How close is science to discovering a cure for schizophrenia? 51 million people have this. That's the population of some countries. I can't live like this much longer.

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Anonymous Tue Mar 24 21:45:56 2015 No.7151761 [Reply] [Original]

How close is science to discovering a cure for schizophrenia?

51 million people have this. That's the population of some countries.

I can't live like this much longer.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 21:49:52 2015 No.7151764 >>7151761 I'm sorry for you man. I hope you'll be okay

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 21:57:32 2015 No.7151771

>>7151764
The worst part is you can't hide it effectively. People know. And they automatically reject you because of it. The stigma is worse than the actual disease. I can handle being psychotic. I can't handle being single and lonely and unemployed. People used to really like me before I got sick, too. And now I have to pop these pills that knock me out and make me fat and will eventually make me constantly and permanently shake all over. Why isn't science on this?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:26:39 2015 No.7151808 >>7151771 I wish I could help, brother I hope this music can somewhat soothe your pain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ3gghJxKH0 It's not very reassuring but I understand your pain, even if not in the same way. You're not alone.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:29:24 2015 No.7151810 This is a project I want to work on. Hopefully I get to Medschool first

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:32:43 2015 No.7151816 Apparently shrooms can cure depression. I wonder what would happen to a schizophrenic.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:35:18 2015 No.7151818

>>7151761
It's my goal to help you and me. You seem to definitely have it worse than I, but that doesn't mean I am only going to remedy just symptoms like many before us have. I'm already on my way doing Neuro-pharmaceutical research, and I'm hoping to continue my studies in both biochemistry and psychology to the point of having a PhD in at least one. If I can't do it, hopefully someone much smarter than I can, for too many people live with schizophrenia and limited pharmaceutical help, the little there is dealing only with superficial symptoms. Good luck till someone makes a breakthrough

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:39:18 2015 No.7151822 >>7151771 as someone dealing with bipolar I feel you. Shit sucks.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:43:11 2015 No.7151826 >>7151771 Hang in there, man. I'm the opposite with the psychosis being agonizing abd the social stigma being whatever. Either side of the spectrum sucks, and hopefully one day soon both the stigma abd psychosis will be gone

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:45:41 2015 No.7151831 At least you're not blind like I am.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:45:49 2015 No.7151832 >>7151822 Is your primary issue depression, or mania?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:48:44 2015 No.7151839 >>7151831 I'd rather be blind than mentally ill. Unless the blindness caused mental illness, then I'd rather just be mentally ill.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:49:19 2015 No.7151840

>>7151832
At first I was someone typical of having bipolar 2; mostly depression. I never had a manic episode, but I've still been diagnosed as bipolar 1 because of how bad my paranoia symptoms are. So now I mostly get mixed states, which sucks more than depression imo. I'm currently on anti-psychotic meds so I don't really get anything, I'm kind of like a person who is always like 'meh'.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:50:46 2015 No.7151842 >>7151840 Ah, yes, anhedonia, pretty boring; the downside is it never ends.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:53:32 2015 No.7151846 >>7151842 meh what can you do

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 22:56:41 2015 No.7151851

>>7151761

Science is a long way off OP, especially for treating the negative symptoms, which are usually the most devastating.

The best quality of life improvement in the near future is going to be better education, awareness, and exposure of these kinds of conditions to the public. Kind of like what has happened with depression in recent years.

People in developing countries seem to fare much better with schizophrenia, with low rates of suicide and more functional integration into social and working roles, so attitudes in these places can be used as a kind of model for us.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:04:16 2015 No.7151857

Science seems pretty far off from even figuring out what schizophrenia is, like, how many unrelated causes there are that have somewhat similar conditions.

I don't think the psychiatric approach is genuinely scientific. They pretend to understand things better than they do. They diagnose on subjective symptoms alone, and treat based on that weaksauce diagnosis.

It's like they saw people, some of whom had fevers, and diagnosed them all with "feverism" based on holding a hand to their foreheads (sometimes, just barely touching the forehead, because they were sure they would find feverism anyway) and asking them whether they felt hot (sometimes disregarding the answer, because people with feverism can be unreliable), and then had an argument about whether feverism should be treated with cold baths, drugs that lower body temperature, or antibiotics, and did statistical studies on the questionable results, concluding for the most part that anyone with feverism should be kept on drugs that lower body temperature for life (after the companies that produced these drugs paid for the most research), and any refusal to do so should be considered evidence of fever delirium and reason to force treatment.

That's about as close to real scientific medicine as psychiatry gets. The bluff that they are the relevent experts and that they understand these things prevents real scientists from stepping up and doing things properly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:08:14 2015 No.7151861 What's is like having schizophrenia? What do you have to deal with every day?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:08:31 2015 No.7151863 >>7151857 who are the "real scientists" in your opinion? people studying neurodevelopment? neuroscientists / psychologists?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:10:00 2015 No.7151864 >>7151851 >People in developing countries seem to fare much better with schizophrenia Less psychiatrists. Less meds. More people just applying common sense and helping each other through hard times.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:12:47 2015 No.7151866 Fellow schizophrenic here. Take your pills, dude. And if your pills don't work try different pills.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:13:03 2015 No.7151867 >>7151864 Totally agree. I personally think less meds has a lot to do with it, and also being able to escape the "schizo" label which seems to really haunt people.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:15:23 2015 No.7151869

>>7151863
There are probably some psychiatrists doing real science, but they're lost in the noise and buried under the pseudoscience.

The real scientists are the ones doing real science, regardless of what they call themselves. They're not pretending to understand what they don't. They're being realistic about how mysterious this still is, and working from the bottom up, not blustering about how they're the experts and know what meds people should take.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:20:21 2015 No.7151883

>>7151861
I think it varies from person to person.
For me, before I found a good medication, I was hearing voices every moment that I was awake. It was like having two or three people in your head that never shut up, always talking to you or talking to each other about what you're doing.
On top of that I was always having dejavu and strange delusions.
For instance I could watch a film about the military and suddenly I'd be "remembering" things that had happened to me that mirrored the film.
I also found myself believing in bizarre things, like that my cat had been killed and was replaced with an identical cat by the people who were speaking inside my head.
It's pretty horrible because even though you know you're crazy and the shit you're believing is insane, you still can't unbelieve it, it just feels too real.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:26:05 2015 No.7151901 >>7151883 do you think ocd is related? believing things "need" to be ordered certain way seems so

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:28:48 2015 No.7151911 >>7151901 I'm an organised person who has in the past had some OCD like habits, but I don't think I have it.

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:32:39 2015 No.7151925

>>7151866
>Take your pills, dude.
>And if your pills don't work try different pills.
Here's the thing: you hear these stories people tell, that they tried this medication, and that medication, and it took months or years, but eventually they got it right, and it changed everything, and they were better.

...and then you hear other people's stories, that they suffered for month or years without treatment before it got better.

...and you hear from people of either group that they stayed better after that, and you hear from people of either group that it got worse again.

It's a lot like what you hear from people who go to homeopaths and other quacks. Studies have increasingly shown that a maintenance dose of antipsychotics works primarily by placebo effect, as the placebo controls have gotten more sophisticated (choosing placebos with convincing side-effects, instead of giving a sugar pill as a placebo for a drug that causes headaches and diarrhea or whatever), and antidepressants work the same way.

If you're having a severe episode, then sure, there are drugs that can smother your initiative and keep you out of trouble.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:42:57 2015 No.7151955 >>7151925 Don't forget to mention that psychiatry was invented by the nazis and that all mental illness is actually caused by thetans and a lack of discipline. Nutcase

Anonymous Tue Mar 24 23:54:48 2015 No.7151974

>>7151925
I think one of the things that helps schizophrenics in developing countries is that they haven't automated away so much of the labor.

Even if you're not considered especially reliable, you can still go pull weeds or gather firewood or haul water or sweep a floor or whatever, and it helps other people, and they value it, and you get some exercise, and you have something to focus on that you can handle.

People need to have something to do, or they go crazy. Diagnose a man with schizophrenia and send him home on disability and have him just sit alone with nothing to do but kill time and watch himself grow old, then of course he's going to go nuts. Anyone does under those conditions.

I think there needs to be more non-profit organizations to provide work for people even when it's not economical, and legal support for exceptions to the minimum wage law, so you can be on disability, and get paid $5/hour or even $2/hour or whatever just doing something simple and useful, and nobody's going to fire you, and nobody's going to be on your ass about being late or not making it to work on bad days, and you get some extra pocket money and you get some exercise.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:04:19 2015 No.7151998

>>7151955
If you look seriously at the studies done on the effectiveness of these drugs, it's pretty grim.

After the drug-company-funded studies to get approval, the later studies tend to show poorer and poorer effectiveness, stronger placebo effects and weaker drug effects, until the difference is negligible. And don't think that psychiatrists don't hesitate to publish results that might discourage patients from taking their meds (even when evidence is in front of them that the meds don't work). They still do the Millikan oil drop thing all the time, where they bias toward agreement with previous experiments, and therefore show only gradual drift of results toward truth.

This "take your meds!" meme and the one about "if you don't believe in the reliability of psychiatric diagnoses and treatments, that means you're crazy!" are terribly irrational and harmful. People just want to believe that we, as a society, have got this shit handled, regardless of all the evidence showing that we don't, that this is all still a terrifying mystery that we're nearly helpless against.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:28:52 2015 No.7152065 >>7151761 The "cure" is to blow your brains out with a shotgun. Either that or lobotomize the part of the brain that is causing the insane behavior.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:42:21 2015 No.7152113 >>7151857 This reads so right to me. Fuck I am glad someone else shares my opinion.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 00:44:33 2015 No.7152121 >>7152113 That makes at least three of us. and i'd bet there's thousands more

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:02:49 2015 No.7152150

>>7151883

Probably the best description I have heard of this malady.

I am sitting here trying to imaginewhat it would be like to go through life believing things as being real, yet understanding that they are not.. Going to work, dealing with co-workers, getting groceries, usual hum drum shit. Then someone comes up to me and tells me that actually I'm nuts, that these people out there are not really co-workers, friends, or people in the supermaket. That I am actually in a hospital and I am being treated for a mental condition. That this is the true reality. And the next day I wake up and go to work and it really feels like im going to work, and that the grocery list is real, and the guy driving past me looks really like some other guy driving around, and yet I am told that I am just delusional and choose to intrepret my environment in this manner.

I imagine that is what it would be like. And I really dont want to imgaine it too deeply becasue I find that to be very scary, becasue I can get a hint of how easy it would be to slip into this state.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:10:00 2015 No.7152163
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OP, I'm gonna tell you a little tale that most here won't beleive, but it fucking worked for me.

>diagnosed schizophrenic in college after a mental break (extremely shitty living situation) and because my great uncle was diagnosed with it back in the day
>took pills for a while, they say they are supposed to help but I don't feel normal at all
>getting fat, lazy, totally mind numbing, I'm an artist and my creativity was broken
>decide that this is fucked
>slowly am able to wean myself back into smoking weed (CAUTION: this is very very iffy, but can be done right)
>read up on esoterics and continue to study them to this day
>at the same time, try and stop taking the pills by slowly weaning myself off of them. I attempt this several times over the course of a few years, but get caught and am literally forced to go back on them despite feeling fine without them
>finally at some point am able to take shrooms again without any negative feelings during the trip, can smoke weed as much as I please (with moderation)
>have been off the pills for a long time without telling anyone, finally after a few visits to my therapist and him saying each time "this is the best I've ever seen you" I drop it on him I hadn't been taking my meds for about 4 months
>he agrees that I must not need them
>present day: fit as a fiddle, no meds needed or taken, but I now realize how much psychiatry is fucked.

>"The schizophrenic drowns where the mystic swims"

That's my basic point here. Schizophrenia is not real, I think what helped me the most is that I never accepted that I had a "mental illness". I knew that the concepts I wrote in and drew in my sketchbook were just over the head of the psychiatrist when I showed her.

Don't even get me started on the Brave New World of Big Pharma.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:19:37 2015 No.7152171 >>7152163 For good measure OP watch all of these documentaries. >>15940740

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:21:24 2015 No.7152172

>>7151761

As a biologist I have nothing more than contempt for psychiatrists. The fact that people take these quacks seriously simply astonishes me.

Perhaps I should not be so harsh. But to dump cocktails of chemicles into people's bodies and believe they are practicing anything other than a psuedo science beggars my belief.I would attibute the same degree of scientific crediabilty to their efforts as I would for the medieval healers who used leeches to "bleed" and drilled holes into their patient's skulls to allow the demons to escape.

Yup, I am sure we will learn something from their efforts, but I wish they would accept their trial and error methodology as being just that.

I find it disturbing that the field of biological science seems to ignore the topic of mental disease. We shunt it off to the side to let other people worry about.This is a shame. Personally I find the topic od interest, for me the questions arise as to simple things. What survival value does this have, and if none, if detrimental to survival ( as one would assume in earlier ages of mankind) then why has it not been bred out over the millions of years since our evolution?

I know some of the answers.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:27:04 2015 No.7152181

>>7152172
>What survival value does this have, and if none, if detrimental to survival ( as one would assume in earlier ages of mankind) then why has it not been bred out over the millions of years since our evolution?
Because it presents itself when you're about 20 or older.
For most of our history we've been popping out children when we were 14, too early for the schizophrenia to have affected us.

That's like saying "what evolutionary benefit does dementia serve?"

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:29:48 2015 No.7152186

>>7151761
>How close is science to discovering a cure for schizophrenia?

Ironically schizos generally do way better in the 3rd world and the content of their hallucinations isn't malignant.
http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/Suppl_4/S213.full

So really you shouldn't be asking about a scientific cure for schizophrenia, but rather how science has contributed to the pathologization of your particular state

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:29:48 2015 No.7152187

>>7151883

Genuinally curious here. These voices in your head. Can you tell us more?

