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/sci/ - Science & Math

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11571706 No.11571706 [Reply] [Original]

Can animals actually feel emotions or are we just projecting emotions onto them?

>> No.11571710

Of course they can. They have brains. Differences between humans and non-human animals are arbitrary. Are you dumb? I don't think a person who isn't dumb would have to ask this question.

>> No.11571720

>>11571706
Animals, at least mammals and birds, have emotions, subjective preferences, consciousness, and even rudimentary language. Many animals have shown the ability to count.

>> No.11571722

>>11571706
No, animals are just automatons. They don't have a mind so there's no mind-body interaction to generate emotions.

>> No.11571730

>>11571720
>Animals, at least mammals and birds, have emotions, subjective preferences, consciousness, and even rudimentary language.
I've heard of whales and dolphins doing this, but not birds. What species?
>Many animals have shown the ability to count.
Ravens, right?
>>11571710
No, I'm not dumb. I'm not sure if you noticed, but humans tend to personify things. Animals aren't any different.

>> No.11571741

>>11571730
>No, I'm not dumb
You are, dumbfuck.

>> No.11571745

This question assumes that human beings are somehow some separate class of entity from the rest of the animal kingdom, which obviously isn't true. Human beings evolved to their current state in a gradient of what we'd argue is increasing emotional complexity. Unless you think that human evolution suddenly and universally clicked the "Emotion" button on at some arbitrary time, then emotional development was progressive, not instantaneous.

What you define as "Emotion" might have some level of ambiguity to it, but there's literally no reason to suspect that animals with relatively broad mental functionality don't experience things that we would certainly classify as emotion. "Distress" is an emotion. "Fear" is an emotion. "Joy" is an emotion. Anyone who's ever owned a pet or spent three minutes watching animals do things on Youtube knows that animals besides humans feel emotion.

Can an ant feel emotion? Probably not, in our relative understanding of the term. But human beings are just another kind of species. Emotional behavior is observable across the animal kingdom.

>> No.11571747
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11571747

>> No.11571749

>>11571722

Solipsism is a meme.

>> No.11571755

>>11571749
I'm not advocating for solipsism. It's verifiable fact that humans have minds and non-humans don't.

>> No.11571757

>>11571755
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYBATyILJD8

>> No.11571761

>>11571755

Define a "Mind," because the argument that animals don't feel emotion is absurd. Human beings are literally animals. That's one example confirmed. Extrapolating to other species is not a jump whatsoever, especially when the behavior characteristic of emotional reaction is blatantly observable.

>> No.11571764

>>11571747
:(

>> No.11571766

They can feel pain and pleasure which is all what emotions are.

>> No.11571771

>>11571749
>>11571757
>>11571761
The anon you are replying to is shitposting. He knows he is wrong. Obviously non-human animals are conscious.

>> No.11571775

>>11571757
Non-humans can have brains. That's different from having a mind with an internal experience. A robot can be programmed to use tools to make tools as well - we wouldn't say the robot has a mind.
>>11571761
>Define a "Mind,"
An immaterial substance responsible for consciousness and all the self-experience that comes with it.
>Human beings are literally animals.
That does not mean we do not have unique traits, of course. A mind is one of them.
>Extrapolating to other species is not a jump whatsoever
It's the largest jump in the world.

>> No.11571776

>>11571745
>What you define as "Emotion" might have some level of ambiguity to it, but there's literally no reason to suspect that animals with relatively broad mental functionality don't experience things that we would certainly classify as emotion. "Distress" is an emotion. "Fear" is an emotion. "Joy" is an emotion.
So animals can feel basic emotions, but not the complex ones.

>> No.11571784

I can't believe how many retards have fallen for that "animals are sentient" meme. Animals have no self awareness, they are just biological machines. Much like a human baby, btw, I didn't "feel" anything during the first couple of years of my life so there is no reason to believe that animals are sentient in any shape or form. But keep spreading vegan propaganda, that's fine by me.

>> No.11571791

>>11571784
>sentient
By your definition of sentient a lot of humans don't either.

>> No.11571793

>>11571775
You believe in the Bible, right?

>> No.11571801

>>11571775
>An immaterial substance responsible for consciousness and all the self-experience that comes with it.

