/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.15219439]

Anyone with a modicum of intellect eventually gets bored of the endless determinism/free will debate and starts to ask some questions on a meta level: for example, what motivates certain people to continually froth at the mouth and try to convince others that they have no true agency? Let's suppose that they are right. In and of itself, that doesn't explain their obsessive zeal. Why would you become so emotionally and aggressively invested in attacking what would be, at worst, a very human and innocuous, if not beneficial, mistake to make? Why would someone be so full of hatred against people who have a sense of agency? Everyone acts and reasons as if they and others have agency in almost every context outside of this reddit debate. Whatever the true state of affair is, it is humanly indistinguishable from "free will", so why would you be losing your mind over the propensity of normal humans to view it that way? Seems a little odd to me. I don't think it's plausible that the motives behind it are intellectual. Do we have any science on this? What kind of people do this, and why are they like that? :^)

[Anonymous No.15219449]

>>15219439
>what motivates certain people to continually froth at the mouth and try to convince others that they have no true agency?
Maybe their programming is really true and they are really npcs who want to reproduce by somehow making people with souls brainwash themselves into being pseudo-npcs

[Anonymous No.15219452]

>>15219439
Because Science is about the truth, not about what you want to be true (that is religion)

[Anonymous No.15219456]

>>15219439
Perhaps questions about unfalsifiable topics should be deleted or moved to /x/. As for your question I've switched between pro and anti determinism a few times based on various things I've read. But really there is no answer right now and won't be for a very long time so for one to think they know the answer is retarded

[Anonymous No.15219462]

>>15219452
>>15219456
none of these answer OP's question, why do determinists have such a religious zeal in denying others have free will, even though according to their own determinist beliefs no one can really change their minds?

[Anonymous No.15219465]

Humanity needs to outgrow the fiction of free will just like they're in the progress of outgrowing religion. The next step will be outgrowing the egotistical notion of the self. We are not special, we are not the center of the universe.

[Anonymous No.15219466]

>>15219452
>Science is about the truth
no. science is about modeling reality with increasing precision. truth is an attribute of language.

[Anonymous No.15219469]

>>15219466
That's a very social "science" view of truth, it's not how natural scientists think about it.

[Anonymous No.15219472]

>>15219452
>Science is about the truth
So? Does that mean you spend your whole life frothing at the mouth over every thing people get wrong, or does this question hold a special emotional significance to you for some reason? :^)

[Anonymous No.15219478]

>>15219462
>why do determinists have such a religious zeal
What zeal? You seem to be seething over imaginary things

[Anonymous No.15219482]

>>15219472
>Does that mean you spend your whole life frothing at the mouth over every thing people get wrong
Yes, that's one of the side-effects of being intelligent - you are irked by others' stupidity.

[Anonymous No.15219484]

>>15219465
>Humanity needs to outgrow the fiction of free will just like they're in the progress of outgrowing religion.
Yeah, the wrong kind of religion right (meaning, the religion that actually promotes good)? because science seems to like paganism a lot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWN-qim7fVk

Scientists seem to be very eager to turn society into a religious greek shithole, where trannies, sodomites, human sacrifices and hybrids are very common

[Anonymous No.15219486]

>>15219465
>We are not special, we are not the center of the universe.
Earth if flat and has a dome, so nope. You will burn in hell forever for your heretical nonsense btw, no SCIENCE will save you from that, sorry (not sorry)

[Anonymous No.15219492]

>>15219465
>OMG SCIENCE IS SOOOOO HECKIN ANTI-RELIGION
>*names their scientific "voyages" (meaning, a boat travelling on water) with greek deities names*

[Anonymous No.15219496]

>>15219465
>us SCIENTISTS are outgrowing RELIGION
>*names their particle collider after a pagan god*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos

[Anonymous No.15219500]

>>15219482
Being intelligent means spending your life obsessively seething over people making innocuous and understandable mistakes and desperately trying to prove them wrong, even though you never manage to convince anybody? Does not add up. Honestly, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking about you. I'm not interested in what you have to say about your behaviors. I want to see some science on it. :^)

[Anonymous No.15219501]

>>15219496
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_(synchrotron_light_source)

>>15219465
>The next step will be outgrowing the egotistical notion of the self.
Of course, how else will scientists be able to convince people to subject themselves to the sadism of scientists and become literal slaves and food for their nephilim bosses?

[Anonymous No.15219504]

>>15219500
You're the only one seething here, friend. I usually am irked by stupidity, but your stupidity is just amusing.

[Anonymous No.15219506]

>>15219469
>That's a very social "science" view of truth
i'm sure you'd know more about that than i, but more to the point it's a logical -mathematical view of truth
>it's not how natural scientists think about it
i've made no claims about their internal mental states, only their product

[Anonymous No.15219509]

>>15219504
Yeah, ok. I guess you don't have any scientific sources on the causes of your bizarre behavior, so we can call it a day.