Did these just suddenly start one day and you were like wtf? Or were these voices always with you, as from childhood?

Are these voices you? I mean is it like these voices are different aspects of yourself that you can recognise as such?. Is it you that you hear speaking inside your head? Or are these voices of completely different people, as in strangers? How do they sound? Do they have a personality, even an accent or tone of their own?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:33:40 2015 No.7152192 >>7151761 btw the guy who painted those cats wasn't actually schizophrenic

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:39:40 2015 No.7152199

>>7152163
Yeah....therapy....All except for one of the therapists I've ever met with because I was having "problems" wanted to diagnose me with something (I mean, it's sort of their job). I'm an extremely secretive person, so for the past 7 years, I've been hiding my schizo symptoms as best I could. When I have had to "talk to Drs." because someone was "concerned" I never really told them what was going on, so I've been diagnosed with bipolar II, depression, and one therapist thought I was a sociopath (that was a fun interview). Anyways...one thing that's really helped me is to realize that all my delusional thinking comes from my mind. My ideas about who I am and my identity (thought never well formed) also come from my mind. I've learned to let go of a lot of stuff that enters my thought-shpere. ideally, I can let go of all of it and just breathe. Meditation practice really helps with that. Zen Buddhism has actually been extremely helpful with keeping me out of the watchful eye of white coats.

TLDR: Beware psychiatrists. Meditate.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:40:47 2015 No.7152203 >hear voices >I wonder what could cause these >they are inside my head >maybe my brain is making these voices >i hear my own voice in my head thinking thoughts I think schizo not even once

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:41:56 2015 No.7152205

>>7152181

Even if it does not strike until the 20's then it wouild still apply selective pressure on a population. If it were truely detrimental then those with the condition would be obviously produce less children and be less capable of caring for them.

My take is that this condition does have survival value.

As you have stated elsewhere, it is our modern perception in western nations that this is a disease. I do not think this is necessarily the case.

It is the extent of the manifestation I think we all have this condition to some extent, just some more so than others. It is those unfortunate to have an extreme manifestation of what is generally a valuable survival attribute ( and thus carried on genetically) that we now labled as mentally diseased. This view does not discount the environmental factors that may accent the condition.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:42:25 2015 No.7152207

>>7152172
>What survival value does this have, and if none, if detrimental to survival ( as one would assume in earlier ages of mankind) then why has it not been bred out over the millions of years since our evolution?

WTF? What about myopia, diabetes, acne, and all the other stuff most modern humans would like to have disappeared through evolution?

>As a biologist I have nothing more than contempt for psychiatrists.
>To dump cocktails of chemicles into people's bodies and believe they are practicing anything other than a pseudo science beggars my belief.

Also, while psychiatry is a lot less refined than other sciences, don't hate juste because it is. We know pretty much nothing about the human psyche, it's not like we can model it through equations.
Electroconvulsive therapy seemed barbaric as fuck to me, but you should see how mentally ill people suffer. Honestly, please go to a mental hospital where they treat the "bad" cases. It's fucking awful. Part of you wants them dead, just to end their suffering.

Also, your attitude towards "dumping chemicals" is a pseudo-science is unwarranted. Paracetamol has been used for decades, known for more than a century, and yet we still don't know how it works. Should we stop using it?

>Perhaps I should not be so harsh
Yeah, perhaps. I'm an aerospace engineer, and I believe in "true" science. Yet what we do in wind tunnels is "trial and error methodology".
We're slowly switching to more and more accurate models in computerized fluid dynamics, because we have a solid base of equations, and powerful-enough computers. But CFD is very young.

By all means, please provide psychiatrist a solid base of equations and adequate computers to model the human psyche, and its response to drugs.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:43:44 2015 No.7152210 File: 29 KB, 560x426, 28234992342.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7152163 No, we wouldn't want to get you started on anything. Nope.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:45:11 2015 No.7152211

>>7152172
>>7152181
Or, what evolutionary benefit do random mutations have? Surely, since they're harmful most of the time, strong anti-mutation safeguards should be selected for.

Schizophrenics and manic-depressives do things that other people wouldn't. And other people can watch them and see what happens.

Maybe the mechanism is more useful in less intelligent animals, certainly it would be more useful in more isolated and conservative societies, which can't support or haven't developed the cultural idea of a creative class. Maybe we're looking at an individually-disadvantageous, collectively-beneficial mechanism out of its proper context.

How much of our culture has its roots in madness, even where these developments have obsoleted the contributions of the mad? Were the practices of storytelling and invention taught to use by the mad?

Then there's the thing where half a trait is beneficial, but the whole thing is too much. Like sickle cell anemia or hereditary hemochromatosis. Is manic-depression just the creative cycle overdriven? Is schizophrenia just a willingness to explore wild ideas extended until its sufferers are lost in the wilderness?

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:53:06 2015 No.7152225

>>7152187
I heard them a little bit before it became serious, but I didn't think too much of it. It just seemed like I was having weird thoughts or remembering something.
Besides, they weren't talking to me, it was more like somebody was watching me on TV and talking to his friend about it.

Then one night it turned from hearing voices say the occasional thing to each other to hearing them talk to _me_.
That freaked me out a lot, I almost tried to leave the country when that happened.
After that I started hearing voices constantly and even started talking back, initially outloud, but thankfully I kicked that habit when I realised they were hearing my thoughts not hearing my sounds (which was really terrifying, I put so much effort into controlling my thoughts and not thinking embarrassing or bad things).

I never really heard the voices with my ears, I heard them in my brain.
It was as if thoughts were being injected into my brain by somebody else.

At the height of my psychosis every voice had its own name and distinct personality.
The more I conversed with them the stronger and more distinct they became.
Most of them were strangers that I eventually got to know well, others were people I knew from real life that had joined the conspiracy against me.
Most of them had different sounding voices, just like people do in real life.

After going through all that I find it shocking that some people on /x/ actually want to subject themselves to voices by creating "tulpas".

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:54:49 2015 No.7152229

>>7152207

I am not going to argue thiose points about myopia diabetes etc. They are different topics and a rebuttal based on evolutionary genetics would take more time and effort than is warranted. You are an aerospace engineer? Fine. As a Biologist I do not dare to question your expertise in that field.

As I said I am sure we will learn some interesting thing from the efforts of psychiatry. But my disdain for them comes from their arrogance and conciet. They should simply man up and admit that they dont know what the fuck they are doing, while the rest of us accept the fact that doing anything is still a lot better than doing nothing.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 01:57:11 2015 No.7152233

>>7152229
>doing anything is still a lot better than doing nothing.
Is it, though?

Is it better to do harm than no harm? And what about the cases where psychiatrists have snatched people up on a misunderstanding?

Are you familiar with the Rosenhan experiment?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 03:22:33 2015 No.7152320

>>7151857
underrated opinion/post

People give a lot of credence to psychiatry over other methods these days when psychiatry still labels the genesis of mental disorders as "in the brain somewhere.... we don't know where though" It's still a non-answer. While I don't doubt the brain as being the physical seat of cognition and a place to investigate for details, it's not as figured out as people believe.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 04:30:01 2015 No.7152361 >>7152211 obvious troll, 0/10 apply yourself

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 04:41:55 2015 No.7152364

>>7152163
uhm anon, that's bad. Please, watch yourself. My father was paranoid schizophrenic, I do have some experience in this. He too stopped taking his meds, and it was fine for a while, he didn't show any outward symptoms for a couple of years. But then it came back. And baaaaad. really bad.
We had to leave the house with my mother because he was convinced she was conspiring against him. It was just a question time when he would snap and kill her And I cannot tell you how much it killed me leaving, because I loved him more than anything else in this world, and it hurt so much seeing him like that, without being able to help.
Although, even in his madness, he was trying to be a good father. I'm not sure what went on in his head,but he was always defending me even from his own delusions. Through sheer will he redirected all that hatred to others. He would never have hurt me.
After a month they took him to the psychiatry and he was treated. Not sure how. It was really rocky for a while at home. Eventually I think he convinced himself that it was all a delusion. But it did came back twice even with the meds. He died last year. I try to remember him as a loving father and not the madman who chased us away. I really hope they find a cure for this disease.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 04:49:22 2015 No.7152367

>>7152364
I'm sorry to hear that, but, did your father meditate, study esoterics and gnostics, as well as the sciences, and use entheogens? I would only recommend not taking the meds if you do these things, because this is what shamans do. Shamans are what people used to call "schizophrenics". If you are in tune with Nature and the All, the symptoms of "schizophrenia" cannot touch you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 04:49:25 2015 No.7152368 Have you considered trying psychedelics? Serious question.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:00:48 2015 No.7152468 >>7152367 Rage/10. Fucking moronic hippy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:39:09 2015 No.7152503 File: 18 KB, 350x416, Mitchellhenderson.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7152468 Am schizo, can confirm to be True. I did almost an hero but fortunately am still living, tho it is a rollercoaster at times.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 07:49:59 2015 No.7152511 >>7152364 HE SHOULD"VE TAKEN SHROOMS HE WOULD"VE BEEN FINE DON"T BELIEVE THE HYPE MOTHER NATURE LOVES YOU

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 08:08:10 2015 No.7152520

>>7151851
>>7152186
>People in developing countries seem to fare much better with schizophrenia
>do way better in the 3rd world and the content of their hallucinations isn't malignant.
Literally /x/ shit pushed by the same crowd of retards who consider yoga and other spiritual exercises appropriate treatment strategies. Once you control for premature death, losing track of patients, and their biased patient selection procedures, these 'differences' disappear.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 08:13:58 2015 No.7152524 >>7151771 >I can't handle being single kek

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 08:30:28 2015 No.7152538

>>7152511
Shamens have been dealing with schizophrenia for millions of years by meditating and giving in to their delusions, not even trying to resist.
This is 100% true.
Medications are only a placebo effect.
Take shrooms and howl at the moon at 4am if you want to be cured.
Only scientific solution

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 08:36:00 2015 No.7152541

This thread got me depressed.
I'm not a schizo but my mother is.
It started when i was five, and from the little memory I have of her before that and the few testimony I have collected, she was an entirely different person.

I kinda wish I could have known the "real" her.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 08:59:57 2015 No.7152562 >>7152538 And then anon went amok and killed a boyscout camp because he thought they were evil goblins

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 09:04:23 2015 No.7152567

>>7152562
No he actually did it because he didn't meditate enough or pray to the tree spirits enough.
Nature gave you a special super power, schizophrenia, it's just modern society that prevents you from using it because they're afraid of the power of ancient shamans.
Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm a biologist.
Psychiatrics only want to hurt you because big pharma pays them to give you spiritual cancer to suppress your shaman abilities with medications that don't even work because they're a placebo filled with chemicals that are designed to kill you

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 09:08:00 2015 No.7152572 >>7152567 Oh I know that. And you know that I know that too, because this thread is just a figment of your twisted mind. Wash your dishes already.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:04:30 2015 No.7152630

When in bed, either about to sleep or just woken up, I can hear (and almost see) lots of people around me talking. It will happen for a few minutes until I fall sleep or wake up completely.

I also have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailment_%28thought_disorder%29

Is there anything I can do to ensure these things don't get worse?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:11:13 2015 No.7152637 The cure is sterilization.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:11:28 2015 No.7152638

>>7152630
there are no guarantees of anything
try weed, indica first, sativa if no help, take aspirin once in a while to see if that makes any difference. Don't drink alcohol, don't take heroin, LSD, or meth.
Find something physical and repetitive to use for a focus, like martial arts
also, find a place to sleep where there aren't a ton of people running around and stay away from the internet - stop posting here

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:13:21 2015 No.7152640 >>7151826 sorry but what the hell is ABD? not in with the lingo here trying to understand what the opposite side of this spectrum is

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:14:05 2015 No.7152643 >>7152638 You're aware that marijuana and hallucinogens can cause a person susceptible to schizophrenia to have their first psychotic break, right?

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:14:58 2015 No.7152645

>>7152638
>try weed, indica first, sativa if no help
Go fuck yourself.
A friend of mine developed schizophrenia induced after smoking weed for the first time.
There is growing evidence that cannabis use is a cause of schizophrenia.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/278736.php

You junkies should just shut the fuck up already.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:15:01 2015 No.7152646 >>7151771 Don't you take medication?

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:24:35 2015 No.7152659

>>7151857
Before scientists, psychiatrists are doctors. Their primary concern is to ease symptoms. I don't think there are that many doctors that claim they know everything about the disease. There's always room to know more. That's why doctors go on conventions and such.

It's unfair to say that psychiatry is a pseudoscience when the field is trying so hard to do research while juggling healing patients with the latest available clinically verified treatments. As you know, it takes a very long time before treatments are given to all patients. The various developments in cancer treatment haven't gone mainstream yet in medicine, for example.

My two cents, at least.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:25:46 2015 No.7152660 >>7152638 Hi, me again. I forgot to mention, hitting your dick with a hammer also works.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:29:41 2015 No.7152665 >>7152367 AHAHAHAHAH LOL

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:38:38 2015 No.7152676 >>7152645 >weed >junkie 0/10

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:57:20 2015 No.7152702

>>7152645
You don't seem to have read the article, instead taking the title and warping it beyond recognition.

I claim that those genetically predisposed to psychosis will perhaps have their first psychotic break from cannabis use. This article claims that those who are genetically predisposed to psychosis are also predisposed to trying cannabis, which is an odd claim.

I suffer a small amount of permanent depersonalization since the first time I got stoned. I often hear the same from people who, like me, tried cannabis and never liked it. DP/DR disorder seems to be a much more prevalent mental issue stemming from the use of cannabis than psychosis/schizophrenia is.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 10:59:48 2015 No.7152706

>>7152659
>the latest available clinically verified treatments
The problem is that the "clinical verification" is shit.

About five seconds of rational thought is all you need to realize that there's no way to do a placebo-controlled or blind trial of a psychoactive drug, beyond verifying that yes, it's psychoactive.

