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/sci/ - Science & Math

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11350340 No.11350340 [Reply] [Original]

Do animals have consciousness? What's currently the official scientific consensus on that matter? If they do, how exactly does it differ from our own? And most importantly, should I be feeling bad when I'm eating meat for the taste and not to survive?

>> No.11350344

Is consciousness well defined? If it isn't then there's no way to answer this question.

>> No.11350358

Fag

>> No.11350556

>>11350340
>Consciousness
No
>Sentience and Sapience
Yes

You need speech to have true consciousness. The only animal that comes to mind (has both extreme intelligence and "language") are dolphins, and they are very debatable on the "consciousness" question.

>> No.11350578

>>11350556
But dogs can understand speech. At least a little more than just commands.
>>11350340
Animals dream. Wtf is consciousness really? Sounds like /x/ teir stuff.

>> No.11350595

>>11350340
>Do animals have consciousness?
Only a few of them do, most animals (arthropods, porifera, annelids, Platyhelminthes and maybe more) are little flesh robots who only react to outside stimuli like plants.

>> No.11350598

>>11350595
>little flesh robots who only react to outside stimuli like plants.
The same is true of scientistics who reject qualia.

>> No.11350599

>>11350556
Sapience requires consciousness and is only present in humans.
Consciousness and sentience are pretty much the same thing.

>> No.11350604

>>11350340
Yes they do. Everything has a soul. A barbell has a soul, it wants to be lifted and it wants you to get strong. A ball point pen has a soul, it wants you to write with it. A table has a soul, it wants to hold items for you.

My kitty likes to steal my plush animals and hide them around the house.

>> No.11350608

>>11350340
Every animal suffers and dies whether you eat them or not.

>> No.11350613

>>11350556
>deaf/mutes are not conscious
kek>>11350556
t

>> No.11350615

>>11350608
No they don't its called a clean kill. One shot every shot.

>> No.11350617

>>11350604
>souls
>>>/x/

>> No.11350618

>>11350595
Would you say pretty much anything with a similar brain structure to ours like mammals does?

>> No.11350620

>>11350617
Consciousness and souls are interchangable don't project your religion onto me.

>> No.11350621

>>11350615
That's not to say they never suffered before that. And there is likely at least a moment of suffering even then. Though it likely is the least painfull way an animal could die.

>> No.11350624

>>11350621
They don't suffer like us because an animal has no social expectation. Animals are objectively far happier than us. Even an elk being slowly consumed by a lion, that short length of suffering is nothing when compared to its lifetime of freedom.

>> No.11350627

>>11350618
Probably, but I'm not sure
>>11350620
They're not interchangeable, also it's funny you start complaining about religion while being the one who brings up a religious term in the first place.

>> No.11350638

>>11350340
Humans are animals.

>> No.11350652

>>11350638
Yeah, your mom is a monkey

>> No.11350656

>>11350652
He's right, do you think that humans are fungi or something, retard?

>> No.11350662

>>11350340
that cat, yes
an ant, probably not
between those two there is a fuzzy line somewhere that we haven't begun to chart

>> No.11350667

>>11350662
he’s asking if they’re sentient, all organisms with nervous systems are to a degree sentient and even those with something more primitive are still to a degree sentient. Sapience is limited to a very small number of animals with metacognitive functions and is not well defined in general.

>> No.11350703

>>11350340
A bunch of the atheists and theists itt cannot escape their inner religious tendencies to think that we are the chosen. This>>11350638 is the answer. If you have it, they have it.

>> No.11350751
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11350751

>>11350340

Yeah of course they do, the same we have in fact. But the cognitive abilities that supplement it are different, in some tasks they are better than us (like chimps actually have a better working memory than us) and in many other areas, animals are worse than us.

Think of someone with down syndrome. Do they have consciousness? It's the same question.

>> No.11350805

>>11350638
Based

>> No.11350862

>>11350578
Some dogs can even „talk“ back. There‘s a lady that set up a sound board and her dog uses it to speak with her. In one of the videos, the button for „beach“ broke and the dog pushed the buttons for „help water outside“ to tell her the button was broken.