[Anonymous No.15219511]

>>15219465
>Humanity needs to outgrow the fiction of free will
Why?

[Anonymous No.15219513]

>>15219492
>>15219496
Wow awesome argument. I suppose naming things after fictional characters also means fiction is real, and that every atheist saying "oh god" or "jesus" is also religious all along.

[Anonymous No.15219514]

>>15219506
>it's a logical -mathematical view of truth
It's a view in mathematical philosophy. But mathematical philosophy has no bearing on the natural sciences (or even on most mathematics) so that view is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.15219518]

Isn't it nice that the irrational zealots show up to illustrate my point?

[Anonymous No.15219537]

>>15219439
everyone who tries to dismiss the determinism/free will debate as boring or unimportant, is always a free will shill. they don't like talking about it because they know that they have no good defense of their woo woo nonsense.

smart people like to talk about it because we are interested in actually explaining the universe. free will shills hate explanations, they hate mechanisms, they hate understanding. they want to retreat into the fog of ignorance and "faith" just like religious people. "you can't know, you'll never know, stop trying, just suffer". their aim is to demoralise.

[Anonymous No.15219540]

>>15219514
irrelevant to what context? you aren't performing research in the physical sciences here on /sci/, you're playing at language. "science is about truth" is not a scientific claim.

[Anonymous No.15219551]

>>15219537
Okay. It's extremely interesting and very important, but what's the explanation for your bizarre and obsessive zealotry?

[Anonymous No.15219553]

>>15219513
>Wow awesome argument. I suppose naming things after fictional characters also means fiction is real
Yes... fictional... I'm sure all those scientists "know" it's "fictional", that's why governments spend millions of dollars to built obelisks, an egyptian religion thing, everywhere and maintain them

I'm sure the Saturnalia being reintroduced to society is just a coincidence too

[Anonymous No.15219556]

>>15219540
>"science is about truth" is not a scientific claim.
That's wrong since if it was not true it wouldn't work as well as it does. So the claim that it's true is something you can test scientifically and it has been found to be true.

[Anonymous No.15219559]

>>15219551
i want to understand the universe, i need to know why i was given this miserable life while certain other people got really nice and fulfilling lives. and there are people with lives even worse than mine, they deserve an explanation too, even though some of them might be too stupid to want it. something has to be held accountable for these disparities in lives lived. and no, "free choice" doesn't cut it, that makes no sense and it's an outrageous attempt to victim-blame.

[Anonymous No.15219561]

>>15219465
>>15219511
Still waiting for an answer. It seems like your kind isn't very keen on self-reflection.

[Anonymous No.15219566]

>>15219559
>i want to understand the universe
Okay, but why does that make you seethe uncontrollably against people who believe they have a sense of agency.

>i need to know why i was given this miserable life
>something has to be held accountable for these disparities in lives lived.
Hmm. Now that's getting closer to some actual motive.

[Anonymous No.15219576]

>>15219556
>the claim that it's true is something you can test scientifically and it has been found to be true
that's a meta-scientific claim. feel free to drop into any of the gödel threads to start getting a handle on some of the problems there. anyway that's irrelevant to our conversation, as you aren't engaging in meta-scientific research here on /sci/. you're speculating, i.e., bullshitting. nothing wrong with that, but don't kid yourself about it.

[Anonymous No.15219578]

>>15219566
>Okay, but why does that make you seethe uncontrollably against people who believe they have a sense of agency.
don't try and sneak out of this with different words now. we're talking about free will. i'm not using the word agency. free will is just an incoherent idea and will never explain the universe. it will never be able to account for why we got this world over any other world we can imagine.

>Hmm. Now that's getting closer to some actual motive.
motives are irrelevant to the truth. it is a matter of fact whether the universe is determined or not, not a matter of opinion. my motives for determinism aren't the same as other determinists' motives for it. the only universal motive is that all determinists think it's the most sensible idea to explain the universe. you would be better off reinvesting that curiosity about my motives into the question at hand.

[Anonymous No.15219582]

>>15219578
>don't try and sneak out of this with different words now
LOL. Ok, allow me to rephrase: but why does that make you seethe uncontrollably against people who believe they have "free will"?

[Anonymous No.15219587]

>>15219576
>that's a meta-scientific claim.
That's just your baseless claim despite my explanation of why it's wrong.
>feel free to drop into any of the gödel threads
Lol. I'm done here, you're quite stupid if you think Godel's theorems have any impact on science.