Every psychiatric drug study purporting to be placebo-controlled or blinded is a sham, pure cargo-cultism. They mimic the superficial form of placebo-controlled, double-blind trials, when it's obvious that there can be no substance to these actions.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:01:15 2015 No.7152710 >>7152706 >there's no way to do a placebo-controlled or blind trial of a psychoactive drug u fukin wot

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:03:48 2015 No.7152716 >>7152706 About five seconds of rational thought is all you need to realize that there's no way you didn't drop out of high school.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:06:42 2015 No.7152721

>>7152645
the only problem with weed is that you can get disconnected thoughts that have no reason to have arisen and this can be scary and strange if you aren't looking for that kind of escapism/distraction.
Anyone who takes a drug without knowing what to expect is at risk for a severe reaction simply from unexpected symptoms arising they aren't ready to handle.
Your friend is bullshit. You must like being a dumbass or just another bullshitter. so what?
No one is making you rub weed on your dick so go fuck yourself. Who cares what you think?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:10:33 2015 No.7152727 >>7152702 Total fucking bullshit. You did more than just weed, admit it.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:19:13 2015 No.7152742

>>7152710
Quote the whole thing:
>beyond verifying that yes, it's psychoactive.

The meaning of a placebo is to eliminate the role of the subject's mind in the response to the treatment. By their nature, psychoactive drugs affect the subject's mind. It strains credulity to claim that recipients of a psychoactive drug won't have a high enough probability of recognizing the fact to bias their own outcomes according to their own expectations.

Psychoactive drugs will cause changes in behavior. Psychiatric symptoms are gauged by observing behavior.

Anyone attempting to measure the effects of a psychoactive drug on psychiatric symptoms should be expected to be able to distinguish those receiving the drug from those not receiving it, and then apply whatever bias they have to the results.

The concept of placebo controls and blinding can't be applied to psychiatry with any validity.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:20:44 2015 No.7152745 >>7152727 You've never had derealization or depersonalization on cannabis? Really? I certainly wouldn't take anything psychoactive with cannabis given how synergistic it is known to be.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:29:58 2015 No.7152762

>>7152229
>But my disdain for them comes from their arrogance and conciet. They should simply man up and admit that they dont know what the fuck they are doing, while the rest of us accept the fact that doing anything is still a lot better than doing nothing.

Do you have some sort of personal grudge against them? Most doctors look like they "play god', and "don't know what the fuck they are doing". I don't think we know shit about cancer either. Still, some people get cured.
Having medical science representatives holding banners and signs saying "WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CANCER" would be funny as fuck, but I wouldn't get any satisfaction form it.

I've never met a psychiatrist, but a friend of mine is an intern in a psychiatrist ward, he frankly told me they don't know how it works, and they can only try to help. Doesn't sound conceited or arrogant to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:34:30 2015 No.7152774 >>7152538 >This is 100% true. Well I'm convinced

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:36:01 2015 No.7152781 >>7152742 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_placebo

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:40:44 2015 No.7152788 >>7152762 lots of people with "friends" in this thread I guess real people can't find a place free of these fake fucks who talk about fake friends to try and make the points they think they are making.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:46:42 2015 No.7152805 >>7152788 end your life

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 11:51:18 2015 No.7152812

There's no such thing as schizophrenia, just your brain switching off the normal wavelength and tuning into spiritual and emotional energy.

Science has no way of dealing with or explaining this stuff, so scientists respond with outright denial and lash out with hostility at any implication that it exists at all. So if you go to scientists, or people working for science like psychologists looking for an answer, they cannot help you, they fundamentally fail to acknowledge what is actually happening to you and attempt to cure the symptom which is never going to work. Once you're tuned in, there's no tuning out.

Some people get tuned in naturally, most need to work at it either through prayer and meditation or through psychedelics. Weed is a psychedelic, just a very weak one, it tunes you in a little bit. Since it's so commonly used it's the most common trigger for people, though. Acid pretty much tunes you in directly, if you are capable of truly seeing and you take acid a few times it will open your eyes. But it's hard to find.

Your mind needs to be strong enough to process the signal. And you need to know what's happening, or else you completely lose it and end up a deranged hippie or a drugged up zombie welfare case. But science doesn't understand it, and turning to science for guidance will lead you astray and hurt you. Get off the pills. Fast.

You're not sick, you only think you're sick because science has told you that you're sick. You're trying to process something beyond rational explanation, it's hard but if you ever hope to live a real life you need to accept it, try to make sense of it and embrace it and become something greater. Pills will destroy you and science will never cure you, just lobotomize you.

tldr i hope soon because i have a pretty bad case of the schizo myself

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 12:06:20 2015 No.7152840

>>7152781
So you don't think you could distinguish whether you were given amphetamines or alcohol?

The problem here is that these are *psychoactive* drugs. If you wanted a valid active placebo, you should choose one such that its effect on the mind is indistinguishable from the treatment. But you're treating *psychiatric* conditions, so the entire point is the effect on the mind.

If two psychoactive drugs have different effects on the mind, we have to assume that they will trigger the subject to apply his biases differently.

Furthermore, if they have different effects on the mind, they will have different effects on behavior, which will affect the subject's social interaction, potentially injecting the biases of every person the subject interacts with into the outcome.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 12:23:25 2015 No.7152872

>>7152812
I'm not going to comment on the mysticism angle and get into a religious argument, but this advice is just dangerous:
>Get off the pills. Fast.
...and I say this as one of the psychiatry critics here.

Withdrawal. It is bad.

It seems that one of the best predictors of success of a psychiatric drug is that it has withdrawal symptoms which resemble the condition supposedly treated. This powerfully feeds confirmation bias, and creates a potent illusion that the drug works, since going off it creates the symptoms, and going back on it fixes the withdrawal symptoms.

So, as a rule, abruptly going off antipsychotics makes you psychotic, even if you never had a psychosis problem in the first place. Going off antidepressants can make you suicidal, even if you were happy before you took the drugs. Going off mood suppressants can make you manic, even if you were never manic before. Going off ADHD meds can make you unable to focus on anything, even if you had no problems before starting on them.

If you're going to drop your meds, taper off in a cautious, orderly manner, preferably under medical supervision, or at least under the supervision of friends and family who understand what you're doing and have a plan for if it goes badly.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 12:39:03 2015 No.7152900 >>7152872 I agree completely. I'm the guy from: >>7152163 I tried cold turkey. It didn't work. Weaning yourself off them is the best idea, but PLEASE at least take up meditation or some kind of physical activity to focus on.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 12:41:33 2015 No.7152904

>>7152840
Unless you're suggesting something untestable and unfalsifiable, it isn't difficult to account for these biases you mention, deal with treatment- and drug- naive cohorts, and weigh the evidence with the drug's efficacy vs. others in the same class, pharmacodynamics, look at the effect profile in animal models, etc and then apply occam's razor.

Not to come off harsh, but you seem ignorant on clinical trials, and really basic statistics/methodology actually. Instead of spewing your misunderstandings as facts and expecting people to spoonfeed you on how they're wrong, why not try to get some formal education on the topic first.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 12:53:58 2015 No.7152925

>>7152904
>Unless you're suggesting something untestable and unfalsifiable, it isn't difficult to account for these biases
So, if you ignore the fact that your key assumptions are untestable and unfalsifiable, then psychiatric placebo trials are totally valid. Gotcha.

You can't just brush things off as "untestable" when they're essential to the topic in question, unless your intent is to dismiss the possibility of scientific investigation of the topic.

>get some formal education on the topic
I love it when people justify their cargo-cultism with "formal education".

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:03:26 2015 No.7152937

>>7152925
I love it when ignorance and arrogance culminate to pseudo-intellectualism. Your failed comprehension is not fact and if you haven't yet realized, your use of words such as 'bias' are sufficiently vague and folk psychological that no one can yet make any sense out of them. Could you try reformulating in terms of falsifiable predictions, please?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:09:30 2015 No.7152948 >>7152937 You lost this argument two posts ago, when you gave up trying to make a reasoned argument and started blustering, handwaving, and appealing to authority.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:15:33 2015 No.7152955 >>7152163 You obviously aren't schizophrenic and were just misdiagnosed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:21:05 2015 No.7152961 >>7152948 Projection: the post.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:31:04 2015 No.7152986

>>7152955
Nope. What exactly are you thinking? Schizophrenia and altered mental states of perception are two completely different mental abnormalities? It's bullshit, schizophrenia is a diagnosis of something science doesn't understand, he is no doubt 100% schizophrenic according to the scientific definition of schizophrenia, but that doesn't mean he can't handle it, and it certainly doesn't imply that there is some sort of pathogen present in his brain making him crazy that the drugs would have cured.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:31:53 2015 No.7152987

>>7152961
Just look at this shit: >>7152904
>it isn't difficult to account for these biases you mention, deal with treatment- and drug- naive cohorts, and weigh the evidence with the drug's efficacy vs. others in the same class, pharmacodynamics, look at the effect profile in animal models, etc and then apply occam's razor.
You just tried to claim --not argue, just straight up assert!-- that it's not difficult to account for experimenter bias and the role of human behavioral response to uncontrolled stimulus.

Wave your hands at academic sophistication all you like, you're contradicting fundamental principles of science. The apparent sophistication is superficial.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:47:24 2015 No.7153017

>>7152987
>that it's not difficult to account for experimenter bias
It's called statistics. It's called methodology. It's called using many different experimental modalities. It's called meta-analysis. Why the fuck are you on a science board when don't know this?

>human behavioral response to uncontrolled stimulus
nonsensical combination of words

>you're contradicting fundamental principles of science
Oh, I see now. You don't understand the scientific method. >>>/x/ is the right place for you.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:48:12 2015 No.7153019

>>7152987
>You just tried to claim --not argue, just straight up assert!-- that it's not difficult to account for experimenter bias and the role of human behavioral response to uncontrolled stimulus.
>Wave your hands at academic sophistication all you like, you're contradicting fundamental principles of science
So are you one of those freshman who seriously believes that psychology, ecology, biology and everything else that isn't as empirically rigorous as particle physics isn't really science then?

Because what you are objecting to is a property of literally every social science experiment ever conducted and if you think not having those factors rigorously controlled down to six sigmas like in a physics experiment invalidates the results it is logically inconsistent of you to accept any conclusions of psychology whatsoever, even the most very basic.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 13:54:56 2015 No.7153036

>>7153019
>psychology, ecology, biology
One of these things is not like the others.

>what you are objecting to is a property of literally every social science experiment ever conducted
Oh, so this is a social science experiment now? I thought it was supposed to be medicine.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 14:03:50 2015 No.7153050 >>7151839 You sound mentally blind.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 14:07:03 2015 No.7153055

>>7153017
>It's called statistics. ... It's called using many different experimental modalities. It's called meta-analysis.
None of which has any strong ability to correct experimenter bias. They're as likely to reject one unbiased experiment from a group of biased ones as to do the opposite.

Science doesn't work by voting, because discipline and talent are rare. The cream has to be able to rise to the top.

>It's called methodology.
My whole argument here is that methodology is being misapplied to create false confidence in unreliable results. Acting as if you've achieved meaningful controls for the placebo effect and reliable blinding, when you're testing the effects of psychoactive drugs on behavior, shows incompetent methodology.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 14:15:07 2015 No.7153077 >>7152640 "And" B is next to N on the keyboard.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 14:30:45 2015 No.7153117

>>7153055
>None of which has any strong ability to correct experimenter bias.
Evidently not 100%, but they all help tremendously. Try setting foot inside a science classroom for once instead of mindlessly following conspiracy theories.

>They're as likely to reject one unbiased experiment from a group of biased ones as to do the opposite.
Except that's only how quacks like to think peer review works.

>My whole argument here is that methodology is being misapplied to create false confidence in unreliable results. Acting as if you've achieved meaningful controls for the placebo effect and reliable blinding, when you're testing the effects of psychoactive drugs on behavior, shows incompetent methodology.

It looks more like your 'argument' asserts this:

>drug has some effect above (appropriate active) placebo on outcome measures via invisible bias dragons we can't detect or control for
vs. the conventional
>drug has some effect above (appropriate active) placebo on outcome measures via neurobiologically plausible mechanisms

I wonder which is more scientific now, hmm...

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 15:14:25 2015 No.7153213 >>7151761 Has psychiatry helped, OP?

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 15:21:44 2015 No.7153228

>>7153117
>mindlessly following conspiracy theories.
>that's only how quacks like to think
Why u salty tho?

>drug has some effect above (appropriate active) placebo on outcome measures via invisible bias dragons we can't detect or control for
If you casually dismiss those "invisible bias dragons" like this, you're arguing against science and for pseudoscience. From the physical sciences, we have many examples of how untrustworthy human researchers are.

And we can detect these dragons, we just can't control for them. Psychiatric studies generally show strong placebo effects even with inactive placebos, and they show stronger ones with active placebos which provide physical effects alone, and are not psychoactive. Yet active placebos remain rare. As a rule in psychiatry, when trying to improve symptoms toward normalcy (rather than merely chemically restrain patients into passivity), the placebo effect is stronger than the difference between the placebo effect and the real drug.

So we know that standard placebo control techniques for psychiatric drug trials DO NOT capture the maximum placebo effect, since when we fool the patients more effectively into believing that they've been drugged, they show a stronger placebo effect.

And we have no reason to believe that non-psychoactive drugs are sufficient to provide the maximum placebo effect. While it's possible to get it wrong, you can generally tell whether or not you've been given a psychoactive drug. So we should expect a stronger placebo effect from a psychoactive placebo.

Furthermore, there's no reason to believe that all psychoactive drugs are equally convincing placebos. The character of the experience it provides can guide expectation of its theraputic effect, like a blue sugar pill being better at making patients feel calm, and a red sugar pill being better at making patients feel energetic.

