No.24450652

>>24450618
>The system is basically built on a juvenile approximation of mental trauma
Fucking this. As someone who's been involved with mental health patients, Unknown Armies is just offensively bad about it.

>> No.24450696

>>24450604
>neckbear kills off other three party members and uploads their brains into furry waifu bodies.
>we're all different animals with completely random skills and stats, we've basically rolled up new characters with no player input
>we're sick of neckbear's shit at this point
>we start causing the other waifus to start committing brutal suicides in front of the neckbear
>we film the suicides of the peter pan girls who kill themselves upon learning that they're basically 13 and pregnant and what future they had was completely out of reach
>we sabotage the cloning tanks to start outputting clones with incurable, terminal illnesses that would deform the body in general, as well as some mind-altering ones like Parvovirus
>at this point, our sessions are not running at the same point in time as the sheer amount of hacking neckbear does per session requires the GM basically to run a seperate game on a different day and relay what we've done and he's done to the other group
>We apply enough thermite to his cyberdeck while he's in the net to melt through Fort Knox and a mile below it
>Mechanic who still has mechanic skills triggers the thermite to go off when neckbear jacks out of the net and comes back to reality
>neckbear upon seeing us the following session in person kicks us out of his house for basically burning down his world around him

That's excluding most of the failed plans and some of the shit the neckbear did as side projects. Needless to say, we were done with Cyberpunk 2020 for a good long while.

>> No.24450720

>>24450502
>>24450435
I assume you are still talking about the door, which wasn't my contention.

It's only less flexible than other systems(I don't contend that there's absolutely not flexibility in the system at all, that's just absurd) in the sense that the system is specific without being stimulationist. It labels values to things, but doesn't have an engine. There's no measure for how fast a fire spreads, or how much relative damage enemies take in water, because the sense of physics is entirely at the discretion of the DM.

Systems that are less specific and/or narrative like in nature already don't have this type of problem with a disconnect between "a character shouldn't/should be able to do this because the rules say you can't" and "a character shouldn't/should be able to do this, because I do or don't think a player should".

Or, at least, that's the feeling that I get whilst playing/DMing.

>> No.24450726

>played dnd next
>oiled rope skill shenanigans aside
>any old retard can fling around two weapons like a champ
>barbarians can do that AND cut all damage that they take in half

i know it's a playtest, but it's still way borked,
atlest they tried to make the poor melee guys stronk, but then every successive update was them giving and taking away the power

>> No.24450736

>>24450585
I said 'pretty' stupid, since the point I was going for is that, while they work for some builds, they aren't an 'all in' option for most.

Like in 3e, where a lot of builds can benefit from a couple levels of Fighter or Barbarian, but there aren't as many that evenly split levels.

In 4e, a lot of builds can benefit from picking up an MC feat, but no where near as many can benefit from spending feats on power swaps.

I was speaking in general, not saying "no build ever uses these." They're -stupid- because you give up two limited resources (a feat and a power) to gain one resource (a power.) They aren't -useless-, though, as some can benefit from the trade.

It's just no where near as tempting an offer as the non-power swap feats, which can have several benefits all for the cost of a single feat. More so if a given player isn't digging through books to optimize.

tl;dr: What you're saying is right, but you missed what I was trying to get across.

>> No.24450769

>>24450720
There's nothing less flexible about it. It grants numbers to what most likely is going to happen, and lets you pick up what will happen otherwise.

Why is it less flexible to grant you some numbers?

>> No.24450776

>>24450736

this is why toward the end, they had an unearthed arcana of eh, fuck it, don't need power swap feats.

because honestly, you don't, and just limit the number of powers you can take from your multiclass that why equal to the number of multi-class that class.

>> No.24450783

You know what I LOVE (hate)?

Players who take it upon themselves to sub DM rules with new players, thinking they're being helpful.