[Anonymous No.15219595]

>>15219582
i already explained to you why it bothers me, because it's clearly incorrect, incoherent, and gets in the way of finding truth. they say "my free will led to this" and hilariously, think that qualifies as an explanation.

>"you wanted chocolate and chose chocolate because...free will"

i mean, come on. does that really satisfy you as an explanation? why are you not hungry for a complete explanation in terms of the foundational features of the universe, like i am?

[Anonymous No.15219597]

>>15219595
>it's clearly incorrect
So?

>gets in the way of finding truth
How?

[Anonymous No.15219605]

>>15219439
It’s pretty clear there are doubts about so called freedom of will. *shrugs*
People who believe very strong in free will are extremely defensive. Making threads constantly attempting to belittle those questioning their own assumptions

[Anonymous No.15219608]

>>15219597
>So?
i don't like incorrectness.
>How?
promotion of free will as an explanation is brainwashing people that we don't have to look for a real explanation.

[Anonymous No.15219610]

>>15219605
>It’s pretty clear there are doubts about so called freedom of will.
So? Why does it make certain people (like you, apparently) behave as described in OP?

[Anonymous No.15219613]

>>15219608
>i don't like incorrectness.
So? That doesn't explain your constant anger and obsession with this particular issue.

>promotion of free will as an explanation is brainwashing people
How?

>that we don't have to look for a real explanation.
Who is stopping you from pursuing your "explanations"?

[Anonymous No.15219614]

>>15219610
OP is straw manning a position as a defense of his own beliefs. And you agree with OP apparently

[Anonymous No.15219616]

>>15219614
>OP is straw manning a position
What position is he strawmanning?

[Anonymous No.15219619]

Let's turn this into an empirical study.

State your stance on free will, your vaccination status and your IQ.

[Anonymous No.15219622]

>>15219619
>self-reporting on IQ
I have no confidence in your methods.

[Anonymous No.15219624]

>>15219622
We're all anonymous here. There's no incentive for people to lie about their IQ.

[Anonymous No.15219625]

>>15219613
>So? That doesn't explain your constant anger and obsession with this particular issue.
it does, but i also explained earlier my frustration of having an unpleasant life. i don't know why you care so much when the motives are irrelevant. you look at sabine and sam harris, these determinists are satisfied with their lives (unlike me), so it's pointless to try and look for some 'suspicious motive' as if you're some kind of detective. you won't find such a thing.
>How?
it convinces naive people that they don't need to look further than their "free will" for why we get the outcomes that we do.
>Who is stopping you from pursuing your "explanations"?
complicated question. no one i can name individually. i am pursuing it as best as i can, thankfully there is a community of people with sensible ideas, although it is shockingly small.

[Anonymous No.15219631]

>>15219625
>my frustration of having an unpleasant life
So you are frothing at the mouth against people who believe they have free will because your life is miserable?

>it convinces naive people that they don't need to look further
So? If someone listens to an argument, it resonates with them and they become convinced, why is this "brainwashing"?

>complicated question. no one i can name
That's because obviously, no one is hampering your supposed search for truth and your rationale has nothing to do with the true causes of your behavior.

[Anonymous No.15219632]

>>15219616
If you question free will, you are frothing at the mouth and should not be taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.15219636]

>>15219632
>If you question free will, you are frothing at the mouth
He never said or implied this. He merely stated that certain people behave that way and narrowed the discussion down to them. How come you feel so personally attacked? :^)

[Anonymous No.15219639]

>>15219636
It’s clear you aren’t being sincere. But you also did the attacking here
>>15219610
>like you, apparently

[Anonymous No.15219641]

>>15219631
ok, i think i'm finished with entertaining you. the takeaway for you is: no, i won't stop calling out the bullshit peddled by free will shills, and calling it out not only satisfies me emotionally, it also helps to remind people that there are still people out there looking for real explanations for this thing called existence.

[Anonymous No.15219646]

Where are these determinist zealots? Are they in the room with you right now, OP?

[Anonymous No.15219649]

>>15219639
Your paranoia and uncalled for defensiveness exposes you.

[Anonymous No.15219651]

>>15219646
i'm right here. there's nothing wrong with being zealous about the truth, especially when so many deny it.

[Anonymous No.15219652]

>>15219649
There’s no point in a disingenuous conversation. But I’m not being defensive at all. Sorry you feel that way

[Anonymous No.15219653]

>>15219641
How come your kind is so extremely averise to basic self-reflection? The only takeout from your posts is:
>my frustration of having an unpleasant life
The rest is a load of bull, by your own admission. No one is hampering your supposed quest for truth or brainwashing people.

[Anonymous No.15219655]

>>15219652
>There’s no point in a disingenuous conversation.
What am I being disingenuous about? If you don't behave that way, why are you here and why are you seething?