There is literally no reason to suspect that what enables and governs the experience of a conscious entity is not an immaterial substance. You have no evidence to show that this is the case. What constitutes human consciousness is the result of a physical system and its interactions.

>>11571775
>That does not mean we do not have unique traits, of course. A mind is one of them.

Your definition of "Mind" is arbitrary and baseless.

>> No.11571804

>>11571801

*an immaterial substance. Of course I write literally the exact opposite of what I meant.

>> No.11571808

>>11571791
Maybe you're right, but that's unknowable. Since they are the same species as me, I assume all people are sentient, bar some obvious exceptions (insane people, vegetables, babies, etc)

>> No.11571809

>>11571784
>they are just biological machines

So are you.

>> No.11571819

>>11571784
>I didn't "feel" anything during the first couple of years of my life
Yes you did, you just don't remember it.
Anyone who says animals don't have emotions has an underdeveloped brain, not only incapable of properly self-assessing their own neurological form, but also incapable of envisioning the interior traits of similar brains and behaviors.

When I see a bird fly away from a larger bird going to eat it, I know it is scared because otherwise it would accept death. Similarly, I know that I would do the same if a human came at me with a knife, and I also know most humans would run from or at least react to knife-wielding killers. If I wasn't afraid of maniacs chopping me into pieces, and instead had no emotional reaction at all, why would I run? If you say "instinct", you're retarded, because my instinct is to feel fear. Emotion is what compels animals to act in certain ways.

>> No.11571833
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11571833

>11571801
>There is literally no reason to suspect that what enables and governs the experience of a conscious entity is not [a material] substance. You have no evidence to show that this is the case.

>> No.11571836

>>11571771

This board is full of fucking morons. Shitposting or not, there's a large number of people here who genuinely believe the stupid shit they post.

>> No.11571848

>>11571833

Reaction images with blank stares don't make you any less presumptive. Provide literally any shred of evidence suggesting that what constitutes a human experience is incapable of being produced from the distribution of matter and energy that is human brain and nervous system.

Are you the kind of person who thinks souls exist?

>> No.11571849

>>11571809
Yes, but I am more than that and they are not

>> No.11571851

>>11571848
>Provide literally any shred of evidence suggesting that what constitutes a human experience is incapable of being produced from the distribution of matter and energy that is human brain and nervous system.
Any person with an internal experience already knows this to be true.
>Are you the kind of person who thinks souls exist?
Define "soul".

>> No.11571861

>>11571808
>Since they are the same species as me
Species to a scientist is whether to animals can produce fertile offspring. To a layman it is how similar two walking blobs of meat appear to be. Life exists on a gradient of similarity. We are complex composite beings made from all kinds of smaller parts, not things that exist in our own right and own way.

Humans to other primates to reptiles to fish is a sliding scale, unless you believe in Noah's Ark or some bullshit. Animal brains are a sliding scale as well, and we are just on the complex end of it. There is no reason to believe any hard black-and-white threshold for a brain function as large and nebulous as emotion. Even within humanity there is no "totally smart" and "totally stupid," but instead we have IQ and similar things, which are gradients rather than hard starts and stops.

>> No.11571862

>>11571819
Having physiological responses to external stimuli and actually experiencing them are two different things. Also, if I don't remember something, then I didn't experience it, simple as that. It may have still happened, my body might have still responded to it but unless I remember it, I am no better than an animal. And before you say it, memory is a necessary but not sufficient condition for sentience.

>> No.11571865

>>11571861
>There is no reason to believe any hard black-and-white threshold for a brain function as large and nebulous as emotion.
I agree, but emotions aren't brain functions so it's kind of a moot point.

>> No.11571868

>>11571849

"More" than what? This entire thread is asking if animals can feel emotions, that's it. Nothing is being asked about the complexity of those emotions, merely their existence to begin with.

>> No.11571876

>>11571851
>Any person with an internal experience already knows this to be true.

Then why do I not agree with you? Literally nothing about any of my experiences as a sentient being and the knowledge humanity harbors about the nature of the universe causes a contradiction in stating non-humans can feel emotions.

>>11571851
>Define "soul".

Leave the thread if you're gonna start spitting religious or spiritual garbage.

>> No.11571879

>>11571861
Intelligence is definitely on a scale, but sentience is pretty binary, you either have it or you don't.