>> No.11350882

>>11350340
Ive had opportunity to observe and domesticate stray cats.
From my experience the animal urges are simple and come above all else.
Eat,water,and shelter.
Once basic necessities are satisfied and they have steady supply of food and water you can tell the cat starts to behave differently and more sentient.
It understands what you want to do and what it wants to do.
Thats my theory at least,if you leave human alone in the wild he will come to animal status pretty quickly.

>> No.11351093

>>11350620
What is subconsciousness then?
>inb4 doesn't exist
The part of your brain that reacts to outsidd stimuli and makes you feel emotions by producing hormones unbeknowst to you. Does this just exist outside of your "soul" or What?

>> No.11351097

>>11350703
If they have it, why aren't they acting like it?

>> No.11351115

>>11350667
>he’s asking if they’re sentient
Yeah and most animals aren't complicated enough to be sentient.
They have no awareness and only react automatically to outside stimuli.

>> No.11351123
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11351123

>>11350340
Where I draw the line is that a human can realize that he/she is alive and understands what death is and moreover, he/she can kill him/herself. On the other hand an animal will never realize it is alive, will never understand what death is and will never take its own life.

>> No.11351132

I have a Siamese cat and she's very intelligent, different meows for different things and I understand them

>> No.11351152

>>11350556
>You need speech to have true consciousness.
Ridiculous - replace the word speech with any sufficiently complex communication method and an ability to contemplate; this is what most animals have, some in greater degrees than others.

>> No.11351358

>>11350340
Yes. It is humans that lack consciousness.

>> No.11351382
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11351382

>>11350556
>You need speech to have true consciousness

>> No.11351405

>>11350340
yes they do OP and they can also communicate effectively to their own species and sometimes to other species. They feel emotions, they have ideas, they are in the same audiovisual world as you and me.

But we are sadistic predators so it is okay to murder and eat them. Because nature by design is evil.

>> No.11351408

>>11350556
>You need speech to have true consciousness

wow you should really go back to the last tab you were browsing, anon because that is not the definition of consciousness in any sense of the word.

>> No.11351414

>>11350556
Nah, if you were raised mute you would still have consciousness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments

>> No.11351457

>>11351123
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide

>> No.11351475

>>11350556
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPX7X9YMi94

?

>> No.11351495

>>11350598
Bahahaa!!!!

>> No.11351520

>>11350340
All animals with brains are conscious. Go vegan

>> No.11351568

>>11351520
nope, I like meat

>> No.11351621

>>11351475
That's not speech. Training a dog to push buttons, or a gorilla to sign for what they want is not the same as expressing yourself and communicating. The owner is projecting their own understanding on the dog, and being way too charitable. Notice, it basically only consistently did "outside" Even though there were almost 30 buttons at the end. "Crazy progress!" Right..

Animals just dont have the cognition to abstract new concepts into language and do the necessary self expression and reflection.

>> No.11351907

>>11350340
actually even rocks have consciousness. Though that's just me being autistic.

>> No.11351977

>>11351475
>>11351621
Correct not speech but communication.

>> No.11351987
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11351987

>>11350340
Other humans might not even have consciousness.

https://vitrifyher.com/2020/01/20/why-other-people-might-not-be-conscious/

>> No.11351994

>>11350344
This. Consciousness is more of a buzzword than anything else.

>> No.11352013
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11352013

>>11350340
if everything at its basic form is just a field that spans the entire universe, what if consciousness is also a field that the particles in our brain interact with? The same way that gravity wells form around massive objects, consciousness wells form around intelligent things?

>> No.11352035

>>11351097
Why aren't you?

>> No.11352042

>>11350862
Cool!

>> No.11352054 [DELETED] 

>>11350340
C L A M P E D
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D

>> No.11352118

>>11350604
t. Aristotle

>> No.11352565

>>11351405
>they have ideas
Why haven't they invented anything yet?

>> No.11352572

>>11351987
This survey included 30 fucking people.
Ironically, the fact that a loud clickbait title and such a shitty survey managed to get a thousand more people to act like literal sheep proves their point better than the actual research.