[Anonymous No.15219661]

>>15219651
Are you sure you're not just a sockpuppet of OP?

[Anonymous No.15219668]

>>15219661
You sound like you're having another episode. The cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming.

[Anonymous No.15219670]

>>15219655
Why are you constantly stating what other people are feeling with no basis? It’s not genuine at all. If you feel that you are engaging sincerely, feel free to ask a question related to the topic and I’ll do my best to answer

[Anonymous No.15219676]

>>15219668
You're clearly projecting but arguing with your sockpuppet accounts on this obscure image board is surely not good for your mental health

[Anonymous No.15219678]

>>15219670
Look, I don't care about your mental illness. I started this thread to discuss a particular sort of behavior. I don't know why you felt personally attacked, but if you have nothing to contribute, you can always just stop posting and hide this thread instead of foaming at the mouth and bumping it. :^)

[Anonymous No.15219681]

>>15219676
You're legit mentally ill. Just stop posting.

[Anonymous No.15219685]

>>15219678
I don’t feel personally attacked (for the 3rd time?)
It is ironic though, to make a thread about this subject. Pure projection

[Anonymous No.15219687]

>>15219685
>I don’t feel personally attacked
Then why did you respond to this thread and why do you keep seething and replying to me?

[Anonymous No.15219698]

>>15219681
Either way, these determinist zealots clearly don't exist so you should take your antipsychotic medication asap.

[Anonymous No.15219699]

>>15219687
I’m bored, idk.
You okay bud?

[Anonymous No.15219700]

>>15219698
>these determinist zealots clearly don't exist
Then why are you losing your mind over it in this thread?

[Anonymous No.15219703]

>>15219698
you sound like you don't believe in determinism, aka how reality works. what do YOU believe?

[Anonymous No.15219711]

>>15219703
You sound like you are having a psychotic episode just like your buddy, whom you are attacking for no clear reason despite his obviously being a free will denier. lol

[Anonymous No.15219712]

>>15219711
That’s not me. That’s another anon he’s replying to

[Anonymous No.15219716]

>>15219712
>another mentally ill and incoherent response from a free will denier
I think I'm starting to see the pattern here. :^)

[Anonymous No.15219724]

>>15219716
Anon posting 4 way in 1 on 1 convos is a nightmare indeed. Mods nuke this dumpster fire

[Anonymous No.15219725]

we already had a determinism bait thead on page 1, why make a new one?

[Anonymous No.15219727]

>>15219724
How about you simply take your meds? I never said you were anybody, and I don't know who you are clarifying that you aren't.

[Anonymous No.15219728]

>>15219725
I have severe mental illness and schizophrenia. Please understand :^)

[Anonymous No.15219731]

>>15219711
he never denied free will, he's denying "determinists zealots". please learn to read.

[Anonymous No.15219735]

>>15219727
I love talking about determinism. Ask me a question

[Anonymous No.15219741]

It's an interesting philosophical discussion and one which most directly concerns practical matters in everyday life. I used to be a hard determinist (still am but used to too) and I think part of what motivated it was the realization of the limits of my will. Reflecting on my life I would keep track of when I pursued some major new project, and it was typically either because I had an inner drive due to my personality, I was exposed to some new ideas / perspectives which shaped my expectations of what is possible, or I was in a particular environment conducive to these behaviors. The importance of good genetics, family, peers, and education cannot be understated.

As I grew older I viewed free will more as a useful fiction. Ideas have effects, and it's advantageous to believe the idea that your actions matter and you can choose to delay gratification, eat healthy, exercise, study, and invest for the future. On a subjective level it feels like you can choose to focus your attention on certain things like developing your discipline or cultivating certain mindsets, though this may just be some kind of illusory epiphenomenon. I don't actually believe that if we could rewind the universe people would behave differently given exactly the same conditions, so in that sense it would still be deterministic. Some feral child with no concept of these philosophical discussions is very much stuck in an animalistic state, and their brain irrevocably altered by the lack of linguistic development and exposure to culture.

Maybe due to quantum weirdness things really are probabilistic at the bottom, though I don't see why random fluctuations would really give you freedom of will. Ultimately we seem to be extremely complex biological neural networks, and for some mysterious reason we also have experience and sensations along for the ride.

[Anonymous No.15219745]

>>15219735
I don't care about your worldview. Feel free to answer the questions posed in the OP.