>Dming with new player
>New player LIKES to heal, wants to be pro healer, brotier helpful to all ends of the party, I'm delighted
>Rogue splits loot, instead of splitting the change, he rounds it off to an even 10 and keeps the change of 1 gold and X silver and Y copper.
>Says in front of table, new player wants to know how that'd be handled.
>gurglebelly.jpg
>Be right back gents, bathroom break.
>In bathroom, hear them subDM it out, normally not a huge issue as it is very minor and between characters, if they just want to decide storyline for themselves I'm cool with it
>I'mgonnabeawhileugh.png
>Can hear them go over basic bluff vs sense motive, cleric with massive wisdom vs okay rogue charisma. But the outside party in this explains it like it is always straight roll + skill and roll + skill fighting it out.
>I groan a bit.
>Rogue starts getting angry, he knows it isn't the case but doesn't want to start an argument w/o me there, and despite transmission of sound we don't carry conversation through walls as a courtesy.
>This continues on, as new player gets irate that his player wouldn't need the rolls anyways (trying to defuse the tension) as he'd want to count the coins coming and going (as an afterthought).
>I can hear this escalating, I hurry my business.
>Get out there in time for third party to announce "Cleric knows rogue is stealing from us."
>Try to explain to him how believability and delivery of lies have to factor in, modifiers for things.
>Blank look, followed by sulking anger. Rogue is relieved, cleric is upset he lost 4 silver, and third party is mad his subdming had to be redone.
>That'll show me to need to use the bathroom again.

Happened again regarding perception and stealth. Was told how rogue was seen doing something the party forbid him to do, from over 500 yds. No modifiers applied. Stealth vs perception

>> No.24450791

>>24450631
>tl;dr: The DM was right about the water UNTIL he had the rules contradict themselves solely to favor the enemies. Though the rules don't say a DM can't throw in bonuses or penalties from terrain or weather for damage or the like, the DM is in charge of creating a CONSISTENT world.

Agreed. Though, that's my own personal contention with such systems. It's far easier, in my opinion, to lose immersion when you have a problem with a DM's call on how a situation would operate. And, that this happens less often(or, at least, the attitude towards it is different) when the only thing that the DM really has to determine in less rigid systems structured around the narration of events, is how difficult what the player is trying to do would be.

>> No.24450883

>>24450720
...Where as I see it as: The system isn't bogged down by dozens of rules that may not come up, or only come up very rarely (such as how fast a fire spreads, etc.) leaving it up to each group to fill in the details to suit their tastes.

It isn't "a character shouldn't/should be able to do this, because I do or don't think a player should."
It's "Do you want to bother keeping track of how fast the air in the room is consumed by the fire?" "Nope." "Okay then, let's ignore that then."

In my experience as both a player and a DM, I've found (and I'm not saying this is true of everyone) that games with more detailed rules discourage creativity and imagination. Every situation results in someone checking the rulebook to see what can be done by the rules of the system, every single time. Plans become about what is mechanically best instead of what makes the most sense in character.

Where as games with rules that don't govern every possibility leave more for the players to fill in the gaps and think more about the story they want to tell than how best to 'win.'

4e's rules mostly govern combat because combat is what needs the most rules. Everything else is governed by varying levels of guidelines, rather than hard and fast rules. Though combat also has quite a few guidelines as well, outside the strict "roll X or better to hit, roll Y for damage." format.

As I said, I'm not declaring my way better or yours invalid, I'm just sharing my experience on the subject.

>> No.24450913

>VTM
>ST insists we roleplay feeding every session
>use dominate to feed on club/bar goers
>mortal resists dominate
>why?
>makes it too easy, be creative

>> No.24450919

>>24450776
>and just limit the number of powers you can take from your multiclass that why equal to the number of multi-class that class.
I... honestly have no idea what you're trying to say with that sentence. Could you rephrase it?

And I'm not familiar with every detail of 4e, since I lost enthusiasm in the Essentials line pretty fast. Lack of funds plus Heroes of Shadow being a steaming pile of shit (in my opinion) left me... well, disillusioned.