Under these circumstances, producing results modestly better than an inactive placebo is garbage.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 15:33:31 2015 No.7153251

continued from >>7153228
>Under these circumstances, producing results modestly better than an inactive placebo is garbage.
...and yet most drugs are approved based on results that can only be described as "modestly better than an inactive placebo". And their effectiveness tends to drop off with subsequent study, yet the people who did and reviewed the original research are not discredited as incompetents.

Psychiatrists demand the authority to forcibly treat based on 45% success rates over 25% inactive placebo success rates, that later falls to 33% success rates over 30% active placebo success rates. And then they don't even use research-validated dosing or drug combinations, but ad hoc superdose polypharmacy "based on professional experience and consultation with colleagues" (i.e. bro science), and threatening and hurting the patient until he agrees he has been helped.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 16:05:02 2015 No.7153306

I have paranoid schizophrenia. How do you people with schizophrenia manage not to kill yourselves? I used to be a gifted child, had high hopes and dreams. But eventually, schizophrenia caused a cognitive decline for me which left me cognitively impaired, as it does for most people. Now I sit on disability all day long, planning how I would kill myself. My delusions and other symptoms seem to have ceased as I'm taking medication, but I won't ever able to pursue my childhood dream of being a theoretical physicist due to an untreatable cognitive decline.

There seems to be no solutions other than killing yourself. Euthanasia should be legal, including for remitted mental patients who realize the course, prognosis and consequences of this disease.

There's nothing which will bring my intelligence back, and this is especially said considering the fact that I tested as gifted in primary school. Now, it's all gone. There's no hope left. The only option is killing myself to end the misery and suffering.

Btw, what's the least scary yet effective way to kill yourself? Burning charcoal in a tent combined with a powerful anesthetic (such as chloroform)?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 16:08:49 2015 No.7153310 >>7153306 samefag sad be able

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 16:34:13 2015 No.7153350

>>7153228
>>7153251
>http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html score over 9000!

Sorry that I have better things to do right now than to sit here and write up a point-by-point refutation debunking all of that baseless garbage you just posted. So I guess you win. But maybe someone else can help you.

I just have one question though: where's your Nobel prize and center spread on the front page of Nature? You know, for disproving all the decades of basic, translational and clinical research and the thousands upon thousands of papers published in all those high level scientific journals coming from all these hundreds, if not thousands of independent labs and independent groups? It's all a conspiracy against your 'bias' theory of psychiatric medication, amirite? I wish you the best!

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 16:40:55 2015 No.7153365 >>7152520 you didn't read the linked study, did you? :( I don't think OUP is /x/ tier btw

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 16:50:54 2015 No.7153384

>>7153350
>Sorry that I have better things to do right now than to sit here and write up a point-by-point refutation debunking all of that baseless garbage you just posted.

>I think venom is an adequate replacement for reason.

>all the decades of basic, translational and clinical research and the thousands upon thousands of papers published in all those high level scientific journals coming from all these hundreds, if not thousands of independent labs and independent groups
You say that as if they're all in agreement on something, rather than frequently refuting each other's findings, and periodically announcing that the whole field was basically ineffectual and harmful quackery up until a decade or two before the announcement ("but THIS TIME, we've got it right, and you can totally trust us to make life and death decisions for people now, not like those arbitrary torturers we used to be!").

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/12/13/the-truth-wears-off
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

>It's all a conspiracy
Incompetence isn't a conspiracy.

>your 'bias' theory
You mean my perfectly conventional attitude toward standards of scientific evidence.

...outside of the social "sciences" and psychiatry of course.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 17:00:16 2015 No.7153410

>>7151925
You are probably trying to help but, assuming the drugs really are placebo, you are potentially taking away the meds' effects, atleast the positive ones, from some people with this. Even though I dislike the idea of big medical companies, I find it better that those people have atleast their mysterious magic pills to pop instead of nothing.

Actually you could in a principle turn real medicine into homeopathy with your words. If water can cure diseases with belief, so can believing you turn the pills powerless.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 17:25:41 2015 No.7153438

>>7153410
>assuming the drugs really are placebo, you are potentially taking away the meds' effects, atleast the positive ones, from some people with this.
...and here we have the absolutely most dangerous idea connected with psychiatry:
"Even if it's just a placebo effect, isn't that better than nothing?"

The reason this is such a dangerous idea is that psychiatrists have this idea as well. Researchers, peer reviewers, managers, journal editors, FDA bureaucrats, drug marketers, family members, hospital administrators have this idea.

And the consequence of it is:
"It's okay to lie, deliberately and consistently, and to support other people's lies, and to straightfacedly deny having lied to people who know that you've lied."

Or, more briefly:
"It's okay to be insane toward the insane."

These are not harmless drugs. They are physically damaging and often debilitating. They kill some patients.

These are not consistently efficaceous drugs. They fail to help many patients, and can worsen psychiatric symptoms.

Psychological effects, such as the placebo effect, are unreliable and context sensitive. Just because you see a placebo effect in the context of a study doesn't mean it'll happen anywhere else.

The thing is, if a placebo effect works, then that means it's something that can be controlled by perception and choice. If people's symptoms are going away from a placebo effect, then they can make it go away just by thinking about it differently.

How many people can be helped by being told that their problems are something they can deal with just by changing the way they think about them, by having hope and choosing to take control?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 17:38:18 2015 No.7153451 >>7152367 >watches a terence mckenna video on shamanism and schizophrenia >takes terence mckenna seriously >hurr my hallucinogens new age faggot detected. worst part? i still think he is more correct than the people shouting at op to take his meds

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:19:27 2015 No.7153643

Psychiatry is not a science. Neuropsychiatry is not a science. Psychology is not a science. How many times must this be reinforced? You will never find a cure for something using science when there's no scientific basis for it existing in the first place.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:33:11 2015 No.7153669

>>7153643
>no scientific basis for it existing in the first place.
There's obviously something there. There's just not much support for saying that all of these problems should be lumped together as "schizophrenia".

Different cases of schizophrenia are probably things as diverse as undiagnosed known physical illnesses which can affect brain function which need treatment, unadmitted drug habits which should be quit, as-yet-undiscovered physical illnesses which affect brain function which need new research, runaway bad habits which need coaching, temporary disruption of brain function due to maturation processes continuing into adulthood which just need to be waited out and worked through, and semi-self-aware play-acting by self-deceiving bored people who want to feel interesting and get attention, which needs to be seen through and discouraged.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:37:47 2015 No.7153686

Doctors are unscientific morons who don't have a clue what they're doing, they're just trying to hurt you and empty your wallet.
If you get a broken leg what you need to do is overcome it with discipline.
Casts and crutches are only a placebo. It only takes 5 seconds to realise this if you do your research.

Fucking scientologist morons

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 19:39:22 2015 No.7153692 >>7153643 WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:06:25 2015 No.7153769 >>7152812 >There's no such thing as schizophrenia, just your brain switching off the normal wavelength and tuning into spiritual and emotional energy. >i have a pretty bad case of the schizo myself You don't say.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:11:38 2015 No.7153780 >>7153669 If schizophrenia can be treated with psychiatric medication (placebo sugar pill or chemical lobotomy) like other mental disorders there's obviously not

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:16:16 2015 No.7153790 >>7153780 >with psychiatric medication (placebo sugar pill or chemical lobotomy) Or you know, regular medications.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:23:22 2015 No.7153803 >>7151761 Jesus that image is scary and interesting at the same time.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:26:41 2015 No.7153809
File: 96 KB, 497x458, antipsychotic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7153790
Regular medications treat physical disorders that science can detect. Psychiatry is just a belief system with no real scientific bearing. Its function in society is similar to religion. Instead of praying to a bearded sky man and doing the rain dance you takes brain damaging substances to fix made up problems with the placebo effect, all while the pharma industry profits from your stupidity.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:28:16 2015 No.7153815 >>7153809 >Psychiatry is just a belief system with no real scientific bearing. Yeah, no. You're a cunt. And an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:37:15 2015 No.7153834 >>7153815 Your pseudoscientific cult leaders are the real cunts and idiots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II96QkZaz1E

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:41:15 2015 No.7153841 >>7153834 Check out this retard. He posts a "documentary" from a channel whose URL contains "ConspiracyTelevision" and whose second documentary is "26 Mile Alien Mothership in our Solar System". Yeah, no. You're a cunt. And an idiot.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:43:50 2015 No.7153847

>>7153803
It's in psychology textbooks that this was how the guy's art changed as he went crazy, but I believe the people who say he was just experimenting with his art for fun. The abstract ones are supposed to be inspired by wallpaper patterns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Wain

>>7153809
>physical disorders that science can detect
While it's best to find an objective physical diagnostic test, many conditions are diagnosed by symptoms alone.

>made up problems
I believe that most people on psychiatric medications don't have anything real wrong with them, and have just bought into pills as a quick fix for the everyday struggle of life, but when you see the really bad cases, they are clearly people with brains that are not working right at all.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:47:24 2015 No.7153853 File: 40 KB, 454x461, tumblr_myxg559ta11snssyfo1_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7153841 And you sound like someone who has run out of arguments and now resorts to ad hom and name calling

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:48:11 2015 No.7153854

>>7153809
>that science can detect.
You can detect a lot of psychiatric disorders with 'science' too, but why spend time and money on complicated imaging studies when
>disorder are be diagnosed on clinical data, any fancy scans would be as confirmation when you're already 90%+ sure of the diagnosis.
>you'd prescribe the same drugs anyway.

>brain damaging substances to fix made up problems with the placebo effect
your concept of placebo is pretty fucked up if you think psychiatric meds could ever be classified as such.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:51:01 2015 No.7153864

>>7153853
Funny since you're the one who keeps screaming "PSYCHIATRY IS AN UNSCIENTIFIC SCAM" without actually providing any evidence other than "muh conspiracy theories".
Whatever is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
But for arguments sake I pose the fact that psychiatry helps millions of people as evidence that you're a cunt.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:53:37 2015 No.7153872

>>7153847
>While it's best to find an objective physical diagnostic test, many conditions are diagnosed by symptoms alone.
I meant to say that many non-psychiatric medical conditions are diagnosed by symptoms alone.

>>7153854
>You can detect a lot of psychiatric disorders with 'science' too, but why spend time and money on complicated imaging studies
No. There is not one reliable physiological test for a psychiatric disorder. Whenever they find a detectable problem with the physical brain, it becomes business for neurologists.

>your concept of placebo is pretty fucked up if you think psychiatric meds could ever be classified as such.
There's a whole discussion in this thread about how hard it is to separate placebo effect from non-placebo effect in psychopharmacy. Many or all psychiatric meds might only provide benefit by placebo effect.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 20:55:52 2015 No.7153876

>>7153872
>Many or all psychiatric meds might only provide benefit by placebo effect.
When I was diagnosed with schizophrenia I was put on a medication to help me. I believed it would work but it didn't.
I was put on a second medication and it worked perfectly despite me doubting it would.

Shove your placebo argument up your ass

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:00:09 2015 No.7153885
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>>7153864
Religions help lots of people. Psychiatry is a religion, not a science. The taxpayer should not be paying for your holy water and costly sacramental visits to the psycho-priest.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:01:31 2015 No.7153886 >>7153885 Take your meds and shut up. You're obviously here on a crusade against medicine given your enormous armory of anti-psychiatry images.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:05:03 2015 No.7153894

>>7153876
>I was put on a second medication and it worked perfectly
You mean you started on a second medication and then you got better. You don't know the medication did it.

Assuming that because you got better, the medication worked is how people conclude that homeopathy works.

When they do controlled studies, they find that some untreated people get better, some people taking placebos get better, and some people on the drug being tested get better.

Placebo effect isn't just about expectation, it's about suggestion. Placebos can work for people who don't initially expect them to work, especially when they're active placebos that have side-effects, and they can "feel them working".

Even if it's placebo effect, that doesn't mean your problem wasn't real to begin with or didn't have a physiological basis. They've done placebo *surgery* on people with joint injuries (cut them open, did nothing to the joint, stitched them up), and found a placebo effect benefit. Thinking you're being treated can lower your stress and encourage you to take care of yourself better, helping you heal.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:07:53 2015 No.7153904 >>7153894 No. I know it's the medication because when I reduced the dosage I started getting symptoms again. Psychiatry is real and helps people. Cry more, you unscientific faggot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:13:37 2015 No.7153922 >>7153904 That can be attributed to the nocebo effect. I do believe psychiatry is real though.

Anonymous Wed Mar 25 21:15:46 2015 No.7153926

>>7153904
>I know it's the medication because when I reduced the dosage I started getting symptoms again.
One of the things about psychiatric medications is that they tend to have withdrawal symptoms that look like what they're supposed to treat. So you can give them to healthy people for a while, then take them away, and they go psychotic, or get suicidally depressed, or have a manic episode or whatever.

People can report an increase in symptoms when you take away a placebo, too.

This kind of thing is why they do placebo-controlled studies in medicine. The problem in psychiatry is that you can never really eliminate the possibility that psychoactive drugs are just more convincing placebos.

I'm not saying to go off your meds. If what you're doing is working for you and you're happy, don't change it. I'm just saying that distinguishing placebo from direct effects isn't something you can do from an individual case.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 23:22:35 2015 No.7154172 I think I have a similar condition, I get delusions when I think(visualize) of stuff and I can 'control' them like when you are having a lucid dream. I even had one where I was fucking a disabled girl while floating in mid-air

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 23:28:58 2015 No.7154191 >>7154172 >I get delusions when I think(visualize) of stuff and I can 'control' them like when you are having a lucid dream. That just sounds like imagination.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 23:33:55 2015 No.7154206 >>7151816 >Taking psychedelics with a history of schizophrenia You're gonna have a bad time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 25 23:54:11 2015 No.7154230 >>7154206 I'm schizophrenic and I'd totally do psychedelics if I had the chance. Of course, the whole paranoia thing gets in the way of trusting drug dealers.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 00:04:10 2015 No.7154243 >>7154230 If you actually want to see how far that rabbit hole can go then... There are legal psychedelics, or legal vectors anyway. I'll leave you to do the research. You can even buy them off amazon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 00:24:28 2015 No.7154270 >>7154243 Are you seriously going to tease me like that?