>> No.11352576

>a thousand more people
thousand times more people*

>> No.11352580

>>11351457
None of those are making a conscious decision to stop living, they simply fail to see the dangers of their actions.

>> No.11352597

>>11351115
>Yeah and most animals aren't complicated enough to be sentient.
So are most people
>They have no awareness and only react automatically to outside stimuli.
So do most people
The smartest dog is smarter than the dumbest human

>> No.11352606

>>11352565
Have you?

>> No.11352688

>>11350604
I take my cat hiking in the hills. He follows me for hours. He also single handedly got rid of the neighborhood squirrels, and brought a live crow into the house.

>> No.11353188

>>11352688
I wish other cats were non-faggots like yours.

>> No.11353200

>>11350556
>Dolphins
>Not chimpanzees which literally learned to use American Sign Language.

>> No.11353250

>>11350578
>Sounds like /x/ teir stuff
Go on, anon. Tell us how...

>> No.11353273

>>11350340
Why should I care if any living thing suffers for a while? I'm not being edgy. Please just go ahead and take a crack at why I should care.

>> No.11353274

animals have consciousness, even worms do. full stop. why even such seemingly simple organisms have consciousness is another question.

>> No.11353288

>>11353274
It's the pattern of your words that potentially have meaning, not just stringing them together peppered with shit like "full stop." Eureka. Whether anyone gives a shit if you suffer has to be earned. The question isn't if animals are conscious. It's whether they've earned that you should give a shit. juvenile but unfinished

>> No.11353295

>>11352572
>Beep Boop Bop
ok NPC

>> No.11353317

>>11350340

yes they do. we know birds, mammals and some fish and reptiles have it.

>> No.11353321

>>11353317
and "you" know they're not just reacting how?

>> No.11353324

I used to think animals weren't conscious but the more I observe them the less likely this seems

>> No.11353374

>>11350340
Yes. Animals and humans share the same emotional core.

>> No.11353422

>>11353200
Or crows since they can actually converse and teach each other. Even Prairie Dogs were found to "say" specific things to each other like "black guy white shirt passing by" using a comparison of recordings

>> No.11353443

>>11350556
Consciousness is literally just "experience" or "awareness", you have it backwards amigo.

>> No.11353461

>>11350340
i'd taught raccoons to talk like parrots. they even understood greetings. think what you will of that.

>> No.11353474

>>11353250
What? Our brains are meat computers. is that like macic or something?

>> No.11353486

>>11350862
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhf-d9JCc8k

>> No.11353489

>>11353422
You got some kind of source for that fantastical bullshit? Or should we just take some autistic brainlet at his word

>> No.11353499

>>11353474
You're supposed to explain how consciousness is x-tier, you idiot.

>> No.11353539

>>11353499
How about you explain how it isn't. It is self awareness. Why would people think that animals do not have that? Seems people are amazed as if it is dream walking or remote viewing.

>> No.11353546

>>11353539
>How about you explain how it isn't
Why the absolute fuck would I explain how consciousness is not /x/-tier, you goddamned fucking retard. You claimed that it is /x/-tier. Explain yourself, shitstain.

>> No.11353558

>>11353546
You have trouble with reading or understanding English? I made no such claim. I made an inquiry. It is amusing how you name callers make such fools of yourselves. Oh, I'm so sad! Anon called me an idiot. What if he's right?

>> No.11353580

>>11353489
Here's an article on crows that's probably your speed https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-06/how-crows-recognize-individual-humans-warn-others-and-are-basically-smarter-you/
I read the Prairie Dog thing off plebbit while taking a shit, and I don't feel like trying to dig it up

>> No.11353582

>>11351621
>"the dog mostly said it wanted to go outside so it wasn't real communication"
Here's a thought. You ever consider, bear with me here since this is a wild fucking idea, that most dogs like going outside?

Let me add another thought onto that, alright. What if, like, you wanted something, and, like, you asked for it, and, like, someone else said that you were a poor communicator for doing that. How would you feel about that.