>> No.24450942

>>24450791
As a DM running 3.5e, if my players do something creative that isn't in the book, I reward them for clever thinking and come up with bonuses for the action. It drives me crazy that some DMs will not reward outside-the-box thinking.

>Don't get pissy with my spelling, I'm on my phone.

>> No.24450967

>>24450913

Random mortal can be stronger, but usually because they're special in some way. Might have the startings of true faith of something. Or could be an awakened but untrained mage.

Want the DM to stop it? Go crazy on those mortals. Not like shotgun scene in the bar, but take them home, assume they are to be the next incarnation of christ, and make them the focus of your character.

>TO FIND HIS DESTINY, JOHN APPLESON AND IMMORTAL FRIEND VLAD, AWAY!

And the moment it happens again, add to your retinue.

Or just ensure to kill them all. Most likely hunter or mage based qualities. Nothing you want coming after you and both capable of backtracking your feeding should the worst happen. Cut bait and run when it happens, or kill them. If your ghoul isn't the one going to fetch you bloodbags to suck on, always think of your safety and future.

>> No.24451045

>>24437649
>> The players hanging on to his every word as he describes the flash of colour they glimpse of Ozma's panties when she casts some epic spell.

So, he's running a quest thread?

>> No.24451443

>>24437473

Happened to me once. Party got transported into a facsimile of the past, where we were apparently different people but still remembered who we were, and all attempts to extract information from the old man thanking us for "our sacrifice" he just ignored and kept talking louder and louder.

>> No.24451739

god i hate L5R. Tried playing three times, every time I was basically told my character wasn't weeabo enough, or once, far too weeabo.

Basically I designed a character to gain honor or wherever it was called, the Social Face trait. Anyway the frikkan DM docked me all two of my starting points for bringing my weapons to what was clearly a dangerous site, some river near a border of some sort. Anyway, I asked 'how dangerous?' and he answered 'very'. So I stated that i grab my Kama (i was Mantis) stick them in my boots and follow the prince guy. DM says OK and we move on. Then AFTER we get there and and just as the DM start the Prince's box text he say to me "lose two honor" and immediately attempts to go back to his boxtext.

I WTF.jpeg and interrupt his textwall demanding to know why. He says cause i brought weapons along with me, and as we were invited by the prince-guy it was insulting.

I again WTF and say that doesn't make sense, and then i get a couple of VERY long and adjective filled sentences about how DEEP and HONOR BOUND and (weeaboo words) Rokugan is, and how insulting it is to bring weapon along when 'under the protection of a prince'. I then responded "he invited us on a stroll though a forest where naga are and according to what i understand they arnt necessarily friendly" And then i got a paragraph about how noble teh naga are and i shouldn't expect trouble wen under the MOST exalted presence of, whoever he was, some emperors nephew i think.
then some other player said that two honor was a little extreme (for which the other three players nodded) but he was ignored by teh DM who was in full weeaboo defense mode. When he was done i walked away, Which i found out later disqualified the whole table because they needed 5 PC's to complete the living rokugan adventure and there wasn't anyone to take my place.

>> No.24451789

>>24451739

And from what a bro said later samurai didn't even consider kama 'real' weapons. And my daisho was back at the Inn.

but that was my introduction to L5R. Admittedly it kind of soured me to the whole thing. But I gave it a chance again with a group i'd just met though that same bro. And that didn't go so well either, as i attempted an archer in that one. I found an advancement that let me auto-raise and basically hit a fly's wing at insane distances. So, cool, i thought, the yumi is a proper samurai weapon, i wont even bother with katana skill.

Boy was i wrong.

And it didn't help that this group thought the best idea for any newb was to toss 'em in the deep end.