And we are the species with by far the most complex brain out there, so I'd say that separating by species is pretty important lol.

>> No.11571882

>>11571862
If you forget what you did a few days ago, then you become an animal that day? If you forget a dream you had you are a less sentient creature? Are you literally retarded?

>physiological responses
The response is occurring in their brain. It is up to you to prove that human brains have a magical connection to the 10th dimension (or whatever superstition) and animal brains don't. If you take drugs, your brain physiology changes, and your internal experience does as well.

>> No.11571883

This thread is dumb

>> No.11571888
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11571888

>11571876
>>Any person with an internal experience already knows this to be true.
>Then why do I not agree with you?

>> No.11571893

>>11571706
Anyone who thinks animals don't have emotions should take their bullshit to /x/ or /his/. Its clear the only justifications for the position rely on unscientific "souls" and quantumly spiritual immaterial super-powered human minds.

>> No.11571895

>>11571747
Please tell me that's a meme bro...

>> No.11571899

>>11571893
>Its clear the only justifications for the position rely on unscientific "souls"
Why would consciousness be understandable by the very limited domain of science? Empiricism can only meaningfully be applied to a very small subset of problems.

>> No.11571901

>>11571895
No it's real

>> No.11571902

>>11571882
Not up to me to prove something that is unprovable anyway, only retards think that "it's been PROVEN" that animals are sentient, you can't prove or disprove that shit, you can only argue it.

I think it's pretty obvious that memory is a prerequisite for intelligence, if it's not obvious to you then you might reconsider yours, lol, until then you can keep twisting my words for all I care.

>> No.11571906

>>11571899
Why would the mind fall outside of that? You'd first have to show a disconnect between the mind and brain, which I've never seen

>> No.11571911

>>11571901
I refuse to believe that.

>> No.11571917

>>11571902
>I think it's pretty obvious that memory is a prerequisite for intelligence
>memory is a necessary but not sufficient condition for sentience
Nice show of your limited intelligence here. You said sentience, not intelligence. And please don't say those are the same. The internal conscious experience and appreciation of color, sound, touch, as well as having opinions, viewpoints, and emotions, does not change with intelligence. You may have wrong viewpoints, but the internal present experience of having them remains.

>> No.11571919

>>11571706
Not only do many animal species have emotions, but some animals have a higher stage of intellect which includes:
* Self-awareness: Elephans, octopi, corvids, African grey parrots, primates
* Technology: Dolphins have been known to improvise tools from their environment (sponges used to scavenge the oceanic soil without injuring themselves) and teach this knowledge to their offspring, literally the definition of technological transfer.
* Advanced problem solving skills: Primates, dolphins, elephants, corvids, parrots, cats, dogs, pigs
* Mourning: Elephants mourn their dead and visit grave sites for years afterwards
* Recreational sex: Dolphins have been proven to engage in sexual behaviour outside of mating seasons purely for recreational purposes
* Language skills: There are cases of African grey parrots and chimpanzees that have been taught thousands of Human words, not only that but they have been able to improvise and invent their own words, proving they understand the meanings behind them and aren't repeating. For instance, one chimpanzee came up with the sign language "green banana" to ask for green apples.

Since it is a well-known fact chimpanzees have the intellectual capabilities of a four or five year old it is obvious they also have emotions.
This thread is retarded.

>> No.11571925

>>11571917
Well, memory is a necessary condition for both of them, I would think that you didn't need me to repeat that in two posts, but I guess I overestimated your intelligence lol. Keep digging in my words, you might find something!

>> No.11571929

>>11571706
Read The Animal Mind: An Introduction to the Philosophy of Animal Cognition

>> No.11571967

>>11571925
My point, which you have missed, is that internal experience of the present moment continues regardless of whether you remember it. It was in response to this
>I didn't "feel" anything during the first couple of years of my life
>Also, if I don't remember something, then I didn't experience it
Which is tying memory to whether you did or did not experience something. Do you remember typing this?
My point is that internal conscious experience of a present moment and the feelings which go along with it have happened regardless of whether you remember it later on. When you get Alzheimer's, the history of your internal experience isn't objectively rewritten, only subjectively forgotten. You still felt things, even if you don't remember it.