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 00:32:52 2015 No.7154289

>>7154270
Yes.

I'm speaking from living in the US, other areas may differ, but I guaran-fucking-tee you can get psychedelics online no problem. You can probably even get them from your local wal-mart, I would wash them first though, or grow your own and harvest.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 00:49:03 2015 No.7154314 >>7154289 So... can I just eat the seeds, then?

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 01:34:51 2015 No.7154403
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>>7154314
Essentially, yes.

If you do buy them at a wal-mart they're probably treated with pesticides/vomit-inducers. Which, isn't going to be pleasant because they already cause mild to severe nausea by themselves.

In other words, get ready for the full shamanic experience.

Do some research about dosing before you go crazy. Erowid is a good resource.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 01:50:15 2015 No.7154418
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>>7154230
Do. Not. Do. This.

Ya think yer going to fry your goddamned mind - what you're going to fry, is your goddamned soul. And it is going to last a LOT longer than the drugs will. If you think you're schizophrenic now, just wait until your permanently on the schizoaffective bandwagon, and walking through a living hell, unable to tell whether your awake or dreaming for the next decade.

Besides, I don't need anymore kids in here eating their own shit.

Schizophrenics need to stay far, far away from anything hallucinogenic or disassociative, let alone both.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 01:53:52 2015 No.7154424 >>7154418 I only have the "disorganized" version of schizophrenia, so I've never heard voices or had hallucinations. Had some delusions at one point, but I was hopped up on amphetamines at the time.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 01:55:06 2015 No.7154425

>>7154230
Don't listen to them, man. Just get a hold of some weed somehow, should be easy enough if you live in America, and smoke that shit. I'm Schizophrenic too and apparently the kind of things I experience from THC are already as crazy as what the real hardcore shit does, there's no need to do anything that could potentially harm even normies.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 02:01:20 2015 No.7154433
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>>7154418
As the guy that's telling you to do research and everything, this guy's right.

Psychedelics are very well known for potentiating the effects of schizophrenia several fold. Or if you have latent schizophrenia breaking it out.

Any psychoactive drug has the potential to do this, weed included.

Psychedelics are notorious for it though. All of those people that people say never come out of the trip? They're just full blown schizophrenic, they're not tripping.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 02:03:07 2015 No.7154437
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>>7154424
Then pic related.

There's nothing you could possibly get out of the experience. The only people who think it's some sort of mind opening experience, are people still doing the drugs regularly, that can't look back rationally on their own thought processes to see what a load of hogwash the "2deep4u enlightenment" they think they've received for what it is.

In reality, it's a mind narrowing experience. You're basically shutting down every fifth chemical receptor in your brain through overload, forcing the system to re-route in random delusionary ways, similar to the thought process that goes on while large portions of the system's down and you're sleeping.

"Everything is circles" sounds stupid to you right now - on drugs, it doesn't.

Nothing good can come from this. You'll, at best, escape some hard life problems temporarily, and pile on a whole lot of dramatically worse new ones.

But to each his own - I don't advocate making the stuff illegal, even if I spend most of my time being paid to clean up the end result. Just consider yourself warned.

...and now, no doubt, some druggie will come in and try to convince you I'm a shill working for the reality police or some shit.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 02:09:41 2015 No.7154447

>>7154437
>"Everything is circles" sounds stupid to you right now
I am contemplating circularity in the universe from elliptical galaxies down to string theory, while my brain is rewriting the "Everything is awesome!" number from The Lego Movie as "Everything is circles!" and playing video for me.

And I'm not high or schizophrenic. I'm pretty sure that I'm recovering from malnutrition-induced (digestive problems, not from not eating) deterioration of the nervous system, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 02:17:03 2015 No.7154459 File: 68 KB, 470x713, blog3314widea.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7154447

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 02:25:57 2015 No.7154474 >>7154459 No, it gives you diabeetus.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 09:57:56 2015 No.7154833 >>7152840 >So you don't think you could distinguish whether you were given amphetamines or alcohol? That's not how control works you fucking moron.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 10:24:01 2015 No.7154846 >pseudoscience in my board Okay, I'll bite. Describe to me how it could affect my daily, professional life. Without assuming people are stuck up judgemental teenagers.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 15:10:33 2015 No.7155177
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>>7152706
>woah bro all drugs are social constructs the placebo effect can explain everything; there are anaesthetic placebos, vitamin B12 placebos, sympathomimetic placebos, immunosuppressant placebos, psychedelic placebos
kill yourself

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 15:29:59 2015 No.7155211

>>7154833
It's how blinding works, chum.

You can hardly say you've got a blind trial if your drug causes the subjects to turn orange as a side effect, and your active placebo causes them to turn blue.

>>7155177
Nice meme-arrow strawman. We're talking about drugs with purely *psychological* intended effects.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 15:34:21 2015 No.7155221 >>7155211 Why cherry pick drugs with psychological effects? Are you a dualist or something?

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 16:22:37 2015 No.7155291

>>7154433
Yea, I had a really bad incident with spice that I was told was marijuana. Apparently it had ketamine in it, and I now have schizophrenia. It's not 24/7 debilitating, but it's not like I can really have a normal day anymore.
The spice thing happened 3 years ago, I'm not expecting this week ever go away

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 16:23:53 2015 No.7155294 >>7155291 Will, not week

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 16:32:52 2015 No.7155313 >>7155221 >Why cherry pick drugs with psychological effects? Do you have any idea of what "cherry pick" means? Here's a hint, it doesn't just mean "focus on" or "discuss".

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 16:48:20 2015 No.7155335

>>7155291
It, probably, will, eventually. It takes years, but if you keep on top of it, recognize nonsensical, disassociative thoughts for what they are, when they occur, and stamp down on that shit, over time, and avoid exposure to things that encourage them, it'll become second nature and a subconscious action. Self-monitoring cognitive therapy, as it were. That's provided you don't relapse, by partaking in any additional drugs.

You are going to lose five to ten years of your life though - and there's no real recovering from that loss, and the experience will always haunt you, let alone the effects it's no doubt had on your friends and family.

Sadly, that's the best case scenario I've seen for people affected like that over the years. You can post coherently enough, so maybe you'll be better off than most. Lots of people just end up in and out of mental institutions and the streets for the rest of their short miserable lives - so consider yourself lucky.

Again, not on the ban-all-drugs bandwagon, prohibition does more harm than good - but really, it just isn't worth the risk. The real shame of it is, most people ruin their lives when they are young and have so much potential, and so much time to live with the consequences.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 16:56:39 2015 No.7155350

>Studies have increasingly shown that a maintenance dose of antipsychotics works primarily by placebo effect

I'm calling bullshit.

>>are terribly irrational and harmful

The fuck? No, they aren't, the meds we have available are pretty much the best option. By definition, telling people to use them is rational and harm-reducing.

You're right that we do need to know more.

>>7152205
>>My take is that this condition does have survival value.

It has socio-cultural value, certainly. Witch-doctors that use placebo to ease pain, etc.

>it is our modern perception in western nations that this is a disease.

interestingly, there are 'minor' forms that are considered personality disorders.

>>7152211
>>Maybe we're looking at an individually-disadvantageous, collectively-beneficial mechanism out of its proper context.

Like how homosexuality adds extra babysitters to family structures

>>7152361
No, this person is a 10/10 troll. You're an idiot for saying otherwise.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:03:05 2015 No.7155358

>>7152538
No, shamans are capable of choosing when they display their "delusions". Schizo people don't have any options.

>>they're afraid of the power of ancient shamans.
Nice conspiracy thinking.

>spiritual cancer to suppress your shaman abilities with medications
haha

>>7152630
>>When in bed, either about to sleep or just woken up, I can hear (and almost see)

Actually that's NORMAL during the Hypnagogic part of our sleep cycle. During sleep, there are random neurons firing throughout your brain, and your cortex tries to synthesize meaning out of the chaotic sensory information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:22:48 2015 No.7155385

>>7155350
>>Studies have increasingly shown that a maintenance dose of antipsychotics works primarily by placebo effect
>I'm calling bullshit.
>the meds we have available are pretty much the best option. By definition, telling people to use them is rational and harm-reducing.

Let's start from wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic#Maintenance_therapy

So there's a study to support: "Maintenance therapy with antipsychotic drugs is clearly superior to placebo in preventing relapse, but is associated with weight gain, movement disorders, and high dropout rates."

Found a full copy not behind a paywall:
http://www.update-software.com/BCP/WileyPDF/EN/CD008016.pdf

Back to wikipedia. Same page, same section. Hot on the heels of the above claim: "historical studies show little difference in long term outcomes before and after the introduction of antipsychotic drugs."
http://www.bap.org.uk/pdfs/Schizophrenia_Consensus_Guideline_Document.pdf

Oh dear.

So a review of the published literature on drug trials shows that studies have consistently shown "significantly" better outcomes for people on the drugs than people not on the drugs.

BUT a review of the statistics on outcomes before and after the drugs existed shows no significant improvement of long-term outcomes, despite widespread use of the drugs.

Oh dear.

So either the existence of the drugs has somehow worsened outcomes for people who don't take them so severely as to balance out the benefits to the people who do take them, OR the drugs don't work and the quality of psychiatric drug trials is laughable.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:32:26 2015 No.7155397

>>7155385
One thing that you almost never hear about is the demoralizing effect of being included in a study for a serious, life-destroying condition, and being put in a control or placebo group. You're essentially tellng the patients that they're being sacrificed for science. Patients in placebo groups tend to drop out of psychiatric drug studies. It should not be surprising if they are driven to despair or panic, and their mental state is badly harmed.

As I've explained at some length earlier in this thread, it's essentially impossible to prevent patients from recognizing whether they have or haven't been given a psychoactive drug. These are drugs that act on the mind. They bypass the senses and signal the brain directly. You notice them. Maybe not with 100% accuracy, but enough that we should presume that blinding is a fantastical notion where psychoactive drugs are involved.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:36:46 2015 No.7155403

>>7155335
you are so incredibly braindead fucking retarded to think that a completely harmless dissociative like ketamine triggering a schizophrenic reaction in someone already genetically predisposed to schizophrenia is the same as taking way too much molly or speed or whatever and frying your brain cells, just so fucking stupid i dont even know what to say to you

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:42:46 2015 No.7155417

>>7155335
>recognize nonsensical, disassociative thoughts for what they are, when they occur, and stamp down on that shit
This.
My psychedelic explorations caused me to start going schizophrenic, but doing what the anon said helped me out, I'm pretty alright now-a-days and very cognitively able.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:47:41 2015 No.7155427

>>7155403
I've seen it more times than I care to count. Again, we get at least one kid eating his own shit a week in here. Ketamine being the trigger's a lot more common than LSD, though that might just be prevalence, and yes, you can get the same effect with meth, and a host of other drugs. But for those so predisposed, dissociatives are by far the worst. A lot of folks just never come back.

Anecdotal, yes, but try sobering up for a few years and say that again - or ask anyone else who works in the acute ward of any mental hospital in any major city.

Not that there aren't people out there who can do the same combination of drugs hundreds of times and remain relatively functional, but placing a bet on that, especially when you've already been diagnosed, for one trip, or even a dozen (as it often doesn't fry you the fist time around) - not worth it by any measurement. Your brain is who you are - it's not some random organ you're gambling with - it's your whole self.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:55:38 2015 No.7155450 >>7155397 but if the control group knows it's control group then that isn't science...

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:56:43 2015 No.7155452

>>7155397
Not much way around that, but drug studies are at least voluntary, usually with some sort of compensation. Sadly, I think half the people who participate in them, just have some hint of a mental history, and are trying to substitute their income.

But yeah, the psychiatric drug trials are not what they once were, and no longer follow the rigorous rules of old. The pharmaceutical companies have infiltrated the FDA pretty deeply to make sure of this.

Nonetheless, the bulk of them just operate on the same principles of those from ages past when tests were still rigorous. So odds are it's doing something - whether it's doing its thing any better than its predecessor, who the fuck knows.

That all said, the placebo effect is not to be underestimated. If it works for you, don't knock it. Dun much care if it's "faith healing" or "homeopathy" or what not.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 17:58:15 2015 No.7155458 >>7155450 I think he means to imply that the folks on the placebos realize they aren't being helped, and drop out more often than those not getting the sugar pills. Not that they know what they got ahead of time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:02:27 2015 No.7155472 >>7155458 Clinical trials usually include compensation, so I'm not sure why anyone that knows they're receiving a placebo would drop out.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:04:16 2015 No.7155477

>>7151974
>People need to have something to do, or they go crazy. Diagnose a man with schizophrenia and send him home on disability and have him just sit alone with nothing to do but kill time and watch himself grow old, then of course he's going to go nuts. Anyone does under those conditions.

my neetophrenia was triggered by this. a schizo at home on disability has just as much freedom to direct his own life as he pleases as a homebound neet. not working does not necessarily mean sitting there literally doing nothing.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:06:22 2015 No.7155480

>>7155472
Yeah, not backing his claim (don't have numbers on that), just saying there's an actual control group. I do know these tests are no longer double blind, and run by the companies selling the drugs to boot, with no oversight, so they are suspect all around.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:07:54 2015 No.7155487

>>7152163
I agree with much of this but, honestly man, weed? I'm not schizophrenic and strong weed really fucks with my head, inducing symptoms close to schizophrenia. It goes away when I stop smoking for a while and get it out of my system but literally one hit of strong stuff and it's like opening the floodgates to schizophrenia again. My mother has... issues and I think they're trying to break out in me.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:09:37 2015 No.7155492

>>7155472
As the word "compensation" implies, there are costs involved in complying with the study.