[Anonymous No.15219746]

>>15219741
>I don't see why random fluctuations would really give you freedom of will.
They wouldn’t necessarily give you free will but they are a minimum condition of it. An independent action, dependent of all causes (randomness) is required for so called free will

[Anonymous No.15219747]

>>15219741
Thank you for expounding on your opinions, but that doesn't actually answer my question

[Anonymous No.15219755]

>>15219587
>science about science isn't meta-science
sure thing bro
>gödel has nothing to do with it
it's more tarski's bag, but gödel is who gets talked about

[Anonymous No.15219765]

>>15219746
I don't see how that would work either. If you used a random number generator to create a unique prompt to a neural network, it may behave in new ways or go on a divergent path. This seems to be more related to chaos and complexity though, like minor variations in the path down a fractal leading to extremely different outcomes.

[Anonymous No.15219773]

>>15219765
The key is independence of action. Which is also what randomness is. At minimum we would have to observe randomness for their to be hope that an action can be performed (freely) independent from a causal chain

[Anonymous No.15219783]

>>15219773
I understand what you're saying, but I still don't see how it would mechanistically work. How would quantum noise percolate up to give you a true sense of free will? Makes more sense that it would just be allowing you to get out of a local optima, giving rise to more dynamic and divergent behavior.

[Anonymous No.15219790]

>>15219783
Well I’m not saying it would. But it’s a minimum requirement. We would have to observe that action can be performed outside of causality (randomness) for their to be any hope of free will actually existing. Feeling free will exists is another matter, and there is no denying that we feel that way (under certain conditions)

[Anonymous No.15219797]

>>15219773
>independence of action. Which is also what randomness is
nta - was the big bang an independent event?

[Anonymous No.15219800]

>>15219466
FUCK OFF POST MODERNIST SHILL REEEEE

[Anonymous No.15219802]

>>15219773
independence of action is not what i consider freedom. i consider freedom to be the ability to have done otherwise.

[Anonymous No.15219807]

>>15219553
>Saturnalia

>M. Avodah Zarah (the name of a tractate of the Talmud) lists Saturnalia as a "festival of the gentiles."
>In the Jerusalem Talmud, Avodah Zarah claims the etymology of Saturnalia is שנאה טמונה śinʾâ ṭǝmûnâ "hidden hatred," and refers to the hatred Esau, whom the Rabbis believed had fathered Rome.

[Anonymous No.15219812]

>>15219802
That is choice, or uncertainty of action. A burp if you will. There’s no freedom in choice

[Anonymous No.15219844]

>>15219439
It's usually the same sort of people who promote anti-natalism, ramble with glee about how AI is going to make people useless in two more weeks, cry about overpopulation and constantly try to convert people into some kiddie variation of nihilism. They are spiteful mutants. They are miserable people with miserable and meaningless lives (usually due to shit genetics) trying to spread their misery and bring everyone down to their level.

[Anonymous No.15219860]

>>15219812
do you believe we could have done otherwise for any given behaviour?

[Anonymous No.15219868]

>>15219860
If you could travel back in time, you could do otherwise. How else can you answer that question?

[Anonymous No.15219874]

>>15219868
>If you could travel back in time, you could do otherwise.
define "travel back in time". do you mean rewind the universe to its exact former state, or head into the past with your present understanding via some hypothetical time travel?

[Anonymous No.15219880]

>>15219874
How else can you do otherwise for something that has already happened?
I don’t think time travel is possible btw

[Anonymous No.15219882]

>>15219880
you didn't answer the question, which do you mean?

[Anonymous No.15219885]

>>15219844
>straw man
>strawman
>strawman
>strawman
>strawman
maybe one day you will muster up the courage for a real opinion

[Anonymous No.15219887]

>>15219882
You’d have to do the latter

[Anonymous No.15219890]

>>15219885
Which of the following do you believe in?
>anti-natalism is rationally and morally compelling
>AI will replace humans soon
>overpopulation is a pressing issue
>life is inherently meaningless

[Anonymous No.15219891]

>>15219887
why would you have to do the latter?

[Anonymous No.15219895]

>>15219890
all of them are objectively correct and anyone who thinks otherwise is a schizo christcuck

[Anonymous No.15219898]

>>15219895
Called it. It's like clockwork. It all just goes together in the spiteful mutant opinion package from of popular midwit culture.

[Anonymous No.15219902]

>>15219890
>anti-natalism is rationally and morally compelling
no
>AI will replace humans soon
in many fields yes
>overpopulation is a pressing issue
no
>life is inherently meaningless
no

[Anonymous No.15219906]

>>15219895
>>15219898
you are literally arguing with yourself to make yourself look better, fucking hilarious

this is me
>>15219902
>>15219885
and I am not coming back to this thread, schizo

[Anonymous No.15219914]

>>15219906
>you are literally arguing with yourself
Take your meds already.