>> No.11571975

>>11571706
all animals have is emotions, what they don't have is our logic. emotions are a behavioral control matrix for critters.

>> No.11571984

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ihC6QHS_m0

>> No.11572014

>>11571984
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYWSXRUGxDQ
3:16

Chimp comes up with the word "water bird" to say "swan", a word he hadn't been taught.

>> No.11572017

>>11571706
These STEM guys won't know. The only science they know is physics and chemistry.

>> No.11572050

>>11572014
>facilitated communication
pseudo/sci/entists need to leave.

>> No.11572089

>>11572050
Under equal conditions African greys can outperform three year old humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG-0Bpe0J34
This is not even under dispute anymore.

>> No.11572095

>>11572089
Three year olds can't use language in the way we understand it either.

>> No.11572106

>>11572095
They have emotions which is what this thread is about.

>> No.11572121

>>11572106
A chimp coming up with "water bird" doesn't have any relevance to whether a chimp has emotions. A neural net can come up with a classification for cats without ever being told what a cat is, doesn't mean it has emotions.

>> No.11572130

>>11572121
It shows a high degree of intellect which is necessary for complex emotions.

The gorillas on the first video I posted also convey quite a lot of emotions if you bother to watch (>>11571984)

The last gorilla even recounts the murder of his parents interlaced with the sign language for "sad" and "trouble-face"

>> No.11572131

>>11572121
If you watched the video you'd see that primates who know sign language can talk about their emotions as well.

>> No.11572202

>>11572131
>>11572130
Which brings us back to >>11572014
>facilitated communication
pseudo/sci/entists need to leave.

>> No.11572253
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11572253

Do aboriginals have emotions and souls?

They're literally as dumb as animals and they sleep on the street and sometimes people run over them because they slept on the middle of the road.

And they sniff petrol.

I think they're not humans but an ancestral human specie that survived to modern era.

>> No.11572466

>>11571706
Of course they do. Emotions are primal in nature. What separates humans from animals is that we can use our consciousness to override our emotions. We don’t go berserk and kill someone just because you’re angry, for most people anyways.

>> No.11573697

>>11571706
Yes.

>> No.11573743

>>11571876
>then why do I not agree with you?
Because you are a literal NPC

>> No.11573797

>>11571730
>but humans tend to personify things

But why would you assume that emotions are specific to humans in the first place? Like, things evolved for millions and millions of years, developing core drives that give them incentives to seek out nourishment, reproduce and care for their offsprings etc. but wait, all of this just occurred through 'blind' systems that didn't really feel anything, then you know what happened, humans popped up and we could feel things for the first time. Our feelings just happened to correspond to these same drives that motivated animals before us, but all that was just a coincidence, our emotions make us unique snowflakes for no reason.

You are going what's basically religious thinking.

>> No.11574103

>>11571911
Why?

>> No.11574115

>>11571706
Anyone who has pets knows animals have pretty much the full range of human emotions.

>> No.11574429

>>11573743
he´s not a playa?

>> No.11575137

>>11571720
>consciousness
How do you define that? How do you test for it?

>> No.11575140

>>11571706
Of course they have emotions. There might be a couple more refined emotions that they don't experience, but they certainly have all of the base emotions.

>> No.11575170

>>11571784
kys

>> No.11575173

>>11571706
It is impossible to prove that another being can feel emotions, but it seems a reasonable assumption...

>> No.11575183

>>11571784
And, being men of science, we know humans are just animals too, they are just biological machines. Nothing is self-aware, there's no reason to believe that humans are sentient in any shape or form.

>> No.11575188

>>11571899
Consciousness is only not to be understood empirically so long as you define it as a dichotomy. In reality consciousness is something that emerges gradually and is expressed in varying degrees.

>> No.11575220

>>11571861
High-IQ post
>>11571865
Low-IQ post. Obviously emotions are brain functions.
>>11571879
>sentience is pretty binary, you either have it or you don't
I don't think that's true, but I also don't know how you define sentience.

>> No.11575913

My cat purrs as soon as I get in proximity of him

And runs away when I get his straitjacket because he meows to go outside late at night, pleading to go out and kill all the birds at 3am

I guess that's not emotion

>> No.11575937

>>11571865

kek, moron