Long cluster-fuck campaign later, my archer is actually gaining honor, and generally kicking ass with my old bro (the one told me about the kama thing) who was playing a Hedda(?) wrestler, basically someone who could bend armored cavalry onto knots, and did on one occasion. (even once having to interrupt a living campaign to ask the organizer [who was called 'emperor' in-game for some reason] how much a small crane does in damage.[the clan not the bird])

Anyway, there i was having a slightly better time with the game after many sessions without being honorless and suddenly i was challenged by a crane clan chick for some reason-i-forget and so i show up with my trusty bow in hand- and we start the whole thing where-by I then basically kill her before before she can even close the distance, for which i loose (only half of 1.5) honor for using a bow in a knife fight. And now her part of of the crane clan is out for my blood and, being crane, they told on me to teh local dayimo and i then lost the rest of my honor and was told that i could either whip a new character of 'go ronin'. I was pissed, but decided to stick with my archer, because, awesome. I then commence to mow down every death attempt thrown at me (including NINJAS) and loose even more honor (i think i was in negatives)

TBC

>> No.24451809

>>24451789
now im getting really annoyed because i basically have no way out of this, our party face being a crane and forbidden to help in any way, i basically ask who put the mark on my head, i get a name Daimyo some-weeaboo or such, and then say my goodby to my party and head off.

I get a 1on1 with the DM in which i simply camp outside Daimyo some-weeaboo's fortress of DM doesn't-want-you-getting-in-here and wait for three weeks. the man in question shows his face; I then put an arrow carved from a tree (the one i was sitting in) that only Daimyo some-weeaboo's family was supposed to take branches from. I raise the fuck out of teh roll and he drops dead. Then his remaining child yells VENGEANCE WILL B- I interrupted him with an arrow in the head, again killing him and leaving no heirs. NONE. (The crane must not believe in sex with their own wives.)

So, i was feeling pretty good now, after having then suck out of Daimyo some-weeaboo's territory with none the wiser (i posed as an undertaker; desperate times and all that), with no one to pay the price on my head, and the official compliant against me now without a backer, I could regain my honor.

But it was not to so. Despite me being to far away, and no-one seeing me, some super-scoobydoo imperial investigator somehow put three and six together and got 18, despite my loyal party members saying no, i was in the mountains the whole time at a dragon clan thing, and there literally being no witnesses, i was imperially sanctioned and now outcast forever.

TBC

>> No.24451845

>>24451809
Now at this point i was officially RAEGWTFing, and getting mad OC, and the other players reveal their little initiation; the new guy always get's pushed into being a ronin, seems its good for character building. Some heated words later, the DM also reveals that i was the first one to think of a way out of roninism so soon, which was bad, because i guess there wouldn't be enough CHARACTERSON.


At this point BRO is getting annoyed on my behalf, and said that if ATH thought of a way out then you should give it to him and get on with it. To which teh DM goes 'but then we'd loose the whole ronin arc of the campaign." to wit; BRO goes, "THEN ROLL WITH IT, THAT'S YOUR JOB YOU LAZY BASTARD!" (did i mention BRO had some anger issues?)

`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`-`

And that is the second reason I dislike L5R; even when im having fun, the type of player it tends to attract are anal-retentive.

>> No.24451871

>>24450967
Oh god. Now I'm thinking of Pokemon meets OldWoD
>GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL!
>AT LEAST BEFORE THE WYRM EATS 'EM ALL!

>> No.24451888

>>24436258
Mighty sensitive are we? Can't stand the idea of someone having a bad experience, can we?

>> No.24451901

>>24436300
This.

>> No.24451917

>>24436818
Burn down my ghost house? Sure! Oh, by the way, since you got rid of our home, now we haunt you! Your sorcerer can't sleep. Ever. Never sleeping again Sorcerer.

What? You thought the house mattered? Of course the house doesn't matter Sorcerer. The House never mattered. It's not like we were using it to retain our hold on this earth. It's not like we had things, that we wanted to do, SORCERER! But no, the house is gone, that's fine. We'll stay with you, in you. Forever.