[Anonymous No.15219917]

by the way determinism and a divine power are far from mutually exclusive

actually I will envoke laplace’s demon and say that everything is part of a divine plan

to say you are misanthropic, anti-natalist, etc because you understand the compelling arguments determinism puts forth is strawman bullshit thats all

[Anonymous No.15219921]

>>15219902
yes, yes, yes and yes. you are in the cope stage of mourning

[Anonymous No.15219935]

>>15219917
So according to you, your beliefs are motivated by being a loser and having a miserable life (as you state earleir ITT), and by some Pavlovian reaction against some religious boogeyman?

[Anonymous No.15219939]

>>15219921
you are likely anti-natalist and nihilistic because you have never felt the warm touch of a woman

be honest am I wrong?

[Anonymous No.15219945]

>>15219935
>So according to you, your beliefs are motivated by being a loser and having a miserable life (as you state earleir ITT)
what the fuck are you even talking about? you are deeply confused right now possibly mistaking me for another anon so I don’t care to even talk about this nonsensical question
>Pavlovian reaction against some religious boogeyman?
oh this will be rich, please explain the link between what I said and classical conditioning

[Anonymous No.15219948]

>>15219939
>you have never felt the warm touch of a woman
1. not an argument
2. neither have you (>>15219559)

[Anonymous No.15219952]

>>15219948
it was a good try buddy but accept your loss and move on

[Anonymous No.15219953]

>>15219945
>please explain the link between what I said and classical conditioning
Why did you sperg about about "divine power"?

[Anonymous No.15219959]

>>15219952
i don't know if you're a christcuck but you might as well be since you agree with them on everything (besides free will?). i don't know anyone with a high IQ (>115) who disagrees with basic facts like overpopulation and the objective meaninglessness of existence

[Anonymous No.15219960]

>>15219891
Because if you replicate the state you will get the same result

[Anonymous No.15219963]

>>15219960
ok then, so you deny libertarian free will. based.

[Anonymous No.15219976]

>>15219959
>i don't know anyone with a high IQ
the first thing you have said thus far that makes any sense at all

[Anonymous No.15219985]

>>15219976
fuck off with your religion. humans aren't special. human life isn't special. there is no objective difference between you, a snail and a rock

[Anonymous No.15220031]

>>15219439
Determinism and a sense of agency are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's just that in determinism this agency comes from real events inside the real agent while in "free will" they make up some magical soul that can't be measured and has no measureable effect on anything yet still somehow makes all human decisions

[Anonymous No.15220035]

>>15219985
>there is no objective difference between you, a snail and a rock
except for the billions of objective differences

[Anonymous No.15220049]

>>15220031
Okay, but notice how you and your buddies automatically start to ramble about your opinions and fail to actually address my question.

[Anonymous No.15220063]

>>15220049
I did answer your question before by explaining the founding premise of the question is incorrect. It's a loaded wuestion like "when did you stop beating your wife?" Determinism only means that people's brain also follows the laws of physics. Now answer my question: where is this magical soul that is immeasureable and produces no measureable impact in a person's brain or body that purportedly makes all the decisions?
To answer your loaded question directly, though, I actually used to believe in free will but after seeing you spam all these threads and realizing these are the types of people who believe in free will, I made sure to switch sides.

[Anonymous No.15220067]

>>15220063
>the founding premise of the question is incorrect
What's the incorrect founding premise of my question? Quote it in your next post. LOL

[Anonymous No.15220069]

>>15220067
Not until you answer my question. Note that I did answer your question directly in the next paragraph.

[Anonymous No.15220077]

>>15220069
Your zealotry is seriously eroding what little grasp on reality you may have had. Why are you asking me about magical souls? I never said anything about them.

[Anonymous No.15220091]

>>15220077
Then explain where free will comes from. The brain follows a physics-based set of chemical reactions

[Anonymous No.15220095]

>>15220091
I don't really care to discuss your opinions. I accept your answer that your opinions and behavior are an emotional reaction against people who upset you on the internet. It was also nice of you to go out of your way and demonstrate that you're seriously delusional by lashing out at me about magic and souls.

[Anonymous No.15220106]

>>15220095
You are the one posting 24/7 about this and refreshing all your threads for hours. So if anyone is obsessed and delusional it's you. Note that you literally cannot justify your position. Anyway I will stop replying with you after this

[Anonymous No.15220110]

>>15220106
>realizing these are the types of people who believe in free will, I made sure to switch sides
I accept your answer. Your opinion and behavior are based on extreme butthurt, based on your own words.

[Anonymous No.15220220]

>>15219439
I don't understand how free will deniers have a concept of consent/rape

[Anonymous No.15220266]

>>15220220
If her particles were predetermined to get arranged into a no-consent state and your particles were predetermined to get arranged into a do-it-anyway state, then some people's particles were predetermined to get arranged into the deeply-upset state so the laws of physics cause their particles to push your particles into the arrangement of particles called prison. Nothing personnel, kid.