What if the compensation the subject is looking for is access to a new treatment that they hope will be a miracle cure?

>>7155452
>That all said, the placebo effect is not to be underestimated.
Placebo effects can be highly context-sensitive.

You can't conclude from a placebo effect seen in a study that patients will benefit from a similar placebo effect when they aren't part of that study.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:11:48 2015 No.7155499

>>7152199
Good post. It's a terrible shame that mind-managing techniques are not taught in psych wards. Most patients get a 5-10 minute talk with the psychiatrist and a prescription for mind-numbing drugs. No advice on how to deal with the content of their own minds. Nothing. They need mandatory meditation classes every day. Anyone admitted into a psych-ward needs to be put on a 2 week strict meditation schedule, given good nutrition and supplements, exercise, sunlight, long sleep, etc. When I was in a ward, we got no sun, were awoken whether we slept well or not, had shitty airline food, no supplements, given sedatives to sleep instead of melatonin if someone needed something, etc. Just all wrong in every way. I left a long letter in the suggestions box, not that anyone would have taken it seriously, but still. Fuck.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:12:10 2015 No.7155500

>>7155492
>What if the compensation the subject is looking for is access to a new treatment that they hope will be a miracle cure?
This is highly unlikely, as the paperwork you have to sign for a clinical trial includes the fact that you cannot continue to take the medication after the clinical trial ends.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:18:40 2015 No.7155515

>>7155500
Do you know what cure means?

Also:
1) some of these trials are quite long,
2) the idea of fully escaping an chronic illness even temporarily can be incredibly attractive, and
3) if the drug works really well, they should only be off it temporarily, until it's approved (which they might believe will be fast).

And do I need to point out again that there are conditions which must be adhered to? You can't stay in a drug study and also pursue whatever other treatment you consider is in your best interest.

Someone who joins a drug study out of interest in relieving their problem is likely to drop out when they realize they are in a control group, so they can go try something else.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:18:57 2015 No.7155516

>>7155427
I've used DXM over 1000 times in seven years, starting at age 20. A psychiatrist told me (and my family) that he could not see any damage it had done and that he saw no reason for me to discontinue using it. Now, that doesn't mean I haven't teetered on the edge of insanity numerous times, but I believe my brain recovered pretty well through right-living, meaning proper nutrition, exercise, intellectual stimulation, and lots of self-reflection. I'm not encouraging any drug use, certainly not DXM, but I think people blame drugs too much when the fault lies elsewhere. Who knows, if I hadn't been conscious of the necessity of actively recovering from each use, if I hadn't maintained proper nutrition and so on, my brain may not have recovered so well. I suspect a lot of people who get lastingly fucked from drugs never had good brain habits in the first place and they allow the temporarily disorienting and reality-shifting effects of drugs to cause them further downward spiraling in life. As always, your mileage may vary.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:29:43 2015 No.7155542

>>7155492
>Placebo effects can be highly context-sensitive.
Didn't mean to suggest otherwise. But it's worth noting that a large part of the reason the pharmaceutical companies lobbied to put an end to the requirement for double-blind studies is that several drugs that had tested better against their placebos in decades past, stopped passing those same tests, presumably, simply because people's faith in the modern medicine had changed so radically between the 50's and 70's.

And I get a lot of patients who are "cured" by what amount to placebos on a regular basis. When I get some fat chick in who tells me they feel so much better since the psych put them on a regimen of 5mg of Abilify, or what not, I'm always tempted to write down "placebo", as that's way below therapeutic dosage.

But that's a good thing. If you can help them with a placebo, it's preferable, in mild cases, to over dosing them with stuff where the side effects are likely worse than the cure. Especially when it's some vague diagnosis like "Chronic Depression" with no specific incidents... Or they are young. The diagnoses itself does more harm than anything else, sometimes, with adolescences - it becomes part of their identity. Really think we should keep diagnoses away from anyone under the age of 18, but people move and switch medical insurance all the time, so I get why it's tricky.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:31:54 2015 No.7155549

Another thing to consider is patient dishonesty.

Psychiatrists are known as easy marks. Psychiatric medication often has recreational or performance-enhancing applications, so people go and pretend to have a condition, and get a prescription for drugs they can resell at a profit. It's not hard, most shrinks have their prescription pad on a hair trigger. You can also get yourself on psychiatric disability pretty easily, and just coast through life.

Compensated studies can draw a crowd of petty con artists. Not to mention corporate espionage crews, who are in it to obtain samples of the drug for analysis, so copycats can be made.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:36:45 2015 No.7155558

>>7155516
Yeah, again, some people do tons of drugs for ages and remain relatively functional. Some people are wrecked for life after the first time. ...and there's incidents of everything in-between - fine the first dozen times, wrecked for life on the last, or do tons of drugs for years, then get something that destroys them one day.

It's usually not a thing where "they were schizoid before and the drug brought it out", however. It's usually they were perfectly functional before, maybe with a very minor sign of issues, if any at all (beyond the desire to do drugs to begin with), and then they suddenly can't count to four without screaming in agony about the government raping their brain for violating the causality of the universe - or what not. It tends to be a sudden stark transformation between night and day, and very long term.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:41:02 2015 No.7155565

>>7155549
>It's not hard, most shrinks have their prescription pad on a hair trigger.

I was honestly shocked just how short the patient-doctor interviews were in a psych ward. People lined up, each getting 5-10 minutes and a prescription. I wondered, what ground could possibly be covered in such a short time? With me, they spoke for much longer. Judging by the patients, I think their inability to adequately reflect on their own situation and eagerness to be medicated is the reason this happens. Since I was reluctant to be diagnosed with anything or prescribed any medications and was willing to dive deep into my own psyche, giving the doctor a deep exposition in my thought processes and history, they were perfectly willing to talk more and at greater length. I think some doctors must feel helpless when they get stupid patients who can't look inwardly at themselves.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:53:00 2015 No.7155594

>>7155565
>>7155499
To be honest, the problem is... We're fucking swamped.

You'll be lucky to see the psychiatrist for 5 minutes where I am, if ever. You'll see a bunch of psychologists though, and they'll mark up your specific symptoms, based on their brief observations, and reports, and toss them all back to him. Then he'll pick out something of the DSM-V that matches up based on that information. Really, could be Watson, or even some considerably less sophisticated computer that does what he does, and we could all be filling out bubble cards for it, for all the difference it would make.

The only reason you ever see the psychiatrist at all is largely formality, to give the illusion of that "human element" that really isn't there, because we just have too damned many patients coming in and out, and far too wide a variety to boot.

It's sad, but between this sick sad world, and all the drugs, both prescribed and illegal, can't hope for much more than that. As with any hospital, you're a set of numbers, not a person.

Not that we don't, fairly regularly, have cases that pull on our heart strings so much as to traumatize us, but the longer we've been here, the more jaded we are to that - and you have to be. You won't survive this environment otherwise.

Nonetheless, we somehow manage to do more good than harm, most of the time. Or at least provide the opportunity for a time out that is, well, less apt to aggravate the problem than the alternative - ie. Jail.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:54:57 2015 No.7155600 >>7155313 I know what it means. You on the other hand don't seem to know what "strawman" means, though, retard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 18:57:14 2015 No.7155607 >>7155594 >we somehow manage to do more good than harm, most of the time. What are you basing that on?

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:05:15 2015 No.7155627

>>7155607
I also do outpatient work and group therapy, so I see the results of the ward fairly regularly. The bulk of our patients do get better. Plus the number of return patients we get is fairly low here (lower than most, actually).

We also have a long term wing, and the folks we release from there almost never come back, save voluntarily, and even then that's rare. Granted, the panel is kind of picky about who they let in there, as it's pricey.

Really, the psyche ward is not designed to cure you. It's triage - the psychiatric equivalent of the emergency room. You end up here after a 51/50 or what not, and are lucky you didn't end up in the prison system instead. We just try to get you to the point where you can stand straight, and can't hold you for much more than two weeks, in most circumstances. Don't have time to do any real therapy. That's what the outpatient system is for.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:13:36 2015 No.7155644

>>7155594
I was in a psychiatric ward once.

I was feeling very sick, in a lot of pain, suffering a very diverse and confusing range of physical sensations, and had some trouble organizing my thoughts. I asked for a family member to give me a ride to the hospital.

There was a misunderstanding on my arrival. Between my pain-driven urgency and my difficulty communicating effectively, the nurses assumed that I was a psych case who had been dragged in by a concerned family member. They wrote this on my chart (*without* asking the family member), and had me shut away in an examination room within minutes of my arrival.

After a couple of hours, one doctor came in for a couple of minutes, hardly asked me anything, refused to physically examine me, and didn't seem to listen to my responses. He just made his mandatory appearance, so he could pass me off to a shrink, who came in an hour later, and who rushed through a checklist of manic symptoms in a few minutes, twisting my answers into confirmation. Neither of them asked my accompanying family member any questions, except whether he was concerned with my mental state. They didn't ask whether he was concerned for my physical health, or whether my mental state was his primary concern. The shrink signed off on a 72-hour hold, and I was taken to another hospital with a psychiatric intensive care unit.

On my arrival, I got a psychiatrist who DID actually talk to me and listen to the answers. He informed me that I clearly was not manic, and clearly did not need psychiatric intensive care, and then told me he was having me admitted to the psychiatric intensive care unit.

They kept me for a week, while I constantly complained that I was in pain and urgently needed medical attention. I was never physically examined, or allowed to talk to a non-psychiatric doctor.

(too long, continued)

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:16:16 2015 No.7155648

I've know 2 different schizophrenics from 2 different continents but both used almost exactly the same bizarre syntax when typing like:

"I,was,diagnosed,schizophrenic,last,yr,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but,this,is,INDUCED,from,an,implant,I'm,a,targeted individual,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,GANGSTALKING IS REAL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I,found,this,on,my,skin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,100%,PROOF of morgellons!!!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:17:00 2015 No.7155650 >>7151831 Funny joke. But imagine being deaf with the same possibility.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:19:33 2015 No.7155657

continued from >>7155644
I was prescribed no medication, but signed up for long-term community mental health and disability benefits (which I agreed to under apparent threat of indefinite detention). So I was labelled as a psych case for life.

I was released with diagnoses for somatoform disorder NOS and schizoid personality disorder. Before they released me, they made me choose a new family doctor, and sent him the medical records for my psych admission without my consent.

I had never been asked for consent to the admission, but when I later made a complaint, it was claimed that I had given unrecorded verbal consent. Officials refused to investigate, or claimed to be investigating, but later revealed that the extent of their investigation was to the ask the admitting psychiatrist whether I had given consent, and accept his word on it.

The official record still shows that I was helped, and that I expressed gratitude for their help, and left in improved condition and with an optimistic outlook.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:22:23 2015 No.7155660 >>7155657 In other words, the people working in the psych ward, and the people in charge of administration for it, are either entirely delusional or actively dishonest about what they're doing to the patients.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:33:30 2015 No.7155683

>>7155644
That sorta thing isn't terribly uncommon, sadly. Once someone dumps you on us, we're just in a rush to process you. Might take quite awhile before we get you where you need to be.

It happens more often with the elderly. We don't get them often here, unless they are homeless, as there's a place that specializes in that nearby. I've a friend who gives me all kinds of horror stories about that place though. A great deal of the time, someone gets sent to their wing just because no one knows what else to do with them.

I mean, yeah, the guy is 80 and has diabetes, of course he's going to be a little spacey, no need to put him on a forced disability hold, and declare him invalid, when he has a perfectly functional wife to take care of him though.

I do sometimes think there's some nasty corruption of some sort going on over there... I mean, beyond the usual.

>>7155657
>and sent him the medical records for my psych admission without my consent
That there should not be possible, however, unless you're a minor, ward of the state, or under arrest. Around here, people get sacked, and sometimes go to prison, for oversights like that. Varies with the state, but we can't hold you here for more than two weeks, and yeah, 72-hours for the initial hold, without, not only signed and witnessed consent, but a whole panel of confirmations.

But we can turn a 72-hour hold into two weeks with just verbal consent, or a doctor's recommendation. Really though, we're under a lot of pressure to get you gone, ASAP.

Also, disability benefits are another department entirely. We have a social worker here, who deals with that, and sets you up with other outpatient services, but we've no motivation to get you on SSI or what not - nor do they, as I understand it. They've actually a limit to the number and types of people they can help setup for certain services each year, so it's in their interest not to, really, and hold out for people who really need said.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:34:45 2015 No.7155688 File: 665 KB, 2048x1536, 754.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Roses are red Violets are blue I'm schizophrenic And so am I!

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:46:14 2015 No.7155709 >>7151761 >How close is science to discovering a cure for schizophrenia? Some subtypes of schizophrenia already have a cure. anti-iGluR antibodies, for example.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:52:56 2015 No.7155732

>>7155683
It works differently in different jurisdictions, but there were many things that were illegal about what they did. It wasn't even legal for them to admit me without a finding that I needed treatment in a locked-door facility, regardless of consent, but they won't acknowledge that point of law.

I am in Canada, and in my province there's basically no oversight if a patient consents to the admission. You can give consent once, and spend the rest of your life in a locked-door psychiatric facility without anyone reviewing your case or you ever talking to a lawyer.

In theory, a voluntary patient can request discharge at any time, but they're under no obligation to tell you so, and a request for discharge is something different from simply asking to be allowed to go outside the facility. So if you don't know you have to ask specifically to be discharged, and you ask to be let out, they just can tell you "no".

So that false claim of an unrecorded verbal consent would have been enough to hold me for life with nobody but the admitting psychiatrist ever looking at my case, even though I had been taken to the facility by force. It's a system people can just disappear into.