You friends are staring at you Sorcerer. They're wondering why you twitch like that. Why are you twitching sorcerer? You Never Stop Sorcerer. Why don't you get some sleep Sorcerer? Ever?
That is what I would have done, were I that DM.

>> No.24451925

>>24450919
>in my opinion

No you're right about that. The only good Essentials book was Heroes of the Feywild.

>> No.24451947

>>24451917

Heh in a pathfinder module haunted house, I had a player proceed to bash anything haunted since he is ALL COMBAT ONLY COMBAT with all of his characters. Roleplaying is usually a stretch.

When they began fighting back and he had no means of hitting them, he called foul play on me and caused a 2 night hissy fit.

Nevermind the fact, that his character showed up to the house late and the other party members had established communication and knew the spirits were trying to warn them of ill tidings. No no, it was my fault when the spirits began kicking his ass and didn't have the Zelda golden chest with the item needed to fight them anywhere in the house.

Also let him stop many times. Only logical response? Enemy lets down their guard, attack again!

>> No.24452043

>>24451947
Well, fuck that guy then.

>> No.24452062

>>24451947

Foxglove manor, eh? Hopefully you told him that the manor not taking kindly to bullshit IS IN THE FUCKING RULES?

>> No.24452071

I'm going to share this story every chance I get
Worst part is it's only partially related.

My GM has wrecked a good game of D&D by introducing a group of DMPC's that were imported from werewolves the appocalypse.

I don't know what to blame, D&D, WoD or my DM

>> No.24452078

>>24452071

Then you are a retard. Your DM, obviously.

>> No.24452292

>>24451917
>tfw I keep doing these in the hope someone will screencap them and use them later.

>tfw I want /tg/ internet fame

>tfw pathetic.

And back to hide in anonymity I go!

>> No.24452358

>>24452062
Oh yes. I did.

At first he said he didn't need to see, but by the end he practically grabbed the book from my hands. He tried to fight EVERYTHING, and I'd let him run outside to 'reset' it, though he had to run all the way outside to reset... the one in the attic (trying to keep spoilers clean), and then that one remembered him when he came back in.

He'll tirade about how 'haunts are bullshit' and my crap with the house while the rest of the players hated him for ruining a good atmosphere of horror we had going.

Course, had one point as he doesn't use maps for his character, so we only verbally convey messages and i'll draw first person similes to show him his door choices, and he ended up at one point running into multiple rooms making multiple baddies come after him or scare him out.

I jokingly told him I was about to make all of the doorways into ring gates and start playing some catchy old pop music, as he went door to door, chasing or being chased by the ghoulies. He didn't get it, though the others did. Was quite fun. (Additional fun was when we realized we had a bookie female char, an easy going ranger with a wolf pet, a male bard who wore an ascott (varisian bladed scarf), and a female sorceress self proclaimed to be 'the hot kind of charisma' and not too bright)

>> No.24455586

>>24452358
>mfw I just realized that makes this guy Scrappy

>> No.24455856

>>24439033
Even 1st edition, aka grognard central, has the rule in the dmg that says that electric attacks directed at water expand from that point with radius equal to the remaining total range affecting everyone caught with normal damage.

(so a 60ft range lightning bolt, hitting a water body 20ft away creates a 40ft radius AOE with no damage loss)

>> No.24455886

>start playing 3.5 with friends
>one friend is always dm
>along with being always dm he is a that dm
>has his dmpc's be the main characters
>we get into fight with bbeg
>he knocks us all out except dmpc
>dmpc kills bbeg
>bbeg has clones though so he never really dies...

This goes on for the whole time we let him dm...and since no one else wanted to dm it just went on till everyone stopped being his friend.

this was in 3.5 but it didn't throw me off the system I actually enjoyed the system and bought pathfinder when it came out.

>> No.24455930

>>24452358
Fuck every thing about foxglove manner.

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