My proper address if you refuse to accept me obliquity calling you an idiot as a proper rebuttal would be that the dog in this showed a level of comprehension that would surprise a lot of people, and that while outside was frequently used there were other combinations that were used as well with several instances that were apparently novel that showed a basic if rudimentary grasp of sentence structure.

>> No.11353583

>>11353582
*obliquely

>> No.11353605

>>11351621
>>11350862
Don't know if this is same video but she also indicates that she is "mad" when the button malfunctioned.

>> No.11353678

>>11353539
>Why would people think that animals do not have that?
Because most animals don't have that.
Imagine being a sponge and having to be aware for the rest of your life.

>> No.11353867
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11353867

>>11353200
>chimpanzees which literally learned to use American Sign Language
And Gorillas and Orangutans.

>> No.11354188

>>11353582
>the dog in this showed a level of comprehension that would surprise a lot of people, and that while outside was frequently used there were other combinations that were used as well with several instances that were apparently novel that showed a basic if rudimentary grasp of sentence structure.
The thing is, it didn't. It pushed buttons and you projected understanding on it.
A sentence is not a thing for the dog. The reason I said the it mostly did "outside" consistently was to show that it was just doing a learned behavior. Calling it speech is just making the term speech totally vapid.

This video, of cherry picked examples from the owner of a dog pushing buttons does not disprove what we already know about the level of language in dogs. Give me an actual peer reviewed article that shows this and ill consider it.

>>11353605
Did it? Or do just you think it did? Its a lot easier to buy that the dog pushed some more or less random sequence than a dog understanding the concept of "mad" and put that into a sentence.
Does it look very happy when it pushed the button for happy? Look into the criticism of Koko the gorilla if you want to read about why this is not good evidence for speech in animals.

>> No.11354204

>>11353678
Not really relevant but I imagine if sponges were self-aware they would be relatively comfortable with their existence as a sponge otherwise they would die of anxiety or not be able to function as a sponge.

>> No.11354317

>>11354188
Explain "Help water outside"

>> No.11354562

>>11354188
Beach button did not work. "Mad" "help" "water" "outside." Seems like a sentence to me. I will look into criticism of koko but, it seems more like that people like you require criticism. We are not speaking. I am just typing a sequence of characters that represent words that i have learned to memic and order in a manner to get my feelings conveyed.

>> No.11354587

>>11354317
>>11354562
It doesn't need to be explained. You need to show that the dog is actually understanding what it is pushing. Not just random/semi random sequences. How many times has the dog pushed totally incoherent sequences that doesn't relate to anything? Of curse some of them will seem coherent by chance.

How do you know it wanted to go to the ocean? It was the owner that said that. The dog just pushed a button. Maybe it just wanted to go outside, maybe it was just a button push. Does it understand that ocean and water(in its bowl) is the same thing? I really doubt this. This video at least does not show any of this. I cant even tell if they have been able to teach the dog more than 2 or 3 words in this video.

>> No.11354598

>>11350340
Absolutely, they mourn the dead and rejoice when happy. Any other explanation is a coping mechanism to rationalize our disregard for sentient life. We’re to busy looking for life on other planets and busy ourselves destroying life on earth.

>> No.11354644
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11354644

>>11350556
>Vocal cords get irreparably destroyed in an accident
>lose consciousness forever

>> No.11355136

>>11354188
>another literal psychotic retard posts his nonsensical rationalizations on 4chan.
wow. so surprising

>> No.11355181

>>11355136
>literal psychotic retard
Jesus .. Is this your dog or something?

I'm the one asking for some scientific rigor here. There is a reason we use double-blind's for things like this. There is so much baseless "understanding" of what the dog wants and does, from fucking buttons.

>> No.11355206

>>11355181
don't you have some novel new drug for depression to test on small animals or something?

>> No.11355214

>>11355206
>Animals can't talk
YOU MONSTER!

Is this twitter? Come on now.

>> No.11355229

>>11354587
True enough. I am sure that some project personality onto animals. I'm no such faggot. I had a dog and noticed that it could deduce an unfamiliar name because the person was unknown to them in a room full of people she met. Once, I was closing the hatch on the car when I noticed her head in the way. She got low and clenched her eyes tight when I said, "watch out" and this wasn't something that I taught her. That was when I started to think that I should give them more credit.