Anyway, my point was, you don't know what the fuck is actually happening with the patient. Your information about them coming in could be false, the observation notes of the nurses could be false, and seemingly positive results can just be the behavior they've been threatened and tortured into exhibiting, to protect themselves against being sent back.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:53:56 2015 No.7155736 >>7155688 I hate this fucking poem because some people actually believe this is what schizophrenia is like.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:55:06 2015 No.7155740 >>7155648 I can't tell if you are screwing around or not.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:58:09 2015 No.7155752 >>7155736 Would you prefer: Roses are red Violets are blue I'm schizophrenic And ALIENS ARE BEAMING MIND CONTROL RAYS INTO MY IMPLANTED RFID CHIP

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:58:40 2015 No.7155754

>>7155736
Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Which is #FF0000 and #0000FF, respectively, making two separate double FF combinations, subtracting from the hexadecimal base, which is the Number of the Beast, and the sexual connotation of FFFFFUUUUUuucked, meaning I'm going to be buttfucked by boars if I don't get out of this garden in the next few moments, but I can't, because two purple flowers are crossing my path at right angles, and my feet will get lobbed off by the dimensional monowire between them if I cross it too fast.

More accurate, but doesn't rhyme.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 19:59:04 2015 No.7155755

>>7155736
Well, "schizophrenia" means "splitting of the mind", so it sounds like that should be what it means, and you hear about multiple personality disorders (they're a staple of fiction, even if they're rare and kind of questionable in real life). It's an understandable error, especially when the proper definition of "schizophrenia" is so complicated yet vague and arbitrary.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:04:45 2015 No.7155767

>>7155648
>>7155740
He might be exaggerating a bit, but no, it's really frightening how much of the same identical odd behavior you see from schizophrenics.

One of the really odd ones, we've all been trying to figure out, is why so many of them draw the same angled hour glass patterns on the walls of their rooms, but there are far stranger ones that'd we've seen over and over again, that similarly make for good sci-fi/horror fodder.

It's not just schizophrenics though - certain events and disorders cause very strangely predictable behavior and associations. Just about any psychologist can tell if someone's suffered from child abuse by talking with them for twenty seconds, the mind set is just that incredibly consistent, that it extends to fundamental verbal constructs, almost invariably in the same fashion every time. That's before you get to all the thirty year old women who sound like twelve year olds - kind of an obvious giveaway that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:07:28 2015 No.7155772 >>7155732 no1curr

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:07:54 2015 No.7155773 >>7155767 >there are far stranger ones that'd we've seen over and over again, that similarly make for good sci-fi/horror fodder. Come on, man. Don't tease.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:10:05 2015 No.7155778 >>7155773 He's only teasing because he's talking out of his ass.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:35:35 2015 No.7155813

>>7155773
Gah, I could write a fucking book, and know more than one person has...

There's the stereotypical Jungian stuff: thinking they are god, the devil, Jesus, or all the above. Usually a defensive mechanism, but sometimes they weave very elaborate tales around this. Often they don't come from a religious background at all, but this is the US, so the stuff's pretty culturally invasive - and, suffice to say, it can be difficult to deal with god, or someone who similarly believes they are the persecuted chosen one. Buddah, less common. Never met a Napoleon (maybe that was common back in the day, and started the stereotype), but have met at least five Gandhi's.

Common, but less stereotypical: the belief if they cross a certain point or line, or say a certain thing, that their parents will die. Global Capgras delusions, where they believe that all their friends and family have been replaced by doppelgangers, is common, and usually a sign of physical brain damage - the emotional connections they make with faces having broken down, and they fail to remember new ones (almost always drug educed). The belief that any women they look at will become pregnant (usually after failing to notice a certain nurse was pregnant - this was all over the damn ward for months). Repeating number fascination. Believing themselves trapped in patterns in the floor or walls (to the point where we regularly end up stripping decorations, can't do much about the tiles though). The belief that they've been verbally trapped, and unable to move, after someone says a certain something to them. The inability to count to 4, 7, 8, or 13, actually skipping the numbers out of a paralyzing fear, and the inability to count backwards in sevens from 100 (not fear, just plain old can't do it).

... 1/2

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:36:35 2015 No.7155818

>>7155813
... 2/2

Universal to acute sufferers is the inability to decipher proverbs or metaphors. If you ask, for instance, "What does it mean, when I say, 'A man in a glass house should not throw stones.'" - you will get the craziest and most elaborate answers that have nothing to do with the phrase, usually mechanically deliberate ones, such as, "Well, he should ground the rock to powder and go outside first.", and the like. The guys at intake have a whole list of these they use to determine such neural correlates, and a list of fun answers they've gotten over the years.

...and then there's the eating of their own shit, which I've mentioned numerous times. Always druggies, and at least once a fucking week - sometimes more, if there's a concert in town or some such.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 20:52:41 2015 No.7155841

>>7155313
You've already firmly established your belief itt that the efficacy of psychiatric medication and surgical procedures are no better than giving some homeopathic concoction, acupuncture, or a different colored pill, since the layperson is deluded by society to consider these "Westernized" things worthwhile treatments. So let's take your creationist logic further and dismiss all medicine as placebo. Don't forget now that the placebo effect is capable of violating the laws of physics and biology, and more parsimonious explanations for these effects that can actually be empirically tested are just the work of incompetent cargo cult scientists.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:02:21 2015 No.7155850

>>7155813
So dude I am probably schizophrenic and would like your input on the matter.

I have apparently developed psychic powers. I can sense other people's moods and emotions when they are nearby, when I make eye contact with someone and talk to them I get extremely good intuitions as to what they are actually thinking far beyond their words. It appears as though I've become extremely attractive to women, I'm too shy to talk to them but they have been following me around, getting close to me or checking me out every time I go out in public for the last week, this is opposed to seemingly never even noticing me before. There's a lot more crazy shit too. Oh, the big one, ghost sex, apparently that's a thing and I've had it, it was almost certainly just an extremely in depth fap fantasy but damn.

I also now believe in God. Not as some external being, but as the single universal consciousness manifested subjectively in each one of our brains, which is one entity when viewed separate from linear time. Meh, I have quite a well reasoned out explanation for this, I assure you. But I believe I am Jesus, because I've accepted the light of God into my heart and can now inspire others, and Jesus was a man who completely devoted himself to God hence why he inspired a religion that lasted 2000 years, I believe anyone who has communicated with God, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, all the prophets, are all different instances of man accepting the light of God to gain spiritual understanding.

This happened during an acid trip last week.

I'm still good at math, I'm in grad school and haven't had any issues. And pretty much everything that happens seems to confirm my delusions, which is probably my delusions confirming themselves. But I am at least aware that this is all most likely completely delusional. Have you heard similar stories or what? Is it just I'm crazy but smart so I use big words in my psychobabble?

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:03:35 2015 No.7155853 [DELETED]

>seemingly positive results can just be the behavior they've been threatened and tortured into exhibiting, to protect themselves against being sent back.
The truth is, that's more or less what we're paid to do... Maybe not in that fashion, or by design, but hospital stays are invariably unpleasant, they thus form part of the diversion to anti-social behavior. People don't want to come back. Granted, no matter how hard we try to make it a tolerable environment, we inevitably fail.

I do have a fair degree of extended history with some of my patients, so I do know what's happening with those few that I do see post release, as well as those released by other facilities, both from them and from those who accompany them (I don't do pediatrics, but the parents sometimes are nonetheless involved). I'm just a lowly MTFC psychologist specialized in drug dependency though. Your statement is likely more accurate in regards to the psychiatrist, who actually prescribes their medicine, but there's one of him for every twenty of me, so that's unavoidable. Again, seeing him at all is mostly pro forma.

>You can give consent once, and spend the rest of your life in a locked-door psychiatric facility without anyone reviewing your case or you ever talking to a lawyer.
Well, here in the US, not only is this not the case, but we're encouraged to get you out as soon as we can, especially when the state's paying for it, and there's no insurance involved. (More often the case than not here, as we take in all the 51/50's in a metropolitan area numbering in the millions.) Unless they've set up some odd system that encourages this in Canada, where they are paid by the head, or some such, I really doubt it's the case there either. ...But if it is, that's all sorts of messed up. Granted, I feel our "bag em and tag em" approach has the opposite problem.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:07:08 2015 No.7155857 >>7155850 If you actually believe you're Jesus, you're probably at least a little fucked up. But if your beliefs don't interfere with your day-to-day life, I would avoid psychiatry like the plague.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:07:14 2015 No.7155859

>>7155732
>seemingly positive results can just be the behavior they've been threatened and tortured into exhibiting, to protect themselves against being sent back.
The truth is, that's more or less what we're paid to do... Maybe not in that fashion, or by design, but hospital stays are invariably unpleasant, they thus form part of the diversion to anti-social behavior. People don't want to come back. Granted, no matter how hard we try to make it a tolerable environment, we inevitably fail.

I do have a fair degree of extended history with some of my patients, so I do know what's happening with those few that I do see post release, as well as those released by other facilities, both from them and from those who accompany them (I don't do pediatrics, but the parents sometimes are nonetheless involved). I'm just a lowly MTFC psychologist specialized in drug dependency though. Your statement is likely more accurate in regards to the psychiatrist, who actually prescribes their medicine, but there's one of him for every twenty of me, so that's unavoidable. Again, seeing him at all is mostly pro forma.

>You can give consent once, and spend the rest of your life in a locked-door psychiatric facility without anyone reviewing your case or you ever talking to a lawyer.
Well, here in the US, not only is this not the case, but we're encouraged to get you out as soon as we can, especially when the state's paying for it, and there's no insurance involved. (More often the case than not here, as we take in all the 51/50's in a metropolitan area numbering in the millions.) Unless they've set up some odd system that encourages this in Canada, where they are paid by the head, or some such, I really doubt it's the case there either. ...But if it is, that's all sorts of messed up. Granted, I feel our "bag em and tag em" approach has the opposite problem.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:08:14 2015 No.7155862

>>7155841
>You've already firmly established your belief itt that the efficacy of psychiatric medication and surgical procedures are no better than giving some homeopathic concoction, acupuncture, or a different colored pill, since the layperson is deluded by society to consider these "Westernized" things worthwhile treatments.
Whatever you say, Napoleon.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:13:50 2015 No.7155866

>>7155850
Assuming this isn't bait... What you assembled for yourself during that trip was a comfortable delusion, and one actually not all that uncommon, full time, even among the young and sober - but it usually passes over time. However, comfortable delusions can become very uncomfortable, very quickly, and you might be able to imagine how that might have come to pass, if that trip had never ended.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:24:56 2015 No.7155887

>>7155859
Well, thanks for sharing. You've posted some very interesting stuff.

>Unless they've set up some odd system that encourages this in Canada, where they are paid by the head, or some such,
In my case, there were definitely people getting called in as contractors and having a payday they wouldn't have had otherwise. The guy who signed my 72-hour hold was one of them.

In Canada, it's a single-payer system, with no private alternative. You're generally not allowed to buy or sell important medical services (but you have to pay for your own ambulance rides and prescription medication; it's really arbitrary). Even if you have money, there's no way to see a psychiatrist who isn't getting paid by the state for it.

The people in charge of the psychiatric facilities are public service bureaucrats who increase their importance and likelihood of raises and promotions by increasing their budgets. So if they can crowd the facilities and have new ones built, it'll probably mean career advancement.

It would be pretty hard to keep the state out of care of the seriously mentally ill (you can read that either way), but the way it's working out in my province is pretty fucked up (each province has its own healthcare system; they get transfer payments from the federal government to pay for most of it).

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 21:46:08 2015 No.7155906

>>7155887
As I understand it, what you have in Canada is actually privately provided, but publically funded, with supplementary insurance on the side for those bits not entirely covered.

I've heard you do have some piecemeal paid doctors though, and that's something I've always objected to. We have some of that here in the states, and it invites all sorts of corruption. Everyone at the facilities I work at is paid either by salary or by the hour though - invites laziness, I suppose, but much less outright corruption.

Still sounds like you were misfiled, and thus stuck for three days. Maybe just couldn't get enough sense out of you and ya got stuck for a few more weeks. That could happen here, and has, more than once. The really bad part of the three day hold thing is that we *can't* get rid of you until that expires, short of a medical emergency. Hell, the police can't even take you away during that time, which has caused some friction. (Don't get me started on the hell the cops raise around here.)

We do give people a folder regarding their various medical rights, but I know most of them are too high to read it, and no one really walks them through it. I have seen people sign away their firearm rights while crying, and yeah, that shouldn't be allowed either. Not that they should have guns, but clearly they aren't of sound mind to be signing shit. We've also had problems with certain security guards, who, well, fuck with patients sometimes - occasionally literally. Suffice to say, when caught, they then end up in the, even more swamped, prison system afterwards. They have to go through a four week training course and background check, but there simply aren't enough big trained orderlies and nurses to go around, so we end up with underpaid pricks, sometimes. Not that they're all bad.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:01:32 2015 No.7155928

>>7155906
>The really bad part of the three day hold thing is that we *can't* get rid of you until that expires, short of a medical emergency.
Are you sure that's what it means in your state? Which state are you in?

I'm in the Canadian province Manitoba, and a "three day hold" is called an "involuntary assessment" here (informally, a "Form 4"). 72 hours is merely the upper limit.

Here's our mental health act:
http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/m110e.php
The authority to sign a Form 4 is given in Section 8. What it authorizes is given in Section 9:
"for the person to be detained, restrained and observed in a facility for not more than 72 hours"
"for a psychiatrist to examine and assess the person's mental condition to determine whether involuntary admission is necessary under section 17."

Section 20 gives the release requirements. The relevant authorities in Manitoba will not acknowledge subsection 20(1), which requires the assessing psychiatrist to release the patient "after examining the person and assessing his or her mental condition" unless the involuntary admission requirements given in section 17 or the voluntary admission requirements given in section 4 are met (both require that the person being detained for assessment needs treatment which can only be provided in a "facility", meaning a locked-door facility).

Subsection 20(2) requires that the person being assessed be released *within* 72 hours.