[Anonymous No.15220281]

Free will is fake and gay. Only homos and retards insist upon it.

[Anonymous No.15220282]

>>15220281
Okay, but what's causing you to froth at the mouth and lash out about it continually?

[Anonymous No.15220299]

>>15220282
Bro, I'm cool as a cucumber. But what's causing YOU to keep making these threads advocating for it?

[Anonymous No.15220308]

>>15220299
>I'm cool as a cucumber
Then why are you seething right now and replying?

>what's causing YOU to keep making these threads advocating for it?
Nothing. I've never started a thread advocating for it. You, like the rest of your buddies ITT, are showing clear signs of delusional psychosis.

[Anonymous No.15220316]

>>15220308
He's right lol, free will advocates are the most unsufferable cunts to ever grace the interwebs and you're not helping your cause by furthering this tradition

[Anonymous No.15220318]

>>15220308
>Then why are you seething right now and replying?
I'm having a ball, bro! Just doing the dance.

>>15220308
>I've never started a thread advocating for it.
lololololololololololololol

[Anonymous No.15220323]

>>15220318
Maybe you should write "lol" 20-30 more times, just to really drive the point home how you're not losing your mind with rage.

[Anonymous No.15220332]

>>15220323
dude you're seething so hard rn just close the thread and have a drink bro it's aight

[Anonymous No.15220343]

>>15220332
Then how come I'm not the one hallucinating imaginary boogeymen and spamming "lol" a dozen times to show how totally-not-mad I am?

[Anonymous No.15220347]

>>15220323
>Maybe you should write "lol" 20-30 more times
I did that, but it thought my message was spam.
lolololololololol

[Anonymous No.15220348]

>>15219439
Free will is a obvious cope for people who cant handle lack of control. Even I need this illusion of a choice but these people obsess about this. The feeling of lack of control create stress in most humans and these people cope with this stress by denying reality.

[Anonymous No.15220354]

>>15220348
I don't know why this is so funny to me. Notice how every single out of you just breaks out in rage and starts reiterating its irrelevant and off-topic opinion.

[Anonymous No.15220359]

>>15220308
I knew you would be here posting threads about this. Seek professional help and take your medicine.

[Anonymous No.15220361]

>>15220354
You are projecting. You cant argue reality away no matter how hard you try.

[Anonymous No.15220373]

@15220359
@15220361
What causes this kind of emotional derangement? Over a hundred posts of irrelevant spam and yet we are no closer to the answer.

[Anonymous No.15220386]

>>15220373
Maybe the 5th or 60th thread about this topic will convince rest of the world about your cope.

[Anonymous No.15220393]

>>15220373
I don't know what's more impressive: your negritude, homoeroticism, or retardation!

[Anonymous No.15220397]

@15220386
@15220393
Why do they keep lashing out at imaginary enemies? What reduces a person into this?

[Anonymous No.15220398]

>>15220266
>a no-consent state
what does that mean though?

[Anonymous No.15220406]

>>15220398
It means her particles are arranged in such a way that the laws of physics will cause her to cry and scream when you penetrate her.

[Anonymous No.15220413]

>>15219462
I directly answered the question with an example about myself which is the only way I can answer the question because I can't read minds

OPs post is just a thinly veiled anti determinism post anyway, the same exact kind of post they're purporting to dislike. This is OPs peabrain post in a nutshell
> stop arguing over determinism vs anti determinism you guys
> why is determinism so gay?

[Anonymous No.15220417]

>>15220406
not under contemporary definitions of rape and consent violation. Shit definition, care to try again?

[Anonymous No.15220422]

>>15219462
your post doesn't even make sense.

[Anonymous No.15220430]

>>15220417
>not under contemporary definitions of rape and consent violation.
That's because they are based on the retarded religious Christian concept of free will. Humanity needs to evolve past that and redefine rape objectively in terms of particle interactions.

[Anonymous No.15220432]

>>15220422
His post makes some sense.

[Anonymous No.15220436]

[Anonymous No.15220459]

>>15220436
This is you, OP. You're the cat in the box.

[Anonymous No.15220460]

>>15220459

[Anonymous No.15220462]

>>15220459
>another incoherent and mentally ill post
Like clockwork.

[Anonymous No.15220482]

>>15220462
>Like clockwork
Just like determinism. ;)

[Anonymous No.15220980]

Goddamn you, OP! When I saw this thread, I got so pissed off I almost rammed my fist through the monitor. What the fuck are you doing on a SCIENCE board if you reject determinism? You better hope you never run into me in a dark alley.... Get the fuck off our board!!!!

[Anonymous No.15221455]

>>15219439

They can't face the fact that they exist as pure will and therefore own all responsibility for their life. Call it existential anxiety. They would rather hide behind false facticity. Cowards, essentially.