>> No.11355233

>>11355214
you have your green text mixed up.
anyway, i am not on twitter. i refuse to even hit links to twitter that people post, even if it looks like it might be interesting.

>> No.11355260

>>11355229
There is a lot more to how we communicate than just the word we speak. Tone, body language and other context are huge parts too that animals will pick up on. If for example they know you will close the hatch of a car after they go in there.
I'd guess she understood what came next when you said "watch out" and you could have said jibberish and she still would have ducked for the hatch anyway. But I dont know your dog or the specific situation.

Read Clever Hans Effect here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans


Dogs understand us in their own way, but they cant form sentences or get meaning from new combinations of words they understand(like outside or walk). And they are missing abstraction that is very important for our language.

>> No.11355264

>>11350556
Good job getting all those (You)s, bro.

>> No.11355269

>>11355260
>get meaning from new combinations of words they understand
thats your opinion
maybe some have and can

>> No.11355309

>>11355269
Sure, show me a popper studie and ill reconsider. Its not unimaginable for me that this could be possible in some circumstances. Its just not something i have a reason to belive. I'm pretty skeptical Koko could actually do it, and a dog from there is just harder to belive.

>> No.11355892

>>11354587
The context of the clip implies that it was looking at the lacking button for "Beach" and then searching for other buttons that would effectively replace the meaning.

I think you're giving too little credit, but at the same time I have to acknowledge that maybe the dog is just a fucking retard most of the time and just presses random buttons for no reason other than to get attention other than outside and probably play to be charitable to your argument.

I'd love to set up a study where you have a bunch of dogs and you train them on these buttons and then put them in a room together with several batteries of these buttons and see if they can understand commands given by a disembodied voice then communicate with each other using them and preform tasks without stimulation from a human handler. Would that satisfy you that they have a basic understanding of verbal communication or does that not satisfy your definitions?

>> No.11356261

>>11353580
>popsci.com
>I read it off plebbit
Is this bait?

>> No.11356349

>>11355260
Interesting. I had heard a little about this. It is still impressive if dogs understand jibberish and horses understand subconscious body language. I'm too drunk to bother to link but have seen videos of monkeys and birds trained to quickly detect which screen has "most" objects. I also read (in books) that birds were used in factories as quality control for on early transistors and such things.. Evidently, they can see shitty soldiers or something.

>> No.11356357

>>11355260
I don't understand cats but dogs are the same as dumb versions of us.

>> No.11356890

>>11356349
>videos of monkeys and birds trained to quickly detect which screen has "most" objects
They can do more than that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A

>> No.11356987

>>11356890
Respect to chimps. Little fucker was like a machine.

>> No.11357051

my dog seems to practice deception

>> No.11357066

>>11350340
>Do animals have consciousness?
yes

>> No.11357273

>>11356890
I wonder if you can teach a monkey to do that. What do you think is the "evolutionary advantage" of this skill? Or would humans have it if we cared of nothing except winning treats? I know a lot who think that their little children are so smart but a friend and I (each fathers) think that it is easier for toddlers to seem smart, because they have almost nothing in their heads to conflict with the task at hand.

>> No.11357371

>>11357273
Chimps are predators so I assume they would need good spacial memory when jumping from tree to tree and they have to think in 3D. We humans mostly think in 2D and moving around without a frame of reference (i.e. on the ISS where there is no gravity or even floor) is extremely disorienting. I went to a NASA exhibition once and they had an upside down space station module (not quite upside down, more like 135 degrees) and when you go in it it feels like you're tripping.

>> No.11357891

>>11350340
>Do animals have consciousness?
NOFKYO

>> No.11357897

>>11350556
What's speech anyway? Are you saying animals don't communicate with each other?

>> No.11357916
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11357916

A better question is do u think really low IQ races have consciousness like abos and african pygmeis?

Also the average black has the same speech skill as a preteenager from smarter races.

>> No.11358071

>>11350340
conciousness, person, mind, brain are the same thing.