>Maybe just couldn't get enough sense out of you
They've defended themselves by claiming that, although it was obvious on my arrival that I did not need institutional treatment, I was consenting, and keeping me admitted facilitated interventions in my life such as signing me up for disability benefits.

Nurses actually recorded in the record that I stated that I didn't understand why I was being held there and didn't think I belonged there. And they recorded some of my requests for urgent non-psychiatric medical attention.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:10:22 2015 No.7155939

>>7155928
>>7155906
Oh, and while most medicine is privately provided, many hospitals are run by the government.

One of the things that has made this difficult to pursue is that the hospital I was sent to was a tertiary care facility run by the "regional health authority", with all of its key management positions held by managers of the regional programs.

With a private hospital, you can report incidents to the regional health authority, and they'll investigate accusations of incompetence and corruption, but in this case, my complaints simply landed on the desks of the managers being accused. I pushed them up the ladder until I was talking to the health minister, but in each case, it was asking managers to admit serious incompetence or malfeasance of at least one person who they were responsible for.

Be-fucking-ware socialized medicine. This is some soviet shit.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:21:09 2015 No.7155948

>>7155928
>>7155939
Think I've already given too many clues as to where I actually work, but I know that's the case, as occasionally they've tried it.

The relationship between the hospital and the police, in every wing, medical or psychiatric, is as tense as it is odd. Usually the cops just drop people off. We've recently got a kind of nice deal for them now, where they can do that and save themselves a pile of paperwork, if they see fit.

If the patient-to-be is particularly violent, or the cops want to charge them with something, but, for some damned reason, come to us first, then things get sticky. Doctor declares the hold, and if the cops decide stick around and watch the guy menacingly, or even want to post themselves outside his room, we can't do dick about it. We've got one pair of officers who occasionally show up here that not only do this, but start dicking around with all the patients.

I should point out, that the delusion that cops are angels, demons, or aliens, should also be put on that "common" list, so this causes all kinds of shit in the ward, never mind all the people who are here on drugs, and have every rational reason to be paranoid of the cops. It's shear hell until they leave.

And, occasionally, a pair of cops will show up to drag someone off to trial, after the 72-hour hold. You can just see the look on everyone's face, thinking they can be whisked off by these angel/demon/alien things at any given moment. Apparently, due to some sort of departmental policy, they have to come into the facility and retrieve the defendant themselves. We'd love to just haul them out and have them waiting at intake, but none of the cops seem to feel the need to tell us they are even coming.

Shit sucks, but nadda ya can do, really. Though the nurses association keeps lobbying for laws to fix some of this shit at least.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:23:27 2015 No.7155953

>>7155939
>>7155939
...and yeah, socialized medicine or not, hate to tell ya, but we've got plenty of similar horror stories around here. Huge system, huge number of people, too many immune from oversight, same shit everywhere.

Think what we really need to move further away from is this centralized medical care crap. We need more door-to-door doctors, regardless of whether they are socialized or not. Not an option for acute psychiatric care, obviously, but really, same principle applies - just need more, smaller facilities, instead of a two or three big ones servicing millions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:25:12 2015 No.7155957 >>7155948 >the delusion that cops are angels, demons, or aliens Took me a second to sort out that this wasn't hyperbole. People say this kind of stuff too often trying to make a point.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:33:31 2015 No.7155970 >>7151831 I understand how you feel bro. I recently got glasses to make me see better. Now I do and my has improved tenfold. The best thing is, I'm legally able to drive without glasses so they aren't actually a necessity.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:35:29 2015 No.7155973

>>7155953
Well, America's got much of the same problem in how medicine is paid for.

I think the usual arrangement should be that the patient pays for the services he's consuming.

"Insurance" that covers routine care fucks up too much of how private commerce is supposed to work. Since people aren't spending their own money, they aren't reluctant to waste doctors' time, and since doctors aren't getting paid by the patients, they (or their managers) are motivated to game the compensation system instead of serving their customers well.

So instead of having a good hour-long talk about your health issues with a doctor, and coming back in for another hour after the lab results have come in, and settling on a treatment plan that deals with the problem, you end up coming in for fifty 15-minute appointments spread over three years, and trying a dozen drug prescriptions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:53:40 2015 No.7156001 >>7152524 I think by rejected he means socially rejected, not romantically rejected.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 22:54:29 2015 No.7156002

>>7151840
I've never told my doctors about my manic/depressive episodes, I'm currently in the strongest mixed state that I've ever had. I've slept about 40 hours in the past 5 days, one 15 hour chunk, a 5 hour night and then mostly just 2-3 hours naps, I'm increasingly on edge and if I'm not doing something I'll start chewing my fingers apart or tearing at my hair.

Anyone else dealt with mixed states? Are you lows worse than your highs?

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 23:19:07 2015 No.7156050

>>7155973
>I think the usual arrangement should be that the patient pays for the services he's consuming.
That'd be fine, assuming the doctor never sees it. Otherwise, you get into bits like mechanics, where they tell you that you need all sorts of repairs you don't, just for the commission. Does need to be some sort of firewall between the doctors and patient's cost, but I've no perfect system. Paying medical professionals piecemeal should be illegal though - really, piecemeal wages in general should be frowned upon, let alone at those levels.

Insurance inflates the cost of everything. Here in the US, for instance, glasses, off of insurance, can run you into the thousands, as they are almost always covered. While contacts, which insurance almost never covers, but requires more tests, expertise, and more expensive machinery, wont run you much more than a hundred. ...and that's probably among the least stark of examples, just among the more readily observable.

>>7156002
>I've never told my doctors about my manic/depressive episodes
Why do people do this?

As long as you aren't expressing any immediately suicidal or homicidal desires, there's naught the doctor can do to you. At the same time, there's nothing he can do *for* you, if you aren't honest with him. It's not like you'd be trying to cover up a broken arm from your doctor.

Not saying he can necessarily fix you, but hell, at least let him on it, so he can offer whatever he can.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 23:25:48 2015 No.7156065

>>7156050
That statement wasn't completely honest, I've told my current doctor that I have experience manic and depressive episodes, but that I don't wish it to go on record or be treated with medication. I can handle it on my own, honestly my self management of my mental state is very inspiring for me, it's one of the only things that gets me out of bed at my worst or if tragedy strikes (as it does far too often), knowing that I can handle it and resiliently bounce back. Call it pride, call it outright stupidity, I just prefer to self medicate in my own ways.

Anonymous Thu Mar 26 23:31:12 2015 No.7156079

>>7156065
Short of involuntary hospitalization or arrest, at least here in the states, your mental health status is confidential. (and, in a lot of states, even if you are hospitalized, it's still confidential.)

But even if it's a matter of sheer stupidity, you don't have to take medication, and any psychologist or social worker worth his salt can direct you to any number of alternate solutions. Hell, my GP runs a weekly meditation health group. Never went to it, but he offered.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 26 23:35:06 2015 No.7156088 >>7156079 Unless you have ADD, there is literally zero benefit to telling your doctor about mental health issues. Best case scenario, he does nothing, worst case scenario, he prescribes you some bullshit SSRI or anti-psychotic.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:14:05 2015 No.7156390
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>>7156088
Tell him you won't take medication. Worst case scenario he does nothing, best case scenario, he hooks you up with free access to one of hundreds of alternative medicine regimens and related groups with more of said.

At least if you live in Commiefornia. Might be less likely to get the latter in less hippie oriented states. Even then, no where in the states can a doctor medicate you unless you are involuntarily admitted, imprisoned, or a minor with your parent's consent. (And not even then, in most states.)

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:25:54 2015 No.7156405 >>7156088 It's much better writing it on 4chan where it is not confidential at all and anyone from your mom to your ISP can snoop on you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 03:52:15 2015 No.7156422 That is 10 times the population of my country, thank you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 04:28:00 2015 No.7156442 >>7152706 >I don't know what I'm talking about: the post

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 06:56:17 2015 No.7156555 >>7151863 >psychology Your joking right?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 15:11:51 2015 No.7157213 >>7156422 Denmark?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 15:19:54 2015 No.7157223 >>7156555 Obviously some hypothesis that this illness can be induced somehow. I remain sceptical.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 15:21:24 2015 No.7157226

>>7156390
>Tell him you won't take medication. Worst case scenario he does nothing
That is NOT the worst case.

Worst case scenario, he has you involuntarily committed and they forcibly give you a drug that kills you, or makes your life so miserable that you'd prefer death, or the police kill you when they come to get you.

It's never safe to admit mental health problems to a doctor.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 16:45:03 2015 No.7157360

>>7157226
The only way you can be involuntarily committed, by a doctor, in the US, is if you express an eminent desire to commit suicide or murder, or get violent with him or his staff. (And the latter requires a 51/50 report, so yer just as likely to end up in jail.)

Again, unless you're a minor admitted by your parents, a ward of the state, been declared non-competent by a court of law, or a prisoner (then it varies). If you've signed over your power of attorney, technically the person you signed it over to can commit you, but not some random doctor. Someone else might use a doctor's opinion to get you declared non-competent, but the doctor can't initiate the process.

Also, don't mention child molestation, if you're a minor, in some states. Won't commit you, but he has to report it.

Only the POLICE and judges can commit you at will. (Doubly so, if you life in a place with Lauren's law - in which case, it's the default approach, if you have no ID, and they don't intend to arrest you.)

Doctors are not gods, and even those who work piecemeal don't get kick backs for admissions in the states. In a lot of facilities, that's considered a failure and a mark on their record - turning an outpatient into an inpatient - and thus they are very reluctant to do so, and thus only do so when required by law.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 16:52:08 2015 No.7157376

>>7157223
Don't think there's any argument among neural scientists that dopamine and serotonin are key components in schizophrenia, nor that the balance of said can't be permanently affected by drugs.

There's a lot of hard-science neural research into schizophrenia, which areas of the brain are affected, the frontal cortex discrepancies, and the like, even if the diagnoses itself almost never involves hard-science. Cat scans and MRI's are expensive, after all.

Not that I wouldn't like to see more hard-science used in such diagnoses. It'd be nice if you could have solid evidence for such potentially life altering treatments.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 16:55:26 2015 No.7157383 >>7157376 >dopamine and serotonin are key components in schizophrenia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_hypothesis_of_schizophrenia might not be right but it's one hypothesis.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 16:56:31 2015 No.7157384

>>7157360
* Also, if you're already admitted into the hospital for medical reasons, as the hospital doesn't actually distinguish - you're really already admitted. But you're not gonna walk into some random psychiatrist's office, and end up in the hospital, unless you do something retarded, and probably should be there anyways.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:00:23 2015 No.7157390

>>7157383
http://www.pharmacology2000.com/Central/psychotics/Antipsy_obj1.htm
^ Again, there's some real science involved, it's not all psychology... But that's only true of the base medical theories, in practice, hard science is rarely used.

Also part of the reason there's such a vast divide between theoretical psychology and applied psychology. Practicality.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:02:15 2015 No.7157395

>>7157360
>The only way you can be involuntarily committed, by a doctor, in the US, is if you express an eminent desire to commit suicide or murder
First of all, it doesn't matter what you express, it only matters what he judges or *claims* to have judged about you, based on what he *thinks* or *claims* you said.

Secondly, the law actually varies from state to state. This isn't a federal matter.

Thirdly, the law is generally something along the lines of "danger to himself or others". If anything you say makes the doctor *worried* that you *might* harm yourself or someone else, that's all he needs.

And he's a lot more likely to get in trouble for not doing it than for doing it.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:11:09 2015 No.7157408

>>7157395
>"danger to himself or others".
There's requirements for that. That's a 51/50 situation, and you must express an eminent desire to commit suicide or murder. He's legally required to ask, "Do you feel suicidal, at this moment." - in those exact words. True, regardless of state.

Yes, it's your word against his, but again, it's a whole lotta paper work for him, with no advantages. Doctors, at least in the states, don't want to commit people if they can possibly avoid it. It's a failure on their part, if they can't treat you as an out patient, they know how swamped the system is, it can really only do any good for the most acute of cases, and in some cases, they are limited to how many people they can commit without first going through yet another doctor.

...and a psychologist, in most states, can't commit you - they have to go through either the police or a doctor first. So it's a simple matter, since you don't want medication anyways, to find a psychologist without an MD, and talk to them (plenty of free volunteer ones out there, if your insurance doesn't cover it - see a social worker). They tend not to have security on hand, so if they call the cops, you can always book it, I suppose.

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:21:19 2015 No.7157415

>>7157408
>That's a 51/50 situation ... True, regardless of state.
5150 is a section of the California Welfare and Institutions Code.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=wic&group=05001-06000&file=5150-5155

>you must express an eminent desire to commit suicide or murder. He's legally required to ask, "Do you feel suicidal, at this moment." - in those exact words.
Actual words "a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or gravely disabled".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29#5150_criteria

It's very plainly not strictly limited like you're claiming.

You're just saying what you want to believe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 17:34:00 2015 No.7157432 >>7151771 When you're off your meds, what is it that you think people notice about you?

Anonymous Fri Mar 27 21:39:40 2015 No.7157802

I ask everyone here. If psychiatry doesn't help, then what can help? Does anyone know the feeling when you have no one else to turn to? It is a feeling of hopelessness and intense depression. At least psychiatry is the last resort or else the world may have a higher suicide rate. Nobody wants that. Suicide has to be one of the worst decisions any human being could make. It is denying one self the right to life. To think that people in history have tried to fight over their equal rights when we have people today who think that nothing is worth it and they decide to take their own life. I don't want anymore of this crap to happen. NO MORE! Do you here me you delusional anti-psychiatry morons? Psychiatry may not be the only solution, but it is the last solution and may it persist as long as possible.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 21:41:33 2015 No.7157803 >>7156555 *you're You have a funny sense of humor.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 27 21:42:55 2015 No.7157805 The only cure I'll accept is smoking more weed.

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/sci/ - Science & Math