>>15219439
My post from other thread is relevant here:

>>15214982

It is obvious at this point that something exists beyond the material universe. Your existence as consciousness is proof. You are the force existing outside the material world. We can never understand exactly what we are because there is no subject -object relationship with regards to viewing ourselves.

Basically,
>You exist
>You are not material
>Ergo the material universe is not fundamental

This is the truth and there is nothing more to it. Everything else is just noise. Materialists hate this because they formed an identity with this material world vis a vis their brain (ego) and cannot face the reality that material is not fundamental.

This reality also happens to completely align with the concept of God, but I'll leave that for others to discuss.

[Anonymous No.15222922]

Bump

[Anonymous No.15222933]

>167 posts
>22 posters
maybe OP has a point

[Anonymous No.15223576]

>>15219466
2=2 is a truth and little Sally having two muffins then deciding to eat one leaving her with one. What mental lightweights struggle with is this blossoming out and when NOT to apply it because it scares them.

[Anonymous No.15223581]

>>15219439
Free will means negative outcomes are (at least partially) your own fault

[Anonymous No.15223606]

>>15219439
Hypocritical troll post

[Anonymous No.15224732]

>>15223581

They can't handle this. Free will actually means that every moment of your life is your responsibility. They are scared to face this fact.

[Anonymous No.15226629]

>>15223606
>Hypocritical troll post
If it doesn't accurately describe you, why did you feel a compulsion to write sine seethe?

[Anonymous No.15226641]

I used to believe in free will but then I learned about superdeterminism. Maybe free will isn't as free as we thought.

[Anonymous No.15226643]

>>15226641
>superdeterminism

[Anonymous No.15226654]

>>15226643
Your seething reply was deterministically predictable.

[Anonymous No.15226657]

>>15226654
Your emotionally-motivated subscription to unfalsifiable pseudoscience was predicted by OP.

[Anonymous No.15226725]

>>15224732
I can’t say either way but as a betting man, I’d bet it’s more likely free will believers are scared to face the fact that they are not in control

[Anonymous No.15226738]

>>15226725
>I’d bet it’s more likely free will believers are scared
Irrelevant deflection. Why free will believers believe what they believe has no bearing on the reasons for your irrational and pathological behavior.

[Anonymous No.15226750]

>>15219439
>Let's suppose that they are right. In and of itself, that doesn't explain their obsessive zeal

it literally does, anon

ying and yang and all that shit

[Anonymous No.15226753]

>>15226750
Why does being supposedly right about something make you behave like a fearful religious zealot?

[Anonymous No.15227259]

>181 posts for 27 posters
OP really has no free will kek. He sees the replies, the feel good chemicals spike and he auto responds. Like a rat in a box

[Anonymous No.15227262]

>>15227259
Thanks for bumping my thread. I had forgotten about it. So, do you have any explanation for your irrational zealotry?

[Anonymous No.15227420]

>>15219462
What you call religious zeal is intolerance to emotional arguments without logic.

[Anonymous No.15227427]

>>15227420
>What you call religious zeal is intolerance to [negative charecterization of a view I disagree with]
Stripping away irrelevant tripe:
>What you call religious zeal is intolerance
And the "intolerance" in question is described in OP. The question is what would compel someone to act like an irrational, seething animal. Such behavior is typical of religious zealots, specifically when they feel threatened and have no intellectual recourse.

[Anonymous No.15227433]

>>15219472

[Anonymous No.15227435]

>>15227433
How come your kind is so resistant to basic self-reflection?

[Anonymous No.15227439]

>>15227435
>How come your kind is so resistant to basic self-reflection?
Not an argument.

[Anonymous No.15227440]

>>15219439
>Anyone with a modicum of intellect eventually gets bored of the endless determinism/free will debate and starts to ask some questions on a meta level
Interesting maybe there will be some actual discussion here.
>what motivates certain people to continually froth at the mouth and try to convince others that they have no true agency?
Oh no.
>What kind of people do this, and why are they like that? :^)
Uh oh.

Well, this will just be another schizo thread full of ad hominem and no real arguments from OP.

[Anonymous No.15227441]

>>15227439
What argument? I just asked you a question.

[Anonymous No.15227443]

>>15227440
>this will just be another schizo thread full of ad hominem and no real arguments
I know. Most of the respondents are naturally going to be mouth-frothers like you. We've already established that they do NOT like getting called out.

[Anonymous No.15227531]

>>15227441
Not an argument.
I am not here to entertain you faggot, say whatever your argument is so it can be discussed and proved wrong.

[Anonymous No.15227559]

>>15227443
>from OP.
Like clockwork you could say.